Romancing the Stoned with Jenée Desmond-Harris
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Before we get going today, I wanted to tell you about another Radiotopia podcast you should be listening to, Song Exploder. Song Exploder is an award-winning show about the creative process behind music. Artists break down one of their songs, letting you hear all the different layers in the recording, from instruments to beats to vocals. And most importantly, they talk about why they made the creative choices they did. Song Exploder is not just for music nerds. It's for anybody who cares about creativity or wants to feel inspired to create something.

It's hosted by Rishi Keshe Hiraway, who you might know from the podcast Home Cooking or the West Wing Weekly. The episodes are short, about 20 minutes each, and my recommendation is to start with an episode featuring an artist you love. And then listen to one with an artist you don't know at all. There are over 250 episodes with guests like Fleetwood Mac, Madonna, Solange, Dope.

Billy Eilish, Phoebe Bridgers, FK Twigs, The Killers, Dua Lipa, and John Batiste, and more. Each episode is really a miniature portrait of an artist and how their creative mind works, with the song as the lens we see them through. It's also a great way to discover new music. It's a different kind of experience to get introduced to a song this way, learning how and why each piece and idea came together before you hear the whole song at the end.

Find your favorite episode of Song Exploder and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts or at songexploder.net. Hello, and welcome to Normal Gossip. I'm Kelsey McKinney, and in each episode of this podcast, we're going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. I am fucking thrilled to have with me today, Janae Desmond-Harris. Janae is Slate's Dear Prudence Advice Columnist.

She answers letters about relationships, work, family, and life in general in a weekly column and an accompanying podcast. Janae and I also worked together very early in my career, so I am so excited to have her here. Janae, welcome. Thank you for having me. I'm so, so, so excited to be here. Oh my God, I'm so excited that you're here. We have like a nice long history together at this point. Well, I was going to say, we go way back.

to many years and many jobs ago. Back when I was a wee child. But you know what? I remember I loved gossiping with you even back then. Do you want to talk a little bit about like how gossip plays into your podcast? Oh, yeah. I mean, I think there are two kinds of gossip. So, you know, in journalism, there's the breaking news, the hard news. And then there's the opinion and analysis. Yes.

I think when most people think about gossip, they're thinking about the breaking news. Okay. Someone's getting divorced. Someone's cheating. Someone had a BBL. Okay. These people are hooking up. It's a secret. There's only so much of that kind, right? I don't get a ton of really, really juicy, dramatic gossip anymore. That's true. Yeah. So I really love the opinion and analysis gossip. Okay. Yeah.

And so that's the kind of gossip I'm usually doing with my friends if we don't have anything super big and explosive to join. If there's no breaking news. Yeah. It's a slow news day in the friend group. Exactly, yeah. But I can always do an op-ed. I'm always willing to do a gossip op-ed. Anytime. Do you want to talk a little bit, or like also I'm just curious, how gossip functions within your marriage? You've been married, it's almost your anniversary. It was just your anniversary? Yes, I've been married for seven years. Thank you.

Gossip is huge. I don't know how much you believe in astrological signs, but my husband and I are both Geminis. Oh my God. I love Geminis. And so we're both just people who can just be entertained just by...

reflecting on stuff, talking about stuff, being a little bit petty about stuff. Yes. I've talked a lot about how we keep a list of things to discuss. Okay. We want to get the other person's opinion on. Where do you keep the list? A Google Doc. A Google Doc. Okay, great. The Google Doc works. Well, we start it with a text.

Oh, I see. We'll say add. And that means add to the list for discussion. Colon. And sometimes, honestly, a lot of times it's just somebody's tweet. You know, she's at it again. Put that on the list. Or add. Do you think Kamala Harris is happy right now? I mean, it's really.

It could be anything like that, right? And if we get news from a friend, we'll put it on their ad. Right. So-and-so broke up with whoever. Can you believe it? Right. We started this practice when we worked from a one-bedroom apartment together. We could not just interrupt each other all day. Right. Right.

And it ended up being helpful once we had a kid, just had less time to talk. And so when we do get time to go for a walk or sit and hang out, we'll pull up the list. That's so smart. Yeah. Because it makes the most of your talking time. Because instead of saying, how was your day? It was fine. I got some work done. Right. You can say, did you see what Kelsey had on Instagram? Yeah.

Something I really admire about Geminis in my experience is that though I don't think you're like the biggest grudge holders of the Zodiac Signs,

you're very good at being like, we could have a grudge on this person. It's like the list of people who like could be promoted to enemy at any minute. Gemini's always have them. Like they're like, these are all the people that we could hate. Definitely. And I'm like, I forgot that person existed entirely. These are all the people who, you know, we have a thorough critique. Yeah. We have some opinions about them. Did you bring a gossip for me?

I did. So I have a friend who has had some great career success lately. Okay, congratulations. She's in a Kelsey McKinney type of zone right now, you know? Oh, by the way, congratulations on your book. Thank you. That's so nice. So she's taken sort of author photo type things. She's been on TV. She's had some public events. And she's really thriving. And she, as a result, needed a really great manicurist.

Okay. So she ended up going to this woman who is kind of celebrity adjacent. Ooh. She found her on Instagram. I love that. Where the woman has a really big following. And, I mean, she's done nails for people who...

They're not Serena Williams. They're not Taylor Swift. They're not Beyonce. But you would be impressed if you saw whose nails she's done, right? Yes. So she was in my friend's city and my friend was lucky enough to get an appointment with her. So my friend had a good experience, beautiful nails, and she had a really good rapport with this woman. Oh, great. So about a month later, she gets a text from this woman asking, do you know of anyone who might have a room for me to stay in when I come to your city? Yeah.

Okay. A room like for sleeping or a room for working? For sleeping. And that's a little weird to me because she's supposed to be really fancy and celebrity adjacent. And I would think she could afford a hotel, but you never know what's going on in people's bank accounts. Yes. And what obligations they have. So my friend is super generous. And she was like, oh, absolutely. You can stay in our guest house. She has a little ADU or whatever that no one was using at the time.

Okay. I'm already – I'm like – I can't imagine having spent, I assume, like, what, one hour, two hours max with someone doing your nails and then being like, yes, live in my house. Right? Like, that's a level of intimacy that I'm like, I don't think we're there yet, babe. But my friend is a big extrovert and a real people person. Okay. And one thing about her, she really connects with people easily and she sees the best in everyone. Oh, wow.

