Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, the host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm John Walczak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona. And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI.
In 2001, police say I killed my family and rigged my house to explode before escaping into the wilderness. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. Join me. I'm going down in the cave. As I track down clues. I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Hunting. One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world. Robert Fisher. Do you recognize my voice? Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.
Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America.
Welcome to The Pikedon Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio and KT Studios.
Four members of the Wagner family are in prison awaiting death penalty trials for the murder of eight members of the Rodin family. The four suspects are Billy and Angela Wagner and their sons, George IV and Jay. These four individuals are now in custody for allegedly committing this heartless, ruthless, cold-blooded murder. ♪
Two others have been charged with helping to cover up the grisly crime. Rita Jo Newcomb and Frederica Carol Wagner under house arrest connected to the killings of eight members of the Rodin family. The judge has set bond at $100,000. But
But while Ohio's largest murder investigation brings the alleged killers to stand trial, it also raises some unsettling questions about the victims themselves. There had been reports of scuffles with other people in public. There were indications that they were involved in some drug deals and drug trade. Law enforcement is yet to say if the extensive marijuana crow operation they found is connected
And now, two years after the arrests, the residents of Piketon, Ohio are conflicted about what really happened on the early morning of April 22, 2016. This is The Piketon Massacre, Episode 4, Alternate Theories.
In the last episode, we examined the motive that authorities believe lie at the center of the brutal killings of eight members of the Rodin family. A feud between Jake Wagner and Hannah Rodin over the custody of their two-and-a-half-year-old daughter, Sophia. Though it is important to remember that the Wagners are all innocent until proven guilty, there is mounting evidence to support the custody theory.
Still, nearly two years after the arrests, some residents of Pites in Ohio are conflicted about their guilt. You know, the BCI, you know, and the state of Ohio, poor county, they're not really wanting to spend a lot of money on it. Somebody did it, but it wasn't them. It just doesn't make sense to me if they are innocent, because who else would do that? I wish we knew exactly what happened. I know people kill people over custody, but not that many people
I think there's more to it. It's bigger than what people think it is. And I don't know if we'll ever get the truth about it, to be honest with you.
That's exactly what we're going to explore in this episode. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Lidecker and Jeff Shane. We worked on a documentary about the case back in 2019. One thing the three of us know for sure is that the Rodens did not deserve this. By all accounts, they were just a loving and caring family, and their loss is felt throughout the entire community.
And that's really why we want to bring not only them, but the entire town of Piked Injustice and hopefully shed a light on the crime and help bring everyone some sense of closure.
Following the Roden murders, it was two and a half years before the Wagners were arrested. In that time, many other plausible theories were put forward, and there are those who believe that some of them are credible possibilities. When we began researching the story, we kept hearing rumblings about two of the victims we haven't discussed much yet. The Roden Sons, Chris Jr. and Frankie.
From all accounts, 20-year-old Frankie was a wonderful man. He was a devoted father and excited about his upcoming marriage to his fiancée, Hannah Gilley.
Chris Jr. was just a few years younger than Frankie. Brittany, one of Chris Jr.'s oldest friends, talked to Stephanie about her memories of him growing up. When did you and Chris Jr. meet for the first time? How old were you guys? We were young. We were either in kindergarten or first grade. And you were friends from that day forward? Yes. We actually dated first grade. He was the love of my life.
What did the first grade version of you love about him? That he's a little bad boy. And that's how he always was. Like he was the guy that he's like, I know I have it all. Like he was that type of boy growing up. One of the things that kept coming up when we talked to people around town was the Rodenboy's love of Demolition Derby. Frankie and Chris Jr. were very passionate about Demolition Derby racing.
They spent most of their time building and rebuilding these cars to race in derbies all across Ohio. We spoke to journalist Jeff Winkler, who spent some time at derby races as part of his investigation into the Roden murders. Demolition Derby is, if you've seen it on TV, it's...
It looks like chaos to a degree it is, but it's, you know, raining into people. There's a lot of loud noises and there's a lot of concrete flying and there's fires and smoke and dirt and it's exciting and fun and people who love it, love it. The rodents were deeply involved in demolition derbies in the area. They're very much part of that culture, but demolition derbies are really intense. You're smashing each other. I mean, emotions get high.
Jeff told us about one derby that Chris Jr. and Frankie participated in in May of 2015 that ended in a bloody altercation. Based on what's been reported in the court documents, I think it's fair to say that Frankie and Chris Jr. I mean, definitely were hotheads and definitely got into fights here and there.
