Ep 927 | Jase Goes There: What People Get Wrong About Original Sin & Are Babies Born Sinners?
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I am unashamed. What about you? Just an example. When we stand in a pool of water, they came down there to come through that pool of water. That's what they came for. We want you to baptize us. They come from great distances. Well, they had heard about Jesus. Heard about Jesus.

So that's because we talk about him all the time on the podcast. Be completely humble and gentle. I'm looking for that from old Jace Robertson and his buddy. My buddy. Yeah. Oh, Zach. This is the buddy. From the Zach camp. Well, this happened because dad and I today, but welcome, by the way, to Unashamed. If you're listening, you're probably like, what? What have we stepped into? Well, dad and I are sitting here, like, waiting to get the podcast started. Jace comes in on his phone talking to Zach.

Well, we're just, we're waiting for the podcast to start and they're having this whole theological discussion. And I'm like, Hey, if you put your headphones on, we could, this can be the podcast or dad and I can just sit here and listen in on your conversation. We had a podcast podcast. And dad's like, we just need to get to Ephesians four. Forget about whatever you believe to be a scary statement, but that the apostle Paul said, there's one body, one spirit,

The Spirit's given, you know, when you put your faith in Jesus and his death for you on a cross was buried and raised from the dead. One hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one. He's over all, through all, and in all. So I would just right there. I mean, I use that all the time.

I went to White's Ferry Road, but you see there's a group. You've got a name there, you know, but that's not good.

Just keep it above the names. Just go with what I just read. Well, you bring up an interesting point, Dad, because you and I were talking about this before we came on air as well, that you want to, the Bible and the driver is Jesus being the point of the entire Bible. So you want to try to always keep that high look at everything you do. That is correct. It's really our point for the whole podcast. We decided to just make it unashamed about Jesus because he's unashamed of us.

We had a packed house, and they allowed me to sit down while we were, you know, normally Sunday morning. So there's a chair there. I said, Otto needs a chair and the gospel behind me for whoever. Well, I asked the whole group there, the packed house, standing room only. I just preached the gospel to them because I asked them.

Before we even started, I said, did any of y'all come down in here? And I tried to hook them up. One, you were called with one hope and one Lord, one faith, one baptism. I said, that's what we fixed to cover here. Well, I said, so how about y'all? How many of you have seen that and said, well, I need to grab a hold of that right there. You know, that one baptism. Hmm.

Well, one little young woman, she was about 17 or 18. I saw her hand come up. I said, there's one right there that has come to be born again. Well, then I preached the gospel of Ephesians 4 and 16. One raised their hand before I gave them the lesson. After I gave them the lesson, 16, 17 came forward. Yeah, yeah. Take me to the water. I did.

We haven't seen anything like that in 30 years. Think about it. Those come every week. You'll be on up there, Al, but you just think about it. You say, there was a pretty good-sized group from all over the United States that responded. We didn't wait and say, well, I'll tell you what you do. Our church says this and that and the other. We just stayed with the text and the ones that rolled in down there and said,

We'll be born again. I would call it the spontaneity of salvation. It's just, it's spontaneous because that's how people find it, spontaneously. Yeah. Which is what we read about. I was surprised. I was surprised because didn't but one raise their hand going in, but at the end of it, there was 15 more that had said, hmm.

But it was their decision. Well, we moved on it and we stopped what we were doing and started baptizing people. That's what they wanted. That was their response. Well, we took them to the water. I had no, no, nothing about looking for the groups on where they added and none of that. Yeah. You know, what group are you with? What group are you with? Well, you'd be there all morning. Make every effort to keep the unity of the spirit.

Unity of the Spirit is the key to what's going on in the book of Ephesians. Keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. So we love them all. We're there to preach the gospel. But you don't have to start labeling who, where are you, where did you come from. There are so many groups. I mean, it's heartbreaking in a lot of ways.

Because there's so many different groups on something so critical and so easy to see if you just take it for what it says. You take one page and turn it to the left, and then you're looking at Galatians. You're all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with him. I don't think it's a hard thing for people to see.

