Nuggets Knot Series at 2, Pacers Cruise in Game 4 against the Knicks, and the Hawks Win the Lottery
01:22:50 Share

And now, The Low Post.

A proud champion, not just on the ropes, but completely unraveling at home in game two. Helpless, helpless against the best defense of the NBA without Rudy Gobert in that game, the defensive player of the year. Throwing one tantrum after another. Michael Malone berating the officials, not getting teed up. Jamal Murray throwing a heat pack onto the court, not getting teed up. Not getting suspended, not getting ejected, which I was fine with, actually. Um...

particularly after the referee crew chief Mark Davis said I would not have ejected him from the game after the game. I didn't think a suspension was going to come after that. But just looking by all accounts like they had met their match, like the team they feared, not feared, but had been eyeing all along is like, ooh, that's a dangerous team. That team's got some stuff that makes our stuff hard. We don't know how to deal with it that well. Going to Minnesota, having to win at least one road game to keep this series alive is

against a crowd that you knew was going to be beyond feverish. And I thought Bobby Marks, I picked Denver to win in seven. I picked Denver to come out of the West all year. And I thought they looked, if not broken, then distraught and frazzled. And I went into this two games in Minnesota thinking, I think they'll get one. I think they're a proud enough champion and a good enough team with the best player in the NBA. I think they'll get one, but I think they're in trouble. And I think that's...

about the best they can hope for. Maybe they win at home and it's Minnesota in six. They didn't get one. They got two. And they got two emphatically. Absolutely blew the Wolves out of the stadium in game three. And in a tense, strategic, nip and tuck game with great shooting from Aaron Gordon, who barely missed a shot in the two games in Minnesota.

With Jokic just controlling the game from start to finish on offense, combined 59 points, 21 rebounds, 16 assists in games three and four. And with Jamal Murray, after shooting horribly, after dealing with a calf injury, after throwing the heat pack, after looking like a shell of himself, coming alive in the last two games, making a bunch of just classic Jamal Murray preposterous jumpers.

The Denver Nuggets won game four. Just, it felt like the whole game with Anthony Edwards putting together a masterpiece. 44 points on 15 of 23 or 16 of 24. I don't even remember. I lost track.

It felt like the run was coming. The run was coming. The run was coming. And every time Denver stiff-armed it with a huge shot, a Jokic floater, a Murray jumper, an Aaron Gordon corner three, a monster Christian Brown wing three off a Murray Jokic pick and roll. And that Murray Jokic pick and roll, we'll talk about it.

Boy, did it sing loudly in Minnesota. This is why we watch sports. To see a champion push to the brink, dig deep, and say, we are not going out like that in Minnesota. You're still young-ish. You're still inexperienced. You got some pressure at home in front of these fans who expect you to win these games. Carl Towns, you're liable to lose control of your limbs at any moment. We think that moment could be tonight in Game 4 when the stumbling, bumbling...

Rumbling could start again. What an awesome two games in Minnesota for Denver. What an awesome series this has been. Through four games, the combined margin is Denver plus two. Through four games, Minnesota has five more free throw attempts than Denver. Through four games, Minnesota has committed one fewer turnover than Denver. Through four games, both teams have the same number of offensive rebounds.

This is an awesome series and we are set up for a classic finish. Give me your give me your takeaways from these two games. I was wrong. I thought I thought I thought Denver was fractured and would only get one of these games. And they just went out there and got them both. Man, what a series.

Yeah. I mean, my, my reaction was after the two games in Denver, um, I thought they were in deep trouble, uh, deep trouble enough that I actually started writing their off season article to a point. I didn't not the full article, but as far as, Hey, you know, don't, don't discount this team. The window hasn't closed. Jokic is under contract for the next, whatever, four years, all that stuff.

I was probably more surprised in Denver's resiliency in game, in the Sunday game, because Michael Malone came out and they asked him about Jamal Murray as far as the turnaround from game three on a Friday to game four on a Sunday based on the calf, him recovering.

because there was almost like a week, a week off between games two and three. So how fresh would Murray be? I think what benefited from them, Zach is a little bit when he picked up those two fouls in the, in the first quarter and him being able to go to the bench and maybe get a little bit more refreshed. And they were, I wrote it down here. They, you know, as far as surviving the Minnesota was a plus two and Murray went out and,

they survived the Murray minutes, plus seven in the Murray minutes when he went to the bench there. So I think that played a huge role. I just thought that every time, and of course what happened at the end of the second quarter played a huge role as far as basically with the eight-point swing and 33 seconds. I just thought every time that Minnesota had an answer,

And I thought that Anthony Edwards would have to go for about 50 for them to win. He had, what, 44, I think. Denver had an answer. Whether it was Aaron Gordon, who was tremendous, whether it was a KCP three, whether it was the bench, welcome to the playoffs, right? And welcome Michael Malone trusting the bench. And it wasn't like all of a sudden, it wasn't the young bench. It was Reggie Jackson,

It was Justin holiday and it was Christian Brown who had playoff experience from last year. Three guys scores, 27 points going into, um, into that game. They had average. I think I posted, it was like 16 points a game. The bench fewest minutes among all players that gave the holiday minutes gave them a huge, but I think he's a nine for 13 from three huge, huge spark.

And as I said, like every time Minnesota got it to seven and then all of a sudden, whether it was Jokic, whether it was Gordon, whether it was Murray, then it's back to nine, back to 11 here. And I'm interested to see what Minnesota has for for game five, because let's face it. I mean, Carl Anthony Towns was not good. I mean, he was.

Not good. I mean, he started the game over seven. You know, he finished, I think one of the, one of the worst shooting performances that he's had in a long, long time. Five of 18. Yeah. And so I'm going to, I'm interested to see, cause this is, this is uncharted territory a little bit for Minnesota, as far as not being in the spot to, to on the road, having won two games already in Denver and in a Western, in a Western conference semifinals against the defending champs.

And a lot of sweep talk after game two. A lot of, is this the NBA Finals? And is Minnesota thus the favorite now to win the title? And I do think, taken together, these teams, given how Boston has been a little bit uneven. It's funny with Boston. They play early tonight, so we're not going to talk much about it this year. It's funny how...

Like you just feel like Boston's not playing that well and then they win by like 12 in Cleveland like a road win by double digits is a pretty good win. I didn't think they played particularly well on offense. I thought their defense was great. But if you want to say that this is the de facto NBA finals to date, I don't you know, I think that's a little disrespectful to the Thunder the Mavericks and Celtics, but whatever. Yeah.

And they, Minnesota did not take to that talk and that pressure and those expectations very well. Denver played fantastically on both ends of the floor. Statistically games three and four, they were elite on offense and their defense held Minnesota to a very stingy number. Some of that was Minnesota. I think getting a little out of sorts offensively, we'll talk about that. But you know, Denver, everything is hard. Like Minnesota makes everything hard.

Denver has to play. Denver had to summon a level of physicality and precision and speed that no other team, not in their playoff run last year, not so far this year, has made them dig deep and summon. And they did it. And they did it. And they're going to have to do it again two more times. And it's going to be hard. Just because they reclaimed a home court advantage, I don't think you start penciling them into the next round. I think this is going seven. But it's going to be hard. And it starts to me with...

You know, they know Minnesota's base defense is going to be Towns on Jokic, Gobert on Gordon, and just have Gobert chilling out around the baseline, ready to contest every lob pass from Jokic to Gordon. Every floater, every attempt at the rim, he's in three places at once. He can block the passing lane and contest your floater at the same time. That's the whole idea of this defense. Through four games, one of which did not include Gobert,

I still think that is their best solve for Denver. They've toyed with other matchups due to foul trouble, due to substitution patterns, due to whatever. Um,

Anytime anybody but Gobert is on the back line, like Jokic went, when they flipped it so that Gobert was on Jokic, Jokic went hard at Gobert. And Gobert makes those shots hard. Guess what? Jokic makes tough shots. And anytime Gobert was on Jokic or Gobert was out of the game and Cat was on the back line, all of a sudden that pass to Gordon was there. One of them almost hit Cat like breeze through his hair. And all of a sudden that decrease in length was,

opens up a lot of stuff for Denver's offense that Colbert closes off. But my point is Denver has digested that through a bunch of games against Minnesota in the last two years. And in games three and game four in Minnesota, they decided we're just going to run our bread and butter. We're going to run the Murray Jokic two-man game. Rudy, we don't care if you're going to be on the back line. We're going to go at you and we're just going to have to make tough shots because, and the key was Jokic set good screens and

And as soon as Murray got a little bit of separation, full speed acceleration sideways toward the sideline. Drag Cat out. Open up the pocket pass to Jokic. And then Jokic, when he gets the ball in that spot, I said this after Game 1, has got to be aggressive. He cannot be thinking pass first because Gobert is ready for that pass. He's got to be aggressive. He's got to shoot floaters. Jamal Murray...

