Celtics coach Joe Mazzulla, Jeff Van Gundy on joining the Clippers, and Siakam Extends in Indy
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And now, The Low Post. Welcome to The Low Post podcast. In a time-honored tradition that I have somehow spoken into existence as if I were LeVar Ball, the head coach of the NBA champion Boston Celtics joins the pod, Joe Mazzulla. How are you? What's up, man? How are you doing? I'm good, my friend. We go back.

we go back not that long of a way, but it feels like a long of a way because the world has changed a lot. Having, having a postgame beverage with you was one of, in March, 2020 was one of the very last things I did before the world ended. And we've seen a lot of each other since then because of Boston's long playoff runs. And now you are an NBA champion. Congratulations. Hey, thanks. I appreciate you having me on. Obviously, uh,

You know, grateful to be a part of the company and the guys that get to be on your podcast. And yeah, we go back, you know, since March and I've always enjoyed our conversations about the league, the trends and, and where we think the league is going. So learn a lot from your 10 things and it's fun to be here. One of the things I like about our conversations is that, um,

Yeah, I don't think people who have senior press conferences will be surprised to hear this. But you don't sugarcoat stuff and you are not afraid to be to disagree and have a health and health, have a healthy debate. And I think there's too much fake politeness in this world and in our world and in the world in general. And I like that there's a little pushback from you, not sometimes a lot of pushback from you.

Yeah, I mean, I obviously don't like I don't ever want to come off as disrespectful, but I think just conflict is healthy. It's necessary. And I think it's a testament to building a good relationship. So yeah.

With all the relationships that I have, you try to be as honest as you can, be as authentic as you can. And I think that's an area where I definitely had to grow in my post-game interviews. I had to just do a better job of building the relationship so that I was able to have the type of conversations that I think are necessary to have. And those relationships have really grown, so I appreciate that. Yeah, honesty is important.

All right, let's have some fun. Let's do it. I rewatched Peyton Pritchard's heave before halftime of game five because I said I want to see what Coach does. And what you do is just stride purposely to the locker room like everyone's celebrating. You're already like jetting to the locker room. But here's what I want to know. That halftime, you got 15 minutes. You're up 21, I think 19, 21, something like that. You know –

It's unavoidable that you're one, even mediocre by your standards, half away from winning the NBA title. What do you say in that locker room? Does someone else speak in that locker room? What is that moment like? First of all, the Peyton shot, which you hit two of those in the finals, is unbelievable.

It's one of the more, it should be in your 10 things every time for the next, you know, however long you do it, because it's a shot that changes games. The momentum of the game, ending quarters with the run, there's a stat that says a team that shoots has a better percentage of winning when they shoot that shot. And so it's a credit to our player development team for having that stat, for talking to the guys about it, because most of the time,

the second units are in at the end of quarters. And so those guys buying into how important getting the last shot is, is extremely is there. And over the course of time, you know, every possession at the end of the quarter is worth like what point nine zero. So just shooting it and getting it gives you a chance to win possessions over the time. So Peyton has taken pride in that, has understand that it leads to winning and literally not just that shot, but like every shot Peyton takes, I think is going in.

just because of his mindset and work ethic. But heading back into the locker room, so the team, you know, spends time by themselves probably from 15 to 10 or, you know, 14 to 10 by the time they get in. In the meantime, I'm kind of deciding, do we want to go about showing pregame film? I mean, showing film from what happened. But this time I added up all the points that we needed to continue to take away. And then we went over that in the second half and then just challenged them, like, you know, you know,

Yeah, if you were to tell yourself that you were up 20 points in a clinching game of the NBA finals, how would you respond? How would you react to that? And so, you know, the guys just they played great and really kicked their foot on the gas.

Did anyone, did any of the players speak up about the importance of this moment, the importance of the game, finishing it out strong? They have like four to five minutes by themselves. So I'm sure they did. But I try to give them that space to be able to communicate. So I would imagine that those guys, you know, were communicating to each other for sure. But once I'm in there, I'm in there for like a minute and a half and then I'm right back out. So I saw a video of you.

and your wife walking around the garden court with the confetti alone doing laps around the court

uh strolling around at like 3 3 30 in the morning um which is where i actually ran into you not with your wife but doing laps around the court like five hours before game one of the nba finals and we chatted for a bit um i ask every coach this i ask everyone that comes on after winning a title you win and then it's just pandemonium for three four hours yeah in that pandemonium

What are a couple of moments, whether it's a conversation, whether it's that moment with your wife, whether it's an unexpected glance across the bar where you guys have the after party, what are a couple of moments from that, that you're always going to like 50 years from now, you're going to be like, man, that was that little moment was special. There's like six of them. So the funny one is, so we show this clip, there's this clip on YouTube of a Oregon long distance runner. Uh,

running like a 1600 meters maybe. And he starts celebrating with like 70 meters to go. And he's like, he's going like this. And then he ends up getting passed and loses at the last second. So Dallas calls a timeout with like five and chains to go. It's like one Oh two 78 or something like that. And one of my assistants is looking for his wife to, to start the process of it. And I just lose it. Just lose it on him. I feel bad about it now, but I was like, bro, no, no,

So I'll always remember that one. And then kind of like, you know, once they started when they started subbing out their starters, I was peeking around to find my wife because I wanted to shake, you know, Coach Kidd's hand and I wanted to find my wife immediately. But just subbing out each guy, like giving Al a hug, giving Jason and Jalen a hug, even like subbing the other guys in like this was O'Shea's first playoff.

of his career. And he just had a bunch of firsts. And throughout the playoffs, he had just shown such great gratitude and professionalism for being in the position that he was, which is really hard to do for a guy that didn't play that much. So, like, that moment,

You know, just giving those guys a hug and just being on stage with everybody was awesome. But that moment with my wife is probably number one, like starting my days in the garden, you know, doing our prayer circles and then ending the day, making sure we stay focused on what's the most important and really just taking it all in and trying to be present. Like, you know, that was a special moment for us.

Did you share with the world when I saw you walking around before game one, you took something out of your pocket and showed it to me that I – maybe you've shown it before and I just didn't know about it, but I was like that's –

That is something else. That's cool. Can you share what it was? My assistant, Kara, also works for the team. She, you know, she knows what's important to me and my faith. And she got the old parquet from the garden and made rosary beads out of it. And so every day I get to the garden, I do my prayer circle and I use those rosary. And like, obviously there's a, there's a religious component there, but it's like, it's made from the wood and just be having that with you.

knowing what the people have gone through before us, coaches, players, front office, everybody involved. It was just a sense of connectivity to the Celtic history and a sense of connectivity to my faith. So I carry those with me everywhere I go and I bring them out for home games. So I'm really grateful for that gift. But we also had another, I had someone else with me at the time we were going.

Yes. And I it's one of those interactions that I have every once in a while where I'm introduced to somebody who is quite notable. Usually it's an actor whose show I haven't seen at like a Lakers game. And they're like, oh, this is this person. I'm like, hi, I'm Zach. What do you do? They're like, oh, I was the star of Felicity for five years. I'm like, oh, I'm an idiot.

Uh, this was Josh Waitzkin who will tell people who he is and how you know him and why he was the one person strolling around with you before game one. So did you know who he was when I introduced you? No, no idea. So one of the reasons why I love him is I think he's one of the best competitors, uh,

in like of all time that just doesn't get talked about because it's at things that just aren't notable or don't get the recognition. So Josh and I are extremely close friends. He's a friend of the organization. He was a chess prodigy from like the age of seven to about 18, moved on to push hands, Tai Chi and MMA, Jiu Jitsu. And then now is conquering like foiling. And like, I don't even know how to describe him. Like you have to just read his book. He's,

Watched the movie, listened to his podcast to describe him. But he's one of my really closest friends, but he's become a coach for me. And, you know, throughout once I got this job, I tried to get coaches. I tried to build almost like a Mount Rushmore of coaches that I could learn from, develop my game from. And Josh,

uses chess, uses fighting, uses things to just build concepts and themes that we can relate to throughout the season. And he's an innate competitor. And what I love about him is like he's a competitor in a one-on-one sport.

