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So much has been reported about the magnitude of violence that these four victims suffered.
Detectives have been provided with the results of those autopsies and determined that it was likely all four victims were asleep. In my experience, there is nothing bloodier than sharp force injury, particularly if you have multiple. This is The Idaho Massacre, a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. Season 2, Episode 1, Nightmare in Moscow.
I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Lidecker and Gabe Castillo. It's been one year, six months, four weeks, and one day since the senseless and brutal murders of Madison Mogan, Kaylee Gonsalves, Zanna Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin. More than a year and a half since the victims had their lives cut short and their family, friends, and community members had their lives irrevocably changed.
In that time, a suspect has been brought into custody and pretrial hearings have occurred, shedding light on how the trial may pan out. $3.6 million has been spent to date by the state of Idaho, and an alibi for the accused has been put on the court's record. Here's Stephanie.
This particular case is everyone's worst nightmare. It's kind of like the scariest movie. It checks every terrifying box. Just imagine four incredible young adults at the most optimistic time. They had great friendships. Just ahead were finals and all of their firsts, things like graduation and first jobs, first love.
And they did everything by the books. They went out in pairs. They were safe. They were inclusive and they had many friends in and out of their house. Yet even then, they were slaughtered one by one with a knife. So violent, so seemingly personal. This could have been an attack on any one of us.
And for the accused on the other side, Brian Kohlberger was a criminology PhD student. He was a scholar and also had his whole life ahead, upwardly mobile and by all accounts came from a really loving family. And can you imagine what it's like for his family? His father was a maintenance worker who went into debt putting his son through college. His mom worked at a Pennsylvania school assisting special needs students. And he was the baby of their family, the only son. He had two older sisters.
One of his sisters went on to be a mental health therapist, who, by the way, lost her job because of her brother's arrest. And his other sister was an actress. The only thing really notable about that is that she was in a horror film where the plot line is a group of students are stabbed to death by a masked killer. And on the one hand, he says he is innocent. Maybe he's just being targeted. Because if that's not the case, then this is the most sinister story ever told.
Last season, a general overview was known of what happened the night of the murders. In the preceding months, a more crystallized timeline of both the victims and the accused whereabouts has emerged. Saturday, November 12, 2022, was a celebratory day for many students at the University of Idaho. They were just seven days away from break, looking forward to sitting down with family for Thanksgiving. ♪
On November 12th at 8 o'clock p.m., Ethan Chapin and Zanna Kernodle went to a party at Chapin's fraternity, Sigma Chi. A brunette beauty, 20-year-old Zanna was a junior majoring in marketing. Here's her sister Jasmine speaking at the memorial service held on December 2nd, 2022. Zanna, you will not be forgotten. You have impacted so many lives and have given people so much love.
For her high school graduation, Zanna decorated her mortarboard with butterfly and flower cutouts and the words, For the lives that I will change. 20-year-old Ethan Chapin was a freshman majoring in sports management. He was a triplet whose brother and sister also attended the University of Idaho. Here's Ethan Chapin's mother. If everybody was like Ethan Chapin in this world, it would be a better place.
Ethan's obituary states, Ethan lived his best life. He loved the social life, intramurals, and tolerated the academics. Zanna and Ethan were a couple many admired for their deep love of one another. One of Zanna's two surviving roommates placed the pair at Ethan's fraternity party between 9 p.m. and 1.45 a.m. Saturday, November 12th, 10 p.m. to 1.30 a.m.
Madison Mogan and Kaley Gonzalez were seen at the Corner Club bar in downtown Moscow, picked up by security footage. Madison Mogan was a 21-year-old senior from Coeur d'Alene who was majoring in marketing. Her grandmother said she'd always been a caring person who kept many long-term friendships and close ties with extended family. Here's Madison's boyfriend, Jake. Maddie was my best friend.
She was the first person I talked to every morning and the last person I talked to before bed. Madison was close with 21-year-old Kaylee González since the sixth grade. The pair, both beautiful blonde girls, looked more like sisters than friends. 21-year-old Kaylee was a senior majoring in general studies and was in the Alpha Phi sorority. In fact, Kaylee had recently moved out of the house on King Road and only returned to show Maddie the car she'd bought.
