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Big breaking news out of Idaho involving the death penalty and the man accused of murdering four University of Idaho students. Prosecutors say they will pursue the death penalty for Brian Koberger. This is the Idaho Massacre, a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. Episode 9, Life or Death.
I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Lidecker, Jeff Shane, and Connor Powell. With less than three weeks before the legal deadline to decide whether or not to seek the death penalty, prosecutors announced on June 26 they would recommend the maximum sentence for Brian Koburger. Calling him a continuing threat to society.
Under Idaho law, prosecutors have 60 days to formally notify a defendant after they enter their plea if the state plans to pursue the death penalty. In a short, to-the-point, three-page court filing, Lata County Prosecutor Bill Thompson wrote that based on the known information, there were no mitigating circumstances preventing prosecutors from pursuing the death penalty.
He also cited a number of, quote, aggravating circumstances in the brutal slayings as reasons his office was seeking the death penalty for the former criminology student. The Latah County prosecutor says the murder of four University of Idaho students was especially heinous, atrocious or cruel, manifesting exceptional depravity.
Thompson noted that Koberger acted with reckless indifference to human life and that the November 2022 murders of Kaylee Gonsalves, Madison Mogan, Zanna Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin were carried out during another crime like burglary. The decision was months in the making but also left the families of the victims divided.
Under a new Idaho law, Brian Kobriger could be executed by firing squad if he is convicted. In 2023, Idaho became the fifth state to adopt execution by firing squad as an alternative to lethal injection.
It was to be expected, given what he is accused of doing. The prosecution's decision to seek the death penalty for Koberger was not a surprise, but it did raise the stakes of the upcoming trial. And the move triggered a series of many legal maneuvers by both the defense and prosecution ahead of a pivotal motions hearing on the next day.
In the weeks leading up to Lata County Prosecutor Bill Thompson's decision to pursue the death penalty for Brian Koberger, prosecutors turned over a mountain of evidence to the 28-year-old's defense team as part of the legally required discovery period. Among the boxes of evidence were thousands of pages of reports and other written material. 10,200 photographs.
9,200 tips that were delivered to investigators. And 51 terabytes of audiovisual media and digital materials. As the state pushed their case forward against Brian Koberger, the 28-year-old's lawyer began to lay out their defense strategy ahead of the key June 27th hearing. They are not...
conceding anything here and will fight every piece of evidence. In recent days, Koberger added two new members to his defense team: Attorney Steven Mercer of Maryland and Bicca Barlow of California. Both are experienced defense lawyers and experts in criminal cases involving DNA evidence, particularly the use of the new DNA field of investigative genetic genealogy.
Led by Koberger's chief counsel Ann Taylor and her deputy Jay Logsdon, the new team immediately began to attack that prosecution's case. These new court filings offered a preview of a brewing legal battle over DNA evidence between the defense and the prosecution.
In new court documents, Koberger's attorney accusing the state of hiding its entire case. Defense attorney Jay Logsdon tore into the prosecution's case saying there was no evidence of connection between Brian Koberger and the four victims. He argued that there is, quote, "no explanation for the total lack of DNA evidence from the victims in Koberger's apartment, office, home or vehicle."
Building upon that argument, the defense also demanded investigators provide information about three other male DNA samples that were discovered at the murder scene. Here's Jeff and Stephanie. According to Koberger's defense, by December 17th, about one month after the murders, lab technicians had isolated three other male DNA samples, two of which came from inside the house and a third pulled from a black glove that was found outside the home a week after the murders.
But get this, police investigators didn't originally find that glove. It was found by a podcaster and a retired homicide detective who was just sort of poking around. He saw the glove nestled among some leaves and branches on the ground behind a trash can near the home on King Road. He then told police about it and they photographed the glove before collecting it for lab tests. How is that possible? Now again, no one really knows when that glove first appeared or if it had any connection to the murders. To
To me, the big question is, what type of glove is it? It was in the 30s the night of the murder, so people very likely would have been wearing winter gloves. But if it's a latex glove, that tells a different story. And while we don't know what type of glove it was, or if it was even connected to the crimes, we do know that investigators found male DNA inside of it.