Just keep it there. You just quote the text. And I just noticed a lot of people respond to it. Every Sunday I see them. They all come. Turn themselves in. Turn themselves in. I love it. So are y'all going to talk about what you were talking about, or are we just going to save that for later? I never got the skinny on. Where do we go with all that? I guess I wanted somebody to talk to about what I discovered.

And because y'all know me, I try to keep everything simple. Every time Zach makes things complex, I make fun of him. Yeah, you do. But in this case. That's why he's your buddy. I don't think they're that complicated, but I hear what you're saying there. I went through it with my wife this morning, kind of what I had discovered, but it's kind of deep.

And she said, that's amazing, babe. Don't do that for the podcast. That was his opening when he called me this morning. So that's why I called Zach, because I thought. I don't see that particular response.

Well, she was saying it's too deep. I don't think anybody understands what you're talking about. That was like her cousin Kim 28 years ago when I did her wedding. She said, you know how you always tell those funny stories and everybody loves it and they love your preaching stuff? And I was like, yeah. She said, don't do that. Don't do that at my wedding. All right. I'll tell you what, let me just give what I'm talking about and

Because you grasp it immediately, even though you hadn't seen what I discovered before. Because you don't know what you don't know. But I've always been enamored, not just to Phil's point, that there's so many different religious groups who get so many different things. I wish we were closer. Well, I do too. That's why I try to unite people in Jesus. And so we start arguing.

And really, in Ephesians 2, there are a lot of arguments among theologians and religious people on what stuff means. But it all centers around, I think, how to define what the Bible will translate a lot of times as the sinful nature or the flesh or what are some of the other translations of that. Taking that Greek word,

and translate i guess that's the only is that the only two sinful nature wrath i think you're by nature like you were hitting on by nature well now hang on on your on your way getting the cart ahead of the the horse so so i'm just going to give you an example of what i'm talking about so where it says in chapter two in verse three no he starts off i feel like we need to read all of it but

When he said you were dead in your sins and transgressions in which you used to live. Yep. He's talking to humans here, right? Yeah. Yep. When you followed the ways of this world and the ruler of the kingdom of the air. Who's that? That's the evil one. Yep. Satan. The spirit is not work in those who are disobedient. All of us lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings,

of our sinful nature. Now, most translations put flesh. So it's like the human, I've always, it's a hard thing to describe. To strengthen your point, that's why a little on the left, a little on the left before you get to Ephesians chapter four, you have a one mystery, two mystery, three mystery, four mystery,

Four, mystery. Yeah, there's a lot of mysteries. Well, I'm fixed to reveal a mystery. So, I mean... So, my point is, though... And after watching how the humanity has come to a text like this, and if you can't get it through Ephesians, I don't know what to tell you. Well, I figured out why there's so much argument about...

This phrase in Ephesians 2, that's why I called Zach. I was like, I figured something out last night. Do y'all want me to share what I figured out? Have you found the trick on the mystery? Well, I have figured out mystery. And it's, I mean, he revealed a lot of mysteries. One, that Christ can be in you through his spirit. Yep. That's Colossians 1. Yep.

There was a mystery that he revealed in Ephesians 5 when he said he was talking about marriage between a husband and a wife. But he said, but it's a profound mystery. But I'm talking about you and the church. So that was one mystery revealed that we're actually as human beings, male and female, married to Jesus. Yep.

Another mystery was the joining together of Jew and Gentile. That's what we get to next. Several texts. That they could be one, even though one was from Israel and one was from the USA. All parts. You could actually be united as brothers and sisters in Christ. Another mystery is that you wouldn't, when you die, 1 Corinthians 15, you

You actually get a new body when Jesus comes back, but it's a changed body. That was the mystery. That's 1 Corinthians 15. Smith used to say changed, not exchanged.

Jace, you know, I always think about Job 31, which is a great text where this ancient guy says, I made a covenant with my eyes not to look lustfully at a girl. And even thousands of years ago, obviously, looking at women lustfully was a problem. And it's still a big problem today. Well, yeah, it's an illusion and it's not coming from anything good. It's a moment in your life where you're getting a distorted view of

of how our relationships should function. And it really epitomizes selfishness and a lack of productivity. You're just literally wasting your life, you know, staring at something that's

your impulses, you know, as a human being. And it leads to ruin, misery and destructive behavior. Yeah. And you're exactly right. And you said it, it's not even real. I mean, it's fake. So our good friends at Covenant Eyes have come up with a great thing to be able to help us. And it's called Victory by Covenant Eyes. Covenant Eyes is the number one trusted accountability software for the last 23 years and

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So I don't like getting theological. In fact, the last podcast we did, I was getting frustrated at Zach because he was getting over my head. And I was like, let's just...