And like he beat the Russians in chess at a young age. He beat the Taiwanese in push hands, Thai, push hands, Tai Chi. He's the guy in Searching for Bobby Fischer. Yes, he's the guy in Searching for Bobby Fischer that the movie is about. And so he's just conquered greatness and has used the same concepts and principles to conquer greatness in so many areas of his life.

And it was a really cool thing because, you know, when you before you achieve something, you're always like, how do you do it? What does it look like? And you're trying to figure out what his book and what his mind in our relationship is like these same concepts you can use in any arena and they can lead to success as you build on them. So last summer, when the horn goes off, I go home.

sitting on the couch and I'm like trying to take it all in it's like two days later and me and him are talking and he's like just come down to where I live and I was like okay like and I was like and my wife hadn't met him yet and uh you know he lives in uh Costa Rica and he was like just come down and I was like all right like screw it so we just buy four plane tickets and we go to Costa Rica for a week and we just did like spiritual mental physical emotional work

on like the principles and the concepts that lead to greatness. And we just spent a week in the jungle, just like tearing ourselves down and building ourselves back up. It was like one of the coolest trips we had done.

This is after, after the Miami series loss last year. Yeah. When you said tear, like this sounds like Dirk Nowitzki going into the Australian outback after they lose the finals in 2006. Is it like, are you literally in the jungle? Like, do you have a cell phone? Can you talk to anybody? I mean, he had internet and, but like you, you fly into Liberia and it's like a two and a half hour drive. Half of it is down like a one road dirt road. Uh,

And like you're just you're 100 feet from the shore and you're just literally in the middle of nowhere. Like there's monkeys climbing above the house. There's like animals walking in and out of the house like you are in the jungle. And I really felt like I had to just terrorize.

tear myself down, everything like strengths, weaknesses, thoughts, emotions, and build it back up into what it was going to look like as the head coach of the Celtics and like how we were going to build this vision, this culture, this environment, how we're going to let the players be themselves. And like those environment where like people could self-express and like we just we just went through it for a week.

So one of your so a lot of people know that one of the Mount Rushmore gurus or whatever is Pep Guardiola, who I embarrassingly again walked right by before game one of the finals. I was like, oh, I wonder who that guy sitting courtside with his I assume his wife was. It's like the most famous soccer coach in the world. But I was talking to someone in the organization today and he was saying, ask Joe about.

you know, I guess you had somebody from the Marines come in a bunch of times to talk to the players. And this was, this is a little bit third hand, but what was communicated to me was what you just talked about was one of the lessons this guy kind of imparted among many was in, in battle, the leader can't necessarily see everything. And so people who are in it

have to make snap decisions for everybody sometimes. And you wanted the players to be able to do that in the muck of the game. Is that, is like what, what else tell me about who this person is and if that is indeed one of the things. Yeah. So he's on the Mount Rushmore as well. Uh, his name's Nick Lavery. Um, he was the first amputee to go back to war, uh, as a green beret. And so like his story is really interesting. Uh, long story short, like he, he, uh, gets blown up, uh,

You know, during the war is getting sent back to a hospital to recover. They make a mistake and put the wrong blood into his body. So like he's dying as he's done, like he gets his leg blown off as he's dying. He's dying even more because the wrong blood type is being transfused into his body.

And long story short, like he dies, he comes back. And like once he lands at the hospital, he makes the conscious decision that like I'm going back to war. So he's he's he's just developed this mindset and this mentality of nothing gets in the way. So he's on our Mount Rushmore and we developed training camp and the season through the lens of military training exercises. And so there were different checkpoints. And so training camp, there was a military training exercise camp.

And we went through that as a team. And then throughout the season, we had military checkpoints that we had to go through, some were in Boston, some were on the road.

and one of them that he came in with, it was figuring it out, so there was a puzzle that the guys had to put together. It was three teams. It was like four teams of three, and there was a puzzle on each side, and they had to recreate, almost like in a Rubik's Cube. They had to recreate in a Rubik's Cube from one side of the court to the other side of the court, but they had to do it using nonverbal communication, and they had to do it with only one person could communicate, but that person couldn't walk back and forth, so it was a bunch of

different variables and restrictions to which they had to get the same cube to look the same on the other side of the floor using a bunch of different things. So he did a great job just breaking the season down from a militaristic perspective and like finding ways for us to train. I think cross training is super important. Like you can't go the whole season just playing basketball. And, you know, so looking at the lens ever through military was like awesome. And, you know, he's another guy that,

our organization gives credit to because of what he's been able to do. So he's another Mount Rushmore guy. Your father was a high school coach in the Providence area. Yeah. He passed away in 2020. You were already with the Celtics by that point. I haven't heard you talk much about this. Was he, was he a Celtics fan? Oh yeah. Yeah. And, and so what did it mean for him that you were not only an assistant coach, but you were an assistant coach with this franchise and,

And, you know, I saw this photo that a journalist in Rhode Island took of his of his gravestone that is draped now in Celtics banner 18 jerseys memorabilia. What I mean, have you have you seen the photos? I assume you haven't had time to go visit his gravestone since the championship. Maybe you have. But like what is what is all swirling in your head about that? Yeah. So it's interesting is like when I got the job, he had just his brain cancer had just started developing. So he was already kind of.

losing, you know, his sharpness. So I'm not quite sure if he could grasp that I was the assistant coach of the Celtics when I got the job. But that was a cool moment because you get a dream and a nightmare at the same time. And I knew that, like, for me, like, that was why it was ordained.

And that's why I knew I was exactly where I was supposed to be because the same week and a half that I get the job, he gets brain cancer. And so you have to, you have to get both sides of the coin at the same time and work through that, which was, you know, at the time, beautiful for me to grow. And, uh, so, you know, really, uh,

my when I went to Costa Rica, it was like, how can I take who I am as a person, what he taught me, what my mom taught me, and how can I turn that into leadership qualities that can help the organization move forward, but also allow the guys to express themselves. So really, like everything came down to that. Like, how can I self-express through what I've learned from my parents, from him, and also make it a space to where the guys can do that for themselves? Like, I think it comes down to self-expression.

Before I ask you a serious basketball question, speaking of your dad, you told this story on part in my take about like two men enter, one man leave. Yes. Like fighting. You called it the alpha male challenge and you described it as a muddy baseball field. He closes the gate and you fight. And your game plan was, I think you put it, throw mud in his face and kick him in the nuts. Yes. That was the only thing I could think of.

I thought it was right at the time. Did you actually fight your father? Like were there were there fisticuffs like that was left unclear to me? I'm like, I don't know if I could fight my father, who was also a coach, by the way. Yeah. I mean, fight's a strong word because by the time I threw mud and tried to kick him, he grabbed me by the heel, leg swept me, had me down. And then it turned into like a submission contest to where I was like fighting to, you know, not get submitted for like three to four minutes.

But that actually happened. It was one of the life-changing moments for me. And that was an alpha male thing. Like, listen, if you're going to go after something, if you think you can do it, then you better man up and do it. And if you don't, then you've got to keep your mouth shut. I was going to say, how old were you and what prompted this? Like, I get the – it's not how I was raised, but I get the lesson he's trying to impart. But like what actually prompted like we got to do this?

If I had to, if I remember correctly, I was 16. So I was probably an a-hole teenager, like growing up being a smartass. We had a soccer game that day, but because of the rain, the game had gotten canceled. So probably me being a teenager, a smartass, a combination of that, a combination of like, I lived 25 minutes away.

And because the game got canceled, he had to come pick me up. So he was probably pissed off, got stuck in traffic that he then had to come pick me up. And then I was in the car with one of my friends who was on the team that we were giving a ride home at the time that lived near the field. And I was, you know, I was probably being a smart ass in the car because my friend was in the car and he was just like, I had enough. Like this is now you're at the age where it's like we're doing this. I don't think one of my favorite moments in life.

