S2 Ep5: Personality of a Tan Wall with Tobin Low
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Before we get going today, I wanted to tell you about another Radiotopia podcast you should be listening to, Song Exploder. Song Exploder is an award-winning show about the creative process behind music. Artists break down one of their songs, letting you hear all the different layers in the recording, from instruments to beats to vocals. And most importantly, they talk about why they made the creative choices they did. Song Exploder is not just for music nerds. It's for anybody who cares about creativity or wants to feel inspired to create something.

It's hosted by Rishi Keshe Hiraway, who you might know from the podcast Home Cooking or the West Wing Weekly. The episodes are short, about 20 minutes each, and my recommendation is to start with an episode featuring an artist you love. And then listen to one with an artist you don't know at all. There are over 250 episodes with guests like Fleetwood Mac, Madonna, Solange, Beats,

Billy Eilish, Phoebe Bridgers, FK Twigs, The Killers, Dua Lipa, and John Batiste, and more. Each episode is really a miniature portrait of an artist and how their creative mind works, with the song as the lens we see them through. It's also a great way to discover new music. It's a different kind of experience to get introduced to a song this way, learning how and why each piece and idea came together before you hear the whole song at the end.

Find your favorite episode of Song Exploder and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts or at songexploder.net. I like that your two options were like, as a non-confrontational person, I would do nothing. But the other option is to just set off a bomb that would ruin everyone. It's the way the mind works. I don't know.

Hi, I'm Kelsey McKinney and welcome to Normal Gossip, the show where we share an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. Before we get into today's excellent gossip, I just want to do a couple of quick reminders. As you know, each season is eight episodes and then two bonus episodes. So we have one bonus episode we're very excited about, but it's a secret. This is

The second bonus episode we need your help for again. We're going to be producing another listener story based episode. And this time we are asking for your drama from niche groups. We're talking clubs, societies, alumni associations, your homeowners groups, your dog walking groups, your seed sharing libraries, your little free library construction groups. We're

We want anything you have on niche drama. The way you may give that to us is you can call the voicemail box at 2679-GOSSIP. But please remember the voicemail box cuts you off after three minutes. Or you can send us an email to normalgossip at defector.com. You can also send voice memos to that email if that's easier for you. Please do not send your gossip to our Instagram DMs because I will lose it.

The other little piece of business we need to do is just remind you that you can become a subscriber. Last week, we released our first extra bonus episode for subscribers, which all subscribers get. And we had our listener guest. It was amazing. I had so much fun. And we're currently in the process of picking our next guest from the subscriber pool. So if you want to be a guest on one of the bonus episodes, please become a subscriber. It really helps us make the show.

Okay, enough business. Today we have with us Tobin Lowe. Tobin Lowe was a producer at Radiolab. He also co-hosted Nancy, a show about the contemporary queer experience, which we really like. And he's also served as a producer on the first season of More Perfect. Tobin is currently an editor at This American Life. Tobin, welcome.

Thank you. I am overjoyed to be here, truly. We are so happy to have you. Can we start off with a classic question, and you can tell me what your relationship is with gossip? I love it. I adore it. It fuels me. I like to call myself a benevolent gossip. Okay. What does that mean to you? It's a very loose definition, but I think it means something like if...

If the gossip is not going to harm someone's life or livelihood in a way that they do not deserve, then... That's a key caveat. Yeah, key caveat. Then I am more than happy to be, like, a receptacle for it, a spreader of it, a sort of, like, joyful gossiper. And I think, like, I think this is a thing that you've talked about on the show before, but, like, there is nothing more endearing...

to like a new person that you're establishing a relationship with.

than to be like, got any good gossip? It's like, you're immediately conspiratorial with that person. You like enter that secret space. And it's so fun. I am all for it. I love it. Do you, Lindsay told us in the last episode that she has been starting off a lot of conversations with just randos by being like, do you have any gossip for me? Is that your entryway? Like, how do you gossip? Who do you gossip with? I feel like

I have done it with strangers. I have done it with strangers. It's such a weird way of saying that. I think it's good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're going to go with it. I have done it with strangers. I feel like... All adventurous women do. Love it. I feel like, especially in journalism circles, I feel like so much of it is the group chats about who's going where and what's happening next.

behind the scenes and all that kind of stuff. So I feel like I'm in a lot of like industry group chats of just like keeping tabs on, on stuff. Oh, and I should also say plug for anyone who loves gossip, like get yourself into a journalism group chat or more specifically get yourself into like a radio producer group chat, because I feel like the requirements of being a radio producer are,

lend themselves extremely well to getting a lot of detail about a rando. And so I feel like because radio producer on any given show that you love is such a catch-all term, you're like part researcher, part reporter, part...

like logistical person who needs to make everything happen. It like lends itself extremely well to somebody dropping in the group chat. Does anyone know anything about this person? Like this weird thing happened? And then everyone answers with like, here's their shirt size. I found it via like do, do, do, do, do, Google, whatever, whatever. Here's their Instagram. Here's a deep cut from their Instagram that tells us this about them. Yeah. I just, I'm like,

It's a really fruitful group to be part of if you love that sort of like living in an insecty way inside of somebody else's life. Why do you need to do that? Like, what is it about your job that requires this kind of like investigative journalism background researching? Yeah.

I don't know if it needs it. I think that part of like, because to be good at the job, you have to kind of like that, that like nosiness. So are you like that in your personal life too? Like if you meet someone at a party, are you like 500 pictures deep in their Instagram? I am. So it's fine to say that you are. I just think like,

Yeah, I mean, I don't want to be that kind of person. But I think sometimes I am. Why? Why don't you want to be that kind of person? Oh, because we like nobody wants to be that person, I think. Or nobody wants to admit to being that type of person. As much as we are all that person. It also gets labeled as like, you don't want to be that.

publicly identified as the person who's like 20 deep on somebody's like into like 2015 Instagram posts. Yeah, there's like nothing scarier than scrolling and you like almost double tap something from like 2014. No greater terror exists. A cold chill just went down my spine. I'm sorry. I didn't mean this is not a horror podcast. It's my bad.

