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Before we get going today, I wanted to tell you about another Radiotopia podcast you should be listening to, Song Exploder. Song Exploder is an award-winning show about the creative process behind music. Artists break down one of their songs, letting you hear all the different layers in the recording, from instruments to beats to vocals. And most importantly, they talk about why they made the creative choices they did. Song Exploder is not just for music nerds. It's for anybody who cares about creativity or wants to feel inspired to create something.
It's hosted by Rishi Keshe Hiraway, who you might know from the podcast Home Cooking or the West Wing Weekly. The episodes are short, about 20 minutes each, and my recommendation is to start with an episode featuring an artist you love. And then listen to one with an artist you don't know at all. There are over 250 episodes with guests like Fleetwood Mac, Madonna, Solange, Dope.
Billy Eilish, Phoebe Bridgers, FK Twigs, The Killers, Dua Lipa, and John Batiste, and more. Each episode is really a miniature portrait of an artist and how their creative mind works, with the song as the lens we see them through. It's also a great way to discover new music. It's a different kind of experience to get introduced to a song this way, learning how and why each piece and idea came together before you hear the whole song at the end.
Find your favorite episode of Song Exploder and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts or at songexploder.net. Hello and welcome to Normal Gossip. I'm Kelsey McKinney and in each episode of this podcast, we're going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world.
I am so excited to have with me today Sonali Rashatwar. Sonali is an award-winning clinical social worker, sex therapist, adjunct lecturer, and grassroots organizer. Based in Philly, they are a super fat queer bisexual non-binary therapist and co-owner of Radical Therapy Center, specialized in treating sexual trauma, diet trauma, racial or immigrant trauma, and South Asian family abuse while offering fat-positive sexual health care. Sonali is a member of the
Sonali, welcome. Thank you so much for having me. Long-time listener, first-time caller. I'm so happy to have you calling, have you here. It's so exciting for me. First off, we're both in Philadelphia. Do you think that there's anything specific about Philly gossip? I do. I think that it's meaner, and I like it that way. Say more. What do you mean meaner? I think that we on the East Coast, I think it's part of East Coast culture.
We are direct. We are more willing to share our honest, unfiltered opinion. And we're more willing to double down on it if someone disagrees. Yeah, I think that's true. And I don't think that that is always mean is my take. Like recently I had a house party and I was like, you know what a good house party needs is a hoagie platter, right? So I went to the little hoagie place by my house and I was like, hello, I'm having a party. Can I have a small hoagie platter?
And the guy at the hoagie place was like, what is nobody coming to your party? Oh, and I was like, Oh, he was like, he was like, well, how many people are coming? And I was like, I don't know, like 30. Like I got a keg and he was like, you want a large hoagie platter? You don't want a small and I was like, Oh, he checked you. He checked me. But you know what? He was right. I did want the large hoagie platter. Sonali, do you want to start me off with the classic first question? Tell me what your relationship with gossip is.
Oh, I've been thinking about this. I come from an Indian family and I come from a family of matriarchs. Okay. So gossip is really valuable in a family of women.
It's like currency and it is information gathering. It is for safety purposes. It's for storytelling purposes. Desis, we are known for telling tall tales. Don't call it lying. Oh, I don't call that lying either. It's called having texture and color in a story. Yeah. It's called understanding storytelling. Thank you. There's a little surrealism. Was that a lie? We don't know. Yeah.
but it was worth the laugh and it was worth being captivated for a couple of moments together. Sometimes it's like late night gossip sessions with my cousins and we're talking about which relatives are doing insane things in our Indian families. And when I say insane, I mean like
digging up bones in cemeteries and doing weird ceremonies with them. Why? I mean cousins who are marrying their ex-wife's sisters. No! Laughter
bad choices. Seeing people live boldly and proudly, making their wild choices and standing beside them. Yeah, I, you know, it is to my benefit that a lot of other people make bad choices. Like that, I love that for me because I'm like, thank you so much. I would love to discuss with my cousins what you're doing with the bones. Like,
We've talked about family gossip, but you do, you are a therapist and also you do activism. How does gossip function in both of those communities? Gossip is so important in activism because it lets us know, you know, which restaurants to be boycotting because they are not treating their Palestinian workers well. Correct. Gossip is really important in movement spaces because then we also learn about which restaurants
to be wary of supporting because they don't warn their members before they do an action that's arrestable. And then people who shouldn't be arrested get arrested. What about in therapy? Oh,
Oh, therapy is a harder one because I encountered this phenomenon of forbidden gossip. Explain. Forbidden gossip are all of the things and details that therapists learn about people's lives that they can't share. I'm saying all sorts of shit in therapy. So it's like I –
You and me both. Often I'm like, hello to my therapist. I'm like, I know that we have difficult things to deal with regarding my depression, but I learned a celebrity gossip that I can't tell anyone. So like, here you go, babe. Literally, that's exactly what I mean. It's those things that I can't tell anyone else.
But I can talk to other therapists about those secrets because we have a collegial agreement that they cannot leave the therapist circle of trust. I love that. I also, this is, I love forbidden gossip as a substitute for just HIPAA, right? Like, sure, HIPAA exists, but like, that's not a sexy thing to say. Forbidden gossip is so sexy. Yeah.
I'm glad to hear, though, that therapists are talking to each other because I do think it would be very hard, even if it's not gossip and it's just like hard things that you're hearing from people. I think it would be hard to just hold those things by yourself. It is. Yeah, it's really helpful, especially in this moment of...