Now I'm on the sidetrack of like funny Joan Bazula questions. So I've, we've talked about the town and your town obsession, which I think you've, I think you've kicked a little bit, but I, this is something that goes through. First of all, have you kicked it? When is the last time you watched the town? Not as much now because it's become such a thing. Like I,

but as an assistant i would always do the defensive edits right after the game and i always like to finish the defensive edits and like my player development edits and so i would throw it on two three nights four nights a week depending upon where we were just as background noise and so i don't watch it as much anymore but uh heavily quote quoted in uh you know staff locker rooms okay so this is a question i asked myself because

if I, if all else fails in my life, I would like to become like a nonviolent bank robber. Like that would be one of my plan B's. Like I want to be at a totally nonviolent crew of bank robbers. Um, and,

And I've already like, I, so I think about like, all right, if that were to happen, like what I watch, it's obviously not a nonviolent scene, but you've talked about the dark night before when I watched the bank robbery month scene, that's the first 15 minutes. It's a masterpiece scene, not nonviolent to be clear. That's not what I want to do. But I think like, what could, what role could I play in the crew? And I have, I think I have my role picked out. What is your bank robbery crew role? Like what can you, if we decide to form a bank robbery ring. Yeah.

What is your role going to be?

I would either want to, I either want to be, I want to plan the whole thing, like attention to detail, like assign people to like find the people that you know, those personalities and characteristics work for each positioning that you need. Like, I think it all, it's all about the preparation. Like I think once you're in that moment, you have to rely on the preparation similar to a game. So I would like to be the guy that plans it and hires the people and sets it in motion or the guy that has to have steady hands, control his breathing to execute the safe.

That's my job. That's my, you can't have that. That's the only thing I can do. That's the only thing I can do. I can't be like a scary enforcer. I definitely can't be the getaway driver. Like I'm not a good enough driver, but I can, I have a steady hand and if you let me focus, I'm good under pressure. That's my own. That's I mean, maybe there's another job that you as planner could think of for me, but that's the job I've got reserved for myself. There's a great show about Netflix, how to rob a bank. That's how my list to start watching.

I mean, I have heard I have heard it's it's based on like two guys who serve time for robbing banks around like the Pacific Northwest, I think. Right. So, I mean, like, listen, it's obviously we're not condoning this at all, but the preparation and attention to detail. Have you seen Catching Lightning on Showtime? No, that is even better. So it's about a UFC fighter that gets his first UFC contract. But in the meantime, he's a part of the biggest bank heist in world history.

And like no one knew about it. It's like this eight person theme. And it's an unbelievable show. So again, I enjoy I enjoy studying the why. Like, why did you get away with it? Why did you like you didn't cross your T's dot your eyes? I guess the same as putting a game plan together.

To be clear, we are not condoning any of this. We don't have any actual plans to rob banks. I will say I am just a sucker for heist movies to the point that we have a dad's heist movie club in my neighborhood that has met zero times and watched zero heist movies because we're all too busy to do it. But we have a list of like, what are the best heist movies we haven't seen yet? So this is in in.

In the ether. All right. Back, back to basketball. Catching lightning is going to go on that list. Okay. It's on. Back to basketball. I just want to put in perspective. You're 35 years old, right, Joe? Yes. Yeah. How, how quickly this has happened. So this was told to me, and I want you to tell me if it's accurate. You get hired as an assistant with the main then Red Claws, now the main Celtics who are the G League team.

And I think it was pretty late in the hiring cycle that you got that job. Yeah, right around the end of September, beginning of October. And it was told to me that the salary for that job was $15,000 and a shared hotel room with another coach.

And that you at one point said, hey, like, I don't need like I don't need the hotel room. If you can give me the equivalent money for the hotel room, I'll sleep in the practice facility. And they said, no, that doesn't really help us because it's a double hotel room. Fifteen thousand in a shared hotel room and an extended stay hotel in Portland, Maine. Is that true? Most of it. Yeah. Yeah. Most of it. I think I tried to waive the benefits.

Because I was like, I'm just not going to get hurt. Like, I just don't have time. Like, I don't need benefits. Like, I'm not going to get sick and I'm not going to get hurt. So like, can I get whatever the difference of the benefits would be? Because my wife had a full-time job in West Virginia and she was with the kids and she was going to school. And so it was a leap of faith.

But it was well worth it. Like that was the best, one of the best years of coaching that I had because I went from an ecosystem where I was heavily relied upon by the players and the coach that I was working for. And then I went into an ecosystem where like I was the dumbest guy in the room. I was like lowest on the totem pole. And I just had to shut up and like learn. And like all the coaches in front of me were like great professional coaches. And, you know, my time there with Scott Morrison and the staff was like,

invaluable for my coaching career. It strikes me when you were talking about Costa Rica, I meant to ask you this because what you're really talking about is going there after losing game seven in Miami and beginning the process of preparing for the following season, which is not going to start for two, three months in terms of when everyone starts coming back. And that's the process you didn't get when you took over the team from Emeo Doka. Everybody knows the circumstances of that. But I wondered if you could kind of now that you've had some time to reflect on

boil down how important it is as the head coach to have that time and a couple of like maybe the concrete run of the mill changes you made to the team's routine that were like your changes you wanted to do them you thought they would work

I mean, I think there's two transitions that you have to go through. One, you have to figure out who am I going to be as the head coach? Who am I going to be as a head coach? Like, who am I? How am I going to communicate? How am I going to talk to people? How am I going to run the organization? How am I going to carry myself? How am I going to handle success, failure, immediate? Like, you have to figure out, like, who am I? So going to Costa Rica, before I could figure out who I wanted to be in the building, I had to figure out who I was as a person, as the coach.

And that was it. And then when I got back, it was like, okay, now I have a game plan on how to implement this as far as my own personal development. Now let's start working, uh, as a team, you know, meeting with the guys. Hey, how do you want the organization to run? What are you like? What didn't you like? Uh, what do we need more of? What don't we need more of? How are we going to handle X, Y, and Z? Uh,

you know, so, and then creating like a shared mental model of like, by the first day of training camp, we have to be able to answer the question of like, this is how we do things around here. This is how we're going to do them. And it's got to come from everybody. It's got to come from the players. It's got to come from what the people in the kitchen staff needed, what the sports science needed, what the security team needed. Um, but you know, mostly it was like, Hey guys, like how do we want to run this thing? And, uh, how do we want our environment to be like? So a lot of it, you know, comes from them, uh,

And they did a heck of a job just setting the temperature of the organization every day. I'm going to share something, not private because I'm going to share it, but the EMA thing was like an earthquake, obviously, all around the league and particularly for the Celtics. And I remember texting you and some other assistant coaches that I knew

just sort of how are you doing? How are you hanging in? And then when it was clear, you were the front runner to get the job on an interim basis at that time, I either we either talked on the phone or I text you like, hey, I know. I know this is a lot like, how are you? Are you ready? And you were just so matter of fact, like, I'm ready. Like, I've been preparing for this. I'm ready. And I was like, oh, oh, OK. Like, he's ready. Like you. And it wasn't a front and it wasn't

You really thought like, yeah, these are crazy circumstances, but I'm, I'm, this is what I've been preparing for. Yeah. I mean, like you're never really ready, but I was ready to start, you know, like I knew it was going to be hard. I knew I was going to fail in some capacity. I knew I was going to make a ton of mistakes. I knew it was going to be a point in time where it was like, uh,

you know, what's going on here. But I was ready to start and I was ready to start the process of what the transition that we needed to make. And a lot because of like how I got the job, you know, under the circumstances of my dad in the situation. And then, you know, obviously it was another sign because, you know, for the door to Utah got closed for whatever reason. And so once the door to Utah got closed, I was like, okay, let me just continue to prepare for what might happen.

And so I think I knew I was going to fail, which made me ready. And so I think as a coach, you have to be ready to fail. You got to be secure enough to know that you're going to screw up big time, that you're going to make mistakes. And I was comfortable enough to know that. And I think that's what gave me the best chance to be ready is I got really great players, got really great people, and I know I'm going to fail. And if I know those things, then, you know, whatever helps after that will be fine. Okay. So game three of the finals, um,

Oh, I'm sorry. No. Yeah. Game three of the finals. You're up 91-70 in the fourth quarter and you scored two points in eight minutes. And I will note, Coach Mizzoula, that you called multiple timeouts during the stretch. Didn't work. Didn't work. But I wonder, as someone who has at times invited adversity, enjoyed adversity, you don't necessarily want to invite it and enjoy it with a chance to go up 3-0 in the finals.