So a lot of people have made a distinction between loving gossip and being a gossip. Do you consider yourself a gossip? Yes. If I'm being honest, I do consider myself to be a gossip. Again, we're trying for benevolent gossip where we're not coming for...

People's lives and livelihoods unnecessarily. Yes. I feel like the best route to getting good gossip is to have a very close extended family. Okay. To be aware of sort of like third cousins twice removed like out here. But like to have the sort of family that talks about the movings of like family that far out.

So what is your like family dynamic? And like, what is happening in your family? Please? Please? My sad small family. We're so poor. So I think this is probably like a thing that a lot of like POC will recognize as like, I am very aware of like, my mom's cousins, my dad's cousins, they're all uncles and aunts. And like, yeah.

cousins who are actually like way removed are just cousins. They're just like part of the family. And so what you have is like this big network of people who are all related to each other. And the, it's like primed for how gossip works in that third cousin over here has a thing happen. They tell their parent about it. And then that parent tells that parent. And then that parent tells that grandparent. And like, and there's a thing where it like filters to you of like this thing happened to such and such cousin. Yeah.

You're at the family reunion like, is it true that your boyfriend hit you with a go-kart? And they're like, no! I mean, to be fair to my family, it's nothing ever salacious, but it has that feeling of just like, of like the way that gossip spreads, it works perfectly for a large extended family that is like aware of each other. And then also alternately, another I feel like child of immigrants experience is like sometimes you're

grandmother will just drop the most insane story you've ever heard about their parents or something like suddenly out of nowhere it'll be like well you know my father had a second family and then went to go live with them and it's like it's so casually dropped and you're like what excuse me and that and that that sort of like family gossip is

And how that functions, I feel like, is a similar mechanism to learning great gossip. Yeah. I'm not a child of immigrants. My family have been extremely white and poor in America for a very long time. But my grandfather also did this to me recently. I was at his house and he was like, oh, this extreme trauma that I saw happen to my father when I was five. And I was like, what? And then I told my mom about it and she was like, oh, I didn't even know that. And I was like, what?

I think it's just like the boomers and above. They just like, they kept every gossip. They kept it all. Yes. Yes. It's all internal. And then it comes out just in little, little spurts.

And the rest of us are like, excuse me? What? This is like a good, really good argument to like go interview your great grandparents or grandparents and they are still alive and be like, who was the first person you kissed? Yes. Tell me. Hurry. So today's gossip is about work. We're doing some work gossip. Have you ever had to work with someone that you like just did not get along with?

I mean, I'm alive. So yeah. So you're ready to just like relate entirely to having a work enemy, which is like the opposite of work wife, I guess. It's like your work ex-husband. Well, so this is interesting. I feel like, I mean, I'll find out from hearing the story, but I feel like I've had people who are quietly my work enemy, but I don't know if they knew they were my work enemy. What do you mean? Because I'm not...

I don't know that I'm confrontational in that way to sort of register, uh,

I mean, you also are good. Anyone who works with me is now going to be so paranoid. You also are like good, like professional and good at your job. So obviously you're not like, fuck you, buddy. Like, I hate my work. I hate working with you. Like you're capable of a level of professionalism that means that you can also be like, ugh. Yes. Thank you for framing that in the correct adult way.

Yeah, I gotcha. I gotcha. I know that you don't hate all of your coworkers. Right. You can tell them that you don't hate them now. Don't worry. I guess also, like, I feel like I have worked with people who have openly registered their dislike for a coworker and their enmity has been on display and I don't understand that. It's dangerous. Yeah. Okay, well, would you like to do some gossip? Please. Okay.

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So today's gossip comes from a friend of a friend. It's about working. Okay. Our main character today is named Kira. She's 21 years old. She's a college student at a university that's like right outside of mid-sized city. Okay. And she has a part-time job at a national coffee chain downtown. Uh-huh. Is it...

I'm going to plead the fifth. Okay, fair enough. For the first two years of having this job, she like woke up early, drove 30 minutes to the store, opened, and then left at the end of the morning shift to get back to campus for her afternoon classes. Okay.

Okay. So this semester, she has some class she needs to graduate at 9 a.m., so her whole schedule has gotten fucked up, right? And now she needs to work nights, which is usually from like 6 p.m. to midnight when the coffee store closes. Oh, man. Poor Kira. Plus like time for cleanup. Exactly. This would be fine, totally fine, except that the night shift manager is this girl named Bailey that Kira does not like.

Uh-huh. Okay. It's not that Bailey is like a bad person or even that she's a really bad manager. She's a good manager, but she's in her late 20s. She's a supervisor and she has the personality of like a tan wall. When Kira first meets her, she's like, oh my God, haha, so cute that your name is Bailey and you work in a coffee shop. And Bailey's like, what? Yeah.

Oh, no. She's just giving her nothing. And Kira's like, you know, you can put Bailey's in your coffee. It's funny. Bailey, coffee shop. And Bailey's like, oh. No. I don't like Bailey either. I'm sorry to you, Bailey. But are you a Sex and the City watcher? I am. Yes, of course I am. I love drama. Do you remember the episode where Carrie ends up at lunch with her Vogue editor? Yes. And at some point she just stops and she's like,

I'm working my ass off here. You got to give me something. I think about that all the time with like people like, like Bailey, where you're like, sometimes you're just like, I'm working my ass off here. Give me something. Please one drop of interest. Yes, exactly. The vibe Bailey on top of this takes her job at the national coffee chain, like way too seriously. Like she keeps track of when people are late. She starts a stopwatch for people's 15 minute breaks.

She's like the type of person who will not mix work and play, even though this is like an hourly wage. So she like won't go out to drinks with coworkers after shifts. She doesn't come when she's invited to birthday parties. But part of this is because she's like an extremely private person. Right. So after like three years, Kira doesn't even know if she has any siblings. Kind of private. Gotcha. Okay. And everyone else at this job is like us, just like throwing their secrets out into the ether. Gotcha. Okay. Yeah.

