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Before we get going today, I wanted to tell you about another Radiotopia podcast you should be listening to, Song Exploder. Song Exploder is an award-winning show about the creative process behind music. Artists break down one of their songs, letting you hear all the different layers in the recording, from instruments to beats to vocals. And most importantly, they talk about why they made the creative choices they did. Song Exploder is not just for music nerds. It's for anybody who cares about creativity or wants to feel inspired to create something.
It's hosted by Rishi Keshe Hiraway, who you might know from the podcast Home Cooking or the West Wing Weekly. The episodes are short, about 20 minutes each, and my recommendation is to start with an episode featuring an artist you love. And then listen to one with an artist you don't know at all. There are over 250 episodes with guests like Fleetwood Mac, Madonna, Solange, Dope.
Billy Eilish, Phoebe Bridgers, FK Twigs, The Killers, Dua Lipa, and John Batiste, and more. Each episode is really a miniature portrait of an artist and how their creative mind works, with the song as the lens we see them through. It's also a great way to discover new music. It's a different kind of experience to get introduced to a song this way, learning how and why each piece and idea came together before you hear the whole song at the end.
Find your favorite episode of Song Exploder and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts or at songexploder.net.
Hi, and welcome to Normal Gossip. I'm Kelsey McKinney, and in each episode of this podcast, we're going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. I am so excited to have with me today, Lindy West and Megan Hatcher-Mays. They are the co-hosts of Text Me Back, a comedy podcast about their deranged best friendship. You can support Text Me Back on Patreon now.
Thank you.
She has published three books, Shit, Actually, as well as the New York Times bestselling memoir, Shrill, Notes from a Loud Woman, and the essay collection, The Witches Are Coming. Her next book, Adult Braces, will be available for pre-order soon. Lindy and Megan, welcome. Thank you.
Thank you. Hello. I'm so excited. This is the best day ever. It's so fun to have friends on here because you guys are already used to gossiping with each other, I think. Oh, hell yeah. Yeah. Very much so. I was just in Seattle visiting Lindy. We did a live show for our podcast, Text Me Back. Cute. And I was visiting her. We went out into her hidden woods locker room.
log cabin of delight. And we just spent the whole time being like, you remember what happened to so-and-so from high school? It was great. It was just like four days of being like,
Wow, what a weird guy that was. It was sensational. I love that. Because your podcast is so much about friendship and your relationship, I was hoping that you could start by talking about how gossip functions between the two of you. How do you send it? What's your favorite kind? Have there been any dramas recently? I feel like I have such a conflicted relationship with gossip.
Not really. It's just like my true self and then my higher self are at war. We're like, there's nothing that I love more than gossip in the world at all. And yet I know that maybe I'm doing something bad. But I will never stop. I would say my favorite kind of gossip is when someone that I hate has
has something bad happen to them. I mean, what's better than that? Like someone that you hate that you don't actually have any close contact with anymore, but then you can detect from the internet that something terrible has happened in their life and then you can sleuth it out. Like that is the greatest feeling. Wait, like, can you give me an example of a way in which you might sleuth out that something bad has happened to someone? Well, you know, like a classic start to this tale would be
I was lurking on my enemy's Instagram. And then I noticed that all the pictures of their husband are gone. Yes. I feel like that's happening for me right now, where I'm like, this person I follow is like, all of a sudden, they're never posting pictures of their husband. They're always like the most special people in my life. And it's like three people I've never seen before. And I'm like, something is going on. I feel like I have to send a DM and be like, how's
going oh my gosh everything looks so cute how's the husband doing well alive answer the question Megan as a lawyer like do you have special powers or can you like get a contact in the courts where your enemy lives and see if like a divorce has been filed laughing
ever like is that a power you have i mean i guess i probably could i feel like tmz does it all the time but i've never i've never done that but now that you mention it just imagine imagine like just munching on the documents i know one of my biggest complaints is that rich people can have like arbitration and not file court documents like i'm like i think this is unfair
I don't think that your money should get to keep your gossip from me. I think I should still get to have it as a treat. I think that's right. As like a little treat. Also, this is not like an original thought, but when someone dies, can you just go ahead and put what they died of in the announcement so that I don't have to be like, so-and-so's name obituary, so-and-so's name cause of death, looking through their Instagram to see, oh, are you donating to any charities that are disease related? And like,
speaking of like my higher self versus my true self that is where I'm most at war is like I need to know and I've actually like left instructions for my spouse I was like if I die before you put in the announcement what I died of don't leave people in suspense it's like the final gift you could give to me is the goss tell them what happened yeah like at least do hashtag like and
or something. I know what it was. I've been doing a lot of Ancestry.com research lately as true Lindy heads know because I won't shut up about it. And that is one thing. I mean, obviously there's a lot of mystery in the past and there's a lot of stuff that I can't uncover. But in the event that I find a newspaper article, the way that these things are written, it gives you the goods. Like I found some, like, I don't know, it was like my husband's
triple great grandmother or something died. You know, this is not even like a person we've ever heard of. I'm sure she was really nice. I don't, I, my higher self again is saying, Lindy, you need to be more delicate with this, but I'm not going to do that. This newspaper article was like, naked woman runs out of burning house on fire, collapses on lawn, screaming, dies screaming while neighbors watch. Like I was like,
Yes! Finally! Saluting your great-great-great-grandmother. Like, thank you. Thank you, Judy! I mean, obviously, great tragedy. I'm so sorry that happened to you. I hope they investigated why your house caught fire and then you caught fire and when no one helped you. Actually, also in my Ancestry.com research, I found a gossip conversation.
a column about my grandparents. Oh, yeah! That's great! Do you want me to read it to you? Yes. Okay, hang on. It's so good. It's so good. Well, her grandpa started the West Coast CBS Radio Bureau or something, so he was like a little bit of a man about town. So people were real interested in his personal life, and it got kind of juicy. And then my grandma was a singer. So first of all, I found this clip of her...
