Ep 995 | The Bible Topic That Makes Men Squirm & What Clint Eastwood Taught Jase About Baptism
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meet and greet or, you know, there's a time when you go and you're, you know, there's an interaction and a lot of what we do are fundraisers for people. So a lot of times people will give more to the organization, have an opportunity to meet you, maybe get a book signed, something like that. But the people you get to meet,

along the way, I'd have to say, I mean, just everybody in general, obviously people are excited. People listen to the podcast. A lot of you guys will meet you at events, but then a lot of times you get the little surprise because you meet somebody that you recognize and you're surprised they're there. Has that ever happened to you where you were someplace and you saw somebody and you were like, what are you doing here? I mean, yeah. Yeah. I mean, nothing comes to mind. I mean, I know that's happened many times. So I was in Virginia recently and,

And it was really cool. I think I talked about on the podcast, I got to go to Monticello, which is Thomas Jefferson's home. And I've always been a big fan of Jefferson. He was so brilliant in so much of his stuff. You went to his house? Went to his house. Well, did you ask him if I could come metal detect?

I didn't because there wasn't anybody that seemed like they would be the kind of person that would let you do that. But it was very structured. But man, let me tell you something, Jay, is if you could, there's no telling what you could find on this place. Yeah. It was literally the top of a mountain. I think we need a follow-up on this.

I think you may be right. They never brought up that I have a treasure hunting show. Never mentioned it. Never brought it up. Never even. So the event was at the house? No, no, no, no. No, that was just me and Lisa going to look. That had nothing to do with the event. Oh, I see. That was a side note. We do the event, raising money for a pregnancy center. I'm doing a Q&A with some folks that had volunteered, I mean, that had donated some money to this event. And I look up and this guy and his wife come in. And I was thinking, man, that guy looks familiar.

And I just kind of noticed him. And we do the Q&A. And so as we're leaving, we're taking some pictures with some folks. And they waited till the last to come up. And I said, I know you from somewhere. And he smiled.

He said, well, you might have caught me on Fox News. And I said, yeah, you're the military guy. And his name is Cameron Hamilton. And he does a lot of military hits on Trace's show, which is the last show of the night, which is usually when I catch my news. It's on like 11 o'clock here, Trace Gallagher.

And he uses him a lot about anything going on around the world. And he's young. I don't know what he is. I would guess maybe he's in his late 30s. And he's a Navy SEAL. And so he's been everywhere, just rock solid, but super young.

and smart and super aware of world surroundings. So I was always impressed with him. I was like, what are you doing here? And he said, well, I live here. He said, and I love your family and just, I saw you were going to be here. And so I wanted to come and support the event. So it was really cool for me because this was a guy that I see and respect and never thought I'd get to meet. And he felt the same way. So he told me, he said, I'm into making coffee is one of the things I'm doing. I said, coffee? He said, when you're a SEAL,

And you're around the world. You're big into coffee. I said, well, it's a lot like duck hunting. He said, a lot like it. And so Jason, I thought you'd like, he sent me some. And this one is called Outlaw Blend. And it's got a sort of a caricature of our old friend Doc Holliday on the front of it. And the name of this under that is I'm Your Huckleberry.

I like where he's going with this. I am too. I told him we were huge. And then this is one that's called We the People, which I thought was good, you know, military guy. And this one is classic and bold. So we haven't had a chance to try it. We're going to. Okay. And we'll give it a shot. But I just wanted to give a little shout out to Cameron. If you ever see him now, he does a lot of hits on Fox. You'll know because we talked about it on here.

But his coffee thing is called Onward Valor. So if you want to check that out, he's a fantastic guy. Loves our country. Obviously done a lot for us as well. And so it was a pleasure to get to know him. You know, you just meet people through this process of what we get to do, and it's just amazing. Yes, I think it's going to be a lot like heaven in the next life. You're looking around. Oh.

Didn't fancy I'd see you here. How'd you get in here? Wow, that's surprising. That's a surprise. Now, have y'all heard the, well, let me back up a little bit. We grew up in thinking we were the only ones going to heaven. I mean, that's what I literally grew up. That's a joke, sort of. Well, we. No, I did. I grew up thinking that if you were not part of our denomination, which was a non-denominational denomination, I thought,

I thought, yep, you're not in. Well, there was even a joke. It was even a joke that went around where they said their group, whoever's telling the joke, got to heaven and they walked past these people and they said, shh, be real quiet because they think they're the only ones here. Yeah. That was a joke I was going to tell. Oh, sorry. Yeah, you just stopped. Sorry, sorry. But I do think that's why we have so many religious groups. I mean, to your point, seriously.

That that's why people start up new. I mean, how many different denominations are in America? It's in the thousands. And is that, it's a lot, but I think, you know, it's, I think it's, we all have our little theological distinctives and things that we kind of hang on. Well, in our particular heritage, we, we split several directions over different issues in the Bible, not even biblical, just issues. And so every other group has done that as well.