Let's get to knowing Jesus. Because to me, that Ephesians 1, where it says he's praying that they will know him better. I mean, that's his point. You take Jesus out of any theological discussion and you lost me. Because to me, that is the way the mystery is that that's how God revealed himself. He became a human. And so what I find helpful before I reveal what I found is

Because you think, what does it mean when it says the flesh or sinful nature? Well, if you interject Jesus into this equation, why did he come? I think Ephesians 2 is a very perfect way to understand what that phrase means. Because it's a difficult phrase to define. Because

What we have in our religious world, to set up all the arguments that have come from Ephesians 2, is some people say that it is sinful to be human. So when you're created as a baby, people will say, well, you have a sinful nature. That means you have sin, even as a baby. I disagree with that.

I think you were created in the image of God. A baby is sinless. I'm just telling you what I think. But people disagree with that because they say, well, that's sinful nature. I was like, well, now once you go through age, there comes a point in time where you become sinful. So that's why it says sinful nature. It's in your nature nature.

to become sinful. And you say, well, when does that happen? When you commit a sin.

You become sinful. So it's not sinful to actually be a human. It's just that once you're a human for a while, you will become sinful. That is correct. And Jason, let me inject a thought here. And Zach, I'll ask you the question to bolster what he just said. The old Greek thinking, and I'm not sure which where that started, Aristotle, Plato, Socrates, whoever the one was.

Wasn't this the idea from ancient times that flesh was inherently bad, but the mind wasn't?

Was was was above that. I mean, in that isn't it? Hadn't this been around a long time is my question. I mean, I mean, I think what you're describing is a term called Gnosticism. Yeah, that's what that's what it's called. So I found what I would say I found last night. I didn't read this out of a book. I just found it. And I called Zach and said, look what I found. And he said, I think you're right. I found the smoking gun for what causes the argument.

And I'll get to that in just a second. But I've got to stay true to myself. I think you have to interject why Jesus became a human, or you missed. This argument is irrelevant if we take Jesus out of it. So that's what I'm going to try to do, even though my wife said, do not do this. I'm doing it.

Because I want to set it up. Well, y'all are the ones that goaded me into this. So when I read Ephesians 2, where it says, verse 5, because I believe this Ephesians 2, 5 through 18, and I'll prove it, explains why Jesus became a human. Will y'all agree with that? Yeah. Exactly.

Say that one more time. I knew you weren't listening. That's why I was listening. Before I agree, I got to make sure. Hebrews 2, 5 through 18 is a good place to go.

and figure out why Jesus became a human. That's what he's talking about. Yeah, I agree with that. So I'm going to read it just because you're like, well, Jase, you could be wrong. All right, well, let's see. Verse five, it says of Hebrews two, it is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come about which we are speaking. But there is a place where someone has testified. What is man that you are mindful of him? The son of man is

That you care for him. You made him a little lower than the angels. You crowned him with glory and honor and put everything under his feet. Now, just to say that, you know, I didn't make this up. I'm going to read where that came from. I think it's Psalm 8. Isn't that Psalm 8? Yeah, Psalm 8, 4th and 6th. Well, let's read Psalm 8 and see, is he talking about Jesus, the son of man, God becoming a man? Psalm 8.

It's not a long psalm. It says, Oh Lord, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth. Now I know one group of people or one group of inhabitants that live on earth and they're called humans. So he starts off talking about how majestic is your name in all the earth. You have...

Set your glory above the heavens from the lips of children and infants. You have an ordained praise because of your enemies to silence the foe and the avenger. When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place, what is man that you are mindful of him? So he's like, what is a human that you're thinking of him?

And he says, you made him a little lower than the heavenly beings. What would you make him to be? What does that mean? Human. You made him a human. I think we're talking about humans. Yep. And crown him with glory and honor. Humans. You made him ruler over the works of your hands and put everything under his feet, all flocks, herds, beasts of the field, birds of the air, fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas. Oh, Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth.