It's a picture of her in the newspaper. And then the caption says, here is the sultry voiced Mona Lowe who turns radio waves into heat waves with the songs her mother never taught her. I was like, excuse me?
Excuse me? Wow. Oh, my God. Grandmother? Where you were singing sex songs on the radio, which I'm sure was like, I tied a red ribbon around my sweet. I showed my kneecaps to my lover. Okay. But so then I find this, it's very short, this little gossip item.
And, like, I didn't know either of these grandparents, because my dad was hella old. This grandfather died in 1953. But then, luckily, there's a record in the newspaper. Thank God. So this says, this must be from, like, 1932 or something, 31. Yeah.
Radio artists in the past have had the habit of running off to get married secretly. Consequently, when Winnie Parker, parentheses Mona Lowe, of NBC, and Paul Rickenbacker, prominent among local announcers – Oh, yeah. West is like Paul Rickenbacker's stage name. Like, it's like not even a real name, and yet – So I should be Lindy Rickenbacker, but I'm not. Yeah.
When Winnie Parker, parentheses Mona Lowe, of NBC and Paul Rickenbacker, prominent among local announcers, were seen together, gossip swept radio circles. Ooh!
Pinned down, Rickenbacker writes this column as follows. Dear Ken, in regard to a rapidly spreading rumor concerning a so-called romance between Mona Lowe or Winnie Parker and myself, a rumor which I have just learned is causing the young lady in question a bit of discomfort.
It is all, shall we say, premature. We are friends. Good friends. But as far as I know, I have not been fortunate enough to believe that it can be called, rightfully, more than just friendship yet. Still, she is a marvelous girl.
That's hot. Sweaty. I know. Like, that's the best thing that's ever happened to me. Can you imagine? It should actually be the law that everyone has a gossip column written about them. Even if it goes into a vault for like two generations. And then your grandchildren get to read it. I guess that's a diary. I guess that's just reading your grandma's journal. Yeah.
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Okay, are the two of you ready to hear the gossip that I have prepared? Yes. Okay, I want to start by asking you both if you have ever been in a group that like ostensibly has a purpose, like a book club, but is like mainly about yapping and drinking. Yes. Yes, absolutely. Many of my jobs. Yes. Yes.
What has your experience in those groups been like? Well, truly, many of my jobs that I've had have become sort of like coffee clutches, I guess, where you sort of like make work besties. I think there's something really special about just like playing Uno and drinking Sauvignon Blanc with your friends after work and being like,
The ops manager is a real bitch. You know, like those sorts of things that can be really, it can really bring you closer with your friends. Yeah, like having been a freelance writer now for like 15 years, sometimes I'm like, I wish I could just work retail like one day a week just for the catharsis of complaining about your manager after work. Yeah.
Okay, today's story is about one of these groups. Okay. But to talk about the drama, we have to go back to its founding. Okay. The year is 1974. Okay. We're talking full skirts, swing coats. Nixon has just finished his presidency. Okay.
Happy Days is on TV. The Godfather Part Two is in theaters and the Ramones have just played their first show. Wow. We're excited. Our story is set in a suburb. It doesn't really matter which one just like somewhere outside of a midsize city. Do either of you want to have a strong preference on which area of the country this should be? The Midwest. Great. It's a suburb in the Midwest. And our friend of a friend today is named Beverly. Ooh, a good Midwestern name.
In 1974, Beverly was 25 years old. That's illegal for Beverly to be 25 years old. But okay. Don't worry, she won't be forever. She had just moved to a new city with her husband for his job. So she has no friends and she has a new baby and she's feeling like alone and scared. It's real like feminine mystique hours up in here. One day she's walking her baby outside, you know, in her little pram and she runs into Mildred.
Mildred is the coolest wife in the neighborhood. She's always dressed in the newest stuff. Her house is immaculate. Her whole kitchen is emerald green. Like the cabinets, the stove, the fridge. Her husband is the HOA president. And she like volunteers for an art board. Right? Like this is the vibe. Beverly has a Cheerio stuck in her hair. But she does not know this. Yeah.
And Mildred does not tell her. Mildred is not a girl's girl. She's not a girl's girl. Yeah, she comes teetering over and she's like, you're Beverly, right? And Beverly's like, yeah, it's so nice to meet you. You're Mildred, right? And Mildred's like, yes. And Mildred's like, are you free tomorrow? And Beverly in her head is like, I'm literally always free. But also I have a baby. How do you handle this?
Oh, man. And it's the 70s. So we can't count on our husbands to take care of our kid for us for a night, can we? No, you cannot. So the question is, what do I do with my baby? Because I really want to be friends with Mildred. Yeah, just leave the baby home alone. 1974, just put the baby in your car. It's fine. Yeah, that's what they used to do. Do you have like a Rottweiler that can watch the baby? Yeah.
Beverly's like, I would love to come. Like, I'd love to hang out with you, but I need to like watch my baby. I don't have anyone to watch the baby. And Mildred is like, no, no, no, no, no, no. You have to come. My husband is going to talk to your husband and your husband is going to watch the baby. Oh, okay. And Beverly's like, what? Mildred is like one night a month. All the husbands in this neighborhood watch the babies. And that is our night to get our sanity back.
Oh, wow. Okay. Well, I'm liking that. I'm like, I like I like the concept. I'm worried about the execution. Yes, I guess we'll see. Beverly in her head is like, well, that's very modern. She's a little nervous. But she's also like, I would love to have a night away from my baby meet some friends. She's like, all right, if you say it'll work, it'll work. Yeah. Mildred's like, you don't need to be nervous. Like everybody's nervous their first time.
