DeRozan to the Kings, PG on talks with the Clips, the Walls Closing in on the Heat, and an Olympics Preview
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And now, The Low Post. Welcome to The Low Post podcast. I hope you all had a good Fourth of July. The NBA off-season business, at least the most pressing part of it, is mostly done after a wave of transactions over the long weekend. We now await the fates of Lowry Markkinen and Brandon Ingram, which could happen today, never in two months. So the high alert transactions, I think, I think, you never know in the NBA, are going

I think are over, but we have some stuff to review from over the weekend. It was a busy weekend with DeMar DeRozan, Paul George's podcast, Buddy Heald, the Caleb Martin fiasco, which was a fiasco. Chris Herring, how are you, sir? I'm doing well, Zach. How are you? I'm hanging in. Do you have a good 4th?

It was a little zany, but it worked out okay. Zany? Zany? Not a word you hear a lot. A word that's very familiar to me, Mr. Herring, because when you play, you know the name game you play as an icebreaker and some stupid get-to-know-you shenanigans where you have to pick a word that describes you and also starts with the letter that your name starts with? You do not have a lot of options with Z. I'm not a particularly zany person, but I leaned hard on zany because I don't know

I don't know what else to go with. Oh, man. Flashbacks. Obviously, you've been a teacher. I've taught as a professor. And my fiance is a middle school teacher. She's actually just leaving a summer school class that she's teaching now. So icebreakers are all familiar to us and kind of a nightmare to plan if you don't have a good one. And I've never been in that position where I had to come up with one for Z because I've got a slightly more common letter that we use for my name. But yeah, I had not thought about Zany.

Fireworks pro or con? I think because I've lived here in New York City for long enough, I'm generally con in terms of the firecrackers and fireworks that go off in your neighborhood well after hours, on the third, on the second, because people can't wait to shoot them off. Pro seeing them in an environment where everybody's kind of gathered around to watch them. That was what my fiance and I did. When you asked how was the fourth...

Kind of spur of the moment, she was like, let's go on a dinner cruise situation to see fireworks sort of thing. Not like a big extravagant one, but I'm kind of bougie sometimes. So I got us an extravagant one, but then I realized that...

against my better nature. This is my nature, I guess. I misread the time or thought I had misread the time for the boarding time. So we missed the luxurious one with like the four or five course dinner. And we definitely got the one with the really bad dinner and a lot of college students. And so there were people like kind of

Just all over kind of, I don't know, just a lot of folks that were maybe not my favorites as far as just like, hey, like, so what are you doing here? And, you know, people kind of ogling my fiance like drunkenly. And it was like not necessarily the crew that I wanted. But I think I'm going to get a refund because it actually wasn't my fault. I didn't misread the time. They printed the wrong time on the ticket that I bought. So I'm hopeful that I'll get a refund on what I initially bought, at least more information than you needed. I am pro fireworks.

For five minutes. For five minutes. For five minutes. After a minute five of the show, I'm like, okay. Like, I get it. Unless you're going to unveil a new trick of some kind. Like, oh, that firework is a smiley face. That was the big one like six, seven years ago. Oh, that big firework, you know, has like a mouth that moves as if it's talking. Like, if you're going to do something like that, I'll tune in. If it's just the same basic stuff, I don't need the 35-minute show. Oh, Zach.

They've got the drones now. They've got the drones that are kind of cool. You know who likes the drones, Chris? Dogs. Dogs like the drones. These poor dogs. That was going to be my question. These poor dogs. Do you have one? Because that was going to be my question is when I lived in New York City before, I had a dog and I felt so bad for her just all the time. I'll tell you, my daughter, not a listener to the Low Post podcast, so I can say this, save space, agitating real hard for a dog. It's going to be an interesting 12 months.

You're going to give in. The fact that you're putting a limit on how long, I know you're going to give in, and it's going to be a net positive. Trust me. I want a Bernese Mountain dog. That's the dog I want. Beautiful. Anyway, okay. Over the weekend, a couple of things happened. Number one, we have to start with Paul George, who dropped the much-anticipated episode of Podcast P, which is a solid podcast. I have to say, Paul does a good job, and his co-hosts do a good job explaining his –

journey out of the Clippers and to the Philadelphia 76ers in what is still, I think, probably the most impactful move of free agency to date and probably will remain so as well. He detailed a full from October till July, so a full nine months of back and forth with the Clippers, starting with the Clippers' initial pitch and concluding with Paul saying, I will take what Kawhi took and

Three years, 150, whatever. The Clippers being willing to do that, but Paul George insisting on a no trade clause saying, hey, look, these negotiators have been kind of

maybe not acrimonious, but maybe not awesome. And if I'm going to sign this deal that I wasn't really psyched to sign or you weren't really psyched to give to me, I want the protection of no trade clause. Clippers said, no, just on principle, we ain't doing that. We're not doing that for anybody. There's only two no trade clauses in the NBA right now. LeBron got one and we saw what Bradley Beal's no trade clause. It is market. We're not doing it. Said, okay, bye. I'm going to Philadelphia. What struck you? This was an unusual look behind the curtain. Yeah.

And if you're going to have a player podcast, this is what we want. Kudos to Paul George. This is what we want. Additional kudos. I think based on what I've heard, most of this nine-month narrative, this is a four-and-a-half-minute clip that I watched today. Most of this nine-month narrative was pretty accurate based on what I've heard. So starting there, what struck you about the revelations in PG's monologue?

Well, I'll say this. The first question I had was exactly what you said. Like, can we trust him to be a reliable narrator? And if we can, a little surprising. But I also think I come back to the question I think a lot of us have had is how badly did they want him back? Because.

The question that I had, and I wrote this in a column, if you'd call it that, like kind of a winner's loser's column. I didn't even list the Clippers as a winner or a loser. I kind of just put them in there as a huh. Because like, why would you if you knew that you were going to take this stance with Paul George, that you were going to be somewhat hard line.

You're offering him a good deal of money. No one would deny that, but not what you know he's going to be offered elsewhere as far as other teams are going to give him exactly what he wants. So if you're not going to do that and you know you're not going to do that, why not at least offer him something that puts him on exactly the same timeline and the same money as Kawhi? They've both had injury issues. They both agreed to sign there together, which is exactly what Paul said on the podcast. So that was the question that I asked straight up was why not give him the $350,000?

Which they did in the end. Right. So it was interesting to hear that they did do that, but that they did it after he basically...

proved himself during the season that he can stay healthy that he had a really really good season that he was as efficient as he's been in years uh not having to bring the ball up as much and he also kind of in describing his games played in his efficiency in the season conveniently elided that he had a bad playoffs for the second time in three playoff runs as a clipper just i just want to put that out there just sure that sort of said did that didn't cut the maverick series didn't did not come up

Sure, sure. And I mean, like you said, reliable narrator and narration and that's

Part of it. And frankly, like there have been other times where he's said that, where he's, you know, going way back in the past where he's talked about different numbers that he's had and efficiency numbers. And he's kind of left certain aspects out or that he hadn't done as many pick and rolls. If you can remember that from years ago and it was like, actually, you did. But anyway, I say all that to say it was interesting to hear that at least the question I had was something that the Clippers did offer. But he basically said it was a turnoff.

Because of the way it was offered and because of the order in which it was offered. And he was very blunt in saying, I was already kind of offended, essentially, by the nature of the first offer they made, which is a very real thing. And I think people forget, no matter what number you're offered or how you go about it, it looks a certain way. I also think the other thing that really stood out to me is that he pointed out, look,

if you're telling me that you want me for this time and then if the plans shift that you want to do this, I get it. But the first thing I thought about with that is like, well, they did do that with Blake Griffin.

And then shortly after he signed the deal, he ended up somewhere that I imagine he probably didn't really, really want to be. And that is a risk that you run where that could be the end of Paul George's career, which again, with Blake Griffin, it wasn't quite that, but almost. And I don't blame him for wanting protection against that sort of thing. I also don't blame the Clippers for not wanting to do it. So again, it just kind of puts me back to where I was initially of,

It would have looked really odd if the Clippers had traded Paul George, you know, at the end of, you know, in the middle of last season, toward the end of last season. But if this was the route you knew you were going to take and you were going to lose him for essentially nothing, maybe some cap relief from the luxury taxes that they would have had. I, it still makes me question why they didn't do a little bit more to move him or to accelerate those conversations to get more out of this. I'm glad you brought up Blake Griffin.

For lots of reasons that I'll get to. So you talked about the initial offer and how he felt disrespected by it. According to Paul George's memory on the podcast, he said the offer, which was October-ish, and that's important, was two years, $60 million, which sounds...

wildly disrespectful. Now, I think this is based on what I've heard and what Common Sense would tell you. I think this is one instance in that podcast where a little bit of nuance was kind of glossed over. October issues before the season or early in the season and before the James Harden trade. I think that two years 60 was

Assuming it's accurate, and I don't have any reason to believe it is, because all along I had heard that they were low-balling is a strong term depending on who you want to talk to, but that they were offering him below what Kawhi got until the end when they got up to what Kawhi got. So two years 60 sounds wildly disrespectful. My guess is, educated guess is, that was opt-in.

in for 50 million. Remember, he had the player option for 48.7 million that he turned down. And then on top of that, we will add two years, 60 million, which sounds less bad than just two years, 60 million.

then, and, and the carrot they could theoretically dangle him there was you take that deal. We're in position to have cap space in the summer of 2025 in the summer of 2026. And who knows who we could get to help you guys out as you guys get older, you and Kawhi. Then the hardened trade happens and the intent is to keep hard. And on what turned out to be a $35 million deal, cap space is gone. Then they can start incrementally upping their offer. Um,

And then he talks about how they get to the all-star break. And he says, I'll take what Kawhi got. Give me what Kawhi got. Because by then, Kawhi has extended. He extends in January, early January. So by the all-star break, he's got the three 150. Basically, yeah, three years of 150 after what was the 23-24 season. And they don't give it to him. And that's the moment where if I'm the Clippers and we're playing pretty well, although the train has slowed down a little bit.