No amount of therapy school could have ever prepared us for how to be a therapist during a climate apocalypse and multiple genocides in the world. Yeah. Yeah. So it's good to have an outlet there. So I'm just curious about the logistics of this. Like, do you go to therapy with other therapists and you talk about this? Or like, is there a group chat? Like how share gossip with other therapists? Yeah.
Well, we have to minimize like the kind of evidence that we would leave behind. I'm always saying that to minimize the evidence. And I know you for always saying that actually. It's one of the taglines on this show. In fact, yeah. Don't text your mess. Please think about the evidence. All of that is discoverable in the court of law. I heard though that you brought a gossip for me. Is that true? I did. I did.
This gossip comes from a friend of a friend from one of these gatherings with my therapist colleague. Forbidden gossip? It's a little morsel of forbidden gossip. Huge. This is huge for us. This is a friend of mine that I've known through these therapy circles. They're in my therapy community. And this therapist has been working with a client who is...
exploring non-monogamy with her boyfriend. That's a great thing to have a therapist for, in my opinion. We really need someone else to check us when we're being really out of pocket. Yeah. I mean, I don't know everyone's familial history, but I feel like most people are not from families that are non-monogamous. And so creating models for that, it's good to have someone who knows what they're talking about to help you. Yeah.
Okay, so this client is learning about non-monogamy. It's a brand new, brave new world out there. She's new to it. Her boyfriend is excited about it. They've been in a relationship for a number of years. They're really sweet to each other. They're opening up.
Um, boyfriend is, has met this, um, boy in art community spaces. Oh, I love that. Okay. Right. So cute. And my, my friend, my therapist friend is horrified to realize after several sessions of connecting dots that this new boyfriend, the art space boyfriend, art space boyfriend, um,
is her best friend's work enemy. No! No! She's been mentally responsible for derailing really important meetings. No! Wasting large portions of their gorgeous, limited, non-profit budget. Of course. Perfect. This is so bad because I was recently telling someone that, like, do I know what my friends do at their jobs? Yes.
Never.
not only realizing that like, you know, this person, which seems bad enough as a therapist, but like, you know, them through one of the most biased forms of knowing someone that exists is like a nightmare. You know, things about this person, the most ugly, twisted, broken pieces of themselves. What did your friend do?
My friend had to sit patiently with her client as she was reeling from really normal feelings of jealousy and insecurity about this art world. Totally. My friend. And the therapist was so...
My therapist friend was so struggling with not being able to just reassure this client and tell her, don't even worry. This is not going to last because he is a trash person. The thing about this art boyfriend is that he's a nightmare. So actually you don't need to be jealous of him because he sucks.
And you're doing all this beautiful internal work really for yourself. Yeah. Yeah. De-center this man. Right. Honestly, a good lesson in general. De-center this man. Whoa. Actually, someone should write that down. Learn the skill for yourself. Yeah. Not anyone else. Right.
I love that. Wow. Thank you for bringing me this story. I loved it so much. You're welcome. Do you want to hear the gossip that I have prepared for you? More than I need oxygen.
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Our friend of a friend today, we're going to call her Mina. Mina. Mina. She's in her, like, mid-20s. She's giving, like, rom-com hero at the beginning of the movie, right? Like, she's working all the time. She's always, like, on the phone doing business stuff, right? She's like Emily in Paris but good at work and she lives in London. Yeah.
She's hip. She's cool. She's fresh. Yeah. She's hustling and bustling. One day she's like, you know, imagine glass office building. She's like blazing through the glass office building and she gets a call from her mom. She's literally walking into a meeting. Do you answer the phone call? Absolutely not. There is nothing that my mother could tell me before this meeting that's going to make this meeting easier for me. And so you're rejecting the call. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Mina, better person than you and I because Mina always answers her mom. Oh, gosh. Bless her heart. I know. And that is because Mina has like a deep internal conflict between wanting a big independent life, the apartment, the solo behavior, the like bar dinners, reading a book and feeling a very strong obligation to be a good daughter. Yeah.
She sounds like an Indian girl. Yeah. Does this resonate with you? This like desire to be a good daughter? Yeah. As a 36-year-old they-them eldest daughter, the battle persists. I have yet to win. So she has decided that one way she can win at this game is by simply answering her phone all the time. No, we don't win this way, Nina. We don't win. We lose this way. Okay.
She and her mom live in the same city, and they see each other a fair amount. So most of the time when her mom calls in her history, it's just been like, can you pick this up? Can you do this thing? Whatever. Okay, mom lives in the UK too. Exactly. But recently, she's been answering very quickly because her mom's mom is sick.
Oh, no. And her mom's mom has had a really good long life. But like that means there are updates. And so she answers the phone. She's like, hello, mom. I'm on my way into a meeting. Like, what's up?
Sonali, is your mom able to give you bad news in a normal way? Of course not. Which format of bad news bearer is your mother? Oh, my God. She'll send me text messages, family chat, giving details as if she were the attending physician on call. Oh, wow.
She's like, we're pushing eight grams of whatever. 84 cc's and this test was inconclusive. You're Googling like MRI scans good, right? What does fetal alkali mean? Mina answers the phone. Without saying hello, her mom is like, we have to go back. It is time for my mother to die. Oh my God. What?