Could not be me. Couldn't be me. So nail artist moves in. She stays for three days. No problem. She also allows my friend to sneak into the schedule to get her nails done while she's in town. Well, I mean, that does feel like the least she could do. Feels like it, right? Because you're staying in her house. But my friend still has to pay. But it's not cheap. Is this woman paying to stay in her house? No. No. No.

So it's like what she gave her in return was an appointment, not a free appointment. Yeah. What I believe in is a bartering system. And the thing is, when you're bartering for goods, the goods need to be of equal value. So like the appointment is not worth, I'm assuming more than one night. Right. In someone else's home. Right. Okay.

But anyway, like I said, my friend has had some success and she could afford it and whatever. And you said that she liked her nails the first time she went, right? She loved her nails. Okay. So it kind of makes sense. So a couple months later, she gets a text that says, can I come stay in your guest house again? And can my partner come?

And my friend is like, she has a little bit of a feeling that this is getting to be kind of a lot. Uh-huh. But okay, no problem. Once again, she's placed on the schedule. Once again, she gets her nails done. But due to some overscheduling issues, she's at the shop for seven hours.

Seven hours? She's actually running late for some things she has to do, so she ends up leaving with wet nails. Yeah, I bet she is because she was at the nail salon for seven hours. Yeah. Increasingly frustrated the whole time, and the woman's not particularly apologetic. Uh-huh. It's just kind of like, you should still be grateful that you got on my schedule. This is a crazy way to behave. Right, exactly. So she leaves with wet nails. They end up getting smudged, but, you know, shit happens. It's just nails. It's fine. Right.

So at this point, the nail artist asks if she can stay a few extra days. Okay. At this point, I'm like, it's called a boundary. Yeah. And I'm going to need you to learn about one and then erect one because I'm like, you are no longer benefiting from this.

relationship with someone who is not your friend right like from everything you've said it's not like it's like oh she goes to work all day and then she comes back and we like drink wine on the porch and gab and we're developing a like intimate emotional friendship it's like no no this is your nail artist and the woman's partner was there with her she was having a getaway with her partner right okay um

So my friend says, okay, you can stay a few hours a day. And then it becomes a few more days until it has turned into two weeks. What? She's been there for two weeks. No, no, no, no, no, no. My friend is still thinking, well, no one was using the guest house anyway. It's not that big of a deal. But then she starts getting these somewhat demanding texts, such as, we need extra towels. Bitch, this is not a hotel. That's what she said. Like, I'm like...

She was like, she was treating me like it was a hotel and was really confusing. Please restock the toilet paper. Could I please have clean sheets today? Yeah. No. No.

No. Yeah, but guess who brought the housekeeping cart and refreshed everything? Oh my god. My very nice friend. She brings them all with her messed up nails. I'm like, I love you. Do not do this for everyone. Yeah, no. This is a way to behave for people who you love, right? This is for your mom. Yes. Yes.

your mom and not that many other people. No. Okay. Finally, it's the last day of the stay and my friend goes back there to say goodbye. And the nail artist casually mentions the toilet is backed up. But it's beyond backed up. It's actually overflowing. It's a massive, disgusting mess. And it has stunk up the entire guest house. Oh my god, what? Part of the reason they needed so many towels was that the towels were being used to absorb...

The overflowing toilet. Yeah, on the floor. Oh my god! At this point, the nail artist shares that it's been that way for the past eight days. You've been living in a house with an overflowing toilet for eight days? And they've been going across the street to Dunkin' Donuts to use the bathroom. What?! Yeah. Oh my god! What?

Wait, this also... Okay, hold on. Doing a little bit of math real quick in my head, which I'm famously bad at. This also means that when she asked to stay for a few extra days, the toilet was already clogged. Yeah. So either maybe she didn't want to...

She was avoiding the confrontation about the toilet. And thought it would resolve? Or it was just really working for her. She was really fine with the Dunkin' Donuts walk every morning. A thing about plumbing is that it doesn't really magically resolve. No, it doesn't. It's not one of those things that it's just like, oh, this problem is fixed now. It's like, no, you have to hire a guy.

So my friend finds a new nail artist. She doesn't hear anything from this woman. She figures she never will. Oh, my God. There's more. Okay. A month later, she reaches out to try to book the guest house again. No! So my friend reaches out to me and she goes, what should I say? I said, obviously, you have to say no. Obviously. And she pulls herself together to say no. I asked her, how did you explain it? And she said, I told her the toilet was still clogged.

Honestly, I would have been afraid to tell her that because apparently this woman is fine with living somewhere with a clogged toilet. There's plenty of retail establishments on your block. Yeah, don't worry. There's a Dunkin' Donuts that I could go to. I'll be right there. Like, oh my God. Janae, thank you for this gossip. You're welcome. I loved it. Do you want to hear the gossip that I have for you? Absolutely.

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Hosted by Maria Garcia, this is My Devo, an Apple original podcast produced by Futuro Studios. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts. Have you ever taken any kind of like drug or alcohol that has made you all woozy during an important time? Yeah.

Can you tell me about it? I was at my husband's house for Christmas. I think it was either right before or right after we were married. And actually my mom came with me and it was just stressful having the in-laws meet each other. Yeah. And my mom had just gotten into eating an edible now and then.

Iconic. And so I decided to have one too. And I had just a little too much. And all through Christmas, I just, I couldn't stop laughing and I just felt not okay in a weird way. And I ended up telling everyone I just had a really, really bad headache and kind of going into the corner. Yeah.

Because I also was self-conscious about how I was behaving. I don't think it was bad. But anyway, I felt really, really woozy and it made me self-conscious and it made me more stressed than I would have been if I was just dealing with typical family stress. I think, unfortunately, you're really going to identify with this story today. Okay. So our friend of a friend, we're going to call her Uma. Okay. When we meet her today, she's like primping for a date, right? She's like taking an everything shower. It's like hair, body, face, right? Like the whole thing. Mm-hmm.

She is supposed to meet her date at 9 p.m. That's late. Is it late? Well, that's my question for you is how do you feel about this time for a date? It feels really late to me. I'm wondering if it's reflecting a washed lifestyle on my part. But I would say normal for...

dinner or drinks would be like more seven or eight. Yeah. So this is only drinks. Okay. And it is like kind of clear what the winking like intention of the 9 p.m. meeting time is. Right. Have a drink and then go home. Yes. Okay. And she was on board with that. And she's on board with that because this man is hot.