They had an incident with a fella named Tommy Gorman, who was a rival in the Demolition Derbies. They got into a bit of a sort of heated match, and there was, I believe, a sort of incident on the track. They got upset with each other, some bad blood. And then again, it's, you know, kind of picked up speed with Facebook posts about sort of insulting each other. And then, of course,
Chris Jr. and Frankie drove over to Gorman's house and proceeded to really beat on Gorman and his father. And the fights and beatings were only really broken up after the grandfather came out and pumped a few shotgun shells into the air. According to reports, the rodents showed up with a dozen friends and proceeded to brutally assault Tommy Jr. and even knocked out his father, Tommy Sr.'s front teeth.
In the aftermath of the fight, Frankie was arrested and sentenced to less than a year's probation for the attack. Chris Jr. was a juvenile at the time of the attack, and no court records are available about charges made against him.
Here's our producer Jeff Shane speaking to Jeff Winkler. And was Tommy and his family, were they ever looked at as suspects? Do you know? Did the sheriff ever interview them or see if they were involved? I mean, the press had talked to the Gorman family after hearing about these fights on Facebook. But as far as I know, the law enforcement never really approached them.
While the Gormans admitted to reporters that there was some bad blood between them and the Rodin family, it was not enough to retaliate and certainly not enough to kill over. In fact, the Gorman family were never suspects in the investigation, but there were more people to look into.
As our investigation unfolded, so too did the list of people who could have wanted payback on the rodents. Take Rusty Mongold, another local kid who had gotten into an altercation with Chris Jr. just two weeks before the rodents were murdered. Mongold had posted on Facebook that Chris Jr. hit him with a car. And in his message, you know, he uses some pretty tough language. I mean, Rusty was 19 at the time. And, you know, he's talking about, I'm going to
break his fucking legs and curb stomp his ass and I mean just sort of
sort of 19 year old bluster really the rusty mongrel thing happened just two weeks before the murders uh so i mean i think this was pretty obvious the investigators had to check that out and of course he got pulled over and was detained and even did a dna sample but um it was pretty clear that um he had nothing to do with it but you
But that kind of language is certainly going to grab the attention of authorities, especially after something like this. With authorities finding no clear link between Rusty Mongold, the Gorman family, and the Rodin murders, the feeling around Piketon was still ominous. No one knew who could be responsible for the mass murder, or even if the responsible parties lived next door.
Jeff Winkler fills us in on yet another incident that happened leading up to the murders. According to court documents on February 24th, and this was two months before the murders. So two months before the murders in late February, Chris Jr. was involved in a road rage incident with a 33-year-old woman named Rebecca Asher.
Here's what we know about this. Dana Roden, Chris Jr.'s mom, got involved as well, and Rebecca Allen ultimately got two years probation, 40 hours of community service, and a restraining order against contacting Chris Jr. and Dana Roden.
This was on April 20th, 2016, one day before the murders took place. There were definitely some scrapes, some posturing, and yeah, some social media threats. But is that really motive enough to murder eight people? Of course not. But the timing of it is interesting. You know, as we try to understand what's happened, it's important to know everything this family was going through up until the murders, because we don't know what's important until we know it's important.
But going back to Rebecca Allen and the Road Rage incident for just one second, Leonard Manley, Dana's father, who at this point was just trying to cope with the tragedy, was quoted in the news as saying that Rebecca Allen should be looked into with regards to the massacre.
Dana Roden's family, the Manleys, were deeply entrenched in the Rodens' day-to-day lives. And they were a key piece of the investigation at first. Bobbie Jo Manley, for example, she's the one who discovered their bodies and also made that first 911 call. Here's investigative reporter Jody Barr. The days after this, the 911 calls were beginning to be produced. So then you could get a picture of what happened that morning that, you know, a family member went into the first home and found
found the first two dead, Gary and Chris Sr. Okay, okay. I need you to get out of the house. Did you drive over there? Yes, I did. Okay, what's your name? Mommy, Bobby. Bobby? What's your brother's last name? Sam? Yeah. What's his name? Chris Rosen and Gary Rosen. Chris and Gary Rosen? That looks like the dad.
