Mind of a Murderer
39:59 Share

MITRE's mission is to solve problems for a safer world. If you have a passion for applied cybersecurity with skills in infrastructure threat intelligence, deterrence technologies, advisal threat emulation, or intelligence analysis, explore the many challenging and fulfilling career opportunities at MITRE.org slash careers. That's M-I-T-R-E dot org slash careers.

Hey, it's Danielle, Will, and Ryder from Podmeets World. Thanks to our friends at Hyundai, we were able to record a very special episode for you guys at the one and only, wait for it...

Boy Meets World House. Take a listen. Are there any moments or spots on any of the sets we worked on over the seven years that you guys felt more at home that were like your little spots on the set you like to hang out? I'm afraid it was the sink. Oh, really? Yes. Oh, yeah. You had to act like a sink a lot. I was behind the counter. Yeah. Right. Doing business constantly. Mom stuff. Disciplining you.

In some way. This has been brought to you by the fully electric Hyundai Ioniq 5. New episode out now. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. With millions of books on Amazon, there's a reading feeling for everyone. For example, Olivia's...

After learning she has quite a lot in common with a 9th century Viking, is different to Luna's. After the old man narrowly escaped being bitten by zombies, which is also different to Jerome's. His eureka moment on finding the perfect new quote for his dating profile. From two to Amazon Books. That reading feeling awaits.

While there are many similarities between psychopaths and sociopaths, there are many differences too. You're somebody who has had such close contact with so many of these prolific killers that it's frankly probably impossible to boil it down to one key ingredient. His first killings were actually a mass murder. And after that, with his second killing is where he really became a serial killer. This is The Idaho Massacre, a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio.

Season 2, Episode 7, Mind of a Murderer. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Leidecker and Gabe Castillo. In the aftermath of the senseless tragedy of Ethan Chapin, Zanna Kernodle, Madison Mogan, and Kaylee Gonsalves' murders on November 13th, 2022, there are countless unanswerable questions. Some will be answered at trial, and many may linger forever.

We can't know what was in the murderer's mind or even, at this point, who the murderer is. The accused is presumed innocent unless proven guilty in a court of law. But in an effort to try and understand the unthinkable and offer context and perspective to the inner workings of violent criminals, Stephanie speaks with Dr. Scott Bond, a criminologist and author of books including Why We Love Serial Killers, The Curious Appeal of the World's Most Savage Murderers.

Here's Stephanie. How and why did you even get in this business to begin with? Well, in terms of the origin of my interest in all things that go bump in the night, I really have to go back to my childhood because I was always fascinated by human nature, by human motivations, both the good and the bad. So I always believed

I was fascinated by sort of what we would perceive as evil or the criminal mind, but delving deeper than just the stereotypes and just the superficial stamp of evil that's often placed on this. So throughout my entire life, I've always wanted to penetrate stereotypes and dig beneath the surface and truly understand motivations and behavior.

Do you believe people are born evil or is that conditioning environment? I know that's a loaded question, but do you have a feeling on that? Well, yeah, the word evil is a very explosive, powerful and dangerous word in my mind, because once you put that stamp of evil on a group or an individual, there's really no room for discussion any longer.

because you can't have a meaningful conversation with evil. What can you do with evil? You can exterminate it, right? So you've basically eliminated all other possibilities. And I think that in criminology and sociology, we call that reductionism. And once you place a label on something, it's really hard to remove that label.

So in terms of evil, does evil exist? Yes. But I believe that it is manifested in actions and deeds and thinking. But I don't believe that there is an evil gene. I don't think anyone is born inherently evil. I think that once again, evil is manifested in the things that people do. And in terms of our people born that way.

Well, that gets to the old nature versus nurture debate. And based upon all of my study and experience, like most things in life, it's more complicated than one would seem on the surface. And in fact, it's a combination of nature and nurture. And in the case of serial killers, for example, about 75% of all serial killers are either psychopaths or sociopaths.

