Woj Retirement and Reasons to Watch the Bottom Tier Teams in the League
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And now, The Low Post. Welcome to The Low Post podcast on a Wednesday where, in one of the only times I can remember, the biggest NBA story of the day, of the week, maybe of the month, is not about a player, not about a coach, not about a team, not about a GM, but about a media member. Adrian Wojnarowski, who has spent the last almost decade at ESPN, a colleague of mine in that time, as our leading breaking news reporter,

Suddenly announced that he is retiring from media to go be the general manager of his beloved St. Bonaventure men's basketball team. And to say that this is a shock to the company and to all of us is an understatement. I didn't know it was a no inkling it was coming. No one I talked to today had any inkling it was coming. And it leaves a huge void for

at ESPN that we can't really even fill. And not only at ESPN, but in NBA media for the last 20 years, Woj redefined coverage of the NBA, how to break news in the NBA, what it meant

literally what it meant to cover the NBA. There is nobody like him. And he was always a great colleague to me and to everyone at ESPN. And it's just a huge, huge void that we are going to struggle like all hell to fill some. I don't even know how we're going to do it. A couple of windows into, into working with Woj that I don't think you would mind me mentioning into what, to the sacrifice of time and mental strain that it took to be him and

On a more basic level, it must be five years ago now, there was a player that I had a good relationship with the player and his agents who was going to get an extension going into his fourth season. And the player and his agents were like, hey, you know, you have a good relationship with this player. We're going to give you a chance to break the news, which I don't very often do.

And so I told Woj about it. He, of course, already knew that this was going to happen. He was like, that's cool. Great. You take it. You take this one. Great for you. So the day comes when this is going to happen and they call me and say, hey, I think it's probably we're probably it's probably going to break around this time range, like 12 to 2. And I look at my calendar. I'm like, oh, my God, 12 to 2.

My daughter has a birthday party, friend's birthday party, and it's a pool party. And at that age, she didn't really know how to swim. And my wife was unavailable. I don't know where she was like, I'm going to have to be in the pool so that my daughter doesn't drown at this pool party. I don't think I'm going to be able to do this. In other words, life intervened, actual life, not NBA life. So what do I do?

The only natural thing to do, call Woad, you'd be like, hey, you know, I know I talked about this, but I got this pool party situation. You know, what should we do? Just, no, of course, I'll handle it. I'll tweet it out. You know, whatever. I'll take care of it. Got it. Because it was just implied that life...

Would not intervene when it came to Adrian and his devotion to his craft to breaking news. Life could intervene for me, not for him. He didn't have that luxury. Maybe part of him didn't want that luxury. I don't know, but he didn't have that luxury. And like, that's, that's the time commitment thing.

that that job takes that I frankly couldn't do. But the job goes so, so, so far beyond that. You know, I was thinking about some of my favorite Adrian columns today, just in the, in, in the time, the brief, this is it's 1 30 PM about right now. So this is not, this is still pretty fresh news. And I always remember one from when he was at Yahoo from the end of the Tom Thibodeau era in Chicago, where he was just so plugged in,

to everything that was going on between Tibbs and Gar Foreman and John Paxson and the Derrick Rose injury and recovery and all of that.

And this detail is stuck in my brain almost 10 years later. And I'm just going to read the column. When a visiting scout visited the Bulls practice facility in the past year or so, he had the opportunity to watch the awkward, strange interplay between Bulls general manager Gar Forman and Thibodeau. This is Woj writing. Eventually, the man walked into the office of an assistant coach and asked, what the hell is the deal here?

Before answering, the coach turned his fan on full blast. For the visitor, everything was becoming even stranger. He gave the assistant a befuddled look as though to say, what are you doing? I'm not taking any chances, the coach said, refusing to risk the possibility of those walls being bugged. That detail is...

of an assistant coach under Tom Thibodeau worrying that his bosses were spying on him and as a result blasting the fan is such an incredible detail that nine years later I googled Bulls coach fan Woj Tibbs to find this column from nine years ago and to a non-journalist reading that story it's a cool story like wow he got there's a fan on that's a funny story

Here are the characters just mentioned in that small bit of reporting. Gar Foreman, Tom Thibodeau, an assistant coach, and a visiting scout. Those are four people right there off the bat. To get a detail like that,

First of all, you don't even know where the detail come from. It could have come from a fifth or a sixth person who heard it from the assistant coach who heard it from somebody else. And eventually it gets to you to get a detail like that, which to some readers to the lay reader is just a cool detail in a cool story, something out of a novel or something. That detail is the result of so much work of so much work.

gaining of trust and building relationships with maybe the people that are mentioned in that story, maybe other people who alerted him to it. All of it's just, all it is is time and work. It's being at the games and after the games, hanging around in the hallways and talking to these people, going out for a drink after the game, meaning for coffee before the game, all of it is time. And Woj in his farewell statement mentioned that,

Maybe there are something to the degree of maybe there are more meaningful ways to spend my time at this stage in his life, because all of that is time. All it is time away from your loved ones, from your family. And it all leads to knowing stuff like that. A detail that.

just stands out so much and is earned through not hours and hours but days and weeks and months it could take 10 coffees 10 drinks with each of those people to get to a point where you can a hear that b confirm it with multiple people c get the green light to write it anonymously as it as it is it's and that's why woj would always say the guts of all of this is reporting and

And that's the kind of stuff, and I can say this from experience, you get that kind of detail when your relationship with someone in the league goes well beyond the, let's call it the transactional, and goes to we have a shared love of this sport and this league and this craft.

And it's a shared love that we have developed and discovered over hours and hours and hours and hours of time. And your relationship reaches a different kind of level than it might with some other people that you don't spend as much time with or you don't have as much in common with or you don't feel the same way with.

And there's a million details like that in a million Woj columns, including a lot of ESPN recently go back and read stuff from various recent big trades that have come out, where people are, when, who they're talking to, when this conversation happened, some little tidbit. But that little tidbit, you could read that as a fan and just sort of scan over it. The work that goes into it is just, it sucks away everything.

from every other part of your life. And it is so earned. It's so earned a detail like that. The walls may be being bugged is just a really hard thing to get. It may not seem like much, but it's just, it's, it's everything. And Woj got that kind of stuff all the time. And, you know,

It's just the commitment, the time, the work, all of it. The Miracle of St. Anthony. If any of you have not read The Miracle of St. Anthony, pick up The Miracle of St. Anthony right now. It's been in my TV backdrop almost the entire time I've had a TV backdrop. It is a love letter to basketball and to basketball lifers. And it was written well before Woj was capital Woj. So...

This is a very short-winded and totally insufficient way of saying thank you to Woj for your time, your effort, your work, your devotion. And there is now a void at ESPN, which is going to be very, very hard to fill. And damn, people got to start worrying about St. Bonaventure because...

If he's all in on this job, like he was at ESPN, they're going to get some recruits. So farewell to Woj or farewell from ESPN anyway, truly a shocker that we are all kind of still digesting. And with that, let's get to Steve Jones Jr. to talk about some of the dregs of the NBA.

Alright, before we get into the meat of training camp in the NBA season when all the focus is going to be on the contenders, the elite teams, the teams with the ton at stake, I want to pause in this football-centric time, college and pro, to give some of the lesser lights away.

of the nba some love to instruct you fans of both those teams who might want to check out because they're going to be really bad this year in the cooper flag year or neutral fans looking for a reason to be like oh man the only game on at seven tonight is washington charlotte what is there to watch in this game we're going to tell you what there is to watch in this game we're going to pick eight teams that i am loosely calling anywhere from rebuilding frisky rebuilding unfrisky uh

Dormant tanking all the way to the bottom of the toilet in the Cooper flag year. And Steve Jones Jr., I know that you will be paying close attention to all these teams because you are a crazy diehard like I am. So you were the first person I thought of to talk about the Nets and the Wizards and the Pistons and the Jazz and the Blazers and other teams. We have eight in total. How are you, sir? I'm doing well. I'm happy to be here.

I'm glad this is my brand. I nailed this, but let's, let's get to talking about these teams. Hey, I've done a finals podcast with you. That's, that's, that's the biggest, brightest, best teams. And now I'm doing the anti-finals podcast with you. I was going to use a meaner term, but I don't want to be mean. I'm in a good mood and the world is, is already too mean of a place. I'm going to be nicer. Maybe I should be nicer this year, Steve. We're going to start in the East because there are more of these poopoo teams in the East than in the West where there are only two. Yeah.

I would, if I did the East in tiers, which I like to do levels, levels, there's levels to this. I would level it out like this.

