What's Going on with the Raptors and Hornets, Banchero vs. Barnes, Bucks Update, and Westbrook to Denver
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And now, The Low Post. Welcome to The Low Post podcast where the offseason is dying down. Even Vegas Summer League is dying down. And it is time, as promised earlier this week, I had Kevin Pelton on for part one of my WTF Are These teams starring Portland and Detroit and Atlanta. I gave him the picks out of a slew of teams and he left us with Canada's team. The only team in the NBA that represents an entire country, the Toronto Raptors, and

And the Charlotte Hornets, kind of a forgotten franchise, new ownership and all that. We're going to talk about them. We're going to talk about a whole lot of other things. With the first-time guest here on The Low Post, if you've been paying attention to the NBA for the last 10 years, you know his writing, you know his voice, you know his background. Seth Partnow, author of The Mid-Range Theory.

Former director of basketball research for the Milwaukee Bucks. You might have heard of them. NBA champion Milwaukee Bucks. The current, what is your title? Manager of NBA modeling at Penn Entertainment. You've been on the Athletic Podcast a million times. Seth Partnell. By the way, buy the mid-range theory. It's very good. How are you, sir?

I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. And one correction there is you did actually have me on once before with Bobby Marks about four years ago. What did we talk about? I think we ended up talking a lot about Kyrie Irving because that was when he went on sabbatical kind of from the Nets for a minute.

Sounds like a fun episode. How are you this morning, Seth? I'm doing great. I mean, aside from the fact that it is morning 10 in Las Vegas and you always play the fun game in these days of waking up in Vegas is like, do I have COVID or have I just woken up in Las Vegas?

That is a game. Everyone's voice gets a little more raspy and deeper and just grovelly when you wake up in Vegas. Okay, so we're going to talk about the Raptors and the Hornets first, and then we're going to talk about some winners and losers and some other things. You have some opening thoughts you would like to offer, I think, on these two teams that Kevin Pelton kindly left us. I'm actually excited to talk about them among other teams.

So this is a really interesting contrast because one team, we have a very good idea of how they operate, and the other, we have no idea how they operate. I mean, the Raptors, from a management perspective, are...

you know, one of the more stable teams in the league. Messiah Jerry has been there a decade. Bobby Webster has been there sort of in the number two role for, for about nine, 10 years as well. You know, a bunch of other people in, in, in kind of similar spots. And so we have a pretty good idea of how they kind of go about things. Whereas the Hornets new owner, new front office, very young front office, new coaching staff, very young coaching staff,

And so we are going to probably a lot more guessing about how they're going to resolve what I think are similar problems that they're facing to the Raptors. Well, let's talk about the Raptors because you preface this by saying we know how they operate. And my follow-up question would be, do we? I mean, they won the championship five years ago and they've been a solid team up and down since then. They had the Tampa tank year, which we'll talk about. And I would posit to you that they,

At least through one lens, they've had one of the strangest couple of years of team building of anybody in the NBA, which makes their outlook not only for this coming season, but the next two or three seasons as they try to sort of recalibrate their place in the Eastern Conference, one of the more confusing outlooks in the NBA. Few teams that are not in Los Angeles or New York or one of the glamour markets are

kind of voluntarily let very good players, including two all-stars in Fred Van Vliet and Pascal Siakam, one of whom is an all-NBA player, not let them walk, although in Fred Van Vliet's case they did, but just sort of voluntarily like, you know what? We want out of this business before you guys cycle on to your next contracts. Before any of them were even 30 years old, the Raptors were like, no, we're cool. We are going to go recalibrate around Scottie Barnes.

Those three players, Ananobi, Siakam, Van Vliet, will earn about $120 million combined starting next season when Ananobi and Siakam cycle onto their deals. And the Raptors looked at that and said,

We're going to be in the tax and we might, we might even be in the second apron. Not that they could have foreseen that such a thing would occur necessarily. If we keep all three of those guys and Scotty Barnes and Yaka Purtle and a supporting cast. And we don't think that seems good enough. I would imagine that there, that that was their thinking and we could keep two of those three and maybe stay under the tax, but we don't think that team is all that good. What's the point of that? And yet again,

As some of their sort of, I don't want to say critics, but some of the confused would say, they didn't exactly tear it down either. They traded Siakam to the Pacers in what looks like a sort of traditional rebuilding trade. Three first round picks and Bruce Brown, who they'll surely try to flip at some point. They trade Ananobi for what looks like...

somewhere in between trade for two one very good young player that they wanted in Emmanuel Cookley I'll call him a young-ish veteran and RJ Barrett and then they turn around and they flip one of the picks they got for the pace from the Pacers for another young-ish veteran and Ochai Agbaje and a backup Canadian center Kelly Olenek who's older than all three players they were just like we're cool not having you guys on the team and amid all of that

They make what is on paper a just no-brainer win-now trade, trading a lightly protected future first-round pick to the Spurs to get Jakob Pertl back, who they then re-sign. That pick ended up becoming Rob Dillingham. It conveyed this year. So I ask you, Seth Partnow, what are the Raptors doing and do we actually understand how their management works? What is this team? So if I wanted to zoom way out and take the...

As a parent, you know the most generous interpretation of something that happens is a good way to approach things. I think they've had a lot of experience over the years being...

Pretty good without having that one true superstar player. And I think the formative years of this front office that saw them get beat in increasingly painful fashion by LeBron every year in the playoffs with those kind of... LeBronto. Shout out LeBronto. Shooting turnaround fadeaway jumpers over everybody. One-legged runners running, you know, moving 90 degrees away from the basket. And...

So they've lived that before with those DeRozan and Lowry teams. And the one year that they had massive success was they had, I mean, I think for that two-year period between, you know, when they got Kawhi and when he, probably when he blew out his knee a couple years later in the playoffs, he had a very credible claim to being the best player in the world.

And that was their, um, uh, that was their sort of shining moment. And I think to some degree they've been chasing that again. And Pascal, see how comes a good player. I think we have all the information we know to know he's not that, uh,

Not what? Not that level of player, not that Kawhi, that top five superstar player. Yeah, you mentioned all NBA. He gets that describer, and he deserves it. I love Spicy P. He's a fantastic player. But those third-team forward spots on all NBA in the last five years have kind of been a hodgepodge of like, wait, am I down to Julius Randle? Am I really at this point because of injuries and age? So he's all NBA. You can't take it away. Just like you can't take away –

injury replacement all-star like cases they they he is that but you he's not first team all nba and this is this is tied to some some research that i've done in the past about sort of levels of player and the gap in terms of how likely they are to help you win a championship between the top three top five player and a top 20 top 25 player is just massive so i'm

I understand why we group kind of all NBA players together, but really you need that perennial first team, all NBA type, maybe a second team and really great sort of complimentary pieces. We just saw the Celtics kind of win with that, where, you know, you have, you have Tatum who's,

eighth best player in the league, give or take. I think he's, as someone who has called him in two or three months ago and gotten some flack for it, including from Jason Tatum's agent, not a top five player in the NBA. And I listed the five and I said, I'm going to do it off the top of my head. Jokic, in no order. Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, this year SGA, and who am I missing? There's somebody else. Oh, Luka, Luka, Luka, Luka. Yeah.

And, uh, and, and the rebuttal that I received from a lot of people was now we're talking about Jason Tatum and I don't care. He's so fun to talk about. Um,

was well I mean Embiid's just always injured why is he why does he just get to be a top five player like you don't get to just explain away availability as as part of the criteria and SGA hasn't proven as much as Jason Tatum and this was before Jason Tatum's team won the NBA championship so you say eighth I get it like Steph is still incredible LeBron's still incredible KD's still incredible I think he's I think I I'd have him higher than eighth but that's that's just me

Anyway, please continue about the Toronto Raptors. We're doing the thing we're supposed to talk about the Raptors and poor Canada. So what about us? But that's all the saying. Part of why the Celtics won was, okay, Tatum actually didn't play his best basketball because the rest of their starting lineup is all top 30 players. So if you don't have taking it as a given for purpose of argument that he's not one of those top five players, the way you win a championship is that much depth.

And that's hard to build. But the Raptors know they haven't even had that. They haven't had a top 10 player. And so cycling away from these guys who they know are good, but not that. And is Scottie Barnes that? I don't know. He's not currently. Does he have a chance to be that? I wouldn't evaluate him to really have much of a chance to be that way. But I can see how you, in their shoes, you at least have to find that out.

before you maybe cycle again. Yeah, I think what's confusing to people is that fans, not unreasonably, kind of want a clear through line of everything.

every transaction kind of fits the same plot. Like, okay, we're moving away from these three players that we've grown to love. We must be rebuilding. So we're going to stockpile assets and draft picks and do the rebuilding thing. And the Raptors kind of haven't done that consistently with every trade. They've targeted players. They've even traded a pick for Ogbaji and Olenek, which I think they were...

Probably given like an average of C-ish on that trade. I actually kind of liked it for them because I think their thought was we don't want to have too many picks in the same draft. Let's get a stable backup big man who's a passer and a shooter is always helpful. And Ogbaje is like a second draft guy.

The Pirtle trade, which I thought was strange at the time and is still kind of strange. It cost him a very good pick. The through line isn't there, but maybe the through line is this. Maybe the through line is simply we already bottomed out. That was our bottoming out. Scotty Barnes in Tampa was our bottoming out. And now we're trying to thread the needle of getting financially leaner,

Kind of rebuilding, retooling, but still remaining competitive. And I think the two big questions that you have to answer is number one, how competitive actually are they right now? Like ESPN bets over unders just came out.

today and i think they're 30 and a half and i wrote about them today and i said they're too good to tank now with what these teams are doing to set up to tank in the next two drafts but they're also just not very good i don't think and that that could be worrisome through through one lens and then the other question is like is scotty barnes gonna be that guy is scotty barnes gonna be a top 10 player in the nba top 12 player in the nba that's i think what they're betting on um

Pick either of those directions. Where do you want to go? Oh, it's interesting you mentioned 30 and a half. I think if you were going to squint and be a little more bullish on the Raptors, you point that out that after they kind of made the trades January and February of last year, they played at about a 30 and a half win pace. The rest of the season, they played at about a 22 win pace, sort of with Barnes and quickly and Barrett. They were competitive. Yeah.