Okay. Okay. What a phrase. What a phrase, Mildred. She's like, but once you get the hang of it, like you just won't want to stop. You're going to love it. What is it? What? Mildred? Beverly's like, okay. And Mildred is like, okay, so it's at my house. It's at this time. It's tomorrow. She's like, one more thing. It's Greek themed. So I need you to wear a toga.
She needs to get out of there. Mildred is some... No. There's some eyes wide shut business going on. You must be careful. The request to wear a toga. I feel like I don't know how to put myself into the brain of Beverly. Yes. Because if it was me, I would say, what? I would be like, what is this? I mean, I would ask follow-up questions and I would hit Mildred with my bag. Yeah.
Why are you speaking in Altaundra? It's weird. This is all reasonable. That's not what happens. That sounds great. I'll see you then. Sure. So the next day she spends like 30 minutes, you know, safety pinning herself into a toga, which is like lucky she has lots of safety pins because it's cloth diaper era. She arrives at Mildred's house and there are 11 women already there.
All of them are in togas. Okay, at least it wasn't a prank where none of them are in togas. That's true. It could have been hazing, but they're all in togas. Okay. There are dips and spreads on all the tables. Okay, well then I'm sold. Never mind. Sure. Sorry I beat Mildred with my fingers.
Because I like snacks. Yeah. And there's like a fake statue, like a fake marble statue in the middle of the room. Like they have gone all out for this theme. Mildred's house is decorated. And all of these women are so happy to meet her. They're like, hello, like welcome to the neighborhood. We're so happy to meet you. We're so happy you're here. Beverly is like the center of attention. There is also so much white wine. Just like cases of white wine at this event. Oh my god.
How do you maneuver this? Like, how are you going to make friends? Well, we got to go get a glass. We got to go get a Bevragino. We got to start because something weird is happening. And some might say coping with alcohol, bad idea. But I don't know. That would be my first stop would be the white wine table. The white wine keg. I understand being intimidated by Mildred, hottest wife in the neighborhood. Once you're at
the party, everyone's mingling and wearing a toga. Can't you sniff out someone that you're not scared of and be like, what's happening? Yes. She goes and gets her wine. Smart. She like finds some woman. We'll call her Louise. She's like, Louise, I don't know what I'm doing here. What are we doing? And Louise is like, oh my God, you're fine. You're going to love it. What? More mystery? And Beverly's like, love what? And at this point, Mildred is like, dinner. So they all have to sit.
There are three tables that are all set for dinner. There is a big salad. There's dips. There's chicken. There's baklava. Ooh. It is a whole spread. Beverly's like, this rules. Like, all I had to do was put on a toga and show up, and now I'm being fed a, like, three-course Greek dinner. Okay. The dishes get cleared, and then a gong is... What?
Run, Beverly, run! Was it common practice to just have a gong in the home in the 70s? It is like a tabletop gong. Like, it's not like a giant, I want to be clear, it's not like a four foot tall gong. It's not an industrial gong? It's a portable, modest gong. It's a modest gong, exactly. Do either of you know what bunco is? No. It's like a game, right? Yes. Yes.
We are here to play Bunko. Okay. Bunko is sometimes referred to as the housewife's drinking game. Yes.
I have heard of this. Women in this club are like, we love Bunko. It's so much better than book club because you don't have to read anything. I agree. That's true. Yes. The way Bunko works is that it's a game of chance, a game of luck. So each round, you're trying to roll a specific number. So round one, you're trying to roll a one. Each person gets three dice and you roll your three dice. If any of them is a one, you get one point. And you get to roll again.
If none of them are a one, then the next person at your table goes and they roll their dice. The first person at your table to get to 21 points wins that round. Okay. Okay. Okay.
The easiest way to win a round of Bunko is to have all three of your dices be the same number that the round is. So all ones in round one. And then you get to yell Bunko, and then you get 21 points in the round end. And each game of Bunko has six rounds. So it's like each side of the dice, right? You're going for ones, then for twos, then for threes, etc., etc., etc.
At the end of the game, all your scores are added up and a winner is declared. So is there a drinking component built into the game or is it just like you're drinking wine while you Bunko? You're just like drinking while you Bunko. But the other thing is that even though Bunko is completely luck and chance, it is a game for gambling. Yeah.
So there is a $5 buy-in in 1974. Wow. That's like $87 now. I would like for the two of you to tell me how the other one of you plays games. Oh, we were just talking about this. Yeah. Well, Lindy loves games, but she's not competitive. Okay. So I think she likes, like you really like. I love a co-op.
You're having a nice time. We're together. Sorry to interrupt you, Megan, but I just want to say, I just want to add that I'm kind of good at games. Like, I feel like I have a sharp...
I have like a sharp mind. I don't want to brag, but I'm really good at games. No, this is like a curse because as soon as I start to win a game, I feel horrible. And I'm just like, I'm sorry. Like every good move I make, like I play cards a lot. I love to play cards. And like, I hate, I honestly hate winning because I feel so bad. Like, I feel like I'm doing something bad to the other person.
Meanwhile, Megan. I'm a demon. I don't want to lose anything. I am a sore loser. I hate losing. I love to win. The thing is, I just feel like it's illegal for me to lose.
Oh. A game. Like, if I lose Uno, don't talk to me for a week. I'm so mad about it. I don't have that feeling Lindy has at all. I'm like, gotcha. It feels amazing. Incredible. I love it. I love these, the angel and demon on the shoulders of gaming. Truly. Our girls begin playing Bunko. They're rolling, rolling, rolling. I want you to imagine how loud this is. There are three tables. All of them are rolling dice and yelling. Okay.