Tier one, the Boston Celtics. That's it. They're in their own tier. I don't care that Porzingis is injured. I don't care that the team is for sale and who's going to get it. And I talked a lot about that with Bill Simmons yesterday. I think Steve Pagliuca is the leader in the clubhouse. That'd be good for continuity, but there's a lot left to determine there. Being the leader in the clubhouse don't mean anything. Tier two,

behind Boston. I'm putting Knicks and Sixers, and I'm going to grandfather in the Milwaukee Bucks, even though they were number one on my worry slash anxiety draft with Bill Simmons. I'm grandfathering them in. Giannis is Giannis. They get to go in despite the year from hell, a year of total chaos last year. Tier three,

Cleveland, Orlando, Indiana, and Miami. I'm grandfathering Miami. Miami gets the grandfathering treatment. I know everyone's down on Miami. You know, Jim Butler's situation is a little bit fraught. They're old. Who's going to start? What's happening? The Heat, how are they going to figure this out? Are they going to be able to pull another rabbit out of their hat? Never sleep on the Heat, Steve Jones. Jimmy plus Bam plus Spoh plus a competent supporting cast. They belong in a tier with these teams. But I will say,

one of at least one of Cleveland, Orlando and Indiana is making the second round of the playoffs this year. That doesn't sound like a bold prediction, but that means one of the teams in tier two will not. I don't know who, I don't know why, I don't know when, I don't know where one of those teams is breaking through the second round. Cleveland obviously did last year. Indiana got to the third round last year, whatever. Let's just call it a bold prediction. Tier four is,

I'm going I'm calling this the play in by default tier default default default the two sweetest words sweetest words in the English language I'm putting the Hawks and the Raptors in a tier by themselves and I think the Hawks are a little better than the Raptors not going to talk about the Hawks today I think the Hawks are solid

And then I have Chicago and Charlotte in a, what it may be kind of a little bit frisky. Who knows? Like maybe there'll be accidentally 10th and oh my God, we both owe protected first round picks that we'd probably like to keep this year. Do we want to kind of stay out of this thing? We'll talk about them. And then at the very bottom, I have Detroit, Washington and Brooklyn. So I will ask you,

A, is there anything you strongly disagree with in that tearing out any team you're much higher on and lower on? And B, in the spirit of the podcast I did with Bill yesterday, I just want your number one worry anxiety draft pick for the coming NBA season. No disagreement with the tears. I think they're all pretty fair. Don't sleep on Miami. I'm intrigued to see what Philadelphia does, how quick they can move up or if Milwaukee can move up quick, like who gets the accelerator boost.

I would probably say my number one concern, especially out east, what happens if the Milwaukee Bucks get off to a crazy good start and they're just very good and they can defend and they could score?

How do teams react to that? That's your worry? So you have literally the polar opposite worry. I'm worried about like, what if this is just it for the Bucs? What if it's over? I'm worried on behalf of the Bucs. You're worried on behalf of the rest of the East because of the Bucs? Because of the Bucs. I threw a curveball your way. All right, explain yourself. No.

But here's the thing. What is the reaction going to be if all of a sudden Milwaukee goes ahead and takes that lead? Let's say Philadelphia takes a little bit to get it together. New York takes a little bit to get it together. Boston, you have Porzingis out, but you should still be very good. How does that tilt now the other tiers if Milwaukee is very good? Do Cleveland, Orlando, and Indiana feel the pressure? Do one of them take a step back? I'm going big picture here. How does it move and shake things?

Are you, are you, so this is, this is where theoretical hypothetical, but are you Steve Jones? Are you bullish on the bucks? Are you like, are you on the people are sleeping on the bucks, writing them off too soon. This is still an inner circle championship contender, despite all the crazy of last season.

I think it's a little quieter than it might maybe it should be because of the season they went through last year. Now, I have very little evidence to support this thought, but if Dame and Giannis have a full year together, Dame will probably come in in better shape. Defensively, they've gone through every struggle you possibly could have last year. It can't be as bad as it was last year, and they still almost won 50 games. So...

I'm using a little bit of logic. Hey, what if they take another step forward? And what does that do? Go right out there. I've been trying to make the glass half full case about the Bucs to everybody I meet around the league, everybody I talk to around the league, everyone I go have coffee with in New York City around the league. And no one is drinking the glass. Everyone is turning the glass away as if someone peed in the glass and they don't want any part of it. And I'm like,

Well, Dame, year two seems better. More chemistry with Giannis on the pick and roll. More chemistry with Doc, who, look, the record was bad, but he at least got their defense under control, got their transition defense under control. Chris Middleton, yeah, double ankle surgery doesn't seem great. Like, one ankle surgery isn't great. Double ankle surgery doesn't seem great. But look, he was not healthy last year. Maybe he'll be healthy this year. He's good in the playoffs.

Brooke Lopez, still a solid defensive anchor. Gary Trent Jr., great minimum signing, one of three really nice minimum signings for them. Torian Prince, DeLon Wright. And they have Giannis. Giannis. Giannis, who's been injured the last two playoffs, I think coloring our perception of the Bucs. Giannis, still an inner circle MVP candidate who can fit with Dame, can fit with Middleton.

It's not that hard to talk yourself into it. I think the ifs and the age just pile up to the point that it's just too big of a hill for a lot of the skeptics to climb. But like I said, I'm grandfathering them in to the second tier of Eastern Conference contenders with Boston in its own tier. And until proven otherwise, but I like the optimism, Steve. I like it because it's hard to find people who are optimistic about the Bucs. It's very easy to find people around the league who are like,

It's over. Just move on. Start thinking about the next steps of the Bucs franchise, whatever, transition. So I'm happy to hear a little optimism. I tried to throw it out there. My alternate one was going to be the Philadelphia 76ers. What if the small ball thing doesn't work?

what if you don't have what if you don't have the shot making around what if what if martin doesn't stick what if it doesn't necessarily work how you want it to you're kind of tied into some version of switching defensively you need the spacing at a certain level i think you can't really switch when you have maxi and imbeed at the pole ends of your defense it's not switchable oh no not those two but like two through four two through four okay

And now you have the Maxie and B pick and roll debate. Now Maxie's put in action, so your switching doesn't matter. Like, conceptually, I have thoughts on potentially what could happen to the sixers. Okay. So that's about the four position, right? That's about Caleb Martin's small ball four. Gershon Yabusele coming back from Europe, small ball-ish four position.

I don't mind that. I just love their big three. If Joel's healthy, they're going to be awesome. Joel's health was, by the way, my number two draft pick in the worry anxiety draft, which is an obvious one. But, you know, it just makes me nervous that he gets hurt every season. And now that the injuries to the same knee are starting to pile up, that's what really makes me nervous. But knock on wood.

The guy was maybe the best player in the NBA last year when he was healthy, more than a point a minute. It was absolutely beyond insane what he was doing on offense. And they are more than most contenders armed to make a trade in the middle of the season to upgrade exactly what you're talking about. So I'm going to leave that worry to the side. Okay. Let's talk about, let's shine a light on the lesser lights of the NBA. There are eight of them, six in the East,

And I'm counting Toronto. I think Toronto may punch above this tier, but let's just because no one ever talks about Toronto. Let's talk about Toronto. Toronto, Charlotte, Chicago, Detroit, Washington, Brooklyn in the east, Utah and Portland in the west. We divided them up for...

Four for you, four for me. We each said we got to find one reason to sell people. I'm like, this is why this team that's probably in most cases, not all, not trying so hard to win this year, not on course to win so many games this year. This is why you should invest some time in watching this team. So I will let you go first. And I want to do the East teams first because there are more of them. So you can start us off with Detroit or Toronto.

Let's go with Toronto because I think they're, they're an intriguing team. Uh,

In the second year of Coach Darko, I think the selling point is not just Scottie Barnes, but can we actually see what the offensive vision is going to be for Toronto? Can we see what the payoff is going to be for adding more movement, having more handoffs, having more versatility, something that should allow R.J. Barrett, as we saw last year in flashes, to operate in better scenarios, should take some of the playmaking burden off Emmanuel quickly. They have handoff hubs with Yaka Pirtle and Kelly Olenek.

So it should be fun in the half court and having like more time together. They should be able to execute. So I think the weight of them playing with each other, Scotty Barnes being able to drive and kick and finish and his growth, RJ Barrett feeling more comfortable with the handoffs and the spots where he can drive and attack. I think that should be very fun to watch. And then does Emmanuel quickly after really kind of getting ready?

Not thrown into right into the fire, but can he now take another step with the playmaking when he's attacking space, when he's able to find his shot? If those pieces can start to fit together, now you can kind of get to the next step. And I think that that was kind of the fun of the second half or post-trade version of the Raptors. Well, I mean, look, they told you in their moves that they made in March.

In the OGN and OB and Siakam trades in aiming one, mostly in a rebuilding direction. That's the Siakam trade for which they got three first round picks. Two have already been used. One they traded for Ochai Ogbaji and Kelly Olenek.

And one that's still coming. And then the Ananobi trade was a non-rebuilding oriented trade, kind of a young talent oriented trade centered around quickly with RJ Barrett is kind of the price to take on quickly. And RJ Barrett came to Toronto and damn near exploded, like averaging 20 plus a game, shot it well, looked the part of...

Sort of secondary big wing can attack off the catch, can run a secondary pick and roll, can maybe play a little mismatch ball, played a little better defensively. That's that's the the area he can level up.