Mina's like, like in her head, she's like, why are you delivering this news? Like you're like a witch on an ABC television show, right? Like what? Why? And I just told you I'm heading into a meeting. Maybe you should save that for later. Yes. Mina is like, oh my God, mom. Like why? And her mom is like, I'm sorry, that was dramatic, but it is true.
Oh, my God. And Vita's like, I'm sorry. Like, I'm so sorry, Mom. But she's, like, not close with her mom's mom. She's, like, barely seen her life, right? Like, very few occasions have they interacted. But she, like, feels bad for her mom. So she's like, what do you need from me? Okay. Helpful. And her mom is like, I need you to go with me back to where my mom lives. Oh, God. Yeah.
Why you're panicking? I can see in your face that you're like, there's a panic rising. It's morphing into the form of emotional support eldest daughter. Yeah, it's like being a seeing eye dog. I agree.
Like, that's not a trip you're going to enjoy. No. But Nina is like, she's kind of like known this is coming, right? She's already told her work, like, I'm gonna have to take bereavement leave at some point pretty soon. Like, expect this. And they're like, okay. So she on the phone is like, okay, I'll go with you. Like, when do we need to leave? Yeah.
And her mom is like, we're going to leave tonight. I'll get your ticket. Just like meet me at the airport. No. Why no? Oh my God. I'm just wondering what's happening in this meeting. Are there deadlines that she's going to have to push? Mina's like, I do not have time to like prepare for this trip. And her mom's like, no problem. You finish your day. I'll meet you at the airport tonight.
And Mina's like, okay, fine. So she like goes to her meeting. She does her little presentation. Everything goes well. She does all her emails. She takes like a cab directly from work to the airport. That means her mom packed her bag for her. Ding, ding, ding. Oh, no. She assumed...
Her mom would use the hide a key, buy her apartment and go to her apartment and get some stuff. Instead, she arrives at the airport and her mom has packed a bag full of just like things of Mina's that were at her mom's house. Oh no. As a fat person. No, no, no, no, no, no. The clothes that are still sitting in my closet at my parents' home do not fit me anymore. And also I'm a they them now. I don't wear shoes or clothes anymore. Oh,
Oh, no. Would you trust your mother to pack a bag for you? Never in one million years. And Mina's like, cool. So I'm here at the airport with my passport because we're about to fly across an ocean to the East Asian country where our family is from. And the only thing I have is like this bag of weird stuff from my mom's house. Oh, God. Oh, my God.
So this whole trip, I want you to imagine Mina wearing like slacks from an internship she had five years ago that are like two sizes too small. I am shriveling like a Tootsie Roll inside because your family back home is so judgmental. Yes. Already. You're already inadequate in their eyes because you live in the diaspora. Oh my God. What?
Mina's, like, rifling through this bag as she waits for the plane to board. And it's, like, you know, her mom has packed, like, a sensible scarf. Oh, God. And, like, one of those bras that's, like, very embroidered so you, like, can't wear it under anything, really. Oh, no. And, like, underwear that shows, right? Like, there's just gonna, like, it's so bad. And there's also no pajamas, right? So it's just, like...
Mina's like, all of these clothes are like from a me that doesn't exist anymore. So this is like already things are going poorly. She gets on the plane. They fly half a day and like one plane transfer. They arrive in the afternoon. In this culture, people want to die at home. So her grandmother has been transferred from the hospital into her own bed.
Which seems great, honestly. I would love to be in my own bed if I'm feeling bad. Same. I would love to die at home. Yeah. She's in her bed. She's, like, fading. But when they arrive, she's, like, happy to see them. Right? And able to, like, still chat a little bit. Okay, nice. And her grandmother is immediately like, I love you even though you don't have a husband. Just right off the bat? Oh, God. And Mina's like,
thank you, grandma. She's like, this woman is dying. And then the grandma is like, I used to be wild in my youth too. I don't believe it for a minute. The grandma's telling her tales about like being in Germany in her youth and like being very rebellious and smoking lots of cigarettes and kissing so many boys. And the grandma is like, everyone loved me. Oh,
And Mina's like, I bet they did. Whoa. When her mom's mom falls asleep, Mina's looking around and she notices that like all of the jewelry that her mom's mom has has been like pulled out of its secret hiding spaces from around the house and set on the vanity. Okay. So that when she dies, it can be handed out according to her will. Oh, she's preparing. She's preparing. This woman is organized. Wow.
Mina's looking and she immediately notices these like two long golden hairpins. They're engraved. They have like little charms that hang off the end. And Mina like doesn't speak the language of her family well. And it's something she feels weird about because she's like not hugely involved in the culture. But she's like, I can place these hairpins. Like she's like, these are beautiful. I love these. Whoa.
And her mom is like, they really are beautiful. Like, I love these too. Oh my God, Mina, go ask for them. Mina, please ask for the thing you want. It's the only thing you may get out of this whole trip. Besides judgment, which there's lots of. And an inferiority complex. The whole day and the next are like this. There's like people coming in and out of the house. Everyone in the neighborhood is coming to say goodbye. It's like all the extended family.
All the food is incredible. Oh, this is so beautiful. All of the food is rice. Rice cake, rice noodle, rice wine, rice bowl, regular rice, rice dessert drink, rice everything. And Mina is wearing pants that are five years old and so small. Oh, no.