The way I look at it, and this is by contrast to some teams that sort of have bottomed out. Let's pick Detroit, for example. Detroit has maybe their centerpiece, but they haven't had their development environment, their evaluation environment has been such a mess that they probably aren't any closer to knowing Detroit.

what those guys are in actual kind of NBA basketball. So if I was going to defend the fertile trade, it's like, okay, our rim protection is terrible. Let's get a real center in here. Let's see what this looks like. Is Scottie Barnes, again, would I say it's more likely than not that Scottie Barnes becomes a first-team all-NBA player? No, I think it's...

It's substantially less likely. Which, by the way, which sounds bad, but that's the highest bar there is in the league other than a winning MVP like that. What you just said is the case for pretty much every player other than like four dudes in the NBA. Yes. It's like the guys who are not in that group that have potential, have clear potential to get in there is depending on where you have SGA and Wemby,

And, you know, Zion, if he's healthy and that, that might be the entire list. So if you have a chance at that and that player is so valuable, I think it's, it's, it is a interesting and, and unusual, but I think plausible strategy to spend some capital, spend some time to actually find that out for certain. Um, and that's, again, if I was going to be very generous to, to how they've operated, that's what I would say they were doing. Um,

To just not plant my flag, but I am on the high end of Scottie Barnes' optimism, pessimism. I'm not saying he's going to be first team All-NBA, but I think, I believe he's just 22 years old. He has made an all-star team already. I say this in light of

I heard Bill Simmons and Ryan Russillo, who I love, and obviously they've worked with both of those guys before, kind of like, what is the rush to extend Scottie Barnes at the max? What has he proven? Why would you do this? Why don't teams, more teams, do the restricted free agency, wield the hammer like that? Which, by the way, I think Houston might end up being an interesting test case of that. I think Houston with Jalen Green...

and Alper and Sengun may try to wield a little, the leverage that they have both in extension talks. And if there is no extension for either of those guys down the line. And I was like, I must be watching like the wrong Raptors games. Maybe like, I think Scottie Barnes is pretty freaking good. 20 points, eight rebounds, six assists shot up to 34% on three last year. That's a question. His playmate, he, he has the outlines of like,

He can do a little bit of everything on offense. He can run, pick and roll. He can ISO. He can post up mismatches, which they can manufacture for him because of how switchable he is on defense. If he ends up, you know, guarding a little guy, he runs the floor, he seals. He and Quickly, Emmanuel Quickly, who was the gem of the Ananobi trade for the Raptors, developed a nice pick and roll chemistry both directions. Inverted pick and rolls with Scottie handling and quickly screening it. And I...

defensively he has not been as good and as consistent as he needs to be and how, and how he should be given his tools. I think Scotty Barnes is really, really good and maybe first team all NBA. I mean, we'll see, but I think there's an all NBA player that is in his future and he's only 22 years old, but he's already done is pretty impressive. So if there's a continuum of Scotty Barnes pessimism on one side, he's a guy, he's just going to be a guy.

First team all NBA optimism on the other side. I'm like 75% of the way positive, just to be clear.

I don't have any problem. I agree with the general point that I think teams vastly underutilized restricted free agency. That said, I think Scottie Barnes is fairly easy, easily worth as, as your colleague, Brian Winters would call it the fun max of the, of someone coming off of, of a rookie scale. I don't, I don't have any problem with that. And I think from an improvement standpoint, you, you may have buried the lead a little bit on the shooting improvement. Scott,

He's gone from 73% to 78% from the line. Not only is his three-point percentage increased, but I think an even bigger indicator for me is his volume has close to doubled, which means he thinks he can shoot, which is kind of a big deal for a guy becoming a shooter. And how high that can go with him being a primarily on-ball player, I would be surprised if he ever became like a –

a big time, like pull up threat from a three point shooter, but, but someone who can, who can stick a three off of ball reversal. Like that's a, that's a very useful, full thing to add. So I think that what you're talking about in terms of seeing substantial and measurable improvements is definitely there. And they are, look, the, the people, the people, the Raptors are very, very bullish on Scotty Barnes. Like it's not a public front that talking him up is the future face of the franchise. Like,

They are true believers, and they should be. They drafted him. Remember, it was almost a slight surprise that they picked him over Jalen Suggs, who also is awesome, by the way, for the Orlando Magic, one of my favorite players to watch. So let's talk about the team then because –

You know, their risk both this season and in the next couple seasons is exactly what I just outlined. We're too good to tank, but we're also not very good. The problem, the East, it's really just incredible. Like a team like the Raptors, given what the Nets have done, what the Wizards always are, what the Pistons are, the Hornets will talk about what the Bulls appear to be doing. The Raptors could be too good to tank.

Not very good. And finish 9th or 10th in the East and be like, oh, we're in the play-in. What happened? That's good, I guess, but we're also going to pick 12th. So here's the four starters in Penn are Quickly, who I think is very good. And that contract, although it looks massive, is totally fine. It's going to be like 17% of the cap by the end. Five years, 170-something. Barrett.

who was not quite a throw-in in the Ananobi trade, but not also the target of it. And by the way, very quietly and unnoticed outside of Canadia, played very, very well for the Raptors. 22 points a game, 55% shooting, 40% on threes.

His defense is just okay, but he's got tools there. Like that was interesting. Scotty Barnes and Jakob Pertl. The fifth spot, I'm going to go ahead and predict Grady Dick wins the job as the starting shooting guard. He'll have competition from Bruce Brown and Davion Mitchell, another sort of second draft guy. Adbaji, the Walter kid they just drafted might get a look. But I think Grady Dick...

will win the job given how he didn't shoot it well in Vegas, but I liked his floor game. I like his all around instincts and I liked the role that he can fill on that team. It's a young, interesting team. And then the bench is all those guards I just mentioned, uh,

Olenek is a backup five. The backup four thing is a little bit iffy. Maybe Boucher, maybe Mogbo, the guy they just drafted at 31 with the Pistons pick, which was like, by the way, a big deal getting that pick in the Ananobi trade from the Knicks. Or maybe kind of Scottie Barnes staggers into being the backup power forward because I do think last year they learned we need one of Quickly and Barnes on the floor all the time. It's an interesting team. I just...

I don't quite know like what it actually amounts to. And I do, I can see them being trapped in the next two or three years. Like, okay, we're a 36 win team. Great. What are we doing? But all those guys are young. At least I don't know. What do you see as the prognosis for this coming season? Do you disagree with my starting lineup choice? And just sort of zooming out, like,

Is the plan just let's develop and we'll strike when the time is right? We own all our picks. Maybe we'll have cap space at some point. Maybe not. Like we'll strike in the trade market when the time is right. I think it's not just let's develop. It's let's evaluate.

I think that's something that really gets overlooked in these discussions is figuring out what we have. It's so important from a roster management perspective to really give a hard-eyed look to what do we have on this team. And I'll say it again, that's not a great team, but that's a real NBA team.

And so you can, it's a representative team. It's a representative NBA team. And, and so you can get a clean look at Scotty Barnes as the drink stirrer on a, it's not a perfect team. It's not a, it's probably not a, not a, I would be frankly shocked if it was a top six playoff team. But it's a, it is a real team with, you know, it's got spacing, it's got a rim protection, it's got some secondary creation, but,

So, yeah, again, we get to see if Scottie Barnes is continuing to develop in that direction or not. And I think that that has a tremendous amount of value. Now, all right, you don't have a chance to get Cooper Flagg. But as you pointed out, they don't really have a chance to get Cooper Flagg anyway. So...

I think, by the way, you mentioned MoBo, and that's a very interesting... Those players have kind of over the years been this player type of the kind of...

oddly shaped 6'6", versatile, not really shooter, but can do stuff with the ball in his hands. Like those, going back to like Julian Wright, those players have been my kryptonite in the draft in terms of, man, I'm interested by him. So I'm very intrigued by that. That's a high variance, but if that hits, then they've got, I mean, a very interesting kind of

possibly similarly skilled running mate for Barnes. So I'm very interested to see how that develops. But again, we're not going to know a ton about that this year. By middle of next year, we'll probably have an idea of if he's going to be something or not. If you're bullish on the Raptors, 30.5%

Seems a little low to me. I'm not going to go full over-undersquad yet. It's July. I'm already half on vacation. In my mind, anyway. The Raptors with Quickly, Barrett, Barnes, Pirtle, and no Siakam last year. Because Siakam, I believe, was traded after Ananobi. Um...

Plus 14 per a hundred possessions in about 200 minutes. That's interesting. 200 minutes, as you would point out as an analytics guys, not very much at all. A three point shooting luck either, either way may have a lot to do with that, but it's not an interesting. And I like some of the young guys that they're kind of taking shots on. Uh, like a bodgy, I think is worth a look. Davion Mitchell is worth a look. I mean, he has a proven a plus NBA skill ball pressure against, against point guards. Um,

It's an interesting team. You know, you just look big picture and, you know...