I think if there's a team in this group that we get to the end of the season, they're like, wait, wait, they're 500. They're around 500. I think this is the team. And I think they've telegraphed some hope that that's the team in the moves that they made. So like just as a, for instance, with quickly Barrett Barnes,

and Purtle all on the floor together last year was only about 200 minutes. They were plus 14 per 100 possessions. That's pretty damn good in a small sample size. The fifth starting spot, I think, is going to be up for grabs. I'll bet you they want Grady Dick to take it. And I think he's got a chance to do that.

And that leaves you with a bench of like Bruce Brown, Davion Mitchell, Ogbaji, Olenek. You probably stagger one of Quickly and Barnes to sort of have one fulcrum of the offense out there at all times. And by the way, I think Quickly and Barnes just scratched the surface of the two-man game they can run together in both directions. Quickly screening for Barnes in the more non-traditional one. I think there's some real talent here. All young. And by the way, I'm buying Scottie Barnes.

A lot of like, why did they rush to give him that extension? What has he done to earn the max? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm really excited about Scottie Barnes as a jack of all trades with major size and good vision and a jump shot that looked to make a mini leap last season. And defensively, he's got to dial in more than he has, but he has all the tools to do that. I...

Look, I don't know if I'm as bullish on Scottie Barnes as the Raptors higher ups might be who are like this could be a first, second team, all NBA stalwart for a long time. But I don't think it's crazy for them to believe that he's still very young.

I don't think this is a hard sell. I think this is a fun team. And if those City Edition jerseys that leaked yesterday with the old school Raptor dinosaur dunking between his legs like Vince Carter, if those are real, well, then that boosts their league pass ranking by like five points all by itself. And you got Jack Armstrong. Get me Johnny here! You know, one thing with the City Edition uniforms, I would just tell people,

imagine them as like hoodies and you'll feel better about them give me give me the purple dinosaur doing Vince Carter on a hoodie and I'll take it right away um I think do you think Emmanuel quickly has another leap in him as a point guard or is he going to be someone who just fills the gap for them scoring wise transition wise I think somewhere in between I don't think

I like Emmanuel quickly. I voted him sixth man of the year two years ago when Brogdon won it. I thought he was better than Brogdon that year. The shooting numbers would disagree with me, but I just thought his all-around play was a little better. I think he is...

A very is going to be a good player, a very good player. I just don't think that he can be the leap you're talking about is like, can this guy be the, the number one ball? Not maybe not the number one option, but the number one ball handler. Can this guy be like the 50 pick and rolls a game?

centerpiece of an offense. I think he's better served in the kind of role that Toronto sort of has outlined for him, which is do some of that, but also work a little bit off the ball. He's kind of a cagey off-ball mover. Bounce it to Scottie Barnes and then chase it, go get it in a handoff. Screen for Scottie Barnes, sort of hybrid distributor, scorer with decent size if he's the smallest guy on the floor, a good jumper, and some sort of creative herky-jerky guy

slitheriness to his game. I just don't know. I just don't think he has the passing vision or the size in this day and age of like your apex ball handler is almost always like six, six to six, eight with some exceptions like a Curry. I don't think he has the vision or the size to be,

Just indisputable number one ball handler. And I think he's with a right partner for that in Scotty Barnes, who does have some of what Quickly doesn't have in terms of size and probably vision. And his contract, Quickly's contract, it's a big number. But as the cap goes up, it's going to be like average-ish, above average starter money. Like I think...

So I've always liked him, but I don't, that's kind of how I would answer. What's your own answer to your question?

No, I think that's fair. I don't know that he will take that next leap, but I don't know how much he has to because of the way Toronto set up. I think that if he can understand when to take those shots, those pull ups, but also understand, OK, I can drag the defense out. I can hit a roller. And now that gives volume to when he has it and pick and roll and a drag. Now you put that on top of what Toronto likes to do with their movement and the personnel they have.

That's where I think it gets fun. So I think that's where the fun of Toronto is overall. I think it's a good context for a lot of their roster and for them to grow without necessarily feeling like, okay, I have to do this specifically. Well, they're also extremely well positioned to make a trade. First of all, they like all the guys they picked in the draft last season, Jacoby Walter, the Mogbo kid as a sort of a small ball five guy.

They have all their own first round picks, all of them, all the swaps, and they still have the one coming from Indiana. So and this is like, you know, they're not afraid to try some stuff in Toronto, depending on what opportunity arises. Barrett, to me, is of all the players we mentioned, he has three years left on his deal. It's, you know, mid to high 20s every season.

I think that's the guy that they have to decide sooner rather than later. Is he also a part of this core? Because if they conclude, yeah, I don't know if the fit's great getting off of him sooner rather than later, if that's the decision they decide to make, and I'm not saying it should be,

Knicks fans know I've always been relatively relative to the consensus a little higher on R.J. Barrett. But just getting ahead of that decision, I think, would be smart. They also have Bruce Brown's expiring contract. Chris Boucher's expiring contract. Both those guys are particularly Bruce Brown is a good bench player. I don't know. I don't think this is a hard sell. Yes. Let's go. All right. I'm going to get get us to a hard sell. The Washington Wizards.

How do you feel about the Washington Wizards, Steve? Do I need to sell you on this? Well, I am someone who literally will fall for the Washington Wizards pump fake every year. So I don't think you have to sell me too hard. I do believe you may have to sell the public a little harder. But I think especially having like Malcolm Brock, there's some talent there. There's something there, I think.

Well, they have, let's start with this. Here are three players that everyone should be excited to watch, especially wizards fans who have been craving this rebuild for so goddamn long. Just any alternative to the let's chase the eighth seed. Let's give Bradley Beal a no trade clause. Let's pretend that there's something interesting going on here. Um,

One of these players is for sure going to start, and that's Bilal Koulibaly, who I think... Well, I'll talk more about him. I went down a rabbit hole of Koulibaly film yesterday. Bub Carrington. I wouldn't say he lit up summer league because he shot 33%, but he did take a lot of shots, and he looks the part of combo guard with some size, a step back three, some creativity, and he's going to get...

A lot of opportunity this year. And of course, Alex Saar, the number two pick in the draft, who played the worst summer league game of all time, probably shot 0 of 15. I had to remind myself in summer league this season, Alex Saar shot 9 for 47 from the floor. 9 for 47. A lot of those were threes. Didn't go great from three. 2 of 17.

A lot of those were sort of adventurous. Like I'm trailing the break. Let me dribble into an 18 footer. Those didn't go great, but the face-up skills are intriguing. Like it doesn't, he doesn't look super awkward doing that. And his defense I thought was like pretty legit for a rookie big, like he's a real deterrent at the rim. I he's going to get some minutes at the four alongside Valanchunas and Marvin Bagley, a third who's on the wizards for some reason. Well, not some reason they got draft picks for taking them on. Um,

in addition to some minutes at the five, it wouldn't even shock me. It wouldn't shock me if he started at the four. Now, for me, if you told me predict their starting five, I would go Malcolm Brogdon, veteran stand-in point guard, walking trade bait. Jordan Poole, got to rehabilitate Jordan Poole, finish the season okay, we're going to start him. And that separates Jordan Poole and Bub Carrington, who are both going to be kind of

you know, like on the ball doing creative, sometimes crazy stuff. So Brogdon, Poole, Koulibaly, Kuzma, and Valanciunas. The bench is going to be not awesome. Bub Carrington, a very exciting rookie. Corey Kispert, who if you wanted to have a more stable starting five, he could go in there as sort of a roving shooter. I like Corey Kispert. That dude's good. He's a good...

seventh guy in the NBA made some strides on the ball last year. Catch, catch and go drives the occasional pick and roll. They love this guy, Sean George kid who they drafted. I think he'll get minutes off the bench. And then you have the Bagley SAR, Anthony Gill, whatever. I think that's just look, they're going to be very bad. They're going to try to trade all of their veterans. I mean, all of them, that's what they should do.

And bottom out in the next two seasons when they owe this pick to the Knicks, that's top 10 protected this coming season. No chance the Knicks are getting that pick top eight protected in 2526. Wizards probably going to keep that pick too. I don't think they're on course to make a huge leap two seasons from now.

But those are some interesting young players. And I would be interested to hear your take on Bilal Kulabali as a rookie. Remember, they traded up a spot to get him. So that was clearly Michael Winger's first big target as the head of the Wizards basketball operations. And we should mention Carrington. Carrington was a Portland draft pick, arrived in that Denny Abdiah for two first round picks deal. So that was also a guy that clearly Washington, because Denny Abdiah's contract was

is four years declining year over year down to like $11 million in the end. And he's young and he's good. And that contract is going to be super valuable. So two first round picks might sound like a huge return for Denny Abdi, a guy who most NBA fans probably haven't watched very much.

He's a really valuable player on that contract. And that amounts to... And we don't know that that second pick could be a lottery pick. It could be the 20th pick. We don't know what it's going to be. It's a big bet on Bub Carrington. But tell me about Kulabali. The thing that I really liked about Bilal Kulabali in his rookie year is he just...

