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Before we get going today, I wanted to tell you about another Radiotopia podcast you should be listening to, Song Exploder. Song Exploder is an award-winning show about the creative process behind music. Artists break down one of their songs, letting you hear all the different layers in the recording, from instruments to beats to vocals. And most importantly, they talk about why they made the creative choices they did. Song Exploder is not just for music nerds. It's for anybody who cares about creativity or wants to feel inspired to create something.
It's hosted by Rishi Keshe Hiraway, who you might know from the podcast Home Cooking or the West Wing Weekly. The episodes are short, about 20 minutes each, and my recommendation is to start with an episode featuring an artist you love. And then listen to one with an artist you don't know at all. There are over 250 episodes with guests like Fleetwood Mac, Madonna, Solange, Dope.
Billy Eilish, Phoebe Bridgers, FK Twigs, The Killers, Dua Lipa, and John Batiste, and more. Each episode is really a miniature portrait of an artist and how their creative mind works, with the song as the lens we see them through. It's also a great way to discover new music. It's a different kind of experience to get introduced to a song this way, learning how and why each piece and idea came together before you hear the whole song at the end.
Find your favorite episode of Song Exploder and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts or at songexploder.net.
Hi, and welcome to Normal Gossip. I'm Kelsey McKinney, and in each episode of this podcast, we're going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. I am so excited to have with me today, Elise Hu. Elise is the host of TED Talks Daily and a host at large at NPR, as well as the author of Flawless, Lessons in Looks and Culture from the K-Beauty Capital, which is based on her years as a foreign correspondent in Seoul, South Korea. And she's also the host of the show, The K-Beauty Capital, which is based on her years as a foreign correspondent in Seoul, South Korea.
Previously, Elise helped found the Texas Tribune, a nonprofit digital startup. She is a graduate of the University of Missouri Columbia Journalism School, and she lives in Los Angeles with her three daughters. Elise, welcome.
Thank you so much. I'm super caffeinated and ready to go. Hell yeah. Elise, we are both Texas girls. We're from almost the same place. I wonder, do you think that there's anything distinctive about the way Texans gossip? It's more physical. It's the knee slapping. It's the kind of leaning in.
I think the physicality is really special. I think there's a certain gameness among my Texas girls and Texas guys when we share stories. Yeah, I think for me, I live in Philadelphia now, and it's the first place I've lived since growing up in Texas that
has like a volume that's way higher, right? Like it's just louder. Like people are just yelling and I don't really know why, but I feel like that's connected to what you're saying. This kind of like exuberance of gossip and excitement. You have three daughters. That's right. How do you think about talking to them about gossip? I have a tween now. My oldest daughter is 11.
And she is in that time. It all started around fourth grade, but I think it gets worse in fifth grade and then in middle school where people are starting to be very judgy with one another and talking behind each other's backs. And I try not to intervene. And the reason I try not to intervene is because I want her to not have or get used to the idea of an adult swooping in and helping them with their interpersonal issues.
Right. I try to be the person that she can talk to. I just don't want us to have the kind of relationship where she feels like she has to keep things from me or keep everything from me. And so usually when she does share, I'm like, thank you so much for sharing and try not to have an opinion. Though she would tell you the opposite. She would be like, oh, every time I tell you anything, you launch into a lecture. So...
Let's just be realistic about how our perceptions of the situation are different. But I just try and tell her, like, look, I don't care who your friends are. Like, you can choose who your friends are, but there is no quarter for a lack of kindness. So what I want to do is just impart a basic kindness. And because the middle school years can be very fraught.
I've heard that you are a big community builder, that you are like force all my friends to be friends with each other. That's my dream, right? That's what I want on my tombstone, like that all her friends became friends. Oh, that's so beautiful. It does kind of restrict your gossip access though, doesn't it? If all your friends are friends. Yeah.
Have you considered this as a potential downside? No, you just really have to – you have to be really careful about your group chat, who was on the group chat. Uh-huh, uh-huh. So the channels, like managing channels is really important. Also, just generally not being under the influence when you're gossiping is very important. Yeah.
Being able to have like mental wherewithal. Yeah, you actually have to have the cognition, right? Like I was having this conversation with Kat. I was having a different conversation with Liz. Liz knows about Kat's husband. You know, like you just got to keep all your channels straight.
Yeah, it's always funny to me when people are drinking on reality game shows in particular, because I'm like, you are making a huge strategic error. Because by drinking, you're going to be loose-lipped. And then you're in trouble. Like, a good gossip is loose-lipped intentionally and strategically and not, like, accidentally. Yes. Yeah.
Yes. I mean, we don't get paid much as journalists. True. So we trade in information like our currency ends up being information. And as a result, you really have to know how to hold it back. I heard that you brought a gossip for me. I sure did. It's kind of an apocryphal tale.
Great. I'm terrified. Is that gossip? If it's an apocryphal tale? I've heard it a few times. I think most stories are gossip, but that's one of my hot takes. So. Okay. It's a little story from the pre-digital age. Perfect. So I think it's about the mid-90s because when this was told to me in the aughts, the characters were already decades older than me.
Okay. There's a man and he's a known cad. He's a cad. He's a Lothario. Yes. His relationships with women don't observe traditional borders. Okay. He's married. He has two daughters. Okay. And he has one of those jobs where he's away from home.
Oh, how convenient. Isn't that interesting? It really helps when you're a cad. Uh-huh. Because it allows him to form a relationship with another woman. Mm-hmm. He takes on a mistress, and him and his mistress are going along fine for about a year or so. Okay. No one's the wiser. Mm-hmm. Then this guy gets a little ambitious. Uh-oh. In his endeavors, in his extracurricular affairs. That's what we like to hear. Yeah.
His nights are already busy, right? His nights are busy with the wife and family or with the mistress. Right. And so he picks up a woman at work. Oh, a daytime mistress. Exactly. Perfect. Because his nights aren't free.
I whenever I hear about men like this, I'm like, aren't you exhausted? Right? Like, this just seems like so much work to me to be like, okay, so I have my wife, and then I have my nighttime mistress. And then I have my daytime mistress. Maybe you just need a hobby. Right? Like, I guess clearly, he has a lot of stamina or extreme horniness or something, right? Because he can fit all of this in the daytime mistress.
