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This is The Idaho Massacre, a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. Season 2, Episode 3, In Class with Coburger. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Lidecker and Gabe Castillo. On November 13th, 2022, the murders of four young co-eds at the University of Idaho left senseless tragedy in its wake.
From the lives lost to devastated family members and friends to terrified students left behind wondering, "What's next?" But beyond that is what transpired in accused murderer Brian Koburger's orbit. We don't know if Koburger's guilt or innocence. He is presumed innocent unless otherwise determined in a court of law. What we do know is that the accused was a criminology PhD student and teacher's assistant at Washington State University, Pullman.
We also know that after the murders, up until he left campus in mid-December, Koberger attended classes. In an effort to gain a greater understanding of what happened during that time, Stephanie Lidecker speaks with a former criminology student in Koberger's class, Cassie. Cassie has never spoken out before, and we're withholding her last name to protect her privacy. Here's Stephanie.
There's been a lot of press about this case out there. So really our goal is always like less about the massacre itself and more about the human experience, right? You have such a unique perspective on that. So take me back to day one, how you got to that particular school and what you're studying and kind of even the first day of class. Are you a criminology major? Not anymore. No. Makes sense. Yeah.
Is that the event? Sometimes paths shift, right? So your destiny has been obviously wildly affected by this particular crime. So for obvious reasons. So yeah, just take me back to your experience at school and kind of how you made it to that class.
Alright, well, I thought about criminology for a while because it's just like, it's so interesting to get into. You get to learn about literally the criminal behavior of these criminals' minds and what works. And so I was also considering...
psychology at the time, which is now my major. I had that as a minor. But yeah, so the second week I remember going and he did introduce Brian and his other TA, I forgot his name, and then just kind of went into the details of the class. And this class was pretty big. I would say like 300 students. It was a lecture hall. So very, very big class.
Just for clarity, Brian Koberger, the accused, he was the teacher's assistant, right? We always call it a TA, but that's short for teacher's assistant, right? Yeah. So he was the teacher's assistant, their little helper while they're still in school, basically, just to get the knowledge. So to be a teacher's assistant,
kind of like a secondary teacher, obviously, right? They're a current student. In Brian's case, he was getting his PhD and was also working as a teacher's assistant in this particular criminology class.
Which makes sense. They help with grading and do they participate in class? They do. Usually it's when a teacher notices a kid doing up and above. So kind of like just doing all their work, just really like teaching others. That's just kind of like how they pick out the TAs, just who stands out to them. So Brian was probably a pretty exemplary student in order to even have that kind of a prestigious place.
Definitely. Definitely. Yeah, I think so. He definitely had some knowledge to get in there. And our professor was a very tough dude. So he, it had to take a lot for him to see something. In a statement, Washington University's Vice President of Marketing and Communications says that, quote,
Mr. Koburger received an appointment as a teaching assistant at Washington State University during the fall 2022 semester. It is typical for students to receive a teaching assistantship or similar appointment as part of their Ph.D. program, Wheeler explained. Here again, Cassie and Stephanie. What was the class about? We covered literally how to get away with murder. Like, we covered murder.
Pretty good basis because our professor at the time, he was a very, like, knowledgeable man. Like, he worked with judges and he was a lawyer for years and he worked with a lot of authority. So he wanted to teach it how he learned, which was case studies, like, actually living it. So we went into a lot of detail about...
criminal behavior, the behavior, why criminals do the thing. But this was more about cases. We would look over like a lot of cases and things like that. And we would go over the law. So a lot of just criminal justice things, a lot of lawyer and judge work.
