Those Left Behind
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Ooh, but not so much of that. Sign up at WorkMoney. Get money-saving tips. Skip the rent. Get more rich. Sign up at WorkMoney.org slash MoreRichContest for your chance to win $50,000. My world stopped that day. I was stuck in this cycle of, oh my gosh, what's going to happen next? What's going to happen next? Or could this happen to me? The underlying psychological phenomenon is that they are doing to themselves what the killer didn't do to them.

Why am I here but not them? Why wasn't I one that they took? There's so much that goes with surviving something like this. This is The Idaho Massacre, a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. Season 2, Episode 11, Those Left Behind. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Leidiger and Gabriel Castillo.

At the center of the horrific murders that took place on November 13, 2022, are, of course, the victims. And it's of the utmost importance, not just from a reporting standpoint, but from a human perspective, to keep their memories alive. If you knew Ethan, he was never angry about anything. He would never get upset. Everybody loved him, and I feel so lucky to have shared so many great memories with him.

Xana was the funniest person I knew and made me laugh every time I spent time with her. She was my baby sister, but she was so much wiser and experienced so much more in life than I ever have. Maddie was the best at spreading love to all those that were close to her. Every time I talked to her on the phone, she would end the conversation with, I love you. Kaylee was our middle child out of five.

She was always competitive. She was smack dab middle, so there was never a day that she didn't want to race her brother because she was determined that girls were faster than boys. Not only were their families devastated, but so too were their friends and the community at large. For those left behind, the healing may have only begun, and it may, for some, last a lifetime.

To try and get some understanding of the impact left in the wake of the murders, Stephanie and I reached out to a psychiatrist specializing in survivor's guilt, as well as speaking with Whitney Galloway, a brave young woman who has been through and is still healing from survivor's guilt. Stephanie and I had the honor of meeting Whitney while working on a documentary on the Pike County murders, which is covered in detail in our other podcast, The Piketon Massacre. Here's Whitney, then Stephanie.

Well, for me, I mean, it did take me a long time to process everything, get through it. Yeah, I was 18 at the time. So at 18, you don't really expect to have to deal with the emotions, the after effects, the really the, I mean, it's basically PTSD of what you get from something like that to happen. You

You and I met with Courtney a couple years ago now. Courtney and I, I think, were in town for Wagner's trial and had been reaching out to you. And I can still picture you sitting on that wooden swing, just sort of like, who are these two people coming up to my house right now? Is this safe?

For anyone who's not familiar with the Pike County murders and the massacre in Pike County, they lost their lives really tragically at the hands of another family of four. Jake Wagner, who is the youngest son of this foursome, was a mother, father, and two sons. He's the youngest. Whitney knew and

had a lot of contacts with in the month, if not longer, leading up to the murders. And her very best friend, Hannah Gilley, had lost her life that night really tragically. And you knew the whole family, you knew all of the victims, but that really fishtails into why we're talking right now. Massacres are not common, thank God.

But then there's Idaho, where also four young adults lost their lives. Two of the surviving victims were in the home at the time of the murders and families have been ripped apart and devastated. So we thought it was like a nice way to take a breath and talk to you a little bit about that impact and what that's like and what your journey has been like. I mean, still to this day, it's been eight years.

since they were taken from us. And I still struggle. I don't want to say you can't get over it because I feel like it's not something you can get over, but you learn to live with it.

Here's Dr. Carol Lieberman, a board-certified psychiatrist known as America's Psychiatrist, as well as the terrorist therapist. This comes into play because Dr. Carol has dedicated much of her career in the last 23 years, helping people cope with the aftermath of 9-11. I began our conversation simply asking for the definition of the term, survivor's guilt.

Survivors guilt is generally used to mean someone who was in a very traumatic situation and who survived it when other people didn't and who is left with a feeling of

like they didn't deserve to survive, they should have done more to save the other people, they feel that they should have done more or something that they did do made it worse for the people, you know, killed the other people, helped to kill the other people. They're punishing themselves.

They feel they deserve to be punished because they survived this horrible thing. And so they are basically continuing the trauma by continuing to punish themselves. They didn't get killed or injured, perhaps, but they deserve to. And therefore, I'm going to ruin my life. And that's not conscious. You know, they don't say that to themselves necessarily consciously.

But they become stuck in the trauma. They become, because they feel they should have died, they don't want to or can't proceed with their life. It's like they did die. And so...