When the opposite happens, when he goes around the screen and Kat stays home on Jokic because they're really paranoid about that Jokic floater. They're really paranoid about Jokic catching that pocket pass and they let Murray get an alley to the rim. He's just got to take it and say, Rudy, you're going to be there. I'm going to have to make some floaters and some layups over you. They ran that pick and roll 29 times in game three, 28 times in game four. That's a high number for Denver. And here's the stat. Game four,

Denver shot 63% on mid-range shots. Game three, Denver shot 48% on mid-range shots. High volumes in both games. Game two, Denver shot 18.8% on mid-range shots. Game one, 33% on mid-range shots. That and a couple of Aaron Gordon threes here and there is the difference between them winning and losing these games. And I thought their approach to that specific defense with Gobert on Gordon was

And I still think there are wrinkles they can do. You've seen more Jokic-Gordon two-man games designed to get Gobert into the action. You've seen – I think the reason Gordon is bringing the ball up more is to get Gobert off of Gordon because they don't – Minnesota does not want Gobert pressuring Gordon bringing the ball up. They want him on the back line. And so it's confused their matchups a little bit. I still think there's counters they can get to. But I think those two guys –

Just put their heads down and said, we're going to have to win this series with tough shots. And damn it, they won games three and four with tough shots. And it was really fun to see two great players who have such great chemistry together facing the best defensive challenges ever faced and rising to it with tough shot making. Well, and you mentioned the ability of Gordon bringing up the ball and kind of relieving some some injuries.

pressure off, uh, off Murray, especially if McDaniels is, is gardening and basically, you know, three quarters of the court here. I thought, you know, Minnesota jumps off to 15, nine, the star, um, you know, everything's going well. And I thought once Denver was able to get stops all of a sudden, it made it harder for Minnesota to pick up half court or three quarters court and made their offense kind of flow, um, you know, a lot better. And,

As you said, you know, you were, you throw out the mid range, the, you know, the mid range number. I mean, I mean, Gordon was what five for six mid range shots. I mean, he was, he was unbelievable here. He had the one crazy, he had the one crazy one from the right wing where, you know, it's interesting. This series is so fascinating because there are two different post-up coverages that the wolves have for Jokic, depending on who's guarding him. If Gobert is guarding Gordon on the back line and Katz on Jokic, then,

They do not double from the perimeter. They just have Gobert kind of lurk back there. And the only help they give is Jokic, you can make the cross-court pass behind Gobert and we can rotate out of that.

When anyone else is on Jokic, whether it's Nas Reid or whoever, or Gobert, they will double or help from shooters. And the Gordon long two that I'm mentioning came in the first scheme where Gobert was on the back line and they kind of gave that pass to Gordon in the weak side corner. And he just made a crazy, like crazy fade away too. I saw, did you see Gobert said Aaron Gordon turned into Kobe Bryant for a minute? I think that's the shot. Well, yeah, I mean that, and you know,

I think, you know, the towns, you know, as you said, five for 18, I just thought Denver made it extremely uncomfortable for him. They kind of pushed him away from the basket. You know, he had a top of three. He really didn't have anyone, you know, in his face, but in any got, you know, then he got going with the foul stuff. I mean, we were talking about it yesterday. Like, you know, he, he commits some of the dump and I mean, I don't want to say dumb, but like stupid fouls, right? Like in any, and then there's like, you can call them stupid. They're stupid fouls. Yeah.

And then reacts to it like, I didn't do it. But yeah, you did, right? And that kind of got him in his head as far as pouting about that, struggling on offense, certainly some lapses on defense. And as great as Edwards was, it's really like Towns is kind of the X factor a little bit here as far as how if they were going to be able to win this series.

I want to talk about Denver's defense against Minnesota's offense. We'll get back to the other end. I agree with you that that's what changed the game in the series is Minnesota. First of all, Denver was fantastic defensively. You know, they're coming up to the level of the screen on ant. The rotations behind it are the, the both just the shading and the rotations are just on point. They're covering a lot of space. They're not making mistakes. Like they're making Anthony Edwards think. And, um,

I'm just curious going forward, like the automatic reads that were there against Phoenix are not, he's not making them at the same speed as he was when it's like, okay, two on the ball, boom, ping over here. You make the next play. I think part of that is great Denver defense and trying to kind of coax him so that the best passes to go bear in space. And they just don't think go bear can beat them making plays in open space.

I think part of it is I want to look a little more deeply at Minnesota's spacing when Anthony Edwards runs a two-man game with Gobert because I feel like the easy release valve passes that were there against Phoenix are not as readily available to him. I think they just need one shooter lifted a little higher on the floor that he can just say, boom, go. One guy in the near corner where if you lean off of him, boom, go. And last night I thought Denver –

spacing on a lot of plays. Like Denver was pretty easily able to zone up like two guys regarding three guys. Like you can get in passing lanes that light way. Michael Porter Jr. got a steal that way. Jokic got a steal that way. Part of it is that Ant may be thinking a little harder under real stress from a real defense, but the reads don't seem as quick and as automatic from him. I thought Jamal... I called him Jamal Crossover for a second. Jamal Crawford made a great point on the broadcast where I think maybe...

on maybe 10 more possessions, five more possessions. Maybe they would just simplify it for Ant and take the screen out of it and just say, you go one-on-one. And if he's got certain matchups, they will send doubles toward him just in isolation. And maybe the reads are easier for him like that. And I also like, give him the ball at the nail against KCP and let him ISO there. He missed a couple of good shots there, but those were the shots he made in game one. But something about...

The speed of those reads has not been there. And I think it's a lot of credit to Denver and Minnesota has been a little hazy on offense. And that's, that's the battle I think that is going to swing the series. If Minnesota can get back into that kind of rhythm. Well, there was a turnover towards the end of the game where he tried to throw a pinpoint pass and Porter jr. Picked it off. And then I think certainly at the end of the second quarter, he,

When he turned a corner and basically like the lane just closed off, right? That resulted in a turnover, the Porter Jr. leak out, the dunk, and then we know the Murray three after that here. I just thought it was a hard 44 points. Like there was nothing easy at all for, you know, there were a couple, you know, certainly a couple, you know, at the rim there, but they made him work for everything.

whether it be, you know, topic key three, you know, and it wasn't the easiest, you know, it wasn't the Monday, the game one or the game two here. And you're right. I think, yeah, you could see Michael Malone as far as, I think there was a play where like, I think Christian Brown didn't help and, you know, call the timeout right after. But they've kind of game planned as far as, you know, we'll give you yours, but as far as, you know, there, there's just not enough spacing right now. Yeah.

It wasn't easy. Some of the threes he makes look easy, and when they go in, it does look easy. But I thought Denver's defense was awesome. And in Game 3, the matchups will be interesting too because in Game 3, Denver was able to keep KCP on him the whole game, and he didn't really kind of go at him with the strength and brutality they had in the first two games. Last night, they switched the matchups pretty early and pretty frequently, putting Gordon on him.

And Gordon's physicality is... It bothers him a little bit. He's got a speed advantage. But the trickle-down effect of that is Michael Porter Jr. on Cat. And I think...

Cat's got to do a little more damage in that matchup than he did in a variety of ways. He did post him once and got a bucket over him, a couple offensive rebounds, but he shot 518 and he was clumsy. He was clumsy again. I think that's interesting. But yeah, I think Minnesota's got to get into a little bit of a better rhythm on offense. And by the way, you mentioned the Denver bench making just enough plays without Peyton Watson, who's been played out of the series because they want more shooting on the floor. Just a couple of numbers. Yeah.

Nikhil Alexander-Walker, who I think is playing okay...

They're minus 49 for the series with him on the floor. Kyle Anderson is minus 30 in 58 minutes and just has not looked comfortable in this series and is a safe hiding place for Jokic on defense. I wonder how much they're going to be able to play him going forward. So Minnesota's bench, which is better, has been better all year. Something about the lineup constructions isn't working as well. But just also, and by the way, you mentioned the end of the second quarter.

It's eight points in 33 seconds, but if you start from when he shoots it, when the first shot goes in, it's eight points in 20 seconds, 22 seconds, which sounds better. This is – so it was – was it a Murray three? Yeah.

