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Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, the host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm John Walczak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona. And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI.
In 2001, police say I killed my family and rigged my house to explode before escaping into the wilderness. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. Join me. I'm going down in the cave. As I track down clues. I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Hunting. One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world. Robert Fisher. Do you recognize my voice? Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.
Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America.
Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, and welcome to Haunting, Purgatory's premiere podcast. I'm your host, Teresa. We'll be bringing you different ghost stories each week, straight from the person who experienced it firsthand. Some will be unsettling, some unnerving, some even downright terrifying. But all of them will be totally true.
Listen to Haunting on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. George Wagner IV was trying to keep the testimony of family members who have already confessed out of his trial. His lawyers argued Tuesday that his brother Jake and his mother Angela should not be allowed to testify against him.
Defense lawyer John Parker argued that such an agreement violates due process. In the end, Circuit Court Judge Randy Deering ruled against the defense motion, meaning that both Jake and Angela can testify and that their confessions can be used in court. Welcome to the Pikedon Massacre, a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. Season 3, Episode 6, Trial and Error.
I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Lidecker and Jeff Shane. We're breaking down the court proceedings against the Wagners as they currently stand, as well as looking into information on the courtroom players.
The test is, can you get 12 people from Pike County that can be fair and impartial and give that Mr. Wagner, give the state of Ohio a fair trial? On January 19th, 2022, George Wagner's attorneys filed a motion for a change of venue. They basically outlined the reasons why they believe
A fair and impartial jury cannot be seated in Pike County. They say they will be providing the court with evidence of this, just prejudicial, negative pretrial publicity. I mean, there are people who are scared as Wagners too. So you may find people who are like, "I am not doing this." Death penalty cases are hard. And I think they're meant to be hard, to be honest, because there's a lot at stake.
In Ohio, just knowing about it or being present or driving the getaway car or being a part of this conspiracy, in Ohio, you're just as guilty. George IV's case is set to go to trial, and that is even if they can find a jury in time, because in Ohio, when you're selecting a jury, you have to pick a jury in the venue in which the crime happened.
As a reminder, at this point, the Wagner family, once seemingly tight-knit, are fully unraveling. Jake Wagner was the first domino to fall, pleading guilty to murdering five of the A. Rodens in exchange for testifying against his family. Matriarch Angela Wagner folded next, pleading guilty to conspiracy to commit aggravated murder and other charges as part of her plea deal.
Here's reporter Anjanette Levy. Angela Wagner pleaded guilty. She admitted to her role in the planning of these homicides, and she could get out after serving 30 years. It's not a given, but she's eligible for release after serving 30 years. She admitted to basically helping plan all of this and carry it out, but she did not go to the scenes of the murders that night.
That leaves two remaining suspects, Father Billy Wagner and his 30-year-old son, George Wagner. Both have pled not guilty and are awaiting trials. In some of these hearings, all of four defendants, each defendant was made an offer by the state to cooperate. So Jake and Angela took that offer, and it appears that George IV and Billy did not. So that's kind of where we are right now.
Aunt Jeanette theorizes that there's little chance for a plea deal for George and his father at this stage after four years of steadfastly denying any involvement in the slayings. I would think the only incentive for either one of them to plead guilty would be to go to the state and say, okay, I'll plead guilty. Just take the death penalty off the table. I don't see why the state would offer them any reduced time, especially if you've got two other family members who are willing to testify against them.
Jake pleaded guilty and he's going to prison for the rest of his life. The only way he's leaving there is in a box and he knows that. So there would be no reason that the state, in my opinion, would make any other offer to Billy or George. The state of Ohio is represented by prosecuting attorney Robert Junk, also by special prosecuting attorney Angela Canepa. Angie Canepa has been a special prosecutor on this case from the outset.
We've heard a lot from Angie Kanepa in the courtroom this season, but didn't know much about her. Here's former prosecutor Anne Flanagan, followed by Stephanie and Jeff. Well, she seems very calm. And it's a nerve-wracking experience because there's so much you have to stay on top of. And it seems like they're depending on her quite a bit. But she doesn't seem rattled by it. She seems very self-possessed and focused.
And I think in my mind, when I've handled cases and often had children as victims or others, I know that I am working and fighting for that victim and for that family. And that helps me put aside any of my own nervousness or edginess. Not that it won't be there, but it helps me put it in the right place.
