Ep 980 | Dallas Jenkins Fends Off the Devil While Making His New Movie
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I am unashamed. What about you? I'm a little bit intimidated, Jace. Are you? We walked into this room. This is a much more feminine touch than we're used to. I mean, this is beautiful. I think that's you, your inner self saying, we could do better at our studio. I think we could do better. I couldn't believe your studio. I couldn't believe that was a studio.

I'm like, this is the garage. This is fully the garage. When do we go in? Because you guys are walking in. Yeah. So what, is this an upgrade? Yeah. Oh, for sure. No, I've been, because I've been to the studio and it's like, I know you guys have resources. Just like, I know Phil wants to keep the same house he's lived in for 60 years, but the studio, it's a podcast. It is. It's a popular podcast. You know, you can have like, you know, what do you call it? Insulation in the building, all that kind of stuff. So we're at Annie Downs' That Sounds Fun podcast.

Thank you, Annie. So thanks for letting us host this. And if you're listening and you're like, who are these other people in the room? If you're watching, you know. But if you're not watching, you're listening, we have Dallas and Amanda Jenkins in. Thank you guys for coming on from The Chosen, which that's also intimidating because you've already started directing in here before we even started, which is great. Yeah, before we started rolling, I'm like, all right, you want to scoot in. The lighting, can you adjust the camera a little bit? He's bossing.

It's great. That's just awesome. Yeah, that's what you can start to think of when we're parenting at home. I'm just directing. He's just directing. Yeah, I'm doing what God made me to do. And we're in Nashville.

Yes. It's crazy. So this is unashamed on the road. Unashamed on the road. Jason and Zach are here. Obviously, Phil did not make the trip. I'm not Phil, by the way. I'm Phil. This is Missy. Or Al. Al's gone as well. But we're glad to be here. So, Jason, tell them, tell the audience, what are we doing in Nashville with the Jenkins family? Yeah, I think sometimes in life there's like, how did this happen? And the details are kind of cool.

And it worked out perfect because my dad, Phil, had a procedure yesterday down on his back. So that's why our listeners and viewers haven't seen him for a while. But all stories have said that that went well. So we'll see. We're in Nashville, so I haven't been able to visit. But I think he's doing good. But what happened was I believe, Missy, you somehow got a hold of the movie that is coming out.

I'm gonna let you say the name so I don't screw it up. Oh well Kingdom Story Company who is the marketing company for this movie correct? Yeah the one of production companies. Okay so they reached out to me to ask me if they could send me a link to watch it and then help partner in marketing it. And when of course I mean it's Dallas's stuff. So I'm like yes absolutely. Because we've known each other for now a couple years. That's true but I want to just say in full transparency because we're friends

And when Missy said that in her discussion, she said, oh, and Jace is in too. And I said, hang on. I'm going to need to watch this movie. I rolled my eyes like, it's Dallas. And I said, true, but it's hard to hit a home run every time. I was like, I need to watch this.

is actually yes i agree with you i would be more like you i'm super like i love that last thing prove yourself again like i'm a little that's what i did and look i'm gonna have to admit well we started watching the movie and for my personality and what i do i'm an outdoors person uh and i was thinking well this is a kind of a kids movie in the first 10 minutes i was really like

I'm not sure where this is going because I obviously hadn't read the book. I hadn't heard of the book. And so I was like, Dallas made a kids movie. This is kind of weird. Yeah. It's called The Best Christmas Pageant Ever. I don't know if we've mentioned that. Thank you for saying that. So it's a book that's been out for about 50 years. But yeah, the movie's called The Best Christmas Pageant Ever. And so, yeah, go ahead. So if you've been living in under a bridge or in the wilderness and you hadn't heard of that. Right.

So I was kind of questioning it at first, but as I journeyed through the movie and as it was ending, which I was kind of wiping a few tears from my eyes. Okay, hold on. Before we get to the ending, can I tell you how it started with us? Okay, so I know I'm leaning into this microphone. Is that what we're doing? Yeah, just lean in. Okay, we're good. By the way, we have four mics, five people. We're trying to make this work. Jason and I are sharing, so we'll see how that goes. So we're about 10 minutes here watching on our laptop.

is what we're doing. And so I'm watching it and I'm hearing how it's going. It's done a little differently, you know, to me. Yeah, the opening comes in with like a kind of a quick montage. And it's narration. It's narration. So it's from a child's perspective, but you hear an adult voice. And so I'm trying to figure out where is this going? I don't quite understand what's happening. And about 10 minutes into it, I reached over and I pushed pause and I said, I got it. A Christmas story.

Yeah. And Jace, he said, what? I don't know what you're talking about. I said, a Christmas story. You know, Ralphie, pig bunny, fuzzy ears. Yeah, the movie. And he said, I don't know what you're talking about. And I said, leg lamp. You know, the leg with the lamp and the tongue stuck to the tree. And he said,

I literally have no idea what you're talking about. I've never seen the Christmas story. That needs to be the next thing you do. You need to get out of the wilderness. There's a lot of good stuff going on inside. But once I got that, Dallas, I was all in. I knew exactly what it was. I loved it from start to finish. And then now you can talk about how you felt at the end. Well, I just loved it. I thought it was a clever way to introduce Jesus. And it's a little deeper story.

movie after you watch it. Yeah. As far as how you think about, you know, what just happened. And so I think I immediately picked up my phone and I sent you a text. Yeah, no, I got it. I just saw your movie and you were very positive about it. But you got you got a little teary. I did. Yeah. That's not normal for me, although it's happening a lot more often these days. So we just did our our Miamou fundraiser. So it's hard not to have a few tearful moments in that.

But I thought it was fantastic. And so I was telling you, whatever we need to do, which is why we're here today, because is it the, what are we calling this tonight? The grand premiere? No, this is a Nashville screening special, kind of a lot of local musicians, kind of a VIP screening that we're doing. And so we invited you guys. It's cool that Kingdom reached out to you. I didn't even know that.