I want to say fearless, but he just felt like he belonged out there. And you saw the drives that popped. I thought the finishing was pretty good and being able to mix in those threes from the corner. He just looked comfortable. And I think you can build on that and have that growth and have someone who can space, not afraid to shoot it from deep. If he can attack closeouts, that's even bigger. But I think the defense is really big, especially for this Washington team. Having someone who can defend those type of players, defend multiple positions, defensively,

that really helps. I think that's, if you're looking at building blocks for teams that are trying to turn the corner and rebuild, that's one of those people where you're like, okay, I know what he brings to the table. I know what else is there potential wise. And it's really fun. I think some of the passing ability kind of raised my eye last year, as far as when he was able to get in the paint and the defense collapse, he was able to make some of those reads. He wasn't afraid to keep the ball moving, which I think is a positive, especially on this Wizards team with some of the personnel that they have.

But if he can continue to mix that, they can use their movement off dribble handoffs, I think he's a big plus. I'm very excited about him. It is going to come down to the jump shot because –

Now, you mentioned they used him in some DHOs and some pick and roll on one side, pitch it to a screener on the other. Here comes Bilal sprinting into a handoff. That's hard for the defense to really set up against and go 10 feet under, which is probably what the coverage is for him. And then he gets a runway and he can go. But

But you watch film of him, and the thing that stands out is how many times he catches the ball wide open in the corner, doesn't shoot because he's not confident as a shooter, just kind of dithers around with the ball a little bit, and then drives into, if the defender is smart, a defender who knows the scattering importance, like, oh, I'm not closing out to this guy. I'm just going to wait right here. And so he can't get any momentum. He runs somebody over, or he has to just sort of pass it without gaining an advantage. But I'll tell you this, the thing that's most exciting about him

Offensively. Because I agree with you. His defense is going to be awesome. Is that when he does get momentum on those drives. When he does beat his guy and get into the paint. And draws the help. A, the passing you mentioned is there. Like great drop offs to the big guy. Kick out to the street. He's got all that. He's unselfish. He's a more explosive athlete. And a more powerful athlete.

Than I had remembered from two, three months ago when I last watched the Wizards. Like if he gets momentum, he's big, he's strong already, and he is really athletic. He can get airborne. He can take contact from bigger guys and finish through that contact. He has a little floater in traffic, even like a Eurostep floater that's kind of coming along. But it's the explosiveness that gets me really excited. And if you can combine that with...

He becomes a decent enough shooter that defenders close out on him a little bit more. Then you've really got a very interesting complementary player. And that's like at the perfect position and at the perfect size. Like I, I'm very excited about him. And Bob Carrington is just going to be a show like that dude is going to be a show on a bad team. It's going to be great.

To add to the Koulibaly point, it's something that I had down in my notes when I was watching the Olympics. Didn't happen a bunch, but there were some aggressive drives where he was not only looking to get in the paint, but also hit people first. And I was like, that's interesting. Like, if you're going to also have a little bit of force behind that athleticism, I'm intrigued. But I think if he can just grow into, I like to call him make a defense pay,

So where, okay, I can mix in a timely shot. My corner threes are better. I know my timing on my drives on closeouts. That's a plus for him. One of the benefits of having Valanchunas in Washington is you saw teams dabble with, we're going to put our centers on Koulibaly so that we can switch pick and rolls when Washington center is the screener. We don't care about Koulibaly. We'll hide our centers on him and they can rove Koulibaly.

Harder to do that when you have Jonas Valanciunas to post up smaller defenders. You kind of got to put your biggest guy on JV or he's just going to eat your lunch on every single possession. Okay, Wizards.

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This episode is brought to you by Allstate. Some people just know they could save hundreds on car insurance by checking Allstate first. Like, you know to check you have the tickets in your wallet first before you drive two hours to the big game.

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Okay, then I want to talk about Brandon Miller. Really excited about Brandon Miller. Just the whole package. Size, ball handling, shooting. Got thrown into the deep end on both ends of the floor last year. Guarded a lot of really good offensive players. I think he's going to guard well.

If you look at his pick and roll numbers on the tracking data, they're bad. Like inefficient, shoots too much, doesn't pass enough, too many turnovers, doesn't draw a ton of fouls. All rookie stuff. That's all rookie in the deep end on a bad team with bad spacing and no killer point guard because LaMelo Ball was out most of the season. That's all bad team stuff. You watch the tape, the feel is really there. Like he can be a little...

He can dribble a little too long and a little too much before the screen even comes and let the defense kind of get set. But when he just goes...

He's got most of the passes. I shouldn't say that. He's not a selfish player. If you blitz him and the center slips, he'll just hit that center on the roll right away. He will, off the dribble, hold the ball a little too long to the point that some passing windows close by the time he gets ready to make the pass. Rookie stuff.

Shoots too many mid-rangers? Maybe. Rookie stuff. Also, he's a pretty good mid-range shooter. He has crafty dribble moves, in and out dribbles, hesitation dribbles, both lefty and righty.

He shot 34% on pull up threes, which for a rookie is a really nice number. And he took a lot of pull up threes on the pick and roll against defenses who dropped. He's got that mid range game, both floaters and long two point jump shots. Not just one or the other is really useful when he drives against a smaller player. When he draws a smaller player on a switch, he doesn't have to post them up. He just kind of drive into them and shoot over them. Um,

I think there's a lot. He's active as a screener, too. Like he'll set screens and roll into open space, catch and make plays. The outlines of a really, really good all-star level all-around player are here. And you throw in, let's say the starting five is LaMelo Ball, healthy, Brandon Miller, just penciling in Josh Green, Miles Bridges, and Mark Williams, who's on my six most intriguing players of the year column.

Mark Williams only played 19 games last year. And on my bench, I got Vasily Micic, Serbian assassin. I mean, my God, in the Olympics, that guy was making one step back three after another. What the hell happened? What got into this dude? Trey Mann, Cody Martin, and then, you know, power forward. They got to figure out if the kid can play or not. But Grant Williams, Nick Richards, that's like, that's a you mess around and you

someone above you takes an injury, you're like accidentally in the 10th seed. And if you're accidentally in the 10th seed, you're at risk of accidentally making the playoffs in a year in which you owe a lottery protected pick that you probably very much would like to have. And you'd like it to be higher in the lottery than that. I would expect this team, if they are at any risk of surrendering that pick,

to try to go the other way at the trade deadline and make sure that they keep that pick and it moves up. But I think this is, look, I don't need to tell you about Eric Collins, the most excitable play-by-play announcer in all of sports, and the jerseys and the court and the teal and Hugo the Hornet. All that stuff is fun. I think this is going to be a fun team, especially if LaMelo's back. LaMelo's back!

And salute to Charles Lee. It appears he's going to make them play defense. We've heard this before, but he seems really focused in on the defense part. And I appreciate that. I think they can be a fun group if they lock in and get active. I think Brandon Miller, to your point, those reps were really key for him last year. And now we get to see if there's growth and that pays off. Being forced to handle multiple scenarios, I think was key.

How does he look off ball this year is a big thing for me because I think he showed a lot of comfort coming off of screens and coming off of handoffs and setting people up and knowing when to get to a shot there. You talked about the pull-up threes. I thought were huge. Can he continue to develop and pick and roll? I think it's the in-between stuff for him. That's the biggest key for him. Can he continue to navigate those areas? Because he's a willing driver. He will get in the paint. And now it's what are you going to do when you get in there?

Are you ready to initiate contact and maybe draw fouls? Are you kind of predetermining what you're doing once you get in there and maybe going into like a Euro step or when I get to my fadeaway or my pull up, can he finish through contact consistently? But as you said, the outline is there and he just has to continue to grow. If the handle gets tighter, that's going to help because if you shoot at that level, defenses are going to treat you a little bit differently. I felt like

You mentioned the passing. Sometimes when defenses gave a little more attention, the pick and roll windows started to close a little bit. It got a little interesting. Can you grow on that? So now the Hornets have a secondary playmaker and you can just go side to side. You got LaMelo initiating, you get a defense and rotation. He can now finish a play. I think that's where the fun comes. I think the, I think the Hornets are gonna be scrappy. I'm intrigued to see like what lineup combinations they try and go with at times. Like where does, you know, how much Josh Green do we see? But.

I like it. I'm glad you mentioned the off-ball stuff for Brandon Miller because LaMelo Ball is back. And so you're introducing a Super Bowl-dominant player back into the ecosystem. And you watched the film with Brandon Miller, a lot of his on-ball touches were...

Did already come off of second side action, catch a handoff on the wing when you weren't the primary guy orchestrating the play. Come off the screen like a pin down screen, catch and either shoot or go into your move. And he looked to your point, cut. He would he would approach a handoff, cut back door for a dunk if his defender took the bait. Like he's already pretty comfortable in that.

And I should have mentioned this 34% on pull up threes. Doesn't that's like 34% is below the league average for threes in total. That's a really good number for a rookie on off the dribble threes. That's a bit like you see guys, 28, 27, 34% taking tough pull up threes is really encouraging. It's a big year for the mellow ball. Steve to big, big year said that last year got derailed by injuries again.