So Kira's best friend at work named Hope has worked the late shift a lot. And she basically warns Kira. She's like, Bailey is fine. And she will leave you alone as long as you just do your job and show up on time. Okay. Easy enough. Exactly. Kira's like, great. I can do that. Her first day on the night shift, Hope is working what is like a mid shift. So when Kira starts, Hope is still there.

Right. Okay. At the coffee shop, this is important. As I understand it, there are four places you can be if you're working. You can be at the drive-thru window. You can be at the register for the in-store customers. You can be at the espresso machine, like making drinks, or you can be in the back. Okay.

Okay. This is the stage. Okay, got it. The back of the coffee shop, like you know what the drive-thru window is, the register, the espresso machine, I assume you have a good like vision of in your head. Yes, yes, I can see it. The back of the coffee shop for your vision is just like more supplies. It's refrigerators. It's like the office for shift managers. It's where you like put your backpack, right? It's all of that crap. Okay. Okay.

It's important to know these positions because the company has a rule that someone has to be out on the floor with eyes on the store at all times. Okay, makes sense. So like in the night shift, if there's only two of you working, like if Kira and Hope are working together and they need to do dishes, it doesn't matter if it would go faster for two of them to go back into the back to do dishes. One of them has to stay out front.

Gotcha. Okay, okay. So Hope tells Kira on her first day on the night shift, she's like, here's the deal. The best move on the night shift is to try and get bar duty where you're watching the inside of the store. Because then you can like clean the machines and the floor, but you don't have to like take out the trash in the bins. Yes. And I imagine coffee shop at night.

It's like, it's not the same as getting slammed in the morning. Yes. On bar duty. Exactly. Okay. Kira's like, great tip. Thank you. But she's also like really nervous her first day because she knows that Bailey fired someone last year for incompetence. Okay. And it's like kind of rude.

of rare to get fired if you didn't steal something at like these kind of stores. Right. And so Kira's like, I'm stressed. And Hope is like, no, the thing with Bailey that you just really have to understand is like, she will protect you and take care of you. The person she fired needed to be fired. Like they were bad. Oh, interesting. So Hope is a little bit team Bailey. A little bit. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Interesting. Kira's like, you know, if my work wife is willing to vouch for her, fine. Yeah.

Her first night is fine. It's a little boring. Kira's like trying to chat. Bailey is just not having it. Kira's like trying to get conversation going, right? She's like working really hard. She's like, if you could go anywhere in the world, where would you want to go? And Bailey's like, I would go to Disney World, but then just like would not elaborate. Yeah.

Oh, I feel like we just unearthed a very important detail, which is like Bailey's perhaps a Disney adult. That's what we're getting at. Okay. Yes. A lot of information comes with that. Yes. It's like a whole funnel of information, which is like, it's fine to be a Disney adult, but could you at least show some enthusiasm so that we can like have a conversation about it in this terrible coffee shop? Yeah.

Next day, Kira is working the drive-thru window for her shift and Hope is working the espresso bar when in waltzes Oliver. Is there going to be a sound effect there about Oliver? It's like a major person just entered. Okay, keep going. Sorry. Stop producing. Hope's like, Hope is like, okay, so they're all wearing headsets, right? This is important. Like they're all wearing headsets and they can talk to each other. So Hope into her headset as Oliver walks in is like, oh no. Yeah.

Kira looks over and there is Oliver like putting on his apron and Kira's like, ugh. No. From the back, they hear Bailey over her headset be like, you two be nice to Oliver. Hope pulls her mic down and leans over to Kira and is like, lol, Bailey's not even out here to see Oliver come in. She just knows that like we're upset because he's here. What's the deal with Oliver? We're going to get into it. Oliver. Oh my god.

Is a barista also. Okay. He's one of those guys who like always looks like he's still asleep. Okay. He like doesn't own a hairbrush probably. Like his nails are like too long. He's like this kind of guy. Okay. And he's what they call a green bean in this company, which means that he's really new. Okay. Okay. Okay. Coffee baby. Exactly. Except that he's like not that new.

Kira doesn't like Oliver because once when they were working the morning shift together, she casually asked after his girlfriend, whose name is Plum. Okay. And Oliver like bristled and he was like, how do you know my girlfriend's name? And Kira was like, one, her name is Plum. And two, you told me. Okay.

And then Oliver was like, well, we broke up. So thanks for reminding me. Oh, no. And Kira was like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry that you broke up. Like, why did you break up? And Oliver was like, she wasn't good at hiking. Oh, no, Oliver. Kira was like, didn't you meet hiking? And Oliver was like, yeah.

Say it. Say it. Kira is just working her ass off to relate to these people. And they are – she's being met with a wall everywhere. She's getting nothing. She's getting nothing. So Kira just, like, believes that Oliver is, like, one, annoying, like, kind of a womanizer maybe. And just, like, also does not seem aware that his colleagues are, like, people that he should be, like, trying to help. Like, he will leave people out on the floor drowning, right? Oh, no. Okay. Okay.

Not that that would really matter because he is genuinely an awful barista. Like he's been at the store for about seven months, which should be plenty of time to get the hang of it. But Oliver has like atrocious spatial awareness, which you can imagine is rather important if you are working in a tight space with a lot of liquids. Right. Right. What I know of like Oliver,

said coffee chain at the busiest times is it is like a frantic run around behind the bar to like get all the orders out etc etc yes

So everyone who works with Oliver ends up with like bruises because he like doesn't check doors before he flings them open. Like if you work a shift with him, you have to like plan to go home and shower because he just like drops things and then they like splatter all over you. Like once Kira had to go home after work instead of to a party because he dropped a whole quad shot iced latte just like down the front of her shirt.

I guess my immediate question, and maybe we're getting to it, is like, if somebody else was, quote unquote, rightfully fired for negligence, like, why is Oliver still there? This is a question that Kira and Hope are constantly asking. Yes. They're like, what is this guy doing?

He doesn't know like there are like words in a kitchen, right? Like you're like behind or corner, right? To signal like where you are or at like the worst, you would put like two fingers on someone's shoulder. Like you would do at a party to be like, I'm coming behind you. Don't turn around. Oliver does not do this. He just like shoves through. Okay. Oh man. But Oliver for a long time has been on the morning shift. So he has been with Kira, but not with Bailey. Okay.

