Shownotes Transcript
Hello, it's Kelsey McKinney. If you're a longtime listener of Radiotopia, you may know that we had a podcast that ran from 2016 to 2020 discussing every episode of the show, The West Wing. I am so excited to tell you The West Wing Weekly is back. Joshua Molina, who starred on The West Wing as Will Bailey, and Rishi Kesh Hirway, creator and host of Song Exploder, have reunited this election season for The West Wing Weekly Political Film Fest.
because watching and discussing art about politics can be a way to get perspective on what's happening in the world right now. And sometimes you just have to turn off the news and turn to fiction while sharpening your mind on the whetstone of political conversation. Each week, Josh and Rishi talk about a different political film with the same mix of analysis and humor that made the West Wing Weekly a hit.
The slate ranges from classics to modern day masterpieces like Dr. Strangelove, Network, and Judas and the Black Messiah. They're starting with The American President, the film written by Aaron Sorkin that would eventually lead to the creation of the West Wing. Join the conversation and the political film fest by subscribing to the West Wing Weekly wherever you get your podcasts.
Hello, and welcome to the season premiere of Normal Gossip. We are so happy to be back. I am Kelsey McKinney, and in each episode of this podcast, we're going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. I'm so excited to have with me today, Ashley Reese. I'm going to read your bio now.
Ashley Reese is a Los Angeles-born, New York-based writer who has spent most of her career reporting about politics, entertainment, and her own sex life. You've probably seen people yelling at her on Twitter. Her work can be found in New York magazine Jezebel, Essence, Teen Vogue, and more. She recently launched Bad Brain, a newsletter about life and sex.
death, pop culture, and the internet. She's writing a memoir documenting her journey from 25-year-old virgin to 33-year-old widow for Atria Books, an imprint of Simon & Schuster. Ashley, welcome to the podcast.
Hi, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. We're so excited to have you here. I'm ready to gossip. Oh, great, because that's what we're going to do. We're both you and I, children of the internet. We love to be online. Where does posting turn into gossip? I think that now so much of the gossip is in the subtweet.
Some of the best gossip I get is in the group chat. And it's like taking something you saw online, putting it in the group chat and being like, and I honestly think that more people should do that. Too many people put things on main, like put the messy, like I'm just like,
what you do you take a screenshot or a link drop it in the group chat and then talk shit yeah i also think part of like the art if you will of being a shit talker is knowing where to place it right because like if you are shit talking on bane in public where other people can see it
you open yourself up to criticism. Like if I want to shit talk, I don't want criticism. I want to be in a beautiful echo chamber of my friends who all dislike this person we're texting about. Like that's the whole point. I agree with you. But I also think that now we're in this time where like,
people don't have much sense, but they really want attention. So I think that's how you get into like, I think TikTok gossip is like a whole other level of how you kind of get, it's because it's one thing to be on Twitter and be like at least like semi-anonymous or just kind of be like a random kind of bitchy person online. But with TikTok, you have your face. Maybe people can very easily find your government name. Yeah. No, I think about this a lot, that there's like something about TikTok
gossiping, particularly on TikTok, where it's like you are essentially standing in front of a microphone to share this gossip. Yeah, it's a little more town crier. You know what I mean? It's a little bit more of that instead of just like you're with your girls with a small group chatting or even like the brevity that is required of a tweet. You know, when you're doing a little drive-by talk shit, then you're like, and people are like, whoa, who's this about? Who's this? Drive-by? Yeah.
Yeah, you know, and I've done that. I probably did that the other day and had people be like, girl, who is this about? And I'm like, let me tell you. But like, when you're doing it on TikTok, you have girls going on for like three minutes. I'm just kind of like, are you doing it for love of the game? Are you doing it to get attention? You know what I mean? Okay, I think that that is actually like we've reached what my actual problem with it is, right? Which is that like, it is about love of the game.
right like I'm like if you're a gossip for the love of the game you don't need attention you don't need views you just need laugh you need your friends laugh and that is the love of the game yeah I was told that you might have brought a gossip for me is that true oh I sure do can I have it yeah okay
So I have a friend. We've been friends for several years now. She generally dates women, generally attracted to women for as long as I've known her. And so it was to my great surprise when she told me that she was dating a man.
And I was like, oh, okay. Like, you know, it's the 2020s. Like, you know, you can do what you want. And I'm like, oh, okay. Interesting. Like, tell me more.
So she tells me about this guy. And you know when you want to be encouraging to a friend and you don't want to be like, oof. Yeah. So I try to do that. She mentioned that he's vegan, which is not against the law. That's fine. Sure. People are vegan. People are vegan and that's fine. My friend is not vegan. Okay. But then she told me that he required that she brush her teeth before kissing him. What?
Excuse me? Yeah. Because she eats animals and animal products and he doesn't. And he felt dirty, I guess, having her kiss him without having her teeth brushed first. And I guess this is something that she was willing to compromise on, but she didn't feel great about it. Okay. And I'm just like, okay, girl, do you. Like, it is what it is. One day he invites her over to stay the night.
She finds out by going to his apartment that he lives in a roach-infested apartment. And I... When I say roach-infested... No. I mean...
They were in bed and there was a roach in the bed. No, no, no. She went to shower. She reaches for the soap. There's a roach on the soap. She looks up at the ceiling. There are roaches on the ceiling. No, girl, you got to get out. Get out. Run. And you want to know why there are roaches in the house? I'm scared. Is it...
