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Things like how to sleep better, how to have more meaningful relationships, and how to enjoy cooking more. We're releasing new courses all the time, where you can learn to be a better functioning human without the time commitment. Find our collection of courses by searching Try This wherever you listen to podcasts. Since Moscow police began investigating the brutal murders of four University of Idaho students at an off-campus home on November 13, they have claimed it was a targeted attack.
The Latah County prosecutor doubled down on those claims, saying investigators believe one of the victims was the intended target. This is The Idaho Massacre, a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. Episode 8, The Circus of Murder. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Lidecker, Jeff Shane, and Connor Powell.
As the mystery of the brutal murders of Kaylee Gonsalves, Madison Mogan, Zanna Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin unfolded, the national spotlight on the case grew brighter. When Brian Kohlberger was arrested at his parents' home on December 30th, that public spotlight intensified. The newspaper headlines and breaking news alerts for the criminologist-turned-killer practically wrote themselves.
Reporters, TV anchors, crime writers and legal analysts poured over the probable cause affidavit laying out the case against Koberger as they flocked to Pennsylvania and then Idaho to cover his extradition hearing and first court appearance in Moscow.
The worldwide appetite for information about the investigation seemed impossible to satisfy. But before Coburger even arrived in Idaho, Ladda County Judge Megan Marshall issued a non-dissemination order. The move barred attorneys, law enforcement officials, and anyone associated with the investigation from talking about the case. Judge Marshall defended the sweeping decree, saying the gag order was needed to protect Brian Coburger's right to a fair trial.
Two weeks later, Judge Marshall expanded the gag order to include the families and lawyers for the victims from speaking publicly. Journalists were furious, and more than 20 media organizations challenged the restrictions. So too did the lawyer for Kaylee Goncalves' family. Attorney Shannon Gray argued the gag order violated the family's right to free speech and silenced the victim's family's voice.
While those closest to the investigation were barred from talking about the case, public demand for information only intensified. Curious spectators and wannabe detectives on social media became obsessed with the case and Brian Koburger.
Tours past the home on King Road in Moscow became a regular occurrence. Chat forums on websites like Reddit exploded, and its online community both fervently followed the investigation and at times inserted itself into the story, sifting through the facts, speculation, and rumors of the investigation. While the gag order prevented leaks and has kept the pretrial hearings orderly, a circus has developed outside of the courtroom on social media and chat forums like Reddit.
From a distance, the circus seems harmless. But for many involved in trying the case, the fear is the circus could seriously impact the prosecution and trial of Brian Koburger. I was actually late to finding out the story. I think it was on Thanksgiving. My cousins were actually all talking about it at the Thanksgiving table. And I had no idea that this had honestly occurred. By day, this anonymous Redditor works in a New York City office.
I started looking into it just on my own through news articles. And then my cousin actually suggested I look on Reddit if I want to find the real deal. But by night, he's part of the hundreds of thousands of people who flock to sites like Reddit to sift through the latest information in the University of Idaho murders and debate the many aspects of the Brian Koburger investigation. And I actually had never used Reddit. I didn't even know how to use it, how to find
communities, posts, etc. And then she showed me one community and then I just got immediately sucked in and went so deep into every crevice of every theory at that time and now can't get enough. In the immediate days and weeks following the gruesome murders, the number of discussion groups on websites like Reddit and Facebook exploded.
With no-name suspects in the murder investigation, internet sleuths began poring over the few details of the case. As we previously discussed, some internet users incorrectly identified innocent people and charged them on social media with crimes they were innocent of.
Others tried to find links between the few people randomly caught up in the tragic events, such as the food truck employees and the DoorDash driver who delivered late-night snacks to Zanna Kernodle. Even the personal lives of the victims' families became fodder for the chat forums.
When Zanna Kernodle's mother, Kara, was detained on November 19th on drug-related charges, many on the internet tried to link her to the murders. Here's the anonymous Reddit user speaking with producer Jeff Shane. People are invested in the story and they want it to go longer. And like, I can't help but...
like read some of these comments and like see some justification in it. It's kind of like the saying where there's smoke, there's fire. And so everyone kind of latches onto everything. So whether it's that Uber driver that talked about the house to someone that combined with the fact that a couple of their parents were drug addicts or were arrested on drug charges or
that maybe some of them seemed on drugs and police videos when police had to show up for noise complaints. And so then you string all these individual things together, but then the fact that Brian was an ex-drug addict. So then I don't know, it's hard to make sense of all of that and everything kind of seems like a coincidence one way or the other that maybe Brian was, maybe it was drugs. Maybe Brian was involved because it was involving drugs.