And he's like giving book talk hot, like written by a woman man, right? So it's like tall, lots of hair, like looks strong enough to hoist you. And so, you know, like giant hands, like veins on the forearm, right? Like that whole thing. Okay, so romance novel cover. Yes. Yes.

Do you think that this is, like, is this a reason to go on a 9 p.m. date? You're like, he's hot as shit. Sure. Yeah. Okay. She goes to the bar. He's there. She's, like, immediately a little nervous because he seems, like, very aloof, like, unfocused. And she's like, maybe he doesn't like me, right? Like, maybe I'm, like, too short, right? Maybe there's some kind of problem. What do you do? Or maybe he's nervous because he likes you so much. What do you do here? Um...

See how you feel after the first drink. See if you're both more calm. That's what alcohol is for, right? Yeah. She's like, we'll order our drinks. She's like, and then I'm going to ask him, like, what...

one of those questions that is like just to like get to know you like insane either or okay so like the one i'm going to use as an example here is one that was circulating on twitter recently which is would you rather have every single drink that you consume for the rest of your life have one drop of pee in it or wear a fedora every day what part of twitter are you on because

What do you think? The pee, because I think it would totally get, like, watered down. Yes. And I would just try to forget about it. An interesting thing that I have noticed is that there is kind of a gender divide in this. In that, like, many women I have asked this question to and that I have seen respond to it are, like, one drop of pee, like...

That's fine. It's sterile. Who knows? I'll forget about it. This man on this date is like Fedora. And so this girl is like, I'm no longer referring to this man in my head as like book talk man. I am now referring to him as Fedora man. Okay. Okay. So Fedora guy has one cocktail. He does really loosen up. He starts like looking at her more. They're engaging. I thought he would. Yeah, you were so right. And she's like...

do you want to go back to my place? And he's like, yes.

So they both drive their cars. Like, he follows her. They get there. He has to duck through the doorway. And she's like, I'm in love with him. Right? Like, he's so tall. He's, like, 6'5". He's so tall. Wow. They're like, oh, well, like, watch a movie on the couch, right? Ostensibly. We're going to watch a movie on the couch. And so they, like, put on a movie. They're starting to kiss. When he asks her one of the, like, top five most upsetting questions you can be asked while making out, which is, what is that smell? Oh, I was...

you know what, that's the first thing that popped into my head. Really? Yeah. Why? Because I was just watching TikToks about, this is the part of TikTok I'm on, how to tell someone they stink in like an intimate way.

intimate situation and people were doing different scripts for it Uma immediately is panicking because she's like what is that smell it's like do I smell right she's like I don't smell right she's like sniffing she did her everything shower she's like I don't smell anything like what smell and he's like sniffing and he's like it smells like smoke

And then the fire alarms go off. Oh, boy. And Uma is like, God damn it. Like, I'm being cock-blocked by fire alarms. Like, that is not fair. This man does not say a lot. He, like, pulls on his shoes. He's like, we should go outside. Like, the fire alarms are going off. And she's like, yeah, okay, smart, I guess. They go outside, and it's like, the fire alarms are not stopping, right? Like, it's not one of those things where, like, you go outside and you wait three minutes, the fire alarms go off, and you get to come back in.

So he's like, I'm going to go home. Like, I don't know how long this is going to take, but like, would love to see you again. And then he kisses her on the cheek. What do you make of the cheek kiss? I make more of the leaving than the cheek kiss. Okay, why? The cheek kiss in combination with the leaving tells me that

He is not as enthusiastic about Uma as she is about him. He could take it or leave it. Yeah. Uma is like, you know what, would I want to stand outside someone else's apartment for like God knows how long?

No, that's fair to me. Yeah, but if they were really into each other, they'd be like maybe cuddling, holding hands. Yes. So she's like, I understand why he would leave, but also my feelings are a little hurt. Yeah. Right. But she's like outside. She can't go back in her apartment. She's awake. And also like all of her neighbors are also outside because there's a fire alarm drill.

the firemen show up and the firemen are hot Uma's like you know what great now there's hot firemen here whatever

And the firemen are like very busy. And so they there's like lots to watch. It's very entertaining. Has this ever happened to you? Have you ever had to go like outside for a nighttime fire drill? All the time? Yeah, I feel like all the time. Did you live in the dorms in college? Yes. Yeah. I mean, I feel like we were always out there. And actually, yeah, didn't the door didn't the fire alarms go off every time someone like ran a hot shower?

I feel like it was very common. I remember distinctly being outside in the middle of the night in college a couple of times. I do remember a couple of times being outside, but I wouldn't say it was very common. Also, one of my most embarrassing stories is from when – so pre-VOX, when I was in my lawyer days, and I worked at – TBT to when you were a girl boss. Yeah. I worked at a big firm downtown DC in a big building, and I worked for this one partner who –

Sort of was the bane of my existence, you know? Classic. He was always giving me more and more assignments, and often I didn't totally know what he was talking about. He didn't explain them well. Great. Yeah.

And just really, really stressed me out. So I was on my way to lunch one day and I saw him coming. And I knew that if I kept on the path I was on, we were going to end up in the elevator together. And I knew that if that happened, he would give me an assignment in the elevator. Right. And I wouldn't have time to write it down. And then you would be lost. Lead to chaos. Yes. Okay.

I made a last minute decision just to take a quick turn and go down a stairwell instead. Oh no. Without noticing that was the stairwell that was an emergency exit. Oh no. So the fire alarms went off in the whole 14th floor building.

And Kelsey, the fire trucks came. Like I heard, I just kept going. No. I went to Caribou Coffee. You were like, goodbye. Goodbye to the mess I created. And I just heard, I said, oh my God.

I hear fire engines and this is because of me. So they came to the law firm. Everyone had to go outside. And I just stayed. I think I went to Carribo Coffee and then I went to a sandwich place and I said, let me just wait this out. Finally, after it was all over, I walked back inside, went to my desk with my sandwich. And I thought I'd gotten away with it. And a fireman came to my door. He was like, I understand you pulled the alarm. Oh!

And I had to tell him it was a mistake. Anyway. And you were like, did I do that? Yeah. I was trying to escape a partner, if that means anything to you. Okay. So they're outside, nighttime fire drill. She has not hidden away at a sandwich spot. She's like yabbing to everyone. Okay.