They're kind of behind... Not behind. Okay, so you can look at the East. You have these juggernauts at the top, right? The Celtics, the Sixers, the Knicks. They're very expensive. Some of them are older. Like Joel Embiid isn't going into his 30s now. And then you have like a crew of younger teams that's sort of waiting those guys out. Like when does age take them out? When do payroll issues force them to break their teams apart? Then you have Orlando who has Bankero who's probably a little bit ahead of Scottie Barnes developmentally, although I think the gap is...

Probably pretty minuscule. And I think the public consensus would be Bankero is an ascendant star who's developed further than Scottie Barnes. I probably think the gap is not nearly as big as the public consensus would have it. The Pacers have an all NBA guy already and Halliburton, the Cavs have a bunch of young players. Like those teams are kind of ahead of the Raptors in the line of waiting out the juggernauts in the East. And the Raptors are just kind of behind them. And I think they're okay with that for now.

I'm glad you brought up Bankero because I think I, I mean, you're, I'll go where I'm not. I think you maybe want to go, but weren't is I'd rather have Scottie Barnes. I don't think that's a crazy stance at all. I think, I think Bankero's shot making in the playoffs in big moments is, is very, very enticing. I think it's, I think it's close. I, I need to see Scottie Barnes tap into the defender that he should be.

He's a little bit better of a playmaker, but not as polished as a scorer quite yet. But I think it's actually very clear. That'd be a very interesting debate. If you pulled 100 front office executives, I think given the recency of Bankero in the playoffs, it would probably be like 65-35 Bankero. Maybe a little closer than that, though. I don't know. I think with Bankero, we need to see whether he can actually handle...

the offensive load they require of him due to their lack of shot creation with some degree of efficiency or see what he looks like if there's sort of another, you know, their guard play there, at least offensively, their guard play has been so mediocre that,

for his career, that if they get someone who can actually put him in spots to get some degree easier shots, what his overall profile looks like. So, you know, we've talked a lot about having a clean development environment or a clean evaluation environment for Barnes, and

Orlando doesn't quite have that for, for Bankaro. And so, yeah, he's putting up points, but if you look at, if you look at it, they're good. They're good. The magic are good. They're good because they guard like demons, but that's like, that's important. They almost want a playoff series. And I think their line next year is like 46 and a half or something big like that. Like they're a good team. The Raptors are not a good team. Yeah.

But for them to, the magic for them to get to that, it's a similar thing. And I know we're bouncing off the Raptors to talk about an American team again. But, you know, they're almost in a similar spot in they need Ben Carer to be that top five guy. And, you know, and I'm not sure they still have the guard play around him to give them the best chance of figuring that out.

I love Ben Carroll, but I also think he's on track to be a polarizing player in the vein of Carmelo Anthony almost where his old school crafty footwork mid-range game is just so pleasing to watch and so seductive that he's going to become catnip for a certain kind of fan. And then a hardcore analytics person is going to say, well, he only makes 42% of his long twos and I can see it going too extreme.

in either direction uh i guess i guess what i'm saying seth is if a raptors fan and i go to toronto a lot i have family there i love to love the love toronto if a raptors fan on the street came up to me and was like how should i how should i feel about our team like next three or four years i don't even know where i would i i would be like i don't know i guess okay like i don't i don't like i get why you might miss siakam and enanobi like they're homegrown guys they're not even old it probably waited too long to trade siakam at least um

But I don't know what I would answer because they're an interesting young up-and-coming team. It really just comes down to Barnes. It's just Barnes has to really hit, I think, for this to work. I mean, I think they're very much going to be a hipster watch team because of all these, you know, not just Barnes, but, you know, how does quickly develop is what we saw from RJ in –

Toronto, is that real? How does Grady Dick develop? Which of the second draft guys hit or don't? So I think that they are maybe more of a, like I said, like a hipster team where someone who gets really deep in the weeds of these guys will really enjoy playing

Kind of watching how that develops or not if it goes badly. But I think that for the more mainline fan, they are probably not the most interesting team in the league this year. Put it that way. Barrett is the guy to watch for me because, you know, you mentioned quickly and how does quickly develop. There's a world where quickly becomes...

like a fringe all-star candidate. And like one of those guys, when you're debating the last couple of spots, I quickly is actually averaging like 21 and nine and decent shooting. That would be a huge hit for the Raptors. And I don't, I don't think that's implausible. Now, if you're, I don't think he like regular Eastern conference, all-star, like if we 10 years from now, wow, quickly made five all-star teams. I don't see that happening, but yeah,

that former fringe thing would be a very good development for them. Barrett, to me, is the pivot guy because he's only got two years left on his deal. It doesn't look as expensive today as it did when the Knicks signed it. I thought it was an okay deal even at the time. I've always been a little bit more bullish on Barrett than the consensus. But that's the one where...

it's gonna come up quick where the raptors have to make a decision of of is this guy part of our core like are we actually going to pay him his next contract and if not do we need to get out ahead of it a little bit faster than we did with the guys that we just traded so i i don't i that that's the that's the one that's interesting to me any other raptors thoughts before we move on from canada

No, I think Barrett's been an interesting player for me too. And the thing about Barrett that is worth noting is it wasn't just that he had a hot run of shooting in Toronto. If you look at it like his shot diet...

he was sort of asked to be a creator and a ball-in-hands guy and all that in New York, and his shot diet was pretty rough. If you look at it in Toronto, he's getting to the rim, he's finishing better at the rim, and I think a much more sort of appropriate for his sort of

you know, bully got ball who can shoot the ball a little bit kind of guy who isn't necessarily throwing the ball in the wing and start the offense. And I think that that is probably going to, that sort of less responsible role is probably better for him to sort of grow into the best version of himself than maybe the sort of the, the very ISO heavy kind of Tibbs offense, uh,

was for him in New York. Yeah, I've always liked him as a player. The record will show that. We'll see if the outside shooting is real. That's obviously a massive variable. To me, I think where he's got to really level up his defense. He's got the tools to be a much better defensive player than he is. And if he can become another switchable, like weaponized defender where you switch and then, oh my God, on the other end, I've got a mismatch. I can play my bully ball. He's a different kind of player.

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Let's go to the Hornets, who's over under is 29 and a half, just one below the Raptors. You mentioned you called what did you call the Raptors like a real NBA team, a functional NBA team, representative NBA team.

I think the Hornets are closer to being that than maybe people realize. If a lot of things break right, first and foremost being LaMelo Ball can stay on the floor and maybe not drive the go-kart on the roof of the building and stay safe. They're starting five.

I would pencil in this. LaMelo Ball, Brandon Miller. Love Brandon Miller. I would start Josh Green. Just swiped him from the Mavs as like a 3 and D connector type. Maybe they disagree with me. I don't know. Miles Bridges, who is back, and they're going to have to answer for that. And they should have to answer for that. And Mark Williams, if he's healthy, from his back injuries, I think has major potential as a two-way sort of rim running center. It's a decent...

It's a decent team. The bench would then be some combination. That means Grant Williams, NBA Finals 2024 fan, Grant Williams, super fan number one, goes back to a reserve role, which I like him better in. Nick Richards is a backup five. He's a representative backup five. And I've got a whole bunch of other guys. I got Reggie Jackson, Vasily Michich, Trey Mann, Nick Smith Jr. I can stagger some minutes. Like, that's not...

Although they've moved on from, and they've got the kid they just drafted, Solan, who they're deep enough to bring him along slowly. Or if he's ready for minutes, great, play him. I could see the Hornets getting to the halfway point of the season and saying, we're kind of not as bad as we thought we were going to be. What do we do about that? I kind of...

I'm not saying they're going to make the play in or whatever the playoffs. I kind of think they're not a bad team. If ball can stay healthy. LaMelo is a very polarizing player. I have referred to him at times as a carnival act. And I don't even mean that necessarily in a bad way.

I thought before the ankle injuries ruined his season last year that he was starting to do some of the stuff, particularly offensively, that they're going to need him to do to become a serious winning basketball player. But I've said this about Lomelo before. He takes a lot of crazy threes, throws a lot of crazy passes, seems to care a little too much about making a highlight play, gambles like all hell on defense. I get it. He's silly off the floor with the cars and the outfits and the go-karts and all of it.

You do not find six, seven, eight,

With this kind of passing vision, and he has elite passing vision, and a proven already at age 22, I believe he's still just 22 years old, a proven three-point shot. Now, you look at his three-point percentage, and it's probably 36, 37. Is that really proven? Given the difficulty of the shots he's taking and how that would scale down a little bit on a better team, yeah, I think he has a proven three-point shot. You don't find that combination very often, which is why...

I would be very, very hesitant to not give up on LaMelo Ball because nobody's doing that, but to pigeonhole him as like a losing empty calories player. There's something here if Charles Lee can tap into it, if LaMelo can tap into it. There's something here that could really, really pop. Maybe not this year, but point being, if this team wants to get into the Cooper Flag Derby and the 2026 Draft Derby,

I think they might actually have to do some work to get there at the trade deadline. But maybe I'm just a cockeyed lamello ball optimist. Seth, you may just talk me down from the ledge very quickly now. First of all, I do have to admit a little bit of personal bias here. Charles Lee worked with him in Milwaukee. Think very highly of him. And basically half of his coaching staff was on that Milwaukee staff.

Um, and so a lot of people that I'm, that I'm, you know, pretty close with and, and, uh, and enjoy a blend Miller, who was the coach of the, of the Celtics G league team last year, who, uh, if I can, if I can plug a friend is a, is the name to look out for in coaching circles in the next few years. So I'm away. I'll, I'll, I'll admit to, to rooting for them for, for, for that reason, because it's a lot of people involved. I know. And like, um,

On Lomelo, I think the one thing that kind of pings my interest still is his rookie year when they were kind of a more solid team. He showed a lot of interesting defensive instincts too. Didn't always come out, but I mean, a lot of the defensive playmaking that Lonzo that made before his kind of body gave out on him, a lot of the defensive playmaking that

that Lonzo showed that made him such an interesting player and made that Bulls team for about two months such a fun watch. There's a little bit of that there. And so maybe, again, if you get back to a more solid team in a situation where they're playing real basketball games, maybe we see some more of that. And that, I think, categorically shifts my opinion of him as a player, as becoming a winning player. All of that said...