So Hope and Kira are like, Bailey is going to eat this man alive. Oh, Bailey hasn't interacted with Oliver. Okay. Yes. Great.

Sure enough, she does eat him alive. Like his first shift, she is so fucking critical of him. She's like, you're doing your job wrong. Like, what is the point in you even being here? Like, why can't you do this? To the point that Kira is like, Jesus, like he's a, this is a coffee shop. Like he's a part-time employee. Like maybe chill for like one second. Do you think that she should like intervene immediately?

Into the scenario where Bailey is just constantly rebuking Oliver, who she does not like. Sure. If it gets into a territory of abuse or like really truly too far, like, yes, intervene. But also in defense of Bailey, I have been in the situation where...

the powers that be or whatever let somebody slide for far too long. And sometimes all you need is the one person who's willing to

to like lay down the law. Exactly. And so like, in this moment, like, it does sound like she's going too far, we could pull it back. But the energy behind what Bailey is doing, like, I'm a little bit team Bailey in this moment. And I kind of want Kira within reason to just sit back and let it play out. Also, this is not really Kira's like, it's not hers to fix. Yeah, the other thing like we're not in a territory yet where she like,

needs to defend anybody. Yeah. So Kira's like, I get paid not a lot of money. Oliver is a nightmare to me. So I am not going to like rush to his defense, but also this is like making the vibe really bad of you just like yelling at him. And now I'm not having fun. So I'm going to like take a distraction approach. Right. She's like, we should be having fun. Like the whole point in a job like this is that like, you can kind of fuck around a little bit if you believe that,

Right. Makes sense. And so she's like, I heard a really fun question the other day that we could all answer. And they're like, okay, what? What? What do you need to say? Wait, so Kira's like, I'm going to play this party game with everyone? Yeah. Kira, no, no, no, no, no. I just feel like you already know that both of them do not play ball with this kind of thing.

What are you inviting? Okay, what question? She's so optimistic. She's like, what is the biggest crime that you think you could get away with? Bailey and Oliver both, without missing a beat, are like tax evasion. Wow. Okay. They went in hot.

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the crimes you could choose tax evasion is the most boring one is this a meet cute are they are oliver and bailey did they say tax evasion and then did they look at each other and and she sort of like straightened her hair and was like oh i've never heard anyone have that answer

Okay. On our break, Kira is like texting Hope and she's like, I hate them. They're so boring. There is no drama. I need like intrigue. My job is like very like hands on. So I need to be like emotionally or mentally like interested in something else while I'm doing it. Incredibly relatable to me. Okay. Yes.

For a few weeks, things are like this. They're just like boring. The shop is slow. The drive-through doesn't take enough time. So Kira has to end up doing those like terrible organizational projects that you have to do when you work minimum wage, like restocking back syrups and like organizing straws and shit, right? She like even checks the receipt paper to be like, is this running low? Something no one has ever done before. Yeah.

She's so bored and she's so miserable. And she's like, I miss my old shift. Like, I want to go back to the mornings. Maybe I should just quit college. This is terrible. I hate it here. Okay. But then one Friday night, a few weeks later, things are like unreasonably busy. Yeah.

It starts off with a few, like, complicated orders that slow down the line. And then there's, like, a line of 10 cars in the drive-thru. And then there's, like, a line of 15 cars in the drive-thru. Right? And so it's just, like, building. Bailey had warned her that she needed to, like, do the paycheck stuff for them. So she would be in the office. And Kira is like, fck, because she needs help. And the only person to help her is Oliver. Fck.

Oh, boy. Okay. So she gets on the headset and she's like, Oliver, hello. Things are getting really busy up here. Can you please come help me? There's no response. Where's Oliver? Kira's like, whatever. Like, this isn't my first rodeo. I can do this. She's like, mad, right? Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Ten minutes later, Oliver comes, like, strolling back in. And Kira's like, did you not hear me, like, calling for help over and over again over the intercom? Yeah.

And Oliver's like, oh, was it busy or something? And Kira's like, yeah, it was. And Oliver's like, well, it seems fine now. Oliver. Oliver, Oliver, Oliver. Okay. Kira's like, yeah, it's fine because I handled it. Can I ask a question? Please. Where did Oliver walk out of? From the back. From the back. Where Bailey was? Mm-hmm.

is this heading where I think it's heading? I didn't keep going. Kira's like, were you on a break or something? Like, where were you? And Oliver's like, yeah, I was on a break. And Kira's like, that's fine. Like you're allowed to be on a break, but like, you should tell me when you're going to take a break. So then I know where you are. So that if I need help, we can like work as a team. Okay. Kira's texting Hope on her break. Right. She's like, I hate him. Everything is awful. This is the worst day of my life. Hope is like, I don't know. Should you like talk to Bailey about it? And Kira's like, no,

The thing is, I'm like, not a narc. I'm not trying to like blow up Oliver's life. I think like, I'll talk to him and maybe that'll just fix it. Uh-huh. Okay. Right? So she's like, be better to Oliver. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But then the next week it happens again. Okay. It's only ever 10 minutes, so it's not the end of the world that things keep getting busy during Oliver's break, but he never keeps his headset on. Okay. Yeah.

So she's texting Hope about it. And Hope is like, why doesn't Bailey just help you? And Kira's like, you know what? That's a good fucking question. And then she starts noticing it. Over a couple weeks when she's working shifts with Bailey and Oliver, there are consistent 10 or 15 minute stretches, sometimes when things are slow, but sometimes when they are not, that both Bailey and Oliver will be in the back room and not responding to their headsets. Oh my God. I don't know.

I was just joking before, but okay, cool, cool, cool. Look at you. Yeah, you're just omniscient. Then she starts noticing that Bailey's like in an unusually good mood. She's like not using her stopwatches for breaks anymore or like making them do extra organizing tasks. And Kira is like darting her eyes between Bailey and Oliver and she's like, hmm. It's happening. It's going down.

thoughts, feelings? Do you think Kira should put this into her suitcase of secrets? Like, what should she do with this information? Oh, I feel like

If the boss is happier and letting things go and letting things slide, like, I don't know. Like, sure, there's, like, rules about workplace relationships to be aware of and whatnot. But a part of me is like, right now, at least in this moment, it's a little bit win-win for everyone. Aside from that 10 minutes where she, like, gets slammed by herself. Like, this seems like maybe a great place for things to be for the moment. Yes. Yes.