I don't really get the reticence at that moment to not do it. I also do agree with Paul George that even with the opt-in, the two years 60, you just can't look Paul George in the face and offer him $30 million a year. I just don't think you can do it. And why I think I thought about Blake Griffin even before you brought him up, he's in my notes down here, is Paul talked about on that podcast, you know, you guys...

Tell me you want me to retire a Clipper. You want me to have a, be a legendary Clipper. You can't say that and be like, Hey man, can you take like what ends up being, you know, you know, who got 25, $30 million a year in the, in the, in the, yeah. Like, like,

You can't say both things. And look, I mean, people remember what they did to Blake Griffin. People remember that they had the fake jersey retirement for him and you're going to be a Clipper for life. And here's like a freaking museum of your future and past Clipper achievements forever.

Enjoy Detroit six months later in a trade that was a good trade. But don't give just don't give the song and dance then just just be matter of fact about and say, hey, we think we're a good team. We think we could contend. We've loved having you on the team. We would be happy to have you going forward. Stop it there. Stop the pomp and circumstance there. And then you get to the end of the season.

And it's too late. Now, you mentioned luxury tax and aprons and all this stuff. And I do think, you know, I was talking to some casual NBA fans over the weekend. A few social gatherings were had. A few beverages were imbibed.

And I do have to say, and I guess probably every sport is like this, the NBA, because of the aprons, has now reached the point where most normal fans just have no clue what's going on. They just don't, and it's not their fault. They just like, it's impossible to understand. Wait, there are two aprons? What's the difference between the aprons? What happens when you, wait, I don't understand. An apron? Why is it called an apron? Wait, there's also a tax? Like, no one understands it. But I will keep coming back to this, Chris Herring.

The Clippers draw the line in the sand and say, we'll give you three, one 50. We won't give you a no trade, which we can haggle over that if you want. And we will not give you a fourth year. And he walks. And then in their statement, they cite the CBA about 17 times, which means the second apron. And I will continue to say the logic does not hold up all the way with blaming the second apron for everything. Because if you're willing to pay Paul George $50 million a year for the next three years, which in the end they were,

And you're willing to pay James Harden $35 million a year for the next two years. In the 2024-25 season, you are in the second apron with those deals on the books. Deals that they have paid and are willing to pay.

The Clippers would say, but wait, look at 2025-26. Like we might have been able to pay Paul that $50 million figure and get under the second apron. Maybe, maybe 2025-26 with Paul George at 50 and Harden at 36, they would have $157 million committed to four players. Paul George, Kawhi Leonard, Norm Powell, and James Harden.

Four players, $157 million. Maybe they dumped Norm along the way, but right now that's where they'd stand. The second apron is anticipated to be $208 million in 25-26. So they'd have $50 million to have at least 10 more players on their team. It's going to be tough. It's a tough squeeze. You might be over the second apron then.

26-27, Harden's deal is off the books. 27-28, Kawhi's deal is off the books. No matter how you slice it, the second apron cannot be the entire reason that they drew the line in the sand in the fourth year. The logic does not hold. It holds up a little bit of the way. Like at least they get clarity now. They're definitely under the second apron now and going forward. And that unlocks some things for them and prevents some restrictions for them. But it does not hold up all the way.

and I, and I agree with what you said initially. I said it the day it happened. I said it in my column. I think what's more than likely happened here is they just concluded this team failed. It's,

It's over. We failed. We're not investing further into it. We're drawing the line here because we just don't think it's worth it anymore. And we don't want to have you on the books at age 38 for $60 million, which is totally defensible. The Sixers do not care. The Sixers are like, we have Joel Embiid. He's 30. He has injuries every year. His knee's becoming an issue. We got to try to win now. Fourth year be damned. Who cares? We'll find a way out of it. And now Paul George is in Philadelphia and I have

I have no idea what the Clippers are. I mean, Derek Jones, that's a good deal. Batum's a good deal. Other little pieces are coming in and out. They'll be frisky next year. I just don't really know what the point is. And they have Harden and not George. That's weird. And it's just incredible, Chris. I'll never get over it. Five years ago, almost exactly, the sort of little brother franchises in the two biggest markets in the NBA. Yeah.

Announced to the world, you will pay attention to us. We are here. We are here to take our chunk of these cities. Brooklyn Nets signed Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant. The Clippers do the Paul George, Kawhi Leonard earthquake. We are here. Pay attention to us. We're not a joke anymore. Knicks, Lakers, streetlights versus spotlights. We're coming for you in five years.

They won four playoff series total between them. Wow. The Clippers have not won a playoff series since 2021. And now the Nets are tanking. The Clippers are whatever. I don't know. What are the Clippers, Chris? I would be interested to see once the dust has settled what the win projections are for the Clippers. Because Kawhi is going to miss 20, 25 games. Now what happens when he misses 20, 25? Is it a James Harden show? Good luck. I bet their win projections are going to be like...

43.5 or something like that. Yeah, they're right in the middle. Obviously, at their very best and at their healthiest, then they can be better than that. But I think...

And like nobody's going to say this, I'll say it because I enjoy seeing him do it. But like Kawhi is on the Olympic team. And so he's going to be playing for a good chunk of the summer, which is great in theory. You know, some people think that maybe kind of getting a running start on all this makes you healthier in some way. I'm not going to make that bet with Kawhi, of all people. Yeah.

I think that, if anything, it makes me appreciative of the fact that Kawhi won the title that he did in Toronto, being able to see him do it as a lead guy. Kind of a little bit against his will as far as where he went. Man, do you know how many times I've talked to people at the Raptors over the years and said, man, if you guys, they were so mad when Kawhi left. I'm sure. And at the mechanics of Uncle Dennis and all of it.

And I've said to him before, man, can you imagine if someone from the future came to you then and said, don't worry, you just got like the last healthy and normal non-pandemic season of Kawhi Leonard's career. Now, we don't know if that's true. There's still time in his career. Like, it's absolutely insane to think about. I mean, it's scary because I also think that the

Way we would talk and think about him would be different. Not that it should be, because I get the impression the guy gives his best effort. Uh,

To be honest, I don't know. I guess we're going down a rabbit hole at this point. But all the years spent talking about the Derrick Rose stuff and his fear. You remember that year that the Bulls expected him back and said that he was cleared and then he didn't come back. And just the noise that that created in Chicago. Kawhi went through the same thing in San Antonio. And I've always been of the opinion, these guys are too prideful, too talented. There's too much riding on them to not...

unless they're just not comfortable with it. And oh, by the way, these are their bodies. They're only not going to play if they're not trusting their bodies. No, no, no, we don't need to get into this. You and I don't, but there are people that think that. And so anyway, I say all that to say that the fact that there were all those questions, Toronto...

made a trade for someone that still clearly was capable if he was healthy. And like you said, they might have gotten kind of the last flash in the bottle of the fully healthy Kawhi. And even then, he was still sitting out games during that season and everything as well. But, I mean, he's had moments even last season where I thought for a good chunk of the season he was playing like a top five MVP candidate. Once he got rolling after a slow first 15 or so games, he was...

A top 5-7 player in the NBA again. And then he got hurt. And, like, it just happens...

every year now like i just don't know what else to say it happens every year and at this point because of it it's just that's where i think it's difficult to say where the clippers are i still don't seem as much better than the middle of the pack but if kawaii goes on a run like that and stays healthy i'm not really looking forward to having to guard that dude and the playoffs like it's still possible that they could do something it was possible they could have won a title with pg i just think it would have been really really really unlikely given what we've seen the last few years but part of part of the reason

You essentially bail on this team by refusing a no trade clause, by slow playing the offers.

is that you don't believe Kawhi, that's going to happen. If you believe that that was going to happen, you're just like, all right, we're a championship team. Just like we're the team that went 26 and five or whatever it was over a 30 plus game stretch with Harden. Once he got acclimated, if you believe that's real and you're Steve Ballmer, you're like, whatever the second apron, like we'll be in the second apron. That's fine. Like we're trying to win a championship in our toilet palace and we're going to go as hard as we can for it. Um,

The other reason I'm glad you brought up Blake Griffin is he announced his retirement during the playoffs, I think. There was just a lot of stuff going on. Yeah. And I've said this before and I'll say it again. But first of all, Blake Griffin is going to be in the Hall of Fame and he should be in the Hall of Fame. He was one of the...

best and most polished and most gorgeous all-around players to watch in the nba passing dunking running the break jump shot came and went but it would you know sometimes it was reliable running inverted pick and rolls running pick and rolls with deandre whatever the whole clippers last 15 years starts with blake griffin none of it happens without blake griffin

And it's easy to say that the number one pick in that draft could have been Steph Curry or James Harden or whoever it is. If you get that pick right, whoever that player is starts the turn of events that turns the Clippers from the worst franchise in the NBA to a franchise that Chris Paul is like, I will go there and help that franchise thrive.

renovate itself and turn into Lob City and then Lob City transitions into Kawhi PG it all starts with Blake Griffin and it's always just sad to me that he's kind of the forgotten man now in Clippers history and had this sort of journeyman end to his career it was like oh he's on the Celtics now what happened and was sent to purgatory in Detroit where by the way he had an all NBA season he did and helped them get into the playoffs anyway shout out to Blake Griffin you're missed we we we miss watching you play

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Related to the Paul George departures of the Sixers, who are gradually forming a team around Paul George, Joel Embiid, and Tyrese Maxson. We don't need to get too far into that. I've talked about how these guys fit. They've got Andre Drummond, Eric Gordon. Over the weekend, boy, was this strange. Caleb Martin signs a four-year, $32 million deal to the Sixers. So the Sixers steal a key player from an Eastern Conference rival,

An Eastern Conference rival that, frankly, embarrassed him in the playoffs a couple of seasons ago on the way to the conference finals in Caleb Martin. Four years, 32. If you recall, Caleb Martin had a $7.1 million player option for this season that he turned down to bet on himself in free agency. There's a bunch of reporting that's come out from Barry Jackson in Miami and several other places saying,

that Caleb Martin essentially turned down five years and 65-ish million from the Heat.