What were those eight basketball minutes, whatever, 20 minutes real time, what were they like for you? What was said in one or two of the huddles that you remember as that game is teetering on like, oh, my God, is this going to turn into like a massive historic loss for us? Yeah. It was just really calculating because Dallas is great at making runs. So I knew a potential run was coming there.

you know, in some capacity. So a lot of it I was calculating and deciphering, okay, was that the right shot or was that not the right shot? Was that the shot that we were willing to give up? Was that not the right one? And so they had hit a couple of threes above the break on that. I think Josh Green hit one as I call the timeout. PJ Washington hit one in transition at the top of the key.

We had two wide open threes that we missed, but then we had a couple of tough elbow jumpers that we missed there. And so it was like 60-40, the ratio of like, okay, this is part of the game. And it's like, we got to fix these things.

And, you know, so that was really the conversation was like one of the timeouts was, hey, we're getting great looks. Let's continue to take away the things. The second one was like, all right, they scored a bunch of different ways. We got to earn stops here. You know, slight adjustment on the defensive end and then, you know, try and manufacture a great shot at the other end. And so that was really it just kind of, you know, taking the emotion out of it and like calculating each possession as its own entity and figuring out what we can maximize.

I joke about the timeouts thing. You don't know this. I used all seven in game four. Huh? I used all seven in game four. Did you use any in garbage time? Because I don't think I watch garbage time. No, but at one point Charles Lee comes up to me and goes, hey, I know you're using your timeouts, but you've got to save one for the fourth or if it's a technical if you don't have a mandatory. And so we only have one going into the fourth and I had to save it for that one. So...

This conversation probably was meaningless to you, but it stuck with me. We sat down before the season in New York when you were here for a preseason game. And I asked you about the timeout thing because I always said last year I felt like it was a red herring. I felt like it was the easiest thing for people to latch on to who, for whatever reason, wanted to get on you. It was never a big deal to me. I just thought it was like this obvious thing that people could attach themselves to. And I asked you about it.

And you just, again, if people think your press conference persona is not real, you just talked for like four straight minutes about, let me give you an example from a game that happened. If I use a timeout here and I don't have it here, this is what happens. I remember watching this game where this coach used this timeout and this timeout, and then he didn't have this timeout here. And I was like,

Yeah, we're all everyone in the media are just idiots like this dude is operating at a different level. Do you remember that? I remember that conversation. Yeah, it changed my perception, not necessarily of you as a coach, but of like that type of criticism, because sometimes you have to be reminded these guys who are living this every day.

They know stuff that you don't know. And you were like given specific examples from not Celtics games, games where coaches ran out of timeouts. Yeah, no, I watch, like I said, I watch every timeout called in the last five minutes of an NBA game. And then the questions come up as to like, okay, why do they only have two left? Why do they have three? Why didn't they take one here? And so those would lead to going back to our video guy, Matt Reynolds, would then make an edit of

Each time out that was called and why they got to only having two with six minutes to go. And was that time out worth calling? And so then we started studying the science of timeouts.

and trying to maximize those to the best of your capabilities. I mean, in game five, I used two in the second quarter and I was down a timeout. And so part of the communication to the team is like, hey, we got to go on a run to force the other team to use a timeout so that they can stay balanced. And then Drew, there was like a 50-50 call that we wanted to challenge and I was pissed that I couldn't challenge it because we had used timeouts in the second quarter. And I'm like, Drew, we can't use it. We're already down a timeout. If we challenge and lose, then we're going to be down two timeouts and we can't lose that. This is what I'm talking about.

So like the science of timeout, like the science of a timeout is is one of the most important things in managing the game. And, you know, it's just people don't look at the other side of the coin. It's easy to say, oh, they lost because they called a timeout. But what they don't look at is the team that is down three. They have to go full court and end up getting fouled because they use their timeout at a minute five instead of, you know, that's a minute five in a two possession game.

you can get a lot more possessions out of that. And so they don't look at the other side of it as like, oh, why did they lose by one? Because they were down three with no timeouts left. They had to go the full length of the floor or they had to get a catch and shoot three and they ended up getting fouled and now the game's over and you can't advance it. So it's harder to recognize that situation than it is to see the easier one of like, oh, they lost because they didn't call it. So, you know, the science thing, I think that's one of the most important things

and being able to manage the game, manage your challenges, and manage runs. And I did get better at it. Like, you know, I had to learn the NBA game. And that's the balance of, like, hey, there's my system, the science of calling timeouts. But what does the game need at that particular time? So that's definitely something that I grew at, you know, throughout the season. Can you put into specifics, like, examples of what Al Horford means to the culture of the team?

Beyond the basketball, like everyone talks about his leadership and leadership. He doesn't like speak up. He does speak up during film sessions. He will say, is everyone paying attention? Everyone get that? He said that like no one is spared from this. But can you bring it out a little bit of like what this guy means to a team?

I mean, to the point where he had no reason to trust me. He had no reason to believe in me. He had no reason to buy in. And even throughout last year when it got difficult, I knew I had all the players had my back, but I knew Al had my back. And for a vet that's been around a long time, for a guy that –

you know, he's not, you know, he can play to like 50 because of the way he takes care of himself. But it was always like, Hey, like how many chances is Al really going to have to win one? And to the point where like, one of the things that stressed me out the most after the season was not being down 3-0. Like that was a little bit, it was, I felt like I let Al down.

I felt like I let the team down, but I was like, damn, Al has given everything to this organization. We lost in the finals last year. We got it to seven and we didn't. Like, I had to literally...

I heal myself from the fact that I felt like I let him down because of who he is as a person, how he carries himself. And you're coaching a guy that you know has got a couple years left and you can't take these situations for granted. And like, is he going to get one? And I had to heal myself from that. And, you know, that's the type of guy he is. Last question, because I know you're busy. You got a parade in two days, I think, to prepare for. You got a lot of stuff going on in your life, Coach. The Denver Nuggets won the title last year.

And they kind of, I won't say shied away,

But they didn't – they talked – when they talked publicly, Calvin Booth particularly, talked about, well, we kind of want to put ourselves in a position to win multiple titles over a six, seven-year span of Jokic's prime. And it was kind of the implication was we're not so concerned with going all in for the second straight title as much as we are building a lasting ecosystem. I wonder –

How you are going to approach that next season? We've had five straight years without a repeat champion. And I promise you, I'm not trying to goad you into saying something, but I just think from a team building perspective. That's all I've been thinking about since the horn went off is like, what type of temperature are we going to set and how are we going to find that balance of maximizing the opportunity that we have, but at the same time, not skipping steps. So like now I'm studying teams,

that are in that situation. And like, that's where a guy like my relationship with Pepe is so valuable is he's won four Premier League titles in a row where like, I know every game matters in the NBA, but like every game matters in the Premier League.

And, you know, they like so like what's the process of of creating an environment of that? And there is no guarantees. And I think you have to maximize the opportunity that you have every year and the type of character and players that we have. You know, I think we'll put ourselves in a position, you know, to maximize our opportunity because of who they are.

But like that's what I'm studying right now. And like that to me is like last year, it was about like finding a shared mental model. Now it's like, OK, what's the environment? What's our ecosystem going to be under the circumstances of, you know, coming off of one? And how are we going to attack this mentally as an organization going forward? Because you want to take on the expectations of that, but it can't just be about that.

And so, you know, that that four in a row in the Premier League is like I'm studying the science, the emotion, everything that goes into into that.

Well, I'm just going to say, you know, Pat Riley famously, after a long streak of no consecutive champions in the NBA at his championship parade in 1987, said we're repeating next year. And they did it. And I always, you know, I just I was thinking about that today because you guys are his favorites. And that is that is a different kind of pressure. Have you prepped your parade speech yet?

i didn't i have to give one well i mean you will probably be brought up to the microphone at some point uh i have not even thought about that for a second um

But the last thing I'll say about the championship thing is like, listen, you have to. And I know this is a little bit of a thing of like, did they get lucky? Yes, we did. We got you need a little bit of luck. You just don't go. The answer to that is yes. Yes. Things went our way. Yes. We remained relatively healthy. Yes. Like, you know, we made the necessary plays to do it. But every single team like health is such a thing.

small bounces, like the difference between winning and losing and what separates a championship team and a team that almost made it is not that much different. It's 10 to 12 to 15 possessions. And so, you know, you have to have the humility to understand that, like, you know, you've got to do your part by showing up every day, which our guys do, but yes, things have to go your way. Um,

you know, to get to that level. And there's every championship team. You can look at the first round. You know, when teams win a championship, no one pays attention to the first round once the Eastern Conference Finals come around. You've got to study all the paths. And, like, the Lakers, they won, I think they beat the Magic 4-1. Three of those games went to overtime. I think two or three of those games went to overtime.