Is it because he values life so much? Is that why? He refuses to kill the roaches. He believes in the dignity of all creatures, big and small, including disgusting roaches. And this was a pickle for him because on the one hand, he was aware that this was, you know,
Not great. Yes. But not to the point of actually like getting an exterminator or getting some fucking raid. Doing anything about it. And inviting a girl over to stay the night in your roach infested apartment. So from then on, she didn't go over there. She invited him over to hers. And to which I was. Right. But I was always just like, what if he brings something to your place? What if he like.
traces in like a roach egg or something like on his shoes or on his clothes. Do our bed bugs also a form of life that we have to respect in this scenario? I would love to hear his take on that. But then he invites her over for a party and
She is a little apprehensive about this because, you know, there was a roach in their bed. But I think he said that he like promised to clean. He promised to like kind of straighten things up. He's like, I know bugs are an issue. Like we're going to clean. It's going to be fine. And my friend is a trusting person. And no girl.
Party night. She gets there. She brings some muffins and like some Prosecco or something. No, it's nice of her to bring the Roach's snacks. Funny that you say that. No! Fuck. You know how you're at a party and, you know, a party that's generally the place that isn't Roach's Fest and you just like maybe have a bite of something. You like set it down on a plate and you like maybe walk away for a second, do something else, chat, chat, chat.
She looks back like a minute later, swarming with roaches. The Prosecco bottle she brought, swarming with roaches. Just covered like, like just like, you know, just scattered like here, here and there. They're just like,
But you know, I'm actually not sure if the Prosecco bottle being covered in roaches was before after he, her boyfriend went into the dishwasher, opened it, tried to get a glass out of it for her roaches in the, in the, in the dishwasher, like in the little like crevice, you know, crevices of it, open the fridge.
There was a roach. No. Okay. Like, I'm trying to like wrap my mind around being in a room like this because like, I feel like the way that people respond to roaches is like visceral and loud often. Yeah.
Like people are shrieking when there are roaches around. So I'm like, how are people just hanging out at this party? I think a lot of people are also high. I imagined it. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe they were just like really chill about it. I mean, look, every single vegan I know would think this is an acceptable way to live. They would like, you know, even if they felt some sort of sympathy for it, they would just be like, this is a health hazard, which it is.
My friend spent the night sitting outside like on his porch to get away from the bugs. It was winter. The thing is, if a bug is outside with you, that's fine. You're in their house now. Yeah. Like that's allowed. Right. But I don't need to be inside with all the roaches. When you go when you're also going outside in New York City to escape pests. That's a bad sign. That's an issue. That's a really, really bad fucking sign, man.
so on the plus side, she, uh, there's no longer with this person. Okay, great. Uh, she dates women again. Uh, this is definitely something that would probably put someone off. They're like, they're like, yeah, I, I don't know why I did that. Um, but, uh, the, the, the less good thing about that is that she still stayed with him for another five months. Oh,
Also, like, I'm sorry to, this is, it's so gross, but I'm like, imagine brushing your teeth in this apartment because your boyfriend won't let you kiss him unless you've brushed your teeth. And his toothbrushes are just out on the counter in this home of roaches. Like, I'm like, girl. I really, I really hope he learned. I hope that he is in a better place to, I feel like he died. I hope that he's,
I hope that he's in a better like mental play mental space to like to decide that this is actually a priority and that like you were that's like peak scaring the host yeah
I also hope that he has found a way to control the roaches that does not make him upset. Like, there has to be a way. Right. I'm sure there is. I'm sure if you Google it with Reddit on the end, you will find something. You will find lots of stuff. Thank you for bringing me this terrifying roach boy gossip. It was disgusting and I did not like it. That's exactly what I wanted to hear. It's beautiful. Do you want to hear the gossip that I have special picked for you? Of course I do.
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You know.
It is the early 2010s and our friend of a friend, we're going to call her Victoria. Victoria has just graduated from high school.
She's thrilled. In some ways, though, graduating from high school is bad because two of her best friends have already left her hometown. And so she's like, I'm stuck here at home in my parents' house. I feel like an adult, but I'm not yet. And I'm desperate to leave. Not a girl, not yet a woman. Exactly. Yeah. And she's like, I'm going to get to leave, right? In the fall, I'm going to college. But for this one summer, I'm stuck here with no friends. Yeah.
She's like, but in some ways, graduating from high school and my friends being gone is actually fine because as a present for graduating, her parents got her her own laptop. Oh, wow.
why are you saying uh-oh already laptops aren't uh-oh i mean they're they're not in general unless you're a chaos agent in which they can be a big uh-oh and victoria is an internet girly like she spent most of her pre-teen years glued to the family computer like listening to that terrible sound as it connects to the internet so that she could like log on to aim and message her crushes oh yeah
She spent like all of her weekend hours messaging, setting up away messages with like meanings. But now she's like a little older. She's a little more mature. She's like, am I a little different now? She's like, I don't want to get onto AIM and just like message all these dummies I went to high school with. I don't want to get onto Facebook Messenger and message all these dummies I went to high school with. Like I want to imagine a bigger world. I want to discover aspects of myself. I want to form a community. She's like, I want to be creative. She wants...
To write fan fiction. Yes! Yes, that's exactly what I wanted to hear. You go, girl. You go, girl. A girl with my own heart. I love it. Can you tell the listeners a little bit about your history with fan fiction? Oh, my history with fan fiction is that I started reading fan fiction when I was, God, probably like sixth, seventh grade, like middle school in the early 2000s.
I read a lot of different fandoms, fanfiction, but my main fandom of choice was Harry Potter. And let me just say, fast forwarding like 20 years after getting involved in that, some of my best friends and the most important people who I know in my life I have met from fanfiction, not in the 2000s, but literally in the last like four years. Yeah.
Like, I'm literally, like, planning a trip to Crete with one of my girlies who I met through fanfiction. Another one who's fanfiction that I read, who I'm obsessed with. Like, we talk, and I'm not joking, every single day. She was over here. I went over to her. Yeah, it's kind of like a part of my life that, like, I say that I don't really, I don't like to talk to civilians about it because it's just, like, the girls who get it, get it. Yeah.