I kind of went into this offseason thinking that they should, that if it was me, I'd be thinking about turning the page and making this Brandon Miller's team. Well, it's interesting you say that because I wrote a little blurb about them today. And one of the things I wrote in there was, what if LaMelo doesn't make these developments that we've talked about and Brandon Miller just explodes? And I do think...

This thing that we do sometimes in the media about whose team is it is often a media creation that is not only not real to the team, but can actually foment division within the teams. I don't like doing it, but I do think this is a case where given where this franchise is, there are scenarios where they decide,

All of our team building decisions are now going to be based not on LaMelo Ball, but on Brandon Miller. I'm not saying they're not there. Like the second season hasn't even started yet for Brandon Miller. We're a long way from there. But I do think that's a new ownership, new coach, new front office, not pot committed to LaMelo Ball in the same way that the predecessors were.

I do think that that is a potential roadmap for them to sort of recalibrate all of their team building decisions, but I'm not there. They shouldn't be there. But it's interesting that you say it. Why do you elaborate more on that? Cause I think that's interesting. So I, well, I, I agree with your general point that it's X's team is, is sometimes overblown. I think there are some players that if they're on the team, the team plays like, you know, for moat for his, until he kind of aged out of a starting position,

A Russell Westbrook team played like a Russell Westbrook team. A LeBron team plays like a LeBron team. And, you know, for all the things that you mentioned about how he plays, I think that a team that has LaMelo Ball is going to play like a LaMelo Ball team as long as he has the offensive keys. And so that's why I think that if you were going to sort of turn over to go somewhere else, maybe play a...

a more standard NBA style, I guess, of offense, I think it would be turning it, turning it over. And that would necessarily entail not just saying, all right, he's on all our marketing materials, but maybe you have to trade the other guy so that we can, we can, you know, play a more standard style. What is, what do you mean by more standard style?

More ball movement, less, as you say, the highlight passes and the pull-up 30-footers. And sort of almost, you know, you get back to the ball family sort of origin story, less of the sort of the Chino Hills run-and-gun stuff.

which was effective and gave both of those brothers a ton of on-ball reps, which served them well as a development purpose, but you just wonder if it is sustainable at the level of player Lomelo is. I mean, you've got to, for a player to be that sort of ball and offense dominant, you're starting to get into sort of prime James Harden, Luka Doncic territory for how good you have to be for that to really work.

And is he going to hit that level? I have some skepticism. Is it still possible? Sure. Prime James Harden and Luka Doncic, no, he's not good. That's best player in the NBA, best offensive player in the NBA. And in Luka's case, arguably best player in the NBA. But Luka is an interesting comparison to make because of the size and the vision. And because Luka does...

What LaMelo has not done enough of. And he started to do last year. And I talked to him before the season about it. And I talked to Steve Clifford before the season about it. And it's all they wanted to talk about was, you know...

For as much as we're talking about the step back threes and all this, he would have a tendency to turn the corner on the pick and roll and get off the ball super early. Like kick it out to a shooter to the point that like you want to praise the unselfishness, but Lamello hasn't compromised the defense enough to the point that the shooter is open or just these 17 foot floaters. And you just would watch him and you'd admire the unselfishness, but you'd also say,

There's a moment for you here to slow down, keep your dribble alive, use your size in the paint, get to the basket, see what the defense exposes in help rotations and make better, more productive passes or just go to the basket. And you know this, you studied this data, his rim frequency is,

went down down down down down after his first year and started to climb back up last year and he started to do more of that it was a clear point of emphasis and when you said standard that's the light bulb that went off in my head is like a little bit more of that he's not going to be luca he's never going to play like luca with the sort of you can't speed him up and all of that like you can speed lamello up lamello speed himself up that's fine but a little bit more of that

I think changes him as a player and changes the way everybody plays off of him. And I'm still... Look, I mean, he's been a sexy, like, should the Hornets just sell high on him now and recalibrate their franchise? If they can get four first-round picks for LaMelo Ball, should they do it? First of all, I think it's too early for that. Second of all, I don't know that they could get four first-round picks for LaMelo Ball and the Godfather trade-off for right now. So I...

I want to see it more. I'm curious. But when you said standard, that's what I thought of, those conversations I had with LaMelo and Cliff before the season. No, I think that's right. I think it's sort of the give yourself the best offensive initiators. That's sort of the commonality in terms of they can do it in so many different ways, but it's they give themselves enough time.

for the defense to almost get antsy. And one guy takes one step the wrong way, bam, pass to a corner shooter or something like that. And if you're always going 9,000 miles an hour, you don't give the defense time to react themselves out of position. So I think that that's a very kind of astute point in terms of his development. And, you know, frankly, I'm not...

Like I said, I went into the offseason thinking they should maybe do that. At the same time, with all the turnover there, I can very much understand we're not ready to make that decision yet.

Again, new front office, new coaching staff, new ownership. First day, are we trading LaMelo Ball? No, let's extend him and see what we have because it's not like he won't have value around the league if you decide you want to change your mind tomorrow.

So I think that that's a perfectly plausible and probably wise decision for, you know, a leadership group across all three of ownership coaching front office that probably hasn't had enough time to really dig in and study leadership.

How they feel about this. So I think that's perfectly fine and okay. It does, though, it does kind of elongate the timeline for them a little bit and does put them in what you said, in that little bit of that middle ground where if they do decide they want to go after Cooper Flagg or whoever else in this upcoming draft, it does put them a little behind the eight ball.

I forgot even to mention Cody Martin, who I have a soft spot for as another rotation guy. I think this is the number one candidate for a Utah Jazz-style pull-the-rug-out-from-under-our-own team halfway through the season because we're winning a little bit more than we expected. I don't think they're going to be 500 like Utah has been before they've pulled the rug out and had stretches where they were way over 500. But I think this is the best candidate for that kind of trade because everything...

This this regime of Rick Schnall and Gabe Plotkin has done and Jeff and now Jeff Peterson, since they got there, has been big, big, big picture. P.J. Washington for a pick, you know, and I think a swap to or no, they didn't get a swap. They just got picked.

you know, the Hayward for Trey Mann and Pokashevsky and like gathering up second round picks. It's all been very forward, long lens. And they got a lot of work to do, man. You look at some of their draft picks recently, James Booknight, Kai Jones, it's been in the Jordan regime was, was a little rough, but Brandon Miller's good. I think Brandon Miller is going to be really good, a really good two way player. And, and Charles Lee, I think will do a good job. I think they, they have,

They're an interesting team. They've always been one of the sleeping giants of the league to me because players like that market. It's a good market. It's a good place to live.

it's a cool brand dating to when they went teal and all of that. Like it's a good atmosphere. It's a good crowd. And I think they're, I, they're going to be, you mentioned the Raptors as sort of the geeks team, the Hornets are going to be like, I'm just so endlessly curious about LaMelo that they're going to be one of my, like, let me just check. And they tip at seven. I think God bless the 7. P.M. Tip teams. Like give me a, give me a Hornets game. And I got to can get a headstart on what have we not, what have we not covered with them? Anything.

I mean, I just, you know, I'd be remiss in saying that I did own that teal starter jacket back in the Muggsy LJ days. So yes, I can, the coolness of the brand in sort of the mid to late 90s, it cannot be overstated. I'm glad you mentioned Muggsy Bookz.

So in my dream of like, if you just gave me six months to do nothing but report a story, what are some of the most fun stories or most serious stories or whatever? And there are a couple of serious ones that I'm not going to divulge here. One of them would be

as just a casual, not, not even a hockey fan. I wanted to read like a New Yorker, like 8,000 word piece on like, how is Yaramir Yager still good? He's 46 years old. Like, how is that possible? And I want to read or write 10,000 words on, I just don't think it can be stated enough how insane it is that Muggsy Bogues was a good NBA player. I believe he's listed as five, three, uh,

Like that should not even be in the universe. Like five, seven, five, eight is like normal adult male short and very short for the NBA. I'm going to double check it now that he's listed as five, three. Now we're really off on a tangent, but like that is one of the craziest things that's ever happened in sports. And I want to read like an 8,000 word retrospective of like, how did this happen? What was he like to play against, um,

I don't know. Now we're talking about Muggsy Bush. 5'3". 5'3", 136 pounds is his official listing on Basketball Reference. 5'3". If you saw a 5'3 guy or woman in the street today, you'd be like, that person's pretty damn short for normal human life. I would also be interested in a big deep dive on his high school team.

I believe four NBA players on his high school team, including my favorite player of all time, the late Reggie Lewis. So...

I would obviously be interested in that as well. And like you say, Muggsy is probably one of the more interesting. Okay, Spud Webb among small guys, Spud Webb, but Spud Webb could jump out of the gym. But Muggsy did it with being strong ball pressure and never turning the ball over and still being 5'3 and being a credible defensive player in the NBA. That's crazy. Yeah.

All right. Before I let you go, I said pick a winner and a loser of the offseason. I've already done some winners and losers, but I'm always interested in your perspective. It could be under the radar. It could be not under the radar. It could be anything. So let's start positive. Pick a team that you are happy about what they've done and would like to talk about.