And she's, like, also feeling a lot of, like, feelings about having lost this fedora guy and him, like, not saying goodbye to Brie Lee and not hanging out, whatever. Mm-hmm. This is, like, a big apartment complex. There are, like, a couple of buildings. They're right next to each other. They have, like, very poor markings. Like, Uma is always joking that if an Uber dropped her off here for a booty call, she would be like, no, take me home. Like, I'm never going to find the apartment I'm trying to get to. Oh, wow. Okay.

So she's like out there for hours and she's kind of like, yeah, of course we are. These buildings are- It's hours? Yes. For hours. They are out there. They didn't go anywhere? They just stayed on the street? Okay. They're just out there on the street gapping. It's like the weather is nice and also it's like all your neighbors are there.

And when you live in a big building, you know, there's like kind of a camaraderie of like drama that's always going on. Right. So they're like, are you still having mail issues? Like, does the landlord ever email you back? Right. They're like comparing notes. Right. Right.

What everyone is really gabbing about, though, is the fact that there are supposed to be three laundry rooms in this apartment complex, and two of them have been out of commission for months. Which means that there's only one laundry room, and it's, like, not in Uma's building, and the laundry is heavy, and you have to carry it, like, this whole long way, right? Miserable. So everyone has a shared beef, which means that this is, like, a fun time. The firefighters are doing their shit, and everyone's like, we hate our landlord, right? Yeah.

They're doing this when her best friend in the complex, we're going to call her Tatiana, shows up.

And Tatiana is like, oh my god, is BookTok guy here? And Uma is like, okay, about that, we're calling him Fedora guy now. And Tatiana is like, he wore a fedora to the date? And Uma's like, no, no, no, no. So she like, explains all of this to Tatiana. And Tatiana's like, well, is he here? And Uma's like, no, he like, left. And Tatiana's like, well, what, did you have a good time? And Uma's like, no, the fire alarm like,

ruined my life. Tatiana's like, I'm so sorry. She's like, that sucks. Like, I know you were excited to meet him. And then she's like, do you have any idea, like, what's going on here? Like, are we ever going to get to go back into our apartment? She's like, I have an early meeting. Exactly. She's like, what are we doing here? So you're Uma. You want to know what's going on. How do you find out what's going on?

Well, given what I know about Uma, she seems like she's a little bit on the prowl. And you mentioned she thought the firefighters were really attractive. Yes. I feel like she's ovulating. Yeah.

I'm getting that energy from her. You've got to be careful. She really wants to connect with a man. So putting myself in Uma's shoes, I probably go fluff my hair a little bit, put on a little lip gloss and go over to one of the firefighters and just say, hey, I'd love to know. Could you give me any details on what's happening here? And she'll either find out the facts or she'll form another connection that could replace Fedora guy. Yes. This is entirely Uma's move.

She's like, here I go over to the firefighters, like good posture, make yourself look cute, make your voice higher, right? Like all the works. So she goes over there. They have directed her to the one like lady firefighter. Okay. So she's like, hello, ma'am. Like, I'm so sorry to bother you. But like, what is happening here?

And the lady firefighter is like, oh, man, it's, like, really bad, actually. Like, two apartments are basically gutted. Oh, no. And Uma is like, oh, my God, that's awful. Like, do you know why? And the lady firefighter is like, yeah, it's like, we think it's a water heater problem, but we, like, won't know for sure for a couple weeks. Okay. And Uma's like, is everybody okay? Yeah.

And the firefighter's like, yeah, yeah, everyone's fine. Like, you don't need to worry about that. And Uma's like, cool, great. Also, how long do you think this is going to take? Like, we would like to go back to our apartments. Right. And the lady firefighter is like, we're actually like, you should be back in the next 15 minutes. And she's like, great.

And I would also be wondering, if you have this landlord who's not great and not keeping up with the laundry rooms and not keeping up with some of the water heaters, I would be wondering, is my water heater next? Yes. What do you do? Like, you finally get the all clear to go back to your apartment. What is your move here? Putting myself again in Uma's shoes. I call, I text Fedora Guy and say,

I text him and say, finally got let back into the apartment, but apparently there's some mysterious water heater issue that caused two apartments to totally burn down. I have no idea what the status of my water heater is. I don't trust that my landlord has kept up with it. I don't want to be next. Could I come to your house for safety? This is called

having game. Like what you're doing, that is game. That is very good work. This is not what Uma does. Uma goes to her own bed and she Googles water heater fire. And she's like reading all these articles. She writes an email to her landlord and she's like, please fix this. And then she falls asleep. Okay. Because it's late.

She's probably really tired. Yeah. And she's like, I've had a bad evening. Like double loss. People lost their apartments in this terrible fire. And also I lost my hookup with Fedora guy, which is also hard.

How do you get this guy to go out with you again? I mean, I think the best idea would be to kind of sit back and wait, because she's already gotten two negative vibes from him. One was the first moment where she felt like he was distracted and maybe not been into her. Yeah. The second was when he decided he couldn't stand outside for more than five minutes and just would pass on the hookup altogether. So me, myself, I wouldn't chase him down. Yes. Uma decides, text Tatiana. Okay.

Okay. She's like, Tatiana, what do I do? Like, do we think that this is a negative vibe? Do we think it's okay? And Tatiana is like, why are you texting me? Like, just text him. Like, she's like, if you want to see him again, that's enough reason to text him. Okay. And she's like, okay, help me craft my text.

And so 20 minutes later, she texts Fedora Guy and she's like, don't worry, I survived the fire. Like, can't wait to see you again. Happy face. And he responds, whew. But he doesn't, like, there's no happy face. There's no follow up. There's no question. Oh, wow. How long do you wait to text him again? Eternity. Eternity.

No, she can't do it again. She has to have some self-respect. Uma is like, I'm not texting this guy back. Good for her. I'm not texting him back. He can text me. I'll wait. She waits a week and then she's like,

You know, these are good rules if you're trying to date someone, right? Like, if you're trying to, like, date someone and decide if they're the one for you, these are reasonable rules. Like, he's a bad texter and doesn't care if I've died in a fire. Like, I shouldn't want to date him. Right. And Uma's like, but I still do want to bang him.

So, like, I'm going to text him again. Okay. She just wants to get him back into her physical space where he has to duck to get through the doorway. Yes, exactly. So she's like, I will ignore the several orange flags that have been raised. And she texts this man, rain check, question mark. She's putting her pride aside completely. Yes. And he's like, absolutely, when? And she's like, oh, okay. Maybe he's just a bad texter. She's like, tonight? Yeah.

And he's like, totally. And she's like, great. My place? Like, no fire this time. And he's like, absolutely, yes. How are you feeling at this point? Concerned. Okay. Why? Yeah.