And the girls who don't, I don't want to have to, I don't like to explain myself too much about that. Totally. Yeah. And I've also written lots of fan fiction. Do I have a giant Google doc full of like big stuff that I just haven't published yet? Maybe. Who's to say?
Whose business is that? Do I want to maybe get that out of the way before my actual book? Yes. But anyway, streets will know what I published. Oh, my God. Okay. All fan fiction has like an object of its desire, right? So most major franchises have a fan fiction community famously like 50 Shades of Grey was Twilight fan fiction, right? But there's also fan fiction for tons of other like smaller franchises that aren't Twilight size.
For sure. There's like fan fiction for the Mighty Ducks. You know, the ice is cold, but the hearts are warm. Yeah. I literally read like Ed and Eddie fan fiction. Yeah, exactly. And Victoria is like, I want to have fun. Right. I want to be passionate about the thing I'm writing fan fiction about. And I want to have a depth of knowledge. Period. Which is why she picks the young adult book series Warriors. Yeah.
Also known as Warrior Cats. Yes! Wait! Do you know about Warrior Cats? Literally, someone actually... So I didn't read it growing up or anything, but someone actually mentioned this to me recently. I think maybe one of my friends who's a librarian mentioned this. But people love those books. People have like... People love books about...
You know, animals, warrior animals, cats, people definitely love cats. So yeah, to continue with this story, you do need to know some things about warrior cats. So I'm going to go through some things that I think are important. Okay. This book series began publishing in 2003. It is about anthropomorphic feral cats.
There are like 50 of these books now and they are still being published. Oh my God. Something I thought was fun when I was researching this is that the creator of this series, her name is Victoria Holmes. And like a publisher came to her and they were like, Victoria, we think a great idea is to write a bunch of books about feral cats.
And she said, you know, I don't know that there's enough material about feral cats. I don't know that I'm that interested in them. Here is a quote from an interview. Quote, but to make the story interesting for me personally, parentheses, because as most of you know, I'm not the greatest cat fan in the world, in parentheses. I put loads of extra stuff into the storyline, like war. Oh!
politics, revenge, doomed love, and religious conflict. Hell yeah. That's what I'm talking about. You got to make it juicy. You got to make the cat life juicy.
Yeah. One of the most common plots in Warrior Cats is forbidden love. I don't know if I want to imagine like cats like being intimate. This is also a problem that I have with this series, but you know what? No judgment. Go off whatever you like. Okay. Some other things you should know about the series is that the Warrior Cats are like divided into clans based on the terrain in which they live.
So like Wind Clan, Thunder Clan, River Clan, etc. And all the clans are hierarchical. And that hierarchy extends to naming conventions. So important cats have important names. Okay, like what is an important cat name? Thank you for asking. It's like the most important cat name is in like Star. So it's like a suffix situation. I see, okay. And the Warrior Cats universe also has a religion. Yes.
And the religion is called the Star Clan, which is where dead warrior cat ancestors go. And they can communicate via dream and omen. And they live in a paradise forest, which is basically heaven. But Warrior Cats also has a hell called the Place of No Stars, where the spirits of bad cats go. Oh, my God. That's crazy. Yeah.
Warrior Cats fan fiction is like incredibly popular. On fanfiction.net, there are only five bigger communities than Warriors and they are Harry Potter, Twilight, Percy Jackson, Lord of the Rings, and Hunger Games. And after those five is Warriors. After that is Warriors? You're kidding me. No. Okay. I have so many questions, but keep it going. Thank you.
Victoria begins reading. She's like, what I'm going to do is I'm going to read first before I write. So she reads all of these stories that exist already. And she's noticing that people are doing the kind of fanfiction where you create your own character and then...
what's happening and what she's noticing is that these characters are then showing up in other people's fan fictions right so like oh my god I write a fan fiction and I include your character in mine it's like it's I would call that fanon it's like kind of like it's like it's like a canon that the fans create I have a lot of feelings about that in a fandom that I am in uh Harry Potter fandom it's fine um it's happening a lot more than it used to and it drives me nuts but I want to know what Victoria thinks about this
Okay. Victoria's reading it and she's like, I love this. She's like, I love that people's characters are showing up. It's like to give a modern example. It's like when one of your friends animal crossing characters comes to your island, right? Like, oh my God, this is thrilling. She loves this. She begins writing like day and night. She gives her character a beautiful name. She names her cat baby moon.
moon she's like I love my cat baby moon and she writes her first story about baby moon who is not her who is a cat baby moon is all alone all of baby moon's friends have abandoned her and she's stuck in a place where she can't thrive but it's not a self insert got it it's not a self insert baby moon is different
And also Baby Moon is so beautiful, but she doesn't know it. She has dreams that are so much bigger than this small town. Oh my god. She's like a pop punk song. Yeah.
Can't fanfiction be a way to process your own life? Yes, it actually so is. I'm so serious. My friend and I talk about this all the time. We're like, we're processing our trauma through these like dead characters. So that's why self inserts as much as they're like, and like so cringe, there makes so much sense. Because if you're not doing it through a self insert, you're kind of putting your own trauma through another established character. Yes.
So for Victoria, she's like, Baby Moon is my best friend. Baby Moon is me. Baby Moon is helping. Oh, my God. Baby Moon. She publishes her first story about Baby Moon. And she's like, I'm so proud. Oh, no. The next morning, she has a private message on this platform. And the message is from someone named Howling Star.
Victoria clicks this person's like username, right? And Howling Star has more than 100 stories. And her character is in so many stories. Oh my God. Like Howling Star is an important warrior cat. Oh my God. Okay. And Howling Star is like, I read your story. It's super good. I really think it's great. You have so much like possibility. I really think you could be really good. But you clearly did not read the rules of this community. What? What?