Because like, I would have said to you guys, hey, I'd love for you to watch the movie and maybe let's talk about it. But I didn't want to necessarily just ask for a favor. But then you called and you go, hey, Kingdom sent me the movie. I was like, Kingdom, I could have asked them myself. We're friends. But so we're, yeah. So you guys came into Nashville. I said, look, we're going to be here. What if we recorded the podcast while we're together? Yeah.

And so it worked out nicely. But the thing that I, I, the reason I knew that you would like it, even though on the surface, it's a Christmas family movie that is funny and whatnot, but it, it might not be the kind of thing you normally would, would be drawn to. But it is what this is about is kids. You know, the basic story is the Herdman's are the worst kids in the world. Everyone in town hates them because they're bullies and they're, and they're mean and they're, uh,

They smoke cigars, you know, which scandalizes everybody. And so it's told, like you mentioned, from a kid's perspective, but it's an adult telling the story. It's similar to a Christmas story where the adult is telling the story, but remembering her life as a kid. And so you're seeing the Herdman's through these childlike eyes and everything's exaggerated.

But as a parent, you start to see below the surface that, oh, these are kids with absentee parents. These are kids who haven't heard the Christmas story before. These six kids go to church because they hear their snacks. They end up taking over the church's big town Christmas pageant and take over all the roles. They're playing Mary and Joseph. And everyone thinks it's going to be a disaster. And at first it is. But because these kids haven't heard the story before, they're asking all these questions. And the people who've heard it a hundred times who are taking it for granted are

are actually learning a little bit more about the story because of this outsider perspective. And through their eyes, through the eyes of kiddos that are the least of these. That's what we love about it. It's actually who Jesus came for. And I know you guys have such a heart for kids and for kids who are maybe in poverty or kids who aren't. I mean, the kids like how you grew up in some ways, you know. Well, I was fixing to say, Dallas, we were those kids.

uh there's only been a few movies that kind of capture that i mean one of them there was a i think kevin costner did a movie called the war and my wife and i you know went and saw it and she was just like oh yeah it was okay and i was like over here

leading therapy yeah needing therapy and she's like what's wrong i was like that was my childhood and she was like what right i was like that was pretty much it like where where are the parents where where where are they at that's why you weren't watching a christmas movie you guys were watching friday the 13th and well i've seen it no it was halloween i'd go to visit that's the kind of movie i've said this every year for christmas here's what my parents did now this is post jesus

But, you know, it was bumpy the first few years. I remember, I think I was 9 or 10. We could look up when this movie came out. But we went to the Dollar Theater as a family for Christmas, and we watched Charles Bronson in Death Wish. My goodness. Yeah.

My parents wouldn't even let me read about those movies. That's your next film right there. That was seven. And the reason I remember it so vividly, because every time there was nudity or something, my mom would just slap me to cover up my eyes.

And like all this profanity, she's like, don't you ever say that. Threatening you, hitting you. She's narrating the movie of what knocked her down. Yeah, but they've been sanctified. The family's grown quite a bit since the early days. Well, it is. But it's funny, but that's just the truth. There's like family night Christmas movie. But my dad, he didn't want to watch a regular Christmas movie.

movie right so that's why you missed out on some of these classics like a christmas story how did you get so had you read the book like how did the whole thing how did you get because you've been doing the chosen which has been wildly successful yeah i mean i just told you guys out in the hallway i mean you guys broke something when you started that that's good it needed to be broke but how do you go from that to how did you find out about this this came first so i'll just tell the story because it's very much a god story but 20 years ago

Amanda brought the book home from Pottery Barn. It was just on the... Pottery Barn Kids, where I would go and just play with my kids and not ever buy anything because that's who we were at that time. But there was like a $3 book at the counter. I was like, something I can afford. And I remembered reading it growing up. Yeah, as a kid. So I read it in public school. And then I'd seen there was a TV movie back in the early 80s with Loretta Swit from MASH. Yeah. Was like played the mom who helps run the pageant.

And so I remembered it as a kid, but I didn't remember a whole lot about it. So we bring the book home. We're going to read it to our kids. So I start reading and it has a similar start to the movie. You know, it's right away. The first sentence of the book is the Herdman's were absolutely the worst kids in the history of the world. They lied. They stole, they smoke cigars, even the girls. So I'm starting to chuckle and I'm laughing in the first couple of chapters. Well, then fairly early on, I get emotional just from these little hints that she would drop and

Like one of the lines in the movie that I thought also, and from the book that I thought you'd appreciate is at one point, the Herdman's show up to church for the first time and they sit in Sunday school and they're asking all these questions and they're confused. And at one point they hear about the pageant. She's like, what's a pageant? She's like, it's a play. He goes, what's it about? And Beth says, it's about Jesus.

And Imogene goes, everything here is. And I thought, how great for a church to be known for everything here being about Jesus. So she's saying it from an annoyed perspective. And I'm getting emotional. And so then we get to the end of the book, the last chapter. I can't read it. I am crying so hard.

Tears are streaming on my face. The kids, our little kids were so confused. Like what's going on? So Amanda goes, give me the book. I'll read it. Cause you can't do it. She hands, she takes it. She starts weeping. I take it back from her. So we're trading. Are the Christmas. Sentence by sentence. Cause the, you know, I don't want, I won't give spoilers away, but the ending just really ties so much together. And you see the church learns from the herdman's because of their outsider perspective. Yeah.

And that's something that I know you've experienced personally is that a lot of times growing up in poverty or growing up as an outcast brings you closer to the heart of the gospel, the heart of the Christmas story than even those of us in our more suburban American visual of it and how much we've taken the story for granted. So the church learns from them, but of course they give the church something that these kids need, which is Jesus and of course this community.

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The guide is free to you at netsuite.com slash phil. Check them out, netsuite.com slash phil. Well, and just on that note, the church had been putting on the pageant every year for decades, and it was pristine, and everything was cleaned up, and Mary was in like all white, and it was like the halo around baby Jesus. And what the Herdmans do is they come in and they actually show what a real staple would be like and what...

what they perceived a good gift for Jesus to actually be. And you're like, it's really- - They're like, "Gold, frankincense and myrrh, what kind of kid wants that?" - Yeah, what the? - "Why don't we give them a better gift?" So it's all those types of questions that were really moving to me of, what would it be like for these kids to have not heard the story before?