And according to the Americans Psychiatric Association, clinically speaking, that means that they are not mentally ill in terms of a clinical diagnosis. They are what are known as antisocial personality disorders.

for which there is no cure. While there are many similarities between psychopaths and sociopaths, there are many differences too. The one thing that they have in combination, of course, is just a disdain toward the feelings of others and a complete rejection of the laws, rules, and mores of society. And they don't mind hurting people to get what they want. They tend to be very opportunistic, aggressive, and goal-oriented, and they don't care who they step on.

Because people often use the terms sociopath and psychopath interchangeably, as well as sometimes more widely than is warranted, Stephanie asked Scott Bond to extrapolate on the distinctions between and origins of the two.

Psychopaths are a function of nature and sociopaths are a function of nurture. Sociology, socialize, that's hence sociopath. A psychopath is born with a brain that simply doesn't function like the normal human brain. The psychopathic brain is incapable

of an emotional connection with other human beings. I like to use the analogy of a, say, a hairdryer. If you pull the cord out of the wall, you've got a pretty useless hairdryer. Well, in the case of empathetic understanding and emotional connection, a psychopath is simply disconnected. They can't feel it. They're incapable of forming emotional bonds with other people.

But the sociopath is different. They are born with a normal functioning brain.

But over time, they become conditioned into predatory behavior. And an example of that is through trauma, through abuse, through neglect, through torture and torment. And sociopaths are actually much more common. They outnumber psychopaths about eight to one in terms of their existence in society. And psychopaths are more dangerous because of the fact that they simply

do not have a feeling when they hurt someone else. And they don't know fear. They're unflappable. Nothing bothers them. If you think about it, it makes them pretty much perfect killing machines.

Because they lack empathy and they also are not petrified of the law and don't have the same level of shame and guilt and human emotion that would come across as obvious if you were considering something violent. I think you might have told me this. Is it true that, of course, not all psychopaths become serial killers? In fact, there are many psychopaths that probably run very fancy tech companies and are industry makers.

However, most serial killers do have some sort of psychopathic behavior. Is that accurate? You described it very well. There is an area of overlap between psychopaths and serial killers. And in the case of serial killers, it's a big overlap. But by no means are all psychopaths serial killers and not all serial killers are psychopaths.

There are over representation of psychopaths in the bastions of power, whether it be in business, finance, guess what, politics, and even things like neurosurgery, any type of field which demands incredible

focus and discipline, guess what? Psychopaths tend to do very well because they're unflappable. When it comes to serial killers, at least 75% are either psychopaths or sociopaths.

And of that, let's say it's 75%, probably 50% of the total or two thirds of that group are psychopaths. So psychopaths do make up the largest single group among serial killers. Why? They're almost perfectly born bread killing machines. If somebody is a psychopath, do they know it?

It's a great question. And they are very good at compartmentalizing. And so they can have multiple realities, which they take very much as proof, depending upon which

compartment they're in. And I'm not describing multiple personality disorders here. I'm talking about an individual, and I'm going to use a specific example who I am very familiar with through correspondence and long-term connection. And that is Dennis Rader, who called himself, because he's a psychopath, BTK, which stands for Bind, Torture, Kill.

From almost the moment of accused murderer Brian Koburger's arrest in December 2022, his name has been used in the same sentences as BTK. In the course of his criminology education, the accused studied under a renowned BTK expert, and many have theorized about commonalities between the two. Here's Stephanie.

I had heard also that Brian Koberger for certain had to have been a study of BTK and his murderous ways. And there does seem to be some alignment in that. Also the intimacy factor. So in Brian Koberger's case, using the knife, if in fact that's accurate, you know, it's close contact that is considered a very intimate kill, much like strangulation. Yeah.

And it's sexual to the penetration of sexual sadists. And this goes all the way back to Jack the Ripper, who hated women. And so what what more vile thing than you can you do that penetrate them over and over with a knife? So I really think there was a deep seated underlying insecurity there and actually an anger toward women that may have well been manifested through these murders with a knife.

Can you just give us a little brief history on BTK for anyone who doesn't know that case as closely? Dennis Rader grew up in Wichita, Kansas. He had a relatively normal childhood. He was a Boy Scout. He loved knots, which was a foreshadowing for things later. He did have some compulsions throughout his youth. For example, he was obsessed with blood. He was obsessed with dismemberment.