I've already worried for Uma that he's going to flake out on her. Because again, I have that data about his lack of initiative and interest. And I just don't see it panning out for her. And I'm worried about her getting her feelings hurt. I wish she would have gone after a firefighter. I just got back on the apps and found someone else. Yeah. But anyway. She's laser focused though, right? Like horse blinders onto this like fedora map.

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She takes her everything shower again. She cleans her apartment. She lights a candle. She like puts her mood lights on, right? She like opens the door to the balcony in her bedroom. She's like, it's so nice. She set a scene. She set a scene.

Fedora guy shows up at like 9 p.m. Does he have a family at home? Why is everything so late? That's a great question. Okay. He texts her and he's like, I'm so sorry, but I cannot figure out how to get to your apartment. Like, can you meet me downstairs to help me? And she's like, yeah, of course. So she goes downstairs and gets him. She brings him upstairs. He's like, it looks so nice in here. Like, did you clean? And she's like, I did. Thank you for noticing. She didn't clean the first time when she knew you were coming. She's like, do you want some wine? Yeah.

And he's like, oh, do you actually have any weed? Like, I'd rather have weed if you have any. And she's like, oh, yeah, totally. I have these new edibles that Tatiana gave me. Like, she says that they're great. Like, we can use those. And he's like, great. So they take their little edibles...

feeling good, feeling nothing yet, right? She's like, this is so fun. He's here. They're sitting on the couch. He's like, you know, touching the couch. And he's like, this couch is so uncomfortable. And in her head, she's like, this is a very nice couch that I spent several paychecks on. But she's like, yeah, it is uncomfortable. You're right. Like, we should go lie down. Yeah. So they move into her room. And they're like, you know, getting ready, you know, things are moving. And he's like, do you have like,

music or something. Like, he's like, I can't, like, the silence is gonna make me feel weird. It's another, to me, it's another piece of evidence he's not into her. The evidence is just stacking up, you know? I mean, I get that music is nice, but she's already set this great scene, and you're about to stop everything so you can put on a soundtrack because you, like,

aren't feeling right just based on her being there she's like totally here's a bluetooth speaker like put on whatever you want i'm gonna go like to the bathroom really quick okay right because she's like this is not like we need a little reset yeah so she goes to the bathroom she gets in there and she's like looking in the mirror and you know when you look in the mirror and you have like your edible is just starting to kick in and you're like why are my eyes so small

I haven't had that experience and I can imagine how weird it would feel. She's like, why are my eyes so small? Like, why are they red? And then she's like, oh my god, ha ha ha ha, I forgot that I took this edible and I'm becoming high. She goes back out. He has put on, like, deep house music. Like, it's giving, like, desert sound bath playlist. So she's like, he is no longer Fedora Man to me, he is now Sound Bath Man to me.

She's like, whatever. Like, it doesn't matter to me what's playing. Like, I think this guy is hot. This is fine. She's so determined. She's so determined. She gets in the bed and she's like rapidly becoming too high. She's like, I'm so heavy. Like, my body is made of sand. Mm-hmm.

She's like, all my limbs are so big. And then she's like, he's so heavy. He's made of sand. Like, will I die? Right? Her thoughts are like floating away from her. I'm sure the music is just intensifying all of it too. Yes. And she's like, push it down. Right? Like, this is what I want. I want to do this. Like, I'm pushing it down. She's like looking at all of the hair on this man's head. He has so much hair. And she's like, his hairs are so beautiful. Like, I would like to keep one.

For myself. She's like, it's like when that guy in Lord of the Rings asked the beautiful elf for one of her hairs. And so she's like, you know, like very mesmerized by his hair. And he's like, what are you doing? And she's like, your hair is so beautiful. Like, I'm sorry. I'm, I'm rather high, but like, can I have some? And he's like, what? And as he says what she's like, what is that? She swears that she can hear softly a fire alarm. No. And she's like,

No. I'm high. I'm making it up. She's like, this must be part of the sound bath. You know, like when you're driving and like some song like Man Down by Rihanna is playing and you're like, are the police following me? I'm such a nervous driver. If there's anything resembling a horn, an ambulance, I'm panicking. So she's like,

I'm just being nervous. Like, last time we got interrupted by a fire alarm, it was just this. And then he's laughing, like, good-spiritedly. And he's like, is that a fucking fire alarm? Mm-hmm.

And she's like, I think it's your music. But did they smell anything? If they don't smell anything, I would say just choose to ignore it at this point. She's worked so hard to get to this point. They do not smell anything. But now it's like, again, this moment has been interrupted. She doesn't believe in signs when something is not meant to be. She does not. Not.

She's like, I'm pretty sure it's the music. And she's very high. So she sits up straight in the middle of the bed and she's like trying to separate the sounds. She's like, she's like tracing every single sound to its origin point. Right. She's like, there's a triangle noisemaker sound like that's a bass. That's him. Didn't occur to anyone to turn off the music and listen.

He is like, let me turn off the music and we can listen. So he turns it off and they can sure enough like hear a fire alarm. Okay. And Uma's like, you know, this happened, like fire alarms go off in apartment complexes all the time. Like it's probably someone cooking because like the fire alarms are really sensitive. Like let's not worry about it. This is what I tried to tell you. It happens all the time. So

No, what you said is going outside to stand in the middle of the night happens all the time. She's like, somebody's probably cooking. She's like, I'm just going to close the doors to the balcony because that will muffle this sound, right? Like it's coming from somewhere outside. So she's like, whatever.

So she goes, she closes it. And he's like, what was it that happened last time? Like, was there an actual fire? And she's like, oh, yeah, there was an actual fire. Like two apartments. Basically, I got it. And he's like, what? At this point, she's risking her life. Yes. And he's like, why did the fire start? Like, do you know? And she's like, yeah, there was like a water heater, I guess, that overheated. And like, I don't know. And he's like, well, did they fix that? Mm hmm.

And she's like, I don't know, honestly. I have no idea. So now he's like concerned, right? He's like, hmm, I'm not so sure that I personally wish to risk my life for this hookup. And then he's like, wait a second. And he puts his like giant head against the wall behind the bed. And he's like,

I'm pretty sure that that's your neighbor's fire alarm. And don't forget, last time it took out two apartments, so it could be the neighbor's and hers. Yes, but she's like so loosey-goosey at this point that she's like, I don't understand, right? She's like, there's a fire inside the wall? And he's like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, your neighbor's fire alarm is going off. And so she puts her ear up against the wall, and sure enough, it's like clearly coming from the other side of the wall. And he's like, do you think your neighbor's in there?