And the man only meet up at lunch for nooners because that's the only opportunity. Because she's a daytime mistress. So anyway, he keeps this relationship going with the flings at lunch. He brings her to his place for these nooners. To the place that he lives in with his wife.
Or to a second place that he has because he travels for work. As we say in Texas, don't catch me lying. Yeah. Because I don't know this particular part of it. When I first heard this story, I didn't ask the right question. Clearly. I'm like, where is this place? Sometimes you get too excited. Geographically, like, which zip code is it in? Yeah. No, I don't know any of this stuff. Okay. I only know the particular relational dynamics. But not the office. No.
Yeah, it's not the office. It is a home. It is a home where he has...
A bed. Okay. And this is when the triple timing kind of begins to unravel. Uh-oh. And he starts to get in over his skis. Though I would say he was in over his skis when he tried to bring on the daytime situation. Yes, I would agree with that. But somehow it gets word to the nighttime mistress, the main mistress, mistress number one. Did the daytime mistress exist or the – The daytime mistress exists. Okay, got it. Interesting. And this mistress is furious. Yes.
And she's like, I don't believe it. I need to verify this somehow. But it is the early 1990s. Yeah. And there is no location tracking. Right. There are no cell phones. You can't really Google. But you know what kind of technology exists at this time? Landlines? Landlines. Not effective for this purpose. Fax machines. Fax machines. Fax machines.
That would take too long. Yeah. Okay. Not sure how many people would need to be involved in order to verify an affair via fax machine. But it is the time of audio baby monitors.
So this is pre-video baby monitors. These are baby monitors that are essentially walkie-talkie devices that are always on. Yeah. It's a transmitter and a receiver, right? Right, that's it. And so main mistress places a baby monitor under the dude's bed. Oh my God. And has the other part of the baby monitor, the receiver baby monitor, on her person. So one day...
At lunch, she parks outside his place. Oh, my God. At noon or o'clock. I mean, tis the season. Right.
and listens to her end of the baby monitor in the car or from the car. And that's how she catches him in the act. Damn. I was about to say that the like problem with a baby monitor, I assume now, but also especially then is that it has a limited range, right? Like you can't sit at your apartment. No. Incredible. So the information she had gotten is not only that he was having a daytime mistress affair, but also that it was at noon at his apartment. It
It was always during lunch. The daytime part of it is so crucial in catching him in the act. Wow. She goes on to bust him and she tells the wife, to this day, the wife and this main mistress remain good friends. Oh my God. And it led the man to say a phrase that I'll always remember and why I'll always remember this story. Please. He said, never run around on your run around. Oh.
Honestly, he's right. Don't run around on your runaround. Would you like to hear the gossip that I have for you? I cannot wait.
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Hosted by Maria Garcia, this is My Devo, an Apple original podcast produced by Futuro Studios. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts. Today's story is about two best bros. Okay. Our friend of a friend, we're going to call him Emmett. Emmett. Emmett has never had a best bro. His whole life growing up, he like wasn't on teams. Okay. Couldn't find his group.
Right? Like he was so excited to leave the town where he grew up and go to college. Got it. He goes to college in a big city in Texas. Okay. The lottery roommate he's assigned, this guy's name is Xander. Okay. We got Emmett. We got Xander. Exactly. They meet in college. Yes. Okay.
And Xander's like the first day he's like, like, do you want to walk and find food with me? And Emmett's like, yeah, I would love to. And they go on this walk and Xander is like immediately asking him like questions nobody has asked him. Right. Like he's like, what's your relationship with your parents like? Like, what was your high school experience like? They are like immediately intimate in a way that Emmett is like, I didn't know boys could have friends like this.
Yeah, I'm already sort of incredulous about this story because I don't imagine boys to be really interested in each other's emotional lives either. Yeah, exactly. And now suddenly he's been gifted by the universe, Xander. Oh, sweet. They're both computer science majors. Okay. They both don't like football. Okay. They're both left-handed. They both love video games. It's like everything's coming up in it.
I can't say that being left-handed at the same time as your roommate really benefits you in any way. But like, if you have those special scissors, left-handed scissors, you can share with your roommate. Yeah. And sharing is important. But Emmett feels like less secure in this friendship. Yeah.
than he wants to because Xander is like a really popular guy. Like he's very charismatic and he's like really good at making friends. So like Xander has all these friends and Emmett's like, my friend is Xander. Is this relatable to you at all? Like what would you do in this scenario? I would cling on to my one friend for dear life. Just wrap your, tie yourself to him. He would be my sole source of validation. Yeah.
Emmett is like, he's a, you know, 19 year old boy. So obviously he's not going to talk to Xander about it. But he's like, I think the solution to this problem for me is to get a bigger social group. Of course. I mean, the answer is find other friends. Yes. So now that you have a base friend, you can build from this base. Exactly. So he's like, and being friends with Xander has given him like a little more confidence, right? Because Xander just like rubs confidence off on people. That's great. Yeah.
Yeah. So and it's like, you know, he makes some friends. He starts dating a girl. Their freshman year goes pretty well. Oh, whoa. Yeah, you just took a leap. Not only does he have more than one friend, suddenly he has a girlfriend. Romantic interests. Wow. Okay. Crazy growth. Okay. Their freshman year goes great. Their sophomore year starts off good. They're still living together. They're still living together. They moved into an apartment.
Okay. Which is very cute. Spring semester is 2020. Oh. Pandemic hits. Yeah. Now they are in their off-campus apartment. Yeah.
just the two of them and there are all of these like little mild dramas right like imit's now girlfriend rita is trying to come over and xander's like but who does she see who's in her circle right all this stuff how big is her bubble exactly they're like can xander date right like during during this period because it seems dangerous but also he's lonely
Yeah, because everybody had different tolerance levels and different protocols too. Did you have any drama like this, like interpersonal? Yes, actually. The disillusion of my marriage began during Christmas. I'm not trying to get super dark, and it wasn't actually super dark. It's just that what happens is – I really just did not see that coming on anymore. No, no, no. You hotbox all your issues, right? Because you're stuck in the same place living Groundhog Day. So I'm guessing for Xander and Emmett –
It was accelerating or hotboxing at least some of their issues with one another. Exactly. It wouldn't have otherwise been apparent if it had been.