That's one way to make the connection. Or maybe because it was drugs and serious drugs and their parents, that this is like a cartel and the kids had to pay for something the parents did. I mean, you could just go so crazy, but still kind of plausible. I'm curious what your answer is. Why this case? Why do you think you're so invested in it? You know, it's really interesting. Like,
I don't know. My first thought about why I was interested in it is because it feels like it could happen to anyone in a college town like that.
When you hear on Reddit people being like, "Oh, it was a huge party house. Oh, they didn't lock the door." Okay, but we didn't lock the door either. There were strangers in all the time, in and out. You didn't know who anyone could be if they were supposed to be there, if they weren't. And so I think part of it is around the fact that it could just happen to anyone.
When Brian Kohlberger, then an unknown 28-year-old criminology student, was arrested on December 30th, nearly seven weeks after the murders, the chat forums responded with a flurry of reactions.
when they made the arrest of Brian at the end of December, it was kind of like the Reddit community was kind of like pissed. Not whether or not at that time it was him or not, but that kind of their rogue investigation was over. And so the boards went quiet for a while right after New Year's. And then I think it was when the affidavit came out
when the list of items that they seized from his house came out. Then it reignited everyone, kind of lit a fire under everyone's ass to challenge some more concrete information about him. Here's Jeff and Stephanie.
Since Koberger's arrest, sites like Reddit and TikTok have pored over every detail of his life and his possible connection to the victims. And after Kaylee's father suggested that there may in fact have been a connection between Koberger and his daughter, many people online speculated that Koberger was literally stalking Kaylee and that maybe that was the motive for the murder.
Yeah, Steph, one poster speculated that Kaylee or Madison met Coburger at the Mad Greek, the restaurant they worked at downtown, saying, didn't Kaylee and Madison work at a vegan restaurant? Isn't he vegan? And for the record, we've said in the past, Mad Greek, where they worked, is a pizza shop, not a vegan restaurant. And the owner has publicly said there is no record of Coburger ever eating there. But that has not stopped the online rumor mill.
Others also continued the debate about Koberger's possible motive, saying that Ethan and Kaylee were just in the wrong place at the wrong time, and that maybe Madison and Zanna were the real targets since Koberger actually went to their bedroom. Again, so much of this is just speculation. But through all these posts, one thing is clear. Uninformed theories become facts, and misinformation spreads like wildfire.
Everyone becomes a lawyer. You don't have to prove that he's innocent. You just have to prove that he's not guilty. And so with that mentality, everyone is just looking for every single hole that they can anywhere, whether it's cell phone tower pings that put him in jail.
put him there 13 times, but can a cell phone tower ping from 25 miles away, which would still put him where he was at home. When the police put out the original request or the identification of the Hyundai, they said it was like 2010 or to a 2013 model. Then why all of a sudden did they figure out it was a 2015 model and it was actually Brian's and
How can an expert get this 2010 to 2013 classification wrong? Then there's another thing that they're poking holes in around the sheath and the touch DNA. It went to a lab in Idaho first, and nothing was found, apparently. And then it was transferred to a lab in Texas. That's where they found the...
- Touched DNA that matched Brian's. And whether or not that's just because it's a better lab or did police tamper with it during transit to frame Brian doing that?
I've never read that even the sheath got transferred. Is that officially true? So that's the thing with this whole Reddit thing is when you read 70 theories about something and you can find yourself believing every single one, you can't, I can't keep track of, honestly, what is real and what is not and what's confirmed or not. It just all gets jumbled. And so then if you have a bunch of potentially true theories
And you can string them together in any coordinated effort. You can make yourself believe anything. It doesn't really matter what's true or not true. It just matters if you get the most upvotes, I guess. Yeah, yeah. Seriously, if you get the most upvotes or if it's the most sensational of all the facts that I read that day, I'll remember that fact. And then when I read a new fact, I'll compare it to that.
