Ep 918 | Phil Is Struck by the Courage of a 15-Year-Old Girl & Jase’s Life-Changing Zoom Call
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I am unashamed. What about you? Welcome back to Unashamed. We welcome, we have a couple of guests in house. Nick and Renee. They got married yesterday, so their wedding gift from me is they get to come watch the podcast. And I do want to clarify. And your father-in-law did their wedding. Really? Yeah. On the lake behind his house. Really? Yeah. He was also the one who baptized Nick eight years ago, so.

Well, I never got the memo on that. I know. I've been busy. Good things happen outside. Were y'all married for the eight years before? No. They didn't even know each other until, yeah. Good night.

Well, they just, this is a special place. You got eternal life and a woman. That's pretty good. That's a clean, sweet place. You got eternal life and a man. You talk about benefits. What's funny is we say our studio audience, it's basically one couch in a corner. Our studio audience can only be three people. So that's a love seat. It's a love seat. It's a love seat. I mean, the site here is basically a barn. Yeah. Well,

Where we're at. Yeah. It's a lot of varmints. Wasp, as we know. We talked about that earlier. You've had some. Oh, I've experienced it. There's brown recluse, black widows, the other stuff. Everything in here wants to hurt you. My call for these podcasts, and it's a tough, tough road. There's just so many of us who have marched off to this group.

go a little another group. I mean, there's like 25,000 different groups operating under one spirit. When you get to the book of Ephesians, one spirit, one, one, a whole one, which I'm trying to get people to come together. Uh,

I agree. And not be so picky on, we don't believe that. So we're not, I mean, it's just, we hurt ourselves. Right. And it's definitely been one of the great allures of our podcast is that we're not operating under any banner of a denomination or a church. We're just four guys studying the Bible. Here's what we think. I could be wrong.

Well, it's like a woman told me... I was just hoping we would come together as one. Yep. Well, a woman told me at the Faith Family Freedom event, she said, I've listened to every episode of the podcast, but my response was...

Well, bless your heart. That's what I would say. Because I thought... I would say, you don't have a lot going on. A thousand... We're actually 918. 918. This is 918. He said, well, my husband and kids who were standing there, it was a nice little family from Iowa. And she said, they make fun of me because to do that, I have y'all playing a lot in my life. Right. And so...

My husband. Four hours a week, yeah. Yeah. And she's like, so they're like, they make, you know, they kind of make jokes about it. But I was more like, well, look, we've come a long way.

from where we started. Just because we're talking about bringing everybody together. I'm like, well, I'm probably, I would be embarrassed if I listened to some of the things I've said. Jace is saying that he would already disagree with some of Jace from three years ago. Go back about episode 210 and he's like, I don't even believe that anymore. I'm positive that is true. I mean. For all of us that speak and do this for a living and do it to volunteer, we can all say that. Like,

Well, I mean, which what you're getting here is you're I mean, this is kind of a rare because what we're doing is we are actually having a open dialogue Bible study that we're figuring stuff out as we go along. Yeah. And then we're and then we're letting people look into that. So it is a little risky. But I think that that's why we always have our caveat. I could be wrong. That's right. That's that's the caveat. Last night. I mean, I've been walking with Jesus for over 40 years.

Last night I was listening to a Bible study. I was listening to a Bible study of a guy I respect, but it wasn't a class. It wasn't a sermon. It was like a, what do you call these things? They're like meetings, Zoom meeting. It was a Zoom meeting Bible study that a guy sent me to. So they were just having a discussion. But a couple of things that came out of it,

was something I had never thought about before. And so at some point in this podcast, I'll bring it out because it tied in with where we're at in the book of Ephesians. But it really was exciting, mostly because it explained a lot of things that I was unsure about on some scriptures. I thought, well, this is an idea. And it wasn't even the focal point of the Bible study. It's just one of the brothers made a comment and said,

About a verse, and it's a pretty big verse, but I thought, I have never thought about that. Which happens a lot when you study the Bible. Which, by the way, it's why Hebrews 4.12, which is one of my favorite verses, I sign that a lot when I sign stuff, is a verse that says the Word of God is living and active.

And you think about that for a minute. What does that mean? Well, that means that it constantly shapes and affects you in a way that you see something you never saw before. And all of a sudden it unlocks things in your heart and your mind that make you stronger and make you better. That's why it's living and active. The Holy Spirit wrote it through the work of prophets and people through time. And now here we are. That's a perfect illustration because I've always read that verse to mean the reason the words change.

are living and active is because it came from an actual and comes from an actual living being. Living being, that's right. Because at the end of the day, I heard a great illustration one time about this, if I can remember it. We'll pick a watch. Phil, you've never owned a watch. Never. Al? No.