It can be totally, totally debilitating. It's not the same thing as PTSD, although it's kind of mentioned in the DSM, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, as being sort of related to PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder. So it can show with symptoms of anxiety, depression, PTSD, different kinds of psychological symptoms, but where the

the underlying psychological phenomenon is that they are doing to themselves what the killer didn't do to them. - Here again, Whitney talking about the impact the April anniversary of the murders have on her. At the time of the recording, the anniversary was upcoming. - It's almost like your body holds that trauma.

from that day. Your body will hold it. Your body will always remember it. Even though, say, it's like 25 years down the road, it's like, this month, I'm getting a headache. I'm anxious more. I talked to a therapist. I've been in therapy for a year now because I didn't realize what I was doing because of the murders. But she explained it to me. She said, you know, your body holds in that trauma and it remembers trauma. And so where April was such...

a big month to me. It made sense. You know, I'm anxious more. I'm having nightmares. I wake up in the middle of the night. I feel like I won't remember the day till it's the day, but my body won't let me forget it. I guess that's really true. I think that would probably apply to any real loss. Suddenly it's the eight-year anniversary. I know that's in just a few days. It's been heavy on our hearts as well and all of them, all of the victims' families in Pike County in general. ♪

I asked Dr. Carroll if it's common for people to experience exacerbated symptoms around anniversaries.

Yes, that can happen. You know, anniversary reactions are really interesting. A lot of times people aren't aware that such and such a date is coming up. But then when the date happens, all of a sudden, you know, either they're feeling things in their body, they can't get out of bed or something like that, you know, because they're so depressed, or they do something that is totally out of character because...

Part of their mind does realize that it is this anniversary. You know, a good example, of course, is 9-11. Every year when the anniversary happens, it triggers memories. And even if, again, even if the people aren't necessarily thinking right before, oh, well, September 11th, when the day comes, I mean, that's a trigger, of course. But even things like planes flying overhead, making a loud noise, or

or what they were eating. For example, people who were eating a certain thing for breakfast that day and then whenever they have that again, it reminds them of that morning when they were eating it and then 9/11 happened or they don't have it again on purpose. Stephanie and Whitney continue their conversation about grief and its cyclical nature. Here again, Stephanie followed by Whitney.

It creeps up on you, right? Suddenly you think you have it all tucked away. And then that's, I guess, the thing about grief. It's a hole. It's a hole that maybe doesn't have to be filled. Yeah. And that doesn't ever get filled, but you find a way to work around it, I guess. Yeah. For me, like I went so many years without any help, without talking to anybody, like no one could really relate to what, I mean, besides the family, obviously, but you don't want to go and

and keep bringing it up to them because that's such, it's a traumatic thing. So trying to find a friend or a friend that would even remotely understand what it was like is hard, especially at such a young age. It just, it was hard.

But therapy has helped me tremendously. I know some people just don't believe in it, right? They don't know. Some people like are resistant to therapy and we're not condoning it or prescribing it one way or the other. I do believe in it. We don't want to burden people with your grief. You don't want to seem weak by, you know, being on a loop and feeling like you just have lost that you can't get out of the way. Like it consumes your whole life. I got to the point where I,

It felt like my whole, this was my whole life. I felt like my, my world stopped that day. And I was just stuck in this cycle of, oh my gosh, what's going to happen next? What's going to happen next? Or could this happen to me? Is this going to happen to me? Who can I trust? Who can I not trust? Are my doors locked? Are my windows locked? Am I safe?

I still have that. I'm learning to start to trust people. It takes a long time, a very long time. For me, at least, it took a long time. I feel like if I had somebody else that I could relate to with what was going on, it would probably help me a lot more and a lot sooner. And I think you're not alone in that. I think that kind of says two things. One, granted, both of these cases, both in Idaho and in Pike County, are serious.

extreme, right? We have heard like we heard a statistic that the likelihood of you being in a massacre of this level or losing someone you love in a manner like this is as common as being killed by a vending machine falling on you. It's that rare, right? So on the one hand, there's comfort in that these are extreme cases, but

for someone like you or for any of the students in Idaho or family members, you know, you realize like the flame was really close and it's hard to re-acclimate to the world that you want to be safe when you realize, huh, the boogeyman was really close or was somebody that I knew. Yeah. Or they say like, you know, monsters are not real, but

They actually, you know, they are. They really are. For me, when I talk about it now, I don't feel as ashamed. Like, I don't feel like I'm being a burden to anybody to talk about it because it did happen to me and I did have to work through it. And...

I can talk about it and I'm allowed to talk about it. It was such a significant thing in my life and it was such a traumatic thing in my life that I'm allowed to feel a certain way. I'm allowed to be sad one day. I'm allowed to celebrate their life one day.

No one can tell you you're being too much over something like that. No one can tell you how to feel about it. No one can tell you, oh, you've been sad long enough. We're done.