And now is signing a four-year $32 million deal with the Sixers. And you think at first, well, that doesn't make sense. Like, how is that possible? How it's possible is that five years, $65 million with the Heat was contingent on him opting in for $7 million in year one so they can duck the second apron and then extending it a higher number off of that, much like Josh Hart did with the Knicks.

And once he turns down the player option to bet on himself, to bet that my floor is the big mid-level exception, $12 million a year, and maybe I can even get above that from one of these room teams, that mechanism goes away. The Heat can't offer that deal anymore functionally and stay out of the second apron, which they don't want to do. And now you're looking for a deal. And what's been interesting is I don't think any player...

Got the full mid-level exception, non-tax mid-level exception for the full years this year. I might be missing one. I think DeAnthony Melton got it or close to it, but for one year from the Warriors. 12-8 or something like that. Derek Jones Jr. got a piece of it, most of it, from the Clippers. And there are a couple other deals in that range. Caleb Martin didn't get that.

I don't know if he thought one of these room teams was going to come for him. I don't know if he got caught in the crossfire of the Hornets and the Spurs both deciding to use their cap space in salary dumps and things like that, which we'll talk about. But he goes to the Sixers for $4.32 million.

You might start for the six. I mean, they're still building their team. It's a coup for Philadelphia. I mean, he's just a good basketball player. Shooting comes and goes. Just don't ask the Celtics about it. But he's a very good player who can play at the end of playoff games. He's proven that. And.

And it's a huge loss for Miami. I mean, a massive loss. And while we're recording this podcast, Woj just broke the news that Miami has re-signed Haywood Highsmith for two years, 11 million. It's sort of like, while we may not have been able to have both, we have you. Highsmith's probably a better defensive player than Caleb Martin by a little bit. Caleb Martin's a better offensive player by a whole lot. I want to start with the Heat and Caleb Martin angle of this. Okay. What do you make of Miami right now?

I mean, I'm jumping the gun a little bit just because, you know, you and I talked offline and kind of prepped for the pod. I don't know that there's a team that has been more

kind of blah, disappointing. And not just this offseason, but obviously last offseason was rough for them too in terms of what they lost coming off of a finals appearance. It's been difficult. And granted, I don't think it's terribly surprising because as you said, for a lot of that spiel, they were right up against certain numbers that they really, how much more can you pour into this core group

given that you know i mean pat riley said it himself about jimmy right like not to you know harp on that too much but it's a very serious sort of decision obviously you were going to max out bam for his extension but like can you do that with jimmy is it a a cogent decision to do that with him and then you knew that basically even if caleb marvin opted in

uh that it was you know you're just at certain numbers now where you can't really do much of anything else so even if we knew that and even if we knew it was going to be tight i just don't know how you can kind of look people in the face with this group and say like we're still right in this it just doesn't like in an off season where you're talking about the sixers you're talking about the knicks whether you really love their moves or not you can acknowledge how there's at least a pathway for them to get better from where they were at least a pathway

And then you've got the Celtics who just doubled down on everything they had, which they should have. But I just, you know, and that's without even factoring in that, like the Bucks theoretically could be better this season just by at least having some cohesion between Lillard, who came over right at the end of the offseason last year. And, you know, and Doc Rivers is a coach. So and hoping that those guys are healthy, even if you think they're starting to age a little bit too much.

So you've got all those teams in front. That's not even to mention Cleveland. It's not to mention Orlando, who I think has had a really nice offseason. I don't know how you look at Miami's situation and feel good about that. And I think if you're putting everybody on truth serum and that organization, they probably say the same thing, despite the injuries that we all know that they've suffered. So that's kind of how I feel where, you know, I can't think of too many more teams that are more disappointing than where they've been really, not just this offseason, but I think last as well.

I think the Caleb Martin thing disaster, and it's not their fault. Like they offered what they could offer. Caleb Martin's agent made a disastrously bad decision. I think it's a really, really tough loss for the heat. He's just such an important gap filler for them. And to, to that point,

I was just playing around with their rotation, their starting five. And I think if you're trying to be optimistic about the Heat, you would say, well, we just barely got to see Rozier, Hero. I mean, do people even remember that Terry Rozier is on the team? Terry Rozier, Hero, Butler, Bam. They barely played together. So I'm plotting out their starting five. And I went back. So I plotted out this tentatively. Rozier, Hero, Butler, Jovic, Bam.

And it brought back my memories to last season where I kept thinking, you know, like, Rozier, Hero, is it really optimal to start both of them? Kind of smaller ball handlers, you know, on the perimeter, right?

Roger is a good shooter. He's not like a great, great shooter, but he's a good shooter. And you start playing around with like, what if you, what if you can, one of them be the sixth man. Now we know Tyler here was bristled a little bit before, despite winning the sixth man of the year award. Right. And then, and then you think, who would you start? Well, I could start Duncan Robinson. Cause his, you know, his roving shooting is a really good fit with both Bam and Jimmy, but that doesn't help me on defense at all. Probably hurt. Might hurt me. Well, it's depending on who he starts for. It's whatever. Yeah.

And I kept coming back to Caleb Martin as just the ideal fill-in, whether it's as a starter or a closer, kind of rounds out that group. And he's been a closer for them. And he's gone. And now you can go, I mean, you can try Haywood Highsmith, who's had moments. Like when Haywood Highsmith has the random game where he makes three corner threes, he's like, all right, I see it. Of course. He could defend the point of attack really well.

okay, like fine, give it a shot. You could try Jaime Jaquez Jr. who's an awesome player and does all the little heat things and all those little tight spaces, handoffs and screens and cuts and has a little post-up, not a little post-up game, has a post-up game and an ISO game and all that. The shooting downgrade from Caleb Barton is slight but there. He's not the same level of shooter. And if he starts, well then, you know, who's filling his minutes off the bench? And you look at their bench, it's like,

Taka's Duncan Robinson, Josh Richardson coming off an injury. Kevin loved that. This where kid they just drafted Thomas, right? Like it's not, it's not great. And I look at this and I just wonder like this, this Caleb Martin thing is just another sort of chip away at the armor. And you just wonder like, how patient are they going to be here? Because you know what they want, what they want us to sit here and wait it out for another star to try to get to Miami and

And at the same time, try to wait out the Jimmy situation with going into the last year of his contract without an extension in a way that's favorable to the heat. And that could be their trade, which I don't think they want to do. Or like, okay, Jimmy settles for an extension that's palatable to us. Mm-hmm.

How long are they willing to wait? Because I agree with you. The East powers have, if not passed them by, widened the gap massively. Yeah. And I just wonder, like, do they get desperate and start kicking around like Brandon Ingram? I know they're interested in marketing. I don't think they have the ammo to get marketing. I don't know if Utah really wants to trade marketing. It's just...

It feels like the walls are closing in a little bit on the Heat, and you never know how a team will behave, even one with the sort of steeliness and patience of the Heat when the walls are closing in.

Yeah, I mean, it's so strange, too, because, I mean, naturally, especially when everything was happening with the Lakers and it was very, very clear that LeBron was just going to stay put, that he's a free agent but kind of only in name. It wasn't a hugely deep free agent class. And so you look at that and you start looking at the names of who's actually available, and Caleb Martin's name jumps out at you as...

And then you say, well, Miami's going to get them back. And then you think about it more and then you start playing with the numbers and you look at the fact that, oh, Miami actually can't do that without there being real repercussions to it. And then kind of like, I know for me, what triggers is like, wait, so Miami is that

Up against the apron. Like based on what? Because talent wise to me, it doesn't really feel like they should be there, but then that means, okay, well their contracts put them there. Like let's look at their contracts and it makes a ton of sense. Why Riley is kind of sounding the alarm about the fact of like, we have to be really mindful about how we handle Jimmy's deal. Like, of course he's a great player. No one disputes that, but we also know, and we've known this for a while that he's going to miss time. And, you know, hero, you know,

at this point, has had injuries that keep him out. And, you know, I covered the first round series that they had against Boston where everybody was essentially out during that series. Rozier did not play in the playoffs at all. Did you have fun at that series, Chris? Did you have great memories from that series? Yeah. I mean, well, to your point about the Caleb Martin thing, I mean, I watched the Miami hit, however many threes it was in game two, you know, 23 threes or whatever it was for their record. But, you know, but that said, it was still kind of just like,

a vintage Miami heat performance where we're shorthanded and all of our guys are going to be guys that were undrafted and we're going to make threes and we're going to defend our tails off. But that is admirable as that is. I think we all give credit to the fact that they've been great at that better than anybody at that, but it gets really difficult to kind of rely on that year in year out. Um,

And, you know, anyway, like I said, it's not surprising. It's just kind of after a while, it's like, man, like, what is the aim here? And what are you doing? And I think to your point about the idea that Miami is,

are they going to wait this out? I mean, we kind of got that answer from the Knicks who had been more patient in our lifetime than we've ever seen as far as making moves. They decide to go all in theoretically because who else are you going to use that capital on that's going to really burst free soon and actually be worth it? And they decided to do that, granted on another Villanova guy, but on someone that has never been an all-star, might not ever be an all-star. And it tells you that

That was the level to which they thought there's not going to be anybody else that breaks free anytime soon, or at least not that is so dependable that we can bank all this on. So I don't really know what Miami's game plan is here in the interim. Well, I mean, they could always, if things go badly in Milwaukee, they could always revisit Dame. Donovan Mitchell just signed a three-year extension with the Cavs. That's going to be off the table for them a little bit. That was one of their dream targets, I think. We'll see.

