Boots on the Ground
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Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, the host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America.

Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

For decades, the mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Ante marked the beginning of the end. It sent the message that we can prosecute these people. Listen to Law & Order Criminal Justice System on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

One of the community members told me, you know, Moscow will never be the same again. And when I heard that, it broke my heart. It's hard not to imagine the victims in their last steps, in their last meals. It's impossible not to be haunted by that. I'm sitting towards the back and then I see him walk in and then we locked eyes. This is The Idaho Massacre, a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. Season 2, Episode 10, KT.

I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Lydiker and Gabe Castillo. Stephanie and I spoke with veteran journalist Tanya Rashid, who traveled to Moscow and stayed there on and off over the course of eight months. Tanya has worked for outlets including National Geographic, Vice, and PBS NewsHour. We asked Tanya what drew her to this type of work.

I think part of the reason why I became a journalist has a lot to do with my exposure to extreme worlds. I was born in Saudi Arabia, and then we moved to Salt Lake City. So it's like one isolated place, Saudi Arabia to Utah, which is like totally polar opposites. So I feel like that has a lot to do with my curiosity for different worlds. For me, it's been a lot about

uncovering difficult stories, hard to access stories. And for the past 13 years, somehow organically my niche has become covering traumatized communities. I've covered famine, genocide, gender-based violence across the world and tragedy in our own backyard.

Tragedy in our own backyard. I feel like that brings us to, you know, the tragedy in Moscow, Idaho. When I got there, it was three months after and I

The community itself was incredibly just very afraid and not wanting to associate with any media whatsoever because after the murders, as you both very well know, there was a lot of press and internet sleuths just taking over this sleepy town. Part of me when I arrived there, I felt like I was in the 70s, like in a 70s film,

because everyone's just very hippie-tastic there. Prior to arriving, I was afraid because Idaho, I'm thinking, you know, being a brown Muslim woman arriving in this community, like what, how will they receive me? But, you know, Moscow residents are some of the kindest, most wonderful people that I've encountered.

And that was surprising to me. But yeah, when I arrived, I could feel the tension on the ground. And so that's like my first observation when I got to the ground that I really needed to take my time and get to know people in a very, very sensitive and mindful way.

When you did first touchdown in Moscow, can you just describe what was it like, you know, the energy of the community? Did that change or evolve as days went on? Well, I landed in Spokane and I drove two hours in the night. And as I drove, I noticed the rolling hills, the Palouse. And since I was driving at night, it was just kind of

eerie. And I had never been to Moscow before. So in my mind, I'm thinking, what am I doing? And I wondered, did the suspected killer drive down these roads? It's just like all these thoughts went through my mind. So that night, I had dinner at the Mad Greek where Maddie Mogan and Zanna Kernodle had worked. And having dinner there was also a very

unsettling and eerie experience. Shortly after that, I went to the corner club and I could just feel there was this tension you can cut through with a knife. So I arrived at the corner club, I had a drink and then I looked down at the table and I see a picture of Maddie, Zanna and the

Ethan and Kaylee on Under the Glass Table, that one famous photo that's all over the news. And I'm just like, it's something about reading it and another kind of feeling when you're just in the location and looking at their picture real time. I just thought, I'm here, I'm reporting, I just want to go to all the places and see what it's like. So that was my first night. But I will say, I was at the murder site quite a few times.

And there are ring cameras. Neighbors have cameras. And I do wonder if the police have taken them in and what they might discover next.

You bring up neighbors. I've seen certain people give interviews on the news or et cetera, because look, it was a house amongst many. From what we've been told, it's sort of a dead end street. You would be super intentional if you were going to that particular house, right? It's not on a major road that goes to someplace else. Yeah, that's accurate.

I mean, it took me a few moments to recognize it because the house was boarded up. The house is hard to spot, but once you're there, the neighbors and people immediately see you and they're not happy for you to be there. And rightfully so. And I wonder if the demolishment of the home had a lot to do with that, this constant reminder.

Whether you're reading about it or hearing about it on a podcast or seeing it on the news, it's very different than when you're actually boots on the ground. And it's hard not to imagine the victims in their last steps, in their last meals. It's impossible not to be haunted by that. Vicarious trauma is real. One of the community members told me, you know, Moscow will never be the same again. And when I heard that, it broke my heart because...