And he at the age of 10 is where the seed was really planted because he witnessed his grandmother kill a chicken in the backyard on her farm for dinner. And he became sexually aroused at the age of 10. But he didn't even know what it was at 10. He didn't even know what it was, but he knew he liked that sensation. And he nurtured that over time. And he became a fanatic.

peeping Tom and he would break into women's homes and steal their underwear. He would fantasize in great lengths and have fetish rituals and also sexually release himself and fed this. And over time, as he reached early adulthood, he

began trolling women. That's what he referred to it as in Wichita, Kansas, watching them come and go. And he put together a whole list, a whole list of potential victims, a card catalog almost of photographs and details on someone that he might kill because he was obsessed this this

Hunger was growing inside of him. But all the while, outside, he was a normal-seeming guy. He was going to night school. He got married. He was starting a family. But by age 28, he couldn't stand it any longer. It reached what I like to call a tipping point.

And he reached the point where he had to kill for the first time. And he had set his sights on a family named Otero, a Latino family in Wichita, Kansas. And he was obsessed with the mother and the beautiful 11-year-old daughter, Josephine. And he went there one morning in January of 74, but things went awry.

He didn't expect that four members of the family would actually be there, the mom, dad, the little son, and Josephine. But as he told me, he said, I didn't get all dressed up for nothing. And being the unflappable psychopath that he was, he was armed with a gun. He went in the back door and he told them, as long as you cooperate, no one will get hurt. I'm here to simply rob you. They complied. And then he became buying, torture, kill for the very first time.

and tortured and killed every member of the family, living out the fantasies that had been developing for 15 years. And so his first killings were actually a mass murder. And after that, with his second killing is where he really became a serial killer. But he ultimately killed 10 people. He ultimately killed 10 people that we know of. I suspect there might be others out there, you know, looking at cold cases now.

Scott Bond continues his explanation of how many psychopaths are pathological in their capacity to compartmentalize. Here's Scott with more on how BTK explained it to him. He described it as his multifaceted life is like a photographic cube. You know, maybe you remember those photo cubes where there'd be a different picture on each side of the cube and you could look at it that way. He sees his life that way.

And so when he's looking at the picture that is Daddy Dennis with his two children, that's all he sees. And so the psychopathic serial killer is on a different side of the cube that is non-existent. So when he's in daddy mode, there is nothing else. He is the religious president of his Lutheran Church Association, which he truly was. He's the doting father. He is the Boy Scout leader in town. He is the toast of Wichita, Kansas. People loved him.

Flip that thing now to BTK, buying, torture, kill. Now he is the bloodthirsty, completely psychopathic, malignant narcissist, malignant narcissist, meaning narcissistic tendencies with sadism thrown in for good measure.

And it's a completely different thing. And yes, he knows. He knows exactly what he when he's in BTK mode. He knows who he is. He knows what he wants. He just doesn't care. He told me, he said, Scott, I know that it's wrong to kill. I know that society has these rules. I don't care. Nothing is going to stop me.

And he told me, he said, the reason that he's compelled to do this, in fact, is because he was a strangler. And when he had his hands around the neck of his victim and he crushed their throats and saw the light of life distinguished in their eyes, he said, at that moment, I know that I am God.

He is such a scary example of someone who's able to live in both lives. And I've heard interviews with his daughter who by all accounts says he was like the greatest, most loving dad, like you just reported. And I guess that's what's so scary about it is just the idea that somebody can be so functional in the world and be so dysfunctional in the world and kind of tick-tock between both universes with very little tells. So how did you get involved with BTK?