Definitely one did and Courtney Lee had a chance to win game, win or tie game two at the buzzer on an alley. Yes. Yeah. And so it's just all that stuff. Right. Like, so some stuff has to go your way. You have to create your own opportunities. And so, yeah, I mean, I think it's more about just a mentality and the mindset that you bring every single day.

Joe Mazzulla, we went long. I'm sorry about that. We had some technical difficulties that will be edited out of the final product. You were super patient. I appreciate it. I know you're busy. I always like I'm a neutral person. I don't really care who wins, but I do share in the joy. And I like to watch the clinching game and the aftermath of it because.

I like seeing people who have put their lives into this reach one of the pinnacles of it. So that's just my way of saying congratulations. I know the work that you all put in. Um, I hope you get some time to enjoy it. I hope you are enjoying it. Enjoy the parade and congrats on a great season. Thank you. And I'll end it with, uh, it's really all about the players. Like, uh, I'm grateful to them. I'm grateful for the buy-in. I'm grateful for who they are as people, who they are as players. Uh,

I think the alignment of our organization from ownership to front office, to staff, to players, to staffing, we are just really working hard to be well aligned. And you said from all season long this situation

stop trying to divide Jason and Jalen. Like that's not what it's like for us internally. It's not what it's like. And it's not what it's like at any level of it. And so it really starts with the mindset and the character of our players and then of our organization. So we are who we are because of the people next to us. Coach, thank you. Good luck going forward. Enjoy the offseason. Thanks, buddy.

This episode is brought to you by Experian. Are you paying for subscriptions you don't use but can't find the time or energy to cancel them? Experian could cancel unwanted subscriptions for you, saving you an average of $270 per year and plenty of time. Download the Experian app. Results will vary. Not all subscriptions are eligible. Savings are not guaranteed. Paid membership with connected payment account required. All right. This is a special treat. The Celtics won the title.

We just went deep with Joe Mizzoula, their head coach. And now it's time for a reunion. Jeff Van Gundy, I've missed you this year. I've missed our public conversations. I've missed you on the airwaves. And now you are an NBA champion, sir. Congratulations. How are you doing? Well, doing well and also recognizing the very, very small part I played in it. But it was a heck of a year, and I learned a lot and made some progress.

really good friends along the way. And so that's a heck of a year. I mean, you, I listened to you on Mark Jackson's podcast last week, talking about how in a tough year for you professionally and personally, the Celtics, you said through you a lifeline and, and,

I'm not even sure the public really knows exactly what your day-to-day role is with the Celtics and how that lifeline happened and why you decided to take it in the first place when you didn't have to take it. And now you're, of course, leaving to go join the Clippers, which we're going to talk about. Just take us through that process and what it meant and what the day-to-day was like.

Well, I think whenever you get let go of a job, the sting is, you know, and it's happened to me before in coaching, but, you know, the sting stays there. Whether you have money coming to you or not, I think that sting and that lack of everyday purpose, you know, when someone says we're better off without you than with you, there's no doubt it takes a hit. You take a hit. And so, yeah,

I had talked to Brad previously before being let go, just like I had talked to Dallas. And because I decided I was going to stay in broadcasting, I turned both opportunities down. Then ESPN, you know, then I got let go and I revisited it with Brad. And he was...

you know, he was great. Um, you know, we had talked everything about, uh, like this consultancy position to G league, uh, coaching to a lot, a lot of different things. And, um,

you know, they didn't need my help or anything like that. But I was, I'm beyond grateful for, and I said this to Mark, like you said on that podcast, more than grateful to have someone help me out like Brad and Joe did and also give me real work. And I think the combination of those two

helped me, you know, through like a little bit of turbulent waters. And that's why I'll forever be the biggest fans of the Celtics as far as, you know, the people there that I worked with, both in the front office, the coaching staff, and the G League staff. I liked them all. I learned from all of them.

And, man, I think the year I spent with the Celtics gives me such a much better chance for success going now to the Clippers than if I hadn't taken that position this year. Can you give us a sense of what you said the real work, what the real work was? I mean, even I didn't know G League was was perhaps involved. So give us some examples of like Jeff Van Gundy's real work for the Boston Celtics.

Well, I think it was just to help. Like, so like just for example, with the G league watched every game went when they were in the finals, you know, people don't realize like we, we lost the OKC blue in the final game at home in the G league finals. And Blaine Miller, who's going to join Charles Lee on his staff in Charlotte did such a remarkable job. And I love communicating with him about, you know, what I saw and, and,

he did a wonderful job improving not only the guys that we've drafted or our two-way guys, but he helped, as his staff did, these other guys who are just filling out the roster. They're going to have much more productive careers because of how he helped them. So I think analyzing those games. And then with the Celtics, just helping where I can, like whether it was –

an opinion that Brad sought out or that Joe sought out or talking to some of the younger coaches about what I saw in their teaching that I thought was outstanding. You know, in those ways, you know, again, nothing huge. The Celtics gave me more than I gave to the Celtics for sure. But I was just glad to be on the ride and, you know,

Like I said, it was rejuvenating because people, I don't think realize everybody knows that Joe's young, but other than Sam Cassell, everybody on the coaching staff, and these are huge staffs now is under 40. And, uh,

tremendous, not only tremendous teachers and workers and great ideas, but I think that the key to these big staffs now, and you have to try to do this, staff chemistry. There's a lot of guys, it's really hard. It's much easier, Zach, now to get into the NBA than to advance in the NBA in the coaching world. And that at times can lead to coaches trying to

you know, gain credit, which propels their career. And this group, I think they were remarkable in that way, in that they wanted team success. We got team success. And I hope that this bolsters each of their careers to where they want it to go. So it dawned on me after maybe game two, or maybe it was even, I don't know when it was, when I saw you at some point in the finals, and I went up to you before the game and I said, coach,

Correct me if I'm wrong. All your years, I'm looking back at your assistant coaching years, you've not won an NBA title yet. So now you have. Was it...

Was it more and you're going to minimize the role you played? That's your personality. And you're not one of the players. You're not on the bench. I get it. But was it, was it more emotional, less emotional? Like where did you find yourself as, as the clock is winding down that stars are getting subbed out and it's dawning on you? Like I'm, I'm a champion. Like I'm getting at a ring. I'm a champion now. Yeah. I think my feeling was content because I,

I wanted this for the players, for Brad and his staff and the coaching staff, because when I tell you that this was a drama-free year, I don't think people can understand just how drama-free. Al Horford's been the rock there for a long time. Adding Drew Holiday,

Those two guys coming off the bench when the trade for Porzingis was made. Holiday taking a step back in offensive usage. Younger, less mature, less focused on winning players would have disrupted the

some things with the Celtics. And I think I have such admiration for those two. And then Derek White is similar. He's younger than both guys, but he's the most likable, affable, great player that I've been around. He's just tremendous. And he's willing to do whatever it takes. And then you take those three rocks and you surround them with Brown and Tatum and Porzingis, these

you know, ultra talented, skillful players who also though, you know, when you, when you ask for more or you get more help, it doesn't come without a price for these great players that you have to share the ball more. There's one ball, there's 240 minutes. There's a lot of sharing that goes, that's involved. And I thought those three guys did a tremendous job of,

of championing each other's successes. And that doesn't come easy as well. And so when you take a look at how everybody conducted themselves, Brad and his staff, their masterful work on the Porzingis and holiday trades, you talk about the coaching staff with Joe. Again, people say,

He gets a lot of criticism. I just think the NBA is a very coach-centric criticism world right now. And Joe is up for the challenge. I think the thing I admired about him, he found his voice as a head coach at a young age, wasn't afraid to do it, uh,

to the beat of his own drum and stuck with it in the very, very few times where we had, you know, negative results like after game two against both Miami and Cleveland. And so my admiration for players, coaches and front office staff is immense. And they were dominant the entire year. I mean, 16 and three in the playoffs, uh,

Before that, like 64 and 18 in the regular season basically took the last three weeks not off, but like mixing and matching who were playing, trying to

get themselves in the proper position to start the first round of the playoffs. And I also think Zach playing Miami who had beaten them last year in a game seven in Boston, I thought that brought out a focus and an intensity that may not have been there in a normal eight one series.