That is literally exactly the conclusion Kira comes to. She's like, you know, the company has weird, like very clear rules on the fact that you can't date your coworkers, like even at the same level. But like one, who cares? And two, no one is annoying me. I'm being left alone. I can do whatever I want out here. Yeah. Seems fine. Yeah. You take those 15 minutes and you live your life. Exactly. Yeah.

The next week, though, something happens. The cars are lining up in the drive-thru and there are people inside the store. So she's having to work the window and the register and the espresso bar. It is a shit show and Kira is the only one out on the floor. So she's on the headset like, help. Hello. Someone come help me. There is no response.

She's like losing her mind. She's taking orders on the headset and over the counter. She's making drinks and she's dropping them off. She's taking money. It's like she's on a stationary bike that is chained to the ground and also the room is on fire. She is losing it. Okay. Oh no. There is syrup on her face. She is covered in coffee grounds. Her visor has whipped cream on it. Her hands are like shaking. She's like, I need help out here. No one has a response. Oh my God. Okay. Okay. Okay.

What does she do? I feel like there's, you go to the door and you give a strong knock and you give, you give a chance for whatever monkey business is happening to conclude that

I worry for Kira that she's going to go do a barge in and see things that she doesn't want to see. So I'm going to say like if I were to give her advice in this moment, give a strong knock, a strong like stuff is happening out here. Let them let them gather themselves. And return to you. And return to that. That would be my piece of advice. Okay, great advice. Little piece that you forgot is that someone has to stay on the floor.

Oh, I feel... So she can't go back there. No! Okay. So she, like, and the back room has, like, a ton of, like, shelving and shit because it's all the stock. So it's not like she can just, like, peek her head in there and be like, you two, come out here. So she does kind of do what you said, which is she goes near the back door, back room, and, like, opens the door and is like, someone needs to come out here and help me, right? Is, like, yelling into the back room. Gotcha. No one comes to help her. Okay.

No. She's sprinting from the espresso machine to the drive-thru window to the cashier. There are little like steel milk steaming buckets everywhere. There are just like lines of syrup on the counter. The ground is like covered in chocolate. There's a roll of her seat paper like plastered to the floor. Kira is like out of breath. Her arms hurt and she's very, very mad. Rightfully so. My God. About 20 minutes later, the rush has calmed down.

And about five minutes after that, out walk Bailey and Oliver together. Oh, they're getting sloppy. Oh, they're getting sloppy. I feel like we're at a fork in the road in this story, where either it is a romantic tryst, or are they engaging in tax evasion together? Yeah.

Did they figure out a grift together on this coffee shop? And like every break is like them secretly taking a little off the top or cooking the books or something. Honestly, that is giving the two of them way too much credit for like the ability of intrigue that they have. Yeah, true, true, true, true. What is your like move here? You're Kira, you're standing in a destroyed national coffee chain. Yeah.

And your boss and your terrible coworker have just deigned to return after a 20 minute break. I feel like my, as a non-confrontational person, my move would probably be to take it on the chin and keep it moving. If I were a more confrontational person, this would be the perfect moment to deploy. I know what's going on here. I know that you take your breaks together and it is royally screwing me.

And perhaps we can continue this arrangement, but like not during the busy times anymore. I'm saying blackmail. Go to blackmail. Yeah, you're saying straight to blackmail, like express train to Blackville land. Perhaps. One could. I like that your two options were like, as a non-confrontational person, I would do nothing. But the other option is to just set off a bomb that would ruin everyone. It's the way the mind works. I don't know.

Kira is like, she's too mad to be like reasonable. She is furious. She's like, did you not hear me? Why were your headsets off? You abandoned me. And they're both like, what do you mean? And she's like, come fucking look. And they see the like absolute disaster of the behind the counter zone. And they're like, oh, sorry, we must have missed that.

And she's like, yeah, you must have missed it because I came to the door and yelled and neither of you came. Oh, my God. And Bailey's like, we didn't hear you. And Kira's like, cool. I'm going home. Have fun cleaning this up. Bye. And she goes home. Good for Kira. Good for Kira. So she's like, this is a mess. I'm so fucking mad. But also, this is like a little bit spicy. Yeah. A little spicy. Spicy.

So she pulls out her phone while she's in the front seat, like picking her music to drive home. And she sends a voice memo to a group chat that she has with Hope and another of their friends from the like morning shift, a teen named Aisha. Okay. Immediately, Aisha is like, wait, this happened to me last week with them.

Okay. Okay. What happened to her also? Okay. Hope is like, oh my God, what? No way. She's like, this cannot be possible. Bailey hates bad coworkers. And Oliver is like the worst coworker that exists. And Aisha is like, lol, imagine having sex with Oliver. He probably doesn't even know where mouths are. And everyone is like, lol. Solid burn, Aisha. Solid burn.

But obviously, this is just suspicion. Right. Right? Uh-huh. The group is now out for what every group chat wants, confirmation. Of course. The group chat is like, what else could it be? They're like, right, they could be fucking, but she could also be giving him remedial lessons since he can't use the espresso machine. Oh, that's very optimistic. She could just be keeping him out of the way so he doesn't drop stuff. Right. He could be being fired. God, I hope he's being fired. Mm-hmm.

The next day, Kira comes into work and she's like, do you want to talk about last night to Bailey? And Bailey's like, what about last night? And Kira's like, what? And Bailey's like, don't worry about it. And Kira's like, okay, I assumed that you were going to be really fucking mad because I stormed out in the middle of my shift. But sure, I'll take it. Fine.