I, where are you on the middle of all? He's electric. The playmaking is always going to be there. I think if he can understand what he wants to do against drop consistently, and he can consistently make a defense pay, that's where it gets really fun. But I, I worry sometimes, okay, is it going to be the attempted floater? Is the pull-up going to be there? And then defensively, are we, are we taking a leap? But I mean, there's,

He's getting downhill. He's going to play with the ball. He's going to make plays. Can that affect how a defense guards him and can that elevate the Hornets overall? I think is where our mind goes. I just cannot quit him as an engine of a good NBA offense because I say this over and over again. You just cannot find a lot of guys who are 6'7", can shoot a very nice percentage on very hard threes off the dribble.

And had vision like this, like one of the 10 to 12 best, most creative passers in the NBA. Now, is he something of a carnival act at times? Yes, absolutely. And he has to shed that carnivalism, that carnival-esque aspect of his game if the Hornets are ever going to get serious. But this is a team that's been in the play-in with LaMelo Ball. He's already proven to some degrees that

that he can be the number one option on a decent NBA team. Now, in at least one of those years, James Borrego often yanked him during crunch time or handed the crunch time offense to Terry Rozier. So make of that what you will. But I think offensively, he's got a lot of the package you need offensively.

It's just toning down the sort of just showy, like I'm just taking a pull up three on this possession, no matter what, because I just want to. And getting into the teeth of the defense, into the deep paint more with an intent to finish sometimes there, which he hasn't always had. As you point out, the floater,

Steve Clifford talked to me about like, and Lomelo did too last year before the season. We got the 15-foot floater, the 18-foot floater. We just got to get that out. Get that out of the game. Keep going to the rim. Keep prodding the defense. Keep prodding it to see what passes open up. And I thought, and if you look at the shot data, it's true. He was more diligent about that last season. His rim attempts went back up toward where they were as a rookie. And then he got injured and it all went to hell. Defensively, I mean, you mentioned make a leap.

I would just settle for like, just, just, just guard, man. Just like guard your dude. Like, just, just don't just do that. Just, just like, just guard your guy. Nothing fancy. Just guard your guy. Do your job. Yeah. Just do your job. Just like do the minimum. Just don't like ruin. Don't ruin us. Don't like jump over there and, and like ruin the whole possession for us. That's all. Um, being your help spot, close out on time, uh, to your drive point. I will say you, I'd said the numbers picked up.

I've it felt he felt more patient in those drives against drop to where I'm actually just going to attack this space and hesitate and see where you're at. And now if I can finish in turbo and go, I can do that. I would like to see more of that. I think if he does more of that,

he becomes a more complete player. It's, it's a weird thing to nitpick a great passer for passing too early, but I often felt that he passed too early. Like he would turn the corner on a pick, get to 19, 20 feet away from the rim, see the defender in front of him, the help defender, and immediately whip the ball to a shooter. Who's like not quite open, but might be open. If you took three more dribbles into the paint and drew the help more, uh,

Okay, take us to the Detroit Pistons. Sell us on the Detroit Pistons. The Detroit Pistons. The one thing I will add with the Detroit Pistons, I know last year was last year. It was a journey. Hopefully, number one, we are free from two big lineups. Please, crossing my fingers there. I think the Pistons had a nice little fun stretch in February, I want to say, if I recall correctly. Once they kind of had some pieces, they had some elements of shooting, they were able to get some movement in the half court.

They were able to go side to side. So Cade Cunningham in action, nothing there. Now we swing it. Now it's Jaden Ivey getting downhill. They have more of the pieces to use. I'm excited to see what J.B. Bickerstaff is able to implement because I think one of the underrated things about Cleveland last year was their movement sets and their ability to execute and kind of keep pressure on you, even in spaces and thoughts where you might not think they have it.

I think the big key for me is Cade Cunningham, and can he continue to make a leap? I know the numbers aren't necessarily kind to the shot, but he showed a comfort against drop defense, getting to where he wanted to, setting up screeners, turning the corner, getting downhill, adding in rejects. I think the Detroit Pistons have potential to be fun.

Now, I am very intrigued to see what kind of lineups they get to, what the combination is going to be. You add Tobias Harris, which I think is going to help them. I think he's steady. Someone who can go get his own bucket, can space. You don't have to force the ball to him. You found a lot of good stuff with the Sar Thompson at the four.

How many times can you get back to that and use him as a screener and kind of open up those drives and let him kind of roam as opposed to the moments last year where space in the corner, defense doesn't really care, skip to him, defense doesn't really care, those type of beats. You have Malik Beasley and Tim Hardaway Jr., which is shooting, but which one are you going to toggle and use? Marcus Sasser is really fun.

You're overusing fun in relation to the Detroit Pistons. I'm just going to have to say it wasn't that fun. They had a fun stretch. Disagree? Firmly disagree? No, I don't firmly disagree. One area we agree is I have never come off the Cade Cunningham bandwagon. I think Cade Cunningham is going to be an awesome NBA player. He...

The analytics have never been good in the NBA. The shooting percentages have never been quite where you want them to be. The free throws have never been quite where you want them to be for a guy who's big and strong and gets into the lane. All that stuff has ticked up. And I've just seen enough... Now, look, last year, there were too many turnovers. I don't know if he ended up leading the league in turnovers, but he was close. And some of them were just like...

What were you even trying to do there? Like, I don't understand where that pass was going or how you got yourself in jail with three guys around you underneath the rim and no one to pass to. But, A, let's just be nice and say the ecosystem has not been conducive to the best of Cade Cunningham emerging over his first three NBA seasons, which are really just two because he missed almost all of the second season with injury.

And number two, I've seen enough possessions and not just like, oh, in this game, I could find three possessions like this. In this stretch of 15 games, I can find dozens of possessions like this where it's like, oh, wow.

That's sophisticated NBA play. That's sophisticated NBA big point guard play. That's get into the lane, have one defender on my back, have the help defender in front of me, and that help defender is in a mental jail where he doesn't know if I'm going to shoot the floater, step back to shoot a mid-ranger. The guy in the corner is like, should I rotate? Should I not rotate? Oh my God, I got to rotate. The corner shooter's open. That corner shooter can't make any shots because it's the Pistons playing 19 centers together. But I've seen enough defense

good Cade Cunningham stuff, including powerful floaters and drives to the rim in that exact situation and great passing that I am in on Cade Cunningham. I am not in on Cade Cunningham as like super duper star first team all NBA guy. Don't get me wrong, but he got buried early and I'm in on him to like,

If he made the all-star team this year, I wouldn't be surprised. If you set the over-under on two-and-a-half career all-star appearances, I'm taking the over on Cade Cunningham all-star appearance. I think he's going to be a really good NBA player. The question is just everything around him. And my worry for the Pistons this year from an entertainment perspective is –

In trying to erase the humiliation of last season, the humiliation of 28 losses in a row, some enormous number of losses in a row, in the humiliation of Monte Williams sitting on a beach in front of a hotel that he probably bought the entire goddamn hotel with all the money that you're paying him for the next five years or whatever it is, the humiliation of all that, that there is too much...

veterans stability of Tim Hardaway Jr., Malik Beasley, and Tobias Harris, and not enough of specifically a Sar Thompson.

Ron Holland is TBD. We'll see big swing in the draft. We'll see how much he plays. Jaden Ivy is a puzzle piece that they haven't been able to figure out around Cade Cunningham. And I haven't been able to figure out if that's even workable. I like him better coming off the bench for this team and just like completely running the show when Cade's off the floor. And yeah, we got to finagle a few minutes of them together. Asar Thompson is too good to,

already at too many NBA things for him to get marginalized too much in his second season because of the fact that he's very bad at one NBA thing, which is perimeter shooting.

I just love his feel for the game. I love his competitiveness. I love his size. I love his rebounding. I love his cutting. I love his passing. And I would like to see him with two shooters, Tobias Harris and one of the other guys, Jalen Duren, who I'm very high on, and Cunningham. And I'm worried that they're going to lean like, well, we got to play these veterans because we can't just be so abysmally bad.

That would be a shame. That'd be a shame, especially if they didn't find those minutes for him at the four and allow him to kind of just have more room to be A, involved to showcase some of the skill set and B, use as a screener and not have to space and not have to just kind of hope for the best. So I agree with that. So do you think it's just Tobias Harris that's in the way?

No, I think Tobias Harris can shoot it well enough that you can functionally, Asar Thompson can play as a quote-unquote big with Tobias on the perimeter. I think it's more the...

Like I think Thompson Harris and a center can all play together. I think Fontecchio Thompson Harris and a center may get a little too big and a little too bulky. And I like, I like Fontecchio more than Beasley and Hardaway because of his size and kind of competitive defense and all that. I just don't want to start Thompson to get lost. You mentioned, by the way, rejecting picks.

Um, it's another thing I should, Brandon Miller is really, really good at that as a Brandon Miller aside, but look, the Pistons are going to be bad again and they're going to want to be bad. And they've been bad for five years in a row. I think this would be yours. Number six. It's been a long, it's been a long winter in Detroit. Any other Pistons thoughts? Jalen Duren and pick and roll defense. The leap I would like to see there as far as just the timing and positioning, I would like for him to set a screen and not slip every time. Um,

But yes, again, just please no more two big lineups, please. I think those are done. I think Isaiah Stewart's the backup five and that's it. And that's done. And that's fine. Isaiah Stewart, they invested 15 a year in him. That's actually like decent backup, big money. Like that's, that's fine. Make them a backup, big hitting people with screens, underrated skill,

And it's something I liked when I dove into the film on Mark Williams, the limited film that there was from last year. Because you think of him as a young, athletic, lob-catching leaper, and those guys generally want to get out of their pick as fast as possible. He'll hit people. He'll hit people, and he'll stick around long enough to make them feel it. And I like that. Okay, Brooklyn Nets. It's going to be tough. It's going to be tough. I like Noah Clowney. Showed some flashes last year.