Did you hear from some of your old colleagues and players and cohort on the 1990s Knicks? I mean, for people who, I mean, everyone remembers, but you were the head coach when they made the finals in 1999. You were on the staff when they made the finals and got so close in 1994 against the Rockets. And then you had great success in Houston, too. Not a finals run, but great success. Did Patrick Ewing, did Charles Oak, did some of these guys reach out and say, Coach, you're a champion, but I can't believe you're a champion with the Celtics.

Well, it's funny, you know, Patrick, basically I owe everything to him throughout my career, but, and those, you know, like you mentioned those Nick teams, you know, without those guys, you know, me being a non-player and, you know, them accepting me both first as an assistant and then as a head coach, I was so fortunate. But I, I, I think the thing that,

Like it was great. I don't know if you know Sam Cassell well, Zach, but he's on the staff and he was a huge part of us losing in 1994. He made it as a rookie. Yeah. As a three point shot in 94 at the garden, uh,

where we helped on Elijah Juan up to kicked it out. He made a three. We ended up losing one, the next two at the garden and then lost game six and seven in Houston. But I had to see him every day. And I'm like, this guy is reminding me of, of, of,

of great failures every day. And he would always bring it up. And if you know, Sam, he does it in the most playful way, but he's also, you know, making sure he, he, he lets you know, yeah, you lost to me. And, and then they honored Rudy Tomjanovich, the great coach of the Rockets during the finals as well. And what I loved because I have it with, you know, you can't, you're not as close with every player you coached, but I,

when I saw Sam and Rudy come together when Rudy was getting honored and Sam was at the press conference and their incredible love was shown, it reminded me of the bond you form with people you were with for a long period of time in this championship pursuit. And I hope

that I'm forever bound to some of these Celtics guys and that, you know, as we go on in life and they have a lot more life ahead of them than, than I do, but that will always be bound because of this one year. And, um, you know, that's how I feel about Joe and Brad and, and the whole staff. I just, you know, feel gratefulness, but also this bond that will never be broken.

Was it hard for you to watch the Celtics play against the Knicks? And what was going on in your basketball soul as that was looming as a potential postseason matchup? Well, purposefully, because I didn't go to every game this year. I did not go to any of the Knicks-Celtics games. And I would have gone to the playoffs. And, you know, I certainly wanted them to win because, you know, everybody knows that, you know,

Tom and I worked together forever, but Andy Greer has been my, you know, one of my very, very best friends. He's on Tom's staff since college. We played together in college. So, so there's deep connection there. I'll always be appreciative to the Knicks, you know,

They gave me an opportunity, you know, before I ever deserved one. Stu Jackson, you know, Pat Riley, Don Nelson, John McLeod, all four of those men kept me there until I got my chance to be a head coach. So, you know, when you're running through all these people that,

you know, you owe so much to players included. I wish I could name them all. There should be like a rolling scroll of everybody that ever helped me on the screen. But, you know, you sort of have these moments where you're like, man, I owe the Knicks so, so much. But if they walk in here, I'm going to want to win. We're going to want to win. So, yeah, I was preparing myself for that.

Could you have gone to dinner with Tibbs in that series? So that's your generation. You're not – it's just not – so I was talking to people with the Nuggets. Not only not going to dinner, Zach, not saying hello. Like we're not calling each other in between games or doing the high fives. Like –

No way. No way. He wouldn't have wanted to see me. I wouldn't have wanted to see him. No, no, no. So it's different because he's a head coach. But I was talking to some people with the Nuggets and the Wolves before that series because their front offices and coaching staffs are so interconnected. And Tim Connolly in particular is such a genial kind of get everyone together guy. And they were like, I don't like in the first round last year was a little different because we kind of knew the Nuggets were going to win. This is going to be

So to speak, and we don't kind of know what the protocol is going to be socially. And so that you've answered that question real quick. What was different about pick, pick something about the Celtics or one of the key players on the Celtics that,

What did you learn about someone or something within the organization working day to day up close with it that you didn't know from afar as even a dialed in broadcaster analyst? Like something that surprised you about Jalen Brown or Jason Tatum or just the way the whole shop operates? Well, I think it starts from the top with Brad.

um brad's cerebral everybody knows how smart he is the great job he did both as a coach and now as a front office i think because he is so he operates with such integrity people wouldn't see him as like this ruthless competitor and he's every bit of that so i learned that more and um i thought it was awesome um

Joe, I didn't know, nor did I know his staff other than Sam. But what I enjoyed, like Tony Dobbins, Charles Lee, Sam Cassell, DJ McClay, Matt Reynolds, those five guys, Emil Jefferson. I had coached Emil Jefferson with USA Basketball, so I knew him. But to watch him, you know, work with the big guys and –

how good a teacher he was. That was a revelation. Because I didn't have history with them, I didn't know what they were as far as not only – people always say, like, this coach connects with players. And oftentimes that means coddles players. These guys I thought found the right balance between working with, pushing, and also making the players well aware –

that they want them to succeed. And I think when players know you want them to succeed, they give you a lot more. And I think, I think what Joe did empowering his staff, you know, Joe probably, I would say speaks to the team, both in practice film sessions, less than any head coach I know. And he gives great, great,

voice to the assistants, both in practice and in film sessions. And I think what it does is it empowers those guys. They really do a great job, like concentrating. Joe breaks it between offense and defense. Got four guys on each group. And so they, they have their own staff and then Joe's in charge of those. And that delegation is,

was really interesting to watch. And I thought Joe pulled it off, but you can only pull it off if you have great coaches who are also great teachers and the players know that those coaches care deeply about their individual success and team success. How did you see Brad's ruthlessness? Is it just like you can tell how much he wants to win the games or how does it come out in other ways? Yeah, just...

Yeah. Again, I don't know if there was any one moment in time or story or tidbit, but when you watch him operate and he calls you on the phone, I would not answer if I was, if I was another GM, if I was another GM, I'm going to pass on that one. You don't even know what we're talking about. I know what we're talking about. You taking my lunch money. That's what we're talking about. And so, yeah, I,

I think he is, he's got great humility, like Joe, really trust like Austin Ainge and, and that whole staff, Dave Lewin, they have a tremendous hardworking group of scouts. And so, but, you know, Brad is also unafraid, you know, some of these moves that have made been made,

It seems obvious now when we went, we've won a championship that, oh, of course you'd make that move. But those did not come without risk. And I think he studies that risk and he has that basketball courage to do what he thinks in his heart gives us a better chance to win.

And so I was very, very impressed from that standpoint, just that ruthless desire to, you know, win and get the Celtics who have been really good for so long over the hump.

What, what, how did the Clippers job come about with Tyloo? What's the connection there? And, and what, what sort of what, what made you decide, okay, now's the time for me to leap. Not just you, you were with the team, but now I'm going to, you're going to be with, with in, in the bunker every single day with the team. What made you decide this was the time? Well, after the regular season concluded that, you know, there were some assistant job openings that became available and that people were

called about and you know initially I thought I may stay in Boston that didn't really work out so then I started to really like

organize my thoughts because it is a big jump. You know, you go from broadcasting to consulting to now not only working full time, but, you know, you're going to move in and dive in. And it, it really helped. I coached Tyloo at the Rockets for a year and I've been working with him at USA basketball since Steve Kerr took over. And we're going, you know, we'll be together this summer with the Olympic team and we're,

I've always had tremendous respect for Ty. He's like the Pied Piper of the NBA. Everybody loves him. You can't not like him. He got more out of his talent than he probably deserved. So he did it. He was an excellent player and now championship level coach, but he's also just a good person. And when he called up and said,

said, you know, is this something you want to do? Um, I said, absolutely. And it happened, you know, a few weeks ago that, but obviously because of the decorum of our playoff run, we didn't want anything coming out. And, uh, then, but it was, it was great. Um,

I'm really looking forward to it. People said like, or they always ask me, are you sure you want to do it? You're never sure until you do it. So I'm sure I want to help and I want to work and I want to do it in basketball. And so when you can, you know, I've known Lawrence Frank forever and I know, you know, Ty, you know,

And so I'm excited to go out there and help in any way he deems fit and fit in with his staff and try to, you know, help the Clippers achieve what they want to, which is to win big and be a championship level contender. Would you ever want an NBA head coaching job again? Or is this the kind of job you feel like this is where I kind of want to settle in in this stage of my career? You know, the good thing is I've always...