Since she is so bloated. Oh, Mina, I'm so sorry. It's so hard. And she's like, I understand that I'm so bloated and so full, but also I want all these rice things and I have to eat them because they're delicious. Obviously. Is this relatable to you? This is so relatable to me. I can't stand being uncomfortable in my clothes. I would have to go and get some kind of like dress that is a sack. A tent. Tent dress. Yes. Yes.
Yes. I live in it now. This is my home. This tent made of one giant piece of linen. No borders, no seams. This is like when I found out that they make pants that look like dress pants, but they have stretchy in the back. Oh, I love it. Like it's elastic. And I was like, oh, things are about to change for me. What?
Oh, we're going places. So what happens to your gut when you travel? Oh, I am very privileged and able bodied in this way that I do not experience gut problems. What? I know. I know. It's, it's really embarrassing. That is embarrassing to be to have a gut that functions. What Mina's gut has done is left her ability to poop in London.
Oh, and now we're several days in and there's several days of rice. And oh, no, the noises that must be happening in her body. And her clothes are too small. So it is like so uncomfortable and so bloated. But otherwise, things are really beautiful and lovely. Wow. Just such a yin yang moment. I know. The next day, it is like clear that this is going to be the last day.
And in this culture, the time of death is like really important. And so a handkerchief, a cloth handkerchief is placed under her mom's mom's nose so that they can see the breath and know like exactly when she dies. Whoa. She dies at exactly 1111. Wow.
Make a wish. Make a wish. And her mom's sister, June, is obsessed with this. Why? She's like the woo-woo one. Oh, we love the woo-woo aunt. We love the woo-woo aunt. And so June is like, 11-11. It's fortuitous. Things are going to be great.
Angel numbers. What do you think about this? The woo-woo aunt, the time of death? You know, I really aim to be the woo-woo aunt. I aim to be the one who reminds us to see the beauty in all things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
The time of death is also important because this is like a traditional three-day burial system that begins the minute of death where she like lays in the house until the third day and then she goes to be cremated. The grandmother wanted this process. Everyone is sad that she's dead, but everyone is like, she had this great long life. She was so old. She's getting to die the way she wanted to die. Like,
We feel fulfilled and safe in this process. This is beautiful, but I cannot help but think about the smells that will be permeating through this home over three days. I think that there's a system for those, but I don't know what it is. Okay. I'm imagining that there's a system. Yeah.
Usually the eldest or only son is like the chief mourner. Boo. And they're in charge of like burial planning, all of this stuff. Oh, okay. Well, yeah, then do that.
But in this family, it is only Mina's mom, Vera, and her aunt, June. Oh. And they are both single. So Mina's mom, as eldest daughter, is in charge. I kind of love this. Matriarchy for the win. Her aunt, June, was married once, but she and her husband got a divorce because it turned out he was gay and then cheated on her with her boss. Yeah.
That's a great reason to get divorced. And this, of course, because they live in like a community was a huge scandal. Oh, that's the hard part. Yeah. But hysterically, this man still lives in the same neighborhood. And so everyone sees him all the time.
And Aunt June is like, no one is allowed to talk to him. No one is allowed to, like, interact with him. And she gets so mad whenever people, like, interact with him. I'm so sorry, but I'm that gay person as well. Like...
My exes are, they're not your friends anymore. Leave them behind. I'm your friend. Dead to me, dead to you. Thank you. It's the least I can ask for. Yes. I love that you're like identified with June so quickly. You're like, I agree. Woo woo good. Angel numbers good. My ex, he's dead.
Mina goes downstairs in her like morning clothes, which are also too small. And her aunt June is there with her daughter, her cousin Angie. Mina and Angie have this kind of like a relationship that I think is kind of common amongst cousins that are close where they are like very intimate, but also like give each other shit all the time. Oh yeah. That's definitely me and my cousins. Is it? Yeah. We're currently in each other's shit right now. I don't want to talk about it.
Are you the one who's being given shit? Is that why you don't want to talk about it? Maybe a little bit. I'm sorry that's happening to you. Mina comes in to the kitchen. Her aunt and her cousin are sitting there. Her aunt is spoon feeding Angie soup. No, that's this. Something's wrong. Angie is 23 years old. No. Mina is like, hello, Angie. And Angie's like, hello, Mina.
And then her aunt leaves. And Mina's like, I see that your mom is still spoon feeding you. Okay. We're already getting into bullying. And Angie's like, Oh, I see that you're still wearing slacks from 2008. Oh, she got you good. She got you Mina. And Mina's like, how's med school by the way? Oh,
Oh, Mina. And Angie's like, really good. Thanks. How's girl bossing? Oh my God. Who's going to win? It's a nail fighter. And Mina's like, it's great. Thanks. But their bonding is cut off by the will reading. Oh, oh,
It is time. Oh my God. It's time. Oh, you've sat up at attention. You're prepared. I want her to get those hair clips. Everyone gets something. This is like a pretty equitable will, right? Like people are getting things based on their position in the family, but also they're just like, everyone's getting something. But Aunt June gets the hairpins.
And so Mina is like, oh, man, like, I really loved those and I wanted them. But like, I didn't ask for them. So I like can't really be that unhappy. Okay. She's fair. But that night, June comes downstairs and it's like, has anybody seen the golden hairpins that I inherited? Mina's like, oh, the ones like with the charms on the end of them?