I was writing this book, which is why we love serial killers, The Curious Appeal, The World's Most Savage Murderers. And what I wanted to do is I wanted to understand serial killers from different perspectives. I'm a criminologist, but I'm trained in sociology. And so from a sociological perspective, everything has its

place and meaning and even purpose in society. And what's the mosaic? How do these things fit together? So I sought out the news media who have reported on cases like BTK and Son of Sam. I developed a very great friendship with Roy Hazelwood, one of the premier FBI profilers from whom I learned so much. And unfortunately, he's passed away a few years ago. But I also decided

I've got to go to the serial killers themselves and try to understand their own identities that they create for themselves, because some of them and BTK is sitting up there at the top of the heap is a highly narcissistic individual that was very aware of his own narrative and wanted to create.

create his profile and he even named himself. I mean, he called himself Bind, Torture, Kill, BTK, because that's what he does. And after his first couple of killings, when he didn't believe that he had gotten enough notoriety, he started writing to news media in Wichita, Kansas, saying, how many people do I have to kill before I get a little, you know, a little notoriety here? I want to I want a little press. Right. So I thought, who better to represent the

truly narcissistic self-absorbed psychopath in btk let's stop here for a break we'll be back in a moment

MITRE is investing in a massive AI supercomputer to power a new federal AI sandbox. With AI's potential to drive transformational advances across industries, MITRE's expertise in healthcare, cybersecurity, transportation, finance, climate, and national security will be critical. Transform your career while helping solve problems for a safer world. Visit MITRE.org slash careers. That's M-I-T-R-E dot org slash careers.

Is getting gas at Shell burning a hole in your wallet? Get the Drop app. With Drop, you can earn free gift cards just by filling up your tank. Download Drop now. Use code DROP88 to instantly receive $5 in points.

Navy Federal Credit Union likes to reward their members for using their credit cards. Whether you're shopping for groceries or booking your next vacation, the More Rewards card could make every purchase rewarding. More Rewards is your everyday, everywhere rewards card. And you could earn 30,000 bonus points when you spend $3,000 in the first 90 days of account opening. Get a low intro APR on balance transfers. Plus, get a one-time statement credit for Walmart Plus Membership.

When you use the Navy Federal mobile app, you can redeem your rewards. Plus, rewards never expire while account is open. Learn more at NavyFederal.org. An average credit card APR that's 6.81% lower than the industry average. Value claim based on 2023 internal average APR assigned to members compared to bank industry average credit card APR published in the Federal Reserve's G.19 Consumer Credit Data Release. Navy Federal is made it their mission to help military members. And at Navy Federal...

Our members are the mission. Message and data rates may apply. Visit NavyFederal.org for more information. Navy Federal is federally insured by NCUA. Terms and conditions apply. Learn more at NavyFederal.org. Scott Bond explains what was occurring between BTK and law enforcement in the three decades between committing his heinous crimes and when authorities captured him.

All the while, he was playing cat and mouse with the police because he's the ultimate control freak. And he would send letters to law enforcement, letters to the media. He would send personal items from his victims so that they would be sure that this was actually him. And he would lay clues and basically demonstrate that he was the puppet master. He was in control.

He was much smarter than law enforcement. And he played this game for 30 years before it ultimately caught up to him and he was finally apprehended. But all the while, he was living this dual life where he was the Boy Scout leader in town. He was the president of Lutheran Church Association. It's absolutely incredible.

And at that time when you spoke with him and in the times that you've had these conversations with him, do you get a cold chill? Is it does it seem obvious in retrospect that he was somebody who was capable of this level of violence? Because he was really top of the list of one of the more sick and sadistic, violent people.

murderers. Do you get that sense? Because he always seemed a little, like you said, a regular man. Let me say, first of all, Roy Hazelwood, once again, who was my friend, who was one of the pioneer FBI profilers. Roy told me, he said, without a doubt, the most cold-blooded, stone-cold psychopath that he ever sat across from was Dennis Rader. So you have it from Hazelwood himself. Now, in my case, because I am not

I'm not FBI. I wasn't able to sit with him. So all of our of our communication is through correspondence. But we are talking voluminous correspondence over a period of years. And yes, the detachment that you're talking about is always present. His writings are almost businesslike and clinical. He rarely, if ever, demonstrates or indicates any sort of emotional response.

One of the few times that I got a sense of it, well, one, when I asked him what killing does for him, and he told me that I am God. That's pretty telling right there. But another one, I asked him, I said, what did you find the most satisfying moment of your life? He said, well, I received a badge. And this is true. He got a badge from the city of Wichita.