I, you know, I'm going to go slightly Homer and say that despite not having a lot of mechanisms, the Bucks had a pretty decent, at least a pretty decent free agency period. We can, we can say whatever we want about their draft. I don't think it totally matters in so far as their window is pretty short and whoever they drafted doc wasn't going to play. So whatever, but you know, picking up Delon Wright, Tarion Prince, Gary Trent for a team that did not have enough drafts.

like NBA rotation players last year, that's a good off season. And you combine that with the fact that they had sort of one of the, you know, every year there's a team that just sort of has a Murphy's loss season. And, and, and, you know, recent examples like the warriors in, in, in, in 21, the year before they won, had one of those seasons, which is nothing went right. And I think that, that that's a little bit where the bucks were last year. So,

And everything from injuries to sort of the lateness of the Lillard trade to what I think we can say at this point was a pretty disastrous coaching hire. And frankly, credit to them, I thought it was a bold move to recognize pretty early, ooh, no, this is not it, we made a mistake. And instead of trying to double down, which I think you as an observer of the league for a long time,

The standard would much more, no, this is actually going to work. Look, we'll give it more time. And so credit to them for being willing to, you know, both from a front office standpoint and from an ownership standpoint to be willing to pay. So all that said, like coming into this season with some solidity, with some continuity, with a, you know, Doc gets a lot of approbation for kind of some playoff stuff, but he is a

much more than solid NBA coach. And now you have, you know, eight, nine NBA players there. I think that you mentioned like the top teams in the East and you mentioned obviously Boston, Philly, New York. I think we, we exclude Milwaukee from that conversation at our peril. I totally agree, which is why I'm having Jamal Collier on right after you to talk about the Milwaukee Bucks in light of the Gary Trent signing and the Chris Middleton surgery news. Any other quick winner that you want to highlight? Yeah,

I mean, I'm going to go a little chalk here in that I think Oklahoma City did a nice job filling some holes. I think they still probably have a move or two to make, but the moves they've made, they basically didn't compromise any of their sort of optionality, their war chest of assets. They could still use a big wing, but so could everybody else. And I think Hartenstein is a really great pickup for them. Obviously,

People have wondered if Caruso and Dort are duplicative, and my question is, so what?

I think that we've seen in the playoffs that having physical, defensively versatile perimeter players is a good thing. Having multiple of those. And then Philly, obviously, they've had a very nice offseason, adding Paul George. Not only in terms of the upgrade from that position, but also in terms of making them resilient and not...

feeling like they have to play Joel Embiid every night. I think getting back to our earlier conversation about like the top X players, to win a championship, you kind of need everything to go right. And part of everything going right is getting your guys to the playoffs healthy. And I think as much as anything, like having Paul George there gives them more,

ways to get through the regular season in a high-seeded position while not. I think, I mean, I think frankly for his, his body, Joel Embiid played too much last year. And I think it caught up with them towards the end of the season. And it gives them a chance to not do that. Gives them a chance to get to the playoffs hole. And then we'll see what we can see. I have said many times in the last three weeks since free agency started that

Number one priority for the Sixers next season is everything we can do to get Joel Embiid healthy when the playoffs start. I don't care about 65 games. I don't care about minutes. I don't care about MVP. I don't care about any of it. It's over. That stuff is over. This is a championship level team. I don't think they're going to be the favorites, but they're a championship level team. Championship level big three. Get them there healthy. Real quickly, you mentioned the Thunder. I think they're indisputably, along with the Sixers, the biggest winner of the offseason.

Love everything they did. I've talked about it ad nauseum. I think they're the favorites for the number one seed in the West. I don't even think that's particularly close. They're over under, I think, 55 and a half. Boston's is 58 and a half. It's the biggest. I will say I have heard and read a lot of people saying they're the undisputed favorites to make the finals.

I think those are two different things, being the number one seed and making the finals. And I am not crowning Oklahoma City with the latter quite yet. I think they have a much better chance to get there than they did last year. And I think they were, frankly, more competitive against Dallas than people will remember in the second round. They got an easy matchup in the first round without Zion on the Pelicans. But, you know, look, I think...

Dallas is still going to be there. We can debate whether they got better and by how much in the exchange of players they got. Minnesota is going to be interesting. Out went one major rotation player in Kyle Anderson and a few other guys who played now and then. And in came a bunch of question marks, including Rob Dillingham and Joe Ingles and Terrence Shannon. But...

They have another year under their belts. And Ant has another year under his belt. They kind of have proof of concept. It's interesting. There are a lot of people around the league who are still like, are we sure they're not going to trade Cat at some point soon? And I'm like, I don't think they can do that. I think if they lost in the first round, different conversation. They got to the conference finals. And Denver, you know, the KCP thing was met with such –

just criticism and disappointment and understandably so on the heels of Bruce Brown. And obviously Daron Holmes tearing his Achilles, you know, I don't know how much that affects them this year, but it's a, it's a tough blow for a young guy. I like to Sarich signing for them. And I have been, you can look at my 10 things column from December. I think Julian Strother has a chance to be good. And he he's averaging 29 points a game in two summer league games. He looks great. And I'm just like, if Murray's healthy and I got Jokic, I'm,

I'm not just like shoving them down to, well, they're clearly behind Oklahoma City Thunder in the West pecking order. Now they might be behind the Oklahoma City Thunder in regular season wins, but playoff equity, I would be very careful just seeing the KCP Bruce Brown double blow and thinking, oh boy, Denver, like they got to rebuild their own Yoke. I guess it's like, I still think they're right there, but Oklahoma City is going to be awesome.

On the Nuggets, we oversimplify playoffs sometimes to say best player wins in a series, but the Nuggets have the best player in the world. And so you kind of have to start, you have to put them in those conversations. Okay, pick a loser who's not the Clippers. The Lakers. Oh! They didn't do much to improve. Their window is closing and they kind of turned themselves into a sideshow.

And I feel, I actually feel pretty, I think they're doing Ronnie who, for people who follow this stuff much more closely than I do, kind of before the heart problems and stuff like that, was a perfectly credible prospect. I think they've done him a tremendous disservice by the way, not just the fact of picking him, but the way they've sort of rolled it out. You know, for every time you say it's the...

you know, my, this isn't a nepotism thing, t-shirt is asking a lot of questions answered by my t-shirt kind of thing. I think that they've gone so over the top

in this that they've, they've really, they've really put a target on, on the, the, on the, the, the poor kids back. And, you know, and it's sort of detracting from them being just a basketball team. And I still don't really feel like they've addressed sort of some of the fundamental problems that they've basically had since the championship year in terms of the model for building around LeBron and Anthony Davis is very clear is you get some defense, you get some shooting, you get some,

And do they have a single player who can do both? They haven't changed their team. I mean, you know, I think Hachimura couldn't come close to that. I still like the quartet of Reeves, Hachimura, LeBron, and AD. But to your point, I mean, it's not enough in the West. Their over-under is 44.5. That sounds about right to me. Golden State's, by the way, 42.5 on ESPN bet. All of these are ESPN bet numbers. That's pretty low.

But, you know, Bronny, you will note, listeners of this podcast, that I have not really talked about Bronny at all. And I saw Stephen A. Smith talk about it a little bit on his podcast this morning, I think. It's uncomfortable. It's an uncomfortable topic to talk about because, you know, we had on NBA Today the other day, we did a segment on Jalen Brown, the lip reading of Jalen Brown on Bronny. And I just kind of was like...

What is the expiration date on this where we can just let him be a developmental player outside of the spotlight? Because I don't know his game well enough to give you a breakdown of what he can and can't do. And are we going to do this every, every summer league game, every time somebody makes a comment about him, because I just, it's just a cycle of noise that I don't think is helping anybody. And yeah,

I don't feel bad for Bronny James. He's got a great life. He's healthy after an incredibly scary health incident. I just, I wish I like, I, I don't talk about second round picks really who don't play in NBA rotations. Like that's just not my job typically. And I, it's just an uncomfortable talk, but I agree. The Lakers haven't done enough. My other loser was going to be the heat, but I've talked about them enough. Seth part. Now you've got to go do stuff in Las Vegas. Any parting thoughts?

No, I've managed to not lose myself in the morass of the dual gyms here, which has been a key to surviving 10 days out here so far. So hopefully that can continue and, you know, enjoying. This is the 20th year of Vegas Summer League, and I think this is the 16th that I've been here. And it's more like the first half of them as a fan and sort of the second half as fans.

sort of more professionally. And it continues to be fascinating to see how it's developed from, you know, the late aughts when there was it was just one gym and there's 200 people there and you could hear everything everyone said to now being this like big extravaganza.

Well, next year we could have a headliner on almost on par with Wemby two years ago and Cooper Flagg if he ends up playing summer league for a game, you know, whatever it ends up being. So it'll be crazy next year. Seth Partnow, by the mid-range theory, it's about the evolution of shot selection in the general NBA strategy. You know him, you love him. Thank you, sir. Thank you as well, Zach.

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All right. Speaking of the Milwaukee Bucks, Jamal Collier, our man on the scene with the Bucks. It's been a busy week for that team. For you, we have news that Chris Middleton underwent surgery on not one ankle, but both ankles and is expected to be ready for the start of the regular season after a season and a few seasons, actually, in which his health has been

Kind of a major wild card for the Bucs since the 21-22 season, really since the title that they won. And then on the same day or maybe the day before, one of the sneaky, important free agency signings of the summer, the Bucs signed Gary Trent Jr. for the minimum, a one-year deal, which will be hard to re-sign on a one-year minimum deal because they won't have a lot of free agency rights on him. But I don't care. The Bucs shouldn't care.

I don't want to say this year is now or never for this iteration for the Bucs, but it's close given that Chris Middleton has a player option for 25-26. Brooke Lopez will be an unrestricted free agent. I love the Gary Trent Jr. signing. We can dive into that. Jamal, let's just get to the important stuff. What do we need to know about Chris Middleton?