Had they been able to leave the house. Right. Exactly. They have these little issues, but they are like mostly having a good time hanging out. They're just bored because they're like, our classes are online. We can't do anything. So they're like, you know what? We're going to like move our computers into the living room. Okay. Put them on the table. We're going to start like fucking around with some ideas. Yeah.
Okay. We're going to see if we can come up with something that like the two of us could do that would occupy our time. Oh. But that also might be a future. This is like Larry and Sergey in the garage. Yes. Elise, can you explain crypto? No.
It is a currency. You can pay stuff with it. And it is all built on the blockchain. Okay. And that blockchain is a universal ledger that everybody can see. So the idea is that it's supposed to be far more transparent. And yeah, that's a very basic beginner levels understanding that I have of crypto. Thank you. I know more than before. One thing I think is important about crypto is that it is also decentralized, right? Like they're like anti-government, anti-bank, right?
Right. So it's like a little libertarian in this sense. And that's why the ledger is so important, right? Because there is no central bank. You just have the ledger to verify these transactions and verify the source of funds and all of that. I love that they're using the word ledger. Like something about that is very funny to me because I'm imagining a big book.
Web 3, baby. Literally Web 3. All these articles are popping up everywhere, right? And Xander and Emmett, they're computer science majors. They're reading all of these. And they're like, this seems like the future to us. Okay. And while they're thinking about this, they've also been playing a lot of video games. Okay. Do you know what microtransactions are?
No, I don't think so. A microtransaction is a purchase that you make within a video game. Okay, so this is the stuff I'm buying my kids in Roblox all the time. Yes. So I'm constantly having to use my Touch ID to buy more Roblox this or that. And so I am making microtransactions daily, it sounds like. You're a microtransaction queen, actually. They're just taking my money over there at Roblox. Yeah. Okay.
Our boys are like, what if you could use crypto to make these microtransactions? Oh, and this hasn't, nobody has come up with this before. Well, I mean, they're in college. So in their minds, no. They're like, this is a great idea. We've got it. They're like, basically, like, what if we were Stripe, but for crypto, right? What would be the middle software that people use? Yeah, I like this.
Oh, you do? Well, it seems like there's already products like this on the market, but that's fine. I mean, it sounds like, hey, a business is being born between two friends, like entrepreneurial spirit, America. Yeah. Yeah. They're like, here we go. We're working on a company. It's an idea. Is it an app? Like, what is it? And immediately things like are going well. But this also means that the apartment is like rapidly deteriorating because they are working all the time.
Okay, I'm smelling it. I'm smelling it. Yes. I want you to imagine like navy sheets. Oh, God. Like those Ikea climbing wall handholds. Yeah. But they're like just for decoration, right? Like you can't actually climb on them. Okay. The two of them are also just like doing voice to text at all times. So it's like loud in there and the computers make a lot of noise and it's hot. Yeah, they're in Texas.
Yes. In the summer. Yes. So it like smells crazy in there, right? Like it's like boy hours. Yeah. Ew. Do you think that Emmett's girlfriend Rita is going to want to come over to this? No, I'm guessing she's not into it if their relationship is still standing. Rita is like, I shan't be coming over there into the like hackathon cave. It's dark and smells weird. If you want to see me, you have to come to my apartment.
Yeah, of course. And it's like, that's fair. One day Xander gets a call from an investor. What? And the investor is like, we want to give you money. Wow. To do this thing that you're doing.
The thing about the investor is he's like, I want to give you this money. And it's like an unfathomable amount of money to these two guys. But it's actually not that much money, right? Like it's like in the hundreds of thousands, right? So it's still good money. But it's not like to them, they're like, we're set for life, right? So now is when Xander starts being like, we should drop out of college. Like, we have money. We should. Do you think they should drop out? No, but that's because I'm 40. But I...
But I guess if somebody were to offer me, so I'm trying to be my 20-year-old self and somebody's offering me hundreds of thousands of dollars to build my company, then heck yeah. I didn't really like college that much anyway is probably what I would say to myself. Emmett is like, it seems like smart to have a college degree. Like, I don't want to drop out. And Xander's like, isn't the goal of a computer science degree to drop out? Like, isn't this what all the greats have done?
Emmett is like, you know what? You're kind of right. And Xander is so persuasive. Like he's so charismatic. Yeah.
And so he's like, you know what? We will. We're going to drop out. And so they drop out of school. Where's our sound effect? They drop out in the spring of their junior year. The vaccine exists now. They get it. Very quickly, their roles are starting to become clear. Xander is doing a lot of coding. He's also meeting with investors. He is the face because he is the charismatic one. So
So he is the finder. They say in every business, there's a minder, a finder, and a grinder. You can play different roles. Explain minder, finder, grinder so that the people will know. Okay. There's somebody who minds the business, who's kind of hands-on. If it is a coding-related company, they are actually coding, right? Mm-hmm.
maybe sometimes, but really, I guess that's the role of the grinder, who's really kind of the foot soldier, doing the labor, making the product that the company sells. That's the grinder. The minder is more, I suppose, in the operations role, making sure the taxes get paid, the bills get paid, that they hire whoever they need to hire. So that's minding the business. And then finder, that's the salesman, right? Or saleswoman. It's the person who's out there, who's trying to
to make deals, collabs, new clients, all of that. So that's finding the business. So you can have a business, especially when it's two people, where somebody's the finder and the minder, and then somebody's the grinder and the minder, or you can shift roles. But it sounds like in this situation that Xander is the what? He's the finder. That's his primary role. Exactly. Exactly.
Xander has become the finder, which means that Emmett in your scenario is basically being both the minder and the grinder. Like he's doing marketing. He's making playlists. He's making like every digital asset they need. He's like making decks so that Xander can present them. He's troubleshooting the product. He's sending emails. Okay.
They name their company, we have named their company Micro. M-Y-C-R-O. Okay. It has to be a Z or a Y in there. Yeah. Oh, you're right. It should be Micro with a Z at the end. You're right. Micros. They name their company Micros with a Z. Okay.