So here's what we know about Angie Kanepa. She's the special prosecutor. We know that she studied undergrad at Bowling Green State University. She also went to law school at Ohio State, started practicing law in 1990, and she worked for the Franklin County Prosecutor's Office in Columbus for over 20 years before going to the Ohio Attorney General's Office in 2013.
In May of 2020, she raised eyebrows when she resigned from the Attorney General's office with a one-sentence letter that read, "Effective June 20th, 2020, I hereby resign my position as Section Chiefs within the Special Prosecutions Section of the Ohio Attorney General's Office."
Now, when asked for a comment about the sudden and sort of curt departure, a spokesperson for the office referred the press back to Kanepa. That would just, to me, imply that they didn't want to deal with it and they were washing their hands clean of her and her relationship with the office.
That's interesting that she resigned mid-trial. You know, they were in the thick of it in June of 2020, and these trials were ongoing and just really about to heat up. So for her to depart and then come back as a special prosecutor is interesting. I mean, when it happened, people in Pikedon were like, are the trials falling apart? Is everything folding? Is this going away? It brought a lot of uncertainty to the case, at least for the public.
However, it couldn't have been all bad blood because just a few weeks after this resignation, Canepa was brought back on the case as a special prosecutor at the rate of $65 an hour. That's actually around double the average of a prosecutor's salary in Ohio, who usually make around $33 an hour. And to sort of add perspective to that, you know, defense attorneys can make $600 an hour, if not more sometimes. So to work for the state as an attorney, you're definitely not in it for the money.
Each Wagner trial was expected to cost a million dollars for the state. That's actually a bit lower than the national average, which is about 1.3 million per case. In talking to a lot of Piketon locals, people in Pike County particularly are kind of frustrated and fed up with how long these cases are taking because they feel that it's taxpayer dollars that are being spent.
You got to keep in mind, though, this is four capital murder trials at one point. Those do take time, right? The wheels of justice sometimes can move slowly, perhaps for good reason. Rob Junk is an important figure in Pike County and plays a very large role in the prosecution of the four Wagners.
At age 55, Rob Junk has been practicing law since 1991 after completing his undergrad at Case Western Reserve University. He also went to law school at Cincinnati College of Law. He's been prosecuting attorney in Pike County since being elected in 1996.
And most recently, he actually ran to become the Pike County Commons plea judge, an election that he won. And he's due to actually take office in 2023 at some point. It's pretty unclear at the moment how this shift in his position will affect the Wagner cases. But as part of his campaign, he vowed to fairly and impartially enforce and apply the law. ♪
So aside from working the road in cases and winning elections, Junk is also involved in a pretty public feud with former Pike County Sheriff Charles Reeder, who we all know has come under some scrutiny for illegal activities that he's partaken in. It all started in November 2018, when there was an anonymous complaint filed against Reeder just days before the Wagners were arrested. The complaint read, "Reeder just does whatever he wants and no one ever calls him on it."
In May of 2019, Junk asked Reader to step down from any criminal investigations. Reader fired back in a public and since deleted Facebook post that read, At one point, Reader wrote another post saying,
Rob Junk responded, also on Facebook, surmising that the request to recuse himself from investigations caused the outburst. He wrote, again on Facebook, So these are two publicly elected officials fighting on Facebook.
It's a pretty big deal to have a very public dispute like this between the prosecutor and also the sheriff who was, you know, in office when these murders happened and is currently doing time for allegedly taking bribes. It could be seen as a very messy feud being played out publicly. While George Wagner's defense team staunchly defends his innocence, the prosecution's theory is that George had his hand in the murders as much as anyone else.
Veteran Ohio prosecutor Anne Flanagan elaborates on this. When you have these people bolstering each other and actually sharing ideas and dynamics, they're just as much a part of all that ended up happening as the person who actually pulled the trigger. And I know that, and I think jurors know that, and people know that, but will they really hold them accountable?
We know that people in a mob act differently than people individually. If people in that mob step back and don't participate and step away from it, it may not happen. And what a difference that would have made in the lives of the rodents. Jake and his testimony said his brother was at the crime scene but didn't shoot anyone. Here's producer Chris Graves. The information she's referencing is taken directly from Motion 80.