And in a minute, because there's a significant connection to The Chosen, my desire to tell stories of Jesus, but from a more authentic perspective, the kind of stained glass window painting statue perspective we've had. So anyway, so we're weeping at the end of the book. It's so moving. And I'm thinking...

This story is so unique in that it's genuinely funny, genuinely legitimately well told, and yet a very much a Jesus story. So well told that they're reading this book in public schools. And yet this is a Jesus story. Which is incredible because it's... Yeah, it is on the... I mean, you've seen it now. I mean, we don't shy away from what the gospel is and what the Christmas story is, but it just doesn't feel like a churchy...

you know, movie that you have to, that you're doing as homework. So anyway, I closed the book and I said, I have to make this movie. I am the only one who can do this because I love kids. I love troubled kids. The humor of it, the pathos of it is my style. The Christmas of it all. I mean, I'm a huge, I love Christmas. My favorite movie of all time is It's a Wonderful Life. So that's a movie with Jimmy Stewart. Came out. Come inside. I'll put that on the list. Surely you've heard of It's a Wonderful Life. I've heard of it.

Oh my goodness. You're just killing me. He said outlaw Josie Wells and he's like, outlaw Josie Wells. That's his language. That's his word. The Robertsons are known as like true Americana and yet you haven't seen It's a Wonderful Life. I think it's been... Because they're experiencing Americana. They're outside experiencing it. We're just observing it. We're watching them. I'm saying this, but when we were kids and we, you know, my dad came to Christ, everything became outdoors and we just...

We hunted, we fished, like TV was boring. I mean, there's nothing here that's appealing to me. So that's why I'm missing it. - So I could say the exact same thing you just said, but just reverse the terms. Outside was so boring. Inside, TV is where the action was at. - And that's why you guys are good friends. You're like opposites attract. - Yeah, exactly. We're opposites attract. And that's why we watch "Duck Dynasty" is to watch other people experience the outdoors while I was in an air conditioned room watching it on television.

So anyway, I said, so I Googled to find out who had the rights to this as a movie.

And I tracked down these guys who had been friends with the author. She's no longer with us, but they held the rights. And I gave them this hard pitch about how I was born to make this movie. And they're like, well, we've already got it set up at this big studio. And there's another director attached, a big time director. And so I was just so upset. I'm like, so I wrote down in my calendar on my computer and my phone, this phrase, pray for pageant.

And I just set it for once a week. Once a week it would pop up and I would

pray that God, you know, I tried to do like the, please let your will be done and I'll be happy with whatever your will is. But also please sabotage everything that you're doing. But please don't let anyone else do this and may you send your angels to prevent anyone else from directing this movie. But thy will be done. But thy will be done and I'll rejoice regardless of whether I have or not. You know, all that other. All that other Christian nonsense. So, and I would tell Amanda sometimes, you know, let's pray for Christmas pageant. And every year we'd read it and get more and more

intent on the fact that I need to do this, right?

So I would check in every year and I would sometimes just Google, you know, is there any news on the movie? And nothing would happen with it for a while. So very long story short, a couple times we got really close. Like the rights would elapse with the studio and the original rights holders would say, oh yeah, now they're free and available. And I'm like, okay, please. Like I have to make this. And they would finally about five years ago, I had this big opportunity because they're like, all right, now we're really, we've been frustrated with the studio system. They had a meeting with me.

And then a couple weeks later, I get on the phone and they say, we're going to go with the big studio and this different director. And I went, I told Amanda and I said, it's over. I said, they said no. And I said, this new studio is apparently very excited about it. So I go back to my office.

And I sit down and literally pops up on the screen, pray for pageant. And I said, I can't do it anymore. And I went to delete it. And I literally, I can, I can remember it as clear as day. I might even get emotional remembering this because I just remember like my, my, I literally moved the mouse to click the delete. And I felt God just go, not yet. Don't do that.

And it's just one of those handful of times in my life where I really felt, it felt clear, you know, like this isn't me. I was like, okay. And so I went, all right, I'll pray for pageants. And I did the prayer again. This time I'm really frustrated. I'm like, don't get my hopes up anymore. Then Amanda comes into my office and goes, I was just kind of praying and frustrated and talking to God. And I felt God just put really straight clear on my heart. It's not over. I'm like, oh crap, don't tell me that. Because again, I'm going to keep getting my hopes up. And I don't want to, I don't want to keep getting disappointed.

So a couple of years late go by, and this is just a few years ago now. I check in again. I go to Dallas time for my annual check-in. You know, what's, what's the rights and situation. He goes funny. You should check in a week ago. The studio forgot to renew the rights and now they're back with us. And they really want to renew them, but we've been frustrated. It's been taken so long. And he goes just a couple of days ago, my mom called me out of the blue. She's in her seventies. And she said, have you heard of this show called the chosen?

And he goes, well, that's funny. You should say that the creator of the show is always bugging me about getting the rights to Christmas pageant. She goes, you better give him the right. He's the only one who can make this movie. Are you kidding me? You gotta watch this show. And so he's like, I gotta listen to my mom. And so he watched the show and loved it and then said, let's talk. And so this conversation we're having right now that you've watched the best Christmas pageant ever movie that I got a chance to make that we've been working on

and thinking about and praying over and envisioning for 20 years is really a, I don't, I don't like you used to use the term dream come true all the time, but it's like a calling fulfilled. Like I, I just knew that I knew that I knew that this story I had to tell now when I started the chosen, of course, best Christmas pageant ever is still in the back of my mind. But to answer your original question was that came first. That was the, whenever people would ask me,

what's the one story you really want to tell or the one movie you want to make? I'd be like, best Christmas pageant ever. The Chosen became something that, of course. Paid the way for it. Yeah, right. Now, I think it's accomplished a little bit more than just set up for the Christmas pageant. But I'm like, we sometimes think of it as the Chosen is the thing that got us the best Christmas pageant ever. But the through line of both of these projects is telling the stories of Jesus, but from unique perspectives that you haven't considered before.