We'll see. Not a great summer for the Heat. Very good fit for Philly, who, again, needs to build a team. But Eric Gordon, Kelly Oubre, Andre Drummond, Caleb Martin is a really good start surrounding a tailor-made central casting big three. I talked a lot about Philly last week.

let's see how they build it. Let's see what Joel's health is in the playoffs. That's gotta be priority. Number one. And then, and then it's put up or shut up time for all of them, except Maxie. Who's got a long career ahead of him and has shown up big time when he's been asked to show up big time, struggled against the Celtics in the playoffs once, but that's neither here nor there. Um,

Okay, the other big transaction of the weekend, a three-team trade, sign-and-trade. The Sacramento Kings acquired DeMar DeRozan from the Chicago Bulls in a three-team trade. And DeMar DeRozan signs a three-year $75 million contract, which I think will be partially guaranteed in the third year. To the San Antonio Spurs...

Goes Harrison Barnes, who's younger than DeMar DeRozan. What? DeRozan is just, like, ageless. And, crucially, an unprotected first-round 2031 pick swap with the Kings.

That is the best thing in the deal other than DeMar DeRozan, the best future asset in the deal anyway. And it does not go to DeMar DeRozan's old team, the Chicago Bulls. It goes instead to the San Antonio Spurs, who did the Kings the courtesy of taking Harrison Barnes into their cap room after shoving Devante Graham into Charlotte's cap room and shoving Caleb Martin into nobody's cap room.

To the Chicago Bulls, who have had DeMar DeRozan for three seasons, two of which he made the All-Star team. To the Chicago Bulls goes second round picks, Chris Duarte and Cash. I will leave it up to you, Chris. Where would you like to start on this deal?

I mean, I think we, for me at least, I'd love to start with the DeMar stuff just because I feel like that, you know, at least lightly impacts the playoff race out West. The other stuff is kind of more future-based and that's fine. I'm intrigued by the DeMar stuff. Let's start with the sunnier, happier subplot. DeMar DeRozan goes to the Kings with De'Aaron Fox and Damanis Sabonis.

And is there a locked-in starter? I think they have four locked-in starters. Fox, DeRozan, Murray, Sabonis, which is a lineup that's going to play small. It's going to be challenged defensively. It might be challenged on the glass, although they've done pretty well on the glass with Sabonis in lineups big, small, and otherwise. You need to lock that fifth starter in, brother. I'm already telling you. Well, I think there's going to be a three-man competition between Malik Monk,

Yeah. Maybe is the favorite after signing a big new deal with the Hornets. Kevin Herter, who has struggled horribly since his first playoff run with the Kings. Yes. And struggled horribly all last year and then had an injury. Yes. And I wouldn't sleep on Keon Ellis getting a look at the fifth starter spot.

That's who I'm saying I think they need to start in light of what you're saying about the defensive struggles. All due respect to De'Aaron Fox, who has given much better effort defensively and also has capability defensively since Mike Brown got there. Mike Brown challenged him when he got there the same way that Steve Kerr did with Steph Curry when he got to Golden State. That you're capable, that you're not a liability, that we need you to show the sort of effort to be a leader.

there's not enough defense here. And Keegan Murray is better than I think he gets credit for and can move his feet. But man, if you're going to put DeMar out there and Sabonis, I think you have to have Keon Ellis out there.

I understand that Malik Monk just got this money. I understand that he's extremely confident. I understand in the same way that we just talked about Tyler Hero, that there's a desire when you kind of dominate your role or do really, really well in your role as a six man. And then on top of that, get paid that you you're going to want more. You're going to want more responsibility. You're going to kind of want more shine.

I just like Monk is going to get his minutes anyway, whether he starts, whether he closes when he's having a big night, even sometimes when he's having an off night or a night where Fox might be out or something like that, they're going to need him in that regard.

You're going to be playing DeRozan too, and you know what DeRozan brings you, both good and bad. So I think you have to start Keenan. That's the way I view it, just the impact that he had on them. Were they 14 points per 100 possessions better defensively in the minutes that he played last year? He shot the three, I mean, low volume, but he shot the three well in the NBA. Right. I think you have to. If Herter was coming off the season that he had his first year with the Kings, sure. Start him.

You figure out Monk. I think maybe he's proud to come off the bench and you can kind of sell it to him. And, you know, that was their M.O. that first year. And to some extent last year, too. We're going to outscore you. And look, DeRozan can help you do that, obviously, although I think we're going to get into his fit and how he fits with this team. But I would...

start Ellis as that fifth guy and not even really think twice about it as long as I could have a conversation with Monk about it and not to have hard feelings about it because I just think he's going to fit better because of what you're saying. He shot it well enough on low volume. He's not going to get a ton of shots with this group and he's going to defend and you know he's going to defend.

So Pelton gave this deal a C or a C plus for the Kings. I've seen worse grades than that for the Kings. I've also seen some people be like C-ish in their tone. And I get that. And I think the reasoning for that would be this pick swap with the Spurs. I mean, this is the Sacramento Kings. Like we just don't have a lot of evidence that this is going to stay a competent franchise for a long time. They almost messed up the Mike Brown contract negotiations for whatever stupid reason.

And by 2031 is seven years from now. Like Fox and Sabonis are going to be old. Who the hell knows what the team's going to look like? I know what the Spurs are probably going to look like if Wim Benyama is healthy. Now we don't know that, but like, you know, the Spurs have now have pick swaps from Dallas, Minnesota, and Sacramento in 2030 and 2031. Clearly this is a calculated strategy of A, we're going to be good so we can swap up. B, we're going to be needing players

low-priced talent injections around Wemba Nyama in the apron era with little ability to do it. And that's one way we can do it through the draft if we up our pick and have a better chance of getting an actual good player in the draft. A-plus work for the Spurs. I have no notes for the Spurs. Harrison Barnes can fit on their team. They can flip Harrison Barnes at the deadline for some draft assets. I'm telling you right now, Chris Herring, I'm calling it now. The Spurs are going to be in the playoff race next year.

I don't disagree with you. And even today before, like you said during the pod that Haywood Hidesmith, you know,

got resigned by the heat. He was someone that I was thinking like, you know, I knew they had Harrison Barnes already from this deal with the DeRozan deal, but like load up on these guys at that point, go get guys that can help you because Chris Paul, as we've seen him do before with a young team that nobody really expected much from when he was in Oklahoma city for that year. Um,

Granted, he's not that Chris Paul anymore, but he's still a good player, a very good player. He's still someone that, you know, his core competency is to pick and roll with a player that by all means is going to be great at that. Just because he's already good at it. But just the idea of pairing him with a experienced guard and the idea that you have some wing players that are already pretty good players on this team. They don't really need much. I'm just going to read you some numbers.

The Spurs had a positive scoring margin when Wemba Nyama and Devin Vassell played together. The Spurs, the 22-win San Antonio Spurs. Right. The 22-win San Antonio Spurs were plus four per 100 possessions when Wemba Nyama and Trey Jones played together. That added up to plus 139 total points in like 1,300 minutes.

The 22-win San Antonio Spurs were plus nine points per 100 possessions when Wemba Nyama, Trey Jones, and Devin Vassell all played together. Wemba Nyama is going to be even better next year, perhaps by a lot, than he was as a rookie.

If you put competent NBA players around this dude next year, this team is going to win 40 games. They might win 42. They might win 45. They might win 38. They're going to be in the playoff race if they want to be. And these moves suggest that, yeah, hey, we can develop and be in the playoffs at the same time. That's the Spurs and Spurs. A plus work by the Spurs. The Kings fit perfectly.

Okay, so the downside. I was getting into the skepticism that people have about the trade is you gave up this incredibly valuable pick swap, potentially with a big downside, for a team that in the next two to three years is going to do what exactly? What's the upside of Fox, Sabonis, DeRozan, likely, although the Kings were 13th in defense last year, likely a slightly below average defense at best.

Can you recapture the offensive vibes where you were number one in the league two years ago? How does DeRozan fit into that? I think he's going to be fine, fit on offense on just about every level. But in an era where Denver, Minnesota, the Thunder, and the Mavericks seem pretty locked in. No one is locked in anymore, but seem pretty damn strong. I understand what you mean. Like, what are you...

And this is when the comparisons to like, is this just Bulls 2.0 for DeRozan? Like, oh, you go to another team where the upside is whatever with these two other players who are good but not great. So I get all that. And I think that pick swap is a risk. And I ultimately like, I don't think the Kings are going to like make the conference finals with this group. I think that's unlikely. But...

Sabonis and Fox are just way better than Levine and Vucevic. Like it's, it's not even close anymore. Uh, they're in the all NBA conversation every year and sometimes they make it the Levine and Vucevic are not and do not. Um, and they do that in the, in the superior conference. Fox has proven big game chops. Sabonis has semi, he struggled against the Warriors in the playoffs, but Sabonis is just an Ironman. He just plays all the time and gives you everything he's got. Um,

And so the pick swap's a risk. I see the ceiling that everyone else sees. I just don't mind for a team that has been pretty open about, we're not sure we can absorb a third massive salary like Markkanen. It's going to be really hard for us when Fox, Sabonis, and Player X are all making $45 million a year and we have to extend Keegan Murray. They split the difference a little bit, get a big but mid-sized salary in. And everybody wants fit and talent.

And you don't always get both and talent can kind of paper over some fit issues. I think the offense is going to be fine. Damar proved in Chicago that he can play fast. If he's surrounded by guys who want to play fast, like Lonzo ball, for instance, in those great first 30 games, the bulls have pegged everything on for the last five years. Um,

His mid-range shooting is elite. His pick and roll creation is elite. His crunch time play is elite. Yes, the spacing is going to suffer a little bit, but there are ways around that. One way around that that I haven't seen people talk about is...