I've always followed my dad's advice to me long ago, just worry about the job you have at hand. And I don't think anybody necessarily just aspires to be an assistant coach, but these head coaches, coaching jobs, there's so many qualified candidates and so few jobs. And so, yeah,

I've had, when I was broadcasting, opportunities to be both an assistant and a head coach again that, for many reasons, I chose to pass on. Whether they come back around again, we'll see. I interviewed with one this year. Didn't work out. But, yeah, I think I'm really excited about this job with the Clippers, not what this job is going to possibly do for me from an employment standpoint.

Last one, and I ask every coach I have on after a title. What's the moment, the conversation, whatever, from the aftermath of Game 5, from the party, from the locker room? Maybe it's a text. Maybe it's a phone call. Maybe it's a conversation with the 15th guy on the roster. What's the moment that either surprised you or you're just going to take with you forever and ever? That was kind of a special little moment there. I think...

There were three, uh, for me. Um, and it really wasn't word spoken. It was more body language. Uh, I saw Brad in the locker room and I hope my hug, uh, conveyed my, uh, gratitude. Um, I think the same with Joe, uh, Missoula, like I just had that like incredible, I just, this guy was so good to me. Um,

And he didn't agree. Like he didn't, it wasn't like he agreed with everything I suggested, nor did everything I suggested, you know, like one thing I admired about him was we got our head coaching jobs approximately the same age. And the hardest thing to do is to coach to your beliefs because there's so much noise, criticism, suggestions, and, and,

you can lose yourself if you don't have a strong belief in who you are and what you're doing. I thought he did that masterfully. And then there was a, I mentioned him before, but I've never been around an assistant coach who is more likable, affable, enjoyable than this guy, Matt Reynolds. Now you'll see him behind the bench. He's in charge of, he has a big part in the offensive staff. He's also in charge of coaching.

the challenge system. And he, he's also like a technological genius. And so the moment I came in, he noticed he's in charge of like, what do they call that onboarding now? Like, you know, that's, that's the term you got to be onboarded, onboarded, whatever that means. So he, he was in charge of getting me to be able to operate a computer in a normal fashion. And when I say,

These guys, all these guys do that. We don't really, we have people that help with video, but they do their own videos and they're moving a hundred miles an hour. And this guy, Matt Reynolds, he can pick something from 12 years ago. He can have it on his screen in like three seconds. I've never seen anything quite like it. Like, and so he was, this would be like the MIT physicist teaching the kindergartner math. And so he's trying to walk me through. I know his frustration level is going through the roof. So he,

He was so good to me from day one. And when I saw him up on the championship where they're all standing and celebrating, to be able to see him in his hometown of Boston, you know, I asked him one time,

man, what's your dream job? And this guy so good, he might be the best in the league at what he does. Right. He said to me, I think I already have it. That level of contentment. And it meant so much to me. And when I saw him standing up there, uh,

truly radiating what you hope your joy to be at any one time, man, I was like, now that is cool. When I, when I was able to catch his eye and through body language, say thank you for all you did for me. So, so that's awesome. And I will tell you when I was up there for the conference finals, I,

uh at one of your practices you were you walked by you didn't you were far away but I was talking to someone with the team who shall not be named but it was not Matt Reynolds um and I said oh man it must have been cool to have coach Van Gundy around this year like what's what's he like and this has been fresh in this guy's mind he said we just had a great moment the other day where where Jeff

managed to load some video up on his computer, like a reel of pick and roll. I don't know what it was like a reel of pick and rolls. And he was so goddamn proud of himself that he pulled it off all alone. It was just delighted everybody. Well, you know, the thing is, you know, because the age gap is, you know, extreme is I can't even see myself now, Zach, is this going to, is this all right? We're at the end. So just, just go anyway. So they, they, they have this habit of, of,

They have a victory song, right? When we win, Matt turns on this song and they sing it together like these lines. I have no idea what they're doing, right? And so this goes on. And they're also playing pregame music in the coaches' locker room. And they looked at me one time early on in the year. They said, like, did you guys not have –

like pregame music on? And I was like, no, no. First of all, we only had like four coaches. And I think there was like 12 people in the room. I said, second of all, music was not ever on. I said, when I drove back from the bubble. You told me this. It sparked a lot of concern for your mental health.

I said, I went 16 hours and I never even thought about putting on a podcast or turning on the radio. I did it in silence. And I thought, so these guys were like astounded. So when they went around, the pregame music, it goes, everybody gets a choice as far as like, this is your game. This is your game. So I said to Matt, I said, is silence an option? And...

He said, yeah, okay. So this was in the playoffs. We had – it was after – it was game three of Cleveland. Silence was the option, was taken. Since we won it, we – he kept it for game four, and we went on a 10-game winning streak. So the first thing I thought when –

I left Boston was they'll be able to turn the music back on. And like, they will be so happy because they were in physical pain that like there was no music being played. And Matt also would bring up, and I don't know this rapper. I don't know if the songs about Muggsy Bogues or if there's a rapper called Muggsy Bogues, but there's a line that says, um,

Jeff Van Gundy yells, stop flopping. And so they would put that on after the victory song. And it like warmed my heart that I'm, these guys are bringing me into the 21st century as far as music and how things run. But like, there's, I gotta say for each guy on that coaching staff, I have these like really, really like deep, like deep,

I keep using gratitude, but when people take you in and they help you and they are happy for you, and it's like when you're struggling to find purpose,

They'll never know what they meant to me and their friendship this year meant everything to me. And, you know, so that's why I feel so strongly and so happy for all of them that we're happy for all of us. Me too. I'm happy for myself too, but that they got rewarded with this championship run.

Well, coach, a lot of people here are very happy for you, too. You mean a lot to a lot of us. It's meant more than you could ever know that you have lent me on this podcast and let our listeners your knowledge and your time for all these years. We missed you this year, but we're all glad you got a title. Congratulations. Good luck with the Clippers. I'll see you in Los Angeles. Enjoy. Enjoy what you want to have an offseason because you got Team USA. So enjoy the Olympics. Bring home the gold. Jeff Van Gundy back on the low post. Thank you, sir.

Thank you. All right. I wanted to end by addressing just very quickly some news that happened today. The offseason is in full swing. Heck, by the time you're reading this, maybe the Lakers will have actually hired a head coach. I'm not sure. But there is another coach theoretically on the market. The Detroit Pistons, in one of the most embarrassing for everybody involved coaching turnarounds in recent NBA history, paid Monte Williams a gigantic contract to

for five years guaranteed a contract so big it single-handedly reset the market for coaching salaries. And one year into it, with all the money guaranteed, $65 million, $75 million, I can't remember the exact figure, fired him. And according to Woj, it was ownership-driven more than Trajan Langdon-driven, or as the decision came down from owner Tom Gores, which makes it even more embarrassing and bizarre because...

If it were a Trajan Langdon decision, you could at least say, well, he just took over the team. He's new. He took his time to suss everything out and figure out if he wanted Mane as his coach. If it's a Tom Gore's decision, well, what in the hell were you waiting for? They're kind of lucky in a way that some of these coaching jobs in Cleveland, Lakers, etc. are still open and some candidates haven't been snapped up. But one of the candidates...

that you interviewed last time around and decided you didn't want when you threw the godfather offer at Monty Williams, Charles Lee, who's going to be good, got hired in Charlotte and just did a bizarro turn of events on a match that was just bad from day one. Like, I don't think Monty deserves a whole lot of, well, I mean, I don't think he was a great match for that roster. I don't think he did a great job with that roster. I mean, Killian Hayes was

starting almost until he was waived and then not picked up by any NBA team. What makes this more interesting is that Fred Vinson, who is a shooting guru slash assistant coach, has been with New Orleans for a long time, including under Monty, was just hired by Trajan Langdon, who came from New Orleans, and that was taken in some corners of the league as, oh, maybe they're keeping Monty. That's one of his former...