It's true, this case has totally changed the energy of this town and how people even engage with one another.

Tanya, I'm very interested to get into the fact of what it was like because you were there and attended hearings with the accused, with people we have now only seen on TV or in still pictures. And I'm reminded of when we were covering the Pikedon massacre and we went to several of the trials and I was there when convicted murderer Jake Wagner was there and

And it was so striking to me, just the feel in this courtroom. And there was nobody on the Wagner side. There was nobody on the accused side to support them. Not one person of support, not a family member, a friend, a reverend. Whereas Wagner,

On the victim's side, the victim's family were there, absolutely steadfast and just holding court in the courtroom on their side. So it was a really interesting juxtaposition. What was the feeling like? Can you describe what the hearings were like? The first hearing I went to was the arraignment.

And while I stood outside of the courthouse, I encountered this couple that came in from another country that were on this crime tourism thing. And that was their form of taking a vacation coming to this arraignment. And you know, Moscow is a really small town.

The organization of letting reporters, community members all into the courthouse was a bit of a, I don't want to say a mess, but they have never dealt with anything like this before. There's just this overwhelming amount of international, national news reporters, sleuths, and just everyone, and residents just wanting to see. And I remember I had to put my name on a list.

And then I went in and Koberger arrived in an orange jumpsuit and Ann Taylor, a couple of police officers, the judge, obviously. And then I look and I see, if I'm not mistaken, I

the gonzalves family were at the arraignment and shannon gray their attorney wait the arraignment is a big deal too is that the first time that mr gonzalves would have seen the accused brian coberger in the courtroom face to face

I would think so. I think so too. Then after the charges were read, Branko Berger's attorney declined to enter a plea and elected to stand silent. That prompted the judge to enter a not guilty plea. This is the interesting thing that I've been reporting on and I haven't talked about and I'm talking about with you.

is I walk out, I'm sitting in the hallway and there's about to be another hearing. I forget what the hearing was. And then I see the Gonsalves family just walk right past me through the hallway, just running. And they're running down the street and I look outside, I run out too. And I see all these cameras just running behind them, after them. And I was really unsettling to watch this grieving family

coming here you know to this hearing facing this situation and then

this overwhelming presence of intrusion, essentially. I see all sides of that. On the one hand, you have to go and you have to report on it. And it should make us mad as hell that these families have been put through it, right? We want to, again, support and rally around them. And that's the fine line. So now there you are. Obviously, the emotion in the courtroom has to be major. What was it like seeing him for the first time?

I can say seeing him in an orange jumpsuit and his face in real time made it very real. I don't know how to explain that. I'm sure you both relate. It just, everything just felt almost too real. And yeah, it was a tense moment because the families were there, community leaders, journalists, just everybody just there focused on this moment. And it went by pretty fast, honestly. The other hearing I went to, which was on June 27th,

It was interesting because it was the first time I had seen Koberger wearing a suit. I'm sitting towards the back and I see Koberger walk in suited and booted, hair gelled, just looking very put together. Quite the contrast from when I had seen him last in the orange jumpsuit. I'm sitting towards the back and then I see him walk in and then we locked eyes. It felt like

Like chills went down my spine. I felt gutted in my stomach. Those few seconds felt like a whole five minutes, felt much longer than the gaze. And when I looked in his eyes, there was this very blank, blank stare, almost like gray. But that's how I would describe it.

Was Brian Koberger's parents or his siblings or any family members present at any of the hearings that you can recall? No, I didn't see anyone from his family.

It's a tough one, right? On the one hand, you respect the privacy. They're under a gag order. Going to the courtroom is going to create perhaps more of a frenzy and open the door to more questions. On the other side of that, you would want to show support because by showing up, it is saying loud and clear, we do not believe these charges. Our son or our family member is innocent. And it's a confusing thing. You know, I don't have a personal opinion on it.

It's a really big deal to be in a situation where, and Courtney can speak to this as well, and I've been in courtrooms before with convicted killers. In your case, there has been no conviction. He claims his innocence.