She planned to use it when she moved to Austin to start her life. Kaylee was just weeks away from graduating. In an Instagram post for Madison's 21st birthday, Kaylee posted pictures of the pair throughout their lives and wrote, quote, I wouldn't have wanted anyone else to be the main character in all my childhood stories. Madison replied, I love you more than life, my best friend forever, and more.
Here's Kaylee's father. These girls were absolutely beautiful. They came here together, and in the end, they died together. In the early morning hours of Sunday, November 13th, the temperature in Moscow, Idaho, hovered around 28 degrees. The air was thick with ice fog.
At approximately 1.30 a.m., Kaylee and Madison were seen at a downtown food truck, the Grub Truck, located less than a quarter mile south of the bar they'd been at earlier, the Corner Club. Here's some audio of the footage captured on a Twitch livestream. It is the last known audio of the two best friends.
Welcome back. I think I would like the carbonara. Okay. But if I have like a free grub took on my like nap. Oh, yep. So what you want to do is we'll actually do this. Cool. Thank you. Absolutely. Here is the exact timeline of this night. 1.45 a.m.
According to a surviving roommate, Ethan and Zanna returned from the fraternity party to Zanna's home at 1122 King Road. 1.56 a.m. Just 11 minutes later, Madison and Kaylee left the food truck using their sorority's designated driving service. By 2 a.m., everyone was home for the night. 2.42 a.m.,
A cell phone connected to accused murderer Brian Koberger's home in Pullman, Washington, showed him leaving his apartment. At the time of the murders, Koberger was a 28-year-old Ph.D. criminology candidate at Washington State University. He was located approximately 10 minutes from the University of Idaho. Cell phone data showed the accused traveling south for five minutes until 2:47 a.m., at which point the phone stopped reporting to the network.
The accused was driving a 2015 white Hyundai Elantra. 3:29 a.m. A white sedan is seen passing by the victim's residence on King Road. 4:00 a.m. Xana Kernodle receives a fast food delivery to the house. 4:04 a.m. There is another sighting of a white sedan driving down King Road past the residence. 4:12 a.m.
Zanna is on her phone, scrolling through social media. 4:20 a.m., a white sedan is seen leaving the area at high speed. The accused's phone appears to be turned back on and pinged south of Moscow, Idaho, on State Highway 95. - The bodies of three women and one man, all 21 or under, were found together over the weekend. - The autopsy report reveals the victims were stabbed to death. - Here's Stephanie.
So much has been reported about the magnitude of violence that these four victims suffered. And everyone understands that what happened that night was an unparalleled tragedy. But here's what we know as a matter of fact, taken from the arrest affidavit filed on December 29th, 2022. Some portions of the 18-page statement are redacted, including specific injuries sustained by the victims.
It begins when investigators arrived at 1122 King Road at approximately 4 o'clock p.m. on November 13th, 2022. In an effort to understand the intricacies and protocols of scene security and processing of a crime scene, we reached out to forensic expert and host of the podcast Body Bags, Joseph Scott Morgan. I asked Joseph what an officer is looking at or thinking about when they enter a scene for processing. Here's Joseph.
It's hard to avert your eyes when you see evidence of extreme violence. In this case, you would have had copious amount of blood everywhere. And so as an investigator, you're thinking as horrible as that is, you have to maintain your vision here to separate the horror of what you're seeing from the practicality. And we're
Where should I step? Where should I step? You know, you look obviously for a weapon or evidences of forced entry. If you've got sliding glass doors, have they been kicked in? And then I think from a security perspective and also an evidentiary perspective,
you check the door, hopefully with a gloved hand, you haven't had a chance to look into hidden places at that point in time. And there's the rub legally, because even though there's a homicide, you're still going to need a warrant to go in there and process the scene. Because absent a warrant, anything that you collect in that environment suddenly is invalid. I'll give you a great example. If you've got like
a footlocker or a chest of some kind, by law, when you go into a residence like this, even though they're dead bodies, you can't go opening those areas without a warrant. Okay? So you have to get a warrant before you can go digging through chest of drawers or looking in what are generally referred to as hidden spaces. If there's a closet
without, with a door on it, for instance, you can, from a safety perspective, the law allows you to open that door and say, is anybody in here? Flash your light because that's a reasonable place that you would find a victim and you're trying to assess it. But
You can't go peeling through clothes and pulling out shoeboxes and all that sort of thing. So it seems vast, but there is a prescribed methodology for going through one of these scenes. Your job, after you've verified that people are in fact dead in that house, is to secure it. No one else is to come in here. Period. Period.