Now what the defense wants to know is what type of testing was conducted on that glove, as well as the other two samples. The prosecution ran short tandem repeat or STR DNA on the three samples. But the defense is wondering if there were any other DNA tests that were run. Because look, when the information from the STR DNA test was actually submitted to the FBI database, no male DNA profiles were identified.
So Steph, to break that down, what we know is three men's DNA was connected to these samples, but we don't know who they are and if they have any connection to the crime. And it doesn't appear investigators tried to do a genetic genealogy DNA test to identify them in the same way that they did for Brian Koberger.
In addition to requesting information about the three unidentified male DNA samples, the defense also challenged the prosecution's use of investigative genetic genealogy to initially identify Brian Koberger from the DNA on the knife sheath.
Koberger's lawyers suggested the prosecution is purposefully withholding details of the genetic genealogy research, saying in a court filing, "A massive investigation came to focus on Koberger and Koberger alone. The state appears to be trying to hide its original domino, such as he cannot discover why."
Again, Stephanie and Jeff.
And now remember, when Idaho investigators first found the DNA on the knife sheath, they ran it through the Combined DNA Index System database. However, this person's DNA was not actually in the CODIS database. And investigators were unable to identify the individual, but they didn't give up. The FBI jumped in to help and used a rare, controversial DNA technique called Investigative Genetic Genealogy.
Like we talked about, traditionally, it's really only used in cold cases. Most famously, it was used to capture the Golden State Killer Joseph DeAngelo in 2018. It's actually rarely used in active investigations because some states have laws discouraging it. And many public genealogy companies, for example, like Ancestry.com, they prohibit law enforcement from using their databases for investigations.
But in this case, the FBI took the DNA sequence data from that knife sheath sample to a private testing facility in Texas called Othram, who then utilized public genealogy websites to identify Koberger's family tree. However, despite the defense's request, the prosecution is saying that Koberger and his defense team have no right to the FBI data and the paperwork from this process.
This is going to become a DNA case. That's what it's going to be all about. This bushy eyebrow identification is going nowhere. But it's a battle of experts. So usually the government has a lot of money, much more than a public defender's office. So one of the problems for the defense is going to be to get enough money to hire the appropriate experts to deal with this issue of DNA, because that's really what it's going to come down to. And I also believe that there are some serious problems in terms of
of the way this thing was handled in terms of sending it out. I mean, I was shocked, truthfully, to see that. Steven Greenberg is a legal expert and former federal U.S. attorney. He spoke with Stephanie and Jeff. Koberger's defense team believes the FBI's handling of the investigative genetic genealogy data is crucial evidence and could be exculpatory.
Exculpatory evidence means exactly what it sounds like. It's exculpatory to the defendant. The Supreme Court a number of years ago decided a case called United States v. Brady, a long time ago. So this, besides lawyers call it Brady material. And what it means is prosecution that has in its possession anything that in any way is helpful of defense, it must be turned over. And if they don't turn it over, it could be the end of the case for them.
Even many times there's been a guilty verdict and then on appeal, it turned out that there was grading information or exculpatory information that wasn't turned over and the guilty verdict was vacated. Is there a time when that window closes or is it every moment up until the verdict is read?
in terms of when they have to turn it over? Yeah. Never ceases. Even if during the trial, let's say, something came up that all of a sudden landed in the lap of the prosecution and it was helpful of defense, they'd have to turn it over. It's a constant obligation that the prosecution has.
Using genetic genealogy to identify a suspect is a painstaking process and requires skilled researchers and analysts to put the complicated puzzle together. During the process, it can also identify a huge number of people connected to a potential suspect. Stephanie and Jeff. How exactly does DNA work? Each person's DNA comes from roughly 50% of their parents and 25% of their grandparents.
And with each generation you go back, the genetic similarities are reduced a quarter, meaning you share about 12.5% of your DNA with your first cousins and 3.125% with your second cousins and actually less than 1% with your third cousins. In most public genealogy databases, it's pretty easy to find third or second cousin matches because the bar is so low. That's why you see headlines where celebrities say they're related to famous dead presidents.