I'm at the point now where instead of grieving, I mean, I'm still grieving, but I want to remember the good things. I want to remember, you know, I do have these amazing people in my life. I do have pictures to look back on and I'm allowed to watch videos and laugh about and things that we, we joked around about. I'm allowed to,

say I miss her or yeah, it's a lot to some people, but the right people, it won't be a lot to talk about. And I think that makes you such an amazing source. You know, I know one thing for sure that you do not heal alone. Nobody heals alone. And I

And you don't have to be connected to a massacre to understand loss and to have trauma. It comes in so many shapes and sizes and in so many different ways. And sometimes people feel like my pain wouldn't nearly be as big as their pain. You even thought that for a second. Well, I'm not the family, so I shouldn't be able to feel this much pain, which is, you know, grief and love are so wildly connected and they're so incredibly closely tied. And

if you stuff that stuff down, it can really turn on you. It turns on your body. It turns on your decision-making. We start making decisions from a place of loss as opposed to a place of gain. Loss is loss. You might have just a bigger well to pull from, but I'm sure many people listening are sad. They don't have that best friend like you had in Hannah. Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in a moment.

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Ooh, but not so much of that. Sign up at Work Money. Get money-saving tips. Skip the rent. Get more rich. Sign up at workmoney.org slash morerichcontest for your chance to win $50,000. I asked Dr. Carroll about Whitney's complicated feelings of being unable to feel her own grief because she felt it was so much worse for the victims and their families.

A part of survivor's guilt is not feeling that you deserve any treatment, therapy, or any sympathy for what you did experience as part of the trauma. And so feeling like experiencing grief or experiencing some of the things that perhaps the families or the people who were killed and so on feel, it feels self-indulgent to

to experience grief and to, and even to, you know, to when people would say, oh, that must be so hard for you to lose your friend and blah, blah, blah. And of course, in her case, actually, you said she was friends with the people who did this. What makes Whitney's case particularly complicated is that she feels guilty that she didn't stop it because she knew the people who did it.

She has said, "Why didn't I stop it?" Of course, no way to imagine this would have happened, but yes, you're exactly right.

You know, so it's extra, extra guilt. It's not just that she survived, you know, but she blames herself. It's just self-blame. I mean, this kind of thing could cause not only things like depression, anxiety and all of that, but actual physical, you know, I hate to say it, but I mean, like things like cancer, things like other kinds of diseases or disorders. If you keep

showering yourself with all of this guilt and blame and you know, year upon year that is very, very unhealthy. It can cause all kinds of systems in your body to go bonkers. As a reminder, we met Whitney while working on the Pike County documentary. Do you feel like this by talking even just through the process of being in the documentary and sort of talking it out, did that shift things a little bit for you? Well,

I mean, I was nervous at first to do the documentary, but in a way, it was kind of healing. For people to see, not only did it affect, yes, it affected their family, and I could not imagine what it would be for a family member. But as a close friend, there's just, it was healing for me because people got to see it from outside.

my point of view. People got to see how not only did the Wagners did what they did to the Rodens and the Gillies, but it was so many more people than what they probably realize.

I mean, like I said in the documentary, they changed my life that day. Even today, I'm still not going to be the same, which who would expect someone to be the same, right? After something like that. But no, it was actually kind of healing to be able to voice what they did to not only the family, but to everybody else.

I think that's the whole point of these things, right? Even this podcast. It's like sometimes people assume, oh, I just like to unpack a grisly event. And truly, that's not the case. I think it's two part. One, to prevent. If you don't know that these types of things happen in the world, it's really hard to avoid them or identify red flags and things that are really easy to do in retrospect.

in somebody else's retrospect even. So it's like a safety thing. And then also to keep the victims alive. In the case of Idaho, not dissimilarly to Pike County, that trial still lies ahead. The Idaho trial looks like it probably will be set for next year.

that's a long time for the general public to lose sight of the lives and the humans that were lost. And it's important that we keep them alive because people should be mad as hell. Yeah, be mad. Voice it. Be mad. Don't sit and think that they won. No one's won yet. No one has won a single thing until

that day. And that's another thing is that feeling if and when justice comes is a feeling no one will ever understand that has that they've not had to be through. You might cry, you might scream. And if you feel you need to do that, do it.

In the Piketon, Ohio case, three of the four accused murderers have been found or pled guilty. One member's trial is still upcoming. When we got the partial justice that we have, I mean, I was pregnant at the time, but if I could have been out in my yard jumping around and popping bottles, you know, I would have done it. But yeah, I mean, there's just so many emotions that come with that part too. You have all this grief.