Bailey isn't mad. Bailey that whole night is like very nice to her. She helps her on the floor. No one abandons her. Kira is like, this is great. I love not being abandoned, but this is really bad for my confirmation of you maybe sleeping together, which is what I'm now in pursuit of. Right. Right. Okay. The next day, Aisha picks up a closing shift and

She texts the group chat and she's like, you know, it took me a little bit to get out of the parking lot because I had to call my mom back or something. And before I left, I saw Oliver climbing into the front seat of Bailey's car. They left together. Hope is still like, that's not enough. Like their apartments are near each other. It could just be a ride home from work.

But then the next day, Hope during her mid shift is there with Oliver and Bailey as she watches Oliver place two fingers onto Bailey to get by her something he never does. And Bailey like leans in to his touch. Oh my God. Oliver gets like switched to the register partway through his shift.

And it's like, you know, when you have work register, how you have to like put in your number to open it. Oliver, of course, like does not ever remember his number. And Bailey's like, I can put it in for you. Don't worry, Oliver. Oh, they're not even being slick at this point. The group chat is like, this is the best day of our life. Illicit love affair between two people we don't like. Who cares if you're getting abandoned during your shift? Like this is it.

That's amazing. Can I just say also, the way you described it, like the two finger moment tapping, it gives me the feeling of like at the end of The Usual Suspects, when he abandons, sorry if I'm spoiling it, you've had enough time to see it. Yeah, it's plenty of time. When he abandons the limp and you have that moment, it's like, it was him all along. Just cinematically, I'm imagining the two finger tap as just like, he knew.

The full widescreen. Yeah, it zooms in. And on top of all this drama, which they're all loving, Bailey is still in a good mood, which means everyone's getting longer breaks. Everyone's doing the bare minimum. Everybody's leaving early but getting paid for the whole shift. They're like, we love it. This is great. Everything would be perfect if Oliver were competent at his job at all. Right. But he's not. Right. Right.

On every shift, Oliver is creating some kind of havoc. He's dropping whole gallons of milk on the ground. He's handing customers the wrong drink. He's not cleaning off the steamer. So it's like all caked with milk. He's bumping into people. It is like literally untenable to work behind the bar with him. Oh, man. Okay. Okay. So the group chat is like, we don't we don't know what to do about this. What do you think that they should do?

Oh man, this one's a harder call because it's like, it's sort of like six of one half a dozen of another. It's like, do you maintain the status quo and enjoy the benefits of everything? Or do you pursue some avenue to blow it up so that you don't have to work with Oliver anymore? Right.

It sounds like he's a headache enough that I would go the route of trying to blow it up in some way. He would. I think so. It sounds like the benefits don't outweigh the cons. And that's the thing that, like, this friend of a friend made really clear is that, like, the worst part of this job is dealing with customers. Like, it's not any of the franticness. It's people coming in and being like, I asked for a half-calf and this tastes like a full calf. Yeah. And you're like, well, babe, I don't know what to tell you. Like...

They taste the same. I mean, I don't think an extra break can make up for that being your like every minute experience if Oliver's working.

The group chat in the meantime is like growing, right? They're like adding other people to the group chat. Uh-huh. And everyone is like, nobody fucking snitch. We're having fun. Leave it. Like grow up. Oh. Deal with Oliver. Just like get him out of your way. It'll be fucking fine.

Are there people in the group chat who don't work with Oliver but are enjoying the benefits of a happier Bailey? Extremely, yes. Okay. And so that's why you have people. Oh my God, the levels. Couple weeks later, Kira is like on the drive-thru again. Hope is at the espresso machine. They're still on the midship, so Bailey hasn't come in yet.

And Kira is just like, I'm losing it. Like I had to work with Oliver yesterday. He was just an absolute nightmare. Like, I don't know how long I can do this anymore. She's saying this into the headset, right? Because she's talking to Hope. And she's like, Oliver is just making me so crazy. He can't do his job. Whenever I think about him, I just want to vomit. And Hope is like, it is ridiculous. Like he's late today. I just don't know when he's going to get here. But I know that like when he gets here, he's going to make my life awful. Yeah.

And Kira's like, oh, I know. And Hope is like, it's just like it's even worse when Bailey is here. Like he just gets away with stuff. And like even the green beans don't get away with the kind of shit that he gets away with. And then they hear the shift manager's radio click on. No, no, no, no, no. Okay. It is Bailey. She has come in early for her shift. Bailey is like, I don't think I'm too hard on the green beans. And Kira and Hope are like fucking.

They're looking at each other in the front with like eyes just huge. As Bailey begins to destroy Oliver.

She is saying way meaner things than either of them said. She's like, he's incompetent. I don't even know if he's teachable. You know, I tried to help him learn to use the steamer machine last week and he almost burnt my hand. Like on top of that, he doesn't even listen. She is just like on and on and on. Kira and Hope's eyes are like swimming pools. Oh my God.

She's like overcompensating for getting caught, is my theory. They're like, what the fuck? Like, what do you do with this? I don't... Oh, man. But well, do you know how they say sometimes that like the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference? Yeah. I think that's actually a quote from Frasier. Whatever.

You know, as the great prophet said once. Yeah, as the philosopher Fraser Crane once said. To me, it's not surprising that she has access to big feelings about him if they are also carrying out a tryst. Okay. To me, there's like something like,

I don't know. There's something like a little bit confirming about her going off on him. Okay. So the group chat is like fully divided, right? Like Grand Canyon divided on what this means. Like half of it is like they broke up. Oh, I didn't even consider. Okay. The other half is like she's trying to cover her ass. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They are fighting. The group chat, it's full of fighting. Okay. Oliver isn't on the night shift the next night or the night after that.

But two nights later, he's at the front with Kira. And Kira is like, it is time for me to ask about Bailey. And she's like, oh, you know, I was talking to Bailey the other day on my shift. And before she can even finish, Oliver is like, I don't want to talk about her. So Kira is like, hmm, something happened. But what? Feels a little reminiscent of how he got when he was talking about Plum. Sure does. Only once in the next two weeks do they disappear together for 20 minutes.

Oh, man. But they seem like kind of upset when they return. Okay. Working with them has become even worse than before because they are fighting the whole time. Kira cannot catch a break. Bailey is always yelling at Oliver and Oliver is still dropping things. And Kira is like, my life is so unfair. Like, I don't know what's going on. No one will tell me the gossip. And I'm getting milk spilled on me all the time. And my boss is mad.