And then it was a KCP. It was a KCP. It was KCP three. Yeah. And then a steel and a dunk. Yep. And then with 1.6 seconds left, Nikhil Alexander Walker throws away the inbounds pass. Murray hits a beyond half court shot. This is the playoff of heaves. This heave that's eight points in 22 seconds, completely swings the game, completely changes the feel of the game. This heave Hartenstein's heave earlier in the Pacers series. He makes a half court shot that kind of gets the Knicks a little rhythm. Um,

And Anthony Edwards almost repeated the same exact sequence when the Nuggets throw away an inbounds pass. He steals it and almost made a 75-foot shot. I know it's the playoffs. The playoffs are different than regular season. If I'm a head coach, I am now. You're now. The union is going to have to come at me. I'm frustrated.

I'm fining all my guys who don't take heaves during the regular season. All my field goal percentage hogs who refuse, who are like, oh, I just barely didn't get it off. I took that one extra dribble and I just didn't get it off. Maybe our great friends at NBA Stats, we create a separate column

for that type of shot as far as maybe it doesn't hit impact like, you know, the stats if that's what the players are worried about. Well, cleaning the glass factors out heaves, which because now I want it factored in. I want Jamal Murray to get credit on cleaning the glass for his heave that went in. Maybe you should get credit only, no demerit. But I'm showing the tape of these heaves and...

you gotta shoot him or I'm finding you a hundred bucks every time the players union come at me we'll take it to the Supreme Court baby I'm going I was going as far as I need um

What else on this series? What else do you want to say? Just an awesome series. Yeah, I mean, listen, it's probably not how any of us scripted. If you would have said it's 2-2 going back to Denver, everybody would have protected home court. But I'm just, as I said, I'm just interested as far as

what Minnesota has for game five. You mentioned the bench, which has not been good. Nas Reed has been, you know, so, so also, you know, I thought Conley last night, they didn't give him much space at all. You know, I mean, I think he hit one, three in that, you know, in a sequence they're going to need probably a little bit more offense from McDaniels who had been really good in game one, two from offensively here. Yeah.

But, but yeah, I mean, this is, listen, when you put these, when you put these rosters together and Tim Connolly, you know, did a couple of years ago with, you know, certainly the go bear trade. This is kind of like your experiment to see, you know, does it, it can work in a regular season. It can work in the Phoenix series, but when you're on this level, right, when you're on this stage, as far as one of the final four teams against the defending champions, you

you know, it's, it's basically kind of up to, you know, it's up to the towns to kind of figure it out here. A couple other notes. Denver is now plus two in the non-Jokic minutes for the series. They had to change. You mentioned the non-Murray minutes and the substitution patterns in game four. They had to change their substitution patterns in the second half when Jokic got in foul trouble. And that is when Aaron, that is when Aaron Gordon forget the jump shots. The jump shots are cool.

He created baskets out of thin air with his off the dribble game in that stretch. He beat Nas Reid off the dribble once and kicked it to Holiday, I think, for a corner three. He beat another big off the dribble and drew a foul at the rim and made both free throws. Like that's...

Those are the gutsy baskets and points, like just manufactured, scrounged up that win you games when you're when your stars in foul trouble, when you have to change the rotation. Like those are winning basketball moments, totally unglamorous, gritty, whatever you want to say. And I still think, you know, that that chess match between Denver's offense and Minnesota's defense is so interesting. When when Jokic gets in.

First of all, I wonder if Gobert just has to be on the floor every second Jokic is on the floor. Second, when Jokic gets the Gobert matchup, he's got to find ways –

Whether it's passing without Gobert on the back line, whether it's attacking Gobert in the post, or one thing I like that Reggie Jackson did particularly well last night is immediately go into a pick and roll with Jokic because Gobert is going to drop. And Jokic made one pick and pop three off an insane pass from Reggie Jackson, like under the rim with nine guys around him, pass it all the way out to the top of the key. And then he got the play I've been waiting for and that Gobert has stoned him on so far in this series.

pick and pop, pump fake, drive into Gobert's body, missed a shot, but got an offensive rebound and drew a foul. That's the play. And there are other ways. They said they had a couple cross screens for Jokic to get him into post position. I like that. And I think there's other wrinkles they can go to. Well, and I think that play that you're referring to, I think that was the end of the fourth quarter. Or maybe there was something similar because

On that play where he missed it, he had both Gobert and I think Towns was behind him. And he knew he was short, right? And he just basically kind of moved up like one, you know, took a foot up.

a step up and basically, and when he got hit in the head, but those are the type of plays. Like he was short on a couple of them too. I thought, you know, there was a couple of bunnies in the lane that he was. He missed one when he go, he faked Gobert out of his shoes, fake Gobert like off the court and just missed a little floater. But as I mean, but as you know, I mean, watching this team forever, it's just that he puts so much pressure on you. He puts so much pressure on you. You know, when you're on defense, he puts so much pressure on when Minnesota is on offense to have a perfect possession.

Because you know that Denver is going to get something like really, really good on the other end.

Well, and speaking of pressure, like respect to Minnesota's defense, because I think one of the, I mean, Denver always goes for like fun home run outlet passes. Some of the home run outlet passes they are throwing in the series are like objectively insane and have no chance to succeed and are flying out of bounds. And they're doing that because they're like anything we can get before these guys set their defense, like we got to try and get it. Just a really fun chess match, really fun series. I hope it goes seven.

This episode is brought to you by Allstate. Some people just know they could save hundreds on car insurance by checking Allstate first. Like, you know to check you have the tickets in your wallet first before you drive two hours to the big game.

Seriously, you had one job. Now the closest you'll get to the 50-yard line is parking lot D. Yeah, checking first is smart. So check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Savings vary. Terms apply. Allstate Fire and Casualty Insurance Company & Affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois.

So, you want to be a marketer? It's easy. You just have to score a ton of leads and figure out a way to turn them all into customers. Plus, manage a dozen channels, write a million blogs, and launch a hundred campaigns all at once. When that's done, simply make your socials go viral and bring in record profits. No sweat.

Okay, fine. It's a lot of sweat. But with HubSpot's AI-powered marketing tools, launching benchmark-breaking campaigns is easier than ever. Get started at HubSpot.com slash marketers. Another series that has taken quite a turn resumed last night. I don't even remember what the final score was. I don't know. Indiana was up by 40 at some point against the Knicks, who are...

I mean, I guess you could just simplify this and say, and an OB was the breaking point of them just running out of guys, just running out of players, running out of lineups that have balance of shooting and size and spacing. Um,

And the Pacers caught a rhythm and played faster and ran at every chance they got. Tyrese Halliburton has come alive, notably as a three-point shooter. 26 out of his 41 shot attempts in games three and four in Indiana were threes. And had really struggled since that injury. I don't know whether it be the injury, but shooting from three, his numbers were really, during the regular season, were really down. You know, that was a...

That was a big part of certainly a drop-off for him. And, well, we'll talk more about Tyrese, but obviously throwing Aaron Neesmith onto Brunson has changed the series. Rick Carlisle is getting a lot of credit for that. He deserves it. I also thought it was a game late. I thought it should have happened in game two. I couldn't believe that they just let Jalen Brunson cook

Andrew Knappard over and over it again in game two, but better late than never. It also presents the Knicks with an interesting dilemma on defense. Like I think knee Smith is the safest hiding spot for Brunson on defense, but doing that essentially guarantees that knee Smith is going to be on him on defense when, when the Knicks get the ball.

Putting him on Nembhardt, who's a little bit more of a dynamic ball handler and screener, and they will go to that, Indiana will if he's there, is a little bit more dangerous for Brunson's defense, but gives him a shot at dragging that cross match to the other end and beating the hell out of Nembhardt. But Jalen Brunson looks exhausted. He's dealing with a foot injury.

The Knicks are just like, all right, pressure Shichua, give it a go. Alec Burks has been solid, but they're running on fumes. And, you know, I said after I had Legler on Friday and we both said, like, I think this is coming back to, to, I just think the Knicks have reached the, I use the word crisis on ghetto, like a crisis of availability. And maybe that's it. Maybe this is just a boring analysis. The Knicks are just running out of guys. The Pacers have a lot of guys. They play with a lot of verb, verb. If that's the case, like,

The Knicks still have home court. It's 2-2. The quick turnaround for Game 4 really hurt them. I hope the Knicks are able to come out and be – look, maybe Game 3 will be the game we end up looking at as like, oof, man, they really had to win that one because they just don't have a lot of guys, and they almost did some controversial officiating. Knicks missed a couple free throws late in that game. Hart missed one. Brunson missed one. Brunson missed a tying three full of marginal contact, according to the NBA, at the end of the game after Nembhard's monster three.