You can run a DeMar Fox pick and roll or a Fox DeMar pick and roll and play a little bully ball mismatch hunting, which is a gear the Kings did not have in their offense. And he's a good free throw generator. They didn't, they were 22nd and free throw it last year. Like I think the offense will come out fine in the wash. My worry is,

The vision for this team is like number two offense, number 13 defense again. We're good. I could see this being like number six offense, number 22 defense. We're fighting to stay out of the play-in in the West. I think that second outcome is probably more likely because DeMar is a pretty stark minus defensively, and this is a pretty small team. And he's getting older. And that –

If that's the case every year, this deal will not have been worth it and the pick swap is dangerous. But I just can't get that mad. It's a bet on talent. I don't mind it. I think this team is going to be fun to watch. And the last thing I'll say before I let you cook is a player that now becomes really critical to their team

is Trey Lyles because he's going to have to play a lot at four. He's going to have to play with Murray at the three and the four. He's going to be their size and toughness in a lot of these lineups for 18, 22, 25, 16, whatever minutes a game. And he was very good last year when he was healthy. So C, I guess, sounds about right. Maybe I'd go B-minus. I'm an easy grader, I guess, but I don't mind it. I do think the defensive slippage is at risk of being a little bigger than the Kings might think.

No, 100%. I'm right there with you on it because I have here in my notes...

I think the stuff about him being a ball stopper is maybe slightly relevant, but I think it's overblown because of the idea that he's always been an underrated passer. He's someone that's going to help create offense for them when, you know, again, in moments where Monk obviously missed a chunk of the season, you know, at the end of the season, cost him maybe the sixth man. Fox is asked to do a lot in that role. And so you give him a break and,

you allow him you know when they're running the way they are give Fox a little bit of a breather as he starts to get a little bit older and save his body a little bit so I don't worry about that also as you've mentioned before Levine and Ball were out for Chicago and so DeRozan by definition kind of had to do almost everything in their offense and did a really good job of it and I so I think that he's going to be just fine with their handoff situation that they're going to he's great at that stuff double hand he's a great playmaker and weave he's

Yeah, so I'm not worried about that. I had the same thing in my notes that spacing wise, maybe it cramps things a little bit, but at least you're putting him on a team that has more spacing than what Chicago did. So I'm not worried about that stuff. It's just defensively where I already feel like they can be a track meet sort of team. I think Keon helps them

You know, defensively, obviously, and that's what I'm saying. I kind of feel like he needs to be that fifth guy. If not, then you'll have more defense coming off your bench. And I think that he'll need to help you there. But I'm not as worried about the fit, but I do have the same questions. And I remember you had me on your podcast this time.

Three years ago when the Bulls got DeMar and you were kind of – you asked the exact same question of like – I think what you said at the time is like I'm not sure they win a playoff series with this group. And I disagreed with you at the time. Maybe I would have been right if Lonzo Ball doesn't miss the first year, the playoffs that first year. And obviously he's been out that entire time since then. But –

This one is just the West is the West, and I'm not sure there was a move out there that could have really leapfrogged them ahead of a lot of these other teams without a fundamental shift in moving somebody bigger than just Harrison Barnes. I'm not sure what that move was for them, but it certainly to me wasn't something that let's go even more –

lean even more into our offense than our defense like i feel like at some point they're going to need more balance than that but they're going to be extremely fun to watch they have been for the last few years um and at least this talent gives you the ability to maybe make something happen where maybe you go into a series and you've got three of the best five players and and maybe that helps put you over the hump in a different way i think part of what they're betting on

I mentioned before how it seems like these four powerhouses, Denver, Minnesota, Thunder, Dallas, are quote-unquote locked in at the top of the West. I think what the Kings are betting on is that locked is just not a word you can use anymore for very long in the second apron era. Just in the last two years, we've seen the Lakers fall to the play-in and out. The Clippers fall now to wherever they are. The Warriors fall now to wherever they are. And obviously a lot of that is age.

But I think they're betting on volatility. And if we can keep this team together and healthy, maybe something befalls one of those teams. They already lost Contavious Caldwell Pope. That's not a huge like death blow to the Nuggets, but it matters. Maybe one of them gets hurt at the right time for us and we catch a break.

You mentioned before that it's going to be interesting when you're going through their rotation and who their options are. They've had this rigorous staggering pattern where one of Fox and Sabonis is on the floor at all times. And now they can play around with things a little bit like...

I like the idea of Monk and DeRozan carrying the bench lineups together. And does that give you more leeway to rest Fox and Sabonis at the same time and then maximize the minutes that those two guys then play together? I think they have a lot of interesting options now with how they stagger minutes, and they're going to stagger them pretty strictly. Let's talk about the Chicago Bulls, Chris. Do we have to? This is an absolute disaster for the Bulls.

And you can sit here and tell me, well, yeah, DeMar was going to walk away anyway. At least they got something for him. They're a year and a half late to this. They're a year and a half late to the teardown party. They had chances to trade DeMar DeRozan for value. They didn't. They hard cap themselves at the first apron by using the mid-level exception part of it on Jalen Smith, who's fine with...

whatever. And now you're, you're like, wait a second. We're hard capped at the first apron. We don't want to pay the tax because God forbid the Chicago bulls pay the freaking luxury tax. No money there. Right. We have like a double hard cap against us now because of the way we arranged our finances.

We have to trade DeMar DeRozan and we can't get the good stuff back for DeMar DeRozan. It's an absolute disaster. I have no idea. Like the fact that they arrived at this point where they have to surrender in the DeRozan trade and let another team come and poach the good stuff from the DeRozan trade is a disaster. Levine is still on the team.

He appears to have no market at all. Vucevic is still on the team for two years, 40 million, which is a deal I thought was okay at the time. I have no idea where they can offload Vucevic. I said when they did the Caruso-Forghetti trade, which we don't need to rehash,

That maybe the Bulls were accidentally tanking. That this was going to be a tank job that the fans have been waiting for for so long. Almost by accident. This is another move in that direction. Except they still have Zach Levine and Nikola Vucevic on the team. What is this team? Chris, if their starting five is Josh Giddey, Zach Levine, Kobe White, Patrick Williams, and Nikola Vucevic...

What in the world are we doing here? I mean, like that, first of all, that lineup is going to be a complete disaster defensively.

Offensively, it could be okay if Patrick Williams does stuff. Can you do stuff? Can you do some stuff? This is the year where the Patrick Williams is only 22 years old and X amount of players in the first round that were just drafted are older than him. It expires now. This is over. This is your freaking fifth year, man. It's time to actually do some stuff.

Okay. And like, I like the, like, I like some of those players. I assume new off the bench. He's not in my projected. Sorry. Five. He's awesome. Booze Ellis. We'll see what he brings you. They haven't gotten much out of Dale and Terry or Julian Phillips. I mean, you'd like to get something out of those pieces, but,

And ideally, you would just pull the ripcord completely, get Vooch out of there, get Levine out of there, and join the tank race properly. Which, by the way, you're going to have to out-tank Brooklyn. That's going to be hard. You're going to have to out-tank Washington. You're going to have to out-tank them. But to get one of those top four spots in the lottery, it's Brooklyn, Washington, and

And I think the bulls are not far from being in a position to challenge for one of those top four spots. Cause you can say Portland while Portland still got some veterans. We'll see what they do. They already traded Brogdon for Denny. The Pistons too. The Pistons, the Pistons are going to win some games just by the inertia of having like young players and a new coach. I don't know how many the Hornets, if LaMelo ball stays healthy, the Hornets are going to scratch together more wins than people expect. Utah, Utah is one market and trade away from bottoming out with the rest of these teams. Um,

And Chicago has the potential to be right there because I don't think Josh Giddey is going to like – Josh Giddey is going to put up numbers for them and he fits well with the shooting I described around him. I don't know how many wins that's leading you to because this defense just projects to be abysmal. And their spacing will still be –

Space, great, great. They can hang a banner for the spacing. Oh, you said it's going to be a mess. Right. No, I'm not saying they're going to have good spacing. I don't think – I mean, Patrick Williams helps. Levine is good for it. But again, how many of these guys do you want? And I don't – And like Jalen Smith is a backup center. That's nice. It's worth a flyer. Maybe someone else was going to offer him $8 million to $9 million a year. But not if it hardcaps you. And it hardcaps your team. I just –

It's just stunning. Look at your face right now. I just don't know how you end up in a position where you trade the best player in the trade and get the worst return when everybody in the world could see a year ago, a year and a half ago, a trade deadline ago, two trade deadlines ago. It's over, man. Start the process now. Can I just say this? Because it's funny. The look that you just had on your face with your hands on your face was like...

I'm still from Chicago. And I think a lot of people this happens with. When you cover the NBA, at least for me, it became pretty easy to shed fandom.

because it's like you see the work these guys put in you see also fan is obviously short for fanatic and you see that there are people throwing stuff at the players there are people that feel a need to say that they've got prop bets on these players it's like i don't ever want to be associated with that so i kind of lost the fandom but as a kid i grew up at the tail end of the jordan years outside of chicago in the suburbs and so my best friends who i text with multiple times a week they're

We're always texting about the Bulls because it's what they're thinking about who they watch. And they have been able to rid themselves of the emotion of this because it's like we're used to it. We see it. We see what it is. But for me, when I saw the Giddy thing specifically, because I feel like there have been rumblings about the Bulls being interested in Giddy before. I thought there had. Maybe I'm making that up. But if that was the case...

And you want him. That's fine that you want him. Like there was a market for him before there were teams that would have wanted him. Oklahoma City would have wanted him. And so you saw the way the playoffs played out. What I didn't understand is like, why is it with Caruso specifically the best asset you have on your team? Like a player that if you plug him into the right team, you might win a title because he's been on a title team before. He's been an all defensive player twice now.