Can you foresee any problems with this relationship dynamic? Of course. Founder relationships are notoriously difficult. Most of the time, they end up firing each other. In this case, if you are Emmett,
you're particularly set up to be aggrieved because you are basically doing all the work. I mean, you remember group projects in elementary and middle school. I sure do. Essentially, he's the girl in the group having to do all of the work. Okay. While the other one gets all the glory of being out there and glad handing, right? In the beginning, they feel none of this though. They're just exhilarated. They're like, all we do is work. This is great. We love it.
One day, they're like fancy investor man is like, can I come like visit you guys see what you're up to? And they're like, totally. And then he has to come over to their weird hack case. That smells of BO and rotting pizza crusts. And Coors Light. Yeah. And he's like, listen, I think you guys have a really good idea. But like, you need to become a real company. Like maybe change your sheets.
What do you how do you become a real company? Hire, perhaps. And maybe move out of here. Yeah. Maybe get a fucking office, right? Like stop working out of your weird IKEA handhold apartment. So they get this office that's like downtown. It has glass windows. They get merch. They redo their logo. They have room to grow. Right. Yeah.
There's also, left over from whatever company was there before them, a huge fish tank. Oh. In this office. And Xander's like, I don't like fish. I don't like the way they move. It freaks me out. They're suspicious. Yeah.
And Emmett's like, okay, but like, we can't just leave this fish tank empty. And Xander's like, I have an idea. I'll take care of it. And Emmett's like, great. He's doing some of the binding. Oh. Right? Huge. Yes. What will happen? What is the big decoration decision that we have in store? Thank you for asking. It is a bunch of hermit crabs. No! Whose shells have the company logo painted on them.
Stop it! Yeah. This guy is coming in with like 30 hermit crabs and like placing them into the tank. And Emmett is like, you know, just like banging his head against the desk. And he's also like, how is it that you're freaked out by the way that fish move, but you're fine with hermit crabs? Like, this is insane. Hermit crabs are so hard to keep alive too, because they have to stay in their shell. So you cannot mishandle them. Yes. If you pick up a hermit crab...
and accidentally turn it upside down, it's over. It's like Dunzo. You're murdering a hermit crab because as soon as they fall out of their shell, they are done. Yes. Oh, wow. But now our office has lots of hermit crabs. Those are their pets. Whoa. The office begins hiring. It's hiring hermit crabs.
Every girl that they know, just all of them. Because of this, the company's content marketing is great. And also they immediately have like a cult classic blog, but they still don't have enough coders. So it's like it's a classic scenario. Yes. I love this story. Yes. The problem is that Xander is really rapidly getting founder brain.
Do you know what I'm talking about here? Can you describe it? Yeah. It's like teetering on megalomania. Yes. It's this belief that because you've had a short track record of success, that your way of leadership is the right way. Yeah.
And you've only run your one company, though. And so there are no other examples. It is kind of a myopia. It's a lack of looking for outside perspective because you begin to become sort of narcissistic and certain of the way you're doing things. And also for someone like Xander, it manifests in like –
He starts wearing like a uniform that is like a t-shirt, a blazer, and a baseball hat. Okay. So he's kind of creates his own personal style. He's trying to make himself into an icon. Got it. Right. He like starts drinking Soylent. He grows out his hair a little bit. He starts saying stuff like, you know, maybe Elizabeth Holmes was misunderstood. So he's become
He's becoming a caricature of a tech bro. Yes. So Xander is becoming like, I would say worse, but some people might say just like more refined every day, right? Like he's listening to the great books on audiobook, but at like two times speed. Yeah.
The Blinkist version? Yeah, exactly. He's like listening to like, you know, The Prince by Machiavelli in the original Italian. And Emmett's like, but you don't speak Italian. And he's like, yeah, but I'm like, I'm getting it. What about the other tech bro classics like Siddhartha and The Alchemist? For sure. A hundred percent. And I also imagine that he's like listening to these things while he sleeps and being like, it's habit stacking. This poor guy, he sounds insufferable. Because of his megalomania, he also starts giving speeches at all of their meetings.
Oh, no. And he views them as like kind of the way a coach talks to a football team. But also the speeches make no sense. Clear eyes, full heart. Can't lose. But worse than that, because he's 21 years old. So the speeches make no sense.
In their defense, they've only hired a bunch of gals that they're friends with from college, right? Yes. Okay. So it's not like the employees know any better. No. They're all just vibing. Everyone's vibing. The hermit crabs are vibing. The hermit crabs are vibing. They're all. One important thing about this office is that something that they read in some article that was like how to start a company. On Forbes that somebody surely paid for. Exactly. That someone got paid 12 cents for was that you should have a feedback box.
So that anybody can write feedback on a piece of paper and put it into the box. Oh, this is old school, like comments and suggestions that you could drop in at your local Arby's franchise. Exactly. Okay. So there's like some feedback that is like, you know, I want there to be better blinds because the sun's in my eyes all day. But there's also starting to be a few little slips in the suggestion box.
that are about Xander's speeches. And they're like, we don't like these speeches. They're bad. Do you tell Xander if you're in it and you've seen these little slips of paper? Yeah, I gently find a way to tell him. I like practice. I might write out some notes. I might ask my therapist how to diplomatically talk to my co-founder about this. Do you think that these boys have therapists? No.
They don't even have laundry, clearly. Yeah. What Emmett has is a girlfriend. So he talks to Rita and is like, how do you think I could present this to Xander? And Rita's like, well, I would maybe be like really gentle with it. I wouldn't give him the actual slips of paper. I would just like tell him. Yeah. Right. Like here's what we're hearing. Yeah. Yeah.
So one day Emmett goes in there and he's like, Xander, I have to tell you about something. Xander's like, cool, close the door. I have something to ask you too. And Emmett's like, okay. So he sits down and he's like, I've been reading the suggestion box. They say they don't like the speeches that much. I think you should cut them shorter. And Xander, to his credit, takes this really well. He's like, cool, no problem. I'll cut the speeches shorter. That seems reasonable. I don't really know why I'm giving them anyway. Okay, this went well.
And then he's like, hey, are you free tomorrow? Like, could you take off tomorrow to help me with something? Xander asks Emmett. Yes. Okay. And Emmett's like, no, I can't just take off tomorrow. Like, one of us for sure has to be here. Okay. Like, there are things to do. Yeah, you can't just randomly take off. Sure. And Xander's like, oh, but I'm like getting a little bit of an outpatient procedure. Okay.