Okay, let me borrow your watch. I'm going to do an illustration. We have a... By the way, Jase, this watch, since we brought it into the podcast, is an actual part of a baseball from an actual major league game. Okay, well, this will be fun. But it's kind of squirrely-like because not only do I... Squirrely-like. Take a stand on that.

I've never owned a watch. No, I know, but Phil, guess what? I think you're more smart than me, though. You passed that on to me because I've never owned a watch. But it scared me because I like watches. I like to know what time it is. When somebody says, what time is it? I'm thinking, I don't know, but you never know when it's coming. Well, see, technically, Phil, even though I've never owned a watch, you've never owned a cell phone either.

So there's a problem. You don't know what time it is. But I've never owned a watch, but when the cell phones came out, it tells you. No, it's not a problem. What it is is how to operate on planet Earth.

and you don't get carried away with everything but Jesus. I'd rather just camp out right now. Theologically, I agree. I'm saying. By the way, I admire you for that. I was just making a point that there's a clock on the phone, so if I want to know what time it is, I look at my phone. While we're here, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, the death of Jesus, I'm pointing my finger at it, the burial of Jesus, the resurrection, and then he says,

It's speaking to the sons and daughters of God. He said to them, go into the world. They did because now, you know, it's 2024.

They got this gospel. They got Jesus out there. I think the illustration I'm fixing to give is going to be your point. So let me attempt to do this. I love when dad says, while we're there, and then he takes us there. Yeah, but I hadn't got there yet. So I was going to do an illustration that I think, based on what Al said, because I don't want to lose the point. Going to the world. Phil's not going to let me talk today. Preach the good news to all creation.

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved. Yep. But whoever doesn't not do that will be eternally condemned. Eternally condemned. Eternally condemned. So those guys, did it stop in these days, in our lifetime? Did it stop? That's it. That right there? Or does that carry on? That's still going on. Still going. Still happening. So here's my point, Phil. If you took this watch...

to some place where they were not familiar with what a watch was. So that's the thing I want to point out. His dad's familiar, but he just doesn't know him well. But you're familiar. But what I'm saying is if you tried to explain this, now you could share how it all comes together and with the cogs and the face of it and you have the little –

What are we calling that? The hands. Second hand. And one of them's moving around and you can open it up. You could pop off the back and there's little cogs and things. Yeah. You could explain all those things to someone who was not familiar with a watch. I'm saying go find a primitive person. Well, when you think about it and you relate that to the Bible,

Because the same thing happens. We're talking over a thousand years of history all interlocking, and some of the great scholars in churches, they're really good at putting all these pieces together, and they could tell you the promise to Abraham and how that was fulfilled later, and you're just like wowed by all this. But my point is, you could share all that. You could do seminars with these primitive groups of people.

If they don't know what this is for, none of that would matter. You could explain how all this is working, but the number one thing is, what does this do? It tells time, which is a big issue in life. You hear a lot. Time. There's a thing called time. So that's my point about the Bible.

If it's just a book of poems and commands and there's some characters and there's history and it all works together and there was a nation of Israel, you could study that throughout your entire life. But if you never figure out, well, what was this for? What is this for? Like right now. And so that's my point. I think when you look at it like that, you conclude,

Well, this ultimately was written by God to human beings saying, I love you and I want to spend eternity with you. If you never get that, it's like you would never understand the concept of a watch if you didn't understand that it tells time. And so that's my point. That's why it's living and active because ultimately there was a purpose behind it that if you don't get, it's just a book of all kind of... Yep.

Things and stories. History and poetry. When I was asked to speak last week, I said, how many in here would like to be baptized into Christ Jesus, buried and raised? How many of you? And I looked around, and I'm looking at an audience of about 1,000. And I looked around, one 15-year-old girl. I saw her hand come up. I said, there's hope here.

they they they hope but that went before the lesson after the lesson about 15 or 20 of them yeah we baptized them on the spot we just we just moved forward and it just went right from what the the lesson you know i was just reading the text right you know go out preach the gospel to all creation whoever believes is baptized be saved

But also, Phil, most of those people that showed up, they were going to the event. Well, they've been listening to this podcast. Yeah. So they've been studying the Bible. Yep. Then look, it was kind of a design here. They hear what this is for, what I just got to say. That God came down through Jesus. And they're like, okay, yeah. It's a great thing to watch, you know, when people move from one little girl. But when it was over and we said, there you go, well.

Be like the little girl a while ago. Well, about 20 of them stepped up. I thought, hmm. Well, and this, to Jace's point, it's about this being...

that changes your life, your goals, your identity, all of it. Because I hear people say, well, my life's a mess. What's going on? Well, yeah, I need to go to church and read my Bible more. No, you need to know Jesus. Yeah. Because he's who changes everything for you. Let's take a break.