And so then you see the story in this new, fresh way. Right. Yeah. Seeing it for what it really was, which is sacrifice and humility and poverty and outcasts. I mean, I'm not going to give the best part of the movie away, but every movie has a

salvation scene or whatever the scene is where there's the you know the the success that comes out of it and that moment what it what it was if I were to put it in one word it was a sincere experience with Christ and it's so difficult to do films about Christ because you don't want to come across as preaching at someone but I felt like when when I watched it that moment it was the sincerity of

that drew the church in. Yeah, it felt organic. It was a sincere silence. There was a silence in that part of the movie that I thought,

where is this going? And it settled in. And I got real emotional. And I look over at Jace and he's wiping his tears, you know. So it is about Christ and it makes it very personal, which is what you want with the Lord. Well, what I was thinking in that moment, because I didn't share this with you, but when I was watching that. So when my dad came to Christ and then we eventually followed,

We're living in a community where it's hard to describe these people, people that live around my dad.

Some people call them river rats. They're not red. It's more than redneck. It's deeper into the woods. And there's an element of danger that follows all that. But what flooded my mind was all those experiences because we literally loved our neighbors as followers of Jesus. And I'm pretty sure everyone down there has heard the story of Jesus at some point. Well, some of these people we would invite.

and they would come to church with us. And it was so amazing just in that moment of the movie how all of these little memories flooded. Because I remember we had a guest family with us. They're hearing people sing, and you're thinking, I'm wondering what they're thinking. And I leaned over, and there was a guy who was about my age, and he had tears in his eyes, which is probably the first time he's cried without somebody trying to hurt him. Right.

And I said, "What are you, are you all right?" And he had our bulletin, back then we had church bulletins, I'm not sure we still do. He had a bulletin in his hand and he pointed to a phrase and it said, "Everyone is invited."

And it just, it was like some potluck somewhere. And I was like, why is that moving you so much? He's like, well, I've just, every time we'd ever been to church, I mean, they would be scared that everyone might come. And it just showed in his heart how divisive

their family had been about how you look, how much money you have, or what color your skin is. And I was just really moved by that of all the things that I thought would capture someone. But sometimes in churches that comes across. Well, what if the world does show up? Right.

It's a spirit of we're not sure we want to deal with and all the messy all the messiness that comes with it I the thing I love about the film and what I love about what you're saying is this idea of they the little herdman group didn't get cleaned up before and

They came in, right? And no doubt, like as you're sharing about whatever death movie you're watching right now. Death Wish. Death Wish. It's a pretty good movie, but watch the movie. It is a good movie. It's just not for six-year-olds. Not for six-year-olds. It's not a child movie. But what a picture of how patient God is with us. We come and we don't automatically...

get everything in order. And yet it was Christians. We put that on other people. We're like, get cleaned up before you walk in or immediately get cleaned up the moment that you come to Jesus. There's a lot of layers that have, that God patiently works through with us and is still working through with us decades later. So I love that about the movie.

that you see this little group and that they come in and that they capture the heart of Jesus, but they're not there. It's come as you are. Yeah, exactly. Come as you are, just as you are. That's the gospel we sometimes alter. So Jace, I'm kind of one of those dinosaurs with TV. You know, I still, I watch, I have direct TV and the main reason, so I can watch the Dodgers play every night in football. And then I watch a little bit of Fox news and triple D and,

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There's no doubt. And my parents seem to have a deeper appreciation of that sense of where they came from. And so we would invite these cast of characters every week into their home. And there's a famous story, Zach loves this story. One of the women that came who was, had some mental issues, you know, and my parents loved her. But one night

after we had the meal, they would call these pig outs. And so, and my dad said, if you feed them, they'll come. And then he would share Jesus. And it actually works. Which is true. It happens in the movie too. The kids come because they hear their snacks at church. No doubt. So these are all the memories of us flooding. But one night, it's a famous story that we've told many times. But my mom always, and my grandma before her, because we had so many pets and

that would just roam the and people would come down to this area and dump out dogs and my parents would take them in and so there's just so many animals so my mom would have a big skillet where she would put the scraps and the grease and all these things and once it got full she would let the dogs just tear it tear off into it in the yard well that woman who was there no one knew this but she fixed her plate from that pot

And as she's eating it, which is a week's worth of debris that are leftovers, she asked my mom, I'd like to get this recipe from you. Even the scraps were good. It's always sad. You know, and you're like, what a perspective here. This woman has not been living half the hog here, you know? Well, there's a moment in the film that I think also you can relate to is when the dad, this is one of the things I'm proud of with the film too, and this is from the book, but

The mom is kind of the main character. It's a love letter in many ways to stay-at-home moms who volunteer at church. But we also don't make the dad kind of the dumb, bumbling guy off to the side. Thank you so much. At one point, he says to the family, he...

He knows the Herdman's are bad, but he also, because he's on the charitable works committee at the church and he's the one who helps deliver things to families in need, he also says, you know what, family? Keep talking about the Herdman's. I think you need to see something. And they join him to deliver a Christmas ham to the Herdman's.

And in that moment, that's the moment that causes the mom and the daughter to kind of shift perspective when they see how the kids react to a ham. The kids are so excited and so happy. Oh my gosh, it's the ham man when he shows up. And they've never seen the Herdman's smile or act, but they're like, oh my gosh, for a single ham,

this is how they're reacting. It's similar to the story you just told. And she also, he says, where is your mom home? And she says, oh, not when the sun's up.

And they're realizing, okay, this is now, this is opening us up. There's a why to their behavior, you know. But that's in all your projects. That's the reason they turn out good is these subtleties and details that you don't have to over-explain the obvious. Right. I think that was really appealing because we all get it. And even in the kids, which is an embellished kind of version as it starts off, which I had to like, I was like, Missy, I was like, no, how?