That was Bobby Joe Manley. You hear about James Manley going over to Dana's house, finding his sister dead, his niece and nephew. So you start getting some more pieces to put together in this puzzle. And then you realize, well, wait a minute. Why were they there? Police want to know that, too. We found out from Lynn Manley, that's Dana Roden's father, James Manley's father, that Bobby Joe Manley.
and James were both taken down into the Pike County Sheriff's Office and interrogated. So from the outset, when you look at that and you go, well, obviously they had two people in mind. These were the two people who made the initial finds of the bodies that morning and made those 911 calls. And then we had gotten word that investigators wanted to know who paid them to murder their own family.
Over the next few weeks, Bobby Joe Manley has questioned several times. These people are not only being looked at as murder suspects, they're going through the entire process. They're being interrogated. They're given polygraphs. I can tell you, I spoke with Bobby Joe Manley on the porch of her father's home, and she told me that she was given three polygraph tests and passed every one.
As the suspicion surrounding Bobby Joe subsides, authorities begin taking a closer look at James Manley. And it's not too long before they make a stunning discovery about who he talked to on the night of the murders. In the overnight hours at 2 a.m., this would have been just, for all we know, minutes before the murders, 2 in the morning. I mean, the bodies were found, you know, at sunup. But then at 2 in the morning, James was texting with Jake Wagner. Jake obviously now charged in these murders with,
We didn't know the context of those texts, but we do know that happened. And, you know, it's just strange suspicions. And then James Manley took a polygraph and failed that. We're going to take a quick break here. We'll be back in a moment.
Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories. Firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Stories about regaining a sense of safety, a handle on reality after your entire world is flipped upside down.
From unbelievable romantic betrayals. The love that was so real for me was always just a game for him. To betrayals in your own family. When I think about my dad, oh, well, he is a sociopath. Financial betrayal. This is not even the part where he steals millions of dollars. And life or death deceptions. She's practicing how she's going to cry when the police calls her after they kill me.
Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm John Walzak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona. And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI. Come on.
In 2001, police say I killed my family. First mom, then the kids. And rigged my house to explode. In a quiet suburb. This is the Beverly Hills of the Valley. Before escaping into the wilderness. There was sleet and hail and snow coming down. They found my wife's SUV. Right on the reservation boundary. And my dog flew. All I could think of is him and the sniper me out of some tree.
But not me. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. For two years. They won't tell you anything. I've traveled the nation. I'm going down in the cave. Tracking down clues. They were thinking that I picked him up and took him somewhere. If you keep asking me this, I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Searching for Robert Fisher. One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.
Do you recognize my voice? Join an exploding house, the hunt, family annihilation today, and a disappearing act. Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters.
But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. I've collected the stories of hundreds of aspiring little Hitlers of the suburbs, from the Nazi cop who tried to join ISIS, to the National Guardsman plotting to assassinate the Supreme Court, to the Satanist soldier who tried to get his own unit blown up in Turkey. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. And you can laugh. Honestly, I think you have to. Seeing these guys for what they are doesn't mean they're not a threat.
It's a survival strategy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America. Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Here again is Jody Barr commenting on James Manley's failed polygraph. I don't know what to make of that. You know, what that means, failing a polygraph, I have no idea because we don't know what questions were asked. Without sufficient evidence to charge him, James Manley is released.
But police continue to keep an eye on him. Something to think about is that no arrests were made after this questioning or the alleged polygraph failure. So it's not like the police found some sort of smoking gun that implicated him in the crimes. Furthermore, in the state of Ohio, polygraph examinations are admitted under limited circumstances in the court of law.
Plus, it's really not uncommon for immediate family members, particularly those who have discovered bodies, to be considered, air quotes, suspects at first. It's just a natural place for most investigations to begin. All that said, I can only imagine how difficult that must have been for the Manleys.
We found out later that, you know, he was, with some respect, a potential target of the investigation because we know that investigators put a GPS device underneath James Manley's pickup truck. And for whatever reasons, they felt a need to track him. And then James Manley finds that this GPS tracker attached to the underside of his pickup truck. He rips that off and then he's arrested for doing that.
This all happens in May of 2017, 390 days after James Manley's sister and her family were murdered.
He's charged with two felonies, tampering with evidence and vandalism. Both counts for removing the tracking device on his car. I can remember, you know, getting that news late, late in the day and driving straight to Ross County, Ohio, to the jail where James Manley was booked and, you know, being held overnight awaiting a bond hearing. But on the way there, you're trying to replay these conversations in your mind that
What were the scenarios that involved James? Why is there a GPS tracker on the brother of a dead family? I mean, this was hitting really close to home.