And then this happens and it's like, you're, you just can't contain it. It made me feel like we accomplished something. It wasn't, no, it doesn't bring them back. That was one hard feeling I had. It doesn't bring them back, but they got the justice they deserved.

What would you say, would you have any words of advice to anyone who's gone through this level of trauma or some level of trauma, whether that's they're a victim of a violent crime or someone they love very deeply is the victim of a violent crime? Or in your case, too, you had it in both sides because you knew the victim was

and the perpetrator. Well, that's also equally scary. You know, you shared space with someone, you were texting with someone in the days after the murders who was like, I have no idea. Hopefully they find the killer. Meanwhile, you're the killer by your own admission. Do you have any advice for anyone who's just kind of stuck in their head and doesn't have anyone to speak to about their feelings? How do you process?

I mean, you're not alone. When this happened with Hannah and the rodents, I felt alone and it took me a while to realize I wasn't alone. Always reach out. Reach out to anybody that you trust, anyone that you're comfortable with.

Take your time. It's all about your time. Like, it's all about time. Do not think you're alone. You can always reach out. Even if it's me, you know? Anyone could ever reach out. Because I've been in it, I don't care if it would be 3 in the morning, like...

please call, you know? I needed that person. And so instead of moping around thinking, oh, I really wish I had somebody, I want to be that person for somebody. So there's anything. That's all I can really think to say is just, you're not alone. ♪

You've now enrolled in school to become a social worker and a victim's advocate. And we all like to believe that in some part it is because you shared so much on the case that people really were touched in a way that can't quite be described, myself included. And I think we all get to heal with you. And I think now you know that's obviously a calling for you.

If people want to connect with you, you can send us any emails or any information via the KT Studios website and we'll make sure that it gets to you. And obviously now that you've gone to school, you're like legitimately becoming the exact thing that you needed. It's pretty magical stuff and I can't help but think that that's Hannah Gilley at play as your guiding light a little bit.

Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in a moment. Arizona football fans, picture this. You bet on your favorite player to score the first touchdown, and he throws an awesome block so his teammate can score instead. If this happens, BetMGM wants to give you another chance at the end zone with BetMGM's Second Chance Promotion. You'll get your stake back if your first touchdown scorer scores second instead. That's right. Bet on any pro football player to score the first touchdown of the game.

If you're right, you win. If your player scores second, you get your stake back in cash. Everyone knows the most exciting part of football is the score. With BetMGM's Second Chance Promotion, you have a chance to keep the fun going after the first player crosses the goal line.

Place a first touchdown score. Wager today. BetMGM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly. See BetMGM.com for terms. 21 plus only. Arizona only. Existing customer offer. Subject to eligibility requirements. Rewards vary. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-NEXT-STEP.

Did you know Tide has been upgraded to provide an even better clean in cold water? Tide is specifically designed to fight any stain you throw at it, even in cold. Butter? Yep. Chocolate ice cream? Sure thing. Barbecue sauce? Tide's got you covered. You don't need to use warm water. Additionally, Tide Pods let you confidently fight tough stains with new Coldzyme technology. Just remember...

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Ooh, but not so much of that. Sign up at Work Money. Get money-saving tips. Skip the rent. Get more rich. Sign up at workmoney.org slash morerichcontest for your chance to win $50,000. Here again, Stephanie. You were dead on about survivor's guilt, and that's something that we're kind of unpacking a little bit in this. There were two surviving roommates at the time of the Idaho massacre, and...

It's really a big topic that gets me a bit fired up because I've read a lot of chatter online and there's been a lot on TikTok and in various online silly sources that kind of give the roommates a lot of slack. They're like, whoa, why didn't the roommates call 911? And why did it take nine hours to finally get authorities there? And while I understand that theoretically,

It really lacked the level of empathy because until you know what happened, and really nobody does at this point, that night, one of the roommates allegedly saw the accused Brian Koberger going down the hallway and she identified him to have bushy eyebrows.

At that moment, he would have been covered in complete blood and likely would have just murdered four people. You don't expect there to be a killer in the hallway, right? You don't think, oh, this must be a mass murderer. We don't know. We don't know what it's like to be in that situation. And we certainly shouldn't throw stones at two people who have

really survived something so horrible and likely are really suffering. This is an assumption, I don't know them, but survivor's guilt is what comes to mind.

You don't know how fast that passing by was. In our heads, it's slow-mo. Oh, here's this guy walking by. She's looking. In your head, when you don't know the actual setup, you weren't there. In my head, it's like a slow-motion picture, like a movie. But how fast did they go by each other? You know...