Jake's own conduct in the murders has been corroborated by his disclosure of murder weapons. It is also true that the truck allegedly used by Jake and Billy in the murders has been recovered as a result of his proffer. But Jake has stated clearly that George did not shoot anyone, did not fire a shot, was not supposed to go with Jake and Billy on the murder spree, and only went at the last second to protect Jake from Billy, who was thought to...
he might kill Jake at the end of the series of aggravated murders, presumably to get rid of a witness. In the state of Ohio, planning and executing a murder is still murder, even if you don't pull the trigger. There's also evidence that George bought the truck used the night of the murder. George Wagner's trial is set for August 29th. His father, Billy Wagner's trial will be later this year.
And as often happens in murder trials, Georgia's defense team has filed a flurry of motions to suppress evidence and expert testimony to stymie the prosecution's case. Defendants' motion 65, which is entitled "motion to compel production of other acts' evidence pursuant to evidence rule 404 . And then defendants' motion number 77. Pretrial motions on both sides, especially in a murder case, are routine.
The presiding judge holds initial hearings to see whether certain evidence should be allowed in front of a jury, and in this case, where the trial should even happen. Today is May 2nd, 2022, and this is a hearing. We have a hearing scheduled on motions today. The defendant is present in court with his attorneys, John Patrick Parker and Richard M. Nash.
Here again, Stephanie and Jeff on what we know about George Wagner IV's defense team. According to our research, it's actually not that common to have more than one criminal defense lawyer. However, when you're being charged with a crime as severe as George's, having more than one lawyer actually might be pretty helpful in the sense that they have different areas of focus or that they're able to work different hours and thus get more work done.
George Wagner's defense attorney is John Patrick Parker. He's been practicing criminal defense in Ohio for 33 years and is based out of Cleveland. He also attended Case Western Reserve Law School. The second attorney for George Wagner is Richard Nash, and Richard is a local lawyer based out of Portsmouth. His areas of focus are criminal defense, traffic offenses, as well as post-conviction dealings.
At 46 years old, he was born in Oklahoma City and attended Cleveland State University for law school and has been practicing law since 2004. In our research of Richard Nash, we actually found out that a previous client is also involved in this story. He represented none other than Michael Moran when he was facing sex trafficking charges back in 2020.
And remember, Michael Moran represented George's grandfather and Angela's father, petty criminal Pug Carter, years ago. This means that the lawyer who is currently defending George used to defend the lawyer who defended Angela's dad. It's a little complicated, but it speaks to how this community is very much tied together. It's super interesting, by the way, even just seeing all of the players come together because they're steeped in history.
We're going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind.
Stories about regaining a sense of safety, a handle on reality after your entire world is flipped upside down from unbelievable romantic betrayals. The love that was so real for me was always just a game for him. To betrayals in your own family. When I think about my dad, oh, well, he is a sociopath. Financial betrayal.
This is not even the part where he steals millions of dollars. And life or death deceptions. She's practicing how she's going to cry when the police calls her after they kill me. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm John Walzak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona. And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI. Oh my God.
In 2001, police say I killed my family. First mom, then the kids. And rigged my house to explode. In a quiet suburb. This is the Beverly Hills of the Valley. Before escaping into the wilderness. There was sleet and hail and snow coming down. They found my wife's SUV. Right on the reservation boundary. And my dog flew. All I could think of is him and the sniper me out of some tree.
But not me. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. For two years. They won't tell you anything. I've traveled the nation. I'm going down in the cave. Tracking down clues. They were thinking that I picked him up and took him somewhere. If you keep asking me this, I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Searching for Robert Fisher. One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.
Do you recognize my voice? Join an exploding house, the hunt, family annihilation today and a disappearing act. Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I spent almost a decade researching right wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters.
But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. I've collected the stories of hundreds of aspiring little Hitlers of the suburbs, from the Nazi cop who tried to join ISIS, to the National Guardsman plotting to assassinate the Supreme Court, to the Satanist soldier who tried to get his own unit blown up in Turkey. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. And you can laugh. Honestly, I think you have to. Seeing these guys for what they are doesn't mean they're not a threat.
It's a survival strategy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America. Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm a neuroscientist at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring the three-pound universe in our heads. We're looking at a whole new series of episodes this season to understand why and how our lives look the way they do. Why does your memory drift so much? Why is it so hard to keep a secret? When should you not trust your intuition?