Please read them as soon as possible. And she links.
And Victoria's like, oh my God, this is so embarrassing. All I want is to be part of this community. And now I have fucked up immediately. She goes to the rules and she's like, okay, let's see. And the rules are like, you know, like no using other people's characters without permission. She's like, okay, I didn't do that. The rules are like no plagiarism. She's like, great. I didn't do that. The rules are like no members of the council can date other members of the community. She's like, I don't even know what that means. But like midway down, she sees this like rule and it reads like,
All new characters for the Warrior Cats community must contain a full story arc. It does not matter if you are a longtime poster or a newbie. All new characters must start with the last part of their name as Paw. What? Oh my God. So because of the hierarchy thing? Oh, you gotta be kidding me. What? She like started off too high up on the rankings. It's like until you are granted your warrior name, you must use Paw. Okay.
And the council decides on all promotions. Who is the council? These random girls who decided they're on the council? I hate this. I hate this. What is going on in the warrior community? Victoria is like,
Oh my God, this is so bad. Like I named myself baby moon instead of baby paw. I have stolen valor. I am canceled. She's like, this is awful. And she's also upset because she's like, I've read all of these books. Like I should have known better. I like should have known better.
She's like, how could I have done this? So she has like six hearts on this original story. But you have broken a rule. Do you delete and republish? She shouldn't have to take anything down. That's insane. Like who died and made you the king? Right. Who made this council? Like, I've never heard of such a thing. She's like, okay, now that I know how the ranking system works.
I'm going to take this down. I'm going to replace baby moon with baby paw and I'm going to repost. Oh no. She does this. And a lot of people with their official warrior cat names are commenting and they're like, this is so good. Like we love it. Victoria's like, hell yeah. She keeps writing. She's writing every day for like three weeks. She's so committed.
Howling Star keeps like sliding into her messages with each of these stories. And soon Victoria learns that this girl's name is Kristen. Okay. So what did Kristen, what is Kristen saying? Kristen's whole deal is that she's like a senior in college and to Victoria, she's like unbelievably cool.
And Kristen is like generally like I'm sorry to bring our trauma as writers into this but Kristen is like queen of feedback right. She's always like I have a few notes. Oh my God. No. Anyone who's done fan fiction knows about this kind of reviewer who
Who was just like, maybe they mean well, but every single thing they have to say is like, here's what you could have done better. Here's how I would have liked it more. I hate people like that. Yes. Kristen sliding in like great start here. Like I see what you're trying to do. Right. Like, do you want to hop on the phone? Right. Like this whole thing. And like Victoria, because she's 18 is like, oh my God, this girl cares about me so much. Like she wants me to get better. Right.
Oh my God. So she's like, I'm going to try my absolute best. And she's also like being a little politically savvy here because she's like, you know, Kristen is on the council. Yeah. She can like elevate her. Kristen controls when I get my warrior cat name and I want my warrior cat name so badly. The best edit that Kristen gives her is that Kristen is like, the thing is baby paw doesn't have a lot of her personality. Like baby paw needs to have a more defining trait.
And Victoria is like, that's a great note. She's like, my idea is baby paw is baby. Like baby paw is dumb like a baby. That's her character trait. And so like her warrior cat baby paw is always up to like so many antics. Like she's so dumb. She makes the dumbest errors. Like that's her whole thing. Oh my God.
And the other writers love this because they're like, this is a really clear character who I can use to advance plot in my stories. So they're like, can we use Babypaw in our stories? And she's like, yes. And Babypaw is like the dumbest warrior cat alive.
Part of me is like, okay, that is a distinct personality. Part of me is almost like, oh my God, stand up, baby paw. Like have some self-respect. Baby paw forming on his baby moon. Like, wow. One day she gets a message from Kristen and Kristen is like, the council really likes you. Like we really like your work. She's like, I was wondering if we could add you to the inner circle. What? So soon? And Victoria is like, it's only been like six weeks.
And she's also disappointed because she really wanted her warrior cat to be like promoted. Right. So she's like, I don't want to be added to the inner circle. I want to be baby moon again. So she's like, this is fine. Sure. Whatever. Add me to the inner circle. And she's like, but like, what is it like what's going on in the inner circle? And basically,
what the inner circle is is it's like a group chat of course and Kristen is like oh like the inner circle is like the reigning authority on warrior cat fanfic and like the inner circle controls who gets their warrior cat name and when and the inner council like gives feedback on ongoing plots and like sometimes we co-write stories together oh my god Victoria is like I'm so thrilled to be in the inner circle thank you so much for having me
She's welcomed by everyone. Everyone's so happy to have her. But immediately she's like laser focused on one person. And that's because this person is cute. And his name is Jordan. Oh, a guy. Okay. Is it easy for you to get a crush? Hmm. Okay. So I think that's fandom spaces have so largely been
been like women and women dominated and I feel like I get surprised whenever I see a man in these spaces um and so for me I wasn't crushing on nobody I'm straight but you kind of like hit on something though that I think is important here which is that most fan fiction communities are like all women yes largely women and largely women and this community is largely women and Jordan
Who's straight, not gay. Like Jordan. Who's straight. Yeah. Yeah, he's straight. And like that means that Jordan is like catnip to this community, right? Oh my God, yeah. They're like, he writes poetry. He writes fan fiction. He listens to soft boy music. Like he's always asking people how they really are. Oh my God. But now that I'm like not like 18, I'm immediately like red flag. Yeah.
i'm like i'm like uh-oh okay soft boy his tumblr is really cool right like it's like red flag red flag red flag victoria is like a lonely 18 year old on the cusp of going to college right like she's involved in her childhood fandom this is like too easy jordan comes to her a couple weeks later and it's like can i put baby pa in one of my stories stop oh
Oh my god. That's like asking someone out. And she's like, oh my god, this is so romantic. Like, yes, you can.