How dark was it in the hallway? How do you know what was on them? I mean, yeah, they're probably drenched in blood, but that's not something you see on a regular basis. So you're not going to look for that. You're not going to notice it, probably. Especially if it was dark. Being college students, who knows who would be coming in and out? There's so many different scenarios in that. Shock does crazy things to you. And now, knowing what they know, I couldn't imagine being that person who...

Now knowing and feeling like you didn't do something. Even though you didn't know what was going on, it's not your fault. It's not anyone's fault besides the person who did it.

So don't feel that guilt. That is that survivor's guilt is I could have done something. I should have done something and I didn't, but I also didn't know what was going on. And how could you? How could you? Like the brain is not committed to understanding something so violent. It's so outside our realm that that's not what you probably connect that thought very easily. And you're at home. You think you're safe. You think you're safe. Yeah, that's very true.

And for people to please show some empathy, some empathy that

Whoever has survived this, you know, that's a long journey ahead. And you have this guilt that, you know, why them, not me? Or how does my life go on? It's such a mind screw. Or they should be here. Why am I here but not them? Why wasn't I one that they took? You know, there's so much that goes with surviving something like this. There's a lot.

and our hearts go out to them as well. And we would kind of encourage people to do so as well, if anything, they just need healing thoughts their way. Yeah, anything that you would say for any of the college students or yeah, anybody who may be brushed paths. We interviewed very recently one of the accused students because he was a teacher's assistant and she was in his class in the days leading up to the murders and the days after.

If what he's been accused of is true, and again, he's claiming innocence, if what is being said is accurate, then he went to class the next day and was still participating. And that a little bit makes me think of Jake Wagner, you know? Kind of hits home right now. Hits home. Yeah. And I was curious if you had something because

Again, the accused now convicted Jake Wagner in the Pike County murders. You spoke with him and connected with him right after the murders. I did. I told him if he needed anything. And he told me, you know, I just don't know how I'm going to go on. I don't know how I'm going to tell my daughter that, you know, her mom is no longer here. After finding out about Jake and then talking to him, it's kind of like a, oh, my goodness, you know, like, wow, you played it so well.

Well, you played everybody. Not everyone is like that. Not everyone would be able to do that. So someone that's able to come in and act like nothing is wrong or to know what they did and act like nothing is wrong, they are sick and twisted. Is there anything that you would like to say to the victim's families or friends? I mean, I'm sorry. You know, it's not easy to go through.

And you guys are not alone. Sorry, a little emotional, but you're not alone. And don't ever feel like you are. And I know there's going to be days that it's so hard.

It's so hard to get up and it's so hard to go on and it's going to be so hard to just live. I get it. And I get that there are days that you want to just go to where this person is and destroy their life. But there is some good in the system that

I hope and I pray that you guys get the justice you guys need and deserve. Even though it doesn't bring them back, that justice is good and it feels good. And my biggest thing is you're just not alone because for the longest time I felt alone and it took me a long time to realize I wasn't. So even though it's been eight years that day, it's still so fresh.

to me. So I just, I know how you guys feel. I've been there, still working on it to get better. Even though it doesn't seem like it, it seems like, gosh, this is never gonna, I'll never be the same. You might not, and that is okay, but you will, you will find

a whole new you from this. Can you tell me one quick story about Hannah Gilley? Just in her honor, is there anything that immediately comes to mind? There's a song, there's a country song that says her long blonde hair and that she loved that song because it was long blonde hair. So now every time I hear that, I think of her. And sometimes I'll

I'll be listening to like a station that doesn't play country music. But then that song comes on. I'm like, all right, Anna. I'm like, I miss you too. I love to see you smile. And I'm so stinking proud of you. You are a real inspiration. You really are. And I'm so excited to see what comes next for you. So here's to like, you know, passing the baton on and helping others. There's nobody better than you to do it.

And our hearts of prayers are with all of the victims of the Idaho massacre and of course in Pike County as well. And we send you all of our love.

And then some. Thank you for taking the time. Sorry to have you crying in your car right now, but... Listen, I just know. I know how it feels. It just makes me a little emotional. Because I don't want anybody to feel that way. To feel like, gosh, this is it. Because I've been there. And it's not fun. It's not a fun feeling. It's not a... You guys are not alone. Trust me. You guys are not alone.

And you will smile again at some point. Yes, you will get your spark back is what I like to say. I'm starting to get my spark back. More on that next time. For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at KT underscore studios. The Idaho Massacre is produced by Stephanie Leidecker, Gabriel Castillo, and me, Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design by Jeff Twaugh.

Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masker is a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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