Why do brains so easily fall for magic tricks? And why do they love conspiracy theories? I'm hitting these questions and hundreds more because the more we know about what's running under the hood, the better we can steer our lives. Join me weekly to explore the relationship between your brain and your life by digging into unexpected questions.
Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Under federal rules, the presiding judge is termed, quote, the gatekeeper of what evidence will be allowed. Here's 30-year Hamilton County, Ohio, Judge Patrick Dinkelhocker on the functions motion serve.
You're cleaning the slate so you can have a nice clean trial. You're getting rid of all those things that, wait a minute, I don't like the color of the curtains in this room. You file a motion. You don't want to bring that motion in the middle of the trial because it's like you waited halfway through the trial and there's no sense in it now. In its simplest forms, these are things that need to be taken care of so that you can have a fair, clean trial.
In a drug possession case, for example, the defense might ask the judge to exclude drug paraphernalia that the defense argues was obtained through an illegal search of the defendant's house. In a murder trial such as this, a motion may seek to suppress key witness testimony or ballistics findings. Often motions highlight issues with the case that become the basis for an appeal down the line.
One looming concern for the defense was the issue of venue. George IV's trial was originally slated for March 20, 2020, but in January, his attorney issued a motion to change the trial venue to a different jurisdiction.
Judge, this is obviously one of the highest profile cases in the history of this community. There were news conferences held by the Attorney General, by the local sheriff, by different members of law enforcement, updating the community on the status of the investigation. It went on for two and a half years. And this is subject to great social media discussion in the community.
And it's our point of view that a jury will not be able to be selected here. That's fair to our client, given all this publicity, given all the notoriety of this case. We're asking the court to change venue. In essence, the defense argued that the murders were so widely followed locally that voir dire, the process of finding impartial jurors, was impossible in Pike County.
We don't think the court can get a fair jury even though there are many people that probably would give it their best effort. But we don't think if people are being really honest with themselves and with the court that they're going to be able to say that they're able to put aside everything they know about the case, whether it's true or not true, and give George a fair trial. Mike Allen is a criminal defense attorney in Cincinnati and a legal analyst for Fox 19 in Cincinnati.
He makes a crucial point about the essential fairness of most jurors. It's a motion for change of venue. Those motions are frequently filed in high profile cases. They're frequently filed, but seldom granted. However, in this case, though, because Pike County is such a small county, and I don't know how many registered voters they have, they might have a problem seating a jury.
But here's the thing, and this is probably the most important part of this, and I don't think a lot of people realize it. If a potential juror who is under oath answers a judge's question, can you divorce yourselves and block out of your mind?
Any pretrial publicity that you have heard and render a verdict based upon the evidence and the law, if that juror says, yes, your honor, then that's a good juror. I mean, just because someone has seen or heard or read a newspaper article about it, that does not disqualify them. Because if it did, probably 99.9% of the people in Pike County would have seen or heard something about it.
Retired Judge Sylvia Hendon, who spent 33 years on the bench in Hamilton County, 200 miles from Piketon, has a different view of things. I think the change of venue in this case is probably going to be the most hotly debated both before and after the trial. Again, Pike County is a county of somewhere between 25 and 30,000 people. It is going to be extremely difficult, in my opinion, to find people in that county
who don't know somebody involved in the case and don't have an opinion on what happened. Here again, Mike Allen.
If it were not a small county, I think it would be a no-brainer that the venue would not change. But because it is such a small county with a small number of registered voters, they might blow through all of them. But there used to be a law, and I think it's still there, that if you run out of registered voters, a judge can basically send his bailiff or the cops or anybody at his discretion and just literally pull them off the street.
The other thing you have to think about, and I thought about while reading this thing, with respect to a change of venue, okay, he grants a change of venue, but to where? I mean, where in the state of Ohio, in the Midwest, where could a judge send it to where there was not all this pretrial publicity? I mean, as you well know, this is a case of immense public curiosity and uncertainty.
People are going to read about it and watch things on TV and read the newspaper. It's just like, okay, we'll change the venue, but where and to what end? In addition to the venue challenge, Ann Flanagan says a lot of potential jurors will simply not want to serve on this controversial trial.