What do you think happened? He did it, but why? And what are the circumstances? I think he was obsessed with one of them. I don't know which one it was, whether it was
Maddie or Kaylee. I don't know. I think it is a lot simpler, which I think is also why people are trying to grasp for straws with all these other far-fetched theories. I think he was obsessed with one of them. I kind of believe maybe he met one of them at a restaurant they were working at and then stalked them. And then I don't know what the motive would be that night because then it gets weird with all the other people in the house.
The one thing I will say, I keep saying I think it's simple, but then I'm like, with
With all those people in the house, how could one person have done it? And then, like, was he maybe just a getaway car? But do you see how I'm spiraling from something very simple I just believed? And I can't stay on that very simple fact. Because then it does just get complicated. When everything first happened, everyone was obsessed with this DoorDash man. Then we got the victim. Then had Brian as the potential murderer.
And now everyone's gotten so far down so many rabbit holes. Why have we forgotten about this DoorDash man? And like, it hasn't been a topic of conversation when it feels like if he was there four minutes or seven minutes before everything started, that seems really like tight timing. Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in a moment. Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty.
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Both Koberger's attorneys and the prosecution support the gag order to protect Koberger's right to a fair trial. Six months after Koberger's arrest, the courts heard a motion in June by a coalition of media organizations to lift the gag order. The media coalition was fighting for the non-dissemination order to be altered in an effort to be able to report more of the facts of this case.
Wendy Olson, an attorney representing journalists, argued the gag order leads to rampant speculation and removing it would improve the coverage of the case, adding that there were other tools the legal system could use to protect a defendant's right to a fair trial. This includes moving the trial to a different city or asking potential jurors if they are willing to be impartial in the case. The judge dismissed those ideas as complicated, time-consuming, and costly.
Shannon Gray, an attorney for the Gonçalves family, also pushed the judge to lift the restrictions, saying he should be able to speak for Kaylee's family. The judge, however, seemed unlikely to ease the restrictions.
During the six-hour hearing, the media coalition also requested that cameras be allowed in the courtroom for the trial and argued that media coverage and publicity in and of itself is not prejudicial. However, Koberger's attorneys pushed back on the request, saying that past descriptions of Koberger published in print as, quote, cold and like a demon, and video clips of him blankly staring forward in court could prejudice potential jurors against Koberger.
Lata County Judge Joe Judge said he would think about the motions and would issue a written order in the days to come. Gag orders, while rare, are often used in high-profile cases like in the Half Bay Moon murder investigation and the Jodi Arias trial, or any case where the national spotlight burns bright.
The personal investment is interesting. I mean, I even see it on comment boards and stuff like that. People are so interested. We had this interest in it from the start before Brian Kohlberger's name was associated with the case, right? Because it was this killing interest.
Kirk Nurmi was Jodi Arias' defense lawyer. In 2013, she was tried and convicted of murdering her ex-boyfriend, Travis Alexander.
Her trial remains a cautionary tale of what can go wrong when a circus-like atmosphere is allowed to develop around a high-profile trial. Cheers erupted as soon as the word came. Look back now, we're at the 10-year anniversary of the Arias verdict. And, you know, you can see pictures of people crowding the sidewalk between the court buildings just to be there for the verdict.
History is full of high-profile murder investigations and trials that turn into public spectacles. The Jodi Arias trial surpassed almost all of them because it was one of the first significant social media events of the social media era. At first, the case received very little attention outside of Arizona, despite the sensational details.
Travis Alexander was found dead in his shower. He was shot in the face, stabbed 27 times, and his throat was slit from ear to ear. Friends of Travis Alexander found his mutilated body in his apartment after he failed to show up to work. It was a gruesome murder scene.
Among the evidence police recovered from the site was a digital camera with sexually explicit photos of Arias and Alexander from the day he was murdered. The final shot was of him bleeding profusely in the bathroom. Investigators also found a bloody palm print and DNA belonging to Jodi Arias. Later in the summer, Arias was arrested and charged with murder. The first interest in the case only appeared when Jodi Arias gave a few jailhouse interviews.
No jury is going to convict me. Why not? Because I'm innocent and you can mark my words on that one. No jury will convict me.