So again, every trip to Pike County was this cloud of suspicion and confusion. You wonder if they arrested him on those charges to try to just bring him in in hopes that they would then question him and he would admit to something murder related. You know, that was a suspicion. You know, it's like, man, where is this going to end up? You know, because this story is horrible and horrific enough. But six days after his arrest, the charges against James Manley are dismissed.
It's another dead end for investigators. Another leading theory at the time was the involvement with the drug cartel. The Rodin's did have marijuana growing on their property, and it was not just a few plants here and there in the window.
It was a lot. A law enforcement source has confirmed that investigators found some 200 marijuana plants on all of the properties. The same source said that the size of the operation indicates it was being grown for sale and not for personal use. And just to put that into perspective, each plant could produce around one pound of marijuana and a pound of high grade quality marijuana had a street value of around $2,000 at the time.
meaning that the rodents had in their possession $400,000 worth of marijuana. I think it's worth noting also that the unemployment rate in Piketon, Ohio is 115% higher than the national average. And I share that simply to say, by all accounts, the rodents were very hardworking people. And the fact that there was this marijuana grow operation in their backyard...
kind of erased the entire investigation, as if the rodent family was just a bunch of drug dealers who had it coming. And based on our research, that really doesn't add up. It should be noted that around the same time as the murders, marijuana was being legalized for medicinal use in the state of Ohio. So in theory, the rodents could have been growing the crop to be distributed for people who were prescribed marijuana legally to treat things like cancer and Alzheimer's.
Also, when Jeff and I were in Piked in the last time, somebody said something to us in passing, and it's always sort of stuck with me regarding the marijuana grow operation. On the one hand, if it was a small operation, how would that possibly constitute a drug cartel hit of this size? Four different locations. It felt very personal. Each crime scene seemed to tell a story of sorts. Not totally the MO of the drug cartel in our research. On the flip,
If it was a large-scale operation, they would have needed a lot of equipment, specialized lighting. And that lighting likely would have caused a bit of a surge in electricity that would have been noticeable by the electric company, number one. And number two, it also would have been very bright. Where they lived was a very rural road. It's dark. There's no streetlights. How would a grow operation of that size go unnoticed?
Yeah, and based on all of our research, if it really was the drug cartel, they would have killed the dogs and the kids. They leave no one behind. "I think it's okay for us to confirm that we did find marijuana in three locations. It's a grow operations."
Our producer Jeff Shane spoke to investigative journalist James Pilcher, who was in Pyton just after the announcement was made. That obviously fueled even more speculation that these were outside operators. Possibly was this a drug deal gone bad or was somebody trying to take over their turf? All kinds of rumors started to flow after that disclosure. So this idea that like a drug cartel being a potential culprit is,
It does sound crazy, this small town infiltrated by, you know, international drug dealers. In the middle of Appalachia in southern Ohio, you know? But if it turned out to be that, we would not have been surprised. Because Mexican drug cartels had done a lot of activity in southern Ohio, in Pike County, in Seattle County, and in Ross County. In fact, in August 2012, law enforcement officers found a major marijuana growth site in Pike County. It had suspected ties to a Mexican drug cartel.
During that raid, officials destroyed about 1,200 marijuana plants and found two abandoned campsites they believed belonged to Mexican nationals.
The main route from southern Ohio to Columbus, which is the next biggest city next to Cincinnati, cuts right all through there. So you have those people coming in and out. Now, were the rodents involved directly in the narcotics business? There were indications that they were involved in some drug deals and drug trade with marijuana.
The rodents had attack dogs, which again belies that all-American image, which means what did they have to hide? They had attack dogs, the security cameras. There was a lot of security at that place. They wanted to protect what they had. Now, does that mean that they were doing anything wrong? Not necessarily, but it certainly raised a lot of questions.
Journalist Jody Barr walked Jeff through the logic of the drug cartel theory. As the months wore on, no one has been arrested, no one charged, no people named as persons of interest. You really started to wonder, you know, maybe this drug cartel thing had, there was something to that. They definitely knew how to kill people.
You're looking for signs of a drug cartel, and then you find Kenneth Roden with what appeared to be a gunshot in the head, but that there were dollar bills or some sort of paper money spread around the body. Was that a sign? What did that mean?
You know, as a reporter, you're standing back trying to draw a conclusion or at least a lead from what this meant. I mean, what does that mean? There's a body lying there with money on it. So, of course, a drug cartel at that point in time, you couple with the attorney general announcing that they found commercial grow operations. It made sense. Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back in a moment.
Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Stories about regaining a sense of safety, a handle on reality after your entire world is flipped upside down.
From unbelievable romantic betrayals... The love that was so real for me was always just a game for him. To betrayals in your own family... When I think about my dad, oh, well, he is a sociopath. Financial betrayal...
This is not even the part where he steals millions of dollars. And life or death deceptions. She's practicing how she's going to cry when the police calls her after they kill me. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm John Walzak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona. And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI. Come on.
In 2001, police say I killed my family. First mom, then the kids. And rigged my house to explode. In a quiet suburb. This is the Beverly Hills of the Valley. Before escaping into the wilderness. There was sleet and hail and snow coming down. They found my wife's SUV. Right on the reservation boundary. And my dog flew. All I could think of is him going to sniper me out of some tree.
But not me. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. For two years. They won't tell you anything. I've traveled the nation. I'm going down in the cave. Tracking down clues. They were thinking that I picked him up and took him somewhere. If you keep asking me this, I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Searching for Robert Fisher. One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world.
Do you recognize my voice? Join an exploding house, the hunt, family annihilation today and a disappearing act. Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I spent almost a decade researching right wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters.
But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. I've collected the stories of hundreds of aspiring little Hitlers of the suburbs, from the Nazi cop who tried to join ISIS, to the National Guardsman plotting to assassinate the Supreme Court, to the Satanist soldier who tried to get his own unit blown up in Turkey. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. And you can laugh. Honestly, I think you have to. Seeing these guys for what they are doesn't mean they're not a threat.
It's a survival strategy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America. Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
The discovery of the Roden's Grow operation didn't just complicate the case and who might be responsible. It forced the residents of Pikedon to reconsider their feelings for the family. As soon as DeWine and Reeder made that announcement of the commercial grow operations, that appeared to change the entire public perception of these murders, the empathy for this family, and even the monetary donations that were coming in to help bury these people. All of that stopped.
There was a large reward put up by Jeff Ruby, a restaurant owner in Cincinnati, that was rescinded that day. The public support they were getting almost vanished that day. I mean, these were eight innocent people. And it sort of flipped it on its head that, you know, these were eight people potentially involved in some large drug operation. And then people seemingly just instantly stopped caring.
And, you know, all that momentum the family had of, you know, the public being interested in this by trying to solve it, taking care of this, you know, these kids who were left trying to bury these eight people. I mean, that's a large expense that vanished that day. And that was over as soon as that announcement was made.
However, those closest to the family never believed a cartel was behind the murders. Kendra Roden is Kenneth Roden's daughter. Kenneth was that eighth victim, the final victim found. I worked out an interview with Kendra and her mother at their home. And I mean, through that interview, we finally got a look at how close his family really was.
Kendra just going through her phone with her. She had pictures with Hannah. She had pictures with Chris Jr. She had pictures with Dana. Her father obviously was a large part of the photos stored on her phone. I mean, they look like a normal family. I mean, there was nothing in those pictures that would indicate that, you know, a week later,
eight of these people in these pictures would no longer draw the breath of life, man. You, you just, it was nothing to indicate that. And you're looking at these pictures and you're looking for some clue. You're looking for that sign from Kendra. When you're invited into her home, you saw none of that. I mean, it is, it was almost like, that's why it's almost unbelievable that it even happened. Because when you look at these photographs and you talk to these people, you're,
They're just like anybody else you'd ever talk to. A typical rural American family who rose to this notorious platform through the nightly news coming out and telling the world about their darkest hour. Eight people
murdered in their homes while they slept, children spared, covered with blood. And it's like you try to reconcile what you saw in those photographs and the story that Kendra Roden was telling about this family to the picture that you now have of them murdered in these homes, apparently involved in some sort of commercial drug industry. And then you try to put all that together. I mean, I don't know how the hell you figure that out. It was so confusing.
So if it wasn't a drug cartel, who was it? Let's shift our focus back to the Wagners for a minute. Could there be other motives aside from the custody dispute between Jake Wagner and Hannah Roden?
As we found out from speaking to journalist Jeff Winkler, there were more connections between the Rodens and the Wagners than just Hannah and Jake. Obviously, the families shared a grandchild together. So there was just a lot of interaction between the families. But as the investigation went on, you know, there was a clear sort of trail between Christopher Roden Sr. and Bill Wagner.
They had been longtime acquaintances, possibly friends, and also business partners. They were just, you know, some good old boy entrepreneurs.