Is there a part of you, because I'm still on the fence of, I really want to believe that Brian Koberger is innocent. He claims his innocence. I want to believe that because I like to believe that a human being couldn't pull that off. But again, I don't know him the way you do. Is there a part of you that thinks maybe he is innocent? There is. Yeah. I've had a lot of people reach out to me just bashing him. I
a lot of just like newspapers and stuff like that kind of just like oh like trying to get like every little scoop out of me to like make him out to be a bad guy but in reality like
this is someone's life that we're talking about and it's like his reality as well so it's there's a lot to take into like consideration there like why would you want someone to go through all that and do all that and to think that they would you know be capable of something like that like it just blows my mind how people are thinking about this case in retrospect what did he seem like
I remember walking in. Actually, he was pretty noticeable, believe it or not. But I walked in, saw him, and he just didn't say anything for weeks. He just like stood there fiddling with his cup. And when you- this class was like an hour and a half long, sometimes up to two hours, like it just depended. It was a very long class for him to just be standing up in the front in front of everyone. So when I was bored in the class, I would honestly just watch him
because I had nothing to do. I already like looked at the notes and stuff and so I would just like, there's nothing else to watch. - And did that seem weird to have somebody just standing there for an hour and a half? Is that normal or is that odd behavior?
With my other TAs, they're definitely like on their laptop and sometimes you would see him like go on here and there but never for like more than like 10 minutes I would say or he would just like sit down in front of the class or sometimes he wouldn't even be there, it would just be the professor. But compared to our other TA, he would be on his laptop. Our teacher would be asking him to go do TA things like, "Hey, can you pull up this lecture?" and stuff like that. I just never saw any of that from Brian.
Was he just also observing the class or did it seem like he was just staring off into space? Off to space, honestly. He would look up a couple of times, but honestly, just like in his own little world. And did he seem like he was interested in the content or like, you know, somebody you could see them and they look like they already know the information. So they're kind of just nodding along. Or was he kind of checked out? I would say both.
Most of the time when like he just he looked like me in that situation like he was just sometimes nodding here and there. I remember the professor trying to get his attention a couple times and it would take him a couple times like snap into it.
So here you are, you're in your criminology class. You're just observing 300-ish people around you. And yeah, you just sort of are looking at the people in front of you. So in this case, it's the professor and two additional teacher assistants. He's one of them. And did Brian Koberger and the other teacher assistant have any kind of a rapport? No. I think I saw them together in the class.
maybe one time but other than that they're either switching off or there was no tea at all let's stop here for a break we'll be back in a moment
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How would you describe him physically?
He had a very clean look, very always shaven, very like hair done. He was always wearing like sweaters and jeans and looked nice. He was tall, white, dark hair, very skinny, slim, slim fit. He just always seemed like he was just there, not interacting or anything, just there. You had said that he seemed noticeable at first. What was noticeable? The fact that he was
so quiet? I guess so. I would, I just wasn't what I was expecting when I first walked in the class. I, it was a lot to take in all at once. I feel like we were getting a lot of information and half the time my brain would just check out and just automatic eyes to him because he was the only other person down there. Did he have any friends?
Not that I saw. I mean, he was a very closed off TA. Some TAs like to share about their life and give us a whole PowerPoint and stuff. And he never saw that one from him. So I don't know much about his personal life, but very kept to himself. Anytime I saw him on campus or in class or office hours. Did you have office hours with him? Yes, it would be with a couple kids. I only went twice. Both times were unhelpful. So I left.
It's basically just like a time to ask him questions, to ask him about work, to do work with him, to need help on case studies, just anything like that. Or even studying for like a next exam or quiz. Those are what office hours are supposed to be for. But most of the time, it was just a bunch of kids kind of either doing group work together or just a quiet place like study or wherever. And he would just be like on his laptop, closed off like to himself.
Did he ever ask any personal questions to you? No. No, I remember like trying to have a conversation one time because I needed help with one of the assignments and it was just kind of like, "Well, did you review the work?" And I'm like, "Yes, I reviewed the work." And so kind of gave my attitude back, but it was, yeah, I don't know. After that time, I think I just didn't end up going.
So everybody wants to know the same thing, right? We all like to believe in our hearts that if we come across somebody who's violent or dangerous, that we'd get a spidey sense. Or people always talk about, I had a sixth sense. So, you know, kind of part of even why it's so important to talk about this stuff is, I'm so curious, did you have that feeling that he was capable or off? People have called him in the press very creepy in retrospect.
Or did he just seem like an ordinary guy?