Yeah, they do the first round. They do the second round. On the third round, Beverly rolls three fours. And she's like, bunco. And everyone at her table is like, oh, no, no, no, sweetie. That's not bunco. It's round three. And you rolled fours. That's baby bunco. Oh. Baby bunco is when you get three of the same number, but it's the wrong round. So you only get five points instead of 21. Okay.
Okay. Getting baby bunkos is also a way to win because at the end of the night, there are three ways to get money out of this game. To have the highest points total across all the games.
to have the most baby bunkos, or to have the lowest points total. Ooh, that's me. That's for me. If you get the lowest points total, you get the smallest monetary prize, obviously, but you also have to take home a booby prize that, like, everyone brings that has to be related to the theme. So, like, for this week's theme, there are, like, 12 jars of pimento olives. Oh.
So Phyllis wins the booby prize. She has to take home all the jars of olives. Our girl Bev wins most baby bunkos. So she's like, this is a huge day. I'm so proud of her. That sounds fun as hell. I'm ready to be bunkified. I'm changing. This is changing my life.
in this moment from here on out I am changed and you know I have just moved into a rural community with I might be the bunco they literally have game night at the community center oh maybe it's time to shine oh my god yeah Megan how are you feeling I'm still feeling nervous okay I'm feeling worried there's like a there's like an unsettling energy hovering over this game of bunco and
I, although I'm really proud of Beverly for her baby bunco victories, I'm unsettled, but proud. Okay.
Bev does not have any of these worries. She is drunk on white wine. She has 30 more dollars than she came with. She's thrilled. She goes home and her husband is like so happy to see her. He's like, you seem so happy. And she's like, yeah, I have friends now. Like, this is huge for me. And he's like, I'm so happy for you. And she's like, how was it? And he's like, it was fine. Unfortunately, the baby died while you were gone. Yeah.
I don't know how to do this. Unfortunately, who knows where our child is?
No, it went fine. The baby was fine. The way Bunko works as a group is there are 12 members and each member hosts one month. Okay. Okay. So month one was at Mildred's house. Month two is at Louise's house. Question. Did someone die and that's how Bev got a spot? Great question. The only way to get a spot is if someone leaves. So someone moved. Okay. Not quite as dramatic as someone dying. Yeah. But someone moved. Okay.
So she's now into this group. The next month is at Louise's house. Louise is like, hey, can you come over early to help me set up? And Beverly's like, oh my God, I would love to. I would love to make a friend. So she goes over early. They're gabbing. Louise is like, hey, can you go get the bunco box? And Beverly's like, what's a bunco box? The bunco box is a box that goes from house to house. So if it's your month to do bunco, you get the bunco box. Inside the bunco box are score sheets,
and tiny pencils, and the tabletop gong, and wine openers. Also in the Bunko box is the Bunko book. The Bunko book, it's the 70s, is a scrapbook. Yes.
where the score sheets and who won goes on a page and like any Polaroids from that night and the theme. Ooh. Does the host of the month get to pick the theme or is the theme community? Okay. Your house, your rules. I love it. Okay. So Louise's house's rules is this month it is Godfather Part 2 themed. Oh,
There's red sauce pasta. There's only candles. There's like mood music, dark lighting, like they're eating meatballs, right? Like everyone's having a great time. This month, Mildred wins. Bev wins nothing. Phyllis again gets biggest loser.
Fucking Phyllis. Truly. The next month is Bev's month to host because she has just slotted in. They threw her right in, yeah. She slotted in. It's like, well, you know, whatever month it is. So-and-so had March. You're so-and-so now. So what's your theme? I don't know. I'm a weirdo. So I would do, like, snakes. And then...
I would like make a meatloaf shaped like a rat. So don't ask. Don't ask me. Incredible. And I think you should absolutely start a bunco club like you're ready. I think Bev should stay true to her heart. Like, I don't know what Bev's hobbies and interests are, you know? Bev does exactly what you do. And she's like, what are my interests? And then she's like, do any of the things that I like rhyme? And the theme she comes up with is flip flops and lemon drops.
So everyone will wear flip-flops and everyone will drink lemon drop martinis. Honestly, that's cute. It's beautiful. Yeah, that's pretty cute. Yeah, I like that. The ladies of Bunko love this. They're like, this is so creative. We're having a cocktail. Everyone's wearing flip-flops, which is so scandalous. Like, you know what I'm talking about?
The reason this story starts in 1974 is that this group does not break up. Wow. Like the core members of this group stay the same, plus or minus two people who moved or died. Wow. It is still together. Oh, whoa. That's awesome. That's so cute. And they're still bunkoing? They're still bunkoing. Oh my gosh.
I had unsettling energy. That's so cute. If the story never takes a turn to the dark side, they're just still like, I didn't say that. Oh! Oh!
Wait, I don't apologize for saying they have unsettling energy. They had so many themes over their sweet 50 years together. They had a Ghostbusters theme where everyone had to wear a little backpack. They had an Animal House theme where they got a keg. They had Grease Lightning theme where everyone had huge hair. They've done Y2K. They've done Britney Spears. They've done Survivor. They've done Shrek. They've done The Notebook. And most recently, they did Vanderpump Rules. Oh, yes!
That's amazing. Because they've been doing this for 50 years, they've also run out of creative themes. So they've also had themes like teapots and cats and pennies. Pennies? Everyone has to eat pennies instead of drinking. Yummy. So is it...
against the rules to repeat a theme or is it just a matter of pride? It's not against the rules to repeat a theme. I was told that some people in this group have a theme that everyone loves so much that they do the same theme every single year. That's their special theme. That's cute. But some people are just having fun. They want a new theme. It's exciting. You got to mix it up a little when you've been friends for 50 years. Yeah. Over the years in this group, there were many, many dramas.