He always wanted to be a police officer. He never quite made it, but he did become a compliance officer for the city of Wichita. They gave him a badge, which enabled him to come to people's homes and say, put your dog on a leash, trim your trees, trim your lawn. And this gave him that sense of power and entitlement and authority that he really, really craved. Well,

So here's the story. He's in the midst of his killing spree now. The BTK killer is at large.

And he goes into City Hall to get his little badge as a compliance officer. And while he's there, they say, oh, Dennis, let us take you into the BTK war room where we can show you everything that we're doing to catch this maniac, this madman. And so he gets a tour of the war room that's set up for them. And he's smiling like the cat that ate the canary, thinking to himself,

I truly am a genius. Look at this. They have no idea that I am the man they're looking for. And so he said to me, he said, this was the greatest rush of my life. The greatest rush of my life was that moment.

This does sort of fishtail into the Idaho massacre and the accused Brian Koberger. Again, to be clear, he is claiming his innocence and in no way are we trying to prove his guilt. But some of the things that kind of crossover with BTK that we have heard reported about Brian Koberger

is exactly law enforcement. He had a real penchant for wanting to be in law enforcement and in his later high school years had joined a certain part of his high school that was for law enforcement want-to-be's, essentially. He wanted to be a cop.

ultimately he got removed from that. And that might've been a cross section for him. We're told where maybe he then loathed law enforcement as a result, but at one point he wanted to wear a badge. And I wonder if that teeters into the same territory of wanting to be God, right? Because as

law enforcement, maybe from a young person's mind is law of the land and I keep it in check and I could see how that could have crossover in a more demented way into wanting to control people through violence like BTK did.

That's one. And then also the fact that he was, you know, seemingly a really ordinary guy that came from a really loving family and he had a lot of opportunity and just the emotional regulation that you have to have to go in this case, if again, what Brian Koberger is being accused of is accurate to go from killing four people and then headed back to class to be in the beehive the next day and talk about the case and

He didn't miss any school. He was a teacher's assistant and was there the next day and was still grading papers.

And to your earlier point, something that had come up in a recent interview that I did was with one of the classmates that was in his classroom before and after the killings. And it was a large class, like 300 students or so. And he was one of those teacher's assistants that gave a lot of notes, a lot of red lines through papers and assignments and many, many notes in the columns. And after the murders, her real notice was that...

The grades had gotten significantly better. There was still as much detail, lots of notes in the columns and lots of red lines. He was equally as thorough, but that where he would normally be a hard grader, post the murders, he was a very easy grader. It was A's, A's, A's, A's, and A's.

And I asked her what she felt about that. And her interpretation of that was that maybe he knew that law enforcement was looking for him and that he wanted the class to like him a little bit more should they get interviewed. My brain went to, he was just a little happier if what he's been accused of is true. He had that release that you're speaking of. And

much like BTK seeing the war room with all of the kills for him, if this was true, then maybe that was the high, that was the high he was hoping for.

I think that there's absolutely merit to what you're saying. As a matter of fact, as you were talking, I was thinking along those same lines that he had finally achieved something that he had been building up to for a long time. And similar to BTK, I do believe that he had been evolving, progressing, percolating for years and years. No one wakes up one day and says, this is a great day to start killing people. It just doesn't work that way.

whether you are a mass murderer and it's a one-time event. It just doesn't happen that way. This evolves over a long period of time and they reach this tipping point. Now, there are definitely similarities between BTK and Koberger. It's worth noting again that, like every other U.S. citizen, accused murderer Brian Koberger is presumed innocent as stipulated by the 5th, 6th, and 14th Amendments. Here again, criminologist Dr. Scott Baughn.