It's a week of this. Just like misery. When on Friday, Bailey is carrying a giant bucket of mop water and Oliver backs into her not looking where he's going and knocks the whole thing over. No, no, no, no. Oliver is like apologizing, but Bailey is like, whatever, Oliver. This is, I, man, I worried about this for Kira. That like the flip side is when they break up, it was going to be hellish for everyone. Mm-hmm.

So what is the group chat now thinks that they are they team breakup now? The group chat is like slowly shifting to team breakup. But there are still people that are like, I don't know, they like both of them are just so like bland and weird that it is like impossible for us to like, read what's happening here. Yeah, yeah. Right? Like, why hasn't Bailey fired him? Right? If they've broken up? Right? Right.

I mean, there's part of me too that's like, from what I've been told, they also seem perhaps too bland to carry on and act. To like go all in. Yes, exactly. And the sort of like, we're going to put on a ruse and fool all these people. Like, oh man. The next day, Kira is working her mid-shift. Hope and Bailey are there. It's super busy, so Bailey is working the espresso machine. Mm-hmm.

They're there working, just like doing their thing. They have a fun playlist on. Everyone's having a good time. When in walks Oliver, it is not his shift. He is in exercise clothes. He looks very sweaty. And with him is a girl. And she is very tall and lanky. And she's wearing one of those exercise dresses. Okay. And the girl is like looking at the bulletin board listings.

Kira is like basically wearing binoculars at this point, right? She is like 100% tuned in. She's at the register. So she's like, well, it makes sense that this girl would go look at the bulletin board because Bailey is right here at the espresso machine. Oh, my God. Oliver comes up to the counter and he puts in his order. Kira's like, hi, how are you? And he's like, oh, we just went for a hike nearby. So I just like wanted to swing by and grab us drinks. And Kira's like, oh, that's great. Like, so happy for you. Good to see you.

In her head, she's like, one, there are no hikes near here. This is a downtown coffee shop. Two, us. What kind of chess game is Oliver playing? I don't know. Kira like puts in his employee discount, right? She can see Bailey like stiffening on the machine this whole time this is happening. But her face is like full smile, right? Perfect customer service smile. Oliver is like, can I get this drink or whatever? And then he's like, babe, what do you want? What?

Oliver, Oliver, Oliver, Oliver. The girl like comes trotting over and she's like, can I get this like multi shot drink with whip that has like 17 syrups in it, please? And Kira's like, yeah, of course you can. What's the name for the order? She says, looking right at the girl. Oh, the girl says, plum. Plum.

First of all, A plus work, Kira. That is the kind of shit that is just like, it's so subtle, but it's information gathering. It's so good. So like, A plus work to her. Love that Plum is back in the picture. Very here for that. Also, does it surprise me at all that this absolute C plus of a man was able to rebound with some other girl? Like, no, that does not surprise me. So like...

The audacity does surprise me, though. I can't believe Plum is back. Wait, did Plum ever leave? Great question. So, okay, so she says Plum. Oliver's like shooting daggers with his eyes, right? Because he sees what she did by being like, what's the name? Kira's like, got it, Plum. She writes Plum on the cup.

In her headset, she can hear Hope at the drive-thru be like, are you fucking kidding me? Plum, his ex-girlfriend Plum? Plum who is not good at hiking? Meanwhile, Bailey is making her like extremely complicated drink. And over the radio, they hear Bailey be like, I cannot believe this.

Kira is taking more orders. So she like misses a little bit what happens next. But apparently Bailey put the first drink on the counter and called Oliver's name, not Plum's and handed him his drink. And Plum was like, oh my God, that's so weird. She knows your name. And Bailey was like, what? And Plum was like, yeah, like, how do you know his name? Like I gave y'all my name. Does he come here a lot or something? And Bailey's like, no, babe, he works here.

And Plum's like, what? And Bailey's like, yeah, he's a barista. Like he's off today, but that's how I know him. And Plum is like, you told me you were in med school. No. Oliver is like so mad. He's like steam coming out of his ears, glaring at Bailey. Bailey's like, oh no. Oops. Here's your drink. Goodbye. Plum and Oliver go like storming out. Everyone is like, what the fuck?

What do you do? What would you like to do with this information that you have gathered? First of all, part of me is like, what did Oliver think was going to happen? Like, he thought this was a brilliant power move. Yes. He thought he was flaunting plum in front of Bailey. No. No problem. If she doesn't even know that you work as a barista, why would you bring her into the lion's den? Yeah.

With co-workers who don't like you for varying degrees. Like, it's just... Yes. Oliver thought he was playing chess. He was playing checkers. Yeah. And he just, like... He was playing, like, tic-tac-toe. He was not even close. No.

No, no. Okay, so swing and a miss Oliver. What does Kira do? I feel like as much as Bailey has been either a non-entity or a headache, there's part of me that's just like full team Bailey at this point. Like part of me is just like, you got burned. She did get burned. You got burned pretty bad. And also you handled it very like you did some expert moves handling it and handling your business. Yes.

There is part of me that's like a little bit compassionate to Bailey at this moment. I'm wondering if it'll be like a unifying thing for them. Probably not. But that would be sort of my feeling, I think. Yeah. So Kira and Hope are kind of like, are you okay? Like, do you need to take a break? We can handle the espresso machine. Even though it's a rush, it'll be fine. Yeah. And Bailey's like, I'm fine. I do not want to talk about this. Okay. And they're like,

Okay. But in their hearts, they're like, no, terrible, awful. We must know. They get off their shift immediately. Kira and Hope are like sending voice memos into the group text with all the other employees. They're like, you will not believe what is fucking going on here. Everyone is like, it is time to become the FBI. Okay.

All the coworkers are like Googling, right? It's exactly what you were talking about earlier. They're like pulling up tax things. They're like pulling up people's like residential addresses, right? They've got like Plum's high school's like Facebook group open, right? Like it's like a whole thing. Here they find some extra information. They learn that Oliver told someone else in their group that Plum broke up with him. Okay. Not that he broke up with Plum because she's bad at hiking. Okay.