Well, Zach, this was injuries that were lingering from the season. In February, he landed on Kevin Durant's ankle, shooting a jump shot. And it was the left ankle at that point for Middleton. And that really, he missed, I think, a chunk of games, 16 games right away. But that lingered pretty much all season he was dealing with injuries.

sort of maintenance and things. He called it the worst ankle sprain he ever had. Then in the playoffs, in game two against the Pacers, he also injured his right ankle. In that game, he was questionable for the next day and really held out of practice. We ended up playing that series, and remember, he was pretty good for the Bucs to close that out. But, you know, as you hit on it, I mean, I think that once again, another off-season procedure for Middleton, you know, it was the wrist injury.

He had the knee injury in 22. You know, he last year kind of came off the start of the season. He was on that really strict minutes restriction where he's playing like, you know, less than 20 minutes a game every night and really didn't get going until probably even after Christmas. Then he had another injury. That's the ankle injury that set him back. And as you said, he's just not a guy who is a getting any younger and

And he has had so many nagging injuries here in these last couple of years that just add up to a guy who I think right now the Bucs are saying in the aftermath of this surgery that he should be ready for the start of the season. That, you know, it was just a cleanup that he obviously played well in the playoffs and they are optimistic about what he'll be on day one.

But we've heard that before and we've heard and seen that kind of rhetoric with Chris and then not seeing him play a whole lot in the regular season. Now, if he plays and he's ready for the playoffs and he's doing what he did in that first round, I'm not sure how much that matters other than the fact that you said like there is a lot of pressure on this team to start clicking to get all this figured out because a lot of the, you know, I don't want to say excuses, but the things that, you know, into last year, why this feels like almost year one.

with Dame, with Doc, after so much change over the past year. But there's some pressure on this team to stay afloat with the rest of the Eastern Conference. Yeah, last year was as big and as weird of a one-season disaster that I can remember any team having. The Adrian Griffin situation was a mess from day negative 10. I mean, almost immediately it was a mess. Before immediately, it was a mess. Chris's health was a mess.

Dame's adaptation to the Bucs after a right before the season trade that robbed them of any time to get going was a mess. Dame admitted that his sort of personal emotional adjustment to being away from his kids and all of that was very understandably, very difficult for him. Doc Rivers comes in. The defense gets better. The offense doesn't really get any better than they get to the playoffs. Giannis misses the whole playoffs. Dame misses two games. And now Giannis,

I feel like they're the forgotten powerhouse of the Eastern Conference and that I'm guilty of it too because the Knicks loaded up. Knicks are awesome. The Sixers loaded up and are continuing to load up, rounding out their supporting cast. A-plus offseason for Philadelphia. As Bobby Marks has said, it will go down as...

And it took, it took Paul George going there. Like they're, they're one, they're one decision by the Clippers away from not nailing the off season. There are one Clippers give them the fourth year. All of a sudden the Sixers are scrambling for plan C and D, but they got Paul George masterclass in using cap space. Um,

And the Bucs, who kind of entered last year as an inner circle contender, everyone was very excited about Dame and Giannis. And I will die on the hill, Jamal Collier, that yes, it's embarrassing that Drew Holiday won a championship for the Boston Celtics. Yes, it's embarrassing when both current and past Celtics are like, hey, thanks. Thanks for the championship. It's embarrassing. I think it's a trade they had to make. I understand why they made it. But if you're going to talk about who's under the most pressure this season,

It's either Milwaukee or Philadelphia in the East. New York has a little window now, thanks to Brunson's extension coming in under market. Well, under market, as I thought about earlier in the week, Boston just repeated, Boston just won a title and is trying to repeat, but they have the title sort of under their belts. And then you have this young up and coming Cleveland, Orlando, Indiana. It's like found money, Milwaukee, Milwaukee,

Again, it might be melodramatic to say the last shot for this particular team because Giannis has three more seasons guaranteed on his deal. But Chris is getting older. Brooke is getting old. Brooke is old. Dame is getting older. There's no reason to expect any of these players to get better with age. There's reason to expect him to get worse with age. But I'll tell you, as Perk says, if ifs were fifths, we'd all be drunk. The ifs get tiresome with Chris Middleton's health.

But this team is still here and they're still a powerhouse. And I think they belong in the same discussion with all these other teams, because you roll out a starting five of Dame, Gary Trent Jr., Chris Middleton, Giannis, and Brook.

I think that's a better starting five than they had at any time last year. Do you expect Gary Trent Jr. to start? I do, based on what I've heard. But do you? Yeah, I do too. And I think that he just seems like such a natural fit for a replacement for Malik Beasley. He can assume the same shooting role. He's a knockdown three-point shooter, 40% shooter on catch and shoot.

And what I think also you have some versatility, Zach, the depth that they added. I like the other minimum signings. You add DeLon Wright as your backup point. He kind of replaces those Pat Bev campaign minutes. I like that as a better option going forward. I like Torian Prince. Is the Pat Bev podcast going to continue abroad? I think your subscription is good for if it's abroad or here. If you hit that subscribe button, you can listen to it wherever.

OK, the you know, so I think the totality of their team. And as you said, I'm with you on the Dame trade and that ultimately it's the reasons for why you made the trade. I think you had to make it. And I think that where that you hit on a couple of times where they were under Boone Hoser, under Drew Holiday with that iteration of the team, it just kind of felt like they had plateaued. And I think another reason you can say it was a win for the Bucs is that Giannis ultimately signed that extension.

And you do have him, you know, for the next three seasons. But, you know, this team, I think they're saving the upside or the positive spin for them. If you're a Bucs fan, are you looking to why the Bucs still should have hope? And again, it is an if because of the age for the guys. But you get to a playoff series and even against all those East teams, you're still going to have the best player on the floor, maybe two of the best three players.

There's on the floor, some combination of that. And as far as guys you want with the ball in their hands at the end of the game, Dame has hit some incredible big playoff shots. Chris Middleton, you know, showing that playoff series against the Pacers. Again, a reminder of how big of a playoff performer he has been.

for them. And then you got Giannis and there's just one guy who you know is going to come at you 100 miles an hour at any time when he's healthy. And that's been a big if because these last two post seasons now, you know, in the Miami first round loss and in Indian, he's alluded to, you know, the fact after the season, he kind of says something to the fact of do I need to change my regular season

routine in order to be healthy in the playoffs or does that you know what exactly that looks like um but you know again what i was the point i was making is they're still going to have guys who really trust at the end of the game with the ball in those big moments and when you have that kind of top end talent with some better fitting pieces around them because they i just said that dame trach happened so right before the season that they they had really the team that was built

before with Drew Holiday and just kind of inserted Dame and lost some of the depth of Grayson Allen and such around it. I think they have a better fitting team

around their pieces now sneakily with not a whole lot to work with this offseason. Yeah, I think Gary Trent is just better than Malik Beasley. He's just a better player. He's a 40%, 39% career three-point shooter. He can shoot on the move. He can shoot from really any part of the arc. He's not a corner shooter. He's mostly above the break shooter. He can shoot going left. He can shoot going right.

And he can pump one dribble, make the next play. He's not a great passer, but they don't need him to be a great passer. And he's a significantly better defender than Malik Beasley. Now, last year, part of the reason the Raptors kind of soured on him was that his defensive intensity and execution, for whatever reason, was not what it had been the year before under Nick Nurse when he was like up toward the top of the league in deflections and just dialed in at an entirely new level. That player is in there somewhere still, right?

and that player playing at even 90%, 85% of the kind of defensive intensity he had that season is an upgrade over Malik Beasley in a meaningful way for the team. Also, he's 6'5", with a 6'9", wingspan, I think, so he can guard some threes. The Dame-Trent-Chris trio...

In some matchups is going to play out as a little bit small, but I really liked this starting five. And I've said it before, like it was a limited sample because of injuries and everything was a mess last year. The bucks were like plus 15 per 100 possessions with Dame, Chris, Giannis and Brooke.

all on the floor. And you could see the glimpses of chemistry where like, you know, Chris loves that left side pick and roll, empty side pick and roll with Giannis. He comes and takes that hand off, kicks it over to Dame. Dame runs a two-man game with Brooke Lopez. And the thing is just moving side to side. But the thing that never, it came in fits and starts, but it never clicked, clicked, clicked, clicked. And this is what I said, like the Bucs just never clicked at all last year for a two-week period. But the thing that never clicked

consistently game to game, week to week was the Dame Giannis two man game in, in, in either direction. I mean, people mostly think of it as Dame handling Giannis screening. Obviously we did and we'll see a lot of that. We should see more, but it can work in other ways on and off the ball. And I wonder sort of Doc Rivers year two, year one and a half Dame Giannis year two, like what's the vibe about that? Is that, is that,

we're going to see more of? Does Giannis want to do more of it? Where are we on that? Well, he started it. Like you said, it never really got...

every time they got it started and they got going, somebody would go out. Dane would miss some games or Giannis missed a chunk of time at the end of the season. I don't know if you remember, this was maybe late March, the end of the season. They had a game against the Lakers. But ultimately they lost without LeBron. And the Lakers were playing without LeBron. AD had a monster game. But they were the Bucs where I remember leaving that game that night. And they were, I don't want to say okay with the loss, but they were excited still about the fact that they had run in that fourth quarter and really the second half.