So you'll have this group and then there's the reformed of that group and the not reformed and the this and the that. I kind of go to that Luke 17, 20 where he says, you know, the kingdom will not come visibly nor will people say here it is or there it is because it's within you. That's a great point. That's a great point. So I just, I went rogue somewhere in that while you were thinking, I don't know about this. We're the only ones going to heaven. I just, I just went rogue.

I thought, I'm not going to look at signs or buildings. I'm just going to go out and preach Jesus. But did you always think that, or when you were a kid? No, it took me four or five years. Yeah. I mean, I've said this. I thought about saying this a while ago, and I thought maybe I shouldn't say this, but

I'm going to go ahead and say it. I thought in my mind, I think I need to distance myself from this particular group. You know, I remember having that thought because I just thought it wasn't focused on the grace of God enough, which is kind of what you're describing.

I mean, how do you know all the, you know, we're in this little bitty church building here. The world's a big place. Yeah. And so what changed my- But not only that, just why would anybody think, any group of any kind, that you would know anything about who gets into heaven or not? In other words, it's not your call. Well, that's kind of what I gathered. We had a sign on one of the buildings that we attended.

And a sign was a plaque. It was like a bronze. It looked like intentionally weathered, but I mean, I don't know if it was, it may be, it was as old as the sign said it was, but it was a little plaque about if you're, if you're not watching, I'm, I think I got about 12 inches, maybe 14 by 14. I like a license plate, like a license plate. Did it say do not eat in the auditorium? Now we had that rule too. It said established, uh,

this church was established in 80 30. And I thought, man, it's been here a long time, but it was, I don't, I think the plaque was made in about 1981, but the, uh, but it said the church was established in 80 70. And the idea was that we were, uh, the new Testament church. And, um,

Well, Zach, it's funny. Well, technically, I kind of agree with that. No, that's true. That's not a bad thing. But it's funny, Zach. So I haven't mentioned this to you, and you just brought that up when you said the sign. So when I was in your house at the time, it was during the day before the storm hit. You were not there.

and we were about to pick up one of your kids or something. And so I was looking because you guys have done some remodeling. It looks fantastic, by the way. Thank you. Your kitchen, all of it. But I was laughing because when I was going, I went to go out on the front porch because I love your front porch, and it just has this Americana street there, and it's a really neat look. And as I'm going out, I can tell that Jill, I'm assuming, and part of the designing of everything in your house, had somewhere gotten one of those –

I wish I had a picture of it to show you. Anybody that grew up in our heritage would know it. It's a thing that hung in the front of every little building, and it had numbers on it. It would have the attendance and the offering. Do you remember, Jay, is what I'm talking about? You remember that little sign that would always be in the front of the building? Yeah, it's like...

Last week's attendance. Yeah. This week's. 362, you know. And sometimes in some of them it would have the songs that were going to be sung that day. They would change it every week. So Zach has one of those hanging around.

in his living room. Jill's hanging on. So I said, somebody's not letting go of the old way. Say, you want to know what I was thinking when I saw that sign as a kid? What'd you think? I was thinking, why would you post how much money coming in here? I,

I mean, you're basically saying, come rob us. There's $7,000 somewhere in this facility. I always thought, too, because we were in some little ones growing up, that it was very underwhelming, that number. It was not very impressive. I mean, it was to us because we were poor. It was like $23. Yeah, I mean, it was like, do you really need to post that? Because it's not very impressive. Well, the church I'm at now, it's funny, but it started as a little small church. And my dad, this is how it used to be done, though. My dad...

when we first moved here, he finds this little church and he goes in and there's like probably about 10 people left. And they're like, what did you, what do you, sir, what do you, what are you doing here? Well, I just moved here. I retired. What'd you retire from? I'm a retired pastor.

And they said, well, back then we called them preachers, by the way, not pastors, at least in our group. And they said, we need a pastor. $120 a week if you'll come preach here every Sunday. So that was his first Sunday to visit. He got hired for $120 a sermon. And he was so good at his preaching that the church under his leadership went from 10 people

to four people in a two-year period. So we always tell him that. You have like a 60%. You need some help. Oh, man. If you need somebody to basically take it on into the sunset, just bring in Gordo. But what's funny, I mean, I don't – and I probably should caveat this. I'm very grateful, though, for our heritage too. Me too.

I mean, I learned the Bible. I learned a whole lot about, there's a lot that we still do even. Like we, you know, we do have a heavy emphasis on coming around the table, the Lord's table every Sunday. And we're elder led. And we, you know, we, I love the idea of speak where the Bible speaks, you know, like let the Bible be the final authority. So there's a lot of good,

But I think we all, no matter what denomination or group you came up out of, I do think the Lord is just, you know, he's bringing a lot of the Internet now. I mean, I can go kind of pick the best of any denomination. And I think a lot of churches have kind of groups have kind of done that. They've said, you know what, we're going to come off this a little bit. We're going to come off this. And it seems like now the kingdom's a lot more open.