But even the initial interest following Jodi Arias' declaration of innocence on TV was minor compared to the current fascination with the University of Idaho murders. It's a little different than the Kohlberger situation. It wasn't quite in the headlines the way Kohlberger was. I mean, you think about Kohlberger, the murders, his name wasn't associated with it yet, of course. But those murders in Moscow, being in a college town when it was a whodunit, certainly caught the attention of the nation before any arrests were made.
But Cole Burgers was right from the start when these bodies were found. The manhunt was underway. The media got onto the manhunt and certainly was there all throughout his apprehension, his arrest. There's a huge media presence in this case from the get-go.
Because of this intense public interest, every minor police announcement or court appearance by Koberger is followed, reported on, and heavily scrutinized. This interest, however, could potentially impact Koberger's right to a fair trial.
And that makes it harder because no one likes to do their job under a microscope. It just becomes more of a production. It alters the court of public opinion right now.
This unique and intense interest by the media and the public has the potential to alter the jury pool. Ultimately, all these things are going to be in the headlines and they're ultimately going to be things that will be of consequence when Vore Dyer happens, when they ultimately begin to sit the jury.
So, for example, this motion requesting DNA, right? If I were to file a similar motion during areas, a prospective juror would not have known about that, more than likely. In this case, that might not be true. And so it's not the microscope so much as the publicity and how that will influence
infect a potential jury pool. Because ultimately, Jeff, think about it. Think about it. The rubber meets the road at trial, not in all these different circumstances, right? The rubber meets the road at trial. So when you have publicity engaging from the get-go, from before a suspect is identified, opinions for potential jurors begin to form. It's impossible to fully circumvent those preconceived notions. Is that what you're saying?
Right. It can be. And it also raises the prospect of covert jurors. Let's say somebody decides they know Colbert's being framed or they know he's guilty. They could get on that panel and dodge their way into a trial or if they wanted to be on the panel in hopes of seeking fame. And so that's why I think there's that difference is so huge, Jeff. But if you think about the dynamics of where the rubber meets the road, that jury
That publicity in Kohlberger that began from the discovery of the murders makes things qualitatively different. How did you as a public defender and how do you think Kohlberger's attorneys will combat that? I mean, certainly the jury is not supposed to take that into account, but how can they not?
Right. And there's no jury. So there's this massive public and the public that consume the information before they ever become jurors or potential jurors. Right. So, you know, there's a lot of things I think that are going on at this point in the case for his attorneys. And because the death penalty is a specter that looms over this case, really what his attorneys are doing now are tasked with not only investigating the case and challenging the
the evidence that the state is bringing forward in their effort to convict Mr. Kohlberger of murder, they are looking at investigating his life from conception to the day of his arrest so they can create a case for mitigation. And while this is going on, of course, they happen to make this decision
do all this, I guess, with respect to the presumption of guilt in the court of public opinion and trying to fight against that, trying to fight the evidence of the war. Because Kohlberger's case, like Jodi Arias's, involves the potential for the death penalty, Kohlberger's lawyers must work to both build a defense and also an argument against the death penalty if he is convicted. The intense public interest makes defending Kohlberger challenging.
Ultimately, they're going to be fighting this presumption of guilt, of course, and they're going to want to do everything they can to collect all the evidence. You know, we see that they're going after the DNA. They believe that DNA might be exculpatory, meaning favorable to their clients. So they're going to go after those things.
And they're going to go after other things like in terms of building a case for life. They're going to go after school records. They're going to go after everything in his past that might be helped shed some light on if, in fact, he did commit this case, why a jury should grant him life.
So there's really two prongs that are going on here. And it certainly made much more difficult with that media specter because anybody that could maybe be helpful to Mr. Kohlberger probably isn't too excited about coming forward because of that media specter being involved in the case.
Because, you know, a death penalty case is something that automatically goes up to the U.S. Supreme Court if a sentence of death is imposed. They are going to need to be very vigilant in the defense they provide, Mr. Kohlberger. And that is on two fronts, both for life and for confronting the evidence.
Presenting a defense in a case like this, in a death penalty case, is not a job for the timid. I mean, you have to go forward in the face of all this vitriol against your client and go forward and seek out that exculpatory information. So they're going to do that. We've seen that they are, you know, in terms of the preliminary hearing, they are seeking the surviving roommate's testimony.