But, man, you kind of felt that the Ananobi thing was going to be the breaking point. And it's just the Pacers are playing awesome, but you just want to see a fair fight. And Game 4 was the first time you thought, like, ooh, this may not be a fair fight, at least tonight. You know what? I'm drawing some parallels, different players, certainly, to the 21 Milwaukee-Brooklyn series a little bit here, where –

You lose Harden in game one with a hamstring and then Kyrie in game three with the ankle. And, you know, everybody's given New York credit for game three, the resiliency per, uh,

But at the end of the day, it was a missed opportunity, right? It was a missed opportunity. And I get it. I get it on the road. But you're still at a – you're undermanned and you still had a nine-point lead. And DiVincenzo has 35 points. Yeah. It was completely bonkers. And then basically, like I knew – I mean, listen. Who knows what – we could have – I don't have a crystal ball, but you go from Friday night –

grudge match to a sat a sunday day quick turnaround with basically seven healthy players six healthy players and they were bound to get their doors blown off here um so now you have you know you get a game five at home um you're basically your your crowd is going to have to play

It's basically going to have to push you over the line here. I don't think we'll see... I would be stunned if we even saw NNL before game six, which is Friday, I think. There's so just three more days there. I don't know. I mean, hamstring, hamstring. But listen, he's missed a lot of games in his career. I mean, that's the reality. He missed a lot of games in Toronto. And he's missed his fair share in New York here. But as you said, it's just...

And New York will not give – they will not give excuses as far as where they are. But you have Brunson, DiVincenzo, Hart, right, as far as your three – basically your three main guys here. And that's the depth of Indiana, which has been a strength. T.J. McConnell has been terrific. You've got certainly Siakam and Hal Burton and Nate Smith has been really good. So I –

I would be, I don't want to say surprised, but I could see certainly going back to Indiana for game six to close out the series here based on what. I haven't looked up the line. Maybe one of our producers will look up the line for game five. To me. If I was in the realm of the sports betting, which I'm not, I would say it's a New York two and a half.

New York is favored by two and a half. It is. Wow. Yeah. I mean, that's a narrow, that's a narrow spread for a home favorite in game five. Yeah. And kind of signals to you that like, yeah, this game's kind of a toss up comparison. Denver's four and a half. So yeah. Yeah.

You could just see the Pacers come out and say, we're running like hell every single possession. And it was the first time you saw Turner outrunning Hartenstein pretty consistently. And that just messes up your matchups. I mean, Toppin is like shot out of a cannon in transition. And he does something very smart, which is he'll sometimes –

Like if he's on the left side of the floor and someone gets a rebound, he'll sprint diagonally to the other side, knowing I might, my guy who's supposed to be guarding me may not be able to find me. And that will cause all sorts of chaos. And the Knicks were just hazy dealing with that the entire game. I do want to give Halliburton a lot of credit because I don't think he's 100% healthy either. He has not been the same guy in months now. And the Knicks, like the Bucks did, are playing...

the Halliburton Turner pick and roll to try to make him into a dribbler. They do not want to blitz him and start unlocking his passing game. They'll do it every now and then. Their ideal outcome is like, we'll come up pretty high, but you're going to have to prod into the paint. And, you know, Miles Turner wants to pick and pop. We're cool with that. Like we'll come back and contest that. And Tyrese and Turner and Tyrese and Siakam have found ways in the last two games to

to just say, we're not going to just walk in to that defense. And if you watch, he'll be dribbling up fast, and Turner will come to set up to set a screen to his right. Or just imagine that scenario.

and they'll be 15 feet apart and Tyrese will just go like zoom away from the screen like I'm not going to use the screen I'm rejecting it I'm going into the lane then I'm going to snake back the other way and he's been very smart about generating switches that way or just confusing the Knicks defense where Hartenstein's on him but they want to get Hartenstein off of him and all of a sudden he's open or someone else is open for three he's gotten himself open threes that way he's

He's gotten other teammates open threes that way. Miles Turner has gotten offensive rebounds on the back end of those switches, and some of those lead to open threes for Tyrese Halliburton. He's just been very smart attacking that defense and not settling for what the Knicks want him to settle for. He even beat Hartenstein on a layup a couple times on switches, which he was not able to do earlier in the series. He's been really good. You mentioned McConnell.

I don't know who told him three months ago that he was allowed to just score at will, but apparently he's like a Hall of Fame level scorer now. Like he just doesn't miss shots. He beats the hell out of everybody. And the Knicks...

You know, here's their reality now without Ananobi. And you just feel his just constant presence, his constant kind of importance on both ends of the floor. They're starting Achua and Hartenstein. And the Pacers, to their credit in Game 4, decided, like, we're just not guarding Achua at all.

Like, we're not going to guard him. You're going to have no spacing. And then the Knicks will pivot and be like, all right, well, we'll put Hart at the four to try and get more shooting on the floor. But those lineups are very, very small. Siakam is hurting Josh Hart a little bit in the post and on the glass. And they decided in game four, like, we're not guarding Josh Hart either. We're going to take our chances. And it kind of flustered the Knicks. And it feels like the Knicks either have –

Too little shooting or too little size and nothing in between. And that's the Ananobi piece. And I don't know really what the solution is. I mean, they even played Alec Burks at the four for a hot second when things got out of hand. I don't know what the solution for any of that is. They don't have players. I mean, basically, their MO has been second chance points, offensive rebounds, the ability to kind of stretch the floor, make open threes.

Right. I mean, that's, you know, and then you'll get, you know, certainly, you know, Brunson's array of stuff in the paint and everything like that when you're not doing that.

You're going to have games like Sunday. I mean, and that's, that's the reality and that's how it's going to have to be. I mean, it's like, it's, if you're in Indiana, it's like, what, what's, how is the game plan going to change? Is it going to be much different than what it was on Friday night or, or Sunday night? Because you know who, unless all of a sudden Tibbs is going to,

roll out shake Milton, which I don't think is, you know, I don't think that's going to be the case. I mean, we had an Alec Burke sighting Friday night. It was, and he was terrific. All right. I thought he, I thought he gave me a professional NBA player. Yeah. He, he, he, he gave him a lift to the point, but then like, you know, then there was, you know, the clock struck midnight towards the end where there was a couple of

Um, you know, it looks like he really, he ran out of gas and everything like that. But I mean, I know it sounds cliche, but really the only way that New York will win a game five is if they outwork them. I mean, that's, that's the reality as far as what they did in games one and two. Um, but this time without in an OB.

Well, and, you know, we focus on the most recent injury and, you know, their record with Anadolby is unbelievable. And so that's why. But, you know, you do have to remind yourself, Randall. Yeah. And semi-recently Bogdanovich, who would be huge to give a little more shooting and size on the floor. And you talk about beating teams up on the glass. Mitchell Robinson's the best they have at that. And he's out. And Jericho Sims has been kind of unplayable in the past.

short minutes and you know and the pacers without mitchell robinson have decided hey it might be safe for us to play siakam and toppen at the four and the five now if we don't we may not need to play isaiah jackson who's been good when they played him and actually got uh outworked hartenstein for an offensive rebound that i i don't think would hartenstein would have given up in earlier in the series or in earlier um

Yeah. The other thing, you know, this is a niche thing, but it's very interesting how the Knicks and they're not alone in this have just decided we're never going under screens on McConnell. Like that used to be the go-to defense on McConnell. Like don't let him get into the lane, go under every screen and to McConnell's credit and to the Pacers credit,

He's made that very hard to do because he will pull up and hit a 14-foot jump shot over you if you go under. Their screeners will set the screens lower and lower and lower, and he's smart about finagling that. But there have been a few times in this series where I'm like, can you just not press TJ McConnell 35 feet from the rim and maybe see what happens if you go under? The other interesting thing that happened, and it relates to their lack of size with Hart at the four –

We saw it in game three down the stretch and we did not see it in game four at all. They switched Hartenstein onto Siakam and put Hart on Turner and just said, we're going to guard Siakam with size and not let him just brutalize Josh Hart in the post. And we're going to switch everything on Turner. Um,

I wonder if we'll see that again because it's a wrinkle that other teams have tried, you know, inverting the matchups like that. It's a natural against Siakam and Turner given their skill sets. The one thing that does do is unlock even more the Halliburton-Siakam two-man game, which I don't think the Pacers are using enough. But to the Knicks' credit, the numbers say it has not worked when they've used it. But it's an action that is pretty powerful with Myles Turner spacing the floor. It's an action the Knicks do not want to switch against.