I don't know, like maybe fluid or in a, or more. But I definitely think we're all more open to it because obviously we, we broke out of that mindset. Like Jason was talking about, it was kind of group thing to now being out there and being exposed to some amazing people. And I've learned so much more that it's helped me and, and great preachers and great pastors from around the country that impact my life that I wouldn't have been listening to when I was younger because you know,

What do they got to offer? I mean, they were having the same problem here. We're in Colossians. It's very much so. This is kind of what's happening. He's focusing on Jesus. And I've said thousands of times, I thought the Bible was a rule book because the way where we were meeting, it was like, oh, they talk about Jesus. But then it's like, well, kind of these are they wouldn't call them rules. But this is just like.

This is what we do, and this is what we need to agree on. Or, you know, I just, at some point, I realized this is about a person, which we talk about that a lot, and that all these verses that God does not live in temples built by hands and buildings, it was not a let's go build a building. This was a movement of declaring Jesus in all places and houses and synagogues, but also just people.

Over a water well. I call them shadow things. I get it from this text, but they were focusing on the shadow things. Because there is a rule. There's a rule of life. Just like there's laws of thermodynamics that...

It's not like someone sit up there and said, all right, I'm going to make some rules about how heat works and how matter and energy are transformed. It's not like a it's I mean, there is God that set this in motion, but these are not like arbitrary things. These are descriptions of how the world works. And and there is a description and a rule of life of how life in Christ is. But if what happens is if you take the things like the of themselves for themselves, you

Then you're basically it's like what Paul's language here is that you're focusing on the shadow of the thing. And so a lot of what our movement did was it would in all movements kind of devolve into this over time. But the spirit keeps bringing it back and.

And the kingdom is fluid and moves like the wind. So you can't really isolate itself. There it is. It's contained right there. There it is. It's in that movement, that group, that church, that building. Like you can't do that. I mean, the kingdom cannot be identified in that way.

But I think that our default position is to take it and try to and try to put parameters around it so that we can then contain it and hold it. And when you do that, you're essentially taking and you're looking at the shadow of something instead of the reality of it, which, to your point, is relational, not just relational. It's relational in the context of relationship with a particular person.

And that person is Jesus Christ, who just so happens to be the incarnation and the fullness of the Godhead. He's the fullness of the triune God in bodily form. So that's for our entry point into the Trinity, into partaking in the divine life, as Peter said.

Our way in is through the person of Jesus. So anything that kind of gets outside of that becomes just a thing that we focus on. It's a shadow thing, not a reality. Yeah, by the way, I wanted to also remind you guys that just yesterday, the last episode, Tuesday, we did publish our first episodes on the Not Yet Now podcast. So for all you guys listening, I want to encourage you to go check it out anywhere podcast are heard. You can also go to our YouTube channel at NotYetNowPodcast.

dash or Zach Z A C H. And we upload the episodes there as well. And if you could help us just leave, leave a comment. Um, if you could rate it, uh, share it with your friends, subscribe, wherever you listen to podcasts, that really does help us get the, get our, our, our, um, show up the algorithm. So it would help quite a bit. So thank you guys. Uh, can't wait to hear your feedback on that, by the way.

We talk a lot about saving babies on this show, the pro-life movement. I think it's always an issue that's out there. It seems to get politicized much more during election cycles. But, I mean, we're all pro-life because we think it's important, right, Jay? Well, I mean, we believe we're humans. I mean, if you just ask what is a fetus, someone would say, well, it's a human. And we believe that all humans are.

deserve the right to life. Yeah, and we're basically trying to defend babies that can't defend themselves in bad situations. That's why we partnered with Preborn, the nation's leader in introducing mothers with unplanned pregnancies to their babies. It's really more of not even defense here. This is getting mothers an opportunity to have an imagination for what

It's in their womb. There's a baby. And they can see this. I mean, this is a very, very, very powerful tool.

to help mothers understand the importance of what and who they're carrying inside their body. Yeah, exactly, and help them make a good choice, even for themselves. And that's why I feel like we're pre-born and other groups are helping us put pro-love in the pro-life movement. Once a mother hears the heartbeat and sees the life growing inside of her, she's twice as likely to choose life.

And so we want to join these guys to save unborn babies. And today, Preborn has rescued over 300,000 babies. They also provide love, support, and counseling for up to two years for life. So it's in it for the long haul. One ultrasound is just $28.

140 can help rescue five babies live. So let's join together, help mothers choose life. To donate securely, dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby. That's pound 250, keyword baby. Or you can go to preborn.com slash unashamed. That's preborn.com slash unashamed. This starts off saying in verse six, so then just as you receive Christ as Lord. So this is Colossians 2.6.