And I don't think that can be understated. Specifically, Courtney, when she went to Jake Wagner, the accused Pike County murderers trial, we had been tag teaming and court, not to put words in your mouth, but you were visibly upset because you had, you know, seemingly locked eyes with Jake Wagner. And I was like, no, wait, what? You locked eyes? He did it. He said he did it. And we know he's

He's capable of murdering eight people. And we were shook if you want to share a little bit. Yeah, just his affect. This is a man who he helped coordinate and helped fuel his family members to murder eight other people, including the mother of his child, including the grandmother of his child.

And as he is telling the details of this, you know, meticulously and slowly, as you do during examination and cross-examination, the callousness, it wasn't even like describing a holiday event. It was more like describing going to the grocery store.

just the lack of feeling, and a lot was made of this in the press, and it really was the truth. He's smirking. He was smirking telling this, and it was just, it was deeply unsettling.

She came back and then I went to George Wagner's trial and Angela, the mother, who also at that point had taken a plea deal and confessed to plotting the murders of eight people she knew and knew very well and was going to now testify against her eldest son, guaranteeing him life in prison.

I like had to almost look down. I was petrified to lock eyes with her based on Courtney's experience. Did you notice if he, and I'm speaking of the accused now, Brian Koberger, did he have any reaction that you noticed or worth noting at any of the hearings that you were at that maybe we just didn't, we haven't seen ourselves? He walked in with his suit and tie. Ann Taylor was really well put together herself. She had

Her hair was blow dried and curled and she looked bold.

Both of them looked very put together, unlike the previous hearing where he was in an orange jumpsuit. And during the proceedings, she continued to say that her client was not a fishing expedition and she wanted to see what evidence the prosecution had against her client. So there was a lot of back and forth about that during that particular hearing. And she said,

quote unquote, we've asked for several things that we still need. So and those include cell phone investigations and what led the police to seek out a Hyundai like the one driven by Coburger. There was a sense of confidence

with Ann Taylor that permeated the room. And I remember going to the bar afterwards and I would just listen in on people just talking. And they'd say like, "How could she do this?" If he, if he like steps foot out of that jail, like he'd get shot in the head. I'm surprised he hasn't been shot by now, like one of the residents said. Like it was wild. Also like,

this very rural aspect to Idaho residents or Moscow residents. A lot of these men that I've met were doing physical labor, jobs that were very physically demanding and coming to the bar was just a space to let loose. And the bar is the spot for all the community folk coming together. There are trivia games.

all friends meeting up, college kids. It's just the area where everyone flocked to. Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in a moment.

Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Stories about regaining a sense of safety, a handle on reality after your entire world is flipped upside down.

From unbelievable romantic betrayals... The love that was so real for me was always just a game for him. To betrayals in your own family... When I think about my dad, oh, well, he is a sociopath. Financial betrayal...

This is not even the part where he steals millions of dollars. And life or death deceptions. She's practicing how she's going to cry when the police calls her after they kill me. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio.

I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. I've collected the stories of hundreds of aspiring little Hitlers of the suburbs, from the Nazi cop who tried to join ISIS, to the National Guardsman plotting to assassinate the Supreme Court, to the Satanist soldier who tried to get his own unit blown up in Turkey. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil,

They're just some weird guy. And you can laugh. Honestly, I think you have to. Seeing these guys for what they are doesn't mean they're not a threat. It's a survival strategy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America. Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

For decades, the mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Ante marked the beginning of the end, sparking a chain of events that would ultimately dismantle the most powerful crime organization in American history. It sent the message to them that we can prosecute these people.

Discover how a group of young prosecutors took on the mafia and with the help of law enforcement brought down its most powerful figures. These bosses on the commission had no idea what was coming their way from the federal government. From Wolf Entertainment and iHeart Podcast, this is Law & Order Criminal Justice System.

Listen to Law & Order Criminal Justice System on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

During your visits, did you encounter anyone who knew the victims or were in their circle and sort of could speak to them before when everything was, quote, normal? I went to the University of Idaho and contacted their journalism department. And it ended up being this really fascinating, organic experience where I

I engaged with the student newspaper, the Argonauts, the student journalists who were the first ones on the ground when the murders took place. And I can't begin to tell you how hard it hit them psychologically and just listening to their stories and how they covered this.

day by day, no sleep, not eating, just there. Can't begin to imagine what it's like to be a student journalist living through and reporting on such a tragedy, such a travesty. And one of the students was childhood friends with Zanna Carnolo. But for him, what was striking to me about him was how personal this is.

while also wanting to be a good journalist and tell the story the right way. So I would say that would be my most striking example of getting close.

to the story and people connected to it. I don't want to paint Moscow as a town that's just, yeah, it's forever changed in this horrible tragedy. These tragic murders took place. But at the same time, I'll see the resilience of the community. It's a very strong community. And with the students too, you know, they want to go on with their lives. And so the campus, while there was this somber energy, I would say there was also this

It's a bubbly college town. It's just very nice. It's wonderful.