As I said earlier, you know, BTK killed four members of the same family. That was his first outing as a killer. Now, people ask me all the time, do I think that Koberger killed previously? And I believe the answer to that is no. He made rookie mistakes, not the least of which was leaving a knife sheath lying next to one of his victims with

touch DNA on it. I mean, that's, I mean, you talk about murder 101, you know, you don't, you don't leave that behind. And he also very foolishly, and I'm surprised given his study of forensics and so forth, that he would do this, but he turned his phone off during the time period of the killing and then turned it back on. Just leave your phone at home. You know, you don't need to turn it off. Just leave it in your apartment and go and kill and come back. I do believe that having looked at

at his progression and I've looked at his history quite a bit. This was a troubled individual. He had weight problems. He lost a tremendous amount of weight. He had drug problems. He had posted online years before some of his troubled thoughts and things that he was wrestling with. And so very much like BTK and BTK told me this.

that he was interested in forensics, he was interested in psychology, he was interested in the mind, partially to understand himself. And I think that this could very well be true of Brian Koberger. These individuals are self-aware, they know that something is happening here,

And as much as it may be stimulating, exciting and thrilling to them, this growing need to kill, at the same time, they recognize that this is a little bit abnormal and they want to try to understand it. BTK did, and I suspect that Koberger did as well, which is what led him into this study.

And in terms of the possible connection between the two, Rader says he's never corresponded with Koberger, although he has said he thinks that Koberger was in fact a clone. Then again, everything is about Dennis Rader. So naturally he's going to say that. But the one thing that we do know is that he had entered his doctoral program

He had previously gotten a master's degree at DeSales University, and there he was exposed to a forensics class taught by a professor who has also written about BTK. And I am sure in her research and in her classes, she discussed BTK.

So there's no question that I think Koberger would have been pretty versed, you know, in the background of BTK as well. And in my experience, serial killers do often study one another. They're what I like to refer to as students of the game. And they will even be jealous of one another. For example, when I told Dennis Rader, BTK, that I was also corresponding with David Berkowitz, the son of Sam, he scoffed. He said, what?

He's not a real man. He shot people.

Real killers strangle. Real men strangle. So he belittled Son of Sam. He obviously was very aware and he was even jealous of Son of Sam who had an occult symbol. David Berkowitz did during that same time frame BTK was killing. He came up with his own little BTK symbol. He was a copycat in that regard. So these individuals, they do look at one another. They do follow one another's headlines, if you will.

Can you just give a little brief snippet on Son of Sam? David Berkowitz, the son of Sam, falls into a category of serial killer known as a visionary serial killer.

And by visionary, what we mean is he was obsessed with the notion, the fantasy that he was killing for Satan, that he was being beckoned to do this. And this fantasy built in him over a period of time. He became obsessed with the occult. He became obsessed with Satan. And by 1976, he believed that he had to act out on this. And he went out and he bought himself a gun, a revolver, and he shot his way into the history books.

And he didn't buy just any gun. He got what is known as a Bulldog .44 caliber revolver, which is a big, heavy, powerful, loud handgun. This appealed to David Berkowitz's lack of self-esteem. He was very insecure in his manhood. And I think that this was almost like a phallic Freudian sexual thing. The size of it appealed to him, made him feel strong.

He began his shooting spree, which lasted a little more than a year in New York City. And it took several crime scenes before they realized they had a serial killer when they linked the ballistics from the shells from the crime scenes. And he became known as the 44 caliber killer initially.

But it was when he started his own terrorist terrorizing letter campaign to the news media and law enforcement that it became the thing of epic proportions and legend because he left the letter next to one of his victims and it was addressed to Captain Joe Borelli, who was heading up the task force, the serial killer task force. And in this letter, he introduced himself to the world as the son of Sam. And he said, I must provide Papa Sam, Satan,

with blood and his thirst is unquenchable. So I will be killing again and again and again.

So you can only imagine, all hell broke loose when this letter was published in the news media. And over a period of a year, Berkowitz sent letters to everybody from Jimmy Breslin, one of the notorious journalists of New York City at the time, and law enforcement. He started this terror campaign, much like BTK, but for different reasons. But he did the same thing. And when it became apparent

that he was targeting young white women with long, dark hair. Everything exploded because women began to cut their hair, dye their hair, wear wigs. By the summer of 1977, which became known as the Summer of Sam in New York City because he had the entire city of 8 million people in a death grip, you couldn't even buy a female wig anymore.

in New York City. So he truly, one man, held the city in this death grip. And that's why he is the thing of legend. He ultimately shot 13 people, killed six, and permanently disabled others. But he terrorized millions. Is he still alive?