Someone's husband died and then she became a floozy. Ooh! That's what I'm living for. Yeah. That's what I like. I love that. Someone's daughter and son dated for a long time and they got engaged and then they broke it off. Ooh! Oh, no! One night, Mildred had a big interview, so she left early and then all of the Bunko Babes TP'd her house. Oh!
Oh, I want to join this group so bad. I feel like this is truly the key to life. You know what I mean? These ladies are staying young. I mean, I've never done anything as young and vibrant as TP someone's house. Another drama for you to weigh in on is one member died. Sad. Everyone was sad. But then there was a huge drama over who to replace her with because they were like, well, we've had this regular sub who's come in for years who we really like.
But the person who died had a sister and the sister really wants to be in Bunko, but we hate her. Great. Oh, my God. You have to. Well, oh, God. You cannot bring someone that you hate into the sacred Bunko. Absolutely not. Have some boundaries. Have some boundaries, Beverly and Mildred. I'm sorry for her shitty sister's feelings, but you cannot ruin the sanctity of the Bunko babes with somebody with boundaries.
Come on, though. Yeah, they did not allow the sister in. They were like, sorry, but we already have someone for that seat. Our sub. Yeah, nice.
But like any big group, the major dramas are one thing, but it's the minor dramas that start to really make you crazy, right? Like Louise's Bunko always started late, which made everyone up late and then they were grumpy the next day. Louise. Louise. Mildred was always pouring cocktails at like twice the amount of alcohol there should be in there. So everyone would be absolutely trashed and then wake up with a hangover. I don't see how that's a problem.
Leave Mildred alone. And Phyllis was just like a bad host. Right? Like she was never ready on time. She had no themes. She was just like opening bags of chips and being like, let's go. Serving a bowl of pennies for dinner. She was
She lost every single time. She was terrible and she was bad at hosting. You know what? One thing that really bothers me is when, as a host, you feel like you've gone above and beyond. Like, if you're in sort of like a communal thing like that and you feel like you're giving it your all and then you feel like you kind of like a free rider problem, like Phyllis is like kind of riding the coattails of the rest of the group, that would bother me. I was like, no, we're all in this together, Phyllis. But if it's like Phyllis has a genuine deficiency where she cannot host good...
But she's like really, really fun. Yeah. Like I feel like that's where the beauty of community comes in where it's like, okay, there's 11 other Bunko players. Maybe we just know that Phyllis's month is,
we're gonna bring like you know a bag of mini twix to the party just to you know like we're gonna just pull together and like zhuzh up phyllis's shitty party so that just for the benefit of all and to because phyllis needs a little bit of extra support because yeah she's a loser for 50 years yeah she
needs 50 years of extra support. The other problem is that you know when you have close friends and it's like they're doing something that annoys you but you know them so well that you're like I know why you're doing this thing. Yeah. Like everyone in this group is like Phyllis has three kids and like a shit husband. Like she can't help it. This is just like her lot. This group has gone through everything together.
They went through Harvey Wallbangers and piña coladas and wine coolers and Long Island iced teas and Cosmos. There were two months where they tried Four Locos, which almost killed the Bungo group. I like that they went back and did it again. Yeah. One's a fluke. That's true. The real drama in this story begins around 2018. ♪
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At this point, we know some truths. Like Phyllis's husband has died and she's still terrible at hosting. So we know that that's just a personality trait. Uh-oh.
She still loses all the time. It's a game of chance, Phyllis. How are you so bad at this? One pretty cute thing that happens with the Bunko group is over time they all move out of their like suburb that they lived in and into a retirement community. Stop. They all live in the same retirement community. Stop. Oh, my God. I love it. Yeah.
One thing that's important about this group that we haven't brought up yet is that if you can't go for whatever reason to Bunko that month, it is your job to find your replacement. Okay. Because they need 12 people. Yeah. Like, you want the three tables. You want people to be able to move up and down based on the table. Like, you can't just have three people at one table. That's not allowed. Right. So one night a few years ago, Beverly had to go to her youngest daughter's big career event, and it was on the same night as Bunko. Wow.
So she needs a sub. How do you find a sub? You're in your mid to late 70s. We have a finite group to choose from at the nursing home. Your group dwindles every year. Are you allowed to choose a man as your sub?
Oh, great question. Once this group allowed husbands to come and it went so poorly that they banned all men. Phenomenal. Yes, I love that. That's great. Yeah. Thank you for asking. Are there any...
nurses who have a good vibe at the home. Get a little younger energy. I would like to present myself to the world as a
professional bunco substitute for hire. You know? That's right. So you're a volunteering institute. I do. Yeah. Can you imagine like if you were just like top of the roster and you were going to buncos all over town? Yeah. Oh my God. I would love that. Yeah. That's a dream.