And it's like, what kind of outpatient procedure? They are still living together. This is like important context. So he's like, you don't have any problems. Yeah, like are you getting a mole removed maybe? Okay. What Xander is getting is body hacking, where you get like a little thing put in your finger and then you can like open stuff with it. Oh, yes. I live in LA. There's people who do this.
Yes. So he, Xander's like, this technology is so sick. I want to try it out. This is like getting the first iPod, right? Like he's like, I must have it. Wow. And Emmett is like, what are you going to do with it? And Xander's like, I can open like doors. Like I can open our apartment. I can open the office. Emmett's like, but we don't even own our apartment. Like why would you do that? Yeah, don't you have to wire the other end of it? Yes. And Xander's like, listen, man, I just really want to do it. Are you going to help me or not? I guess yes. Sure. I mean, I feel like...
I feel like this is kind of akin to somebody being very devout in a religion and essentially saying like, this is my thing. I believe in this. Yeah. And I might not believe in the same thing, but I'll support my friend. Yeah. Like I'll respect that. All right. This is how you want to practice your, you know, religion of yourself. Your God technology. Yeah. You want to honor your biosphere. Yeah, sure. Sure.
And Emmett's like, I totally respect this man. Like, I think it's super cool. He doesn't. But he's like, I think it's super cool. I'm super happy for you. He's like, but one of us needs to be at the office. Like someone has to open the office. So I cannot go with you. Okay. How are you feeling at this point?
Let's check in. All of this seems logical. I mean, I think this company is a hot mess, obviously, and they need some grownups to run it. Oh, interesting you say that because the investor comes by the next week and he's like,
I think that the two of you need like someone with authority. Yeah, this is the point in which the investors come in or the board comes in and they install a CEO. Exactly. And so the investor is like, I think you need an adult in here. Definitely at the C-suite level. He's like, my recommendation would be that you hire a CFO.
Yeah, somebody to oversee the finances. But wait, what happened with the biohacking? He got it. He went and got it. And then Emmett didn't take him. He found somebody else to take him. Okay, it's like getting a ride to LASIK, I guess, only you're now hacking yourself so that you can open doors with your finger. Exactly. Yeah. What do you think about hiring this person with authority?
How do you pick someone? It has to be somebody who's not going to come in and try and be the dad or the mom. Because these guys are going to be so sure of themselves and arrogant about their position and how much success that they have achieved on their own that they're not going to want – they're immediately going to butt heads with somebody who's like –
going to be contradicting them, right? So it has to be somebody who has an excellent bedside manner. That's all I'll say about how I think about the CFO role coming in. I think that's a really good idea. And I think these guys are not thinking that. What they're thinking is mainly we are concerned about someone coming in and taking over our company. That is their main concern. So they're like, we want someone that we think won't take over our company and ruin it. They will let us be in charge of it.
And so one day at breakfast, Xander is like, Emmett, what do you think about bringing my dad on as CFO?
Isn't it bad enough that they're roommates, that they're working with friends? You're not supposed to mix friends and money. It's even worse when you're mixing blood and money, like your family. Uh-huh. Okay. Uh-huh. What do I think about it? I think bad decision. Yellow light. Yellow light. Slow down. Okay. The pros of this is that Xander's dad is like Xander, like very charismatic, very persuasive guy that everyone likes. Yeah.
He believes in crypto and he does have experience like working in tech at a pretty high level. Okay. So he was a CFO or? No. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. He has worked for several failed tech companies.
And Emmett is like very sensitive to the fact that Xander still seems to be a little mad at him for not taking him to go to the biohacking. See, this all goes back to trying to put some chips in your finger. And so he's like, Xander's kind of mad at me for not taking him to this appointment. And I love Xander and he is my best bro. And we just need an adult Xander.
So like, sure. Sure. Anyone. Great. And that's how Xander's dad becomes the CFO of micros. Oh my God, Alex, remember the week that you moved to a completely different state. And then also at the same time, we had a company retreat that was in New York city. Yeah.
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You know, we do ads for Rocket Money pretty consistently every month. You would think by now I would have canceled every subscription that I don't use. But guess what? I haven't. Rocket Money reminded me recently that I was subscribed to something I didn't even know I was subscribed to. But it's because it was like an annual subscription. I unsubscribed. And by I, I mean Rocket Money unsubscribed for me. Alex, is this relatable to you?
It is so relatable to me. I would like never check my bank account unless I really, really have to because it gives me so much anxiety. And is there a reason that you check your bank account now? Yeah, I get these awesome emails from Rocket Money that are like, hey, FYI, this is how much you spent last week. And it feels like a gentle person holding my hand as I go to my bank account. Oh, yeah.
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Is that Xander's dad starts pitching a fit because he doesn't like that he's always on every email after the two of them. Like the order of the CC line he doesn't like. Ah, CC line politics. The second fit he pitches is because he doesn't like that people put their leftovers in the office fridge.
Where are they supposed to go? Do you want them out rotting on the table in the open air? Do you want them by the sink? Where does he want them instead? Exactly. The other problem is that this man is like not doing any of the three, right? Like theoretically, he could come in and be the minder and let, you know, Emmett only do the grinding. Right, right.
But instead he's come in and he just does nothing. So now. Who's overseeing the finances? Isn't this supposed to be dad's role? Theoretically. Yeah. So now they have to get every purchase approved by him. And he's in charge of all of this stuff. But it doesn't seem like he's working. Like all day he's just like wandering around and like, you know, making jokes and shit. Griping about leftovers in the fridge.
Yes. This goes on four months, right? Like for several months, Emmett keeps going over to Rita's house and being like, I hate this man so much. I'm losing my mind. He keeps like asking me all these like inane questions during the day and like disrupting what I need to do. Like this is such a problem. And he's also like, I'm having a bad time living with Xander because like I'm mad at his dad. So like none of this is working.
And eventually Rita is like, well, you know, we've been together for a little while. Like you, we could move in together. Oh, yes. Yes. Let's complicate things further. What do you think? You know what? Let's just go for it. Let's just go for it and see what happens. Why?