his cat is named moth nose moth nose moth nose so nose as a suffix is like no he has another suffix like river or something the first name is moth nose that's one word oh my god okay okay moth nose yeah so for him to put baby paw in his story obviously they have to chat about it they have to chat about it all the time they're
They're chatting constantly about how baby Paul might respond about like what baby Paul might like. Oh my god. Yeah, that's the scenarios. Suddenly they're chatting about everything, right? Like he's telling her the things he dislikes about his university, right? She's like telling him about her fears, right? Chat, chat, chat, chat, chat, chat, chat. And also, I mean, just pointing out like these kind of like fandom friendships and interactions, they get pretty intimate pretty quickly. Like,
Yeah, it kind of in a way that even my like IRL friends like there are things that like I will so much sooner tell to a girl who I met three weeks ago through fan fiction. I would tell that I would tell to someone who's like one of my nearest nearest friends who I've known for like 10 years, you know, like your nearest dearest friends are listening to this getting pitchforks to go to her house. Like what the fuck are you telling me? I'm so sorry, guys. There is some shit that you just do not know.
Yes. So the intimacy is high. And Jordan one day is like, oh my God, should we co-write a story? Oh my God. That's like asking someone to have sex. Yeah. Like, is this a date? Like, does this count as a date? Oh my God. I like how firmly you're like, yes, that's a date. Yeah. Like, no, that is like, that's intimate.
Do you try and make your cats kiss in the story that you're co-writing? How do cats even kiss? I'm getting upset. I really hate animal stories. Like, I really, I am not charmed by them at all. I'm just like, I cannot imagine, like, no offense to my own cat, but like,
I don't want to kiss the cat. I don't want to think about cats making out. But yeah, I guess if I was trying to impress this Tumblr soft boy who wanted to have our cats in a store together, yeah, they're going to fucking make out.
So the thing is, Victoria is like, I don't think I can make the make out because like my cat baby paw is still an apprentice. So that's like an age gap discourse in terms of experience as a cat that like I don't want to get myself involved in. Oh, my God. She didn't want to get canceled. Yeah.
Yeah, so she asks Jordan and Jordan's like, oh, yeah, that makes like sense to me. That's like he's like, we can still make it very cute. Like we can still make them like kind of falling for each other and the forbiddenness will like make it better. Oh, my God. She finishes the draft and he like sends her edits back and he's like, I had an idea.
what if they didn't kiss, but they had a signal to show each other that they loved each other that wasn't kissing? Okay. I would have like folded if I was her. If like a cute guy was like, I want our characters to show that they love each other without showing it. You know, like I'd be like, oh, we're getting married now. Okay. Victoria's like, oh my God, is he proposing? Yeah. No, I would be like, we are married now. Just kidding.
Just so you know. She's like, well, what did you have in mind? And he's like, well, what if baby paw and moth nose would like tell each other they loved each other by like using their little paws? You know how like a cat will need like a blanket? Yeah. Yeah. Like that. Like they would need like each other or near each other or. Yes.
And Victoria's like, I think you're a genius. And I think that's a great idea. Oh, my God. They publish this story and people love it. They love that there's no kissing. They love the kneading. Because there's sexual tension. That's sexual tension. Oh, my God. Yes. And the kneading like makes its way into other stories. Wow. Because people are like, yes. Genius.
Victoria moves into her dorm in August. She's still obsessed with warrior cats, but like she's also obsessed with Jordan. She's going to parties. She's meeting people. And then late at night, she's like logging on to like do her little warrior cats. Right. Oh, yeah, I know. I know that balance. I know that song and dance. It's beautiful to have a second shift. Yes. No, that was literally me in college. It's just like going out and then coming home to talk about a certain fandom. Yeah. Yeah.
It is the early 2010s. Do you change your Facebook status to it's complicated if you're in love with a man on Warrior Cats forum who still calls you baby pops? Yo, at that point, if we're needing, if we're in the needing stage already for a minute, I don't know if it's complicated. There's something there. There's something there, man. Yeah. Victoria is like
Also delusional. So she's like, yeah, I love him. She sets her Facebook status to it's complicated. She really does that? Over the course of the year, they're like chatting, chatting, chatting. Right? She starts like submitting some stories to Kristen because she's like, I just want your feedback like before these publish. Yeah.
And Kristen keeps sending these back and being like, ma'am, this is smut. Like, this is not like you got to trim this girl. Like, this is not what this community is about. But like, what does that mean? What is warrior? Did you find out in your research? Did you find out what that looks like? I don't want to talk about it. Oh, my God. No. Kristen is also like, also, you're still an apprentice. Yeah.
Like you're still baby pa. Yeah, kind of know your place. And Victoria is like, well, when am I going to be promoted? And Kristen is like, don't worry. Like I'm going to get you promoted at the six when you hit your six month mark, which is like the earliest I can get you promoted. And Victoria is like, OK, in November, Kristen comes back and is like, we did it. We upgraded you. You are being promoted. Oh, my God. The council spoke.
The council has ruled that she can become Baby Moon again. Wow. That's a big promotion. I know. And Victoria is honored because she's like, I'm so happy that you remembered that Baby Moon was the name that I wanted. Okay, but wait. But then, like, is the guy's cat on her level now? Yes. Oh. Now they're on the same level. Uh-oh.
Uh-oh, indeed. Jordan sends her a mixed CD to celebrate. Stop it. She's like, now I'm not an apprentice. Now there's no more age gap. She's like, I want to write, I want to co-write a horny story. Not the horny cats. So she's talking to Jordan over DM one day and she's like, I have something to ask you. And he's like, I have something to ask you too. ...