But in this case, to narrow it down to a specific person, genetic genealogists at Othram, that's the testing company we were talking about, and the FBI had to do a lot of digging through birth certificates and other genealogy information to build the tree. And this is the important part for the defense because they want to know the process from start to finish.
Yeah, Steph, what they're saying is that if all this painstaking work was done, there should be a long paper trail of how this research was executed. And you would think Othram or the FBI would have logged it somewhere. But the prosecution has so far refused to provide the data to Koberger's defense team, with the prosecution insisting they don't have it.
The prosecution also says they won't use this information at Coburger's trial because they want to protect the names and personal information of hundreds of innocent relatives on Coburger's family tree and the names of the publicly available genetic genealogy services used. The question is, does the FBI and Othram have the records the defense wants? Were any of the records kept? Or has all of it been destroyed?
Regardless, this is a potential issue for law enforcement and the prosecution's case because of the Supreme Court-mandated obligation to provide all Brady evidence to a defendant, especially a defendant in a death penalty case. Here again, former federal prosecutor Steven Greenberg.
The only thing that popped out to me so far is for some reason, when the Bureau went through all the different phases it went through in trying to match the DNA with this defendant, and they failed, and then they tried to build a tree, and they sent it all over, they didn't keep records. There's no way to attack the indictment that I have seen
Yet, other than this issue we're talking about, about exculpatory or brainy material, or very simply put, information that's helpful to the defense that the prosecutor has, why they didn't download all of these things the Bureau did makes no sense.
If it's helpful to the defense, it has to be turned over. There will be a pretrial hearing on this issue of chain of custody and the use of DNA. And that will, you know, that will be determined because if that hearing goes the way I think it might, I don't know who the judge is. I don't know what his or her particular leanings are. But if the prosecution gets whacked on this issue, then there'll be either be a plea to
to a much lesser charge be a dismissal. But that issue will be decided long before trial. Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in a moment. Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty.
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The prosecution is likely to counter the defense's demand for the Othram and FBI's research at the June 27th hearing by insisting the only relevant DNA information for a trial is the buccal swab taken from Koberger's mouth when he was arrested at his parents' home and the paternal DNA sample taken from the Koberger's trash. Both of these DNA tests show an indisputable statistical match between Brian Koberger and the DNA on the knife sheath.
We know the DNA profile found on the knife sheath is at least 5.37 octillion times more likely to be Brian Koberger's than someone else's.
And that's a very big number, correct? It's kind of impossibly big to wrap your head around. We're going to do our best to kind of explain it in terms that we felt was helpful. 5.37 octillion is 5.37 followed by 27 zeros. And to put this number into more perspective, there are currently about 8 billion people living on planet Earth right now, or eight followed by nine zeros. It's estimated that about 100,000 people
109 billion people have ever lived on planet Earth. And that's 109, again, followed by nine zeros. A reminder, 5.37 octillions is 5.37 followed by 27 zeros.
So that's a tremendous number, and it seems impossible that it wouldn't be Koberger. Even the defense doesn't seem to be arguing that the DNA found on the sheath was Koberger's. At least they're not doing that yet. But what they are challenging is how investigators utilize DNA to conclude that it was Koberger's DNA on the ninth sheath.
So in this case, the only fact so far that we know of that the prosecution has to link this particular defendant to this awful crime is DNA evidence. That's it. And from what I've seen so far, that's not that solid. So...
You know, they'll show pictures of the gruesome slaying of these poor college kids. Defense will try to keep it out because they'll say it's too damaging and the judge will say, no, it's okay because it's relevant. That will all happen. But when push comes to shove, so far, we're talking about a case that hinges on DNA and we've all seen what preceded the taking of the final swab and the match. And I think...
I just think it's too early. You mentioned like the DNA is the big thing because we don't have any motive. I mean, there's no connection that we know. The defense is arguing there is no connection. That's the whole point. So does that matter? The prosecution does not have to prove any motive at all.
If they have a motive, it will be helpful. The lack of a motive will be helpful to the defense because they will argue that there was no reason for this particular individual. He didn't know them. There was no motive. There was no fight. There was no money issue. There was no girlfriend, no boyfriend, whatever it is.
There's a doctrine called mens rea in the law. And mens rea is very important here because the prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that not only did this guy take it and slash them and stab them and all this stuff, but he had an intent to do it.