It's a heightened reality. It's coming from their perspective. That's reality. You call it heightened. Well, when we were, when I was talking to the production designer and the costumer and the, and the director of photography and even the actors, I said, this, this is the kid's version of, of this story, like a Christmas story, which again, you haven't seen, but one of the things that you probably recognize Missy is, is,

It's it's it's same thing with that show. The wonder years, because it's from a kid's perspective, things are just a little bit exaggerated, you know, and everything's a little bigger and that is a bit of a heightened reality, which I think makes then the real moments, the ones that are less heightened, even more impactful.

Yeah. Because I'm getting it. I was wondering how the sausage was made in that. And I was wondering how you got these kids. I mean, how many takes does it take? Because, because when I, you know, I'm not a TV guy until we were thrust into TV, but I remember every time we had little kids or pets,

There was a joke among the production people. Never work with kids or pets, yeah. Never do this. So I was just wondering, I mean, that was quite, that had to be quite the challenge. Yeah, it was very challenging. And you've also got limited time because of child labor laws. Yeah. Crazy child labor laws that keep us from abusing these children. But you only get them for a certain amount of time and you can't go into overtime. They use the term pumpkin, which is...

matching your shirt. - Thank you. - But they say the kid pumpkins at X time and pumpkin is like a reference to Cinderella is that at this point, the kid turns into pumpkin. You cannot go into overtime. You can't pay more money to work them.

They're gone. So we had this X amount of time and I've got a bunch of kids working with all with varying degrees of ADHD and OCD and all the other things. And there are kids that want to be actors, which means mom was looking for an outlet. So they were great and the parents were great. It all went well, but it is hurting cats. I mean, the cliche is true.

So I'm a little bit equipped for that. Just I'm a parent of four kids who have an adopted son. We've done a lot of work in special needs ministry, which really helps you learn how to corral difficult to crowd people. So I was able to do it, but it still doesn't take away from the urgency and the stress of it. And then they've got to hit their mark. They've got to say what they're supposed to say. So yeah, so it was a lot. And we'd have a couple of scenes that were longer and the kids are sitting there

for that whole time. So it wasn't easy. But another thing, because I know you like some of these behind the scenes insights, sometimes the kids are going to be gone before the scene's done filming. And so you have to shoot their coverage, which is when the camera's on them, shoot them first. And then Judy Greer, who plays the mom, and Lauren Graham from Gilmore Girls and Parenthood, she plays the narrator and she shows up at the end of the movie.

sometimes they'd have to act with a piece of tape, you know, stuck to the side of the camera. And they're responding to someone who's reading the kids lines off screen because you couldn't have the kids there. So that was a really, that was a challenge as well. But

Even in those scenes where the kids are, some of the kids are crying or there's an emotional scene like those kids, it was real tears. I mean, some of these kids are really great actors. Well, that's why I asked the question because I was really fascinated. I was like, did they buy into this story or is it just, you know?

God's presence in this. - A lot of, yeah, both of that. - A little bit of both. And they really loved each other and Dallas is really, really wonderful with kids. And so that created an environment that was just actually enjoyable. It wasn't just like, he was fun and they were,

They understood what they were doing. He made sure he always makes sure his people understand the point of what you're doing and what are we saying here? And, and so they just, it was a great experience. That's how we, we met is because of the chosen. You guys were going to have me on the podcast to talk about it. Cause your dad is, I was actually a big fan of it. He doesn't normally watch TV. But we ended up being on the podcast together and then became friends. And, and but yeah,

Speaking of bringing up The Chosen, because your question is about also what do the actors think being part of something that is so clearly gospel-centric? And some people have asked, what is it like? The actors, what do they believe? And the majority of our cast on The Chosen aren't believers, or at least not traditional believers. Majority of the cast on Best Christmas Pageant ever, same thing. But when there's a story that's well told...

and there's clearly also when it comes to especially these gospel stories where there's this almost transcendent hope transcend there's something beyond just what we're experiencing in in the flesh that i think really speaks to people regardless of whether you know exactly who you are talking about when when the bible when the message of the gospels hits or when there's a bible story that's accurately told

I think God does something. And so we see all the time, the actors will be stirred emotionally, even if they don't necessarily, it's not something they typically practice, but it overwhelms them. And sometimes they even tell me, I don't know what happened in that scene. I was just here like, I don't know what happened. I'm like, exactly. I'm like, I know exactly what happened. I had, just to back up a little bit, which was part of the reason I loved making this film, is that, um,

Like we said, it's a little bit of a, it's kind of a, I don't want to say Trojan horse because it's pretty overt, but it's a way to tell the story of Jesus in a way that,

a lot of people will enjoy, not just Christian. Trojan horse refers to a classic Greek story. Classic Greek story. I actually think he... I think that's all Troy. Okay, that was that. But the Trojan horse comes in and it looks like just a big wooden horse, but there's an army inside of it, right? Well, when I first saw that movie, I thought, no, this is a cool story. This is a good one. I like this one. That's a good idea for a war. Yeah. Okay, here's the point. When we were casting this

Movie with all these little kids and I was watching tape after tape after tape I tend to be one of the first layers before it she's like a co-casting director She really does she has a women I think especially have really good instincts for kind of the character beneath the surface and so she There's a lot. That's why I think most casting directors are women They just sometimes I'll be like he's a really good actor get a read on and she'll be like he doesn't quite Inhabit that persona and I'm like, okay, I wouldn't have really picked up on that as much as I was watching so much tape and

Of so many kids. And the words that I grew up with as a Christian, like simple things like frankincense or a name like Herod. King Herod. You know those words were being butchered and mispronounced. And I remember, you know, I'm watching tape in like a kind of a business way, right? Like a detached way where I'm just evaluating talent. And all of a sudden I realize it's been...

after video after video of kids not knowing these words. Not hearing the story. And when a kid is reading on a camera, when they're doing an audition on a camera, they're reading with a parent. They're reading with an adult who also does not know that word. And I just realized how many people have not actually heard this Christmas story. Like we're doing this story because we want people to know the Christmas story. But these littles get to hear the Christmas story. Like the first ones to hear it were the ones acting. And you know, The Chosen is often like that too where we're

We get to talk about Bible stories really quite freely with people who've never heard them because it's the nature of the work. But it was really sad to me how many people hadn't heard the Christmas story or at least enough to know those really common words to us. That we take for granted. That's what the movie is. And these kids in the first rehearsal. I just started crying. I had to like take a minute. I was crying while I was trying to get through tape. I think the film's going to, I think it's going to be...

you're going to get a lot of people show up just because it's christmas time the name of the band they're not going to realize well yeah well that's what she means by trojan horse is it's lionsgate big hollywood studio releasing this in theaters all over the country

And it just looks like a classic Christmas theatrical movie. And it is. And I didn't make it overly ponderous or anything like that, like maybe a typical church movie. But it's funny and it's got all the things that, I mean, people haven't batted an eye. We've had lots of nonbelievers who've watched it and just love the story. But yeah, there's something transcendent about the true story. I love the perspective. I mean, of course, I kind of, I related to the mom and the church part of it for sure. Of course.