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Do you want to go first or do you want him to go first? Oh my God. I want him to go first. Victoria wants Jordan to go first. She's like, okay, you go first. And he's like, okay, but it's like a little embarrassing. And Victoria's like, oh my God, no, it's not. I'm sure it's not embarrassing.
Her heart is like thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, right? And Jordan's like, okay, so it's like kind of personal. And Victoria's like, yes. Like, okay, what is it? Like, let's go. Jordan's like, okay, there's like some gossip going around. And Victoria's like, what? Her heart is sinking, right? She's like, what gossip? And Jordan's like, there's gossip that someone is leaving her.
the warrior cats community and a position is opening on the council. Wow. And Victoria is like, okay, I don't really understand what this has to do with us. Like what? She's like, that's not a question. And Jordan's like, well, I wanted to ask if you would be willing to like help me get elected for that seat.
And Victoria's like, that is not the question I wanted him to ask me. I want to be like, do you want to go to pound town? Take our cats into the pound town and create smut. You're talking about politics. I'm talking about fucking. Yeah. Yes. Do you see another problem here? Hmm. Let me see. Do you remember the rules? Oh, there's no relationships allowed between. Oh,
Members of the council cannot date members of the community. Oh, my God. But what about is she not in the council yet? I thought she was in the council. She's in the inner circle. Oh, but she's not on the council. She's not on the council. Wow. Okay. So to promote Jordan into the council is to promote your crush yet again into a forbidden place. No. So she can't. So she can't do it.
Or she doesn't want to. What do you think? I mean, do you let the ones you love go? It's like if you love them, let them go. It is kind of like that. But if it was me, I would try to convince him not to do it just so that we could have a relationship. I'd be like a little bit conniving.
Oh, Victoria is not conniving. Victoria is like, I'm going to tell him that I'll help him and then I'll decide later what I'm going to do. So she's like, oh, my God. Great. Love that for you. Totally. No problem. Because her feelings are also like hurt. Right. Because she thought that they were talking about something else that they were not talking about, which is being in love. Right.
Jordan at this point is like what was your question for me he's like he's just down to business she's like when will death come right like this is not what I want she's like I just wanted to see if you wanted to co-write a new story and he's like oh my god yeah I'd love to do that but she's like I can't tell him it's about fucking anymore I feel weird oh no couple days pass Kristen reaches out and is like I'm just doing this like straw poll do you know who you're gonna vote for do you tell her you're gonna vote for Jordan Jordan
Maybe, only if I don't think that Kristen suspects something is going on between us. Yes. So Victoria is like, I don't think Kristen has any suspicions. She's like, I've been thinking about voting Jordan.
And Kristen's like, oh, that's really interesting. That's like a really good idea. Like he'd be great. Good instincts. And Victoria is like, thank you so much. She's like, I love Kristen's approval almost as much as I love Jordan. Right. So Victoria votes for him. And of course, he wins. Oh, my God. So now their love is yet again a beloved plot of warrior cats in that it is forbidden. Oh, my God. This is just it. She can't win. When will baby moon win?
When is it baby moon's turn to be happy? Right. Exactly. They're still chatting every single day, telling each other what they eat for dinner, what the weather's like, how their classes are. This is intimate. Yes. In the spring, the inner circle decides that they should all meet up IRL. And they're calling this jokingly KittyCon. Yeah.
I mean, look, I can't knock down meeting fanfiction friends IRL because I've done it several times, many times. I was literally at a wedding recently of a friend who I know primarily. People are like, oh, how did you guys know each other? I say live drill. We were in a fucking role-playing game in 2010. She admitted. Yeah, exactly. So I'm not against it. The name Chopped.
But like everything else, the concept. Yeah, sure. Like, I love meeting fandom friends in person. Yeah. And it's like for Victoria, she's like, it's a summer between my freshman and sophomore year. Like famously a bad summer because you've like tasted the freedom of college and then been forced to. Right.
And she's like, I have some work study money. Like, it's totally worth it to buy a ticket for this 10 hour Greyhound to get to where Kristen lives. Okay. See, I think like a long travel, that's something that I feel like I'd have to work up to. But hey, I guess I look, you have the opportunity. Okay. Why not take the 10 hour Greyhound? Yeah. Victoria is also like, finally, I'll meet Jordan in person.
Oh, my God. Like, this is huge for me. The time comes. She boards the bus. She gets they're going to where Kristen lives. And this is because like Kristen is a senior in college. And so she has like off campus. Okay. So they're going to her city so they can stay at her place. Wow. Okay. Victoria is like so nervous. She's like, what if they don't think I'm cute? IRL. What if they don't like me? Like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They meet at a board game cafe.
okay chop but keep on going keep going jordan stands up to hug her to greet her uh-huh and she's like oh my god he's taller than i thought because they know what each other looks like at this point i'm guessing yeah yeah yeah but he's taller you don't even see them in person yeah and she's like he's so cute and then he like he doesn't sit next to her but he like looks at her a lot oh no what do you think about this
Oh, he has. He definitely has a crush on her or at least just wants to. Let me let me not. There's something going on. After the games, they all go back to Kristen's house. The girls are all staying there, obviously.
Jordan is like gonna sleep somewhere else because he's like the only boy. I was about to say like where is he gonna go? Yeah. He's like hanging out late. He's like sitting next to her. He keeps like telling her how excited he is to see her but he's also telling everyone else that he's really excited to see them. Uh oh. And so she's like hmm. And like when people are talking it's like clear that people know things about him that she doesn't know. Oh. So she's like excuse me? Oh.