Beverly starts calling all her daughters. Beverly's like, are any of you available to come do my bunco group? Right? Because her daughters have like subbed in at various times over the course of 50 years. None of her daughters are available. But her oldest daughter is like,
What about my oldest daughter, Michelle? Yes. Like she's in her 20s now. Huge day for Michelle. Oh my god. What if Michelle went to Bunko Night? She's been hearing about it for years. She's so lucky. I'm so excited for Michelle. I mean, like, I just hope Michelle doesn't fuck this up. Michelle, this is your moment. Michelle, get in your car. Go to the retirement community. Stop at the liquor store and get over there immediately. This is huge. This is
This is major. So Michelle shows up to the Wonder Woman themed Bunko Night. Yes.
no idea what's going on. She's like, well, prayers up that this goes okay. Does she know any of these women? Are these her grandma's friends that she knows? Yes. She knows, I would say, at least 60% of these women from various Beverly events. Great. But she's met these women in the context of baby showers, birthday parties, weddings, and tonight they are absolutely fucking trashed. She's like, this is...
crazy like all of my grandma's friends are wasted beyond belief and they keep bringing Michelle drinks she's in her 20s she has two and she's like I'm drunk like
I have to spend the night at the retirement community. I can't go home like this. She's like, these women are like truly Bill different. So now she's like tipsy, trying to understand the rules of bunko. You know, the gong is going off. People are yelling baby bunko. There's dice sounds everywhere. She's so confused. How do you handle this? What's your move here to figure out what's going on?
I'm stressed just hearing about it. Yeah, I would be stressed, but I would just be I would just be chaotically throwing dice like Mildred. Is this right? Louise, what's going on? Like, I would feel very strongly that I would not want to give up. Like, I feel like I'd be fighting for the honor of my family, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Well, you have to win. This one's for Beverly. Yeah. Like, this one's for Bev. She vouched for me.
I have to take this seriously. I guess I have to keep drinking espresso martinis. And I'm not giving up. I'm just going to keep throwing the dice until somebody says something. Because, you know, this is about like family pride now. Honor. Yeah, honor. Yeah. What Michelle does is she's like, I'll watch other people. And that will help me like understand what's going on, right? I'll like bond with the ladies at my table. I'm going to watch what they do. And then I'll just copy it. And they'll tell me what to do.
She's trying to learn. She gets like three twos in the first round and she's like, Bunko. And the ladies are like, no, girl, that's baby Bunko. That's baby Bunko, idiot. And then they're all like, oh, my God, she's just like her grandma. I was just going to say, like, wow, it's giving Beverly in 1974. She's in her Beverly era. Now I have a question for the two of you. Have you ever cheated at a game? Oh, yeah.
Say more. Yeah. I try to think of a specific moment, but it's just like, I hate losing. I hate it. It's so annoying. And I remember I was playing a game. This is when I was like a kid. I was playing a game with my grandma. I want to say it was like, she taught me how to play Rummy, my grandma. Oh, that's a great game. Yeah, it's a great game. And my grandma was a sweet, like sugar and spice Christian woman. You know, never raised her voice. She was so, so kind. But when this woman...
Sat down at the Rummy tables. She just like became a card shark. She was no longer Joyce Mays. She was somebody else entirely. She's wearing sunglasses. She's like doing weird tricks with the shuffle, like throwing them all around. And I was like, ah. So she taught me how to play Rummy. And there was this one thing where it's like, if one card was just in one place, I could have won the game. But it wasn't. It was like too far back or whatever it was. And I was like, I wish I could just grab this. And she was like, would you feel better?
If you cheated. And I just remember being like, yes. I was like, I want to, I want to beat you so bad. You're so good at this. And you're so intense. I just, I just want to win one time just to know what it's like. If I have to cheat. Yeah. Yeah. But of course to her face, I was like,
Oh, no, I feel horrible. Yeah, no, of course I would never, I would never cheat, cheat at cards, but you know, so she got me. Lindy, I couldn't do it. I can't even, I have the shame that I feel from winning fairly. I just couldn't do it.
Michelle is paying closer attention than anyone else at this table, right? Because she doesn't know what's going on at all. And she's had two extremely strong cocktails. So she's like gripping the table, paying attention. And after the first round, she notices that Phyllis erases some of the points on her score sheet. Oh!
Wait, Phyllis erases some of Michelle's points? Some of her own points. Some of her own points. Phyllis! Wait, but isn't it good to get points? Oh no, but if you get the least points, then you get the olives! Oh my god, that little scammer. Is this how Phyllis keeps getting the booby prize? For seven years?! Phyllis! Yes? You little minx! What? I can't believe it!
They defended Phyllis! Shitty parties and bad snacks! Oh my god! Whoa! Oh my god! At the end of the night, Phyllis wins Biggest Loser again. And she gets her little monetary cash prize and she gets a little stupid Wonder Woman figurine or whatever. You little asshole! Oh!
I can't believe it. So now the question is, you have been invited into your grandmother's sacred space with all of her friends. And you have learned that Phyllis is cheating. You've uncovered a fraud. You have what you've done. You have the power. You have the power to bring the whole thing crashing down. You have the power to bring the bunco babes to their knees. I mean, really what I would do is I would talk to my grandma and I would tell Bev and let Bev decide what to do.
And then maybe Bev confronts Phyllis privately and is like, you gotta stop this. Well, it's interesting because then it's like a matter of trust, you know? Because it's like, well, Michelle, you sure did have a lot of espresso martinis. Are you sure about what you saw? There could be some gaslighting going on in this group that's been around for 50 years. Oh, yeah. Maybe it's like they need to do a sting operation where next time Bev brings her own glass that has a hole at the bottom. Yeah.
So she's like pretending to drink, but she's really watching. Whoever picks the theme for the next one, it's like the theme is there's no prize for the loser. That's the theme. The theme is honesty. And all 11 women turn to Phyllis and make eye contact with her.
Grandma Bev calls Michelle the next day. She's like, how was it? Michelle's like, my head hurts so much. And Grandma Bev's like, oh, that's so nice. And she's like, oh, yeah, I had a great time. But she's like, you know, I did notice something. I don't really know for sure what I saw. But like, I'm pretty sure that I saw Phyllis at my table erasing points that she had scored during Bunko.