And June's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. The ones with the charms, they're like engraved. They're long. They're gold. And Mina's like, oh, yeah, I saw those yesterday on the dresser. Right? Like I saw them. They were there on the dresser with a bunch of other stuff. Aunt June is like, great. She goes up there. They are not there. Somebody stole them. She's like, they're missing. Somebody took them.
She's like, they're also gold. So they're worth a lot of money. And also they're beautiful. Well, yeah, they're beautiful.
She's like, whoever stole them. She's looking directly at Mina. She's like, whoever stole them needs to give them back. Don't accuse my client. Mina is innocent. Mina is innocent. Like, she's like, I have no idea where these hairpins are. She's like, why are you looking at me? And June's like, you're the one who knew where they were. So like, where are they now? Oh, no, don't accuse her. You have no evidence to accuse her. Mina's like, I don't know where they are.
But Aunt June does not believe her. The next day, there are still no hairpins. Okay, okay. June is turning the house upside down while, like, Mina's mom is planning everything for the funeral. Mina is, like, helping look, but, like, to no avail. Like, no hairpins. They're looking all day. And then at, like, twilight, her Aunt June – you know when, like, someone in your family notices something wrong in your appearance and they kind of, like, stop? Oh, yeah.
And you're like, oh my god, what is it? Yeah, yes. June is walking around looking for these hairpins and she passes Mina in the hall and she kind of stops and is balking a little at her appearance. Oh no. And Mina's like, what? She's like, I know my clothes look weird, but what is it? And June is like,
There's a spirit in you. You're haunted. Oh my God. That's the worst possible thing someone could have said to me. Cause I believe that shit. I am at a, I'm out of 10 level scared. Okay. You're terrified. Because I obviously believe her. She's already woo woo. Yeah. And June like is going away. Right. She's still like looking for hairpins. So Mina does not have time to ask her questions. She goes directly to her cousin and,
And she's like, your mom is joking, right? Like, I'm not haunted, right? And Angie is like, I don't know, dude. She doesn't really joke about things like that. Dang. Angie is really trying to get to her. And Mina's like, but it's not, like, real, right? Like, I'm not haunted. Like, that's not real. And Angie's like, I don't know, man. Like, it might be real. Oh, God.
What do you do? I mean, because I believe in that stuff, I light incense and I try to keep my shit clear. I don't want to bring anything around with me, no. She also has a problem where she's like, I'm not really familiar with the culture, right? So she's like... True. Her first question is like, could haunting be good? And you're right, because...
Muslims believe that jinns, they're all kinds. They're like mischievous ones. And like, right. They're not all evil demonic. Right. So she's like, could the ghosts in this culture be good, actually? And maybe I'm blessed. Who knows? So she goes to her aunt June and she's like, aunt June, quick question. Is being haunted bad? Or is the ghost like friendly? Casper. And June is like, it is very bad.
Okay, now I don't know if I believe June. She's like, I don't think that it's good, and I think that you should not be haunted. Okay, so I'm worried that June is going to be selling her a remedy. And Mina's like, what do I do? And June's like, I'm very busy right now. Like, I'm trying to find these hairpins, but like, I can help you before you leave. And Mina's like, okay, fine.
But at night, it's like worse, right? Like any creek she's jumping at. Of course. Poor thing is scared. She's scared. She like won't take the dog out at night because she's like, I don't want to go out there. Breezes are like giving her goosebumps. She's walking up the stairs to go to bed that night and she hears like a whispering voice. Me? Level 10 scared. She like tries to focus.
And it's like saying something, but because she's like never learned the language and only has like a few words. She's like rice, bathroom, like what? She like can't, she cannot decipher. And she's like, now I'm scared and I'm demoralized. Like the ghost is like making fun of me. I'm being haunted by a bully, right? This is the worst case scenario. Mm-hmm.
She gets into her bed and you know how your bed is safe. You're like, if I'm in my bed, I'm safe, actually. Obviously, under the covers is the safest. Yeah. So she gets in the bed and she's like, thank God I'm here under the covers. I'm safe.
And then her body is like, oh, no. Hungry or bloating? Maybe she could poop. Oh, oh. She's not sure. But she is scared because she's like, okay, I've been bloated for days. It would be a huge relief to be able to poop. But also, I'm pretty sure the ghost said bathroom. Oh, ghost did say bathroom and rice. And rice. What do you do?
Well, I'm going to be lighting every light, turning on every light that I can from here to the bathroom. And also playing a little music. Oh, what is the, what's the music going to do? You know, it, it hopefully will muffle any future ghostly whispers. Okay. I love that plan. You know,
Mina like turns on all the lights in her room. Correct. Safest. She's like, but I have to go down the hallway to get to the bathroom. And like, there are people sleeping. Like I can't turn all the lights on in the hallway. That's rude. True. Very considerate of her. She's like going very quickly to the bathroom when she feels like something on the back of her neck. I am terrified. What? Is it a spider? Is it a, is it a ghost? Is it the haunted spirit? Is it her own hair? Yeah.
I like that when I said this, you leaned back. What if it's in front of me? It's so scary.
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Mina gets into the bathroom. She turns on all the lights. Smart. She locks the door behind her. Who knows if that will help, but safety first. She's in there for many minutes. She does not poop. She's like, all of this has been awful. Oh.