And then he's like, do you want to seltzer? I'm going to go get a seltzer out of the fridge. And Victoria is like, yeah, of course I want to seltzer. And then she watches him walk to the kitchen. She's like, he's so cute. He's so tall. And then she watches as he's like passing Kristen, who's getting more snacks that he like uses his little hands like their paws. And he like needs her shoulder on the way by. Not needing.
No. Oh, no. He hasn't needed anyone else that day, has he? No, he has not. No, I'd be heartbroken. Victoria is watching all night, right? Like now she's on high alert. She's paying close attention. And she notices that like he's always touching Kristen when he passes. And like he knows where things in Kristen's apartment are. No. Oh, OK. It's a wrap. It's a wrap.
And she's like, I have never been filled with more envy and more anger in my entire life. She's like, Kristen has everything I want. She has star status. She's an editor. She's dating Jordan. Like, this is terrible. Oh, my God. You have also, you're Victoria. You have also noticed that he's like flirty with everyone. Do you tell the others? That he and Kristen are together? No.
Oh, I would definitely ask like, hey, do you know if any, like I would act like I don't care at all. I'd be like, hey, is there something going on between Jordan and Kristen? I'd act like I did not care while I was like dying inside, like wanting to cry because you just drove, like imagine being in a Greyhound for 10 hours thinking that you're going to have some intimate one-on-one time with like the guy that you've been like fantasizing about doing like kitty smut with for like a year. Months, yeah. Yeah. No. No.
Victoria is like, here I go, right? I'm young. I'm petty. I'm about to start asking some fucking questions. So she's like, does anybody know like if Jordan has a girlfriend? Like are he and Kristen together? And everyone's like, girl, we don't know what you're talking about. Like, I don't think so. Doesn't seem like Jordan has a girlfriend. Like he talks to everyone all the time.
And she's like, I don't know. I like saw something in the kitchen. I saw him like need her shoulder. And they're both on the high council. Wait, are they allowed to be together if they're both on the high council? Okay, really good question. Theoretically, yes, but he wasn't on the high council until she elected him there. Oh. There's also a problem here, which is that
The other girls in this group have conflated Victoria with baby paw. And so they're like, baby paw. She's dumb. You're so dumb. Oh, my God. No. They're like, we love you so much. But like it.
It's very clear from your stories that you're like in love with Jordan. And like, everyone knows that. Oh my God, they clocked her. And they're like, we get it. You're jealous, but like, you don't need to like project things onto Kristen. Stop. And she's like, oh my God, I'm not projecting. Like, I'm not, I swear to you. I like saw these things and they're all like, okay, like we love you, but you got to calm down. They're gaslighting her.
You're now betrayed by your crush and your idol, both of them. What do you do after this weekend is over? I don't know. I feel like maybe the stories might change a little bit. I don't know if I want to collab as much. I don't know, unless I know the truth.
Yeah. Victoria is like, you know, she gets home. She's disillusioned by the warrior cats community. She's like, people are gaslighting me. I'm being lied to. She's like stewing. And she decides, you know, if all of these girls think that I'm in love with Jordan because of my stories, then that means that like they also think that they're telling on themselves in their stories. So I'm going to go back and like read all these stories and see what I can figure out. Good.
So she's reading everyone's stories like back into the past before she got there. And she's realizing that like at different times, Mothnose has been in everyone's stories. Oh my God. He's like the fandom bicycle. Oh no. And all of the stories like revolve around his character. They are getting played. These girls are getting played by what? Mothnose? Mothnose. Oh my God.
oh no maybe they were sitting maybe they're acting like that because they've been played in the past okay so this is what victoria thinks and she's like dming them and she's like okay girlies are we all acting like this because we've all been played like is this the john tucker must die scenario like what is going on and all the girls are like oh no i don't really like feel like i've been played it's just like that's kind of how like the stories like got edited when he helped us edit them come on no and victoria's like
Okay. But she's also like, huh, if Jordan is dating Kristen and Kristen is famously an editor, is Kristen not just editing everyone's story, like providing notes to make everyone's character be in love with Jordan? No.
She's like, oh my God, have I been like edited into this crutch? Oh my God. Wait, is Kristen like the puppet master? She's like, is Kristen the puppet master? She's like, oh my God. And she starts trying to like remember what it is she liked about Jordan. Right. She's like, what is it that I liked? And she's like, oh, you know what I really liked? I really liked his poetry. And so she like goes to his Tumblr. She's like reading his poems and she's like,
These are so bad. Like I was wearing the like rose colored glasses of crush. And these are like, they do not make any sense. Oh my gosh. Didn't like a soft boy poems after all. Didn't like a soft boy poems after all. And also she's like, these are just like not good. Like he's not a good writer. She's like, so how is it that he was like co-writing stories with me? Right. Was it Kristen all along? It was fucking Kristen all along. Oh my God.
Wait, so they were in cahoots? They were in cahoots. Stop. You have now been betrayed. Like, emphatically betrayed. On every level. On every level. Oh my god. What do you do?
This is when I would probably talk to someone who I've befriended in that fandom who was none of those people and would start talking some shit and being like, asking them what I should do. Because I don't think the people and the counselor are to be trusted. They didn't believe her before. They didn't know when they were being manipulated. They thought that this was just, oh, Baby Moon's stupid. Like, no, Baby Moon is smart.
actually you guys are stupid like yeah no i wouldn't trust any of them i she's been betrayed left right and center no i think i would be so disillusioned that i would like dip unless i just really loved warrior cats that much victoria is like fuck the council
Fuck Jordan. Fuck Kristen. Like, I'm going out in a blaze of glory. Like, she's like, I am gonna write a fanfiction to get me through this. That's what I'm talking about. And she writes a fanfiction where baby Moon has a crush. And the crush is a new warrior cat named, like, you know, something stupid paw. And something stupid paw is a poet. Oh!