To be honest, I never got any of those feelings. However, I do remember this one incident that happened when I went into class. And usually you sit next to like a different person every day. It's not like everyone's like buddy buddies. So sit down and the dude next to me, like straight off the bat when Brian came in was like, oh, doesn't he give you like weird vibes? And I was like, uh. And that's like one comment that since now I'm like, oh my gosh, like.
How did I get... He said something about his eyes. It was like in the eyes. And now that I'm looking at him, I'm like, yeah, I guess that makes sense. But me personally, no.
So like in the days leading up, so I would imagine it's just business as usual, right? Thanksgiving break is on the horizon. You guys are taking finals probably, or at least preparing for finals. Does anything seem out of the ordinary in the days leading up to the murders in terms of your experience with Brian?
I would say that before we even like heard, so there was like a time period of right when finals were happening and like right after. And it was straight A's, a lot of really good grades and good comments from Brian himself. But before that, it was not so good. Very harsh grading, very...
Not great. But and I talked to so many of my classmates and they're like, did you notice your grades go enough? And he would go in detail on my like work and like all my other classmates work about how good it was. But you can tell like the difference from before that it was like, no, like you need to fix this, your grammar, you know, all that little nitty picky stuff.
Cassie's experience with Koberger is not unique. It's been reported that former students have said he, quote, seemed preoccupied after the slayings and became an easier grader. But Koberger's change in affect wasn't the only notable thing. Here's more from Cassie. We also got a lot of complaints about
I personally didn't see a problem in it, but a lot of the female writers and all that, because we do a lot of case studies and we'd have to make reports on them. A lot of people just thought he was very sexist as a TA, especially in like one-on-ones. Apparently, like he showed just a lot of anger towards them in a way, which...
I never experienced that. So I don't know. That's just what I got from my other classmates. I had heard reports of that as well. Like, you know, there was a lot written about the fact that he did these like posts to prisoners behind bars or people who have committed crimes. Like he almost did this poll to see what their personality traits were like or, you know, when they knew it was time to kill or sort of, it seemed as though he was profiling people
murderers, right? To sort of better understand how their brain worked. And then the day, this hideous day happens. Tell me about that day. Honestly, it was just another day because when we all heard about it, we were very, we were very heartbroken, but we didn't hear from the school or anything. We just heard from like news. We didn't even know, like, it didn't even click that it was in Idaho at U of I until like maybe the next week.
like is when it like really hit me and my roommate and anyone close to me really like it just didn't register and then when everything started catching up over break and stuff is when it really just hit me and I was like oh my gosh like this is pretty close and then when I really started to realize is when I would get calls from out-of-state family and they'd be like you know you gotta get home like it's almost break like why aren't you there early and I
all that stuff and my mom and my dad my siblings just constant calls about you know get my ass home because it's getting a little scary especially when they hadn't like caught him and all that during that time there was a national manhunt it must be a very scary feeling to know that there is a killer at large frankly targeting beautiful girls like yourself in the same exact age group
It was pretty scary because everyone at WSU was wondering, what are we supposed to do? Because U of I had already set a curfew and they took precautions and they closed class for a couple days or something like that. They took their precautions, but WSU was like, no. They sent out an email. They were like, this has nothing to do with us. They were like, we...
send our love to the families, you know, they expressed that pretty well, but they were also like, this isn't our business, we will continue class, we will not have a curfew. And then to think that it was under their own roof is like, ugh, like, are you kidding? And for the people like myself and a couple other 100 kids who stayed when everyone else left, when they found out there was a murder on the loose,
That's terrifying. Like, he was like probably on campus, you know, doing his thing until he left for his break. And the fact that he was in class and still replying to our campus notifications. And I would get like, I remember looking at all the emails that he sent me after it all happened. And a couple weeks later, they were just gone. And I was like, oh my God. What does that mean? They were gone. Like they got removed from campus.