We see jurors that don't want to be there, they're just uncomfortable. And so what happens sometimes, you'll see one juror say, "I can't be fair." And then you try to question why they can't be fair, and they really don't have any reason. They're just saying they can't be fair, right? This or that. Well, then two jurors down the road will come up with the same thing. They learn how to get off of a jury.
Judge Patrick Dinkalocker, famous for trying the first woman in Hamilton County for the death penalty, lays out another potential scenario of jury contamination. Okay, you said you saw the newspaper. What did you actually read? Did you see it on social media? Did you talk to your friends about it? Did you text anybody about it? I think those are all relevant questions and questions that the attorneys will ask regarding, you know, whether or not they're going to be fair and impartial. Because they can obviously say, yeah, I'm going to be fair and impartial. But if the lead up to that is,
They wrote on Facebook saying, wow, this guy's guilty as can be, you know, and they admit to something. Well, then the judge is in a different situation. They've got this guy hung. If you can't get 12 people that can put aside all the social media, all the whatever publicity they've seen and whatever, then you're right. Then you change the venue. And that's something that both sides will probably bring up.
On May 2nd, 2022, Judge Randy Deering torpedoed the defense's motion for a new venue, ruling that George, the fourth child, would remain in Pike County. The ruling cleared a path for the trial that reporter Anjanette Levy says will be a heated one.
This is a really old courthouse. I think it's from the Civil War era. So the air conditioning is not great. So jury selection starting on July 5th. Could you get any hotter? I mean, could you pick any more uncomfortable time of the year in Ohio where it gets so muggy and gross and humid because of being in the Ohio River Valley? Could you pick a worse time to do this?
No matter the weather, it's on Judge Randy Deering to oversee this trial. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. Here's what we know about Judge Randy Deering. He went to undergrad and law school at Ohio State and started practicing law back in 1974. Judge Deering took office in 2005 and was re-elected in 2010 and most recently in 2016.
Interestingly enough, in May of 2015, Judge Deering swore in Charles Reeder as the 41st Pike County Sheriff. And Charles Reeder is obviously very involved in this story. We called the county clerk's office who informed us that at 70 years old, Judge Deering is now too old to officially serve as a judge, meaning that he can't run again. His time as judge will end in January or February of 2023.
That being said, because the Wagner cases will likely be ongoing at that time, the Supreme Court could appoint him as a retired judge over the case or cases so that he could finish them out. The trial promises to be a long one. There are some 350 witnesses. Imagine the problem that many witnesses would have created if the venue were forced to move.
George IV's attorney has pressed Judge Deering to release and seal a pretrial copy of transcripts of all witnesses who testified before the grand jury in 2018. The prosecution have countered that the Ohio State Supreme Court already ruled that defense is not entitled to that information. The list of witnesses is extensive, but Anne Flanagan points out that there are four suspects and eight victims. In a tangled case like this, with so many suspects, witnesses add up.
You have eight individuals killed, and I don't know how many coroners participated in the autopsies. I don't know if it was all one or if it was a number, but just right there, just think you have a multiplied factor because all of those homicides are part of each one of these defendants' cases.
And then you have all of the analysts. You have a blood witnesses. You've got the shoe print witnesses. You have custodians. Who's the custodian of the Walmart shoe department? I mean, and the receipt. How did they get the bookkeeping records of the receipt?
and the video authentication from Walmart. So theoretically, you could have like three witnesses from Walmart just to say, yes, this is the receipt. We keep it in the ordinary course of business. And somebody who does the same thing for video and somebody that handles the shoe department and can say, yes, we keep athletic work shoes or whatever.
In a May hearing, as George IV's defense team continued to hurl motions at the bench, George Wagner, bearded and balding, began to look defeated.
It's worth noting that the defendants do not appear in court in shackles. This is done so they can avoid the appearance of guilt. Billy and George, you know, all of them actually, anytime they've appeared in court, Pike County bought a stun vest. It's like this thing that they wear under their clothes so that if they get out of line or try to escape or they grab a pen and try to stab somebody or whatever, literally the deputies can push a button and it sends, I think, 80,000 volts into their bodies.