And it's something I think the Pacers could use to counter that kind of adjustment from the Knicks if they put Hartenstein on Siakam. But, you know, I wish there was more of this kind of basketball stuff to talk about and not just the injury stuff. It does raise the question, by the way, I saw you at the bar yesterday in Chicago. And I asked you, like, if the Pacers make the conference finals. Mm-hmm.

How do they – and let's say they make the conference finals. They get rolled by Boston, who, by the way, still has to get through Cleveland. So I'm not – they should. I picked Boston in five. This could very well be Boston in five. But Cleveland's got Donovan Mitchell going berserk every game. I'm not going to just write them off. But let's just say Indiana makes the conference finals, loses in five to Boston. It's not close. It's not competitive. I'm not going to make the direct comparison to the 2021 Hawks. But I do think the question is interesting like –

How do you evaluate your team where you get the Bucs without Giannis and other issues for Milwaukee and you get the Knicks just running out of guys? And the Bucs series was not uncompetitive. Like it was a six game series and Indiana had to earn every bit of that series.

And this series has obviously been like uber competitive other than game four. And if games five and six look like game four, it's a different story. But it's an interesting thought experiment for the Pacers front office is like, are we a conference finals team? Do we behave like a super aggressive win now team because we just got to the conference finals and we just traded a pick for Siakam? Or do we...

take a more realistic or conservative, whatever, look at it and say like, yeah, we made the conference finals. We caught some breaks. Like we still need a lot of work here and there. It's, it's, and you met, you reminded me of McConnell could be a free agent. Um, yeah. And there's other extension eligible. Yeah. Toppin's extension eligible, or I guess he can't be a free agent. Um,

It's just, I just, it's one of those things where as a front office, it would be interesting to be in the room. Like if they, if they do, if that scenario does happen, because it's not an easy, it's not an easy dilemma and it's very tempting to get over exuberant about what you are. I think, and it's almost kind of, it's probably going to be similar to what Cleveland has to go through. Right. I mean, Cleveland's going to go through it. If, you know, if they, certainly if they lose to like say Boston in five games is like, you know, what did we learn about our roster? Yeah. We beat an or a young Orlando team and we had to survive a game seven.

But, like, who are we, right? And you're going to extend Mitchell, and you're going to figure out if him and Garland can play together and Mobley and Allen. I mean, we haven't even seen Jared Allen because he's been injured. I think with Indiana, we forget to know Benedict Mathurin. So, you know, I think for them to take that— And they traded Buddy Heald for future stuff. And Buddy Heald, although he did not play much for Philly until he exploded with their season on the line against the Knicks—

in game six, he had great chemistry with Halliburton and would absolutely be playing minutes in this series one way or another. Yeah, because with Indiana, it's going to get expensive. The reality is that you're likely going to have two guys on max contracts with Halliburton, especially if he earns all NBA, which I think is going to be this week. Yeah.

And then you see Ocum, you're, you know, you signed up for that, right? When you traded for him, you knew what the price was going to be. And now you've got Turner and, and McConnell going into the last year of their contract. You know, certainly McConnell could be extension of, I'm interested in, we never even talked about because he hasn't played. Is there, you know, they picked a Jairus Walker within the lottery, I think,

six or seven a year ago so maybe the he's your your obi toppen for next year perhaps let's say because toppen's a restricted free agent here but you have to hit on a you know a you know as far as a third score right as far as a third wing you know a guy from whether it be math or in who could be that guy if we you know when he's healthy um but this is you know this is the reality of it that

A team that was retooling now, now there's the expectation, right? Now there's the expectation because we're a conference finalist team that is about to get, is about to get expensive. It's not like they're going to all of a sudden take a step back. They've got more draft capital to use if they want to. But it's a, you know, you don't, they don't want to be in that position where they were like, you know, first round, first round, first round. And then we've got to take a step back again.

Well, the difference from Cleveland is in Cleveland there's one player who will dictate everything that happens, and that's Donovan Mitchell. I'm very skeptical that the Mitchell-Garland backcourt will continue one way or another beyond this season unless something really clicks in these next few games against Boston, and if they somehow win the series going forward, whatever. I haven't looked at Indiana's finances lately. I'm just in playoff mode, but maybe you can help me.

I think Toppin has played well enough and shot it well enough that if I'm the Pacers and I can afford it without going into the tax and this is where you're going to have to – I haven't done the math yet. I'm keeping Obi Toppin. Jairus Walker, I love the flashes I saw from Jairus Walker this season on both ends of the floor. A little turnover prone, but I see the template of him. I like it. I see the plan. I like it.

Restricted free... Look, this is the cold calculated team executive part of my brain, not the player empowerment agent part of my brain. This is what restricted free agency is for. This guy's a good player. He fits our team. We got him for nothing. I'm squeezing him. Squeeze is the wrong word. If I can get him on a deal that is below market, I'm doing it to keep my team good now. And if I got a pivot later, that deal is going to be a tradable deal because this guy's good. There's just...

Again, I haven't done the tax math unless it's super onerous. Like I'm not letting that guy get away and I'm forcing him if I have to, to go get an offer sheet or threaten me with an offer sheet. And then I'm going to match it unless it's like insane. Here's a little bit of a theme that's starting to develop out here in Chicago that just from walking the concourse and sitting with teams yesterday during the G League camp. And the big thing is that you hear it is that don't worry about the tax. Worry about the apron.

The tax is not going to be as important. Certainly you don't get the distribution back, but where the tax rules are going to go starting in 25, 26, where it's getting lower, the first two brackets, right? You don't get pen. You don't get penalized as much for barely going basically a dollar dollar for dollar. Um,

I would have loved to see teams still get like 70% distribution back if you were, if you go over, but they, that didn't happen. Um, certainly you get hit a little bit hard if you get into that third bracket, but just, you know, as I said, like worry about the apron, worry about the first and second apron and where it's going. Like we're going to get like a three and a half percent increase this year. It's, it's going to go 10%, you know, in 25, 26. So it's going to take a nice big jump. So where Indiana is financially is you're probably looking at, uh,

You've got $21, $22 million in flexibility below the tax. Add another $8 million for the 8-in-30. What is OB Toppin? Can you get him for non-tax 13, 14 as your sixth man, as far as reserve coming off? I don't know. That's the reality of a team coming in with an offer sheet, which rarely ever happens in restricted. I think DeAndre Ayton was the last guy in restricted free agency here. So

I think teams are going to continually, I think Indiana is going to spend, even if it means dipping their toe into the tax to keep this roster together. Turner will be the big, the Turner will be the big thing. Then that's next year, which is a 25 off season. Cause he's going miles to miles. Turner free agency could be pretty interesting there. I would agree. I think he's a very good player.

I think his defense has slipped a little bit, but he clearly fits with Halliburton. They have good chemistry together, but that's for down the line. Any, any parting thoughts on either of these series? No, I mean, listen, we, it's amazing. And, you know, certainly with the, the Dallas series, okay. See, and, and, you know, in Boston, it's just like a matter of like, like who's going to be the last, you know, from a health standpoint, I mean, it's, you know, whether it be Luca, whether it be, he said, Halbert and certainly New York, you know,

You know, like the Memphis, I mean, the mini Denver series, she's like, they're the two healthiest teams, knock on wood, you know, certainly the Murray half there, but that's the, that's the beauty of the playoffs. It's kind of like, you know, health, health matters, right? Availability matters. You have your best five out there, Boston, you know, certainly no Porzingis, but you know, that, that matters in how far these teams can go.

Well, we got two games tonight. We got Boston Cleveland's the early game. Uh, Boston went at that game in game three and it got a little rickety for them after they went up 20 and it got down to eight, nine, didn't play Hauser in the second half. You could tell they're like, all right, we're a little stressed here. We got to get this game. Um,

Tonight will be the series. This is either a series or it's not, depending on the outcome tonight. I just generally pick Boston in every game against these East mid-rung playoff teams, so we'll see. I'm fascinated by Oklahoma City-Dallas, which is the late game. This is the first gut check moment for the young Thunder. And Dallas...