Shot 39% on threes in summer league. You know who was the MVP of summer league? Jalen Wilson. I forgot he was the MVP of summer league. My brain decided not to remember that because it needs to remember other more important things. Look, I don't know who the Nets are going to even start. I penciled in Dennis Schroeder, Cam Thomas, Dorian Finney-Smith, Cam Johnson, and Nick Claxton. I'm worried, Steve. I'm a little worried. Maybe I shouldn't be worried. Maybe I should be excited.

I'm a little worried Ben Simmons is going to get in that starting lineup. I'm a little worried and I'm, I'm not worried cause I don't want to see Ben Simmons in a starting line, but if he's healthy, I want to see Ben Simmons in the starting lineup. I want to see Ben Simmons in the starting lineup, even if he still has free throw phobia and it, it ruins his whole game. Cause at least that's an interesting movie to watch for a little while. Um,

And the Simmons-Claxton thing has been a disastrous fit on offense for all the reasons you would expect. But then who does he start over? Do I have Dennis Schroeder and Ben Simmons both in the starting lineup? That seems a little redundant. There are veterans here who the Nets will and should try to trade. Finney Smith, who has a player option for next season. Cam Johnson's got three years left on kind of a big deal, actually. The bench is going to be a little rough.

A little rough. Boyan Bogdanovich is hurt. I don't know. It's a tough sell. Can Derrick Whitehead, maybe he plays this year. He didn't play much last year. Clowney is, I guess Clowney is the nerd selling point. He showed some real flashes last year as a rim protector. He just played some at the four and some at the five and his role on offense drastically changed depending on which one he was. I don't know. I kind of can't do it with this one.

Well, I'll ask this. Let me see if I can, can I flip your Ben Simmons starter worry and turn that into Ben Simmons, a six player, a six man of the year candidate, six man of the year. Just a thought the whole year, not the whole year. Just like for a brief two week spell. Someone says it. Look, I mean, hashtag big season loading. Like it's all happening. Um,

I keep just like, look, he's had surgeries. He hasn't been healthy. It all just comes down to free throws. If he's afraid to get fouled, the rest of his game is going to collapse around that fear or just have such a low ceiling on it because he doesn't want the ball anywhere close to the rim. And like, that's kind of a problem when you're six, eight and built like a tank and can run past and through everybody.

I'm all in for a Ben Simmons revival. I would love, I would love to see that. Um, I think this is going to be, I think we're going to get to February, March. This is going to be a rough watch all around. Um,

Some teams should be trying to steal Claxton. Claxton's good. Claxton's legit good, and he's become underrated on offense. He's not just a lob catcher. He's kind of a good passer. There's like some good – he and Clowney had some glimpses of big to big. Who am I kidding, Steve? This team is going to tank and be really bad. They got their own pick back in the McHale-Bridges trade, roping Houston, and just for this purpose, they're going to be bad. I don't know why. It's just like good for them. Cam Thomas hours.

Look, the guy can really score like he can really I don't know what to do with Cam Thomas because there are front office people who probably frankly don't watch Cam Thomas as much as I do because they have to watch college and international who are just blanket like no, not even for the minimum, not on our team, like can't have them. And I'm like, do you see the shots he can make? Like, and he kind of discovered passing a little bit last year. Yeah.

But I am worried that this team is going to be an excuse for him to be like, all right, I'm averaging 30 a game. Let's go. Like, roll the ball out. I'm just shooting it every time. New coaching staff, Jordy Fernandez, who I think is ready for this kind of job. It's going to be a long haul. It's going to be a long haul.

I don't have much else to say. Good trade, by the way. Good job getting their own pick back. I believe they still owe their 2027 pick to the Rockets, which puts a pretty quick turnaround timeframe on...

sort of bottoming out because I'm sure they would like to be a little better when that pick obligation comes due. And they are the free agency, you know, the free agency specter of this coming offseason. Maybe the only team that's going to be guaranteed to have a huge amount of cap space. So the ingredients for a quick something are here. But by the way, Zara Williams, who they got from Memphis, I've heard has looked pretty good this summer. He'll get a chance. So there's, you know, that's it.

For

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All right, it's time for the Chicago Bulls. That was another one of the teams on my list. Oh, you're excited to talk about the Bulls? A little bit. Why? I'm not asking facetiously because I'm not unexcited either. You know, they have growth from Kobe White and Io DeSumo and essentially potentially Patrick Williams and Matas Bouzelis was really aggressive in summer league. So I'm intrigued. I'm intrigued to see what you thought, what you're thinking. Yeah.

So look, we've all made enough fun of the Bulls. Okay, so let's just just just just posit that we've spent eight minutes making fun of the Bulls and their moves and their non moves and their semi delusion. So let's just posit that pretend just go listen to one of many podcasts where that's happened. Okay, come back. Here's the team. Here's their starting five. Josh Giddey, Zach Levine, Kobe White, the $90 million man, Pat Williams, and Nikola Vucevic.

Okay. Like, Zach Levine's still here. He's got to play, and they have to play him. And when he plays, he's entertaining to watch, even though if he's not quite the dunker that he was when he was maybe the best dunker in the entire league, he's still a pretty electric player to watch. Kobe White? Kobe White led the entire league last year in crunch time plus minus. Last five minutes of close games plus minus. Kobe freaking White. Now, will that sustain without...

Clutch time God, DeMar DeRozan? I don't know. We'll see. That's part of the fun of the season. That's, I mean, there are a couple of interesting things about this starting five. Number one, the Williams-Vucevic part. Vucevic is trending down, particularly as a shooter.

defender has never been great and is trending down. And Pat Williams has not trended anywhere at all for four seasons, has not really done much and has been injured a lot of it. If those trends continue, stagnation on the Williams end, decline on the Vucevic end,

That's a pretty stark lack of punch in terms of what you, the kind of punch you really need offensively from those two positions with Levine and Giddy and Kobe White. And the ceiling on this team defensively is atrociously bad. Giddy's a bad defender. Levine's a bad defender. Vucevic is a bad defender. White is undersized. Williams is fine, whatever. And the other thing is they just made this big investment in Josh Giddy. Now they haven't paid him yet. I don't know when that's coming or if it's coming, but,

But, you know, all of the narrative around the Josh Giddey trade, which I didn't love for Chicago, but I didn't think it was this colossal embarrassment and bad value play with Caruso. It wasn't great, but I didn't slam it because I think Josh Giddey is going to come in. The idea anyway was this guy could come in and average 28 and 8 right off the bat. And you'd look at his numbers in here and be like, wow, Chicago really did okay in that trade. But Zach Levine needs the ball.

Kobe White needs the ball. Vucevic is still, you got to feed him his eight to 10 post-ups a game and his pick and pop jumpers. Like is Josh Giddey actually going to get to be that guy on this team? And if, are they going to just force that to be the way, the way it is, or is there going to be sort of a feeling out process where it's, where he's for, for more of the game that he envisioned and maybe the Bulls envisioned, he's like off the ball in thunder mode.

I don't imagine it'll be thunder mode. I guess in my brain, I'm trying to consider Vucevic being used as a hub. Are we using Giddy off screens for handoffs? Are we letting him start possessions? And now we get to the second side. How does that operate? Or are you hoping like the initial skeleton of what you built with Lonzo Ball and some of the playmaking he had, Josh Giddy can just do that portion. Pace, the Lonzo pace that they haven't had.

So can he provide that element and that's what you've been missing? Or, you know, do you see more of a movement and more flow? Because I don't want to put it all on DeMar, but they had DeMar, they had Levine, they had Vooch, they had alternating ideals. Do you now have more of a concept where Vooch and Levine feel more comfortable with what they're going to get and now turn the corner, move it? Vucevic, willing passer.

Does that kind of operate to where, okay, Kobe White can now get downhill, Patrick Williams can showcase some of the flashes he had pre-injury as far as being aggressive. Is that the ideal for the Bulls? I'm interested to see how it shakes out.

I think Josh Giddey's a good NBA player, particularly in the role that Chicago has sort of envisioned for him as the undisputed, like you're the point forward, point guard, whatever you want to call them of this team. We're going to run and we're going to have shooting around you. And they do have shooting around him. Like all of those guys are,

Can shoot. Even Patrick Williams is a 40% career three-point shooter, low volume. Vooch can sort of, like Vooch can shoot from 19, 20 feet. The three-pointer has been up and down, but he's going to space the floor. Like there's space for Josh Giddey to exploit theoretically if he has the ball. I still think he needs to get, he needs, he's a very good passer. But as I said on a previous podcast, if he tops out as like the 10th best passer,

orchestrator, high volume orchestrator of NBA offense.