And the light bulb going off of forget what we're trying to do and focus on these children, which is kind of what we came from this past weekend with our Miamou Fun Day is what it's called. Right. Is forget the schedule, forget what we normally do and focus on the children and on the families and what their needs are at the moment. So we've kind of worked focused on trying to focus, if that makes sense. There's a part in the movie where.

That was unexpected to me when the library, when the older sister is finally dealing with some of the younger siblings not wanting to do it. And they're kind of complaining and they're not happy about this. They're really here just for the snacks. And she's like, you need to read about the characters you're playing. She's exploring the story because she wants to understand that. That moment where she said, y'all aren't getting it. We can become someone else for just a little period of time. Yeah.

And that just went all over me because I think because of the Miamou kids, I'm going to get choked up about that. We do all the time. I'm with you. I'm right with you right now. But just, you know, the children are our own lives, Karina and our baby that we have, A.K. Mm-hmm.

You know, I hope one day AK does not have to say that. Say, I just want to play someone else just for a period of time. We pray all the time. His life is going to be great. It's going to be redeemed. Karina has already lived through that, you know, being an orphan from Nicaragua. And I think about her childhood. Like, did she how many times did she say that? I wish I could have.

been someone else for at least a period of time. So this movie is not just for the regular church-going folks who want to kind of pay attention for a little while to some needy children over the holiday season. This is for people who are living a life that they wish they could become someone else, and they can through Christ.

and that's what this is about not for a little bit not just such a great just a small part of their life that's really well said yeah that's why i said there were deeper things and even in jesus's ministry what i liked is you subtly made fun of a lot of church functions and just missing the power of who jesus is i mean you just do the same thing over and over and think about what

American churches do. We do the same thing every week. We do the same thing every Christmas. But it almost sometimes turns into a bit of a yawner. So there was some subtle darts being thrown at kind of how this loses its purpose. And yet finding your passion in really who Jesus is, the real authentic Jesus.

I have a question I wanted to ask y'all about that because, you know, the funny parts of the movie, I mean, I was laughing out loud. I love, I'm easily entertained in a movie. I just am, you know. So I'm laughing. Jason's not really, but he's not a laugh out loud kind of guy, you know, so I'm laughing a lot. But when the lady, you know, has the injury and breaks her leg and she can't direct for this year,

And you think if you're living in that moment and that woman, I'm sure thought, look what Satan is trying to do. He's trying to run this Christmas pageant. Something good is going to happen because Satan is working so hard. And, you know, we talked about this previously on the podcast. We talked about the me and me fund. But Satan really, really worked this past weekend in trying to stop what was happening during our weekend. My question to you is.

Even in the chosen, even in Christmas pageant, and even in your own personal lives, with the rise of the fame and all the glory, basically, that people are shoving your way. When have you seen Satan say, oh, yeah, you think you're all that and a bag of chips? I'm going to stop you. And then God comes right in and paves the way again.

Have you seen that? How many times? Do you have any examples? - With mind numbing regularity, it has been constant. And in fact, that was one of the things that we valued about our friendship when we first got to know you is that you experienced a similar kind of hyper fueled, like from zero to 60,

In terms of... Just like a takeoff of the show. Whether you want to call it success or just being well-known or whatever, and also impact. It's hard to even describe what it is. Spiritual impact. It's just like a lightning bolt. Yeah. That you're not expecting. And so then you go, all right, well, the...

The tough thing about this is how fast it's growing and we're just kind of, we're, our heads spinning and all this. But the good news is we're now a little bit more successful. We can relax a little bit. We can be content with what we've got. This is what we've been seeking for a long time is to have a, be able to, you know, make a living off of this career. And certainly that's going to happen now because of the success of the show. And then you look back of the last five years ago, these have been the hardest five years of our life without a close second.

More, and you think even when you have security in your job or even financially, you go, that should at least provide a little bit of stability. Oh, it has been the opposite. I mean, that last year has been the hardest year of our life. So you can talk about where Satan has come after us the most.

Well, I mean, we're dealing with chronic illness. In the last year, that's been the thing with one of our kids. And I'm not blaming Satan for that. I don't know the source of that. Sometimes that comes... Either way, it ultimately comes from the hand of God. So it's something that he's allowing. But what we're seeing then in that is like...

just that in your ear all the time about doubting God's goodness, right? Doubting his love for your kid, doubt, feeling like we don't even have margin for this. Like I'm going from specialist to specialist and I don't even have time. I've got books due. We've got places we're supposed to, and yet- I mean, you guys know this as well as anyone with your daughter, where you just go, this is the, when someone says, how can we pray for you? Or you're like, yeah, just for us, it's Maya. How much time do

Well, people come up and they're like, how's Mia? And like, even if you've just been through a surgery or some weird diagnosis or we're going in a different direction, but I'm like, how am I going to say this in one sentence? I know. And it's like... I know. I'm always just a little like, I don't know how to answer questions about how things are. Keep sharing, but hand me the Bible because this is a Bible podcast. Okay. But keep going. So what we see is...

really in the in our ears also we had some weird spiritual stuff happening inside our house with multiple kids where you're just like I'm not one to to call things to every say it's a demon but there were some there have been some weird things so so overt a

attacks and and then this quiet like if if he can get us to doubt right if he can get us to be just even distracted it that's I feel like we almost for each other now and we've got mostly adult kids but now with between even our kids and each other it's like wait a second

That seems like that's not a voice you should be listening to. We had come to Jesus meetings a lot in our living room with everyone, like a check-in. We had daily check-ins, Jason and I did during Dynasty, but we would check in on our kids every few days, come to Jesus meeting because we felt something was off. Something's off. And we had to get it right back on track. Yeah, and I think the most common and most effective attack would be marriage.