Angela Wagner even had said to the press that her and her husband and Chris Sr. were longtime friends. Like they were, the Wagners were presenting them as close allies.
I think some of that was, of course, trying to sort of portray the family as not adversarial to the rodents. But they had something of a falling out before the murders. Attorney and legal commentator Mike Allen filled us in. Back in mid-April 2016, supposedly...
There was a fight between Chris Sr. and Billy Wagner that witnesses say ended with Billy threatening to, quote, "come back and finish them all," unquote. Nobody seems to know what the fight was about or what caused it, but these two families, from everything that I've seen, were probably not shy about taking care of business if they felt somebody abused them or their family.
So, could this all have stemmed from some kind of business arrangement gone wrong? Though we can't be positive, one thing we do know is that the detail of Chris Sr.'s autopsy seems to indicate that his death was much different than the other seven victims.
Here's James Pilcher speaking to Jeff again. Of all the crime scenes that day, like his was known to be the worst. Yeah, he was shot the most. First of all, he was shot nine times, possibly because he was trying to fight back, but possibly because, you know, the vendetta was mostly against him or he was the primary target, I should say. And then they positioned his body in a certain way and actually drug his body and
away from where he had originally fallen. So that gave investigators even more of an indication that this was personal. An anonymous Wagner family relative told Jeff that the situation between the Wagners and the Rodens was reaching a boiling point. This was just before the Rodens were found dead. I knew that they were the family's
Hannah, the rodent, and my family, they were fighting. There was a lot of tension there, bad blood there. But I never thought in a million years that they had anything to do with that.
to me, it's just, it's so overwhelming. It's a feeling that is almost indescribable. It's kind of like, you know, you don't know how to react, so you're constantly, at least I am, at this, like I said, like a tug-of-war with my emotions, my feelings, because I love them so much, you know, and I care about them, and they are family. That's your family. So, it's,
It's hard to just turn your back and be like, okay, well, you're a freaking monster, so I want nothing to do with you, and I don't love you no more, and I don't care about you no more.
So it seems like your relationship with Angela and her family really changed and never really was the same. Yep, it did. 100%. It was absolutely mind-blowing. I just couldn't picture it because I knew them as completely different people. You know what I mean? Like, I would have never pictured Angela being capable or the boys of any of that.
When we first heard about the rodent murders, we were shocked at the brutality of it all. And when we first got to Piketon, we couldn't believe that these murders took place in this community. But upon speaking to residents and learning more about the town, we discovered that the rodents were not the first murder victims who called Piketon home. You know, if you look back through the history of Piketon, there's quite a bit of things that just happen that, you know, there's no explanation for, get swept under the rug.
I don't know. I think there's just more evil there than just what happened to those eight. Pike County is beautiful. It's a beautiful place. But there's a lot of dirty people here, too. For the town that we, you know, the size of our town, there's been a lot of murders here that have not been solved. More on that next week.
Pikedon Massacre is executive produced by Stephanie Lidecker and me, Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design by executive producer Jared Astin. Additional producing by Jeff Shane and Andrew Becker. The Pikedon Massacre is a production of iHeartRadio and KT Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hi, it's Andrea Gunning, the host of Betrayal. I'm excited to announce that the Betrayal podcast is expanding. We are going to be releasing episodes weekly, every Thursday. Each week, you'll hear brand new stories, firsthand accounts of shocking deception, broken trust, and the trail of destruction left behind. Listen to Betrayal Weekly on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm John Walczak, host of the new podcast Missing in Arizona. And I'm Robert Fisher, one of the most wanted men in the world. We cloned his voice using AI.
In 2001, police say I killed my family and rigged my house to explode before escaping into the wilderness. Police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. Join me. I'm going down in the cave. As I track down clues. I'm going to call the police and have you removed. Hunting. One of the most dangerous fugitives in the world. Robert Fisher. Do you recognize my voice? Listen to Missing in Arizona every Wednesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.
Hi, I'm Molly Conger, host of Weird Little Guys, a new podcast from Cool Zone Media on iHeartRadio. I've spent almost a decade researching right-wing extremism, digging into the lives of people you wouldn't be wrong to call monsters. But if Scooby-Doo taught us one thing, it's that there's a guy under that monster mask. The monsters in our political closets aren't some unfathomable evil. They're just some weird guy. So join me every Thursday for a look under the mask at the weird little guys trying to destroy America.
Listen to Weird Little Guys on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.