He had a specific intent, specific intent, or what they say in Latin is mens rea, and then he's guilty of murder one. But they have to prove intent. They do not have to prove motive. And then, as I said, the defense will argue, well, you know, there was no reason for him to do it. Then the motive goes on that side.
One potential defense that Koberger's attorneys have yet to try to raise is a not guilty by reason of insanity defense. In many states, a defendant can claim insanity when charged with felony crimes if they show a lack of mental capacity. But Koberger's team can't make this argument. Idaho is one of only four states, along with Kansas, Montana, and Utah, that does not permit insanity as a defense.
The Idaho state legislature removed it from the state's criminal code in 1982 and passed a law saying that mental conditions shall not be a defense to any charge of criminal conduct. Steven Greenberg says even if Idaho did provide a legal path to raise insanity as a defense, it likely wouldn't work for Brian Koberger.
This guy was getting a PhD in criminology. He went back to school after all this happened, right? He went to class. So in order to succeed with an insanity defense, you basically have to show that the guy couldn't have had the mens rea I mentioned earlier, or the intent, because he was incapable of discerning right from wrong, okay? In some jurisdictions, they call it an irresistible impulse. But the long and short of it is, in layman's terms,
is if charged individual was so incapable of discerning right from wrong and didn't realize in any way what he was doing because of that particular status of his mental capability, then you don't have murder warrant because you don't have intent. Okay? So all this kind of, but I don't, unless there's something I've missed, I don't see this based on the behavior of this particular defendant as an insanity defense.
Though mental illness may be used in Idaho as a factor in sentencing, even if the jury finds Koberger guilty and sentenced him to death, his lawyers can challenge a death penalty sentence by presenting mitigating evidence as to why Koberger should be spared execution. Meaning, if Koberger is convicted of murdering Kaylee Consalves, Madison Mogan, Zanna Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin, then he could be spared the death penalty if he is proven to have a mental illness.
Kohlberger's own words as a teenager about suicide, depression, and his rare eye condition, visual snow, may come into play in the future.
However, Lata County Prosecutor Bill Thompson said in the court filing announcing his decision to seek the death penalty that the state had not seen any evidence of mitigating factors such as mental illness in Koberger or his family. Still, Koberger's lawyers could produce evidence of past mental health issues during the penalty phase if Koberger is convicted of the brutal slayings.
If you're not going to pursue the death penalty on a quadruple murder, what type of case are you going to pursue the death penalty on? Before Lata County Prosecutor Bill Thompson announced his decision to pursue the death penalty for Brian Koberger, he met with the families of the four victims.
While not every member of the victim's immediate family have spoken publicly, there is a divide over Thompson's decision to pursue the death penalty. Zanna Kernodle's mother, Kara, has said she doesn't support the capital punishment for Brian Kopeker.
In contrast, Zanna Kurnodal's father, Jeff, said he supports the death penalty for Koberger. You can never replace the loved ones that are lost, but having some sort of justice is what the González family wants.
While Madison Mogan and Kaylee Gonsalves' parents also support the decision to pursue the death penalty for Brian Koberger. Steve Gonsalves has been particularly vocal about his support for the death penalty, saying it is one of the reasons he moved to the state of Idaho. If you come after my child, I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure that we come after you.
Ethan Chapin's parents have not weighed in on the decision, even when asked. Stacey Chapin, Ethan's mother, has said she will not attend the trial and her focus is on her family and keeping Ethan's memory alive.
It doesn't change the outcome. Even looking ahead at the trial coming up in October now, it does not change the outcome of our family and its energy that we need to put into healing our kids and getting back to a new family dynamic and working on that. And so we let the prosecutors do their job and we do our job in our family. Let's stop here for another break. Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty.
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The split over whether or not to pursue the death penalty is not the only issue dividing the parents of Kaylee, Madison, Zanna, and Ethan. Meanwhile, work crews started preparing the house where the murders happened for demolition. In February, after Koberger was arrested, the University of Idaho announced it would demolish the blood-soaked house at 1122 King Road.