And she's like, she's like, I don't know. Like, usually he works nights. So like, I don't, but I don't know him at all. He could be there. And she's also like, it's been like, now it's been a little bit of time that this alarm has been going off, right? Like if you're cooking and the alarm is going off, it's going off for like 30 seconds before you hit it, right? What do you do at this point? If I'm Uma and my limbs are really, really heavy. So heavy. I care about cooking up with this guy more than I care about my own life.

Yes. I would probably be like, let's just give it 10 minutes and see if we smell smoke. If we smell smoke, we'll know something is going on. And if it's really next door, we would smell the smoke. So put your sound bath back on and just try to relax for a minute. Uma's like...

She, like, gets out of the bed. She puts on, like, the pajama pants closest to her, right? Which are, like, yellow ones with a drawstring and, like, a cropped t-shirt. And she's like, you can wait in the bed. Like, I'm just going to poke my head out on the balcony and see what's going on. And this guy is like, I'm not waiting in the bed if there's a fire. And she's like, that's a really good point. You know, whatever. So she goes out on the balcony and she can see, like, from the balcony into her neighbor's kitchen. And there is smoke in there. Yeah.

What now? You gotta evacuate. I mean, grab your valuables, get your passport, photo albums. At this point, I know Uma, like, I understand where your head is, but you've gotta let this one go. It wasn't meant to be with BookTok guy. Get your valuables and go outside.

She's like, there's smoke in there. I'm going to call 911. And he's like, I think that's for the best. So she's on the phone with 911 and she's like, here's all the info. Like, here's what's going on. Here's where we are. While she's on the phone, the date is like signaling that he's leaving. Mm-hmm.

And she's like, don't leave. Like, stay. But she can't talk to him. She's talking to the, like, emergency response people. And she's like, I don't know. I think it's, like, stairwell three. Like, da-da-da-da-da. By the time she's off the phone, he's gone. Okay. I'm not surprised in the least. Why? Because he's been trying to get away from her this whole time. She's like, this is so sad. She hears, like, that sad sound of the Bluetooth speaker, like, disconnecting from his phone. And she's like, this is terrible. But she's also like, you know what? What?

I've done the right thing here. Like, the right thing was to call 911 on this fire over, like, getting to sleep with this guy, right? Yeah. Now the alarm in her apartment is going off. Oh, no. So she's like, okay, it is time to go. So she, like, puts on, you know, like, her slippers or Crocs or whatever, and she, like, puts her valuables in a bag, and she goes downstairs. Something about Uma is that she has, like, a big thigh tattoo. Hmm.

Okay. Which would theoretically not be relevant, except that she's wearing pajama pants. And as she's going down the stairs, she realizes that she can like see the entire tattoo. Through her yellow thin pajama pants. Okay. These are like forever 21 pajama pants that she's had for 21 years. Right. They're in horrible condition. And they're like threadbare. So she's like, my entire pants are see-through. And I am now going downstairs where all the hot firemen will be and also all of my neighbors. Right. Do you go back to your apartment and change? No.

No, because we're talking about life here. We're talking about survival. Yeah. Go outside and sit down somewhere so no one can see your butt. You'll be fine. Smart. She's like, one, fire. I cannot go back in there. Two, she's like, the apartment complex is complicated and I want to help the fire department find this apartment so that my fucking apartment doesn't go up in flames. Right. Right? So she gets down to the parking lot in her see-through pants and

And one of her people are like in motion, right? Because now we've had one fire that turned out to be bad. So like one of her neighbors is like hopping over a fence to let the fire trucks in. There are like so many of them. And suddenly she's like entering the next phase of high. And she's like, what did I say on the phone? Where am I? Oh, no. What do you do at this point?

Uma seems like she needs a big glass of water and some coffee. But if I'm in her state of mind, I probably call my friend who lives in the building for some help. Tantyama. Yeah. Uma is like, I don't have time for that. Because I promised...

on the phone with the emergency responders that I would help the firemen find this apartment, right? So she sees in the parking lot the firefighter lady from before and she's like, hello again. The firefighter lady is like, hello. And Uma's like, I'm the one that called it in. And the firefighter lady is like, thank you so much for like your good citizenship. Like it's important to call in fires. And she's like, thank you. But I could take you there. Like I could take you to the apartment where it is. And the firefighter lady is like, perfect. Let's do that. Good idea. You lead the way.

So she's like leading all these firefighters up four flights of stairs. And as she's going up the stairs, she's like, my pants are see-through. Uh-huh. Like they're all of these firefighters following me up the stairs with my see-through butt. But you know what? Don't you always think in situations like that? They've seen it all. I always tell myself. Yes.

And they're not judging you. And you know it's not true, because they will talk about you in their group chat. But it's just a comforting thought that they've been in a lot of wild situations. They've seen a butt before. They're always going places in the middle of the night. They've seen pajamas. Yes. It's fine. She's like, I would be embarrassed if I were not driven by purpose. Mm-hmm.

Right. She's like, I have meaning to my life. I am important. This is my job. I am like a good citizen. She's like, who cares if every firefighter in this busy, busy town sees my entire ass? Like, that's fine. She gets them up there and she's like, this is my apartment. And the firefighters are like, OK. And she's like, oh, right. Sorry, my bad. This is the apartment where the fire is. And there's like smoke coming from under the door.

And they're like, who lives here? They have to know that before they go put the fire out? They're just, well, people are working while people are asking her questions. Don't worry. People are doing things. But one guy is like, who lives here? And she's like, I don't know, some guy. And they're like, what guy? And she's like, I don't know. He's like 5'10". He wears glasses. He has an arm tattoo. He has annoying music taste. That's like all I know about him. And they're like, no, we meant like, do you know him? Can you call him?

And she's like, oh, no, I don't know him. And they're like, does anyone else live here? Like kids or pets? And she's like, I don't think so. And they're like, okay, then we're going to like go quickly. Like, please stand back.

At this point, another firefighter, not the lady, comes over to her and is like, thank you so much for calling and shakes her hand. And she's like, I have helped. Like, I'm basically a firefighter. Right. She's like, is this what patriotism feels like? Like, I've never felt it before. She's like, this is so nice. Yeah. She's like, should I sing God Bless America? And then she's like, no, no, no, you don't sing at work. I need to be focused. Yeah.