What is it? What does that actually get you? Because you're going to have to beat multiple of the nine above him in playoff series that could theoretically happen down the road. If he's the 10th or 11th best point, everything in the NBA, and that's where he tops out and he can't transition into a secondary role. Like if you get somebody that's better than him at running an offense and he can't still can't shoot well enough from three still doesn't defend well enough.

doesn't finish at the rim well enough. That's the big frontier for him that he quietly needs to really improve. He's going to make good on this trade that Chicago made. He's got to finish better at the rim, given his size. Then what exactly does that all amount to in the end? But there's an interesting player here. And then the benches, I would assume know who you mentioned was quietly really good in the second half of last season, much more aggressive offensively on the ball, off the ball,

Jalen Smith will be the backup five. Fine. Then everything in there is a mystery box. How much does Bozellas play? Dale and Terry, Julian Phillips, Torrey Craig is here. Chris Duarte is here. The team guy they got last year from overseas. I have no idea who's playing those minutes. And when you have no idea who's playing those kind of minutes now, obviously you stagger a little bit. Right. So like Levine or Kobe White is on the floor all the time.

I think some of those bench minutes could be kind of painful. They need some of those guys. Like, Dale and Terry was the number 18 pick in the draft. You know anything about him? If he walked by you right now, would you recognize him? I'd give him a head nod. Like, would you even know that it was him? I don't think I would. No.

And then, of course, there will be the ongoing drama of like Levine, the inevitable Levine and Vucevic. Like, can they actually get off of these contracts without paying through the nose to do it? And oh, by the way, they owe the Spurs their first round pick top 10 protected. Top 10 protected.

That's a tricky little protection level. Remember, Dallas had the top 10 protected pick that they really had to A, tank, and B, pray to the lottery coin flip gods that they got into the top 10 and got Derek Lively. Traded down for Derek Lively, actually. So I would expect Chicago to accidentally slash probably on purpose aim to keep that pick. But some interesting stuff here. All right, we're going west now. This is your territory.

Only two teams in the West qualified for this podcast, in my opinion, anyway. The Spurs are above it because Wimbanyama is so good. Portland and Utah, start us off. Let's go with the Utah Jazz.

Now, to be clear, when we divided the teams, I told you three of the ones I wanted and said, you can pick the other ones. And when you picked Utah, I actually sent you a thank you note specifically saying, thank you for picking Utah because I did not want this job. Well, here's what I'll say about Utah. They have been fun the last two years until they decide that jazz music stops.

The number one thing for me is just the offensive versatility that Will Hardy has this team playing with.

with their ability to understand their personnel, know they can do different things and allow them to do it. Like Larry marketing's growth is not just because he got a lot better. They use him in so many different ways. And so if you're going to allow a guy to initiate, come off handoffs, be a screener, work on the second side, you can run multiple guys off screens. The issue usually becomes Utah trades their talent and then they don't have the people that make that work and it doesn't work as well.

But if you want to look at a team that's going to operate and push in the half court and play together and play hard, the Jazz tend to do that. And I like the way they can flip and invert the offense. I like Keontae George as far as his potential to grow in this role. I think with the way Utah is able to

use their movement, especially having Colin Sexton with him, doesn't put the full pressure of him as a playmaker. I do want to see if he's able to grow in that area and understand, okay, when do I get downhill? When are my reads? Can he mix playing freely offensively with just making the right reads and continuing that way? I think if they're able to have the willing drivers to keep pressure on you, to force you to be in rotation, that's where Utah gets the most fun. And the other thing with Utah, so I'm 37 years old.

They have had a losing record at home twice in my life. Wow. 2013-14 and 2004-2005. That's it. They had a winning record at home last year? 21-20. Would not have guessed that. No, I mean, they do have a very powerful home court advantage. I just wouldn't have thought that they had a winning record at home last year. No, they did. So, I mean, give me the versatility of Laurie Markkinen. Give me Utah using that to their advantage. Give me...

I'm intrigued to see what they do with the bigs because they kind of have a lot of them. But I think they're a more fun team than people give them credit for, especially early in the year. Especially early in the year. I think fun versus good is going to be a distinction for me because, okay, so I'll just call it now.

I don't think Utah will have a winning record at home this year. So I'm going to chalk this up to this will be year three of the life of Steve Jones in which they don't have a winning record. And prediction number two, despite that I think Will Hardy is one of the best young coaches and maybe one already like a top whatever coach in the NBA, a really, really good coach.

I don't think they're going to do the same thing this year where they start off decent and then have to intentionally pull the plug. I think they're just going to start off not very good. Partly because the West around them has now gotten to the point where they're going to be underdogs in damn near every game they play against Western Conference teams. At least, you know, we'll see how the home lines work out. So I would expect their starting five to be Keontae George. Super high on his potential. Had him second team all rookie last year. Still a year two guard potential.

With sometimes a shoot first disposition, although he's a very creative passer. A year two guard thrust into a very, very large role on a bad team. That's a tough, tough, tough sledding. I think Colin Sexton starts at the two. Had a very nice season last year. Under the radar, very nice season. Let's skip the three. Lowry Markkinen at the four. Kessler at the five. The fifth starting spot.

I just penciled in Taylor Hendricks. It could be any number of people. If they go young like Taylor Hendricks, who showed flashes last year, particularly on defense, that's not a great lineup, particularly with the way Walker Kessler played last year, which was just okay and not as good as his rookie year. Then off the bench, I have Jordan Clarkson. Fine. Very good bench player. John Collins could be the backup four, could be the backup five.

And then I just don't know anything else after that. It's just a whole pile of young guys, some rookies, some journeymen, some young guys, some guys who came up through the G league and then drew you banks and Kyle Filipowski. And I just, that bench, you know, you've got Collier, Johnny Juzang, you know, Bryce sensible, who I kind of liked Bryce sensible. They're like, when you finally got in the rotation, I was just like, I see, I see what they're kind of old school smooth to his game a little bit. Um,

Cody Williams, who they just drafted. It's just a lot of question marks. And I just don't... I don't... I was...

I was wrong in my, we'll see if I was wrong, but when they, when they just extended marketing, I thought, well, I can't believe they're doing that without some other moves coming up because I just think they're going to do the same thing again, where they're too good for their own desires. Cause I know they probably want to be at the top of these drafts in the next couple of years. I don't think they're going to have to do much to be at the top of these drafts, which the next question is like, if that's the case, if I'm right, by the way, Taylor Hendricks, Larry marketing, Walker Kessler,

minus 25 and just 44 minutes all of last season. Um, doesn't mean anything. It's just trivia. Uh, if they are just bad this year, how long does Lowry marketing just be like, cool. The money's awesome. Like I like Utah. Like I'm cool. Just being on like, how, how long are we going to, we're going to do this. But that's my, that's my prediction for the jazz Steve Jones is that we don't have this like charade of a good team for a while and not, not charade. We don't have a decent team for a while. I just don't think they're going to be decent. Yeah.

The Western Conference is tough this year. That actually was one of my main, like, I wanted to say that as my biggest worry, like which Western Conference team is going to walk in and understand they're not as good as they think they are. But I was going to try and convince you on John Collins as the five and trying to get back him to back as a roller again.

I might tap on that. Why? Why? $26 million player option for 25-26? Like, they've got to figure something out with him because he has no trade value right now. It's remarkable from Hawks conference finals when I thought...

was a transformational couple of months for John Collins as a player. Bought into all the grittier winning stuff, rebounding, defense, had the shot work in, wasn't scoring like gangbusters, but did all the other stuff to help you win. To like, okay, I'm happy to have this guy on my team. Looks like he could be a winning player. And now he's just completely lost. And you'd have to pay, I think, to get somebody to take... You have to pay a draft pay to get someone to take this contract, which is even that big. Why are you giving up on this? Let's make him a rolling backup five and like...

Let's go. I think that's the, if they can get him back as a roller, get him back at the, like being someone who initiates a dribble handoff, not just space in the corner. It also helps because Utah will space Walker Kessler in different areas of the floor and then use them in different ways. So I think it's kind of fun if you had that dynamic of, okay, Walker Kessler space, but he might go into a handoff. John Collins in space, he might just shoot it. Cody Williams really intrigued me in summer league at times. I thought that was fun.

I think I wonder how much the strength has to go for him to really make a leap. But the Western Conference might make Utah be Utah earlier than they want to be. He sold me on that.

Well, I don't mean to say, I mean, like I'll still, I'm just saying, I just don't, I look, you know, every year there are a few teams that I sort of start writing down their rotation and who's going to play where and with whom, where I'm like, Ooh, they're not as good as I thought they were in Utah was, or they're better than I thought they were deeper than I thought they were in Utah fell into the, the former category. Wait, I have a question. So when you do that exercise, how quick does that list formulate in the Western conference? Of like, who's better or worse than I thought? Yeah.