Actually. Was there a sense when you were there during the time of these hearings, did it feel like in the town that wait, maybe this isn't the guy and like, we're still unsafe? Did it seem as though we look there could still be a killer at large? Did you feel scared? Or did it feel like it settled a little bit? A lot of the residents that I spoke to, they said that they think it's co-worker and there was a sense of ease.

Among many of them, the ones I had spoken to. He's not the word, but a sense of, okay, he's in jail. He's in the basement of the jail, which mind you, my Airbnb that I slept in at night faced his jail cell, which was an interesting way to sleep. So when I opened my window from my bedroom, I would see where he was being held.

So in terms of being afraid, I just wondered, oh, this is a small town and he's being held in this tiny little facility that seems really guarded up and protected. But still, there's like a little bit of there's an anxiety that rolls in when you're in such close proximity to this alleged killer.

What did it look like from your Airbnb window? From all ends, right? The Airbnb window and then I'd go do my groceries and I'd have to walk up the hill and pass by where he's being held. So it was a constant reality for me. Even the Airbnb host that I was renting from, she said that she was really concerned about the property value and if people would even want to stay there. And so

And so there's like this sense of like, you can sense that change as well. This unsettled feeling of the people who live near the courthouse. Yeah. Walking by there's, I notice a gate, like a fenced up gate. I think that's the open air area. That's what one of the community residents told me that the prisoners are brought out to walk outside and get sunshine. So he was being held in that area. Having been there,

What are people getting wrong? What do people need to know about the actualities? I think there is, you know, for the community, for friends of the victims, for those people, there's a lack of empathy in the reporting by the journalists or documentarians covering this case, which really puts off the residents to even want to talk to anyone.

And so the biggest takeaway for me was these victims, like who were they before all this? Like, what are the stories? And we don't hear enough of that. Honoring their lives, honoring their light, what they brought to the world, I think would do a great justice to the story. And I don't think has been done enough. I don't know if you had...

heard anything about Doug Wilson or the Christ Church down. If you care to comment, if you have a thought, if you observe anything. Okay. What do you know?

There's a podcast out called Extremely American. It's really good. It's about Christchurch and it goes into the details about Doug Wilson and all that. So in my reporting, not only did I go to the bar, to Mad Greek, to all the spots, I also went to a, I went to a Christchurch service and, uh,

Yeah, it's very interesting because it really kind of summarizes Moscow because there's this tension between the demographic that I really connected with, like these people who are just completely liberal. It's like the blue dot of Idaho.

And then this contrasting force, though small, I mean, like they're a minority, but still have impact because they bought, I think, 20% of the real estate in Moscow. Yeah, I went to their service and it was a very uncomfortable experience. I got very patriarchal, man, cultish.

I'm not in a position to comment further because I don't know enough about them. But what I do know is the Moscow residents that I did speak to and engage with were are just disgusted by Christchurch and their beliefs and what that I mean. Yeah. And Doug Wilson. There's a cafe that all everyone goes to. It's called One World Cafe. And I

I went there all the time. The students were there all the time. Professors would go there. It's just like when you go into that establishment, you know you are in, you're safe. And then they're like Christchurch establishments that are there too. And when I walk into those spaces, I'm like, this does not. That's such a good question, Courtney, because that's Moscow. It's these two extreme worlds somehow coexisting together.

together through it on top of tragic murders that took place there. Just the dichotomy seems fascinating and I had brought it up only because I'm really curious of the potential, depending upon if the churchgoers end up on the jury, what that will mean. I do wonder

what that means for the future of this case and what role they will play for sure. That is if the case is going to take place in Lake Tahoe County, if it is even. We don't know yet. Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in a moment.

Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Stories about regaining a sense of safety, a handle on reality after your entire world is flipped upside down.

From unbelievable romantic betrayals. The love that was so real for me was always just a game for him. To betrayals in your own family. When I think about my dad, oh, well, he is a sociopath. Financial betrayal. This is not even the part where he steals millions of dollars. And life or death deceptions. She's practicing how she's going to cry when the police calls her after they kill me.

Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask.

I've collected the stories of hundreds of aspiring little Hitlers of the suburbs. From the Nazi cop who tried to join ISIS, to the National Guardsman plotting to assassinate the Supreme Court, to the Satanist soldier who tried to get his own unit blown up in Turkey. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. And you can laugh. Honestly, I think you have to. Seeing these guys for what they are doesn't mean they're not a threat. It's a survival strategy.

So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America. Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

For decades, the mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Ante marked the beginning of the end, sparking a chain of events that would ultimately dismantle the most powerful crime organization in American history. It sent the message to them that we can prosecute these people.

Discover how a group of young prosecutors took on the mafia and with the help of law enforcement brought down its most powerful figures. These bosses on the commission had no idea what was coming their way from the federal government. From Wolf Entertainment and iHeart Podcasts, this is Law & Order Criminal Justice System. Listen to Law & Order Criminal Justice System on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

After this conversation, Stephanie and I got further interested in Doug Wilson's Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho. We wanted to look into it as a way to understand the backdrop of a portion of this community.

It's sort of an interesting juxtaposition that there is on the one side, this college town where there are students and it's very free thinking and liberal. And then on the flip of that, there's a really big portion of the town that attends this very specific church and their teachings are in fact very controversial. So we decided to do a deeper dive.

So the name of the church is Christ Church in Moscow and it's run by a pastor named Doug Wilson and his writings and his teachings really have received a lot of backlash specifically in the press and it seems as though for some good reason the church's teachings and Wilson's leadership has sparked a lot of resistance in the town of Moscow and

When doing our research, it became pretty clear that there had been some really scary allegations brought up against the church and the pastor, specifically some sexual allegations and reports of pedophilia.

It's a Calvinist church, and the mission, according to its own website, is to make Moscow, quote, a Christian town under God's grace. And this brought national attention to the town of Moscow. Just two months before the massacres happened, Doug Wilson was on Meet the Press. It had to do with the larger idea of the struggle between liberalism and Christian nationalism. So this was really a way to spotlight it.

since again the whole mission is to turn the town under God's rule. So in this case, Doug Wilson has come out and said, for example, there would be new rules and new laws like no gay marriage because it would be presided over by God's rules and not the government's.

Their teachings really are that women must be subservient to their husbands and that essentially this small town should be run by the church, meaning the laws that are either federal laws or even state laws would be dismissed.

and that the church would have their godly rule over the area. And speaking of, you know, the controversies that you mentioned, it's incredibly patriarchal. And not only does Doug Wilson, the founder and pastor of the church, but also there's a school that goes from kindergarten up through college. And people have since come out and said they have been groomed to be submissive as women and misogynistic language and teachings are pervasive.

and some have claimed that this has led to abusive behavior. In fact, several members of the church, including former deacon Alex Lloyd, who pleaded guilty to child pornography charges in 2022, they face arrests and convictions related to sex crimes. And in addition to pedophilia, as you had mentioned,

Doug Wilson wrote a book called Father Hunger. And in this book, specifically, he writes, quote, the sexual act cannot be made into an egalitarian pleasuring party. A man penetrates, conquers, colonizes plants. A woman receives, surrenders and accepts.

And look, how this ties into the massacre, we're not making any assertions that anybody related to the church has any connection to the crimes themselves. It's just an interesting backdrop that we hadn't heard about before and we wanted to explore. A lot has been written about the fact that this particular church is

20% of the population of Moscow are church members. And that has been reported in the press as interesting or potentially problematic when selecting a jury pool.

This particular church essentially grooms its members to not believe in law enforcement and to be weary of law enforcement. So now you're choosing a jury pool and invariably the numbers and the odds would be that if one fifth of the population is a member of this church,

that their teachings would not be in alignment with listening to proper forensics and police information as reported by first responders or Moscow law enforcement, for example. And there's a particular incident that happened that really...

brings that to bear. So this happened in September of 2020. So it is the absolute height of COVID. And the members of Christ Church had an event called a Palm Sing, and they gathered in front of Moscow City Hall without masks, despite mandates.