Yeah, so any canvas notifications I had from him, any... Because I literally remember looking through all of them and I was just kind of observing all of them and seeing if I noticed anything. And I had all of his little edits and stuff and then I went back one day to look at them and canvas had removed all of them. It was just very in-detail good notes about my work.
after everything happened. Very like, it wasn't short and sweet. So this man potentially murdered four people and then he went back to class and then he still continued to grade papers and maybe did it in a lighter, happier way? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
So, like, what do you make of that? Does that mean... I think he was definitely trying to, if it was him, could possibly, like, not be him. But I think if it was, he was trying to cover it up, you know, in a way, obviously. And that's, like, the first thing you do.
after it all goes down, you kind of want to act like nothing happened, maybe even make yourself seem a little bit better, maybe a more better guy than some of your classmates might describe you. You know, you don't want to hear about how you might be a sexist when you just
He killed like three girls. Like that's not, you want to, you're completely opposite of that. There were so many things that he did that just didn't make sense. If you were getting your PhD in criminology or criminal justice or whatever, why would you go the route of revisiting the place so many times and not checking your phone ping? That's one of the first things we learned in class, everything, how you get caught.
And so he already had this down, so it just- it doesn't really make sense why he would do so many things to jeopardize people catching him.
We were just reviewing this yesterday. So it sounds like he was pinged just to bring anybody up to speed. So his cell phone pinged about 15 times in and around the area leading up to the murders and then after. I can't agree with you more. It doesn't totally add up. That's so interesting to me that you really did study that. Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in a moment.
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Tell me everything you can remember about the days after.
The days after, physically, it was his eyes for me. They were very sunken and gray-black. It was like he hadn't slept in like days, maybe weeks. That's just what the appearance looked like, but I was number one to judge. I was like, "Okay, long night. We have finals coming up. It's okay." But yeah, that's one of the main things and I guess a lot of unshaveness and a little messier. And then right after you can tell the difference.
Can you describe what it was like to find out that Brian Koberger, your teacher's assistant, had been arrested and accused of the murders? Yeah, so I was in my dorm, in the Olympia dorm at WSU.
uh, with my roommate. And I remember we were looking at a case because it came out. She's like, oh, I'm gonna look at it. I was like, okay, yeah, just tell me I was cleaning or whatever. And she was like, holy shit, Cassie, like, it says criminology. And I was like, no way. And she was like,
you have to go on campus right now. I was like, why are you freaking out? Like she wouldn't really tell me at first. And then she was like, who's your TA? So I told her and then she was like, there's no way you're not going to believe this. And so we both started freaking out and
Yeah, that was the moment. And then she was kind of like, "I need to get the hell out of here." So she dipped a little early for Thanksgiving break. And yeah, I still just saved that extra week. So I was just kind of like sitting with that information. And I remember not wanting to go out because even before, I remember my roommate not letting me go out. Like anytime I'd be like, "Hey, like there's a party going on." No, you're staying in. You know there's a murderer out there? Very hard lecture.
about no going out and none of that, but it was just crazy. When he went to class, was he participating in any of the conversations about the murders? No, but we did discuss it in class. We did have, I don't remember if it was from the school or the class, but a lot of notifications I got from Canvas, you know, like discussing the murders, like kind of just like, hey, like everyone needs to stay focused, but this is a very troubled time, you know, whatever.
Just giving a reminder to like all the classmates, like stay focused. But we did talk about the case and we even like kind of went in details of everything that went down. I remember a lot of people asking questions about it. So like raising their hands and stuff. And there was a lot. So going around the room and our professor was just there answering the questions. And I don't remember seeing Brian in class when we did talk about it.
I remember hearing that he was, but I didn't really go to class after everything happened. It kind of took me on a, kind of hit me a little bit where I was like, this is getting a little too real. So I kind of stepped back from criminology and all that. You changed your major, huh? So like criminology is not your thing anymore? Yeah.
I will always have a special place in my heart for criminology, but I don't think it's my time. Or, you know, when everything happened, it just got so real. And I was like, this might not be for me because I don't know, I was just thinking too psychologically into it. And so I changed my major to my minor, which was psychology, hoping that leads to a better future with that.