I feel so bad. All of this for nothing. Now she must face the scary hallway again. Oh, no. She opens the door. It's so dark. She's like, I'm just going to go really fast. Okay. She's so brave. She's so brave. She's darting to her room when she sees the door to Angie's room shutting, like, very slowly. And she's like, Angie! Little witch. Yeah.
So she goes in there and she's like, Angie! And Angie is like giggling in her bed. Like she's having a real laugh. Mina gets in there and she's like, God damn it. She's like, Angie, stop pranking me. She's like, I was really scared. And Angie's like, hee hee hee hee hee. Gotcha. And Mina's like, that was really good. Like the whispering. And Angie's like, I liked the whispering. Like I thought it was a nice touch. I love a good prank.
And Mina's like, how did you do the like fingers on my neck? And Angie's like, the what? And Mina's like, I felt like a brush on my neck when I went to the bathroom. How did you do that? And Angie's like, I didn't do that. Angie, don't say this to me. Don't say this to me right now. Mina's like, please don't make me go back to my room. I don't want to go back in the hallway. And Angie's like, you don't have to go back to your room. Stay in my bed with me. It's too scary out there. They sleep in their little bed, bunked up. Oh, they're cute.
Today is the third day after the death. So it is like time for the cremation, time for all of these events. Okay. Mina wakes up. She's exhausted. She got no sleep. Angie is also exhausted. She got no sleep. June comes in to wake up her daughter and she's like, Mina, what are you doing in here? And Mina's like, oh, I just slept here last night. And June's like, you are going to rub your haunting off on my baby. Like, get out of the bed. Okay.
And Mina's like, I did not know I could do that. That was not my intention. Rub a little harder, Mina. Yeah, at the same time, she's like rubbing her shoulder against Angie. Like, I would never do that. The whole day is chaos. And it's like, it's chaos the way all family gatherings are chaos, right? Like, it's mournful because like the body is moving. And it's believed that on the third day when it crosses the house threshold, it like enters the afterlife. Yeah.
So it's like mourning, but it's also celebratory. There's a spreading of ashes. There's like all of these family events. And there is like a kind of direness to any funeral, right? That feels like really bleak. But also when you're with your family, everyone is behaving insanely. So it's also very funny. Yeah.
So like they're on their way to the scattering and they pass June's ex on the street and he waves and like a few people in the funeral party wave back and she's like freaking out about it. Right? I have an aunt like this. You just never know what she's going to say, especially at a funeral. You never know. What?
Mina's mom is like, our mother is dead. Like, please focus. And June is like, I can't focus when there are members of this family that do not support me. They are crossing me. They are crossing me and my desires. And everyone in this family is like, oh my God. Absolutely.
After the scattering of ashes, they do this like kind of deranged thing in this family where all the things that aren't in the will can be like chosen one by one. So it's kind of a like unhinged white elephant. Oh, yeah. But all the things not in the will are like the weird things, right? It's like her skis, her like corn on the cob holders, right? Like her pillow, right? It's like not things that you want. Yeah.
I'm that kind of weirdo. That's the kind of stuff that I want. Same. I'm like, I do actually want that weird pillow that has like an embroidered saying on it. Give it to me. I want the little towel rack that's like 90s Americana and says home sweet home on it. I want this. Oh, my grandparents have a wooden coat rack. I will take it. Thank you. Dibs. So this is what's going on. And the whole time Aunt June is like, well, I should get to go more than once because I don't have my hairpins.
I do feel like that's fair. Everyone's like, you're being so annoying. You're being insanely annoying. Like all day. You've been like, don't wave at my ex. Don't talk to my ex. Like talk to me about why you talk to my ex. And now you're like, I get to go again. So they're all like, fine, just go again. Like no one cares. Let her go. So she's going doing all of her things. Mina cannot worry about this because the whole day Mina is cold. Yeah.
And she keeps turning to other people and being like, are you cold? And everyone's like, no, we're not cold. She asks Angie. She's like, Angie, are you cold? I feel really cold. And Angie's like, is it because you're wearing an express skirt suit from 2008? Oh my God. The way Angie is reading her for filth. It's in that way that a cousin can really only truly cut you down. Yeah.
It's a talent and also a terror. Mina's like, no, I don't think it's because I'm wearing an express skirt suit from 2008. I think it's because I'm haunted. Not 2008. The next day, they're supposed to leave, like get back on the plane and go back to London. Okay. What do you do? You're maybe haunted. You're about to leave. Your mother has no idea what's going on about any of this. And also her mom just died. Yeah.
I am contacting whatever spiritual shaman I can in that time to get a little mini ceremony done. Get that shit out. Do you tell your mom? Yeah, definitely. What, how do you tell her? What do you tell her? Mom,
Your sister, your kooky ass sister told me that I'm haunted and I need your help to take care of it. Yeah. Mina is like, mom, in the morning. She's like, mom, I'm
I have some things to talk to you about. And her mom's like, okay, what's up? And she's like, first off, I'm very, very constipated. Do you have anything for that? And her mom's like, yes, I have many things for that. I will help you. She's like, great. Okay, thank you for helping me solve that problem. Problem number two is that I may be haunted. And her mom's like, what? What?
And Mina's like, yeah, I was like really cold all day yesterday. And also I felt some fingers on me in the hallway. And her mom's like, what are you talking about? But her mom is like also, you know, open to the idea of her being haunted. But she's like, where did you get this idea? Right? Like, where is this coming from? And she's like, well, you know, Aunt June stopped me in the hall and said that I was maybe haunted. Yeah.