I'm just open. This story sounds like such a hot mess. You have mixed the personal with the business so much in so many ways that can become problematic and if not downright toxic that, you know what? Why not? Let's just go ahead and throw another wrench into it and see what happens. But...
But you know what this means, obviously. It's a breakup between the two founders and their long time living situation and the very situation that allowed them to give birth to this company in the first place. Yeah, that is the question here is how do you tell Xander? Yeah, and is he going to take it personally? Emmett is nervous about this for days. Like, finally, he's like, Rita and I's relationship is like getting really serious. And she has asked me to move in with her. And Xander's like, that's really great, man.
Congratulations. And Emmett's like, so that would mean that like, I'm going to move out of our apartment to live with Rita. Like, is that okay? Yeah. And Xander is like, he's like, yeah, you know, I've been like thinking about getting my own place anyway, like getting a little bit of a bigger space and like something that's a little cooler. Okay. And Emmett's like, okay, great. I love my best bro. Perfect. Then they just drink beers and they go home. Okay. So this went much better than I anticipated. This went very well. Incredibly. Yeah. Yeah.
So Emmett moves out. He lives with Rita now. Things get better for the two of them interpersonally because they start doing this thing where they like go and get a drink every week and talk about the company and talk about their problems. So like essentially they have a meeting for their relationship. Yeah. Yeah. They're checking it. I like this.
But the problem is still Xander's dad, who is like hanging around and nitpicking and like leaning in door frames and like making, you know, dad joke puns and like doing all these problems. And the suggestion box is filled with suggestions for Xander's dad. Oh, yeah.
Who's reviewing this? Emmett is reviewing it. Emmett is reviewing it. Okay. What do you do here? Well, then you're going to have to institute. Since they're doing these regular check-ins, what I would think is there's a great opportunity to also do a regular summary of what's in the suggestion box. Like, hey, since we're doing these regular check-ins, why don't we also do a regular temperature check? And every week I'll bring you just a top line summary of the two or three main themes that I'm seeing out of the success.
Suggestion box.
Yeah, that's basically right. Emmett starts being like, here's what I've seen. Here's what the overall themes are. He gives this to Xander and Xander one week and Xander is like, okay, so the problem is that like my dad is out on the floor too much, basically, like he's disrupting people. Oh, instead of it being the problem is my dad. The problem is something my dad is doing, like where he geographically is in the office is the problem. Okay, so he doesn't quite see it. And Emmett's like,
Sure. Yeah, I would say that's a problem with your dad for sure. And it falls under the general umbrella of dad. Yeah, problem. Okay. And Xander's like, okay, I'll talk to him about it. And it's like, great. And he does like he watches the next day, like Xander go into his dad's office and shut the door. And for like a few days, Xander's dad is better.
All right. So that sounds like a good short-term fix for what is a much larger albatross of a problem. They're making incremental changes, though. Let's applaud these young lads. Yes. They're making incremental changes and the product is getting better, which means that they are now working all the time, right? Like he's at the office early. He's there late, right? Like he's never at home. Okay. Which really...
Rita did not expect because Rita was like, we'll move in together and then I'll see you more. Right, right. We'll have quality time. She didn't realize that Xander and Emmett weren't just like sitting on their couch watching movies at night. They were like still at the office. So one day Rita has a really bad day and she texts Emmett and is like, Emmett, I had a really bad day. Could you like bring me home a treat? Oh, okay. And Emmett's like, of course I can bring you home a treat. Like super easy. No problem.
But by the time he leaves the office, everything's closed. Okay. It's late. Because it's so late. What do you do? Does his friend and co-founder Xander, who he spends all his time with, does Xander have any treats laying around? That's a good question. Could you raid Xander's house for something? Yeah. So he starts looking around the office, right? And he's like, is there anything in Xander's desk? Is there anything in Xander's office? Is there anything in Xander's dad's desk? Is there anything in Xander's dad's office? No. No.
And then he looks across the office and he's like, what about one of the hermit crabs? Oh, my God.
Could he bring her two hermit crabs as a treat? Whose shells are marked with the company's name on it? The company branded hermit crabs. Do you think this is a good treat? I thought what she wanted was a chocolate chip cookie, like a gigantic crumble cookie. Or like a gift certificate for a spa treatment. Yeah, I think you're doing a really good job and you would be a great boyfriend. Yeah.
Emmett's like, let me put these two hermit crabs into one of the little cages that Xander brought them in. No one can see this, but I am just shaking my head slowly. He brings them home. Just the most withering, slow head shake. Rita is like, this is not only not a treat, this is something that you got from your office that has the company logo on it. And it's so insulting. Like, this is not what I wanted. Yeah. Yeah.
And Emmett is like, I did really want to get you a treat. Everything was closed by the time I left the office. And Rita's like, but you could have left earlier. And Emmett's like, you're right. I did think you would like these, though, because you like animals and like you like things that are like cute and small. Yeah. But is a hermit crab a cute and small, sweet animal? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And Rita is like, I'm going to bed.
Okay. So it's just kind of cold in the house. Things are cold everywhere. Things are rapidly devolving. Oh, no. Xander stops. He starts, like, canceling their drinks sometimes. Hmm.
When they're supposed to get them. And he's like, oh, sorry, man. I just have like a lot of shit to do. I'm busy. Signs of a slow fade. Uh-huh. Xander's dad is becoming more preposterous every minute. Like he programs a slack bot so that whenever anyone says beer, it like auto generates a military quote about discipline. It's a nightmare in there. Uh-huh.
And Xander is getting, he's just like becoming more and more elusive. Like they're supposed to go to drinks. He doesn't show up. He keeps giving Emmett like shit for stupid little mistakes he's making. He keeps like freaking out over what the receptionist is ordering for lunch, right? Like all of a sudden he's like in the minding game. More and more suggestions are going into the box. But now there's no outlet to receive the suggestions because they are not even meeting regularly. Mm-hmm.
A few weeks later, Emmett gets home from work at like 10 p.m. and Rita is crying. Oh, no. And he's like, oh, no. He's like, what happened? Did something happen to the hermit crabs? One of the hermit crabs is dead. Oh.