University President Scott Green called it a "healing step" in the wake of a crime that shook the community. The owner of the home donated it to the school, and plans were made to turn the lot into a park, with a separate memorial to be built on the University of Idaho campus. But now, with the trial of Brian Koberger set to begin on October 2nd, some of the families of the four murdered students are pressing the University of Idaho to halt its plans to demolish the three-story structure.
Here is the Gonsalves family attorney, Shannon Gray, talking to the Law and Crime Network.
A big piece of evidence that potentially a jury might want to see it. I mean, there's sights and sounds and viewpoints and angles. It's an odd-shaped house where witnesses were standing, where potentially the defendant was standing. The off-campus 2,175-square-foot home has sat empty ever since the brutal murders on November 13, 2022.
Today it is protected by a high metal fence and its lawn is covered in weeds and tall grass. Forensic investigators finished combing through the house long ago. Both the defense and the prosecution have said they are finished with the house, which has been flooded by a surge of true crime tourists who regularly come to visit.
The university and the neighbors want the house torn down before students return to school in August of 2023. But the family of Kaylee Consalves is urging the university to wait and say that the school is ignoring their request. And we've just stressed, just hold on, you know, wait till the trial is over and then do whatever you want with the property. But they just, they will not listen. And it's frustrating.
If they think that they're doing it on behalf of the community or the victim's families, it's not true. Stephanie and Jeff.
And in the same week that there were these legal fights over DNA evidence and the announcement from the prosecution that they were in fact going to pursue the death penalty, workmen began preparing the three-story house for demolition. They removed the remaining furniture and any other personal items that were left behind after the murders. And that's the end of it. It seems so strange that they wouldn't wait until after the trial.
Despite the prosecution and the defense saying they were done with the home, Kaylee's family was worried that the jury may want to see it at some point. They said publicly they wanted it left intact so the jurors could walk around the property to better understand the events of the morning of November 13th. The family wants the house demolished eventually, but they're afraid that if it happens before the trial, it may hurt the prosecution of Brian Koberger.
However, despite their concerns, the community apparently wants it gone sooner than later. According to Shannon Gray, Kaylee's family lawyer, the university basically said that we hear you, we get your concerns, but we are in fact going to move forward with the demolition because it's good for the community.
I understand the feeling of wanting this site of such a tragedy gone as soon as possible, but if even just one juror is swayed in either direction by seeing this house, then they need to leave it up. Justice is the number one goal here, and it seems short-sighted to potentially get rid of this huge part of the case forever.
We've seen this happen before. In fact, in our other podcast, The Pikedon Massacre, we saw that the homes where those murders happened were also infamously moved into a warehouse, which caused lots of controversy. Can you imagine if they had just torn them down? It seems like they would be destroying an active crime scene. And also in that case, the jurors all went to the location of the crimes. That was a big part of the pregame to the trial.
Yeah, Steph, that's a good point because as Koberger's movements on the night in question are very relevant, it stands to reason that the same sort of thing might happen for this case. The next hearing in the case of Idaho versus Brian Koberger is set for Tuesday, June 27th. Many of these issues could be settled after this important hearing, but the trial could also be pushed back to provide more time to decide these issues. And because Brian Koberger's life is now at stake.
More on that next time. For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kt underscore studios. The Idaho Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lidecker, Jeff Shane, Connor Powell, Chris Bargo, Gabriel Castillo, and me, Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design by Jeff Twa. Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Massacre is a production of iHeartRadio and KT Studios.
For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I'm Deanna, who you may know as Body Movin'. My friend and I, John Green, were featured in the Netflix documentary, Don't F with Cats. On our new podcast, True Crimes with John and Deanna, we're turning our online investigative skills to some of the most unexplained, unsolved, and most ignored cases. ♪
Police say 33-year-old Bridegan was shot dead. Gunned down in front of his two-year-old daughter. Detectives confirmed that it was a targeted attack. It appears to be an execution-style assassination. This is very active, so we have to be careful. I've heard that there's a house that has some bodies in the basement. I knew. I just knew something was wrong. Maybe there's something more sinister at play than just one young girl going missing. If you know something, heard something, please...
It's never too late to do the right thing. This is True Crimes with John and Deanna. The production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. Justice is something that takes different shapes or forms.
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