So back to Hebrews. So he brings that up. He made him a little lower than the angels. In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Because now he's at the right hand of God. Yet at present, we do not see everything subject to him. Well, that's...

Pretty common sense. You look around and you say, well, it doesn't look like Jesus is at the right hand of God. This place is a disaster. Talking about the earth, right? Yep. So then he goes on. But we see Jesus who was made a little lower than the angels. What's he talking about? He became a human. Okay. Now crowned with glory and honor. So a human named Jesus has been crowned with glory and honor because, now watch this, he suffered death

so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. Well, who's the for everyone? Other humans. Other humans. So he goes on. In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, he made everything, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

So what does that mean? Jesus suffered so that all other humans could be saved. He tasted death for everyone, right? Yep. Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. Well, what family is that?

Human. Human family. The one who saves people became part of our family. So when did he do that? When he became a man. Yep. He was made a man. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers. We're human. We're brotherly humans. Perfection has reached the imperfect.

Yeah, through a human. You're a human. Okay. He says, I will declare your name to the brothers in the presence of the congregation. I will sing your praise. I will trust in him. And again, he says, here I am. These are other quotes. And the children God has given me. Now, watch this. Verse 14. Since the children have flesh and blood. What does that mean? I guess you're the only one answering the question.

That means they're human. That means they're human. You're a human if you have flesh and blood. You are a human. Well, since the children have flesh and blood, he too, now look, shared in their humanity. We are talking about God becoming a human. That's why I don't hesitate next time, Zach, when I say is Hebrews 2.

Verse 5 through 18, talking about Jesus becoming a human. Yep. Okay.

So since he's sharing their humanity so that by his death, now listen to this, he might destroy him who holds the power of death. That is the devil. You say, who by the way is not human, not a human. Now, now, if you go back and read Ephesians two, one, three, this is making more sense. As for you, you who were dead in your transgressions and sins, uh,

in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. Well, there's the evil one, but Jesus came down to destroy his work amongst the humans who have bodies.

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The human has desires that come about at some point in his life in accordance with the work of the evil one, and they start doing sinful things. What is sin? Things that are in opposition to God. And all of them are guilty as charged. All guilty as charged. So back to the Ephesians 2.14. So he came, he became a human. I mean, Hebrews 2.14.

that he might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is the devil, and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. So now we have another aspect. He tasted death for everyone. Why did he do that? He suffered so that our sins could be forgiven. But now he is also, he didn't stop there. He was resurrected to show you don't have to fear death.

Because the evil one uses death as a power against humans. Right? He was a murderer from the beginning. All right, we're familiar with all this. Verse 16. For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. These were humans. For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way. What does that mean? He became a human. It's just over and over and over. That's what he's talking about.

In order that he might become a merciful and high priest in service to God, we have a human at the right hand of God who has been glorified with a new body who's perfectly flawless on our behalf to get us to an eternal relationship now and then, right? Yep. And that he might make atonement for the sins of the people because he himself suffered when he was tempted. He is able to help those who are being tempted. Who is that?

other humans. There is help available. So you say, why did I read all that? Because the arguments and misunderstanding of what that means to be a human and have a sinful nature, I think were compounded when we get to Ephesians 2, 3, because here's what I discovered. When I read that, all of us in verse 3 read,

lived among them one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature. There's our phrase that we're trying to define and following its desires and thoughts. Then the next phrase of chapter three says, like the rest, we were by nature, we were by nature objects of wrath. So here's what happened. Theologians read that and said, oh, well,

There's some people that were objects of wrath because of that nature, that sinful nature. And so then they make a jump and say, well, he created people to be objects of wrath because of their nature. But here's what I found out.