They scroll back on Plum's Instagram and they see like three weeks ago, the side of Oliver's arm. I love this. I love this shit. Okay, keep going. Yes. Yeah. And like someone's like, this is Oliver's arm and everyone's like, no, it's not. And then they're like cross referencing with his Instagram and they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is the same watch.

Right. Like they like are doing, you know, like string on the wall. Yes. Yes. Yes. Love it. So they're like interesting. So he was with Plum three weeks ago and two weeks ago is when things started getting weird between them. Okay. The messages are coming in really quickly. Everyone is like yelling in the group text. A few people are saying like it just never made any sense to me that they were together in the first place. Uh-huh.

One person is like, well, you know how we always get emails from corporate that no one reads? And everyone's like, yeah. And they're like, look at this one from a couple of weeks ago. And the one from a couple of weeks ago that no one read has a whole section about inter-employee relationships. Did they try to go public? So together as a team, they come up with two theories that I now present to you. Okay. The first is that Oliver broke up with Bailey to get back together with Plum.

The second is that Bailey ended the affair because she was like afraid of losing her job and or running afoul of corporate business.

Please weigh in on these theories. Tell me which one you think is right. Do you have another theory you'd like to add? So the first one is that he just broke up with her to get back with Plum. Yes. And that perhaps she then talked to corporate about their relationship and that's why that email came through or something, some version of that. I'm going to say that this guy has been so dumb throughout and so like not...

calculating in a way that makes any sense. I'm going to say he never broke up with Plum and was doing a double life kind of thing.

And then I'm going to say Bailey ended it. Okay. And then he got mad that he wasn't able to keep up the double ruse. And so he thought he would pull a power play and bring in Plum. That is my theory, is that Plum was always in the picture. That doesn't fly in the face of any of the details, right? No. I think, I think they've, I don't think they broke up. That's a good theory.

One disappointing thing about this gossip is that we don't know the right answer, but I do have one more piece for you. Okay. Okay. There is one more thing. Okay. So this is like all lost in the dark, right? They're like, it could be either of those things. Bailey's so fucking private that she won't tell anyone. Oliver is now like dating Plum.

He like transfers stores so we can't get any more information out of him. Okay. But following him on Instagram, people start to like kind of come to where you came from, where they're like, it seems like maybe they were on a break or like she was just not around as much, but like they never really were fully broken up maybe. Uh-huh. There's one more thing. Oh no. A couple months later, Aisha is scrolling on her TikTok. Okay.

And you know how sometimes when you're on your For You page, it'll show you someone who's like in your contacts, but that you don't follow? Yes. So it has a little like from your contacts thing. Ayesha sees this video and immediately sends it to the group chat because the video was posted by Bailey. It is tagged for the corporate national competition to represent the company on TikTok.

The winner of which the group chat learns from Googling would have gotten to go to a higher level of managerial training for free. Huh. Okay. It is clearly filmed in the back room. Huh.

The video is edited within like an inch of its life, but not in a cool way, right? It's edited with like, you know, the sunglasses that come down from the ceiling and like land on your face. There's like a fire border around the edge. It like rapidly switches angles, right? It's like black and white. Now it's blue monochrome. It's full color. Okay. The caption for the video, in addition to being like, please select me for this managerial training, blah, blah, blah. Mm-hmm.

credits Oliver with video editing. Oh, no. Wait, so my... Could it have been this video the whole time? I know. Is it actually that they are so truly bland that they were quietly filming every time they were taking those breaks and that's all it was?

Oh, no. I mean, like, you know, that thing where it's like the simplest answer is probably the right answer. But in this scenario, is the simplest answer the video or is the simplest answer they were fucking? I don't know. I mean, there's so like there is an aspect of this that they were so special. Like, I guess I'm talking about Bailey here. She was so rigid and so within the box that this was kind of like out of left field for her.

It wouldn't explain why she got so happy, though, why they – unless she, like, loves filming TikToks. That's her happy place. Unless she discovered her new passion. Yeah, yeah. I'm – yeah, I do see the argument for maybe it's the bland answer, but I – yeah, I agree with you that perhaps the romance is still likely, and they were just filming the TikToks as a bonus. Yeah.

Unfortunately, this is the end of the gossip. Like we have not there is not an update yet. Our friend of a friend is like on it, I have been told. But we still don't know. We live in a little bit of gossip mystery. Do we know how Bailey has been since all of this as a manager? We know that she like has been a little calmer.

Okay. Still. Like, she's still... She no longer is, like, stop watching people's breaks. She never went back to that. Okay. So she's, like, a little softer. She's a little more human. That would also speak to, like, something really happening. Yes. And also...

She didn't fire Oliver. Right. Oh, as a by-the-book person, maybe she was afraid of a retaliation. Yeah, so it could be retaliation, right? Or it could be that she was just like, oh, I like him, so I won't fire him. Right. Oh, Bailey. Right.

Here's the thing you should know about me. It's like I almost always, or like in a lot of scenarios, end up rooting for the wrong person. And I have been told this, that like... I don't think Bailey's necessarily the wrong person. She's not the wrong person. I guess what I'm saying is like, I'm so Team Bailey. You did come in like immediately like, I'm on Team Bailey, which is interesting. You were like this poor, terrible manager who just like has no interest. Yeah.

What can I say? I felt a lot for Bailey. She wants love. And now she's been through some shit, you know? I know. It's hard. And anyone who has to date an Oliver deserves compassion. That is so true. Absolutely true. Tobin, thank you so much for coming on to Normal Gossip. It was a joy to have you. Thank you. I had the most fun.

Thank you for listening to Normal Gossip. If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us at normalgossip at defector.com or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679-GOSSIP. If you love this podcast and want us to keep making it, become a friend or a friend of a friend at supportnormalgossip.com. You can follow me on all social media at McKinney Kelsey. This podcast was produced by Alex Sujan Laughlin. Defector's projects editor is Justin Ellis. Our editor-in-chief is Tom Ley. Thank you for listening to Normal Gossip.

Thanks to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber-based media company. I'm Kelsey McKinney, and remember, you did not hear this from me.