Continue to live in him, rooted, built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness, which we talked about that on the last podcast. That's where we left off. So then here's where the problem comes in. So other groups of people were introducing things outside of Jesus. So it says, see to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition,

and the basic elements of this world rather than on Christ, which we talked about that a little bit in one podcast, which is why other gods focused on earth, wind, and fire, I guess, or just encounters that happen on the earth, which made me think, really,

God is the earth, wind, and fire. I mean, he created the earth. Jesus became an earthling, a human. When the Holy Spirit was poured out, well, then it was the descriptive language with it was wind and fire. Yeah. And so... Don't you think that's why...

God did that with the Elijah story in 1 Kings 19 where they just had the big showdown with all the false gods. And then all of a sudden he gets depressed because he still hadn't converted Ahab and Jezebel to the right way of thinking. And so he takes them on that mountain and there's earth, wind, and fire. And he's like, you're looking in the wrong place. Because remember then it said it was a gentle whisper. And the whisper just said, I got work for you to do.

Yeah, even in the burning bush, you go back to that. Yeah, it's another good example. It's like there's a fire that won't burn up. Ooh, that's interesting. I mean, he is fire. Right. He created it. But in the fire, the voice said, I am who I am. We got a fire talking, you know, and then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, they go in there and they're not burning up. Then they look and there's another in the fire. Who's that walking around? Right.

And so you see that they're having some conflict. So then to get into this, which is a difficult thing to wrap your head around because of the illustrations that are fixed to happen, and we'll talk about it, and I'm pretty sure that we're not all going to agree on all the details of this, but I may be surprised.

So in verse 9, he says, for in Christ, which he's focused on Christ since chapter 1, verse 1 here, all the fullness of the deity lives in bodily form. You've been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. He goes back to that. He is king. Now it gets interesting. He says, in him...

which was a theme of Ephesians, by the way, too, and a phrase in all of the New Testament letters, in Christ, you were also circumcised. But now he had just made a reference of making known among the Gentiles, which was considered the uncircumcised, that the mystery of Christ, I mean, the mystery which was hidden was Christ in you, the hope of glory. So now it's kind of like he's targeting Christ

the Jewish origin here because of Genesis 17. I think at some point in this Bible study, we're going to need to read Genesis 17. And just the caveat on top of this, because you mentioned Ephesians briefly, but Ephesians 2 says,

has this language where he says you who were called the uncircumcised are now basically called the circumcised like you who were aliens and far off of now so this idea of circumcision and i don't know where you're going with this yet so we might not agree completely but

So far, like, yeah, I think this is, I think you're right of what this conversation that Paul's having here. Well, let's just start off. Let's assume nobody knows anything. So when you, I mean, all of a sudden we were focusing on Jesus. He is the fullness of the deity, which is the Godhead in bodily form. God became human. Which, by the way, that's a key phrase there, Jay, is bodily form. I think that's what's introducing this idea.

He became a human, and guess what? He's still a human. Yes. At the right hand of God. Remember he said, look at my hands and my feet? A human has entered the presence of God, which we've said many times, showed us that's the path. If you're a human and you're going to die, which we all do, there is another human that has showed us there's a way to continue on

living here eternally. Because, again, and I'm just helping frame it for you, he's already described the creator, the sustainer, the eternal, all the things we can barely wrap our brains around. And then he says all that became one of us. Yeah. So it really becomes the key here to what he's about to say. So let me just say this. Some of what I'm fixed to say could be graphic and offensive to people.

who don't understand what circumcision is. But in Genesis 17, so we have the Jewish nation. God has chosen this nation as his chosen people. Right. Should I add anything to that before I read Genesis 17? And he chose Abraham to be the one chosen.

How would you describe that quickly? Well, Abraham was the one he picked to show to be the forerunner of his people. And it was a faith thing because he called him and he said, look, I'm going to tell you where you need to go. And that's where the physical Israel is going to be. So that was the whole idea behind Abraham. So we're just 14 chapters after the garden here. Fall of man, and then God comes up with a plan. And the plan is to choose a nation.

to be his and he would have fellowship with this nation and they would be his people just to kind of show you that god wants to dwell with people because after everything we read in those first 11 chapters this is the first time we see sort of a reconnection with humanity is this guy so stay with us but we've we're in colossians 2 and all of a sudden it says in christ you were also circumcised that that that's a strange statement for people in america 2 000 years later

Because if you just define circumcision, when a baby is born, they're circumcised. You go to the nether region and there's some skin that is removed. It is cut off. Now they do it now for cleanliness. It's not health reasons. It's not an identity thing to be an American.

But in the Jewish nation, this is where this came from, which I think is kind of fascinating. So, Zach, Jason and I are hoping that you're holding on to our goldbacks up there. Yeah, I've got them in an undisclosed, secure location, yet to be disclosed to anyone except for myself. And in the event that something happens to me, you guys will find it.