Dallas, with this team that – I mean, P.J. Washington's hit a million shots, and that's great. Their defense has been the story of the last two games for me. And their ability to switch into sometimes okay and sometimes very unfavorable matchups against SGA, like if it's Luka, and have the other four guys underneath that –

covers space in a way that confuses both his driving lanes and his passing options, leaves the right guy to the degree that Oklahoma City even offers you one, semi-open. Like Dallas is grinding on defense and covering tons of space and flying around, and their defense has been really, really good the last two games. I was very impressed with it, and they've been changing up their schemes in kind of sophisticated ways, like they'll drop back

and they'll put Lively into kind of like a one-man zone and it's kind of confusing. You can see Oklahoma City being like, wait, is he guarding that guy? Who's guarding Chet? What's going on? They made the Giddy adjustment fast in terms of putting their centers on Giddy at times. It's been a really good little series and defensively for Dallas. I'm fascinated by that game.

I picked the Thunder in seven in that series. I don't feel great about that pick after the last two games, so we'll see. Bobby Marks, there's always a lot to talk about. I will see you probably at the gym in an hour, but thank you for spending some time with us here in Chicago and enjoy tonight's games, my friend. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

This episode is brought to you by CarMax. Searching for your next car? Don't settle, thrive. At CarMax, it's easy to shop online or in person. With upfront pricing and tools designed to help, finding a car you love has never been easier. Plus, you can sell or trade in your current vehicle with an online offer in minutes. No strings attached. Start shopping now to find a car you'll love at CarMax.com. CarMax, the way it should be.

Ryan Reynolds here for, I guess, my 100th Mint commercial. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, honestly, when I started this, I thought I'd only have to do like four of these. I mean, it's unlimited premium wireless for $15 a month. How are there still people paying two or three times that much? I'm sorry, I shouldn't be victim blaming here. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash save whenever you're ready. For

$45 upfront payment equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first three-month plan only. Taxes and fees extra. Speeds lower above 40 gigabytes. See details. All right, let's bring in ESPN's draft guru, Jonathan Gavone. I was in the lottery room last night, the secret lottery room. Not as much buzz, not as much tension as there was last year for the Wemba-Yama lottery where you could feel the anxiety among the NBA team executives, like the small talk, the

Wasn't really there. It was fidgety. Everyone just wanted to get it over with. Last night was like a nice little party. Nice little catered party. There was a pasta salad, some coffees. Nobody really cared all that much. But then it got wild. Jonathan Gavone, the Atlanta Hawks, jumped from 10-1. The Houston Rockets via the very sad Brooklyn Nets. Again,

It happens to the Brooklyn Nets that a trade gone bad results in the Nets giving up a top three pick to the Rockets via the James Harden trade. The Spurs end up with number four and number eight and the Detroit Pistons the

The lottery losing streak continues for the second straight year. The Pistons enter number one and end number five. The maximum amount of slippage. And already, Mr. Gavone, as soon as that lottery unfolded, both in the secret room where we were all cooped up and afterwards, just a ton of talk of like, wait, the Hawks?

Have the number one pick. They were maybe going to think about trading one of their star guards. What does that do to that equation? The Spurs, are they going to try to trade up, trade down, trade out? Is everyone going to try to trade down at the same time? What happens if everybody tries to trade down at the same time? A lot of stuff going on. What was your initial, when you saw the results, what were some of the first messages and stuff you started getting on your phone?

Everybody was just talking about how chaos. I mean, the C80s teams move up, you know, Atlanta. I don't think that they were seriously thinking, you know, about this draft, you know, being at the top. I mean, it changes everything for them with the way that the direction that they might go now and the options that they'll have. So it's exciting for them and it's exciting for their fans. And I'm still processing it all because, you know,

It really evolved in a very specific way that I think could really alter the draft order. I mean, there are certain guys who I think were real candidates to be number one picks and maybe now slide more towards the mid lottery. It's one of those years where, you know, there's not a lot, there's not a lot of separation in that group between the elite guys and,

you know, talking to NBA teams all year, everybody sees it very differently. Everybody has their board, even within teams, you know, like one guy will be one on this, on somebody's board and for another scout, he'll be 10th. And so it's,

It's going to be a draft I think you look back on five years from now and you're going to be like, wow, how did this guy get picked this high and how did somebody else slide at the end of the first round? I'm not of the mindset like a lot of people that this is a weak draft and all that. I just think it's an unpredictable draft and it's not a typical draft in the sense that there's not a lot of star power at the top.

But I think there's a lot of good players, and I'm excited to cover it. And I think it's going to be really interesting to see how everything unfolds the next month and change. Yeah, I don't envy you going on to Givoni mock draft 12.4.3 as we approach the draft. Because I think there's going to be a lot of trade talk, I think, around the top 10 and 15 drafts.

of the draft. We're not, we're not going to get it a hundred percent. I mean, last year, I think we got like the top nine picks right in order. I've said from the very start, this is not going to be one of those years. It's going to be, and I'm okay with that, you know, because like every NBA team has it completely different than there was going to be a ton of trades. And so like,

I think we were embracing the chaos of this year. And listen, you know, if you don't get your mock draft is not a hundred percent accurate, what are you going to do? You know, like other people with mocks are going to be off too. I'm pretty sure. And it got legitimately chaotic with all these teams jumping and two teams jumping a lot in the lottery. And just to give people an example, like I'm not a draft guy like you are, but I'm here in Chicago and I spent all day yesterday and all night last night hanging out with people.

And just to give you an example, I had one conversation with a guy, a high-level guy to the team being like, man, this is him talking to me like, this Reese O'Shea kid,

I can't believe anybody has him at the top of the draft. Like, I just don't understand how anyone could have him at number one. Like I've seen him at number one on some mocks. It's insane to me. He's not that good. Then I had two hours later over drinks at the bar. I had someone else be like, I have research. I really liked that guy. Like I could see the Spurs maybe trying to package four and eight to get up to draft him and pair him with women. I'm like, well, wow, this is really wild. The only consensus I heard, maybe you've heard this.

Stu, you have Alex Saar now projected number one in the latest mock to Atlanta. I heard from several people, like if you actually got all 30 teams to reveal their real top threes and it would be chaos, it would be all over the place. I had a number of people tell me Saar would probably be the one name that was in the most of those top threes, whether he was one, two, or three, he'd be the most consistent presence. Do you agree with that? I do just because his presence

player type is so hard to find seven foot one can stretch the floor, can block shots, you know, kind of in that Porzingis mold, Chet Holmgren, Evan Mobley, you know, it's,

It's the ideal type of big man because you can play him at the four, you can play him at the five. Now, listen, there's a lot of theoretical qualities to Alex Saar. And so we've been watching him since he was 15 years old and he sometimes would be very productive and sometimes would disappear. So I think his ceiling is very high. I'm not sure that his floor is to be determined. So I like Alex Saar, but he's no sure thing.

Now, you have him projected number one to the Hawks. As you know, as soon as the lottery results were revealed and the Hawks were number one, there was just a lot of like, whoa, wait, what does this mean? What are they going to do with this pick? And it started at the obvious speculation like, whoa, OK, so they have a decent team. Like it's been a disappointing team, but it's a decent team. They were injury riddled last year.

Would they try to trade this pick for a veteran player and keep Trae and keep DeJounte and go all-all in next year? Then you had some people say, well, that seems a little crazy. Would they try to maybe trade down and get multiple picks or maybe trade down and get –

a lower lottery pick and a veteran like on a lower scale to help the team and still trade one of the guards. My personal opinion is like, if I were the Hawks, I would not get over exuberant on any of this. If I couldn't find a good trade down trade,

I would probably just take whoever I thought was the best player and continue with whatever plans I already have to trade or try to trade Trae Young or DeJounte Murray, get the most back and bank on like if I have one of them, like the evidence suggests if you have one of them, you're not all that much better or worse than you are with both of them. And so like just I would just kind of stay the course, take whoever I think is the best guy. No, I don't know what trades are going to be available to them.

and not go crazy in either direction but i wonder i'm curious sort of they clearly are i mean they were dazed last night they were like elated and dazed and have not even come close to like having a bunch of meetings on oh my god what the hell are we going to do but is there any early like what kind of just chit chat are you hearing about them at number one

I mean, same stuff as you. I mean, I think the Trey Young question is the big one. Everybody is trying to figure out which direction they'll go there. And what is Trey's preference for where he wants to be long term? You know, I mean, you hear the Lakers, you hear the Magic, you hear the Spurs, you know, as like possible destinations that he might be attracted to. But I just think it's... What about the Pelicans?