It's very traumatic, and I'm super sorry that you had to even experience anything so close to something so disgusting. Did you have any knowledge or did you know any of the victims? No, I did not. I didn't know a lot of people from U of I. I knew a couple people who had friends who knew, you know, like friend of a friend. And so even then, it affected them in such a way.
you know, I could only imagine. And we did have a couple like memorial stuff, like a candlelit thing and a little other one to show our goodbyes and place like flowers and pictures of them and stuff like at the U of I statue, the plaque that they have. So yeah.
I've seen that. Yeah, it's pretty moving. Like even as I talk to you, I feel for your mom and dad because I would want you out of there. It was, it seems dangerous. You know, there's a part of us that all think, oh my God, it could be you, right? Like he could have been staring at you as a teacher's assistant and targeted you. What do you make of it? So now like over a year now behind you, what is your take on it? Is it possible? Like, does it track for you? Is it impossible that he could have pulled this off?
there is a very, very clear, like, possibility that he could have done this. And when you bring up alibi, that's very, like... It just almost makes sense to cover up, like, the missing pieces. Like, if only there was an alibi, it would all make sense. But there isn't, at least from, like, what we all know. So...
It's all still so confusing to say, like, if he did it or if he didn't. But there are just so many things that he did after, like the cell phone paying and all that, that just wouldn't make sense if he didn't do it.
So, I don't know. I'm kind of, I'm leaning towards did it, but I also hold a lot of sympathy still. I'm a very empathetic person, so not to say, like, what he did wasn't fucked up, but if he didn't do it, like, I still, like, I'm still holding that, you know?
And there was just so much that went into it. It was all just so much. I hope one day it just all gets figured out and can finally close the case. And the school now, is everything sort of settled down? Do people still talk about it? Is it not a big topic of conversation anymore? Yeah. When this hit, it was huge. Biggest thing that happened. But
Last year at WSU was a very crazy year. It was a very sad year for Pullman and then this kind of hit and everyone was like the whole Pullman's name was changed to "This is where it happened." And so it was just traumatizing for the entire school and even myself and a lot of people I knew. I even met people at the Vancouver campus because I'm at the Vancouver campus now.
who moved because of the situation. And I talked to like so many people at my campus now who just were like in my class sitting there, like in front of me now, who I never met, like explaining to me how hard it was for them to where they had to move because they couldn't like even be in the same tiny little town anymore. Like it didn't feel the same, which is just so sad to hear about. And yeah, it's just very sad year for WSU Pullman.
One last thing, I just got, like, covered in chills. You bring up such a big point that I think we should probably dive deeper in. He was only there for a year. And, you know, the victims have this, you know, kind of iconically...
fun looking life? Is it possible that he was just this outsider kind of wishing to have it or became obsessed with one of them and just lost his mind one night? Or was this just a perfect storm that was brewing and they were just the unfortunate targets and it could have been anyone? It's so hard to know.
They both could be, like, such possible answers. Crazy to think about. Yeah, the party life at both schools were both pretty big. If you weren't in the party life, it was, I can definitely see more of an outsider, like, standpoint. But then again, like, everyone was so accepting. If you would just walk up to any house, you'd be in a party. Like, no one would, like, kick you out or anything. Unless you're being weird, which could be the case. But, you know...
Very accepting schools, both of them. Very kind hearts. Everyone had a smile on their face. And even when tough times like this even, we still would have smiles on our faces. We'd take a break from schools and as a community, not even the school policy. We would all come together and be like, we're going to go to a memorial instead or we're going to hold this event for them. So yeah, it was a very good community to have while everything else was kind of falling down around us.
Just in closing, is there anything that we don't have right that just based on your experience, just in general, that people just have wrong? Before the situation happened, they kind of make him seem to be like this creep who didn't have anything for him going. But he was like almost done with his life. He was at his goal. He had so much of a future ahead of him.
And to say that he didn't, it's just straight out lies. It's not that he was like a weird outsider dude who didn't have anything going for him. He was there and gosh, I can't even imagine. That's all we wish for to get to that goal where he was. He just threw it all away, which is so sad. But either way, it's a very unfortunate trail of events that happened. More on that next time.
For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kt underscore studios. The Idaho Massacre is produced by Stephanie Leidegger, Gabriel Castillo, and me, Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design by Jeff Twaugh.
Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masker is a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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