I don't know the like sound of that, Jace, especially up there with what he's dealing with up there right now. We may never see our goldbacks. What we're talking about is the goldback, which comes from Alpine Gold Exchange, which is the world's first physical interchangeable gold money that is designed to accommodate even small transactions. Goldbacks do not need someone else's approval to spend.

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So here's Genesis 17. This will be interesting. So when Abram was, now think about this. He's 99 years old. The Lord appeared to him and said, I am God Almighty. Walk before me and be blameless. I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers. Now you would actually have to go back to Genesis 15, verse

to get the breakdown of that covenant, but it basically said through your offspring, your generations will be as numerous as sand on the seashore and stars in the sky, right? Anything you want to add to that? Only that at this point they had no children. I would like to add Genesis 12 in here, the initial calling of Abraham, and I think it's important to note that God's intention from the beginning was,

With Abraham in Genesis 12, it reads, I will bless those who bless you and whoever curses you, I will curse. And here's the thing. And all peoples on earth will be blessed through you. So,

Good addition. Good addition. You have to have this as the anchor or you don't understand what's happening here. Good, good. All people, Jew and Gentile. That's why I asked. Very good. Because I didn't want to read three chapters here. And think about it from Abraham's perspective, when God's talking about all these people and this offspring and heirs, he's thinking...

initially in a physical sense that it's going to be children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren he's thinking that way all right yeah it's bigger than even abraham knows at this point just to be fair now look how is he gonna pull this off they're looking down at their bodies he's 99 sarah's 90 yeah 989 i get when he's 100 and this happens she's 90 10 years different

So the obvious thing here is the equipment is no longer working. I mean, it's the best I can do. Even though they live longer. Yeah, that's true. I mean, look, think when Viagra was introduced, we're having this moment here because at some point of him being a hundred years old, I don't know if he woke up one morning and looked under the covers and thought, oh boy, I'm back.

But that happened. And look, the reason Jace is right about this is because of their response. They laughed. When they were told this, they laughed out loud. They laughed. Well, not just him, her. That's what I'm saying. She's laughing like, oh, okay, good luck with that. Look, and that's why the circumcision thing is coming into play here. Correct. And so just think, this is –

Like one of my buddies who's older said one time about his sex life. He said, that ship has sailed. Well, so just we have the context there. So then in verse 3 of 17, Abram fell face down and God said to him, as for me, this is my covenant with you. You will be the father of many nations. He has no kids. So just he's 99. Yeah.

No longer will you be called Abram. Your name will be Abraham. For I have made you a father of many nations. I will make you very fruitful. I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between. So there's a promise here that he's making.

As an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. The whole land of Canaan where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you and I will be their God. Then God said to Abraham, as for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants together.

and for the generations to come. This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep. Now, here we go. Every male among you shall be circumcised. You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. For the generations to come, every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised,

So we're talking about the removal of the skin of the anatomy. This is a physical act. I'm reading this for my presentation because I want us to be clear here. There's a spiritual act with a spiritual consequence. And you say, well, where are you getting that from? So before I continued reading Genesis 17,

I want to read two passages in Deuteronomy. I know this is getting deep, but we're just, this is where we've come. We have to get into this. So Deuteronomy 10 and verse 6 kind of clarifies why he's saying this in Genesis. No, it's actually Deuteronomy 10, 16. So let me read this. Get my glasses. Circumcise your hearts, therefore, and do not...

be stiff-necked any longer. For the Lord your God is God of gods, the Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. All right, so I wanted to read that, and then chapter 30 in verse 6, there's a little more explanation on this about this physical act being a spiritual consequence.

In verse 6 of chapter 30, it says, The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants so that you may love him with all your heart, with all your soul, and live. So in Romans chapter 2, before I read Genesis 17, it kind of gets into this idea on why they were circumcised. We know why from God's perspective because it was a sign of the covenant, the promise. So at the end of Romans 2,

In verse 28, it says something interesting. You've probably never heard this preached on in church. A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly, and circumcision is circumcision of the heart by the spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men but from God."

So all I'm doing is introducing this idea that for a Jew, when he was circumcised, look, he became part of something. He became part of a promise by God, and he was his identity.

was the Jewish nation. He became part of it. Which, by the way, to prove your point, Abraham predated the Jewish nation. He was hundreds of years before we get to Sinai and the establishment of the law and all that. So that proves the point as well. As Zach said, it was for everybody, even with Abraham, even though they hadn't realized yet. It was physical and it was spiritual. So,

And the reason I'm bringing this up and we're going into these details is because the Jewish men did the cutting. There was actually a physical process, and I'm going to read it to you, verse 11, back to 1711 of Genesis. You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you for the generations to come. Every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or brought...

uh with bought with money from a foreigner those who are not your offspring whether born in your household goes on to say my covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant any uncircumcised male who has not been circumcised in the flesh will be cut off from his people he has broken the covenant god said to abraham as for sarah your wife you are no longer to call her sarah she will be named sarah

The H and the I are different now. I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations. Kings of peoples will come from her. Abraham fell face down. He laughed and said to himself, will a son be born to a man 100 years old? I mean, he literally was cackling. It would make a great movie.