I didn't hear that as much, but like, I think to me, it's like, who is, what are people who are going to give up for Trey young? That's, that's a big question. You know, like how do you, how do you value him? Obviously he's one of the best scorers in the NBA and he can really pass when he wants to, but you know, it's the same questions that we've had about him since high school is can you build a winning team around, around Trey young? I mean, so, um,

With the right type of pieces around it, maybe, you know, but what is the appetite among those teams for, you know, for putting together a significant package with, you know, a young player and a lot of draft picks. And so that's going to be, you know, it's going to be interesting to see how the whole thing plays out in terms of who they might draft them.

I don't know. We all put Alex Saar at number one right off the bat. I think that was a safe thing to do. But the more you look at it, you're like, okay, Jalen Johnson, Oneka Okonkwo, Capella, even though he probably isn't as much of a factor there.

You know, how much is that is the biggest need there? You know, like for a four or five like that. I mean, every every team in the NBA could use Alex Sar at his peak. But, you know, would they look at other options there, too? You know, the reason why you talk about reason, the reason why a lot of people have reason, top three. I mean, most of the NBA teams I talked to have him in the top three.

is he's such an easy fit in every NBA lineup. There's not a team in the league that couldn't use a 6'9 guy who's a 39% three-point shooter,

who is a phenomenal defender who can legitimately guard point guards, who has a great frame that's going to put on a lot of weight and is going to allow him to play the four in some lineups down the road and can really pass. He's got a great feel for the game. He just turned 19 years old. You know, there's not a, you know, so I was talking to an executive yesterday. He said,

he reminds me of Jaden McDaniels at the same age on the defensive end. I think he can be that type of defender, but he's a much better shooter at the same stage. I mean, he's shooting 39% through 65 games, playing at a very high level of competition. His team went to the finals of the Euro Cup. They're in the French playoffs right now. They have home court advantage in the first round. They're probably going to make at least the semis. And he plays a huge role for them. You know, now it's not,

It's not the most well-constructed team. They don't have a point guard on that team. They don't have anybody to get him easy baskets. And he's not a great ball handler. He's not a great shot creator. So that's what I think people, they look at him and say, like, can you take a guy, number one, who does not project as a high-usage guy? And so the question is, you know, how much can he evolve with that part of his game? And the other question is, if not him, who do you take? You know, it's like, oh, Rizashe can't go one. Okay, well, who are you taking? You know, Alex Sarr, I mean...

Incredible talent. Not, you know, like there are real questions about his feel for the game. There are questions about his toughness. Questions about how he overdoes. The shot is very theoretical. There are some Alex Saar, along with the Alex Saar anxiety and everyone thinking he's the safest top three pick, there is some Alex Saar, like,

The downside could be not great. Like if the upside doesn't hit, the downside could be like you look back at that pick and you're like, ooh, that one hurt.

Right. His chances of failing to me are higher than those of Arisa Shea. And so what if a shot doesn't come around? Then what kind of player are you talking about? Can he get strong enough and become a good enough rebounder to be a five full time? And so these are the question marks that are going to determine whether Alex Sarr reaches his potential, which...

which is extremely high. And I like Alex Starr. I think he's going to be good, but he's not this like surefire thing that a lot of people are making him out to be. Here's my just general take on the Hawks. If I've already decided internally, if I'm them and I'm not saying they have, but let's just say, let's posit that if I'm them and I've decided it's probably the best course of action for me to trade one of the two guards, which is my personal opinion is Zach Lowe. We'll leave it aside what they think.

Getting the number one pick does not change my calculus much at all. In part, even in a down draft, even if you tell me like, well, it's not like they're getting a superstar with this pick. But what that also means is like you're probably not going to be able to trade that pick for what a number one pick in a really good draft would normally net you. And so I'm I'm staying cautious. Like if I've already decided that's best course of action, I'm going to make the best trade I can.

either take the best player for me at number one or maybe trade down and get a whole bunch of stuff that helps me more in the future, some in the present. So I stay afloat because I owe my picks to the Spurs. And unless there's some Trey Young Spurs two-team or three-team trade where I get some of those picked backs, I can't really tank. So I do want to stay afloat. I'm doing that. The Spurs are the other interesting team landing at four. So I think they moved up one spot to four and eight.

eight via the Raptors as the Raptors fell from six to eight and thus give up their top six protected Yaka Pirtle pick to the Spurs. Four and eight is an interesting little package deal. They could just take the picks, take two young players. They could package them and try to trade up if they like one of these guys and they're afraid they're not going to be there at four or eight or whatever. They could do any number of, they could trade them both for, you know, we've heard all this

I personally think it's been a little exaggerated. Like when Benyama is going to be in some like massive rush to win super duper big immediately. So you're like, they couldn't in theory trade both for veteran players. To me again, I would err on the side of caution if I were the Spurs and

provided when Benyama is okay with like a little bit of a slower organic build and sort of aim that way. But that doesn't mean like they could still package them and trade up if they're dying to get one of these guys. They could just take the picks. People around Chicago immediately started mentioning Topic to me as a guy that feels Spurs-y and feels like a good fit with one Benyama. Apparently he kind of struggled in the EuroLeague playoffs.

I don't know what they're going to do. I don't think they know what they're going to do. But again, like I'm not going to rush it if I'm them. I don't know exactly what that means. But I also think that like they have some cap space, even if they take these two picks. Bobby told me they'll have about $20 million, $19 million in cap space. So they could up. There are other ways for them to upgrade it. I just think Wemba Nyama is so good.

That they're going to win a lot more games next season without doing something like super duper aggressive trading for Trae Young, trading both picks for a veteran. Like, I don't even think they have to do that to get up towards maybe play play in range. And like, that's a nice first step.

Yeah, no, they're in great shape. I spent a lot of time around their executives the last 24, 48 hours. I saw Brian Wright. I saw a couple other guys. And they're just in zen mode right now. They're just like, listen, if we move up, great. If we don't, it's all good. Our lottery was last year. We got our guy, and we need to build around him now. And so that doesn't feel to me like a team that's going to be in panic mode, trying to just...

mortgage the farm, you know, to try and make the playing game, like you said. So, yeah, I don't know how much Trae Young makes sense for them, but... And I don't know what the appetite is there. And I'm sure that, you know, Victor will have some say in, like, you know, if they make that kind of trade, I would assume that, like, they'd ask his opinion. You know, like, what do you think about this guy? Do you want to play with him? You know, because...

Even though I agree with you, he's not going anywhere anytime soon. You do want to make sure that he's going to be the best player in the NBA. And so you want to make sure that he's happy. And so whatever it takes to do that, that's what you do. The one thing, whether it's by using both picks, by just making both picks, by making a small free agency signing, by trading up for the right guy, trading down, getting three bites at the apple, whatever they do,

I would not personally rush it. I do. I am a little bit intrigued by the Trey Young fit, but I'm not, I'm not quite sure they're there yet, but maybe, I don't know. The one thing they just, they do need to get somehow someone who can pass him the ball, a better passer. Like I don't care how they get it. I don't care what position he plays. I don't care how old he is. They just need one guy who walks in there as an a level passer and, and can stay on the floor defensively enough to like actually pass to Victor. But I, I,

I'm not rushing it if I'm them. And I don't know what any other names you've heard linked to them. I mean, this is not my expertise. I'm just telling you what the buzz was last night when I was hanging out with people. Yeah, I mean, the guards. So Topich, Reed Shepard, Rob Dillingham, like those are the three guys.

uh best guards at the top of the draft and then and then at eight you know like do they go for a guy like a tijon salon you know a big french wing who you know is impressive shot making diversity and is a multi-positional defender i mean that that could you know he's six foot ten he might measure six foot eleven here i'm hearing so that that could be interesting potentially but

I mean, they're in a great situation because they're going to get everybody in their gym. Everybody's going to want to work out for them. Everybody's going to want to play for them because Victor is, you know, he's the type of guy that is going to attract a lot of interest, you know, veterans. And so he's so competitive, but he's also so unselfish and he's such a winner.