I told you how fragile they were. And Imit is like, I thought you hated the hermit crabs. I thought they weren't a nice treat and that you didn't like them. And Rita's like, they grew on me. Like, they were so cute. They were always walking around. Like, sometimes they held their little claws together. Like, I loved them. And now one of them's dead. She's like, and I think the other one killed it. And Imit looks over there and one of the hermit crabs is holding the claw of the other hermit crab. No, it was a murder.
It was murdered.
So much more tragic and violent. Emmett is like, this is awful. Like, I brought this treat, then I didn't get credit for the treat, and it upset my girlfriend, and now one of our hermit crabs is like a murderer and has murdered the other hermit crab. Dude, why didn't she just get some cheap chocolate at the Texaco station? Rita is crying. She's like, and also, hermit crabs will die of loneliness. Like, they have to be in groups. So now the other one will die. Oh, no.
So you didn't know this about me because it's not in any bio, but I am a former hermit crab owner. And so when you brought up that they got a bunch of hermit crabs in the story, that's how I knew they were so fragile because it's very easy to kill a hermit crab. And actually one of my formative memories of childhood, we were also talking about kind of like how girls can be mean to each other in fourth or fifth grade, right? My fifth grade frenemy,
Killed my hermit crab. Ow!
dropping dropping body out of the show and so I know you really are identifying with Rita here yeah I really identify with Rita this is a tragic story especially when one killed the other gosh what do you think Emmett should do here first of all really focus on consoling and connecting with Rita mm-hmm even though he may not take the experience that she's having with the death or the murder the suspicious death
And the imminent death of the other. Right. And the imminent death, the likely imminent death of the other. As seriously, he needs to be there for her in this time. Like he needs to really validate her experience because this is real. I mean, look at me. Yeah. 30 years after my hermit crab was murdered. I did not know. And I'm not over it. And I'm sorry to break this up. Of course you wouldn't know about it. I've never talked about it in any...
I love this show so much. It is only because of this serendipitous invitation to be on normal gossip that I am now processing the depth of your poor hermit crab. Emmett is like, I don't really know how to handle this scenario, but what do you need from me? Okay, that's good. Like, what do you need from me in this scenario? And she's like, I think I just need you to like,
be with me. Okay. She's like, and I want to bury the hermit crab. Oh, that's sweet. And Emmett's like, okay, when do you want to do that? And she's like, I want to do it tomorrow. And Emmett's like, okay, so do you need me to take the day off work? And she's like, yes. And Emmett's like, okay. Oh, wow. Okay. He agrees to take his day off work, even though it's very difficult for him to take off work, given the high stakes of their startup. Yes. Do you like this plan?
Yeah, take the day off work. Yeah, bury the hermit crab. Give it a proper goodbye. So he writes an email that night that's like, you know, I'm going to be out for the day. He doesn't give a specific reason. He like makes it sound vaguely like a family emergency. Right. Okay. Okay. And he schedules it to send in the morning.
They have a great day. They like paint a picture of a hermit crab on a rock and they like go bury the hermit crab and then they put the little rock on top of it. Oh, this is sweet. They like go out to dinner. They have a great day. Rita's like, I'm feeling a lot better. Like, thank you so much. Oh, that's nice. The next day.
Emmett wakes up and he has a Slack notification from Xander's dad. Oh, God. And Slack says, and I quote, from this point forward, you need to be at work from 9am to 5pm every day or face disciplinary action. Stop it. From this clown show of a CFO.
Okay, nobody respects this guy. And he has nothing to do with the founding of the company. Yeah. And you're in it. You're like up to your eyeballs in fury and resentment. And you're like, I'm the only one that actually does anything. Like your dad does nothing. Xander just like flits around and looks pretty and has parties in his new loft. Like, what do you do? You go to the investor and be like, I can see this coming.
miles away that the dad, the new CFO that we've installed is problematic and I need to tell you about it now. So you essentially signpost that shit's going to hit the fan so that you have an ally before the shit hits the fan. Yeah. You forgot that Emmett is now like 22 years old. I know. I keep imagining him
To be a little bit more worldly. Yes. You want him to have experience. But the problem with these startups is a lot of times they don't. And so Emmett is like, I've fucking like, I've had enough of this shit. Like, I'm done. I hate this. So he's going to do something impetuous instead. Awesome. Emmett takes the living hermit crab back to the office because he's like, he's going to die of loneliness. I need to take him back to the office. He goes storming into the office. He goes straight into Xander's office.
Xander's like, why do you have a hermit crab in a little box? And Emmett's like, that is not important right now. And Xander's like, but you do have a hermit crab in a little box. Like, that's crazy. What are you doing with it? And Emmett is like, that's not why I'm here. He's like, Xander, why are you having your dad send me disciplinary Slack messages for taking one day off? Yes, let's focus on the heart of the matter. And Xander's like...
I don't know, man. Like, you should have been here. You didn't even tell me you weren't going to be here. And Emmett's like, I'm sorry I didn't tell you that I wasn't going to be here. But like, I needed to be with Rita. It was a hard day. Like, what are you talking about? I thought this was a partnership. Like, why wouldn't you come to me personally and be like, why are you taking a day off? And don't we have a degree of leniency with one another as co-founders? Come on. And Xander's like...
Maybe this isn't a partnership anymore. Oh, whoa. Plot twist. Emmett is like...
What do you mean? Maybe it's not a partnership anymore. And Xander's like, I mean, if you don't take this seriously and like if you keep like having all these problems, like maybe you just don't belong here. All these problems. He took one day off. Right. So this is not a pattern of behavior. No, it is. One day he had to go be with his girlfriend despite being the one guy who makes the product of this company. Mm hmm.
Okay. Xander's like, I think what needs to happen is I think you need to be put on like basically a discipline protocol to like improve your performance. He can't even do that. And Emmett is like, if this isn't a partnership, like if I'm being put on a discipline protocol, like I fucking quit. Yeah. And Xander's like, what? And Emmett's like, I quit, man. Like I'm not doing this anymore. Yeah. I would do the same thing. I am now firmly team Emmett.
Xander looks miserable, right? Like he's crying. He's like, man, don't quit. And Emmett's like, no, like I'm done with this. I don't want to deal with your dad anymore. I'm out of here. Yeah. He does quit. Like he actually quits. He does not go back. He watches from a distance over the next year as like things deteriorate, right? Like a few people get laid off and then a few more, right?