Will Sarah bear a child at the age of 90? And Abraham said to God, If only Ishmael might live under your blessing.

I feel like are really kind of coming into their own right now and really getting some great themes and some great messages out there. Yeah, somewhere in there, they kind of broke the dam on how to make great movies from a cinematography standpoint and also just taking true stories that show the power of God. And so this latest one,

by Angel Studios who have been on a roll. I mean, they take somebody like Bonhoeffer and what you see is what you see with all Christians. You have this love of God and love for people.

And when you put that fact in his circumstances, the making's of a great movie. Yeah, Bonhoeffer is an amazing man, amazing story. And in this movie, the world teeters on the brink of annihilation. And Dietrich Bonhoeffer is swept into the epicenter of a deadly plot to assassinate Hitler. In Angel Studios' upcoming film, as Jason mentioned, Bonhoeffer, pastor, spy, assassin.

This movie is going to hit theaters November 22nd. You can get Showtimes right now at angel.com slash unashamed. With his faith and fate at stake, Bonhoeffer must choose between upholding his moral convictions or risking it all to save millions of Jews from genocide.

Will his shift from preaching peace to plotting murder alter the course of history, or will it cost him everything? We want you to check it out. You can find out this Thanksgiving all those answers by looking for Showtime's Near You to get your tickets today at angel.com slash unashamed. This is a movie you don't want to miss. Go to angel.com slash unashamed. That's angel.com slash unashamed.

Ishmael was a son that 10 years earlier when God told him about this plan, then obviously nothing was happening. And so Sarah said, well, maybe God meant for you to sleep with my son.

or marry my hand servant, you know, and Hagar and have a child by her. And so they did it. They managed that. And so Ishmael is now a son of Abraham, but he's not the son. And so just to set that, we didn't set that. Which would be Isaac. So I'm going to skip down to verse 24, and then we're going to go back to Colossians.

Abraham was 99 years old when he was circumcised and his son Ishmael was 13. Abraham and his son Ishmael were both circumcised on that same day and every male in Abraham's household, including those born in the household or bought from a foreigner, was circumcised with him.

And so I'm not sure when Isaac comes onto the scene. Chapter 21. Yeah, she's going to get pregnant later. And then we go through the scene of then God asking Abraham to offer his son Isaac, which was going to be a shadow to Jesus, dying and being buried and being raised. You can read Hebrews 11 where it talks about Abraham and see what all this is for. So we did all that.

Because in Colossians, when he makes that statement that you were circumcised in Christ, he's now relating what happened with the promise with Abraham is now a reality in Christ. But instead of the Jewish men cutting off the skin of the males eight days old,

I mean, Abraham got the worst end of that deal because he had to get circumcised at 99. I'm sure it took him a couple days to get over that.

I think I navigated that as good as I could. Well, there was a scene, Jace, later when they had gotten away from God and they weren't practicing circumcision and then they went back to God and God had the whole nation circumcised. Exactly. So, you know, it happened. So look, so now let's go back and read this because I think we can understand it. And that way we won't be so confused and we won't avoid this passage because it's too confusing.

So back to Colossians 2, 9. For in Christ all the fullness of the deity lives in bodily form, and you've been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. In him you are also circumcised. Now watch this statement. In the putting off of the old sinful flesh, or some versions say sinful nature. It's a hard phrase to define, but it's think whatever that is.

presence in your human body that is giving you the choice to sin and be a sinner and the desires to do wrong, that part of your human old self, think Adam rather than Jesus that has been this trained since the beginning. Which, by the way, this is why I believe he chose that symbol, God I'm talking about,

in a male was because it was all about the physical. It was all about this is how you propagate, this is where your power comes from, this is your physical, this is also where you can have fleshly desires lived out with other people. - Exactly. - So I think that's why he chose this particular thing. That's just my-- - All right, so we'll get there. So verse 11 says, "In him you were also circumcised "in the putting off of the old sinful flesh,

Not with the circumcision done by the hands of men, but with a circumcision done by Christ. So here he's making an illustration. You say, well, what's he illustrating? Because in this case, Christ is the one doing the cutting. So this is not Jewish people back under this promise that God made with Abraham. This is a new sort of promise. Right.

So watch what he says. Verse 12, having been buried with him in baptism. Well, now all of a sudden, this really gets complicated because he's likening this process, in my opinion, to the physical act of baptism. And raised with him. Now watch how this phrase goes. Through your faith in the working of God who raised him from the dead.

So we're going to stop there. And I wrote this down so I could read what I think is the parallel, and then if Zach or you disagree with me. So here's what I think he's saying.