Forget it until those that show up with a warrant and those that show up with the authority to investigate the scene arrive, and then you turn it over to them at that point. The affidavit reads, quote, Upon our arrival, the Idaho State Police forensic team was on scene and was preparing to begin processing the scene. Moscow Police Department Officer Smith, one of the initial responding officers to the incident, advised he would walk me through the scene. End quote.
I asked Joseph Scott Morgan why it's important to be escorted through by an initial responding officer.
You only get one first look at any scene, period. And the person that would have walked in and have found those bodies initially, they essentially have a roadmap in their brain at that point in time. Because trust me, even for the most hardened of police officers, they're going to remember. But from a practical standpoint, when you have another individual that is higher ranking,
maybe has more responsibility, it is important that you be walked through. And this is what is actually, there's a term for this. This is called the initial walkthrough. Continuing with the affidavit, quote, Officer Smith directed me down the hallway to the west bedroom on the second floor, which I later learned was Anna Kurnodle's, end quote. Here again, Stephanie.
Zanner Cronodal, age 20, was in a sorority and loved her dog named Shoeshine. She was remembered by her family as always being positive, funny, and was loved by everyone. She and Ethan were in love and by all accounts, a solid couple. The affidavit continues, quote, "'As I approached the room, I could see a body later identified as Cronodal's laying on the floor. Cronodal was deceased with wounds that appeared to have been caused by an edged weapon.'
I asked Joseph Scott Morgan what we could take away from this statement. So what we can learn from just that statement alone is that these wounds were so obvious that a person like this that doesn't see them day in and day out, they recognize that these are sharp force injuries. And apparently they were so glaring that he had no trouble making that assessment. Zanna was where?
not in her bed she was on the floor so you have that question as an investigator
why is this young lady on the floor and not in the bed? That's an important point for investigators to consider because if you say that she was in her bed, that implies that she was attacked in her bed, killed in her bed, and not moved, even in a post-mortem state, okay? Now, you would have to go back to the EMTs, I think, that initially responded. And the question you want to ask them
The EMT is, okay, let me get this straight. Now, when you walked into this room, did you see this young woman on the floor or did you take her from the bed and place her on the floor? Because for instance, if she's unconscious, they're going to try to take life-saving measures, right?
It's not a good idea to do chest compressions on a bed. It gives. You need a solid backing for that. And many times they will remove people and put them on the floor. Relative to her injuries, she did have an awareness because, you know, we hear a lot in forensics about defensive wounds, okay? And sometimes they're mild. You know, you get bruises on the forearms, like in a blocking position. You can get stab wounds on the forearms. That's not what they're talking about.
They're talking about a blade being drawn through the palm of her hand down to the point where, and it has been stated, this is not me saying it, that her tendons were cut. So that is a robust injury, to say the very least, with a very sharp-edged weaponry.
So if you can draw a blade across the surface of a hand, you're not just breaking the epidermis or the dermis or the sub-Q fat. You're going through muscle. You're going through structures at that point in time. It's a deep, deep cut or cuts. And so that assessment is very important to make. Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in a moment. Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford, and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty.
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Continuing on with the affidavit, quote,
Ethan Chapin was also 20 years old.
He was actually the firstborn of triplets. His siblings also attend the University of Idaho. His mom said that he was the most incredible person you'll ever know. And according to his obituary, he lived his very best life in college. First off, we have to begin to think about his remains in relation to Zan's remains, Ethan's remains in relation to her.
Ethan's a big kid. He's robust. He's an athlete. You can only imagine when faced with an aggressor, he would respond. So I think one of the questions we would have to ask is, was he lying in bed asleep? And he awoke as a result of a disturbance, covered the distance from the bed to the door, and there he is met by an assailant. This seems to run contrary to even pressers that I have borne witness to where people
It is stated in the presser that the victims were asleep. The presser, or press conference Joseph refers to, took place on November 21st, 2022, just one week after the multiple homicides. Here's Roger Lehner, Moscow Police Department operations captain. Detectives have been provided with the results of those autopsies and determined that it was likely all four victims were asleep during the attack.