And she gives something stupid paw in this, in this story, all of Jordan's bad poetry, like the actual like verbatim, the actual verbatim poems that he has like sent her. Oh my God. And she's like, this is going to get him right. Like she's like,
written this like fuck boy warrior cat character. Oh my God. She publishes this at a time when like she knows Kristen is busy. And so like it can be up for a while without anyone commenting on it. Oh my God. Everyone in the warrior cats community is like baby moon. This is such a good story for real. Like the fuck boy character is great. His poems are so bad. Like you're such a good writer. How did you even write this bad of poems?
Like, you're a genius. Oh my god, wait, I love that for her, but I feel like she's gonna suffer the consequences.
it is like the most popular thing she's ever written and she's getting like a ton of credit for putting herself at the head of this terrible poet and so now she's like now is the time to appear as god did to saul and be like the scales must fall from your eyes right like the bad poet is jordan he can't write these are his poems and not his stories and not his stories and
And the scales fall from the warrior cat girl's eyes. And they're all like, oh, my God. And they're also catching on to something that you caught on to, which is like, were they dating before the council? Listen. At this point, the warrior cat girls, not including Kristen, have a quorum. And together as a quorum, they decide that they're going to initiate an investigation.
And the way they're going to do this is they're going to call in a third party person to investigate this. And the person they call in... Oh my god, like a Robert Mueller? Literally, they're like, who is an investigator in the Twilight community? They're going to bring them over here and they're going to figure this out. Not getting someone from Twilight community. Stop it. They bring someone from Twilight over. The Twilight girl is like interviewing everyone. She's trying to figure shit out. But she's also like
why is your community like for virgins like why can't people date that's kind of that that is kind of crazy yeah and all the weird cat girls are like oh my god that's a great point like why can't people date like this doesn't make any sense not the twilight girl like being like y'all are prudes yes the twilight girl's like come on man like
fine actually wow the twilight girl does eventually find out and reveal that kristen was dating jordan before he was on the council oh my god so that's strike one but what the twilight girl also finds out is that kristen has been preferential editing everyone's stories to make jordan look good
Yo, what kind of relationship is this? I don't know. I don't know, though. The Warrior Cats girlies were doing it like this. The drama, the intrigue. We are almost at the very end. Whose side are you on? How do you feel?
do you think there's a moral here i respect our girl victoria for being like if i'm gonna go out i'm going out in a blaze of glory and having everyone end up on her side yes i love that but i also worry that she's gonna i'm worried that she's gonna get like blowback from this is she gonna get kicked out like i don't know i'm worried about our girl i do have some final updates for you
which is that Kristen and Jordan co-wrote a story that sent both of their cats to the land of no stars. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. They sent themselves to the land of no stars? Correct. What kind of self-flagellation is this? So they killed themselves in the story? Yes. And sent themselves to cat hell. Okay.
Oh, wait, this is so funny. It's so funny. Oh my God. I hope they're married. I hope so too. I don't know what happened to them. No one gave me an update on that, which is upsetting. Oh my God. After they left, everyone was like, the council is dumb. The rules are dumb. We're not doing that anymore. We're just going to go back to writing regular fan fiction, like regular people. Hell yeah. As it should be. Which meant Victoria could promote herself to star. So she was thrilled about that.
Oh my God. And after she graduated college, she was like, okay, I don't have time for this anymore. Like I'm not doing this anymore. But like five years after she graduated from college, like kind of recently, she was at a party and,
And she was like talking to someone about the early internet. And this person was like, oh my God, I used to be in this fan fiction community that had this whole drama because two of the moderators were dating. But then this girl wrote an iconic story about how the head moderator's boyfriend was a terrible poet. And then he got run out of the community and the Twilight fan fiction people talked about it for years. Oh my God. So it must have been Laura. Do you...
Admit to this random stranger that it was you. Yes. Immediately. I immediately say that that was me. But that's me. And they're not a civilian because they know some shit. I would be like, that was me. If you pull off a heist, you should get credit for it. So Victoria is like, yeah, it was me. Yeah.
Oh, my God. That is the perfect, perfect ending. It's so beautiful. No notes. Wow. Great. Do you have any final thoughts or feelings? Well, I mean, go Victoria. This was so true that like you really do put...
a bit of yourself into the stories you write and this worked to her advantage to get some revenge and I appreciate that but you know what she lucked out it has a happy ending it could so easily there are so many of these girls who try to go on a power trip when they have any amount of power in these little communities action role playing this was a great great love this ending for her
Ashley, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It was a delight to have you. Thank you for having me. And this was the perfect story for me. Thank you. Oh my God, of course. Thank you for listening to Normal Gossip. If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us at normalgossip at defector.com or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679-GOSSIP.
If you love this podcast and want to support us, become a friend or a friend of a friend at supportnormalgossip.com. You can follow the show on Instagram and TikTok at normalgossip. You can follow Kelsey on all social media at at McKinneyKelsey. This podcast was produced by Alex Sujong-Loughlin, Ozzy Linus Goodman, and Jay Tolvier. Justin Ellis is Defector's Projects Editor.
Jasper Wang and Sean Kuhn are Defectors business guys. Alex Sujong Laughlin is Defectors supervising producer. Tom Leigh is our editor-in-chief. Abigail Siegel is our intern. Dan McQuaid runs our merch store, which you can find at normalgossip.store. Tara Jacoby designed our show art.
Thank you to Rachel Hampton, Brandi Jensen, Sabrina Imbler, Dave McKenna, Chris Thompson, Heather Chen, Ray Rotto, David Roth, Catherine Hsu, Jasper Wang, Israel Daramola, and Patrick Redford for your help on this season. Thanks to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber-based media company. Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia. Normal Gossip is hosted by Kelsey McKinney.
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