And her mom is like, because all week her mom has been planning this whole funeral while June looks for her hairpins. And now June has told her daughter that she's haunted.
When you put it like that, it's kind of mean. So her mom is like, June is being very annoying, but June is also the mystical one. So like, it's possible you are haunted. So she's like, let's go talk to my sister. Okay. They go into the kitchen. June is spoon feeding her daughter again. This is so weird. And Mina is like making baby face at her, right? Like, baby. Right.
And her mom is like, June, did you tell my daughter that she was cursed? And June is like, I did not say she was cursed. I said she was haunted. That's true. She did say haunted. And her mom's like, oh, my God. Okay. Did you tell my daughter that she's haunted? And June's like, yes, because she is. And her mom's like, okay, June, are you pitching a little fit for attention or is my daughter actually haunted? Good question. And June's like, I believe that she's haunted. Okay.
Mina's mom is like, okay, we're leaving today. You are traumatizing my daughter. What are we supposed to do here? And June is like, I mean, I told her I would help her if she asked. Do you ask your Aunt June for help? No.
This is a tough one. Mina has to be open to it because how, who else is going to help her find a shaman to get rid of it? Yeah, exactly. Mina is like, on the one hand, maybe my aunt would be less mad at me if I allowed her to help me. And also then maybe I would not be haunted forever. Yeah.
Right? Like, there's a big plus side to that. I feel like, right? Yeah, that seems good. She's like, the downsides are, you know, maybe my aunt is making it up because she's mad about the hairpins. And maybe I'm not haunted at all. Very small possibility of that, I think. The haunting is definitely real, I'm feeling. Mina is like, Aunt June, please, will you help me?
And her Aunt June is like, yes, come with me. And then she has all of these things. She has incense. She has little tools. She has all of this stuff. She's like walking around Mina. She's doing all of her little witchy aunt behaviors. Wow. Decked out. Mina's like, I've been in here for maybe two weeks, right? Like I've been in here for thousands of years inside this little aura of Aunt June trying to fix me. And then suddenly Aunt June kneels in front of her and is like, the spirit is leaving. That's all it took. Now I'm suspicious.
Mina is also suspicious, but she's also like, oh my god, thank god. She's like, thank you so much. I'm so grateful. I do not wish to be haunted anymore. And her aunt is like,
Okay, great. The spirit is removed from you. But like, there are some things you need to do to keep the spirit away. Interesting. Okay. And Mina's like, okay, I will do whatever it is. Tell me. And June's like, first thing, do not walk under any clotheslines. Interesting. I wonder how often that must happen in the UK. Mina's like, I literally live in a big city. That is not going to be an issue. We have dryers. Okay.
Thing number two, Aunt June is like, always check your reflection in the mirror to make sure that your reflection is blinking at the same speed as you. That's creepy. It's also hard to check, right? Because like when you're blinking, your eyes are closed. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's really...
So for years, I want you to imagine that Mina is like taking videos on her iPhone of her blinking in the mirror and then checking them to make sure that the blinks are the same. So a new phobia really has been planted, a new anxiety. And the new anxiety is so specific and also makes you look weird because like if you're at a bar and have three drinks and then you're very close to the mirror blinking, people are going to be like, what's wrong with her? We need to get her some help. Mm-hmm.
The other thing, the last thing June tells her to do to keep the spirit away is to apply a serum to the bottom of her feet every night. Wow. This is a difficult regimen. And Mina's like, great, I'll do it. I hate being haunted. Where do I get the serum? And June's like, I have some. It's $60. Oh my God. There it is.
I'm angry because this was all a ploy to sell some Mary Kay. It's an MLM for serums. This is an herbal life based on haunting. Or it's not. That's the problem, right? Is it's like the minute someone is like, I need money from you to help you with this. An alarm should go off in your head, right? Of like...
And the alarm goes off very quickly in Mina's mother's head, who is June's sister. And she is like, do not give my sister money. Do not put serums on your feet. Stop it. And Mina is like, but on the off chance that I was haunted and maybe still am haunted, should I just get it? Like, it's $60. What do you think? It's hard because...
Do I feed the beast and buy the first bottle? And will it be a slippery slope to a second and third bottle? Mina is like, how long will the serum last me? And her aunt's like, oh, it should last you at least a year. And Mina's like, oh, okay. Well, if it's going to last me a year and it's only $60, like on the off chance I am haunted, yes, I will take it. Thank you. And her mom is like, oh my God. It's really an investment in her
spiritual safety. Yeah. And you know what? Sometimes we do rituals that are maybe not real because they make us feel good. Mina takes her serum. She packs it in her bag. They fly back home. She makes it home. Things are going well. She keeps checking her blinking in the mirror and the blinking is the same. So she's like, everything's fine. Also, she poops finally. She's like, this is great. Amazing. We love this for her. A couple months later, she goes over to her mom's house for dinner.
And she's like, oh, I'm so happy to be here. She's eating her mom's food. It's really great. She's like, oh, do you have this thing that I need? And her mom's like, oh, yeah, it's in my room. So she goes into her mom's room and there on the dresser are the gold hairpins. Oh, I'm aghast. What do you do? I wonder if Vera...