During that event, people were arrested for noncompliance of the mask mandate. So ultimately, three members of the congregation who were arrested, they went on to file a civil lawsuit for this arrest.

And the town, some argue that the town buckled and that instead of going forward with prosecution, the city settled outside of court and agreed to pay $300,000 to dismiss all claims. So that again makes people nervous that what kind of influence does the church potentially have on officials? And also back to your point of the jury, the church itself has said,

We can't and shouldn't be abiding by police. They don't tell the truth. Their laws are not our laws. And so how might that, in fact, change a jury pool?

We were curious if that was something that happened in other places or other churches. And the 20% population piece of it seemed really high when I first heard it. But we have done some comparisons. Again, not comparisons on religion. We're not weighing in on that at all. Just the idea of

a church or someplace where people gather, what the influence on the town that would be. Maybe it's not super uncommon. For example, top of head, I'm thinking of Scientology. I know they have a center in Clearwater, Florida. And my understanding is

The church itself has bought a lot of land in and around that town. Therefore, the businesses are also owned by Scientology. And the numbers in that regard are pretty extraordinary. Gabe, what are the stats on the Scientology Clearwater? As of April 2024, the church, Scientology in Clearwater, Florida, owns 68 parcels of land worth about $168 million.

And its presence in Clearwater has had a significant impact on the city, including property taxes, tourism, downtown revitalization. Which is interesting because if a certain church owns a lot of the land, I would have to assume that's controversial for tax reasons or etc., etc., etc. But in this case...

It seems as though the church is not buying up shops and locations in and around Moscow. It's just that this particular Christ Church has many congregants that live in the town, therefore they work in the town. And if they work in the town, of course, they're going to buy homes in the town. But it's not as though the Christ Church specifically is buying land.

But it does seem to be this really unique intersection and surrounding areas like Troy, for example, another town over. There is now some pushback on this because they really do feel that these opposing forces are not heading down the right direction.

And the distinction you make between the church itself owning land and the congregants is something that Doug Wilson actually put a very fine point on because it has been such a bone of contention. So here's something else that he posted on his blog.

Quote, I just mentioned our people building businesses. This is not something that is controlled in any way by the church. Our members are an enterprising bunch. Put another way, I don't own a chunk of downtown. The only thing I own downtown would be my truck when I'm there and the books in my office. So he's really putting a distance between himself and the businesses, I think, to help quell the argument that it is some sort of a...

takeover that's trying to be happening. It seems like that is the main goal. And perhaps unlike Scientology, my loose understanding is Christchurch and its pastor, Doug Wilson, want to create their own laws for the town that do not abide by state laws or frankly, even federal laws. And that's a really unusual thing.

mission. And, you know, listen, there's these extreme cases of pedophilia accusations, sexual abuse accusations, violence against women, the notion that they are grooming women to be submissive to their husbands and to be air quotes receivers. This is some fundamental stuff that has undertones of The Handmaid's Tale or one of those scary shows that I literally can't watch because they are too scary.

It's funny you should mention Handmaid's Tale because

It seems like Doug Wilson and or whoever is helping with his PR, they really use opposing arguments within their own arguments. So here's yet another thing that he posted. What about the Christian town part? If such a thing were to happen, it would happen quietly with no one really noticing it took shape. And then one day people would just wake up and realize the seal of the city had a church spire at the center of it. See above.

He is hearkening back to 1892 for the future of Moscow.

that definitely feels like an odd step backward. I think we should continue to dig into this because Doug Wilson as a figure has been quoted as being very impressive and very charismatic. And that even if you do not believe a single thing that he's saying, that he has a very influential way about him. And what influence does that have on this case?

But again, this is very uniquely different and kind of an undercurrent that people who have visited the area, as we've heard, this is really noticeable in the town too. You can feel it. It is a cross section that's happening right now that isn't going anywhere. It seems like it's only going to get worse. More on that next time.

For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at KT underscore studios. The Idaho Massacre is produced by Stephanie Leidegger, Gabriel Castillo, and me, Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design by Jeff Twa. Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Massacre is a production of KT Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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