Some of the victims had defensive wounds. Again, Joseph Scott Morgan. When you put that out there and you say that the victims were asleep,
were they asleep and died in their sleep? Because I don't know, for me, my default position automatically is if you tell me that, that's what I'm thinking. But that doesn't seem to be the case. We've already got evidence that has been clearly stated that Zanna was found on the floor, all right? If we can establish that she didn't commonly sleep on the floor, then you know that she had an awareness. Then, you know, we think about Ethan lying
Well, what does that mean? Does it actually mean that just the top of his head was lying on the threshold? Was he entirely out of the room and lying back into the bedroom? You know, and look, with both of these victims, I have to think that
that there was very intimate contact. I don't mean that in a sexual way. I mean that this is a tussle. This is a fight. So you think about contact trace evidences that is transitioning between the assailant and the victims. And in what order did this happen? That's important to ask. It's not just the action of the killing. It's those moments, those moments
perimortem moments, which means in the midst of death, that are very compelling to me because you know that there had to be very intimate, up close and personal contact between the assailant and these victims. For further clarification, I asked Joseph about the significance of Ethan being reported found, quote, in the room in this report versus other reports we've read placing him in the doorway.
Maybe it is semantics, but semantics aside, when this kind of information is released to the public, it's very confusing because it goes to confusion about the dynamic of the event. And remember, and this is very, very important, there has yet to be a jury selected. And this data is out there. This information is out there. And this is kind of very specific information about the scene.
Very specific. You're not just talking about two victims here that died of sharp force injury. No, we've discussed being on the floor. We've discussed specific injuries. That's very detailed information that has now jumped out from inside of that kind of protective investigative bubble.
And so it might be semantics. However, it is important and this is going to have to be explained and it will be explained. That question will be asked. All of this is going to be on display in court. I don't know how far it will go, but it's certainly interesting because I was confused because from when I initially heard the presser that the chief gave, he plainly stated they were attacked while they were asleep.
Okay? Don't know what that means, but I gotta tell you, it doesn't necessarily marry up with the idea that one victim is lying in the doorway and the other is on the floor adjacent to the bed. The affidavit continues, quote, The third floor consisted of two bedrooms and one bathroom. The bedroom on the west side of the floor was later determined to be Kaylee Gonsalves'. I later learned there was a dog in the room when Moscow police officers initially responded. End quote.
I asked Joseph if there's a standard protocol at a murder scene when a pet is present.
When you actually have an animal present at the scene, I've worked cases like this where, you know, I remember one case in particular where I had a cat that was super saturated in blood. As a matter of fact, they had tracks of the blood and there were bloody paw prints everywhere. As a result of that, you would want to get that animal secured as quickly as possible. If you have a collar that has blood
what appears to be blood evidence on it whose blood was it and that can go to sequence of of events if you find a collar and it's on the third floor of the home but yet you find blood sample on that collar from individuals that are on the second floor of the home how did that happen how is that explained so yeah you should treat that animal as if they are evidence and they are evident so the dog plays a crucial role once again from the affidavit
Here's Stephanie, followed by Joseph Scott Morgan.
To say that Maddie was loved by all is such an understatement. Maddie was known for her laugh and her offbeat sense of humor. Maddie was a waitress at the Mad Greek restaurant and was using her marketing skills to run a social media campaign for them.
She planned to move to Boise after graduating in the spring. Kaylee Gondalvez and Madison Mogan were best friends since they were little girls. Kaylee was the middle child of her family, and she did absolutely everything she set her mind to. According to her family, Kaylee was the ultimate go-getter and constantly was looking for an adventure.
She had recently bought a 2016 Range Rover and planned a trip to Europe, and she was expecting to move to Texas after graduation. Out of all the cases that I've handled over the course of my career, you're talking about trauma, and this includes even shotgun wounds. In my experience, there is nothing bloodier than sharp force injury, particularly if you have multiple
And after a period of time, forgive me for saying this, but after a period of time, after someone has been deceased and they've bled profusely, the blood will begin to coagulate and crust. It's hard to make sense of anything in low light circumstances, particularly if you're first eyes on. And in this case, I think even when compared to Zanna and Ethan, these two young women's bodies are contained. They're in a single space. So it,
I'm not saying that it would be easy to process those bodies, but given the contained space that they're in, it wouldn't be as taxing, I think, for the investigator. And you can also begin to understand the dynamic, I think, a little bit of the event, because if you have blood on the bodies of individuals
those downstairs that has been transferred from those upstairs that goes to sequencing. Because essentially, you know, if you're using the same weapon, you got the same person that's perpetrating this and keep in mind, they're going to be super saturated with blood. I will stand by that comment. They're moving about and transferring all of this from person to person.