Yes, he is. And I spent an entire day with him in a maximum security prison. I had lunch with him and he is no longer, your audience may be aware and they may not be aware, he had a self-described spiritual awakening. He became a born again Christian in 1986 when God visited his prison cell and washed away his sins.

And he was no longer the son of Sam Serial Killer. He is now the son of Hope Minister and Evangelist who is doing God's good work. Scoff if you will. But he has become something of a darling of the evangelical Christian community. And they actually operate a website in his name that has drawn hundreds of thousands of people from around the world who were drawn by his message of inspiration.

And so, yeah, I spent an entire day with him in prison and he insisted that we say the Lord's Prayer together. He wept tears of contrition. He wept tears of joy as he manifested the new Son of Hope. So the Son of Sam is now the Son of Hope. And we ate together. This is pretty remarkable. Cafeteria is just surrounded by vending machines.

And so I showed up that day with a huge bag of quarters because the staff told me, if you feed him, he will talk. So I was I was ready. I was ready. It's like going to the zoo. You know, we're going to you know, we're going to we're going to he's going to perform. And and I wasn't disappointed because, man, he ate and he ate and he ate.

and he ate three huge bags of Doritos, cool ranch flavored Doritos. He took me on this incredible journey and I'm sitting there and I'm thinking, man, if he's acting, he's pretty darn believable. He deserves an Academy Award because he's like the Robert De Niro of serial killer actors, if he's really this good. And then I'm thinking, well,

all right, maybe it's true. Maybe he has transformed. I got a PhD, but it's not in spiritual rebirth. So maybe it's true. But then the more cynical side of me said, he's full of shit. He's definitely full of shit. I've come to believe that reality is probably somewhere in the middle, as truth often is. So my take on David Berkowitz is,

He's exactly where he needs to be. He never should be set free. But if he, through his correspondence, and he's got an old fashioned Smith Corona typewriter that he corresponds with thousands of Christians around the world. If he's doing God's good work and he's helping these people, let him do it from behind bars. Let him do it. And I think of anything I've learned, not only just from you, but just working in true crime is that a person can be many things at once.

Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in a moment.

MITRE's mission is to solve problems for a safer world. If you have a passion for applied cybersecurity with skills in infrastructure threat intelligence, deterrence technologies, advisal threat emulation, or intelligence analysis, explore the many challenging and fulfilling career opportunities at MITRE.org slash careers. That's M-I-T-R-E dot org slash careers.

Everwolf down a Big Mac and thought, I need some extra cash. Then download the Drop app. Get rewarded for dining out and more. Use code DROP22 for $5 in points. Download Drop now.

Navy Federal Credit Union likes to reward their members for using their credit cards. Whether you're shopping for groceries or booking your next vacation, the More Rewards card could make every purchase rewarding. More Rewards is your everyday, everywhere rewards card. And you could earn 30,000 bonus points when you spend $3,000 in the first 90 days of account opening. Get a low intro APR on balance transfers. Plus, get a one-time statement credit for Walmart Plus Membership.

When you use the Navy Federal mobile app, you can redeem your rewards. Plus, rewards never expire while account is open. Learn more at NavyFederal.org. An average credit card APR that's 6.81% lower than the industry average. Value claim based on 2023 internal average APR assigned to members compared to bank industry average credit card APR published in the Federal Reserve's G.19 Consumer Credit Data Release. Navy Federal is made it their mission to help military members. And at Navy Federal...

Stephanie brings up a point from her conversation with Cassie, which was covered at length in Episode 3. Cassie is the former student who was in the criminology class the accused was a teacher's assistant in at the time of the murders.

The thing that kind of is unsettling for her that just doesn't add up in terms of whether he's guilty or not is the fact that she was like, I was not overly even paying attention in class. And even I know not to bring your cell phone to the scene and turn it off. It was such a tier one rookie mistake that they learned in that class that he was the TA of that that actually is what makes her think that maybe he didn't do it because it was just so messy and sloppy. What do you make of that?