So you had circumcision, which was a physical act showing your identity that I'm going back to Genesis, that you're part of the Jewish nation and that this is a sign of God's promise that through Abraham's offspring, which would eventually come Jesus, all nations and all people would be blessed. So then you have what Jesus promised.

is offering here in baptism, which I think is a physical act that changes the heart, just like it did in the Jewish nation, based on God's promise. And I think in this case, the promise is the Holy Spirit.

Now, the reason I think that, I'm going to just give you one verse, but if you read John 14, remember with his disciples, Jesus promised that he would not leave his disciples as orphans and he would give them the Holy Spirit, the counselor. But in Acts chapter 2, when the first sermon is preached by Peter, the Holy Spirit has been poured out. Peter preaches the gospel, remember? And he gets to verse 36 and they say, what do we do? And Peter said,

This Christ is Lord and Christ. They said, what do we do? He said, repent and be baptized, every one of you. Now, we're bringing up baptism here, just like he's doing in Colossians, Paul is. Well, then they're baptized, and then you remember the next verse? It says, the promise is for you and your children and for all. Now, why is he bringing that up in that moment in Acts 2, 38 and 39?

Because I think it makes more sense when you throw in Jesus' baptism. So you think, well, why was Jesus baptized? Well, we just read that he had given the fullness of Christ dwells in bodily form. Then it says, and you've been given fullness. Well, what happened at Jesus' baptism?

You see the fullness of the deity. And he even said it was to fulfill all righteousness. Yeah, you have the Father, look, saying what? He identifies him. He said, this is my son. I have to say, Jase, I was really proud of our network, Blaze TV, who provides us this platform to be able to do our podcast.

and how they covered the hurricane and how they did it early. I mean, because there just wasn't a lot of people in there early, and they were. Glenn Beck was in there, helicopters and goods, and then I appeared on their show, kind of their new show they do, just telling them, because I was an eyewitness. I had been there. So they did a great job, and I think it shows you kind of in this world of media that we're in now, there's a lot of narratives and agendas that go on in the national media, and

And I really am proud of Blaze TV, and I'm proud to be on their platform. They're independent, but they love God. They love America. And they allow us to be able to talk about the Bible, which is what this podcast is all about. So we want you to be able to see what Blaze is all about.

And they've got the biggest discount ever, $40 off the annual subscription. A lot of you I know have already subscribed to Blaze and enjoy all their other content. So that's what we want you to do. If you love Unashamed and you support what Blaze Media stands for, visit us at Blaze.com.

Visit blazetv.com slash Robertson. Use the code Robertson40 at checkout to join. That's blazetv.com slash Robertson. Use the code Robertson40. You get $40 off. There's no better time to sign up than now. Well, I'm just saying based on my pitch, what I'm saying is he's likening circumcision from an identity standpoint

Because this started off with, in Christ, you've been given fullness in Christ. So to me, when you hear Jesus and you surrender to him, he promises you his Holy Spirit, but he's identifying you now in Christ. So there is a physical act in that you are actually being dunked underwater, but he's being real clear. Christ is doing the cutting and God is doing the working.

And so what is happening? All you're doing is something is dying just like the skin would be dead once it's removed from the flesh. Physical sound of a spiritual heart. I would say that probably have a little different understanding of baptism that the water baptism or the physical baptism that happens in water is a symbol. It's a picture. It's a physical picture of

of what is happening in the spiritual baptism, which is what I think the main point is. It's kind of like the same thing with the Lord's Table, communion, the Eucharist, whatever you call it.

you know, we're not Catholic or Lutheran. So we don't believe in what's called transubstantiation that the, I don't believe that the actual elements become the actual physical blood of Christ and the physical body of Christ. So I believe they're elements. So they're, they're symbols of the real thing. And so I think baptism is, is the same way. It's a symbol. Water baptism is a symbol of the real thing. And one of the reasons why I believe that is because in Mark three, um,

when John the Baptist says, I baptize with water. So he's given a type of baptism, those who repent of their sins and turn to God. But someone is coming after soon who is greater than I am, so much greater that I'm not worthy even to be a slave or carry his sandals. He says,

will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. So you kind of see a distinction there in that text. There's water baptism, and then this one coming is going to baptize with the Holy Spirit. Now, there is a water baptism associated with the baptism of the Spirit. It's the outward baptism that we participate in, but the point is that it's the old man baptism.

The old self dying, like the water, Peter says that there's nothing magic in the water. It's not the removal of dirt from the flesh.

but it's the pledge of a good conscience towards God that saves you by the resurrection. Well, he doesn't say there's nothing magical about the water. He just says it's the removal of the body. Well, he says it's not the removal of dirt from the flesh. Yeah, I was just correcting your statement. Peter said there's nothing magical about the water. That part's not in there, but I agree with you. There is nothing magical about the water, but...