Um, you go get giddy, who is a guy that like his market has essentially kind of cratered for off court stuff, the on court stuff we saw in the playoffs. So I'm thinking to myself, like I'm waiting. And I think we all do this where Woj tweets out his, his, you know, his news scoop, his break. And it's like, okay, he's just getting the initial trade out there. But then, um,

Like, okay, what were the assets that were moved in this deal? This player got traded for this player, but what else is moving? And then you just keep waiting and you're like, wait, they just traded Caruso straight up for Giddy. There wasn't anything else in this deal. And being confused by it because of what I just said, that Caruso's value, especially as he developed a better shot, should be pretty much as high as it's ever been. And Giddy's value, like based on what we just saw in the playoff, should be lower than what we've been used to with him.

And not being able to wrap my mind around why the Bulls do that, what you just mentioned with DeRozan and the idea that you're giving up the best player in the deal and you're not getting back the best assets. And I remember back to the Jimmy Butler trade, and I remember this vividly, and I remember writing a piece about this for FiveThirtyEight.

When they traded Jimmy Butler to Minnesota, they traded him for Levine, Chris Dunn. I think they swapped positions with Minnesota in the draft. They obviously got Markin in there, but they traded their own pick too in that deal. And I remember thinking to myself, the same thing that we're talking about with Caruso and the Giddy trade was true. And that Butler trade where it's like, wait a second, the Bulls had been rumored to be interested in Levine a year ago. And then Levine tore his ACL.

Chris Dunn, they had been interested in taking in the draft a year ago, but then Chris Dunn had a bad rookie season. So it's like, why is it that you watch these things that you want actually take a real hit?

In terms of the way they're perceived around the league and you still bum rush forward. And this is a different regime, mind you, that it was when they made that trade for Butler or trading Butler. But it's still kind of the same thing that they did where these things should be less valuable now that you're trying to trade for, which means that you should be able to ask for other things in your deal. And maybe you're asking for them, but if you're not getting them, why are you making the deal?

And that was fundamentally what I don't understand. I was a little more positive on the giddy Caruso trade than most people were. I didn't, I didn't love it, but I, I, I didn't hate it either. I just, whatever I, this situation and they owe their top, they owe their pick to the Spurs via the DeRozan trade. Initially that to a top 10 protected, they're obviously going to try like hell to keep that. Um, a couple of things that I just wanted to get to before I bring in Brian Windhorst to talk about team USA in the Olympics. Um,

In 2018, I wrote a column, speaking of Jimmy Butler, about the Supermax and how the Supermax, which was a response to Durant leaving for the Warriors, had created this moral dilemma for teams where it's like, oh my God, this guy's 31, but he's our guy. He's our homegrown guy. Yeah.

Yeah, we got to pay him this 35 percent max. We don't think it's going to age well. But the alternative is like, do we really want to trade this homegrown guy? And the Bulls Walker sort of conversation. The Bulls in Jimmy Butler decided, yeah, we actually want to trade our homegrown guy. Now, there was other stuff about him and Hoiberg and whatever, but like that went into that. And I and I but teams were talking about this and teams were pitching the NBA rules about this.

And I pitched in that column and I had team executives help me out coming up with ideas like, is there a way where we can make it less financially punitive for teams to keep their homegrown stars on super maxes? And I pitched a whole bunch of rules. I pitched a once every 10 years amnesty provision where if you sign one of these deals and it goes bad, you can amnesty him. If it's your own guy that you drafted and it's a 35% max only rule,

And the pushback I got from that was any tool you give a team to create cap space is too much of an advantage for the big market team. So I said, okay, how about every team that has one of these guys, 35% max, you draft them. They get like an extra mid-level exception once every three years. And people are like, that's okay. And then I said, well, how about...

We just make the 35% max not count all the way for the tax. Maybe it counts 50 cents on the dollar for the tax. Maybe it counts no cents on the dollar for the tax. People like that one. And I think about that every once in a while. And then I kind of forgot about it. And then Bill Simmons in his podcast over the weekend mentioned this same kind of concept about the second apron.

And it jogged my memory of like, it's actually even more of a pressing problem now. Problem might be the wrong word. It's more of a pressing discussion topic generally now because the evidence suggests the second apron is going to act like a hard cap for a lot of these teams. And it's going to foist these painful choices. Now, Bill was talking from a Celtics perspective and how the Celtics somewhere, not the two distant future, are going to have to shed weight.

And probably not even a homegrown player, frankly. So it depends on how you parse the rules. But I do think the idea of some sort of apron-related relief for a specific kind of player...

is a good idea to discuss and think about and let lawyers and cap people smarter than me actually work it out at the risk of the NBA becoming even harder for regular fans to understand. The second thing is I'll bet you, Mr. Herring, that in the next five to two to three years, the union and the league are going to have a discussion about these pick swaps. Because I remember in the wake of the Nets trade,

There was some contingent in the league who wanted to ban pick swaps. If you owed a pick in this year and then two years from now, in between, they wanted, some of these people wanted, you can't swap your pick in that in-between year. That kind of went away. And now we've seen all of these swaps and we've seen swaps on top of swaps and swaps and swaps and swap this swap and five team swaps. I wonder if they'd take a look at that, but that's a discussion for another day. Any concluding thoughts, Chris Herring, on free agency in general?

No. You know what? I asked you to pick your most underrated move. I have to get Brian in here in about two minutes. So just shout out without any explanation and under the radar move that you liked or hated.

I mean, I don't know how under the radar was. I really liked and really hated for Denver the KCP move. Like to me, that was the one that stood out to me most because I feel like it makes a big difference for a team like Orlando. I would still love Orlando to get a point guard like to me. And I know they would have to maneuver to make it happen. It couldn't just be a straight signing.

I know that he probably wouldn't even start for them. I don't think there's a spot for him anymore. But Tyus Jones is the guy that I look at and I'm like, man, if you plug him in on Orlando's team, particularly after Paolo Bancaro said specifically, I really...

Would like to play off the ball more and not really play the point for roles much. They didn't really go out and address that. I know that they're probably going to give Suggs an opportunity to kind of just hold that down as a college point guard and take that role. But I really like KCP for them again. Was it under the radar? No, but it's the kind of thing that I feel like when you talk about Denver and kind of this window and maximizing this window, if,

If the aprons and everything else are not really an object, I can't imagine that you're letting him walk. So there's an example of like, if the Jokic deal doesn't count all the way for apron purposes or the Murray deal doesn't count, although he's not at 35%. But anyway, I'm just going to shout three names and then we're going to conclude for my under, under the radar moves. Monte Morris to Phoenix. Like it. Yes. Torian Prince to Milwaukee. Like it. Not sure it really matters. And my favorite under the radar move is,

Jonathan Isaac's extension with the magic, which is five years. They bumped them up this coming year and then declined the rest of the way. So that it's, it's less money than he was making this past season. Every cross, every appendage you have that he stays healthy. Cause he's freaking awesome. And that's a, that's an awesome contract. Chris Herring.

Read his column today on the best free agents that are still remaining. Maybe a couple of them have gone off the board today. I spent this off the board already. That's a tough column to write. Read everything he did in winners and losers of free agency column last week. Bang up work is always my friend. Thank you. Thanks, brother. Talk to you soon.

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All right. It's an honor to have this guy on the Low Post podcast. We can't do it too often because we're both too busy. We both have podcasts. But he is our international man of mystery. He's going to be chronicling the Olympics in Paris starting later this month. Brian Windhorst.

I am so excited for Olympic basketball. I, unlike you, will not be there, but I will be watching from the same time zone that the games are happening in. So I'm very excited about that. We got the final teams in yesterday. Croatia, God bless them. They made a nice run at it. Giannis threw them out. Spain is in. Brazil is in. And who was the last one that got in yesterday? Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico. Jose Alvarado. Fantastic scenes there. This is...

Is this the most fun Olympic field ever? I mean, this is going to be incredible. I have been saying that it is the most highly competitive international basketball event in history. We've never had as many teams. We have a real shot at meddling. It was an absolute mountain to climb to get into the final 12.

And frankly, the U.S. has a spectacular draw. Now, they had an absolute dream draw in the World Cup last year and did not medal. So just because you get a good draw doesn't mean that you're going to medal. But the way it's all shaken out, it is absolutely totally set up for them, and they're going to need it. It's going to be a real challenge.

real, real challenge. And I just tell people this between 2006 and 2021, USA basketball did not lose. They did not lose in the world cup. They did not lose in the Olympics. They did not lose in run-up games. They'd never lost. And since 2021, I think including run-up game losses, I think they've lost about eight or eight times, eight or nine times.

So and they by the way, that was what they won the gold medal in 21. So like they it is not because we don't have focus. It's not because our program is broken, what have you. It's just because that's how good the world is. Well, we have we have more or less pretty much the best team we could possibly feel going to this Olympics. I mean, this is every everybody is going.

including Embiid, who, you know, had his pick of three different teams he could represent, two of which are in the Olympics. By the way, speaking of Embiid, one of the reasons this field is so loaded is because the host team is actually awesome. So the host team automatically gets a spot, and this is not a case where, like, some team that would have no chance to make a 12-team field is getting a charity spot. France is...

We know who France has. France always does well in international competitions. And as you pointed out to me over text yesterday, they've played a couple friendlies in the last week and blown the doors off Germany. Now no Wagner brothers in that game. And somebody else who I'm forgetting. Like just blew the doors off people. Right, but they won by like 40 or something. Yeah. So here are the groups. Our group, I guess I got to go R now that Croatia's out. Our group is...

We're in Group C, Puerto Rico, USA, South Sudan, and Serbia. As you said, that sounds like a very tough group because Puerto Rico is always frisky. South Sudan is an incredible story. They're probably overmatched here. And Serbia has the best player in the world, and they're coming pretty loaded to the Olympics. Yes, and they've been together for a long time. In fact, Serbia is playing, I believe, on Thursday or Friday of this week. Serbia is playing France.