Also, the firefighters are starting to do things, right? Like they are working to get into the store. And so she's like, do I need to leave to one of the firefighters? And the firefighter is like, no, you can stay. Just like stay back. And she's like, I knew it. I knew I was a firefighter now.

So she stays. And this is like a gossip stream, right? Because you get to watch them do whatever it is they want to do. You don't have to hear it third hand. So she watches them like cut a hole in the door and then stick their hand through and like open the door from the inside. That's how they do it. I never knew. Honestly, genius. I assumed there was a big axe. I thought it was a ramrod. I thought you just knocked... Yeah, like in Beauty and the Beast. Yeah. They have like a log. Yeah.

Yeah. They open the door like pretty quickly. Uma's like, this is incredible. I love my profession. I love art. The whole time she could be right next door in her apartment putting on some non-transparent pants. The whole time. But she is not. The whole time they're doing this, she's like, this is so great. I love it. They open the door. And the minute the door is open, a dog comes running out. And she's like, oh shit, he did have a dog. Like I totally forgot about that. But she's also like, this dog has no collar. No collar.

And like also she's like, I'm high. So I'm like doggy. Right. She's like, I love the dog. And she's like, I want to get the dog and I want to make sure the dog is OK. She's like, I know I have a leash in my car because she like walks dogs sometimes. And she's like, but I'm at work. Like I'm a firefighter now. Like who is my boss? Right. Can I go after the dog? And she's like so confused. So she finds a lady firefighter and she's like, can I go to my car?

And the lady firefighter is like, yes. She's like, okay, great. So she runs down the stairs and like across the parking lot through all the neighbors and the firefighters in her see-through pants. And she gets the leash from her car.

And apparently this dog, like, has followed her because a lot of dogs like it when someone is running. So they're, like, fun. So he ran with her and she's, like, perfect. The dog is here. So she puts the little collar and the leash on him. And she's, like, cute dog. Little collie mix. I love my new dog. So she's standing there with the dog who is sitting, just, like, watching now. And she's, like, the dog's eyes are so beautiful. Like, what does the dog know? Is the dog a spirit? Yeah.

She's like, I'm a firefighter and I'm uniquely connected to animals. And then she's like, what am I if not also an animal? Right? She like puts her face on the dog's face. At this point, she sees Tatiana. Okay. Tatiana comes running up to her and Tatiana is like, where the fuck did you get a dog? And Uma's like, no, no, no, no, it's not my dog. I saved the dog. And her friend is like,

What? Like, is this Fedora guy's dog? Like, weren't you supposed to see him tonight? And she's like, oh, I'm not calling him Fedora guy anymore. I'm calling him sound bath guy now. And she's like, why? And Uma's like, because he put on fucking like desert sound bath music for us to bang. And Tatiana's like, so you did bang? And Uma's like, no. Tatiana's like, again? Like, you let him get away? And Uma's like, I guess so. Like, at this point, I'm like, he's just gonna be away, I guess. Yeah.

And Tatiana's like, well, don't lose the dog since you're, like, in a habit of losing things now. And Uma's like, haha, owned, got me. Now Uma's looking at her friend and she's like, I love you, Tatiana. Because she's, like, woozy. She's like, I love being your friend. She's, like, putting her hand on Tatiana's face. And Tatiana is like, are you high? And Uma's like, I am more high than the clouds in the sky. Yeah.

And Tatiana is like, Jesus Christ. And Uma's like, I took those edibles you gave me. I feel great. And Tatiana's like, why are you taking a giant edible before you like bang, whatever? Like, I can't deal with this right now. And now Uma in her high brain remembers. She's like, wait, wait, wait. I'm a firefighter.

I'm supposed to be with the firefighters. Yeah, she was on her 15 minute break. She wasn't off duty. Yeah, she's like, shit, I asked for permission to go to my car, but I'm supposed to be up there. She's like, I have to go. I am needed. And Tatiana's like, what? And Uma's like, I must firefight. And Tatiana's like, I don't think, what are you talking about? So she goes running up the stairs with the dog.

Uma is reaching a new stage of her high. Oh, no. She is, like, ascending. The heavens are opening. Oh, no. She watches as her brethren, like, enter. But she's, like, not ready yet. She's such a new fireman slash angel. In go her friends. They go one by one. They're yelling out. They're like, no one is home. No one is hurt. Uma is like, peace has prevailed. And her apartment's okay. And her apartment is fine. Thank God. She's like, finally, I can enter. She's like, this is my apartment.

Because the floor plans are identical. And so she's like, things have changed here. Like this table was not here before. The kitchen is in the same spot. The living room's in the same spot. Like I exist in the past and the present at the same time. Right? Like she's on one. On the stove, a pot is smoking. Her colleague, the fireman, removes it and takes it off the burner. And she's like, what was it?

And the fireman is like, it looks like mac and cheese. And Uma's like, I'm so hungry. She's like, do you think I could eat that? And the fireman is like, I don't think so, no. It's, like, very burnt. And he shows it to her. It's black. And it's, like, black. And she's like, oh, okay.

She opens a cabinet. She's like, oh, Pop-Tarts. She takes out a Pop-Tart. She begins to eat it. A little for her, a little for the dog. She's like, I love it here. Like, my friends are here. The tiles are greeting me as I pass. Like, she begins to examine her new home. And she's like, the photos are so strange. Like, there's a man in these. Who is he? Yeah.

She sits on the couch and she's like, this couch is so comfortable. And then she's like, maybe the sound bath man was right. And then she's like, wait a second. The sound bath man, the couch, my couch. This is not my apartment. Right. She's like, this is my neighbor's apartment.

She's like, oh my God, what if Soundbath Man and I were very loud and that's why he left? With the macaroni and cheese on the stove? What if he's in love with me and he was jealous and he had to rush out? It's one theory.

She's finding clues. She's like, it all makes sense. There's an Alice in Roman cookbook. I have an Alice in Roman cookbook. Our apartments are the same color. That's the color they were both painted. She's like, we both have rugs. We both love this dog. Twin flames. Yes. Twin flame. Finally, she's met her twin flame. She is jarred out of this fantasy by the firemen being like, we are leaving.

will you be okay with the dog everything is clear here and uma is like yes i will continue our mission and they're like okay what they're like will you tell him what happened and she's like yes and then they look at each other and they write a note and the note is basically like we have come into your apartment because something was on fire we had to break your door like please tell your landlord and he will fix it uma can't read this she holds the note in her hand

The letters are like moving around. She's like, I can't read. I'll never know what this says. When suddenly she looks up and that man is there from the photos. And she's like, he's alive. And he's carrying such a large bag. And she's like, you're alive. And she goes to him and she hugs him. He does not hug her back. She's like, the vibe in here is shifting. Like, this is not heaven. It's now hell.