Well, that's what people say. I know, but I'm saying that's wrong because that's all of us. Well, exactly. So that's why the confusion started. So here's what I did as a not a very smart human being. I will go ahead and tell you that. I looked at this and said, I'm going to look up the Greek language for that word nature, which I assumed was the same word used in the previous sentence for

where he said, we gratified the cravings of our sinful nature. Now, most of them says flesh. Flesh. Then it says in the second part of the verse, it'll say nature. Well, I was surprised because when I looked up, and all you do to do that, and I've said this many times, is you type in Ephesians 2, 3, Greek lexicon, and you'll have all these concordance-based words

Greek, what is the word? It'll show you where that Greek word is used. If you go to Bible Hub, it says search, and you just put in Ephesians 2, 3, and then hit Greek, and it'll give you the Greek word. Well, it'll give you the Greek sentence. And sentence, that's right. Well, here's what I found fascinating. The Greek word used where it says cravings of our sinful nature or flesh, it was a different word.

Then the word, like the rest, we were by nature. That was a different word. I was like, that's not the same word. So now in my mind, what am I thinking? Well, what does he mean? He's using a different word, totally different word. So the second one where it says, like the rest, we were by nature, objects of wrath. It's only used 14 times. And I looked up all 14. It was fascinating how that word was used 14 times.

I mean, fascinating. And so just to give you a thumbnail, because we have a problem. What does this mean? What does it mean like the rest? We were by nature objects of wrath in light of what we just read. So let's just review. We all at some point, we're created. And at some point we start following the kingdom of the air and we start doing sinful things because we're humans, right? Well, then this phrase says, well,

Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. So why would he say that? Why are we now entering God's wrath because of that kind of behavior or that kind of condition, however you want to say it? Why is that now causing God's wrath to be stirred? So I looked up where this word is used in all of the other places. Well, there's some fascinating references, and I'll give you a few.

Jace, what would you say the Robertsons are known for? Because we're kind of known out there across the world. What do you think we're known for? I would say family. You know, us representing God's forever family, but as a family who prays together and rises together.

I think you're exactly right. And, you know, it's nice to have a reputation like that because that really is who we are and how much we love each other. It's one of the reasons why we love Focus on the Family so much. A great organization. It's been around a long time trying to help families be better.

And they have a podcast called Focus on the Family with Jim Daly that we highly recommend. Every episode of Focus on the Family is designed to help you guide your loved ones through the unique challenges faced today by Christian families.

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Check them out on your favorite podcast platform, or you can visit Focus on the Family with JimDaily.com and start making a difference in your family's life today. That's Focus on the Family with JimDaily.com. Trust us, you're going to love it. Yeah, James 3-7 is difficult because it doesn't use the word, the English word.

Translation doesn't translate it nation, but it's the, I mean, not nature, but it's the same word. Yeah, you do James 3, 7. All right. All kinds, and I'm assuming that's the word. Yeah. All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles, and creatures of the sea are being tamed and have been tamed by man.

But no man can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil full of deadly poison. That's the context he's talking about, the tongue. But I'm assuming you mean the kinds is the nature. In nature, all animals, birds, reptiles. That's right. So he makes a point just to, I know this is deep, but just allow yourself to go here. So you have all...

kinds of animals and reptiles and creatures of the sea are being tamed and have been tamed by man. So what does that mean? Well, we know what that means. When you take a bunch of animals and try to tame them, you're changing the nature of the animal in which he came here, right? Something's changed. Well, that kind of seems like what Ephesians 2 is talking about.

When you start following the ways of evil, all of a sudden the nature of your condition has changed because this is not what we were created for if we were created by God. God wouldn't have created us and then said, oh, now I want you to do the exact opposite of what I created you to do. Correct? Okay, that's just one.

So now, if looking in Galatians 4, 8, you got that? I got it. All right, go ahead. Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. You're like, wait, what? So we have people who are following gods that are not God. And he makes a reference saying, well, by nature, they're not even gods. And you say, well, why?

Because we made them up. People, but I just wanted to show you how he was using the word. He's using the word, or you've changed the circumstances by which this was supposed to happen. Humans are supposed to serve the living God. There's only one, to your point, Ephesians 4. There's one God, one Lord and faith. You're like, well, I'm going to go follow other gods. And Paul makes a point in Galatians, well, by nature, those are not real gods.

Are they? Just think, is there any God that actually does supernatural things besides God? Nope. No. But you say I use the word? Yep. Well, in 1 Corinthians 11, which I'll have to look up because I can't find the verse where it's used, but you had people... Here, let me look it up. So we can have a live... I'll tell you what, in the meantime, Zach, do Romans 1...