And he sees the company disintegrating. And then one day he logs onto Instagram and he sees that Xander has posted what is clearly like, you know when tech bros try to brand a failure as a pivot? Yes, yes. That. I've decided to move on. Uh-huh. And Emmett feels...
very vindicated. He's like, I knew that I was doing the minding and grinding. I knew that you and your fucking dad couldn't do it. It's schadenfreude. He's feeling schadenfreude. Yeah. Awesome. Good. Okay. We are almost at the end. How do you feel? What do you think? I feel like this is a story that has probably played out anonymously many times with these sort of characters, except Sans Hermit Crab. The Hermit Crabs really add a lot to
to my experience of this. But I remain, my allegiances are the same. I remain on team Emmett that the bringing in the dad was a poor decision. I think that we could see that come in. And...
you know what? We don't need yet another crypto company. Like the world is not missing yet another crypto company. So I'm okay with this, the failure of this particular firm too. All right. So generally I'm feeling good. Okay. I have some updates for you. Oh, oh dear. A few months ago,
So like, so the company folded. So just to like, bring us up to speed, the company folded, the company folded, the relationship between the friend also folded, right? The roommates, the relationship with the girlfriend is intact, still intact. Okay. Yeah. That he can still take from this time of his life. He's learned a lot. And I think I want to know that it's like painful, right? Because it's like, of course, this is the company you founded. And it's also like,
your first friendship breakup, which is never good. No, no. So a few months ago, Emmett goes to like an accelerator. Oh, okay. Cause he still wants to come up with something. Yeah. And he sees across the room, Xander, do you go say hi? I think you're obligated to say hi. I mean, you think so? Yeah. Just to be civil. But I keep, I keep being the adult and saying like adult strategic things because I've 20 years older than these people. Um,
Does he say hi? I think he has grown up a little bit, right? Like, this is a hard experience. It forces you to grow up. So he sees Xander across the room at this accelerator and he's like,
I need to say hi to this guy, right? Like he was my college roommate. We founded a company together. So he goes over and Xander like lights up to see him like huge smile. And it's like, I feel really, really happy to see my friend, right? Like after all of this time, Xander's like, it's so good to see you, man. Like we should play a video game sometime like old times. Like I can't believe we stopped doing that. Do you think that they should play video games together? Yeah.
And not do business? Sure. And not do business. Yeah, let's just play video games and keep it at video games. Let's have the right level of friendship. Few weeks later, they get on a call. They're playing their video games, right? They have their little like headsets on so they can talk to each other. Okay. And maybe it's because they're like not looking at each other. They're able to have like a real conversation. Oh. And Emmett is like,
why did you have your dad send that message? Oh, he decides to bring up that old issue. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And there's like a long pause on the other end. And Xander's like, I mean, man, there were a lot of mistakes with bringing my dad in. Oh, good. Okay. And it's like, yes, good. Thank you. And Xander's like, I think honestly, like,
I was just jealous that you took the day off to like be with Rita and you didn't take the day off when I needed you to. Oh, about the biohacking? It's about the biohacking. This company was already a house of cards.
It wasn't all the other messed up factors that brought it down, but it was that one founder didn't give the other founder a ride to go get a chip installed in his finger. Yes, correct. Of course. And it's like,
He's like stunned, but he's also like, I'm really sorry, man. Like, I didn't mean to diss you like that. Like, I should have taken you to get the biohacking done. Xander's like, thanks, man. That means a lot. And just think, this could be a multi-million dollar company that the investors are all like reaping the rewards to this day. And maybe the crypto ecosystem is better off because of it. But it's...
today it doesn't exist because one guy didn't give the other guy a ride to biohacking but he did give his girlfriend a day off to bury their hermit crab yeah and it's like it's so funny that what brought us down in the end was that like i didn't take you to get biohacked like that's what killed the company and xander's like oh that's not what killed the company
Oh. And Emmett's like, what? What killed the company? What did kill the company? His father was doing embezzlement. Stop it! Shocker!
Of course he was. But of course he was because what was he doing this whole time with all that money anyway? Uh-huh. Oh, okay. So they were running illegal fraud schemes. Xander's like, I'm so sorry, man. Like, I shouldn't have hired my dad. Like, I've had a weight on me that I needed to like confess this to you. Oh, my gosh. And it's like, I have something that I need to confess to you too. Like, it's smaller, but it is important. Yeah.
And Xander's like, okay, man, like, what is it? And Emmett's like, you know how early on there were all those suggestions about how you should stop giving speeches? Uh-huh. And Xander's like, yeah. And Emmett's like, I wrote them. I wrote all of them. Don't think it's on the same level as financial fraud. No.
But this is like a healing. And now our boys have been healed and they are able to be friends. The final updates I have for you are that sometimes Xander reaches out and is like, do you want to start this thing with me, man? And Emmett's like, no. No, no, bro. No, brah.
And he and Rita did break up. They are not still together. Oh, okay. But I've been told that it was very amicable and Rita now lives on like an animal farm. So she made it. Yeah, of course she did. And hopefully surrounded by many, many hermit crabs. How do you feel at the end of this story? What I love is that in the end, everybody came clean. Yeah. Now, the level of misdeeds were clearly not the same. There is no sort of
moral equivalence between embezzlement and then stuffing a suggestion box. But I do love that they were able to, A, reconcile in the end, and then B, everybody sort of speak their truth. Yeah. And I'm so glad that everybody's alive except for that one murder victim, Hermit Crab. Yeah, he was a sacrifice. Yeah.
Elise, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was a pleasure to have you. I had so much fun. What an awesome story. God bless friendships from college.
Abigail Siegel is our intern. Dan McQuaid runs our merch store, which you can find at normalgossip.store. Tara Jacoby designed our show art. Thank you to Jasper Wang, Catherine Hsu, Patrick Redford, Israel Daramola, Ray Rado, Chris Thompson, David Roth, Dave McKenna, and Luis Pais Pumar for your help on this season. And thanks to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber-based media company, and Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia.
Subscribe to Normal Gossip on Pocket Casts or wherever else you listen. I'm Kelsey McKinney, and please remember, you did not hear this from me.