I mean, I think we're agreeing mostly. The semantics are a little bit different. Let me give you my perspective. I think you are in agreement because I think you laid it out in this context, Jase, properly because there is a comparison to circumcision and baptism and a physical concept with a spiritual depth. Because I love the reading you did in Deuteronomy to show that even way back then,

God was telling them that this was more about the heart than the flesh. It was a heart. It was a heart issue. That's why I read the Romans too, because I think, because Zach's been, you know, which I, for a time in my life, did exactly what Zach. You know, you immediately want to go to, well, this is what we're not saying. But there's still, there's,

You have to address this somehow or another. We get it that God saves us from the inside out, and Jesus is what saves us 100%. There's no argument about that. I feel more comfortable about saying this is done through a physical act because you're actually, what you're doing is saying, I can do nothing. You're surrendering. Even in the physical act, someone is literally surrendering

Yeah, you just don't want to. I think the problem is that you just don't want to, when you overemphasize that, then you're missing the point of it. But, Zach, it's not an overemphasis. It's in the text for a reason. No, I'm saying if you overemphasize a water baptism. I know what you're saying. I knew you would say that, but I don't think I'm overemphasizing it. And so I thought of all things, I would use this clever illustration.

to make my point. Wait a minute, do you have time? Yeah, I got three minutes. So in the movie, The Good, Bad, and the Ugly, there's a scene. They had a scam going. The Ugly, who was Tuco, I'm not calling him ugly. This is literally the movie. The Bad was Lee Van Cleef. This was made in 1966. It's awesome. Go watch it. There is a few cuss words in it. Clint Eastwood was the good, but they had a scam going. And the scam was Tuco was such a criminal and a villain that

that he had a bounty on his head. And so. And every time he got away, the bounty went higher. So they just, so he would offer himself to be hung. So the guy who turned him in, so Clint Eastwood took over, turned him in. He's cussing him the whole time, you know, and he gets there. He's got, he puts the rope around his neck.

And the bad guy, Lee Van Cleef, said when somebody's worth that much money, they always have a guardian angel, which was Clint Eastwood, the good. So as soon as they were fixed to send the horse on the way, Clint Eastwood shoots that rope because he's already got the reward money. You're like, what does this have to do with baptism? Because Tuco, when he got back and he got his half of the money, he said, five for you, five for me, five for you, five for me. And he said, look, next time I want more.

Because I got all the risk. He said, my neck has that rope. He's like, I'm taking the risk. But what he failed to understand is, Glenn Eastwood said, well, if my percentage goes down, that might affect my aim. And my point is, look, my point is,

And he had to put himself, for that scam to work, he had to be turned in. Now, sure, it was all about Eastwood. He had all the power. The power was in the gun and his aim. And so I think we try to distance ourselves from the physical act of baptism and its importance when you read the book of Acts,

Think Acts 8 and the Ethiopian eunuch. It wasn't some, you know, let's go into town and get all the people and say, you know, this is your public display of being part of the church. I mean, they were in a desert. And you read Acts chapter 12, which, by the way, had the biggest impact on the offensive tackle. Because he's like, what about baptism? He asked me about it.

I read Colossians 2. I went through it. But I said, look, this is about Jesus. But when I read that Acts 8, and he said he was reading Isaiah, he's reading the good news about Jesus, and it says, then they came to some water. It's two men. And he said, well, why shouldn't they be baptized? And Philip said, stop the chariot.

And they went down there, and he baptized him, and he went on his way rejoicing, and Philip left. And old big boy, the tackle said, I need to stop the chariot moment. There was no denying who was doing the cutting.

Who did the saving? But what I'm not saying is, I'm not saying that I'm not diminishing water baptism. I'm not even trying to like not emphasize it. I'm just saying, I don't think that's what the text is talking about. I think the text is not talking about water baptism because if you read it in verse 11, when he says in him, also you were circumcised with the circumcision made without hands by putting off the body of flesh.

by the circumcision of Christ. And then he brings in the baptism to describe what he just meant. But we don't actually kill, like physically kill our physical flesh.

Even the Greek word there, flesh. Zach, it's just like circumcision. They were physically being circumcised, but he was saying it's more a circumcision of the heart. It's just a symbolic sign. Exactly. So to the point I think he's making is you guys were focused, they were focused on the physical circumcision.

And they missed what I was accomplishing here. So we can't really turn back to another form of physical circumcision and just call it physical baptism. Physical baptism is representative of the spiritual reality that Christ is bringing now. And so even the Greek word that is used for the word flesh, it doesn't necessarily mean physical. It just means the sinful desires.

It's the putting away of that guy, that old Zach. Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. We agree with the conclusion, but not how we got there, which is fine. We need way more time. Well, you know what? Luckily for us, we got another podcast coming, so we'll pick it up right here next time on Unashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by rating us on iTunes.

And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube and be sure to click that little bell to get notified about new episodes. And for even more content that you won't get anywhere else, subscribe to BlazeTV at blazetv.com slash unashamed.