Because it's also used there when it says men exchange natural relations for unnatural. Well, that word natural is the same word. And like men, like, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another. Men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error, which really does go along the line of by nature, objects of wrath, uh,

Well, yeah, what happened? They're doing what was not intended. Right. So the one I wanted to read is 1 Corinthians 11, 14 says, does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long

Long hair, it's to her glory. Which is what's funny is my last speech, I opened up for a Q&A.

Has anybody got any questions? And somebody brought this verse up. That was the first question. Yeah, I've had emails about that, about you and dad, that you're violating this passage. My short answer was, as long as you can be recognized as a man the way God made you, I think you're good. Because that was a problem at the church in Corinth. Yeah, exactly. The last one I want to read is in 2 Peter 1.

Because this is fascinating to me. 2 Peter 1, to go in with Ephesians 2, I think you'll see the point, 3 and 4. His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. This sounds like Ephesians, right? Through these, he has given us very great and precious promises so that through them,

You may participate in the divine nature. Same word. So now what is the contrast? So I'm saying by reading all these, by that word, when he says we have become by nature objects of wrath, every one of these times that word is used in the New Testament, it seems to be contrasting

based on something changing, the circumstances changing, and we now have a new world, a new mode like the animals. When you try to tame an animal, there's, by nature, there's something different that has happened. That's how the word is used. And so here, it's actually a positive thing. Through Jesus, God, through him becoming a human, God has given us

the ability to participate in the divine nature. We've changed from our old being stooped in sin and death and under the power of the evil one. So all I'm saying is when you read Ephesians, I think if you think that word is talking about the flesh and the sinful nature that was used in the sentence,

that might allow you to go down a road that was not intended. He was just using that word to say the circumstances have changed. Something happened from the time you were born until you're wallowing in filth. Something happened. And when that process began, you became an object of wrath. So I'm saying that wasn't the...

intention by god because god verse four he he does this in love and so i think that makes it put into into light of how it should be read instead of misunderstood by saying oh well i was just created this way there's nothing i could do about it no something happened it's not my fault no what happened was you started following the ways of the world uh

You started gratifying these sinful desires and thoughts. And that's what happened. You started sinning just like every other human once they reach an age. So that was what I found. The smoking gun was that that word was a different word just used to describe the two different worlds now.

yeah i i two things well three things here one when you mentioned the verse on the women's hair i just googled this because i was interested in it i said the google was um is does a woman's hair naturally grow longer than a man's and this study popped up from pubmed from the national library of medicine and actually women this this particular study said that women do have what's called a linear

hair growth rate is higher than in normal men. And it's statistically significant in the study. So I think thinking about that, the idea goes back to what I've talked about in the podcast before, that idea of telos. What is the intent? What is the design? What is the purpose? What were we created for? And so the language here in Ephesians 2, and I'm not saying you could make a whole case on

what original sin means from this text. But my point in agreement with Jace is I don't think it's saying, I don't think it's making an argument for that. I think the argument here that Paul is making when he says that they were by nature made

Children of wrath. It's kind of the similar language in Jude 8, verse 8, which I may have mentioned in a previous podcast on this. I can't remember, but it says, Yet in like manners, these people also, relying on their dreams, defile the flesh, reject authority, and they blaspheme the glorious ones. But when the archangel Michael contended with the devil,

was disputing about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a blasphemous judgment. He said, the Lord will rebuke you. But these people blaspheme all that they do not understand. And they are destroyed by all that they, like unreasoning animals, understand instinctively. So it's almost like it's this idea that when you're in this nature of sin, when you're operating in that world,

which is kind of the idea that he's talking about here, by nature, you're heading for destruction. By nature, you're heading for the wrath of God. And so that's why that Romans 1 passage is so powerful, because what he says in Romans 1 is, he says, they are gossips, they are slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil.

disobedient to their parents. So we can't actually be like the animals completely because we have rational faculties. But what we do is we take the rational faculties to increase the instinctual desire. And when you do that, when you use your God-given ability to reason, you create and invent ways of doing evil. And the end of that road is disunity.