The knife itself acts as almost like a method of inoculation with this blood. So you're introducing blood into other victims as you go down the timeline here. The affidavit continues, quote,
End quote.
Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in a moment. Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty.
Well, I don't know about you, but like I never liked being told, oh, wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age, every age? That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful Beauty. Beautiful skin at every age. Learn more at MeaningfulBeauty.com.
MITRE's mission is to solve problems for a safer world. If you have a passion for applied cybersecurity with skills in infrastructure threat intelligence, deterrence technologies, advisal threat emulation, or intelligence analysis, explore the many challenging and fulfilling career opportunities at MITRE.org slash careers. That's M-I-T-R-E dot org slash careers.
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At this point in our interview, Joseph pulls out the exact same make and model knife and sheath that's alleged to be the murder weapon.
That's it. This is the exact weapon. It's the same one that was used. Oh, my gosh. So this thing is, like, really heavy. It's very robust.
very robust. And Courtney, right out of the box, I could have shaved my beard with this thing. It's that sharp, right out of the box. And you can see this one's got the, it's got the USMC. Yeah. That's what they found. Oh my gosh. And this, I think, is where they recovered the DNA from. And he may have wiped the whole damn thing down. Okay. Okay.
But the one place that he would not have accounted for is this button stamp. And if you drag your thumb across it like that, you're going to put skin cells in here. Because these people in the lab, Courtney, I got to tell you, they're pretty amazing. They consider things that you and I don't consider.
This is what we harvested from that area. And if he wipes that damn thing down, let's just say he prepared before he got there. Okay, I've thought about this. So he would be walking in with this like this. And I've always, it almost seems Shakespearean. I've always envisioned him getting on that bed or standing at the end of the bed and maybe bumping the bed to wake them up.
And he gets into this frenzy, and he attacks him with a knife, and he's a sadist, and he's inflicting pain. And in this frenzy, he drops the sheath. And I can only imagine, he had an oh shit moment, I guarantee you. When he rolled back to his apartment, he's like, wait, where is this thing? I got the knife, but I don't have the sheath. You know, I'm thinking he's got this going on in his mind. And at this point, he's passed the Rubicon. Our goals for this season are multi-pronged.
Here's Stephanie. We're going to unpack the facts, hopefully to better understand the law, search and seizure issues at play, how the demolition of the crime scene may or may not have impacted things moving forward. We want to contextualize what's been happening for family and friends in the wider community in the wake of such a tragedy. And we really want to understand the psychology, what might shape the mind of a killer. This season on The Idaho Massacre.
What can you do with evil? You can exterminate it. And here, their alibi defense apparently is that he likes to drive around and see the moon and the stars. Do I buy it? No. We all like to believe in our hearts that if we come across somebody who's violent or dangerous, that we'd get a spidey sense. Did you have that feeling that he was...
capable or off. To be honest, I never got any of those feelings. However, I do remember this one incident that happened. Sociopaths and psychopaths simply do not have a feeling when they hurt someone else. If you think about it, it makes them pretty much perfect killing machines.
I was just stuck in this cycle of, "Oh my gosh, what's going to happen next? What's going to happen next? Or could this happen to me?" The underlying psychological phenomenon is that they are doing to themselves what the killer didn't do to them. Until the case is over, it seems nonsensical, to say the least, to destroy the building.
Is there an immediacy for a jury going to a house, psychologically speaking? I would say yes. This is a death penalty case because there were four people killed all at once in a really brutal manner.
For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at KT underscore studios. The Idaho Massacre is produced by Stephanie Leidegger, Gabriel Castillo, and me, Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design by Jeff Twa. Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Massacre is a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
MITRE is investing in a massive AI supercomputer to power a new federal AI sandbox. With AI's potential to drive transformational advances across industries, MITRE's expertise in healthcare, cybersecurity, transportation, finance, climate, and national security will be critical. Transform your career while helping solve problems for a safer world. Visit MITRE.org slash careers. That's M-I-T-R-E dot org slash careers.
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