Very altruistically stole them for Mina. Because Mina did this big favor for her, which was very kind of her. But I'm definitely taking the hairpins downstairs and confronting my mom. You are? Absolutely. How are you going to confront her? You're grabbing these little hairpins in your hand. I'm dangling them in her face being like, what the fuck are these? Yeah.
When did you take them? Mina does this. She grabs the hairpins. She goes downstairs. She's like, Mom, what are these? And her mom's like, oh, those are your grandmother's gold hairpins. And Mina's like, yes, I've got that. But weren't these Aunt June's in the will? And her mom's like, well, she clearly didn't value them that much because it was so easy to steal them. What? What?
The mental gymnastics that sisters do to justify our like mean bad things we do. Yes. Mina is like, she's looking at her mom also and her mom has like a sensible permed haircut. She's like, you have short hair. Like, why did you even steal these? You can't even use them. And her mom's like, I like them.
I want to have them. Okay, that's deranged. That's haunted behavior. I'm sorry. What do you do with this information? Anything? I mean, Mina deserves to get to keep them because Mina, I imagine, doesn't have short hair. And also really like them. Yeah. Do you tell your cousin? Never. I take that secret to my grave. Yeah. Mina is like...
Well, mom, like, what are you even going to use these hairpins for? Like, I know that you say you like them, but like, I could use them. Oh, mm-hmm. And her mom is like, Mina, you could borrow them. And Mina's like, thank you. And so Mina takes the hairpins and she wears them to work and everyone loves them.
Yay. It's a happy ending for Mina. We are at the end. How do you feel? Whose side are you on? I'm on Mina's side. Mina really came out on top. Mm-hmm.
She got to visit her homeland. She saw her matriarch of the family pass. She took part in all these rituals. She spent time with her cousin. Yeah. And she came out with the thing that she really wanted the whole time, which was the hairpins. Now, June was out of pocket completely, but I really respect her hustle. I really respect that she was willing to...
lie, cheat and scam in order to sell $60 serum. Yeah, she lied, cheated and scammed and then Mina's mom stole. Between the two of them, we have all of them. You know, we really got most of the sins covered. Do you want to hear my final updates? Yeah. Okay. So Mina's wearing the hairpins for months, right? She's going to work. They look so pretty. She loves them.
like a whole year after her grandmother passes her aunt texts in group chat Mina Mina's mom and her cousin Angie and she's like Mina
I just wanted to say, like, I'm so sorry for accusing you of stealing the hairpins. Like, that was wrong of me. I was really out of pocket. I forgot that, like, my mother had lent the hairpins to her sister. And then when I saw her sister recently, she brought them back to me. So now I have them. And, like, I'm so sorry for accusing you. That was really wrong of me. What? Okay. Not only am I shocked that an elder has apologized to a child. Yes.
It's just like... Never happens. Hell has frozen over. Beyond rare. It's the rarest Pokemon you can get. But also Mina is like, I have these hairpins on my head. I'm wearing them right now. Uh-huh. What do you do here? Again, I'm lying. And I'm taking those hairpins to my own casket. Mina's like...
Oh my God, can we see them? Like send a picture. Genius. Mina, always thinking two steps ahead. And her aunt is like, of course. And she sends the hairpins and they do look different than the ones that Mina has. Like they look very different actually. And Mina's like, huh, that's weird. And now she's like, well, if those are the hairpins, what are these? So she's like, oh, that's so weird. Like my mom actually found hairpins recently in a bag that she had taken on that trip. And like,
Do you know what these are? And she sends a photo of her hairpins into this group chat message. Whoa, that's bold. And they're all like, those seem to be hairpins that are gold also. And like our mother also had those. That's strange. Sonali. Kelsey. Do you know what an ear spoon is? No. Okay. Okay.
An ear spoon is a long stick that has a little, at the end of it, like a little concave cup. No, there's not. And you put that little concave cup into your ear. No, you don't. To remove the ear wax from it. Oh, God. And what Mina has been wearing in her hair for years are two gold-plated ear spoons. I'm reeling.
I'm really, that's horrifying. And this is why we have to care to learn about our cultures and our cultural history. Because how did no one tell me that that was, well, an ear spoon. Ear spoons. How do you feel now? There's a little bit of disappointment. This is what Mina has been wearing in her hair for months now. Mm-hmm.
But also, okay, it's silly and quirky and fun. Yeah. Mina is kind of like, you know what? I still think they're beautiful. And I still think that they look like hairpins. And no one can stop me from wearing them in my hair. And she's right about that. Because it's Ariel with the fork, you know? No one can stop me from looking like...
Look at this stuff. Isn't it neat? Wouldn't you say my collection's complete? The other updates I have for you is that since she has been using the foot serum and not walking under clotheslines and checking her blinking, Mina has had no more paranormal interactions. That is very relieving to hear. But she is still checking very carefully to make sure.
Sonali, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It was a delight to have you. Kelsey, this story was incredible. Thank you for having me.
Abigail Siegel is our intern. Dan McQuaid runs our merch store, which you can find at normalgossip.store. Tara Jacoby designed our show art. Thank you to Jasper Wang, Catherine Hsu, Patrick Redford, Israel Daramola, Ray Ratto, Chris Thompson, David Roth, Dave McKenna, and Luis Pais Pumar for your help on this season. And thank you to Hannah Bay for your help on this episode.
And thanks to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber-based media company, and Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia. I'm Kelsey McKinney, and please remember, you did not hear this from me. Radiotopia. From PRX.