Serbia is also playing the U.S. in an exhibition game next week in Abu Dhabi. The U.S. has a real challenging run-up schedule. They're playing the Canadians this week in Vegas, which is terrific. I think on Wednesday, right? Yep. They're playing the Serbians and the Australians next week in Abu Dhabi. So...

So a couple of things there. First off, the U S got a little bit of a break with Puerto Rico winning. I'm take nothing away from the Puerto Ricans. They haven't been in the world. Haven't been in the Olympics since Athens. It's a terrific accomplishment for them, but Puerto Rico is a guard based team. Jose Alvarado and Tremont waters, the former Celtic are their two best players and,

They beat Lithuania to get in. Lithuania beat the U.S. last year in the World Cup, and that was without Damada Sabonis. Sabonis didn't play last time. And it's another team that always seems to rise to the occasion in the biggest competitions. Yes, and so I'm not giving the U.S. anything, but getting Puerto Rico instead of Lithuania is a small win. And the South Sudan, quite frankly, is the weakest team at the tournament. Now, that doesn't mean that they won't be

But if you're going to pick, you know, Japan and South Sudan, you know, the, the Asian representative and the African representative, they are the two weakest teams in, in Japan, you know, has shown some success in recent years. So South Sudan is the quote unquote, if you're going to rank 12 teams or the 12th team, I don't want me to say. And so that's just an advantage. The thing that was huge for the U S is one, um,

Because of the rules of the game, Canada couldn't be drawn into their bracket. And Canada is the real beast in this tournament because they're inappropriately ranked. The Canadians are ranked seventh in the world. And the way the groups... I won't go into all the details, but the way the groups are drawn, it has to do with your world ranking. You're basically given different seeds. And the Canadians were essentially a three seed. And...

You know, one to four, the Canadians were a three seed and it's preposterous to call them a three seed. But the reason that they are is because your ranking is based on like a multiple year thing. And the Canadians have sort of kind of just got good and they won the bronze last year. And so they actually ranked seventh in the world and that made them a three seed. And so whatever group got the Canadians was screwed.

And the U.S., because they're both from the Americas, the Americas representatives, automatic qualifiers were Canada and the U.S., they were not allowed to be drawn into the same group. And so huge by just the rules and the rankings, huge advantage for the U.S. that they don't have to deal with the Canadians in their group as the three-seater.

So let's just outline... Instead they get Puerto Rico. Let's just outline the other two groups. Group B, which we will maybe come back to, maybe not. France, Germany, who just won the World Cup last summer. Japan and Brazil. It's a good group. Again, it's got Japan in there as sort of what should be an easy win for the other three teams. Brazil is not the same Brazil juggernaut of old, but they're Brazil. France is unbelievable. Germany is really good. Group A...

I saw this and I was like, Oh my God, Australia, Canada, Greece, Spain. Oh my God. Like that is, that's gotta be the best Olympic basketball group, not including the USA ever formed. And that is the group of death. I don't even, yeah. Death isn't even strong enough. What's what's a fate worse than death. Yeah. Um,

The thing is, the US was going to get one qualifying team into their group. And the options of the qualifying teams were Spain, who's currently ranked number two in the world, by the way.

And always just like, look, the Gasols are gone. Ibaka is gone. Rudy Fernandez is still here. La Bamba is gone. They always seem to like, you wake up in the broad, the semifinals of any term. It's like, Oh, Spain's here. Right. And that's why they're inappropriately ranked number two. They're not really the second best team in the world, but because they obviously didn't qualify. They had to qualify through the tournament, but, but these are the qualifiers that could have been instead of Puerto Rico, Spain, number one, ranked two team in the world, Greece,

Giannis and Puerto Rico. There was one more I'm forgetting. Who beat Latvia? Brazil. Brazil, Puerto Rico, comparable. The U.S. could have ended up with Spain or Greece if the draw had gone differently. Instead, they got Puerto Rico. Again, no offense to the Puerto Ricans. They just don't have Giannis on their roster. The one thing about the Olympic tournament that is important to realize, there are 12 teams, three groups,

Eight teams advanced to the knockout round. So three of those teams from the group of death are going to, are going to make it through to the knockout round. So somebody is going to be the big loser in there. And so a lot, one loss doesn't kill you. You can even potentially advance with two losses, depending on how it goes. So keep that in mind, but that is something going to be super important. And the, you know, the Canadians, the Canadians are,

An absolute beast. They are deep. Even without Wiggins, who's not going, they are super, super deep. If you go through their roster, you're like, oh my God, this is a lot. And Edie's not going, right? Edie is not playing. No. They're super deep. They beat us in the World Cup. Now this is a different Team USA. But everyone always likes to play the game of, okay, it's the Olympics. Team USA or the field. And we've won. We've, again, the United States. It's okay. I will allow that when talking about the Olympics.

Redeem team and forward, we've won every gold medal. Now, some of those gold medal games have been tough, including the last one against France, right? We played France in the gold medal game. It was a tough game. We were down at halftime. The semifinals and finals. Look, Greg Popovich. Australia semis, right? We were down in that game too. Look, Australia had been building for a decade to that game.

And they were up by 12 or 13, which in a FIBA game is like being up by 18 because it's a shorter game. FIBA games go so fast, man. And Greg Popovich, in one of the great coaching moves of his career, I'm honestly going to say that, pulled out a triangle in two in the middle of the third quarter.

And it threw Australia off for like four possessions. Durant did a couple of threes. Kevin Durant carried the U S to the gold medal in, in 21. It just, there's no other way to say it. Drew holiday was great. Jason Tatum was really good off the bench. Drew Kevin Durant made it happen. But, but then the France game came down to the last three minutes in the gold medal game. Like the U S had the lead for most of the game. Durant was great.

And they had it under control. They had a double-digit lead, and France cut it down to, like, it might have been a one-possession game in the last three minutes. I can't remember exactly. But, yes, it was a competition right down to the end. And the Australians won the bronze. Some of the games against Spain, including the Redeem team gold medal game, were, like, single-digit games late in the game. We ended up winning by 9, 11, 10, 12, whatever. But they were, like, good games. Kobe had to bring the Redeem team home in the final. And, you know, famously, now with the documentary...

you know, send a message to Pau Gasol right out of the gate and all that stuff. And yeah, Kobe, I mean, there was other incredible, LeBron was absolutely jaw dropping throughout the 2008 Olympics. But it was Kobe who brought him home in the fourth quarter, but it took a great fourth quarter from Kobe to win that gold medal. So the team USA versus the field thing, this is the toughest it's ever been. And I will not make you answer it before I answer it.

I think when I saw the groups, I said, okay, I think I would still take Team USA over the field because we're definitely going to get to the elimination round. Then you'd have to see where it breaks from there. But I don't feel great about it because if you catch Serbia, there's like five teams. If you catch them on a bad day or you shoot badly or they shoot well, I don't feel great about it. Maybe it's my we kicking in. I'm still taking us like 51-49 over the field.

Yeah, I'm somewhere in that zone. We just have a loaded, we have everybody. Now Durant's injured. It's apparently not serious. He's going to be fine. We'll see. He's our all-time leading scorer. Yes. Yeah, Zach, I'm going to allow it. I'm not going to be writing it that way, but that's how I'm going to be talking the next month. So that's fine. So I think I would take the U.S. over the field, but it's tight. But I do think our team is loaded enough where that, to me, still feels like the slight right call. Here's the thing. I agree with that.

Because these are one-off 40-minute games, they're really toss-ups. I've been covering international basketball since 2006, and I have seen some wild results. There's been a couple of times when the U.S. has been on the opposite side of it. There's been a couple of times when they've been on the winning side of it.

But there's just, you know, it's just like NCAA tournament games, really. You know, you see stuff like, you know, a team that really isn't a better team win because they get real hot shooting for five minutes. You see, because there's only five fouls and technical fouls count as personal fouls,

you see a player flip out and cost his team the game. And that has happened with Luca in his career. Um, and that was, you know, by the way, Mavs have to be relieved that Slovenia didn't, didn't make it man. Cause Luca, Luca was kind of lumbering around out there. Yeah. Um, I texted somebody, I said, uh, boy, the Mavs might be secretly happy that, um,

that the Greeks beat the Slovenians last weekend and knocked out Luka. And the guy was like, not even secretly. They're openly relieved that Luka gets the rest of the summer off. You're talking about fouls and the randomness of the offense. Yeah, and the officiating is suspect at best. This is what I always say when people complain about NBA officiating. Yes, it's not perfect. There's a lot wrong with it. We're actually kind of in a rough era right now

Watch college basketball. Not necessarily the NCAA tournament. Watch an average college basketball game on a Tuesday night. Rough.

And the FIBA referees, like you see wild calls. And the thing about it is, is that each individual, like one bad call is very hurtful. You know, the U.S. is very thin at big men. It's why they had to go recruit a naturalized citizen to be the starting center. They're very thin at big men. And like if Embiid gets a BS foul, which is guaranteed, like it could change everything.

the results of things. So the thing is, is that when the U S lost their games last year and they lost three times last year in the world cup, basically what happened in that, in that tournament was the U S is perimeter defense was absolutely atrocious and they were getting absolutely schooled on the perimeter. It was, you know, it was Halliburton Brunson. Um, aunt Edwards was a part of it, but Austin Reeves, um,

Ant wasn't as bad, but we just were getting shredded on the perimeter. And the only guy back there was Jaron Jackson and Jaron Jackson can't stay out of foul trouble. Oh man. I wiped away the Jaron Jackson FIBA experience from my brain. He can't, he can't stay out of foul trouble. He couldn't get a rebound. He couldn't get a rebound. He could, all he would do is doing this fouling. And then,

They had Walker Kessler on the roster and for whatever reason, Steve Kerr just decided he didn't want to play him. So he's doing crazy stuff, playing crazy lineups. So now they have, they're going to probably, you know, the starting lineup will develop over the next couple of weeks, but there's a decent chance they're going to start AD and Embiid. And so you certainly have potentially two starting centers. And then you have Bam Adebayo, who was their starter in Tokyo coming off the bench and,

as the backup. And then you have some other options, some other guys who could, I mean, LeBron could play center. But you go down the line and you look at the centers, like the French are already running pick and rolls with Gobert and Wemba Nyama.