And her grandma is like, but you don't even really understand the rules of bunco. Gaslighting. And Michelle's like, you know what? That's a really good point. Her grandma's like, I don't know that I can like do anything with information that you got on like 16 espresso martinis. Having no idea what the rules are. She's like, but thank you so much for letting me know. She's not doing conflict. She's not talking to Phyllis.
Nothing is going to happen here. Yeah, it's important to remember that this is Bev we're talking about. And this is Bev. This is not Mildred. Big Bev. It's not Mildred. Exactly. A whole year passes. She kept that secret for a whole year? A whole year. Again, Beverly comes to Michelle and is like, I can't go this month. Do you want to go?
So you're Michelle. You've been given the option to go again. Are you going again? Hell yeah. Yeah, of course. Now I have unfinished business. Yeah. You know what I mean? How are you going to use this night to find out? I'm going to vindicate myself. I have been called a liar by my own grandmother. That's right.
I've been attacked. I've been gaslit. I've been attacked. I've been thrown under the bus and I won't stand for it. I'm sitting right fucking next to Phyllis and I'm like, hi, Phyllis. I'm just going to be watching. I'm still getting my sea legs, you know, with Bunko. I'll just be paying real close attention to what you're doing. You know what I mean? Just let her know you've got your eyes on her. And then I'd be like, Mildred, back me up. Yeah.
Michelle goes. She has her little drinks. She keeps her eyes wide open. She doesn't start at Phyllis's table, but when she ends up next to her, she is like a hawk, like 100% focused on Phyllis's scorecard. And she notices that it's not only at the end of every round. It's during the round that Phyllis is erasing points while people are focused on the dice. How has no one ever noticed this? This is diabolical. This is...
This is diabolical. Phyllis wins biggest loser. Oh, my God. At the end of the night, the host of this month's thing is like, hey, Michelle, your grandma is supposed to host next month. Could you take the bunco box for her to hand it off to her? Hell yeah, I will.
Michelle is like, it is time to become a woman in STEM. She's like, I have the Bunko book, which is now like several Bunko books, right? Because it's been 50 years. It has all the payouts on it. Yeah. It has how many times these people have won. It has like who won what. So she's, it's like spotlight hours, right? Like she is focused. She's got a spreadsheet. She's assembled her investigation team. Yes. She learns...
that Phyllis has won Biggest Loser eight or nine times every single year for 50 years. You guys! Which means that she has won more than 20,000 times. No!
She's such a scammer. Plus all the booby prizes. Oh my God. If I'm Phyllis, on some level, am I not like, wow, this is what you all think of me? You think I'm this big of a fucking loser? I know. I lose 75% of Bunko Games? Yes.
That's $20,000? $20,000. Oh my god. Oh my god. This is unbelievable. I don't even know what to say. I truly am like stunned. What do you do? I just... God.
That what a breach of trust by Phyllis. It's crazy. She's been scamming her best friends for 50 years with like no remorse. I don't know. I mean, as a person who's bad with money, I would have, I would probably be like, yeah,
yeah, you know, I get $5 a month or whatever for 50 years. That probably adds up to like, what? Like $25? $800? Yeah. Like she probably has no idea of the magnitude. That's true. Actually, I was just thinking like she probably doesn't even know. She probably hasn't done the math herself and it's probably not like she's taking the bunco money and like investing it in the stock market. It's not like she has like an IRA. Using it to buy cigarettes. Oh my god.
There's no chance she has a secret savings account with half a million dollars in it, all from her ill-gotten bunco gains. But I just remember the detail about how Phyllis is a shitty host. She's not even pulling her weight. It just feels like such a great...
It's also, may I say, very funny. It's so funny that Phyllis did this for 50 years and it took, you know. Until Michelle showed up. Yeah. No one noticed. Young buck, fresh energy in the game to be like. Her eyes are good. Yeah. She can see stuff. Her metabolism processes alcohol quicker. Yeah. You know.
Michelle is like, I'm going back to my grandmother. Yeah, I think you have to. She's also like, I have to take her this Bungo box so that she can post the next month. So I have to see her anyway. So she goes over there and she's like, Grandma Bev, listen, I did some math based on the Bungo scorecards and I found, you know, this data that shows that Phyllis is winning biggest loser at the Bungo games eight or nine times a year.
And Bev's like, oh, yeah, Phyllis. She's always just been terrible with the dice. Just awful luck. And Michelle is like, I thought you might say that. So I've prepared a PowerPoint. And then she opens the PowerPoint. And she's like, listen to me. You will have to be unbelievably lucky for this to happen. She's like, this is like picking out a specific atom from all the atoms of the humans on Earth.
The odds of this happening are so low. Michelle's like, she would be several hundred times more likely to win the lottery multiple times in a row than she would have been to win this many times. Oh my God. That is crazy. And this is enough for Beverly. So she is like, it is time.
And she tells a few of the ladies in her group. And there is not any forward conflict because that's how these ladies are. They begin to like kind of ice out Phyllis, right? Like at Phyllis's next hosting month, no one brings extra snacks. So then it's like very poorly hosted. Hell yeah. No one throws Phyllis's grandbaby a baby shower. Oh, the baby's being punished. That's how you know they're pissed. Old ladies. Oh, sorry. Older...
Gals, love a baby shower. They're not going to miss one. And they didn't throw one for your little grandbaby. Ooh, Phyllis, you're in trouble. I will now quote from the person who sent this in. The rumors will continue to swirl. The old white ladies will continue to act like old white ladies. And they'll be stuck in an inescapable Samuel Beckett style loop of scandal, gossip, rumor, and orthotic shoes. That's right. But then we got another email. Stop. Oh my God. That's like something has happened.