The Dame and Giannis pick and roll had looked the best it had all season. And they ran their offense. They were set. I think both of them had double-digit assists in the game. They really operated in that kind of way, like you said, that we never saw before.

the entire season and it was the first thing that everybody when that trade happened a year ago they said oh man i can't wait to see this damianis pick and roll and i think that was one of the things that really set them back you know when you look at the start of the season and the coaching change that they end up making is that you know yannis and damian both admitted they didn't practice it they didn't do it a whole lot early on in the start of the season before doc got there and you

players on the team and doc has literally told me like when doc got here the first couple of things he did in practice he would just clear everybody out okay damon yannis on one side run a pick and roll let's set it again you know let's set it again

And then reset, you know, and just like trying to get beat it almost into their like the repetitive repetition into them to make it natural. And I think that every time they started to sort of figure it out or have a moment of chemistry on the floor, something happened to derail that or Chris Middleton would be missing. They'd have to sort of, you know, integrate something else. So, again, these are problems that they had last year that I don't think are magically going to go away because we're talking about players who are all, you know,

approaching 30, 30 and above. And that's one of the things with Gary Trent that I also like. He's only 25. Let's talk about an injection of youth to this team that get out and run in transition with, you know, it's just Dame or with Giannis potentially. And really just a guy, as you said, who's going to be motivated because he did sign a better and better one-year contract. You know, there is an idea that play well, a chance to be on a contender.

and you have a chance to sort of recoup your value next year. So I think it's a good bet. And like you said, I think it's just kind of a home run signing for what they needed to insert into that starting lineup and hope to propel. But there is an excitement, as you said, about the Dame and Giannis and Doc Rivers really trying to put his stamp on that

portion of the team. And the chemistry between the two of them is not just that two-man game. They should have a better inverted pick-and-roll game with Dame screening for Giannis. They should have a better off-ball game screening for each other. Some of it is transition too, like Dame running into trail threes when Giannis rushes up the court. And you saw glimpses of all that. Let's go through the rotation. So I'm going to guess Trent starts. So that's Dame, Trent, Chris, Giannis, Brooke starting five. Then you get to the bench. And to your point,

I think they're going to be able to cobble a decent bench, even if doc trusts, none of the young guys, like none of the third year guys, no Bochamp, no AJ automatic or whatever, you know, dairy bird or whatever people want to call AJ green, uh, Andre Jackson jr. I love Andre Jackson jr. I think they should be investing minutes in him and time in him. Maybe they will, maybe they won't, but you figure there, if he's going veteran, uh,

You figure locked into bench minutes are Bobby Portis, of course, Pat Connaughton, of course. And although that was a much rumored trade package throughout the season, Torian Prince on a minimum deal is a home run. And now he's I wouldn't call him a three and D player. He's like three and kind of D. But like for what he is, he's good. And he helped the Lakers last year.

And then you got DeLon, right? Do you play him? Do you not play him? Probably in the regular season you do. But when the games are, when it's go time, you want at least one, if not two of Dame, Chris and Giannis on the floor to prop up those bench units. That's, that's a workable rotation. You made a face when I said Pat Connerton, he did seem to age like five years in one year last season. And I'm not entirely sure what happened. Cause he's not that old. Do we think he's on the outs? Yeah.

No, just that Pat really just didn't have a great year last year. And I think some of that was the role he was being used in early on. Some of that was just, you know, he just didn't have a great year. And I think that where he slots into this rotation and how much Doc ultimately plays

you know, continues to trust him and continues to play him, I think is a question that I have. Because I do think that Andre Jackson showed a lot of promise and there are some people in the organization that really are excited about what they've seen from him. You know, again, his glimpses in the playoffs were small, but there was some encouragement. I think it's, you know, when they had to get down

Well, and also the issue with him and the issue with DeLon Wright, whose shot goes up and down partially with his willingness to actually take threes. I've always been I like DeLon Wright. I've always had a soft spot for him. But the like, can you play those guys with Giannis? Like, can you play it in Andre Jackson? I'm actually junior. What did he end up shooting from three? I feel like he made a decent percentage of his corner threes last year. He just doesn't take any and nobody guards him.

Yeah. But can you play those guys alongside Giannis, who is obviously at this point, you're just he's just never going to become a reliable long range jump shooter mid Rangers come and go. But I think that's an open question in terms of, you know, which of the young guys can earn minutes and why Doc defaulted early to AJ Green? Because like, at least I know that dude can go out there and knock down shots.

Yeah. And I think, you know, that's going to be an open question all season as far as how much and where Doc will play some of the younger players. I do think that, you know, this team is still is going to mine these guys signing on these vet minimums and see what else potentially they could add, you know,

But they've liked at times having another center to come off the bench and sort of play those backup minutes, you know, along with Bobby, you know, Giannis and Brooke and not just delighting the load on Giannis at center at times. And Doc really likes the idea of allowing Giannis to be the free roamer.

and playing him with another big on the floor. So I would be on the lookout to see if Milwaukee can find it, even an invite to training camp to see if they can find some more depth there. But again, I'm with you in the fact that

Health is going to be a big question for this team. Ultimately, they're going to have guys who are going to be in and out of the lineup, I think, through the course of an 82-game season. How much can they piece together with those bench units and stay afloat? If you're looking at the top of the East and you figure those teams are going to win a lot of games in Boston and Philly, the Knicks, even Indiana is a young team that wins a lot of regular season games. You just want to get into that top six or even home court advantage in the first round. I think that

So that'll be my question for the Bucs regular season wise. But if they can get those guys healthy into the playoffs, like you said, I think they're still they still belong in that conversation among the other contenders in the conference. Well, look, I mean, the East, there's there's kind of a hard line of demarcation from eighth to ninth.

in the East. You've got Boston, New York, in whatever order, Philly, Milwaukee, Cleveland, Orlando, Indiana, Miami, and then there's a big drop-off. So, like, look, you missed the wrong guy for 20 games, 25 games. You know, you could be at risk going into the play, and to me, Milwaukee's above that. Milwaukee should be

I mean, Boston is going to win so many games. He went with Porzingis missing time, but Milwaukee should be in the race for the number two seed if they're healthy. And the health thing applies to everyone. It applies to Joel Embiid. It applies to OGN and Obi's been hurt all the time in his career. Julius Randle just came off a big injury. It applies to everybody. But look, I said two weeks ago,

I had the Bucks and the Heat as kind of my losers, among my losers in free agency and in the offseason because they just hadn't done anything. And you had these other teams in the East loading up and loading up and loading up, and the Heat still really hadn't done anything and ended up losing Caleb Martin in kind of a disastrous turn of events for both them and him.

The Bucs have now done stuff. And Gary Trent Jr., if this team has a good season and gets far in the playoffs, I bet we're going to look back at that signing and say that was maybe one of the most important little signings of the whole offseason. That dude is a good player. I don't quite know how it went so sideways last year and how there was absolutely no market for him this year. It's a little bit strange. But look, they've always played Boston well. And I just, you know,

And I remember saying on this podcast like two weeks ago, what is the case for optimism in Milwaukee? Like if you want it to be optimistic, what is it? They're just getting older. Chris Middleton is still injury prone. All that stuff is still true, but –

they've rounded out their roster pretty well and i think it is easy to get caught up in the moment of all of these teams doing exciting stuff in the offseason and the bucks haven't done exciting stuff in the offseason but they still have you honestly still have great and by and the stakes are as big oh we have some breaking news what do we got clippers are sending russell westbrook to and a second round pick and a sign and trade for chris dunn

Oh, wow. The Jazz are expected to buy Westbrook out, clearing the way for him to join the Denver Nuggets. Okay. Well, that's the end of the Russell. We're going to get sidetracked from the Bucs for a second, Jamal. Is that all right? Yeah. Russell Westbrook is going to sign with the Nuggets. Okay. That's weird. I mean, this has been rumored for quite some time. I have already kind of poo-pooed it as not the best idea.

it was very clear that the playoffs were such a disaster for Russ that the Clippers marriage was going to end. And I think what this was was kind of a prolonged standoff between the Clippers and the Nuggets. The Clippers did not want to, the Nuggets did not want to trade for Russell Westbrook on his salary. They were waiting for him to get bought out. This is a vehicle for that to happen. They wrap all these transactions up in one. Chris Dunn is kind of a nice flyer for the Clippers. He's one of the best defensive guards in the league. I'll tell you what the Nuggets are banking on.

The Nuggets are banking on our bench needs an identity. This is a shot at an identity, just rampaging, crazy, frenetic, fast pace. I just don't really believe that it, I have to think about it more, but I just think at this stage of his career, it's kind of a long shot. But, you know, Jokic wanted him and, you know. What does Russ and Jokic look like playing together?

Look, I think anyone can play with Jokic. And Russ, in parts of his career, was a very good cutter. In transition, it could be kind of interesting. Backup point guard is obviously kind of an interesting little spot, a little weak spot for the Nuggets. And if he's coming off the bench, you put Dario Saric, who I think was a good signing for them at the five and have enough shooting around him. It's worth a shot. I just think...

The way I put it to an executive last week was Russ is like hyperactivity just radiates out in every direction. And when it's going badly, ends up hurting your team more than helping your team. Ironically, I was arguing with somebody yesterday.

around this general idea, this person said to me, well, who should the Nuggets sign? If you're low on Russell Westbrook, what backup point guard should they try to get? And I actually said Chris Dunn. I would get Chris Dunn over Russell Westbrook. But it's certainly going to be interesting to watch him play with...

with Jokic and all of them. But look, they also have the luxury of they don't really need Russell Westbrook. If they don't want to play him, they have a totally ready-made identity. It's an experienced team. If he doesn't fit, he doesn't fit. Boy, that's wild. All right, we got some breaking news. Where the hell were we? I don't know. I'm also trying to wrap my mind around that, but that is a fun fit. Here's my thing with the Bucs. So they got Giannis' Zionist extension. He's got three more years locked in. Yeah.