And it just, it really helps to have a guy like that anchoring your defense who, you know, I mean, he's going to be defensive player of the year at some point. And so that covers up for a lot of mistakes. And so that could, maybe you do look at like, you know, all these guys dealing him, Shepard, Topic, there's big questions about them defensively. And so, but that's not as much of an issue when you have a guy like Victor, you know, behind them. The other interesting little twist to this draft is

Houston at number three, moving up six spots via the Nets trade. The Thunder get Houston's actual pick via the Russell Westbrook trade. That's number 12. But Houston moving up to three via the Nets. And the Grizzlies, although they fell, are at nine. Those are two teams that are clearly aiming to win next year and in the Memphis Grizzlies case win at a high level next

I don't necessarily think that means they will or should trade those picks because I think as the CBA settles in, more and more teams are seeing that if we want to win at a sustainable level for a long time, we're going to need to kind of cycle those roster spots so we have some cheap

productive not that the number three pick for usin is cheap but relative to a veteran big money contract it is we're just going to need to have those salary slots kind of like fungibly cycling around that said i mean both teams are trying to win the rockets already have a million good young players like i do think we're going to hear rumblings about those picks like those teams are going to at least investigate what they could get for those picks it would be uh they would not be doing their due diligence if they didn't any any early buzz about those teams

Yeah, I mean, the two names that you heard right away with Houston was Reed Shepard, who is probably the best shooter in this draft. He shot over 50% for three. That hasn't been done by a first-round pick since Glenn Rice in 1989. But he also has a great feel for the game. He can really pass. And he was like a super...

defensive playmaker who got like a million steals and even blocks, even though he's 6'2", with a 6'3 wingspan. He's not physically gifted, but his feel for the game is just off the charts. A guy like that also can probably play in almost any lineup in the NBA today, even though

He's probably going to have to guard point guards, but they've got... And by the way, for Houston, if you make that pick instead of trading it like everyone thinks is the obvious move, you could also just turn around and trade other young guys that you're going to have to pay sooner. There are many different paths they can go, but please continue on the Rockets. Yeah, so I think Shepard, that's the guy we put right away, and I think he's somebody that they're going to look at. And Donovan Klingin is another obvious one. I mean...

Probably the best, you know, defender in this draft. Seven-wing spin. You know, won two national championships. And just a question with him is, how many minutes can he play with Alper and Shingun, let's say, three years from now? You know, can those guys be, you know, in the same lineups together? And then we know with Jabari Smith, I mean, he's, you know, he's a four. So it's like, what do you do? But, I mean, I think in this draft, you have to be thinking about

Who's the best prospect five years from now? I don't think you really look at trying to win a game today. But like you said, Houston, they want to win. Memphis, they want to win. So that's the challenge with the draft is you're trying to –

You know, draft the guy that's not going to cannibalize the rest of your roster and you want to give him the best chance to get minutes early on in his career and be successful. But you don't, you know, when you look back on it, you do a redraft five years from now, you're like, what were some of these teams thinking at that point? And that's the real challenge with the draft. So Memphis, you know, at nine, I don't know, I would think shooting, you know, I mean, that's the part of the problem with that part of the draft is that's where all the non-shooters are.

Stefan Castle, Ron Holland, Cody Williams. And there's some of the theoretical shooters, you know, like to John Salon, you know, so it's a group there. And then do they maybe say, let's just take the guy who can help us right away. You have Dalton Connect,

First team All-American, 23 years old, incredible shooter, can come off screens, really good in transition too. Like he's more than just a shooter and he's plug and play. I mean, he's going to be able to make shots from day one in the NBA, but then the models don't like him at all. You know, they, they're, I mean, the track record of 23 year olds in the draft is, is awful, especially drafting them in the lottery. So that's, you know, that's that these are some of the conversations they'll be having, I guess. And so, um,

You know, there's just, you know, I think it's going to be one of those drafts where you look at the group that we have, like in that 13 to 20 range. I think a lot of those guys will become candidates to be picked, you know, in that six to 14 range. I think it's going to be a lot of movement.

And it's wide open. So it's going to be fun. It's going to be a lot of fun to see how it all unfolds. Before we get to the story that you and Woj broke this morning, any other teams that we haven't talked to? It doesn't even have to be lottery teams, but any other teams you've heard some interesting stuff about or you think are in interesting positions in the draft just for team building? Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, you know, just Detroit, you always want, you know, you wonder what direction they're going to go. Or, like, how do they see their backcourt? You know, Cade Cunningham and Jaden Ivey. Like, can they play together one? Are they real franchise players that can be your, you know, your primary ball handlers too? And then what do you do in the frontcourt, you know, with Durant, Isaiah Stewart? Like, what?

How do you break that up? What are you going to do? So they have a lot of questions. And then who's going to be making that pick? They're going to hire somebody to oversee the front office. They haven't done that yet. So it's going to be interesting to see what happens in Detroit. And I can tell you that anyone who's going to be a candidate for that job is going to walk into whatever interview process takes place and be like,

Okay, so what exactly has been going on here? Who likes who? Who dislikes who? Who actually has been making the decisions? Because that is going to have to be me or else I'm just going to walk out of the room right now unless you throw crazy amounts of money at me, which you just did with your coach, by the way, but that's a whole different story. Okay, the big news from this morning that you and Woj broke, great medical news. Bronny James has been cleared to participate in all the draft combine stuff and play in the NBA if he decides to stay in the draft.

have generally stayed away from the Bronnies not stayed away I just haven't it's not the beat that I cover and he's not in the lottery not a top 20 pick whatever but obviously he's a big story his father is the biggest star of the modern NBA and has talked in the past about potentially playing with Bronnie where

Or at least then he's pivoted to like, well, I just want to play in a game with or against Bronny. The Lakers have a couple picks in this draft. Although there is the plot twist of like the Pelicans still have to notify the Lakers about whether they want the Lakers number 17 pick this year or they want to kick that to next year. Most people expect them to kick it to next year. They wouldn't take him at 17 anyway. No, no, no. I'm just reminding people that there's this Pelicans plot twist like hanging over the Lakers first round pick. Yeah.

What do I need to know about Bronny James and his viability as a draft candidate? Like what the next three to four weeks are going to mean for him? What teams want to see from him at the combine? All of that.

I liked Ronnie James coming out of high school. I thought he made significant progress. Every time I had seen him, I thought his body was filling out. He's one of the best defenders in his high school class. His shot was improving. And then he had this cardiac episode, which sidelined him for almost five months. It completely derailed his summer.

And I think it really messed up his freshman season. And so he had a disappointing year. And, you know, there's not a lot of enthusiasm around him right now amongst NBA people because he's so far off from helping a team win games. And so... And then...

But he has an opportunity now in the next few days to really improve his standing. He's going to play in the 5-on-5, which is a positive sign for him. Not a lot of players are playing in the 5-on-5 from what we've heard. It's going to be probably the most...

number of guys we know withdrawing from the scrimmages that we've ever seen and so we got to watch someone and so Ronnie is an interesting guy to watch and the NBA draft combine 2024 you got to watch someone come on come on to Chicago there'll be some somebody's gonna play exactly so

You know, I'm rooting for him. I feel like we didn't get a chance to see the best of him in his freshman year. Me personally, I would like to see him go back to college and come into the NBA on the red carpet, you know, as a guy who's more ready to help a team win games. And I think there's a lot more that he can show people. But maybe it maybe it all happens here in Chicago. He's got, you know, two games and he's got a damn drills and then all these workouts. So maybe he can start to build some momentum here.

I, I, that would be great. I I've always been skeptical of the idea that some random team is just going to take him at like number 41 on the off chance that that means LeBron will go to that team. Maybe, maybe I'm, my skepticism is ill is ill conceived, but that's just been my take. I, again, this is not my beat. I haven't dove too far into it. Um,

I don't know. I mean, would the Lakers take him just to take him? We're going to get answers to these questions based on, I guess, his viability as a draft candidate. But I've always been skeptical. Do they want him? One, does LeBron actually want to play with him? Two, you know, like, and what do they do with him when they do draft him? Three, like, is having him on the South Bay Lakers, does that make LeBron happy? You know, like, I don't know. You know, it's just like, these are the questions that, you know, NBA teams are asking.

Well, it was a wild lottery, and now we have, what, six weeks, about five and a half, six weeks, something like that, until the actual draft in Brooklyn. We will be leaning a lot on you and Jeremy Wu for your content, which is second to none. Jonathan Givoni, you have a busy day here in Chicago watching all these guys, whoever is playing, talking to a million people. I will see you down there as I also talk to a million people. But thank you for a little time this morning, my friend. Thanks, Zach. See you at the gym.

For the first time, Monday Night Football streams exclusively on ESPN+.

Jim Harbaugh makes his long-awaited return to the Monday Night Lights. Touchdown, LA! And the Chargers add to their lead. As the Chargers meet rookie Marvin Harrison Jr. and the Cardinals in the down. Murray scrambling. Harrison! 60 yards. Touchdown. Chargers-Cardinals. Monday, October 21st at 9 p.m. Eastern. Streaming exclusively on ESPN+. Sign up now at ESPN+.com.