By the time Jodi Arias went to trial, four years after murdering Travis Alexander, interest in the case had grown, but it exploded once the jury was selected and the trial began.
When Jodi Arias finally reached trial in 2013, it was a case that had been going on for years and the publicity was comparatively small. Before the trial, people tend to think about her trial as being a huge sensation, and it was, but it wasn't a huge sensation really until it began.
She had given those interviews with ABC, Inside Edition, et cetera. But the Kohlberger case was a media sensation from the start. So ultimately, when they get to the point that they are picking a jury, it's not going to be whether or not the jury has heard anything about the case or the potential jury members have heard anything about the case. It's whether they form judgments about the case that cannot be altered. There are people out there now who have
have heard the case have seen what they've seen and believe that he is guilty there might be people that believe that he is wrongly charged and what you need to do when you're searching out a jury is to find people that are not formally held in the belief and that are open to hearing the evidence because right now let's face it the evidence that the public knows is you know just a scant portion of what what is known to the police the authorities and
presumably the defense attorney. That's an interesting point that we think we know everything and we know just probably a fraction is what you're saying. Yeah, I mean, I would say generally speaking, the public probably knows about 10% of the actual evidence that's really going on in the case. Let's stop here for another break. Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty.
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When Kohlberger goes to trial, it is going to be a lot like the Arias trial when it became more popular in the public as I guess. I mean, if cameras are allowed in the courtroom, obviously we are going to see every bit of movement in the courtroom. We're going to...
see everything that surrounds the trial outside of the trial. You know, we're going to see packed courtrooms. We're going to see people standing outside. I think when Mr. Kohlberger did his case for each trial, you're going to see that kind of mentality, that kind of, it becomes a trial in the courtroom as best as you can, but it becomes a cultural event as well.
Jodi Arias was ultimately convicted of murder and sentenced to life in prison, but many legal analysts believe the circus surrounding the trial impacted the prosecution's ability to secure the death penalty. As someone who's been in it and is now removed from it, is that okay, you think, or is that an unhealthy interest that we as a society have?
Here again, Jeff and Stephanie.
Jodi Arias' trial started on December 10th, 2012. And in the scheme of things, that was the infancy stage of social media. Sure, Reddit and Twitter existed, but people didn't use them like they do today. Makes you wonder what the online community would have done to that case if it happened today. And of course, Jodi Arias was found guilty for murder, but there really was this pitchfork mentality back then, and it probably would have been much more intense today in 2023.
With so much at stake, including Koberger's right to a fair trial, the presiding judge during Koberger's hearings appeared unwilling to remove the gag order.
However, nearly seven months after Kohlberger was arrested and in response to the motion to ease the gag order, Judge Joe Judge did agree to loosen the non-dissemination order. Prosecution and defense attorneys can now speak on some matters related to the case. The families of the four victims are still allowed to speak publicly, but their lawyers remain barred from talking.
Reddit, along with several other social media websites, has tried to clean up some of the most outrageous group chats. The subreddit BrianKoburger'sGirls, which was known for discussions about Koburger's skincare routine and fawning posts about how hot the 28-year-old is, was banned for repeatedly violating Reddit's code of conduct.
Despite this small change, millions of true crime enthusiasts and would-be crime solvers continue to dissect and debate every aspect of the murders on social media and in public forums across the country. More on that next time. For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kt underscore studios.
The Idaho Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lidecker, Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Chris Bargo, Gabriel Castillo, and me, Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design by Jeff Twa. Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Massacre is a production of iHeartRadio and KT Studios. For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
I'm Deanna, who you may know as Body Movin'. My friend and I, John Green, were featured in the Netflix documentary, Don't F with Cats. On our new podcast, True Crimes with John and Deanna, we're turning our online investigative skills to some of the most unexplained, unsolved, and most ignored cases. ♪
Police say 33-year-old Breidigan was shot dead. Gunned down in front of his two-year-old daughter. Detectives confirmed that it was a targeted attack. It appears to be an execution-style assassination. This is very active, so we have to be careful. I've heard that there's a house that has some bodies in the basement. I knew. I just knew something was wrong. Maybe there's something more sinister at play than just one young girl going missing. If you know something, heard something, please...
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