He doesn't want me here. We aren't twin flames. The dog's probably over her too now that it's real in her. The dog is over her too. He's leaving. An angel is talking to her and the angel is like, you, we have to leave. The angel shepherds her out. Like, it's time to go. And Uma's like, angels know so many things. She's like, goodbye, heaven. Goodbye, man. And off she goes next door to go to sleep. Okay.

We are almost at the end. What do you think? Whose side are you on? Give me it all. Uma. I'm worried about her. I'm worried about our girl. I think she's prone to wake up sober-deaf and still try to pursue Fedora Soundbathman. I actually think she might try to sink her teeth into the neighbor now, now that she's had this moment with him. But his first impression of her probably wasn't fantastic.

I'm still trying to figure out if her neighbor friend Tatyana plays a role in this whole story at all. I'm a little bit suspicious. I don't like the way Tatyana talked to her about sort of mocking the fact that she lost the guy and the dog. That's a red flag to me. I don't know. I'm curious to see how Uma feels when she wakes up and if she decides to just kind of turn over a new leaf and maybe pursue someone new or whether she's going to keep on this path.

Is that how being really high normally works?

I don't know. I don't think so. Tatiana is like, you're such a dumbass. Like, that was not a dream. I was with you. I went with you because you demanded to go into the apartment because you were like, I'm one of the firemen now. And you ate his Pop-Tarts. Like, you ransacked this man's apartment. And Uma's like, no. And Tatiana's like, this poor

guy like he like showed up and you were just eating his pop tarts and I had to be like we're leaving I'm so sorry about my friend who's also your next door neighbor and Uma's like I was just so happy that he was alive and Tatiana was like no one ever thought he was dead in what world was he going to be dead when he was far from the burning apartment in the mac and cheese in no danger yes

And Uba's like, oh my god, I'm so embarrassed. Like, that all makes so much sense. She's like, do you know what happened to him? And Tatiana's like, yeah, he went to get his stuff to move it from the washer to the dryer in the one laundry room that exists, which is far from their apartment. And someone had, like, left their stuff in the dryer. Okay. So he waited, like, 15 minutes for them to come move it.

And they didn't come, so he gave them five more minutes, and then he removed it and put his stuff in and forgot his mac and cheese on the stove. And all of this took place in a 30 minute time period. Okay, he should have just moved it right away. Wait, say more. I mean, they're in this apartment building with really, really limited washers and dryers. I think everyone would understand if the dryer had stopped, it's fair game to just move it at that point. We gotta keep this whole thing moving. You can't be sitting around waiting for 15 minutes for the one dryer. Yeah, exactly.

But he's like, I didn't. He was trying to be nice or whatever. He comes back, this poor guy, right? He comes back and he forgot his mac and cheese on the stove. The firefighters have broken his door. Uma has touched all of his shit and like fed his dog Pop-Tarts. Yeah.

And Uma is like, oh my god, like, this is so embarrassing. I had to live with this man. Like, this is so bad. And Tatiana's like, you were on one, but like, it was funny. Like, everyone could tell that you were just like, extremely hot. That makes it worse. Everyone could tell. She's like, this is awful. But she's also like, this is extremely funny. So Tatiana and Uma are like laughing and laughing and laughing when her phone buzzes.

Uh-oh. And she looks at her phone and she has a text from the sound bath guy. Okay. And he's like, I'm so sorry I didn't hang out. I was really freaked out by the fact that the other apartments caught on fire and you were like so calm about it. Uh-huh. He's like, did you survive this fire? Happy face. Do you text him back? If I'm Uma, of course. She probably invited him right over.

She's like, I did survive. Thank you so much for asking. And he's like, well, do you want to like see each other again?

And she's like, I would love that. Do you want to come over tonight? Oh my God. And he's like, no. Can they go to his house? I'm not coming to your apartment. He's like, can you come to my house? And she's like, yes. So the final update I have for you is that she did go to his house and they did finally bang. Okay. Happy ending for her. Literally. But he didn't have a bed frame. So after that, he's become known as floor mattress man. Ha ha ha.

And wait, do you know, was it just that one time? Was she satisfied? I think it was just that one time. I think it was like she got what she came for, you know? And do we know, did she ever connect with her neighbor at all? She did connect with her neighbor. He like made fun of her and was like, like, like,

Like, lightheartedly. Like, you were so high. And she was like, I brought you new, like, she brought him new Pop-Tarts to be like, I'm sorry. That's really sweet. I think this whole story is about a meet cute with a neighbor. I think so, too. I would like an update. We haven't gotten an update yet. I would love an update. Do you have any final takeaways or morals from this story? Even though I obviously was judging Uma throughout, she made a lot of choices that I didn't think were the best. Yeah.

I think it all goes to show that she followed her heart. She did exactly what she wanted to do in each moment, right? And actually, at the end of the day, she got the outcome that she wanted on date one with Fedora. She did. So I really can't, I mean, I stand corrected. Oh,

Yeah, I stand corrected. I think she was true to herself. She was authentic. And in whatever weird way it worked out for her. It seemed like it turned out okay. Yeah, she made a new connection with her neighbor. Yeah. I still have my eye on Tatiana. I don't know. I think she's a little bit of a shady friend.

But overall, yeah, I think I learned a little something from this story. And I'm happy for Uma. Wow. Janaye, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was a delight to have you. Thank you for having me. This was so much fun. This podcast is produced by Alex Sujong-Loughlin and Ozzy Linus Goodman. Justin Ellis is Defectors Projects Editor. Jasper Wang and Sean Kuhn are Defectors Business Guys. Tom Lay is our Editor-in-Chief. Jay Tolviera is our Associate Producer.

Abigail Siegel is our intern. Dan McQuaid runs our merch store, which you can find at normalgossip.store. Tara Jacoby designed our show art. Thank you to Jasper Wang, Catherine Hsu, Patrick Redford, Israel Daramola, Ray Rado, Chris Thompson, David Roth, Dave McKenna, and Luis Pais Pumar for your help on this season. And thanks to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber-based media company, and Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia.

I'm Kelsey McKinney, and please remember, you did not hear this from me.