I believe that it's a, like I said, a rookie error. And serial killers do refine their techniques over time. Any serial killer from Bundy to Dahmer said that their most nerve wracking kill was the first one. And if they made mistakes, it was the first time. To the extent that they get away with it, they obsess about it and they perfect it and they get better at it.

which is the scary thing, but the more prolific they are, the more successful and the more efficient that they are. So no, I think it's very consistent with a, you know, like I said, a rookie error on his part, but it also didn't make sense is they triangulated his cell phone and he had visited that house, that area a number of times.

And they got a ping later that morning. Once his cell phone turned back on at nine o'clock in the morning, they got a ping from his cell phone right outside the house. Well, that's pretty telling right there. Turn the cell phone off, go and kill the people, turn the phone back on, and then revisit the crime scene. And many killers do love to revisit their crime scenes.

It's hard to wrap your brain around it. You know, one of the things that you had said to me that I found so comforting, and I think we should just quote it directly because I've thought about it so many times, is that although we talk about serial killing and you do so importantly in your book, it's really rare, right?

I frequently compare serial killers to sharks because they're both predators in nature. And the thing that they have in common is that they are both rare, exotic, and deadly. And when it gets to the odds of being a victim of either one, they're remarkably similar. The odds of being attacked by either a shark or a serial killer

are about 150 million to one. So those are really good odds. But if you really want to feel good, you are twice as likely to be killed by a soft drink vending machine falling on top of you and crushing you than you are to become a victim of a serial killer. So I think we can all really go home and sleep well tonight.

There is something scary about the notion of somebody crawling through your window, certainly when you talk about it all the time. So I found that to be so comforting. And also just the deep dive going through the rabbit hole with you about, I think we are, I mean, myself included, just so interested in the why. And maybe that's just inherently unanswerable, but you're somebody who has had such close contact with so many of these prolific killers that

it's frankly probably impossible to boil it down to one key ingredient, whether they're a psychopath or a sociopath, bringing it full circle. But typically they're functional and that's scary.

we want them to seem like Hannibal Lecter, right? We want to know what the answer is. I want to get the feeling of a chill when I walk by a killer. And I know that's not true. Yeah, that's absolutely correct. And I've done extensive research into the whole psychology with the fascination of serial killers and the draw. A lot of it is based upon this curious fascination with the macabre and with serial killers. And part of it is just that. And what women consistently tell me is,

is I want to be able, as you said, to identify the next Ted Bundy if he shows up in my backyard. I want to be able to have the ability to identify this sociopath or psychopath before I potentially get involved with it. Nobody wants to date or get married to the next BTK or Ted Bundy. So what should I be looking for?

The draw of all this, and I think this is particularly true for women, has a lot to do with empathy, both in terms of empathizing with the victim, who more often than not is another woman, and so therefore, but for the grace of God, go I, but also empathy or at least a desire to understand the thinking of an individual like a Bundy or a BTK, because what they do is so horrible and so terrifying

that it's incomprehensible. So if you can just give me the tools so I can somehow understand this, then maybe it's not so terrifying after all. The thing that we don't understand is more terrifying than the thing that we do understand. More on that next time.

For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at KT underscore studios. The Idaho Massacre is produced by Stephanie Leidegger, Gabriel Castillo, and me, Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design by Jeff Twa. Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Massacre is a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

For more information on criminologist Scott Bond, you can visit his website, DocBond. That's D-O-C-B-O-N-N. There you can also book tickets to his fascinating nationwide show, Serial Killers with Dr. Scott Bond, the curious appeal of the world's most terrifying murderers.

Every day.

Our world gets a little more connected, but a little further apart. But then there are moments that remind us to be more human. Thank you for calling Amica Insurance. Hey, I was just in an accident. Don't worry, we'll get you taken care of. At Amica, we understand that looking out for each other isn't new or groundbreaking. It's human. Amica. Empathy is our best policy.

Hi, icons. It's Paris Hilton. Check out my new single, Chasin', featuring Meghan Trainor. Out today. I would have died for you. Now I'm saying goodbye to you. Cause I'm done chasing you.

I feel so lucky to collaborate with Megan and how perfectly she put my experience into words. Listen to Chasen from my new album, Infinite Icon, on iHeartRadio or wherever you stream music. Don't forget to visit InfiniteIcon.com to pre-save my album. Sponsored by 1111 Media.