We have to remember that all this legal wrangling is particularly intense because George Wagner is facing the death penalty. As a reminder, Jake Wagner's plea deal takes the death sentence off the table for him and his family members, but only if he testifies to the satisfaction of the prosecution. The jury must carefully consider the possibility that just because George is Jake's brother and Angela and Billy's son, it does not necessarily mean he pulled the trigger that night in April 2016.
And if he didn't actually shoot anyone, should he face lethal injection? Here's George Wagner's defense team. What is really important here is that the court talks about a basic premise of our criminal justice system is as follows. Our law punishes people for what they do and not who they are. And why is it important in this case?
The reason it's important in this case is that, as the court is aware, the state is arguing that George is part of a conspiracy and a criminal enterprise and participated in the aggravated murders and the other 22 counts. And a large part of the state's argument, we anticipate, is he's a Wagner, and this is how the Wagners operate.
Now there certainly is a conspiracy charge, we understand that. And there's specific law with respect to conspiracy, but it doesn't necessarily apply to everything. So we think it's important that the court keep this basic premise of our justice system in mind and at the appropriate time instruct the jury concerning that. In the event of a guilty verdict for George Wagner, there's the possibility that the death penalty will still be on the table.
Here's Anne Flanagan and Judge Dinkerlacher to break down what happens next. I got to be careful with what I say because you're supposed to treat the guy who breaks a window and goes in a drugstore the same as you do a death penalty person. But the practicality of it is that you know you're dealing with the most serious of cases. You know you have to do everything you can to try to get it right because there's a life on the line.
And at least for some of us, life is very, very, very, very important.
At this point, we would say there would be two phases. And so the first phase is the liability or trying to determine, did the state in fact prove that he was a complicitor in these homicides as to George IV? And then the second phase would be a weighing process for the jury. It's called a mitigation hearing. It is unique in that this is the one time where you have jurors essentially participate in the sentencing decisions.
Typically for all other crimes, the judge will make the decision on sentencing within the guidelines of our legislature. However, in a capital case, the jury will be part of a weighing process. They are still not sentencing, but they are going to give a recommendation to the judge. Should he have an opportunity at parole? Should he have the highest number of years before that opportunity at parole comes up?
Should he have no chance at parole, just a life sentence? Or should he, in fact, be exposed to execution, the death penalty?
Ultimately, the jury can be swapped for a three-judge panel. The defendant can elect to have a three-judge panel. Then the three-judge panel tries the case, okay? They render a verdict as to whether or not the person is guilty or not. And then they sentence, okay, which, you know, can be the death penalty, can be life without parole, life after 20 or 30, whatever. The judges can do that, but most times it's a jury trial. So the trial is conducted in front of the jury because obviously you don't get to the death penalty phase until you...
make a determination if the guy's guilty of what he's charged with. And for example, I mean, he's charged with aggravated murder with what they call death specs. There are further hearings to be had before the defendant's fate is sealed. Eventually, the case may head to the highest court in the state of Ohio. But if the jury does go ahead and signs off and makes a recommendation that they believe the death penalty is appropriate, then it goes to the judge to make a decision. The judge has another hearing with the defendant participating.
counsel participating, you know, a lot of different things go into it. Then the judge makes a decision. If the judge says the death penalty is warranted in the case, then the judge signs off on that. The next step then is to go to the Ohio Supreme Court, and then the Ohio Supreme Court reviews the whole record, reviews everything they can review about the case. Whatever defense counsel brings up is something that they believe should be a reason to throw out the death penalty or throw out the conviction or throw out the whole case.
At every phase, the onus is always on the honorable person on the bench to rule as fairly as possible. I think you truly, truly, truly have to want to be fair and treat everybody fairly. You truly have to seek justice. Everybody's got a different definition of justice. I understand that. But for me, you want to be able to walk off that bench and say to yourself, "I did the best I could. I tried to be fair to everybody.
When I think about a really good judge, I think about somebody who is willing to put in the time to read everything there is to read. Maybe most importantly, to listen to everything that's being presented.
And I think probably paramount is to keep an open mind until the end of the case. Now, that's a hard thing to do because everybody brings to the bench their own personal experiences. But it is just critically important that you don't come in there with your mind made up. You do a disservice to your oath if you do that. But an excellent judge needs a jury capable of looking at the case squarely.