The women realized that Phyllis was still winning. She's still winning Biggest Loser this whole time, at every bunco night. Phyllis. And finally, somebody told Mildred.
You should have gone to Mildred in the first place. And Mildred has sent a scathing email that Bev forwarded to Michelle so that she could see it. That is like, there has been cheating in this group. We will not stand for this. It does not name Phyllis.
Yeah. But it is very clear, like, we will not stand for this. This is a violation of the group rules. Like, this is embarrassing. You are an adult woman. It also implements a new scoring system. The new scoring system is that the person to your right keeps your score. Genius. Oh, that's true. Yeah. They institute these new rules. Two Bunko Knights, Phyllis wins nothing.
Got her. Michelle's like, well, well, well, isn't that interesting? For the first time in like 50 years, this woman has not won in any categories.
We are almost at the very end. How do you feel? Whose side are you on? Okay. First of all, I want to apologize for thinking this was going to turn into some weird sex dungeon eyes wide shut. I'm so sorry. I thought that. This kicks ass. This is the best thing I've ever heard in my life. I love everything about it. Bev and Mildred rock. I'm obsessed with them. And I'm
Shout out to Michelle. Is there anything more satisfying than solving a mystery? No. Oh, so good. I love her. I love that for her. I love that she is like carrying on the tradition of Bunko. Even if this had all gone well, it's cute that she got to like carry on the tradition of Bunko for Bev, with Bev and with Bev's friends. But the fact that she got to solve a mystery and that there was a fraud. Oh, it's so good. I hope.
Phyllis gets taken down. And I do believe she deserves a confrontation. I believe Mildred should confront. Ooh. What if Phyllis gets kicked out and Michelle gets to be a permanent member of Bonko? Whose side are you both on? Michelle and Mildred. And I guess Bev. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I'm just... Like, look, as much as I admire the...
Like, I admire the moxie. I do not support weasel behavior. 50 years of being a weasel to your dearest friends and potentially your only friends. How many friends does Phyllis has friends to burn? I don't believe it. Not with that attitude. Not with that behavior. I mean, honestly, it's like disturbing. And I feel like what is wrong with Phyllis?
Do you want my final update? Yes. Yes. Okay. So Michelle, this bothers Michelle. Like it bothers her that she kept playing and kept winning, that it took months before Mildred like found out, right? She's like, all of this is a little weird. And when she had gone, you know, spotlight mode, she had only done that on Phyllis's scores.
Oh, no. She goes back. Oh, my God. Oh, Michelle. She starts looking at erasing marks. She starts looking at like who's won when. Oh, my God. She starts looking at like how many things people have rolled. Great. And she found out that every single person in this group except for Mildred was cheating. Great. Oh, my God. All of them. That's the best outcome. All of them. Great. I love it. This is perfect because now the group never has to break up. Yeah.
This is so cute. Honestly, they're just drunk bitches having the time of their lives. It's so cute. The way that Michelle figured this out is that she was like...
everybody seems to be rolling a lot of baby bunkos. Yeah. Like way more baby bunkos than they should be rolling. And she does the data and it's like everybody for years has just been marking extra baby bunkos onto their little tally sheets. Like sometimes it doesn't even add up with the points in the round. They're just like, mark, mark, mark, more baby bunkos for me. I love it. So because everyone was cheating at baby bunkos, what happened is they all kind of canceled each other out. Oh my God.
And so Phyllis was playing like a metagame where she was like just the smartest cheater because she was the only one going for lowest score. Okay. This kicks ass. This is so funny. I love it. I just, now I'm wondering like what was going through Bev's mind when Michelle was like, I've uncovered a cheat. I wonder if Bev was like, oh shit, she found out about me. That's why she was like,
I'll handle it. I'll do nothing. Exactly. That's so funny. Now, I've established that I am a cheater. And so I just would like to say from a cheater's perspective, I bet it felt great. I bet it felt amazing. I like that when they were like either adding little baby bunkos or erasing other rolls. And then they got their little jar of olives. A win's a win. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I would have felt, I personally would have felt amazing. Yeah.
Even if I, especially if I cheated one, because it's sort of like, gotcha, you know?
There's also, there's an angle where like, you know, like you said, Phyllis is playing a meta game. It's like, if everyone is cheating, then cheating is part of the game. And so it's sort of like... Then the house rules are cheating. Yeah, exactly. Then it's just like Mildred is like doing a self-own, like, you know, get, you're not even playing the game right. You know what I mean? Yeah. The updates, the very final updates I have for you is that this group is still intact and together. Right.
They are still bunkoing to this day. They used Mildred's rules for like two months and then they decided it wasn't as fun. And they went back. I told you. Cheating rocks. So fun. You know what?
I love it. I love it. I take back how scandalized I was about Phyllis. Yeah. This is amazing. Lydia and Megan, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was a delight to have you. Thank you. That story is better than I could have ever dreamed. Thank you so much. I'm so, I've had the time of my life. I'm so happy.
This podcast is produced by Alex Sujong-Loughlin and Ozzy Linus Goodman. Justin Ellis is Defectors Projects Editor. Jasper Wang and Sean Kuhn are Defectors Business Guys. Tom Lay is our Editor-in-Chief. Jay Tolviera is our Associate Producer.
Abigail Siegel is our intern. Dan McQuaid runs our merch store, which you can find at normalgossip.store. Tara Jacoby designed our show art. Thank you to Jasper Wang, Catherine Hsu, Patrick Redford, Israel Darimola, Ray Rado, Chris Thompson, David Roth, Dave McKenna, and Luis Pais Pumar for your help on this season. And thanks to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber-based media company, and Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia.
I'm Kelsey McKinney, and please remember, you did not hear this from me. Radiotopia from PRX.