That's the French. The Germans are huge across the back line. Mo Wagner gave the U S a lot of problems and they have this guy named Whiteman who's their starting center, who was a former draft pick. Who's just a big galoot. He's a, he's an issue. Um,

You know, fortunately, the Croatians got knocked out because they had Zubac. But Zubac, you know. I will not allow you to say fortunately. I do have to say I had my fan hat on going into Croatia. I hadn't got to Jokic yet, but, you know, Jokic, of course.

Croatia had to win a pre-qualifying qualifying tournament last summer in Turkey just to make this qualifying tournament. That's how bad Croatia has been for the last five years. Yes, the Turkish are still protesting the officiating from that, just so you know. Well, the game was in Turkey, so you can... Turkey A. Yeah. They don't go by Turkey anymore. Turkey A. But ahead of that Greece game yesterday, which was the final in Croatia, Croatia versus Greece...

The game was in Greece. And I know everybody in the Croatian basketball Federation, because I go there every summer. I meet with these people and I texted all of them like, all right, how bad, how bad is this fishing going to be? Giannis in Greece against Greece. And I'm like, wait a second. I'm just like, I'm as bad as any fan. And Croatia ended up with like triple their free throw attempts. Croatia was living at the foul line and, and the Greeks couldn't get a call. And yeah, well, and then yesterday in, in Valencia, Spain, um,

the Spanish played the, the Bahamanians, the upstart Bahamas team, which a lot of, which would have been fascinating if they qualified, they have some really, you know, they had a Deandre Aiden, buddy healed and Eric Gordon playing for them. And then, um, edge come, who's going to be a freshman at Baylor and likely a top five to 10 pick in the draft. And, um, huge lop. I didn't see the game at all, but it was lopsided free throws in terms of, um, Spain and the, uh,

Bahamanian players were complaining and Buddy healed after the game. I basically blame the refs. So that just, and I have no idea what happened. I just know I'm not surprised. And I will say this in last summer, the team USA played Spain in Spain in, um,

I can't remember the town I didn't go to when I skipped that. It was the best location and I skipped it. It was the 100th celebration of Spanish basketball or something like that this weekend that they had in this city in the south. I can't remember the name of the city where they were. And the officiating in this game was beyond laughable. At halftime of the game, one of the referees was honored for his service to Spanish basketball and he's hugging...

I can't, this is one of those things that you hear and you, you don't believe it. You think it's from like 1984, but one of the referees who was officiating the game was hugging like a Jorge Garbo, host of the head of a Spanish basketball. And then he's goes out and reps the second half. And like, like there, there were times where they were, they were like just blatantly giving the ball, like at the end of the game, like the ball was just off the U S and they were just giving it to Spain. And the referee was basically like, what do you want me to do? You know?

And the U.S. was like, okay. It was like, actually, I think Steve Kerr was like, first off, the U.S. won. Secondly, I think Steve Kerr was fine with it because he's like, you know, this is a good example of the adversity we're going to face. So I have no idea what happened. I'm sure that there were no Spanish officials actually officiating that game. I'm just saying I've seen strange officiating in Spain before, and the Bahamanians were complaining about it. So unfortunately, that is a facet of FIBA is you see people

wild, wild, wild calls that you just can't understand. And it's, and you know, they don't, you know, one of the things that you see happen is a bad call and the NBA players are used to being able to come over and talk about it and technical foul. And next thing you know, it's, it's a double foul. And so the margin of error, even for the U S team is thin. And, um, the, the games feel weird when you're looking at them, they shoot with the weird ball.

The benches are behind barriers. You know, the coach is sort of out away from the bench. Like there's different rules about who can call timeout and when you can call timeout and all that. It just, even though it's the United States is game, the game is played in the international style. It just, it just everything about it feels a little bit uncomfortable and it, it blunts the American advantage. So, and it, you know, last year they finished fourth, they finished fourth and I loved being around that team.

They had great chemistry and they finished fourth. You're a busy man. I want to ask you just one last question. This is your domain. What's the most interesting strategic rotation, whatever question you are looking at for Team USA in this training camp? So first off, who's going to be the fifth starter? Because LeBron is starting. Steph Curry is starting. Joel Embiid is starting.

And Kevin Durant is starting. Who's going to be the fifth starter? I'm leaning toward probably Anthony Davis, but we'll see. Secondly, how much is Kawhi Leonard going to play? That's a huge advantage position for the U.S. to have Kawhi Leonard potentially as a bench player. And where you can say to him, Kawhi, you're only going to play 15 minutes.

but play like your hair's on fire in those 15 minutes. That's the strategy that Mike Krzyzewski really got going. He's like, "Look, I'm going to play 12 guys and they're all going to play in five-minute stretches and they're all going to play like crazy men, full press and everything like that." I don't know if we have the team to do that because we have an older team, but Kawhi Leonard's role is a question. And also, Ant Edwards and Jason Tatum. Jason Tatum

has played with Team USA. This is his third time playing for Team USA. He has been excellent in international basketball. He was terrific in the Olympics, coming off the bench as sort of the bench scorer. So that's the role I expect him in again, is coming off the bench as sort of the guy off the bench. But he's got to have a significant role. He is an excellent FIBA player. He's coming in off his best run as a pro. He is a champion. He is probably in better rhythm than any of these guys.

how on point is team going to be and how much I think, I think you've got, it's courage going to have to kind of dedicate themselves himself to use them. And then thirdly, what role is in Edwards play? Because at the end of the game, I think drew holiday is going to be in there. Uh, drew holiday is going to be in there because he's so important defensively. He finished all of the games in Tokyo when he basically got on his feet after flying in from, uh, from the U S cause he was in the finals. He had just won the title with Milwaukee, uh,

And he was a little bit off his game for a game and a half. He was a difference-making player. Drew Holiday, I think, is going to finish games. So Holiday is going to be one of the guards out there. I cannot see Steph not being out there. He's just an absolute weapon and a half. But I think Ian Edwards is such a special talent. And he was the USA's best player in FIBA last year. And the thing that he can do that is so valuable is he can score at all three levels.

And he applies so much pressure to the defense because of his penetration ability. The warmup games are going to be really interesting because last year, what basically happened was Kerr went in thinking that Ant was going to be their sixth man and even told them you're going to be the sixth man. And like 10 days in, he was like, actually, he's not our sixth man. He's our best player. And there are five exhibition games and they're going to, you know, you know, and B's not going to be playing all of them.

You know, LeBron's not going to be playing all of them. All these guys are going to take games off, but Ant is going to play. And it would not surprise me if Ant plays like awesome in his exhibition games. Ant loves playing in Dubai. This is Ant's third trip to Dubai in a year. And he's played some great games there because he went there with all this other stuff. So any, with the Timberwolves as well as Team USA. So anyway, those three positions, how much for Kawhi?

How much for Ant? And how are they going to use Holiday? And who are they going to play at their guards at the end of the game? But these are all good problems. There isn't a hole on the roster. I think there's only one guy that goes in who shouldn't expect much playing time, and that's Halliburton.

But Halliburton was very good in the World Cup last year. He wasn't good defensively, but he was a really good player. So if you needed to go to him, I wouldn't have any qualms about it. But really, the other 11 guys, I think you could honestly make a case they're all going to be in the rotation, and it wouldn't surprise me if Curry used all 11. And the other thing I'll say is when it comes to Embiid and Kawhi, you don't need them for all six games.

You need them against Serbia in the pool play, and you need them in the three knockout games, potentially quarterfinals, semifinals, finals. If they want to sit and beat in Kauai down for South Sudan and Puerto Rico, then I don't know you're worried about rhythm. I think they should use the depth. Even Giannis is on a minutes restriction right now in must-win games for Greece. Yes. He's got a great roster, and his curse issue is...

you know, figuring out a way to, to, to use everybody. So don't be afraid to arrest people. And last thing I'll say, I know I'm filibustering on your pod. I'm sorry, but this coaching staff is brilliant. You have Eric Spolstra, who is tactically one of the best coaches in the history of the sport. You have Ty Lou, whose in-game maneuvers are elite. If not the best in-game adjustment guy ever,

Up there in the top percentage and also a very good game planner. You have steve kerr who is a very good. Um Vibes guy keeping the guys together, you know, um setting the tone, you know everything like that mark few from gonzaga who is really really good at bonding with some of the players um, if the us loses the olympics We will have lost it with our best coaches

And this is what I, this is what I said. You know, there were some journalists last year at the world cup who were just defiant about the way the U S is playing because they were playing super small and everything like that. And it ended up costing them. And I was like, look, these are our best coaches. And by the way, there's other like supporting coaches out there, like behind the scenes that are, you know, that are, will not be on the bench. You were also supporting like Jeff Van Gundy. And, um, and we'll Hardy and, um,

We, this is the best we can send with our players. It's the best we can send with our coaches. And so if, if the U S gets out coached, we must take the L because this is the best we got. So it's the best players we got. It's the best coaches we got. Um, we've got a great draw. We really couldn't ask for a better draw. It's being played in Europe. It's not being played in Asia. Like the last few, uh, major events, uh, it's all on the table for the U S.

Well, and if we lose to Serbia in group play, don't necessarily go crazy panicking because you never know, like, first or second in your group. Being second actually might get you a better quarterfinal draw, a better semifinal draw. The draws are all funny like that. Windy is going to be there in Paris or outside of Paris chronicling all the basketball stuff. There's nobody better in the business, Brian. Nobody outworks you. You're the best. Thank you for your time. Go back to your job. And I'm taking the rest of the day off. That's all I have to say.

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