I think it's real important, and I've told over the years a number of attorneys that we're not here trying to get 12 people that are going to go for you. And we're not here for the other side getting 12 people. You guys are supposed to be working to get a fair and impartial jury. That's your job. Now, that's easy for me to say. For the prosecution, for example, all it takes is one person. They've got one person that, you know, is...
well, I really don't like the death penalty. I don't think it's a good thing. I really don't want to do it. I mean, that sounds like kind of a weak juror for the prosecution. I think you'd agree. Okay. So they maybe have to use a peremptory to get rid of that person. Let's stop here for another break.
Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Stories about regaining a sense of safety, a handle on reality after your entire world is flipped upside down.
From unbelievable romantic betrayals... The love that was so real for me was always just a game for him. To betrayals in your own family... When I think about my dad, oh, well, he is a sociopath. Financial betrayal...
This is not even the part where he steals millions of dollars. And life or death deceptions. She's practicing how she's going to cry when the police calls her after they kill me. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm John Walzak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona. And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI. Come on.
In 2001, police say I killed my family. First mom, then the kids. And rigged my house to explode. In a quiet suburb. This is the Beverly Hills of the Valley. Before escaping into the wilderness. There was sleet and hail and snow coming down. They found my wife's SUV. Right on the reservation boundary. And my dog flew. All I could think of is him and the sniper me out of some tree.
But not me. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. For two years. They won't tell you anything. I've traveled the nation. I'm going down in the cave. Tracking down clues. They were thinking that I picked him up and took him somewhere. If you keep asking me this, I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Searching for Robert Fisher. One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.
Do you recognize my voice? Join an exploding house, the hunt, family annihilation today and a disappearing act. Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I spent almost a decade researching right wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters.
But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. I've collected the stories of hundreds of aspiring little Hitlers of the suburbs, from the Nazi cop who tried to join ISIS, to the National Guardsman plotting to assassinate the Supreme Court, to the Satanist soldier who tried to get his own unit blown up in Turkey. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. And you can laugh. Honestly, I think you have to.
Seeing these guys for what they are doesn't mean they're not a threat. It's a survival strategy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America. Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hi, I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm a neuroscientist at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring the three-pound universe in our heads. We're looking at a whole new series of episodes this season to understand why and how our lives look the way they do. Why does your memory drift so much? Why is it so hard to keep a secret? When should you not trust your intuition?
Why do brains so easily fall for magic tricks? And why do they love conspiracy theories? I'm hitting these questions and hundreds more because the more we know about what's running under the hood, the better we can steer our lives.
Join me weekly to explore the relationship between your brain and your life by digging into unexpected questions. Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. As Judge Hendon points out, the whole legal procedure, while carefully architected to bring justice and closure to families, can do nothing to restore what's been lost.
Reflecting on her time as prosecutor, Anne Flanagan comments on the distinct feeling of loss in the courtroom.
That's one of the things I don't miss, and I didn't know how much I didn't miss until I started reviewing all of this. And I thought, oh my gosh, it just brings back so much and how hard the attorneys for both sides are working to bring fair justice to their sides. But because they're good advocates and they do care, I think it's a great way to bring justice to both sides.
I think it's just a tremendously intense experience. And one can only imagine how it comes across to the families who are sitting there on the personal side of it, caring about the loss of someone, not really interested in the technology behind shoe prints or blood spatter or this or that. They just are feeling that someone they loved is gone. More on that next time.
If you're enjoying The Piked Massacre, listen to our other hit series, Crazy in Love. New episodes air every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts. For more information and case photos, follow us on Instagram at kt underscore studios. The Piked Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lidecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Graves, Alan Weider, and me, Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design by Jeff Twa. Music by Jared Astin.
The Pikedon Massacre is a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, the host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday.
Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm John Walzak, host of the new podcast, Missing in Arizona. And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI. Oh my God.
In 2001, police say I killed my family and rigged my house to explode before escaping into the wilderness. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. Join me. I'm going down in the cave. As I track down clues. I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Hunting. One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world. Robert Fisher. Do you recognize my voice? Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.
Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America.
Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, and welcome to Haunting, Purgatory's premiere podcast. I'm your host, Teresa. We'll be bringing you different ghost stories each week, straight from the person who experienced it firsthand. Some will be unsettling, some unnerving, some even downright terrifying. But all of them will be totally true.
Listen to Haunting on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