Just getting at each other. There are times where I've been like, I am uniquely irritated with him. Right? And then I'm like, ah. Uniquely irritated. Uniquely irritated. That's a new term. Yeah. Right? But it's those times where I'm like, I am being like, poked. Uniquely irritated. Rick the Jenkins. Yeah, yeah. Where you just know you're being poked. You're being like, there are, because I can be annoyed all by myself. But like, sometimes it's just this next level of,

Of stirring things up all the time, stirring things up to actually... To divide that partnership. Well, Exodus 14 is the story of the parting of the Red Sea. And about four or five years ago, we were in a moment in the show that we've experienced constantly, to your point of...

we've got nowhere to go. We've done everything we're supposed to do. We're in the right spirit. We're surrendering God on it. Our ego's not in the way, but every decision we've made to get us to this point has run out now of space and we have nothing left. Like if we're going to move forward, the only way we can move forward is if God does something, right? And in that case, it was a literal, we can't shoot. If this doesn't happen, we can't even shoot the next. So I said to her, I go, we just were told no. This is similar to our Christmas pageant story where we just got told no, it's not going to happen.

And this one always, when, when God has put something on her heart, um, to her credit, nothing's gonna keep, get her off that, that plane. She knows, she knows that she knows. And so, uh, we had been in this, in this one story, I'll just very quickly share. We were looking for a location to film season two and every location was, it was during COVID. Everything was shutting down. We had the opportunity for this big set in Utah and, uh,

God had really laid it on my heart when I was on the set. Like you're some of the things you film here are going to change the world. And we're going to do, this is where this is a place. This is a special place. And I really felt that. And then when they said, no, you can't use it. I'm like,

I guess I was wrong. I guess I didn't hear properly. I guess God's voice, I mixed it up with my own, but Amanda had had the same, um, passion and the same impression from the Lord. And she goes, ah, no, I'm like, they just said, no. She goes, yeah, I just think that's God putting you at the edge of the red sea so that when the waters part, you know, it's him. Wow.

And I'm like, quit saying that because that's going to get my hopes up. Literally two days later, it's a long story, but like things that never would have normally happened. People who weren't even in their office felt this impression from God to check in and then certain. So I control of the location. Two days later, it's like it's a yes and we're filming at this location. So we start referring to them as Red Sea moments. And here's what's so interesting about the story of the parting of the Red Sea.

So, Exodus 14, "Then the Lord said to Moses, 'Tell the Israelites to turn back and encamp near,'" and then he gives all these terms that I don't know how to pronounce, of pi hareroth, between Migdal and the sea, and he says it again, "They are to encamp by the sea."

And so he's used the word encamp twice now in two verses. So he's not saying, I want you to go there and hold on. He's saying, I want you to go there and actually set up tents. You're going to be there for a bit. And you're going to be there. And all the words that you're not reading, it was, it was, look, it was geographical location. It was really specific. Like their names of geographical locations. And here's why. So, and it's the worst place to encamp.

He says, Pharaoh will think the Israelites are wandering around the land in confusion, hemmed in by a desert. They are hemmed in by a desert and the sea is the only thing there and there's nowhere else to go. So you're stuck. And he told him to hang there, right? And camp, you know what camping is like. I'm not a, I'm not a camper. And I will harden. You hear what camp. And here's the other thing. I will harden Pharaoh's heart and he will pursue them.

so again he's he's going i'm going to do this thing that's really bad i'm going to make a bad guy even worse and he's going to pursue you and then he says this for the first time and he says this three times in this chapter but i will gain glory for myself through pharaoh and all his army and the egyptians will know that i am the lord

So then the story continues. When the king of Egypt was told the people have fled, Pharaoh changed his mind, gets all these chariots, all these horsemen, all these people are going to go chase him down. He's like, how could we let them go? We couldn't have done this. So now they're pursuing. As Pharaoh approached, this is verse 10, the Israelites looked up and there were the Egyptians marching after them.

They were terrified and cried out to the Lord. They said to Moses, was it because there were no graves in Egypt that you brought us to the desert to die? And then there's more, it's a famous story of when they were like, we would have rather been slaved than, and we told you this at the time, Moses, and now you're here.

So Moses says, do not be afraid. Stand firm and you will see the deliverance the Lord will bring you today. And I love this sentence. The Egyptians you see today, you will never see again. It's like such a PG version of saying like, they're going to die. You're seeing them now, you will not see them again. This was a legitimate death wish. Yes, yes. Thank you.

Always bring it back to his childhood. This is why you saw that movie. It was for the Lord. The Lord, there's the other thing. The Lord will fight for you. You need only to be still. And another version that I normally read ESV is you only need to be silent. Yeah. I'm not good at that. She's not good at that. We solve problems. He's like, you just sit there in camp and be silent or be still. Watching the problems descend upon you. So then, yeah. So then God says to Moses,

Raise your staff, stretch out your hand over the sea, divide the water so that the Israelites can go through the sea on dry ground. I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians. Again, he's like, I'm going to do this. I'm not just going to allow it. I'm actually going to make them make a decision that is very threatening and dangerous. I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so they will go in after them. And I will gain glory through Pharaoh and all his army. The Egyptians will know that I am the Lord. And then he says again, when I gain glory, just in case Moses missed it the first two times.

the egyptians will know that i'm the lord when i gain glory through pharaoh his cherries and his horsemen and that's the other interesting phrase when he says gain glory he says through pharaoh i'm going to gain glory through the bad thing through the hard thing yeah so then the angel of the lord has been traveling in front of them and then you of course know the story they stretch the hand out of the sea the waters part they get through the egyptians come through get completely drowned and it ends with