But it's also one of Trajan Langdon's former assistants. And this makes it obvious that, no, this didn't really have anything to do with Monty Williams. What this has to do with is they're going to have to teach some of these dudes on the Pistons to shoot better than they can shoot now. The Pistons have some interesting talent. Like I'm a Cade Cunningham optimist. I think he's going to be really good. Make a couple all-star teams at least here and there.

I love Jalen Duren as a rim runner. He's a little behind even given his youth on defense, but he's got the tools to get there. Asar Thompson, like his brother Ahmed, does everything at a super high level for his age and experience other than shoot. And Cade's not a great shooter, although he quietly kind of improved on both long twos and threes last year. But if Cade and Duren are your tent poles kind of up the middle of your offense, then

It's a pick and roll combination. The dudes around that just have to shoot. And it's one of the reasons why Jaden Ivey, his fit with Cade has always been sort of shaky. Like what's he going to do off the ball? Do they compliment each other? It hasn't looked great. Their skill sets don't suggest it a super encouraging medium, long-term trajectory for that pairing, but yeah,

They should have at least tried it a little bit more willingly than Monte Williams did when Jaden Ivey was on the fringes of the rotation for parts of the early season and also not getting at times to run the second unit when full-on bench mobs were out there on a team that lost 28 games in a row. It feels like a long time ago because we just got through the playoffs and all of this. That was this season, 28 straight losses.

There's something interesting there. They're picking fifth in this draft. Givoni's mock draft has them taking Buzalis, I think, at five. And one of the reasons that he's got Klingin at seven, although Klingin could go one to Atlanta, is that Spurs, Pistons, Hornets at four, five, six kind of have a big man log jam of sorts to some degree, less so in Charlotte than in other places. And so Klingin could fall below those teams if he's not taking one, two, or three.

They just need shooting, shooting, shooting, shooting. There's some interesting things there. It's probably going to be one of those things where the Pistons all of a sudden are like, oh, they don't look so bad anymore. And it's because when you get so many bites at the apple at the top of the draft by almost inertia, you start to get a little bit better and a little bit better and a little bit better. But this whole episode is absolutely embarrassing from the top down. I guess you have to credit them for realizing early that this was –

Not going to work. Stephen A on TV this morning. I was next to him. I was joking like Monty Williams is probably happy that he's out of this and he gets all his money. And we move on for the Pistons. The other big bit of news was Pascal Siakam. Four year max deal worth, I think, 189 to return to the Pistons.

To the Pacers, rather. No-brainer. It's a lot of money, but he's a very, very good player. I think he showed you in the playoffs that his skill set could be even more valuable there. Mid-range shooting, one-on-one. When the shot clock is going down, can I get a mismatch? Can I get a switch against defenses that aren't giving you anything else?

And this was baked into the trade when they traded for him. They were resigning Pascal Siakam from the moment that trade happened. Bruce Brown, three first round picks, some other stuff going back and forth. Two of the first round picks already are going to convey in this draft. That's great for the Pacers. They keep some trade flexibility going forward.

I think the Siakam Halliburton fit is really good and only getting better and better and better. You could see it improve as they played more together in both the regular season and the playoffs. And they didn't get to play much with each other in the regular season because of injuries, particularly to Halliburton. And obviously the trade was at the trade deadline by around the trade deadline, by definition, kind of late, late in the game, the pace they play at defensively, how Pascal fills gaps all over the floor for them.

The pick and roll combination that can go either way. Halliburton, I think, should screen for Siakam even more. They have a shooting five in Miles Turner who can space the floor for Siakam to roll to the rim. Like, it's just... It's a good fit. And Pacers have some other big decisions to make. Andrew Nembhard's eligible for an extension. He balled out in the playoffs. TJ McConnell's eligible for extension. He balled out like he was the sixth man of the last three months of the season, probably. Obi Toppin is eligible for a new deal. I've said they've got to bring him back. He was...

Even if your vision for his role is a little unclear, given you just drafted Jairus Walker and you have Pascal Siakam and they're kind of all play the same or similar positionally. He's if you're trying to win next year, Obi Toppin is a valuable part of your team. And if you resign all of these guys, then the rook, then the Matherins of the world come up for their new deals. You're going to be over the tax and apron ish, at least because you have two guys who are now going to make like a hundred million dollars combined in three years.

The other thing on Siakam is with the cap likely to go up by the maximum allowed 10% every season, that's good for the Pacers because that growth is going to outpace the raises in Pascal's salary. And so it will account for 30% of the cap this coming season. It'll go down to about 28, 27, something like that toward the end. That's a fair deal for Pascal Siakam. And as for the Pacers, you know, the prompt Greeny asked us on TV this morning is,

is this a team that should be considered a threat to Boston and can make the finals next year? And I said, conference finals? I mean, they just made the conference finals, so you have to give them that.

Anything above that feels like a little bit much. And you can really take their playoff run. It's a Rorschach test playoff run. You can be skeptical and say, well, they only beat the Bucs because Giannis missed the whole series and Dame missed games four and five. And they only beat the Knicks because the Knicks were like out of players by the end of it and already started the playoffs without one of their best players in Julius Randle. Or you can take it positively and say,

They got swept by Boston. They might have played Boston better than any of Boston's opponents, even though the other three opponents won a game apiece. They played really well against the Celtics. They had three of those games that were toss-up games toward the end. Their mid-range shooting...

Probably a little bit of an outlier against Boston, but they also have guys who can make those shots, which is important in the playoffs. I would choose to be if the skepticism is like all the way on this end. You just think they're a total fraud and the optimism is all the way on this end. And you think, oh, conference finals, juggernaut is coming. I would be like 60% toward optimism. I think there's something real developing here. The Pacers are self-aware. They know they need another player.

another plus starter as a floor to really, really compete at the highest level. It's great that their bench was so good. It's also not a great sign when you're trying to compete with a team as great as Boston, as great as Denver, as great as Minnesota, that there's not much difference between your bench and

three-fifths of your starting lineup basically maybe two and a half-fifths of your starting lineup depending on how you view Miles Turner they know that they have the ammo to try and get that player this is not the final step for them this is a good solid team that could lose in the first round next year could win a round if things break right like they did this year could make a longer playoff run I would I would pencil them in as like a

first, second round playoff team next year. And that's totally fine. The big question, by the way, is Miles Turner, who's entering the last year of his contract and is not eligible for an extension because his current deal is too short. I double checked that with Bobby Marks. That's going to be the next big pivot point for the Pacers. But the first domino has fallen. The first real domino, though, I think is going to be Paul George and what happens with the Clippers and

And if he really is truly interested in leaving the Clippers, obviously extension talks have not borne any fruit. Free agency is about to start.

and the Sixers are sitting there waiting. They're going to use this cap space one way or another. I'm sure they'd love to get Paul George. Everybody saw the Joel Embiid-Paul George countdown appearance where I saw a headline that Joel Embiid subtly hints at Philadelphia's potential free agent target. Nothing subtle about that. Joel Embiid was not subtle at all, winking and glaring.

smirking at the camera with Paul George sitting literally like shoulder to shoulder with him on the very crowded NBA countdown desk.

If not him, you know, there's been reports elsewhere about some potential, you know, is there wiggle room with OG and Inobi and the Knicks? Is OG happy with the offer that's being floated out there? I would still be pretty optimistic given all the connections that he's going to be a Knick, but the Sixers are looming. There is like, hey, we got to use it. It's like use it or lose it almost for us. We got to use it now. Joel Embiid is right in his prime. He's, you know, his health has been unreliable. We got to try to win.

And if they don't get either of those guys, they could split that room among two, three, four different kinds of players, different level of players that maybe that is the better model for them. A bunch of names have been mentioned, and one that I don't think has been mentioned, I think Contavious Caldwell-Pope is a free agent to watch this summer, potentially as a player option. He's in a good position to secure a nice long-term deal. I think Philly would take a look at him. And...

Then the Lakers have to make a decision in the draft with Bronny James. And of course, Bronny's father, LeBron, has a player option. I saw Bill Simmons, my friend and old boss, said there's been some LeBron to Phoenix buzz. I personally kind of don't believe that. I'm still expecting him to go back to the Lakers. Full stop. But the offseason is underway. And we have a couple of days maybe to breathe. But there's going to be news. There might be news tonight. News is coming. Buckle up, everybody. Thanks for listening.