When I say that they may have more at stake in this season than any team in the East, if not the entire NBA, and Philly's up there because, as I've said before, it's time for a real playoff run for Philly. What I mean is...

They don't control their first round pick the bucks until after 2030, all of their picks through 2030 are accounted for. They don't, they don't have a second round pick until 2031. I think they might be one of only two or three teams in the league who don't have an extra pick first or second round coming from any team. And most teams forget about a second round. We have a second from them. What the bucks have, the bucks line is no picks incoming, like not one. And again,

Chris is old. Brooks free agency is coming up. He's old. Dame has what? Two years left. I think. Let me check. Yeah. A lot of miles on him. You know, also. No, no, I'm not. Not two years. I'm saying he's got this year. Oh, yeah. Next year. And then a player option after that. If it's if it's almost 60 million, maybe he takes it. Maybe he doesn't.

Like the clock is ticking. And one of the reasons that the New York trade for Mikhail Bridges was so interesting was because they effectively punted on any chance to acquire Giannis in a trade ever or Embiid or whatever superstar you want to name. And I understand that Giannis just like, this is what's at stake. I mean, this, this could, if this goes badly, it could all go, it could go badly on multiple levels pretty fast, but this is, this is still a championship level, um,

a championship level team as long as they're healthy i think i think i have been guilty of it others have been guilty of it in the hoopla of new york and philly justifiably great off seasons i think this team can still make the finals in the east i'm not going to pick them i'm going to pick boston but that gary trent signing could be a big big deal that's a great move by the bucks all their chips are in as you've said you know when you especially with the dame trade last year

Their picks are all gone. And this year, they really did not have a lot of avenues with the way the CBA is to improve their team. They couldn't, you know, compile salaries to trade for somebody. They don't believe they had any exceptions. You know, they didn't have any cap room. They only had their draft picks to make. So it was...

For them to be able to still turn this into a serviceable to even a good offseason building around, I think, is a win for them. And now you just got to bet for health and bet on continuity being a win.

And all the things that they said, you know, she talked about the pressure. We didn't mention Doc Rivers. There's a lot of pressure also going to be surrounding on him and his coaching seat and how he adjusts, because a lot of people looked at the records of 30 and 13, you know, with Adrian Griffin and before Doc got in and, you know, whatever it was, a couple games under 500 after Doc and obviously losing in the first round. And this team is, you know, off to a slow start.

Chris isn't, you know, maybe where they want him to be if they're sort of 500-ish around Christmas and approaching there. Like, that's when the pressure really starts to get dialed in for this team, I think, pretty quickly. And I think to your point, that's why this team being...

That's why the pressure is on for this team really from the jump here, because they have got to start proving that they can be amongst those other teams in the East. Look, and Giannis keeps re-upping with the team. There keeps being this breathless speculation of what he's going to do. Is this going to be a fair? And, you know, look, I am just the bearer of things that happen in the NBA. Every team with draft assets or cap space or a big market that tends to draw teams, draw superstars rather,

is rooting for the Bucs to fail and rooting for that, the biggest domino in the league to eventually fall. And Giannis keeps just saying, I'm not playing dominoes. I'm, I'm resigning. I'm resigning. But there is always this sort of haze of, of,

Nervousness around it Like Mark Lassery sells his stake In the team what does that mean Is he is that A red alert for whatever reason And he keeps re-upping that doesn't mean It's going to be forever I hope It would be awesome if he were A one team buck that's what I'm hoping for But it doesn't mean it's forever and this is a massively Important season I'm still trying to Get over Russell Westbrook going to the Nuggets even though Even though that was much much Rumored I mean

Sure, I guess. We know what their starting five is going to be.

And the bench is going to be a bunch of young guys and Russ and staggering minutes with Jokic and Murray. And I guess it's worth a shot. The Russ who played in the regular season for the Clippers was almost a neutral to maybe slight plus player. And the one area where he always is going to help you is rebounding. Now, Nuggets don't need a ton of rebounding help, particularly when Jokic is on the floor. But the Russ, I don't know what happened to him in the playoffs and –

It was very clear that the divorce with the Clippers was coming. His, his Russ's most famous moment, arguably Jamal. I don't know if you remember what happened in Denver where he broke Oscar Robertson's triple double record, or did he break the record and clinch averaging a triple double in the same game? I think he broke the record for most triple doubles in a season and hit a three at the buzzer from the left wing or almost a buzzer to win the game for Oklahoma city in Denver. Um,

What a day. NBA is never, never. Yeah. Are the Bucks, are the Bucks going to be watching the Olympics very closely, by the way? Oh, yeah. I mean, I think, honestly, it meant a lot to Giannis also to get Greece to be there. For sure. You know, just obviously the journey that he's had. I mean, it's one of those kind of reminders of all the

you know just the the guys these guys play for the championship and they play for the NBA finals too but there's a lot of country pride and pride for Giannis to be able to get Greece to that spot to that national stage so um you know and obviously I had one more Giannis uh point when you were making as far as teams you know lining up and sort of re-upping but um

I think 1A, you're 100% correct. The team is also just natural and also smart business for them to also be looking around and say, how is that situation going to work out with Giannis? How is the situation going to work out with such and such in-round league? And I think talking to execs about that,

their eyes are always on what's going on milwaukee because they see the same thing that we see and they see the team uh you know is old and as it gets reached as a veteran team that kind of had a window right now and how long that window will be open but you know as you continue to say and i think the bucks fans always like to reiterate yannis a loves milwaukee he loves the thing that it's done for him as a

as a person, an organization, his family. And I think that if all things go well, like I think that he's continued to show that he wants to commit to this organization, but he also wants to win. He wants to win badly and he's super competitive. And he, I think in the last couple of years, we have seen just another example of the,

of trying to win with Giannis, whether it be with the coaching change, whether it be making a huge Damian Lillard trade, despite having a team that was already a contender and trying to just figure out new ways to keep this roster moving forward and pushing forward. And I think that's the challenge with Giannis is that he puts pressure and holds, I think, organizations to account to say, no, no, no, we're not, you know, while I'm in my prime and in these years of marketing,

of my career right now to maximize this window. I want to win and be in that conversation every single year and not take a step back. I think that's the reality for the Bucs to continue to go forward in that way. And I think that's why the league is also looking at saying, okay, what if the Bucs are not in that position? What does that mean? Well, look, here's what I know about the Bucs. Giannis is the first team all NBA player. I don't have to worry about Giannis. If he's on the floor, he's going to be incredible on both ends of the floor.

If I'm Giannis and I'm looking around, to me, I'm what? I need Dame and Middleton. I...

The Bucs need Giannis to be able to look at those two guys and say, I'm confident I've got three good seasons with them left because Brooke is on his way to the next stage of his career. He has been for a while and he keeps being very productive. And the roadmap of the young guys, like there's some intriguing young guys here. I mean, I don't know much about A.J. Johnson and Tyler Smith, the guys they just drafted, but they're probably not going to be ready to play this year. You know, we talked about Beauchamp and Jackson Jr.,

and all that, I don't think Giannis can look at that and say, well, I see the roadmap for if this team ages out faster than I expect or faster than I hope, I see the roadmap to the next iteration of the Bucs. I don't think he can say that. And so those two guys, I think Chris is 32, almost 33. Dame just turned 34.

Can I, do we have a couple more elite seasons together? And like, it's not optional. They need those guys to play at their peak levels around Giannis to have a chance to win because the East is that good. But that, that scenario is totally plausible. Like I think as Seth Partnow said in the beginning of this podcast, I think we dismissed the bucks in the top of the East conversation at our own peril. I think they should, they should remain there.

As long as they're healthy. Any parting thoughts? Anything on the guy, Johnson and Smith? Anything we didn't get to? Just that we didn't talk a whole lot about Dame. And I do buy, as you said, bounce back. You know, again, it wasn't an all-star last year. He had a solid season. But I do think that

There was an adjustment for him. But you know it when you see it. He just wasn't the same guy. He wasn't close to the same guy. Yeah, and I think that we'll see a more comfortable Dame. And he's talked about the sort of training in last offseason and such. I think that there's a good bet to say that Dame will be a better player this year. And I think that'll do also a pretty big lift for this team. Apparently, Chris Dunn is going to sign a three-year, $17 million deal, according to some reporting out there with the Clippers. Yeah.

Being here in Chicago, I remember when the Chris Dunn experience didn't go well and he was out of town. It's nice to see him continue to stay in the league and get a contract now. I think that's worth a shot for the Clippers. Not to belabor it, I just don't understand. Did you see the ESPN bet over-unders that came out today? Did you see what the Clippers line was? Take a shot. What do you think the Clippers line was? 40...

40.5%. So Vegas has the Clippers as a sub-500 team, which I think is correct.

um chris dunn's a nice flyer just like some of the other guys they've taken flyers on like batum coming back derrick jones jr coming in just doesn't change their life but he is one of the best defensive guards in the league and if he can stabilize a little bit offensively i mean that's three years 17 is now in this new cap environment that's like backup slash almost emergency point guard money so rust to the rust to the nuggets is is wild and uh

I guess they're going to just try to introduce a little degree of wildness. Okay, Jamal Collier, thank you for your insight on the Bucs. I will see you soon, my friend. Thanks a lot, Nick.

Jim Harbaugh makes his long-awaited return to the Monday Night Lights. Touchdown, L.A. And the Chargers add to their lead. As the Chargers meet rookie Marvin Harrison Jr. and the Cardinals in the down. Murray scrambling. Harrison, 60 yards, touchdown. Chargers-Cardinals. Monday, October 21st at 9 p.m. Eastern. Streaming exclusively on ESPN+. Sign up now at ESPN+.com.