The chapter ends with when when the Israelites saw the great power of the Lord displayed against the Egyptians the people feared the Lord and put their trust in him and in Moses his servant It's a final little nugget that I gained from that story. He doesn't call Moses his leader Because I'm the guy who's been tasked to tell the story of the chosen I was a guy who's tasked to tell the story the best Christmas pageant ever and that's a leadership position and

And this chapter of this book telling about the most famous leader in history, Moses, besides other than Jesus, of course, Moses, and he's referred to as a servant. A servant, yeah. And so that—this is a very long answer to your original question, but this is a Bible podcast. But we see that over and over and over again to a point where sometimes—

We'll know it's a God thing because of how weird it is. Because of how awful it is. Like, why did you, like, there was this one day, it's another long story that I've told before, but where the weather was supposed to be bad. We only had one day to shoot. The weather was supposed to be bad. Amanda felt the pressure from the Lord that we were going to be fine. And we get to the day of filming and the fog is so thick, we can't see 20 feet in front of our face. And so for eight hours, we couldn't film.

And to the point where we literally got in our cars and as we were driving out of the parking lot and as we had just decided we could, we had to cancel these scenes and my writers and I were trying to figure out how to rewrite them and figure them out in a different location. Literally a wind gust comes, the fog lifts in less than five minutes. You're an outdoorsman, you probably haven't seen that too often. It takes time to dissipate. Fog lifts.

And not only do we end up getting to shoot everything that we normally would take 12 hours, we got it done in four because as the sun was setting, it was reflecting off of the fog, which extended the day for us and we could get everything we needed. Now you can say, why does that even need to happen? Why didn't God just like make it easy from day one? This is a Jesus project. It's his project. He wants it to succeed.

Why put the fog there in the first place? Or if there's going to be fog there from non-spiritual reasons, why not just give us a good day? Yeah.

And I truly believe it's this Red Sea thing. He tells you to encamp. He tells you to see. He could have just not even had the Egyptians pursue the Israelites. Why not just release them, let them go, and they'll praise God that they're free. He constantly, throughout the book of Exodus, put these hardened people's hearts, put resistance in front of them, gave them giants to conquer, put walls up that they had to use a miracle, rely on a miracle to save, to be saved. That happens constantly.

- It's too, he will gain glory. - It's so moving to hear, but so hard to live out. You should do a project on Moses.

that's a really good point jason okay so starts here so what a coincidence we just announced to the world that we were doing a moses show but that's one of the reasons why i'm so drawn to tell that story after the chosen oh well that's because because god has had us so many times as again under qualified participants leaders slash servants

of something that's grown so much bigger than you're capable of. And so when Moses was like, yeah, but I'm not a good speaker and God's like, well, I'll do this for you. So I know how to direct projects, but there is a limit to how good I am. And the chosen has far exceeded that limit. It is much better than I am. And it's so clear and it's easy to be humble. It's a really good material. Yeah.

Well, I've got good news. I've got good news that when we go over this far without making a break, that means it's a great podcast. The bad news is that we are over. So we're going to air the whole thing because I think this was such a great conversation. So if you're listening, you're getting a bonus five or six minutes here. But

So where can we send people, our audience, if they want to find out about the film? Is there a website to go to now? Well, just, I mean, it's like in any other movie. You just look at your local theater. So it comes out officially November 8th. So that's Friday.

But this Saturday, November 2nd, is the early access opportunity. So if you want, and there's also the opportunity, I believe you can get, I don't want to, there's a possibility. I don't want to, because I don't know this 100%, but I'm pretty sure you get, your kids' tickets are free. Yeah.

I think they told me that too. So whatever, I don't have the- It's like a buy one for yourself. We'll put it in the show notes. If you're listening or watching, look in the show notes, look in the description. We'll have the information of how you can get free tickets for your kids. But if that's not the case anymore- What if you have five kids? Yeah, no. I think it's buy one, get one free. There's a limit. I don't think there's five parents of these kids. So I think your first two kids are free. The rest are afterwards. But come as you are.

- Come as you are. - Yeah, yeah. Everyone is invited. - Everyone's welcome. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's invited. - Everyone's

It's a scene from The Last Supper, actually. And it's only available in front of Best Christmas Pageant Ever on November 2nd. After that, you'll have to wait until season five comes out. And actually, don't put it off until Christmas because we might not make it to Christmas if we don't have a couple good opening weekends. So it's...

that's the nature of the film world is you have to do well in the theaters to stay in the theaters so we actually need people to go because eventually Thanksgiving comes and Wicked comes out and then Moana 2 and all these other good stuff we just need you to come to our good stuff well I mean Unashamed Nation is headed toward the sea they're going to show up they're going to head to the sea and be still we might have to buy out one of our local theaters again

Yeah, good idea. Honestly, I was going to say this. I know because we did The Blind, I was saying, if you want to see more films like this, go watch it. But the truth is this film stands on its own. It's not a charity. Yeah, I really say that too. Don't do it out of guilt just because I'm asking you to. It's so good. And how many films can you take your kids to these days? I'm just excited to have a

I can take my entire family to that. Well, that's something that's actually unique when you think of, and if you want to call this a faith-based movie, I suppose it is. Cause you know, I'm a, I'm a Jesus guy. But when you think of faith-based films, there's actually, I can't really think of any that are family films. Yeah. Like,

they're clean. You can take your kids to them, but they're not, even the blind, you know, it's like, that's not necessarily a one that like an eight year old is going to necessarily appreciate. And even some of the more successful ones, but this is one that really like, this is a family experience movie. It's a Chris, it hopefully becomes a Christmas class to talk about lots of, lots of conversation around the table afterwards.

Yeah, it really is a lot to digest, hopefully. Well, thank you guys for coming to our new studio. The best unashamed recording in history. Ever. The most comfortable one. We'll break the internet here. Make sure you share this episode as well on all your social media platforms if you're listening. So thank you guys. Thanks, guys. Thanks for doing this. So good to see you. We've got to keep meeting like this. Hug, hug.

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