I mean, it takes me a decent amount of time for each team. I don't know. It's a team-by-team thing. It's just when I start writing down names and rotations and slots where, oh, they're a little shorter here than I thought, or this is a bigger question than I thought. It takes like 20 minutes into my analysis of a team where I start asking questions that I didn't think I was going to be asking. The conference itself is like,

There's a reason I didn't do the tiers of the West yet. I just did here are 13 teams over here and two here because that's a tougher group of tiers for me. Other than I think Oklahoma City as a regular season team, as a regular season team. And I believe in them as a playoff team too, but I think they're in a tier of their own in terms of piling up regular season wins this year.

That's fair. I mainly asked that because I was looking at Portland's roster and I was like, there are things here. But then I was like, they're in the Western Conference. How much does this matter? And can it come together?

Well, that's by the way, Wendy and Bontemps and Kevin Pelton had that article yesterday about NBA expansion and the plans to either. I think they said twenty seven, twenty eight, you know, with Seattle and Las Vegas leading by far, I think, over Mexico City as the two teams that would come in.

And the ownership, the fight that's brewing for the Vegas team between a LeBron group and a Mark Lassery group, which has been talked about around the league for a while and all that. And those are two far at the end of the country Western Conference teams. Someone's got to move east.

And the fight, the fight after like 40 straight years or 30 straight years of the West generally being the better conference, the fight to get out of the conference, like, please just move. Minnesota's like, no, we need to move. Memphis is like, what about us? Get us out and get us into the easy conference. This is going to be a fun little subplot of expansion online. Okay, Portland, take it away because I don't disagree with you. I think there's...

There's real representative NBA talent almost up and down the full, like once you get down to 12, 13 guys on this team.

Yeah, that was one of the things that really spoke to me. I think they have a lot of talent, especially I think I really like adding Denny to this team because of the different ways you can use them. I think Anthony Simons has been a little bit better than people give him credit for. Obviously, the context hasn't been great. He's been out of the lineup. But as far as being more decisive in pick and roll, understanding his spots and scoring the ball, very good. Shaden Sharp is the person that I want to watch on this Portland Trailblazer team this year.

And I liked some of the growth from him last year when he was on the court. You can use him on ball, you can use him off ball. That's pretty easy. I think can he grow off ball is where I'm most intrigued. Like if he's coming off a pin down,

He's able to change speeds. He's able to start making reads. He gets some pick and roll. I think last year I really liked that he was able to turn the corner and just understand, I see you drop back there. I'm going to take my time. I'm going to tap the space. I'm going to go ahead and finish. I can also get to my pull up. I can also go, you know, very fast and dunk. If he's able to improve at making those reads and changing those speeds, I think that's a game changer for Portland as far as we now know how good Shaden Sharp is. We now know he can

I don't want to say be the piece, but he will be a piece that we know what we have with it, which I think is half the problem for Portland right now because you have talent, but you're still trying to figure out, okay, how good is Shaden? How good is Scoot? We know Anthony Simons is good, but how good is that for us? Jeremy Grant continues to get buckets and play defense. That helps to a degree. Like, that's what I want to see. Like, all right.

Do you start Shaden Sharp? Yes. I'm answering the question. Yes, you do. By the way, I liked the most tepid possible endorsement of Jeremy Grant being on the Blazers for three years plus one. It was like Jeremy Grant continues to get buckets and play defense, which is good to a degree, I think is what you said. That's the exact appropriate level of excitement for Jeremy Grant, Portland Trailblazer.

But I think if Shade makes that leap, it's fun. Now with Scoot, it's just, can he, I know the shot. Everyone wants to talk about the shot. I just want to see, can he get his tempo right? Can he change speeds appropriately and make those reads consistently? And can he just avoid the urge to hit the turbo button? Because, you know, he did have 20 and 10 games last year, but at the same time, we saw the results of some of the drives, some of the shots, some of the,

the over penetration into the defense some of the footwork which is you know I have space in a drop I'm thinking about a pull up but now I hesitate I go I can't get to my floater those type of decisions can he kind of get rid of some of those and just kind of go out there and play because they're going to need him to be one of those guys that goes on that next journey with him

There's mystery here, which is part of the fun. Mystery number one is, so what exactly is Scoot Henderson? Because we're not far removed from like, oh, did Charlotte really whiff here by not taking Scoot Henderson? To now it's like, oh yeah, Charlotte probably nailed that decision to take Brandon Miller. And there were games, there weren't games. There were quarters when Scoot Henderson for...

More than half of his pick and rolls in that quarter would hit the tempo that you're talking about, where he would get a defender on his back if that defender was unwise enough to go over a pick instead of under it or was just trapped in that scheme and slow down a little bit and read his options and make some really interesting passes. Now the obstacle is going to be every defense is just going to treat him like Rajon Rondo 15 years ago. It's like, go ahead and shoot. We don't care. Or Ben Simmons now.

And he's going to have to overcome that. And then there's the mystery of Henderson, Simon Sharp. Is that even viable as a trio defensively? Like, can we survive at all with those three on the floor? Because I think Sharp is in pen as a starter. I think he is the most interesting player on the team. I've said that repeatedly. I will not belabor it here. I think they're going to start Simon Sharp, Abdiya, Grant, Aiton, and give Scoot the bench lineup with some decent talent around him, like Thibel,

I like the Camara kid that they got from Phoenix as part of the Beal deal. Yeah, I think it was the... I don't know which deal. I think it was the Beal deal. No, that was attached to the Dame deal. I'm sorry. Time Lord, if he's healthy. And Klingon is super exciting. I think Klingon...

You know, they got to force feed him minutes right off the bat. He's got to be the backup five. I don't care what that means for Robert Williams or DeAndre. And what it really means is they should start trading these guys and probably will, because I think this team is self-aware that they need another crack at the top of the draft and another

chance to get lucky in the lottery but there's some real talent here i i'm i'm legit like this is not fake i'm legitimately excited to watch blazers games this year because i want to see how all these mysteries get unraveled and i think shade and sharp with him it's a motor thing it's you talk to people who were around the blazers last season and it's how did you get 30 yesterday

and five today. And it didn't even look like you cared that you got five, like because he has so many tools and he's not a selfish player. He's a decent passer. He could score from all three levels. He can really shoot. The percentages don't show it, but the catch and shoot percentages do. I'm very excited for Shaden Sharp. So, you know, the Blazers are an easy sell job to me, even though they could be 15th in the West this year. Matisse, Thibault, and Tumani Kamara defense. I definitely want to see that as well. I am. DeAndre Ayton,

It's time. Time for what? I was high on him. New place, new fit. It's an interdisappointment. There's something about him. Because I used to be, I was like you. This guy has a lot of tools on both ends of the floor. And yeah, he doesn't get to the foul line ever. And that's kind of annoying. But his leap on defense was a huge reason Phoenix made the finals. He has touch and skill on offense. Can pass a little bit.

And yet he just leaves everybody a little cold. Like there's just something there that doesn't click all the way. And it doesn't help probably that he talks about himself as dominating and I'm a max player and I've proved it and like, just okay. Just chill out with that. Maybe, um,

But I don't know. I mean, he's got, I think, two years left on his deal. I don't know where the DeAndre Aydin trade is at this point. I thought that was a worthy bet for them, and maybe it still will be. Like, he put up numbers last year. Yeah, a stretch at the end of the season where he was like a monster. Anyway, anything else you want to say about any of these teams or any other point that you were dying to hit here on the Low Post podcast? My other number one worry is me when people say Victor Wimbanyama is the most improved player.

Because you're going to be upset about that? Yeah, a little bit. He's already very good.

So, you know, so, so, okay. I'm just going to play devil's advocate because I did not, I'm more of the mindset of like what all NBA team is Victor Wimonyama going to be on this year? Like, is he going to crack some MVP ballots? So you just, so there, there is a school of thought that that kind of leap from like, well, he wasn't an all-star last year, but let's give him like a backend all-star status to true star is one of the hardest leaps to make. Sure.

Should we not like people have made arguments in the past three, four or five years for like Luka Doncic, most improved player, Joel Embiid, most improved player. You're anti all of that, particularly for the number one pick, I'm guessing. Correct. Is that going to be a thing? I don't think that's going to be a thing. Hey, hey, we'll circle back in the spring when it happens. Who won it last year? I'm already blanking out on who won most improved player last year. Oh, yeah.

Remember when John Morant won it? I didn't vote for John Morant. Were you mad about that too? Yes, because I called it. It was Tyrese Maxey. Last year was Tyrese Maxey?

I did not. I don't think I voted for Tyrese Max. Maybe I did. I don't remember who my fake vote went to, but my fake vote the year John Morant won went to Desmond Bain, his teammate, because I thought he was a more fitting descriptor of the award. That's what I'm talking about. Steve Jones, the dunker spot. What days are we on now? I'm always late on my listening, so I don't know what days people need to look for you.

Tuesdays and Fridays. Tuesdays and Fridays, and we're doing a heavy dose of WNBA with the playoffs coming into focus. The Liberty just clinched the number one overall seed in the playoffs. My New York Liberty, I'm claiming them. They're my local team. So a lot of NBA season just around the corner. Listen to the Dunker Spot with Steve Jones and Nikias Duncan. Steve, thank you, sir. Thank you. For the first time, Monday Night Football streams exclusively on ESPN+.

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