The end of that road is wrath. So the language of Romans 1, as I said in a previous podcast, the idea of God's wrath here, it's not that God has the barrel of wrath with the ladle and he's scooping it and pouring it on you. No, no, no. The wrath of God is being left to yourself. Like that is the wrath of God. God just said, okay, it's unleashing. And so N.T. Wright says it this way. God's wrath is not a malicious thing.

or a caprious anger, but the necessary reaction of true holiness, justice and goodness to wicked exploitation and evil of every kind. So this is where it, it heads. So then the last verse I have is in second Peter two 12, but these like irrational animals, uh,

Creatures of instinct born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction, suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it as pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes forever.

reveling in their deceptions while they feast with you. They have eyes that are full of adultery and insatiable for sin. But the idea really is that, like, I think that, like, it's actually scarier in some ways, but it's also beautiful because you gave that beautiful picture of the opposite of this. So, like, one lane is this lane. You're going to follow yourself.

You're going to go follow your own instinctual desires. And the nature of that road is destruction. And just ask yourself this question. If you just said, I'm going to follow unbridled, I'm just going to unbridle my pursuit of pleasure and passion. I'm going to do whatever feels, if it feels good, I'm going to do it. Ask yourself this question.

How long would you last? And just think about it. You wouldn't last very long if everything you wanted, you consumed and took what you wanted, like with no limit, no restriction. You just said, I'm going after it. That's the road that the natural road to that end is death and destruction to be left to yourself. The other road is the one that Jace mentioned. And was that in first Peter, Jace? No, it was second Peter.

One, three, and four. One, three, and four. Yes, the second Peter. That's the other road to participate in.

in the divine life. And what that is, is it's less about self-elevation and self-help and self-sacrifice. That's what's displayed in the gospel. And I think that's the point that he's getting to. And that's why you have in that text, you have an ascending when you get down to verse five, you start adding goodness, knowledge, self-control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, love. It's like a stairway out of

Of that nature. Well, the point is, and the point I'm trying to make is when you wrap your head around that and understand the words that he used, he's basically saying, yeah, you became a human. And then all of a sudden, at some point, you started acting like something that God is not. And you became that. And so if it just ended there, well, we'd all be depressed.

But then in verse 4, because that's when he follows that up, we were by nature objects of wrath. Why? Because we have now chosen to be our own God, to be our own self, to start acting like animals. We're not acting like God intended humans to act.

But he doesn't leave it there. He says, but because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ when we were dead in transgressions.

Key word, but. Conjunction function. Yeah, I don't think he's necessarily making a point of when a person does this in this text. I don't think that's, I think what he's, but he is pointing out. Well, I think he says follow when you followed the ways of the world. You were gratifying the cravings of the sinful nature. I think it's pretty clear that's when it happened. Yeah, but I don't think he's making a point for or against that.

a doctrine of original sin here. I don't think it has to do with that. Well, not at all. I'm saying that came in because I think somebody saw that word and said, oh, well, that was just my nature. That's how I was born that way. And I'm saying, no, it is a picture of you choosing. Yeah, there's action. Once the following of the ways of the world and the gratifying the sinful nature comes

That's when it's like trying to tame an animal where you use the phrase or you say men abandon natural relations. Man, that's not civilization comes from a man and a woman getting together. The nature of changing that all of a sudden everything's going to change. There's going to be no more humans. Yeah, my point was just that it's not for this passage. I don't think is for or against humanity.

a teaching of original sin. There are passages that we could go to and have that discussion, but I think the point here... Well, I'm saying, Zach, people go here to use that argument. Oh, I agree. Yeah, I just wouldn't make the opposite case for it, not out of this text. You know what I mean? That's what I'm saying. All right, so we're out of time, but one statement I'll make is that I'm glad we defied Missy. I think it was very interesting. And most times, as you're

your rabbit holes and deep dives have nothing to do with our texts. In this case, contextually, it was right where we were at. So thank you for that. And, uh, and next time we'll pick up from here. Cause there's some really good stuff right after that too. So, um,

We'll see you next time on Unashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast. Help us out by rating us on iTunes. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube and be sure to click that little bell to get notified about new episodes. And for even more content that you won't get anywhere else, subscribe to BlazeTV at blazetv.com slash unashamed.