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Well, it's got to become personal. I mean, his, it's, as you're thinking, as you're reading, is the go forth and

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved. Whoever does not believe will be condemned. If you preach that, is that still going on or did that somewhere down the vine somewhere? Still going. I think we're still under what Jesus said. Great commission. Great commission. We're still commissioned. Yep. So, Jase, are you going to bounce your thing off of us or are you going to wait until later? No, it's going to be a surprise when we get there in the text. When we get there in the text, I'll let you know.

There's nothing like a Jay surprise. He's full of surprises, Dad. He is. He's got them. Surprises and suffering. That's what Jay's is full of. So what I thought we'd do is get back to the book of Ephesians. But there were a couple of things at the end. We kind of have...

spent most of our time in 1, 3 through 14. And we've had some guests on, so we've kind of had some breaks in between our study. Oh, but some people are just going right along. It's like we never left. That's right, right. They're just like following along, which is- Y'all are laughing at me, but I'm actually providing a cliffhanger. I love the cliffhanger.

Now we're going to be waiting for that surprise. And if we never get to this part. Jesus and his resurrection, that's the... That's the ultimate cliffhanger. Yeah, that's the ultimate cliffhanger. That's the one you better zero in on. So this condensed, is what I call it, just dense theology that Paul gives us in Ephesians 1, 3 through 14 says,

I compare it to taking the book of Romans and squeezing it down into just 11 verses. It's incredible. And the rest of the first three chapters as well. But there was a couple of things that we didn't mention before I wanted to do before we moved on to verse 15. And one of those was the Holy Spirit. We talked about him, but there was one word in there we never really explored. And I was looking at it the last couple of days, and I thought, man, that's such a great concept. So he says...

In verse 13, having believed, you are marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit. We never talked about that word seal. And I looked at the Greek word for it, and there's several different usages of this concept. But think about it in terms of us as people. Seals were used in the ancient world, this Greek word, for several different things. One of them was to protect or guard.

So like in Matthew 27, when you see the seal that was Roman seal that was put onto the tomb, the idea was this is under Roman authority. So you can't get into this without running into problems with the Roman government. Right. But think about that in terms of the Holy Spirit, the idea of protect and guard, which I love. Another thing was to make something official. Right.

You see this in John 6 when it talks about this word used for seal. In other words, when someone puts their seal on something, if you go into the meat market and something is stamped FDA approved, that's a seal. That says that this has been vetted, this is healthy for you to eat, whatever. So again, think about a concept of how that relates to the spirit. Well, and I like that you went with authority because it's like an image thing.

It's like when you have a certified letter, it has a seal. Or like the reason Caesar put his image on a coin. The reason it's valuable is because I'm important and have all authority. This is worth millions.

And I'll let you know how you can spend it. Exactly. And so the idea that the Holy Spirit has that role in your life, just think about the application. Well, the authority angle is a little bit of what I wanted to talk about. So this is good. We're getting there. Also seals, you think about Revelation 7, seals were used to identify. Remember the seven seals? Yeah.

And the idea of identification, each one was opened. That's another use of this word. So there's an identification that goes with it. And then the last one you see biblically, seals were used to show ownership, which is, again, this concept Jace was talking about with authority. And that'd be like if the same word is used for branding a cow.

There's a seal. And that means that this cow is owned by this ranch, this ranch or this person, whatever. So all those concepts you see throughout the Bible are the concept of this is what the Holy Spirit is. He has ownership over who we are. We identify in him. We're guarded, protected. That's that idea of Jesus talked about him being a counselor and a guide. And then also it's official.

God stamped. And I remember when we were at this little church we were at years ago and a brother got falsely mixed up in the idea that somehow you didn't ever, you didn't really get the Holy Spirit. Only the word of God had the Holy Spirit. The only access was when you were studying the Bible.

We all looked at that and thought, well, that goes against everything that the Holy Spirit seems to do. But I remember when he was preaching a sermon about it. Well, you do get it through the Word. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, but I mean, like, that's the only way you can access the Holy Spirit. And I remember his illustration, thinking about this verse, and he said, I mean...

It's crazy. You don't walk around with an HS stamped on your forehead. Do you remember that, Dad? That was his big point. He's like, well, you're not sealed with the Holy Spirit. You don't have an HS stamped on you. Your life is the stamp. And you're like, wait a minute. Well, there's a rule. He lives in us. There's a rule that I always follow when I study the Bible is never say something that's the direct opposite of an actual verse. Yeah, that's good advice.

Which was our whole point. To Kay's point, have him believe you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit. So if you heard a preacher say, now look, don't get the impression that you're actually sealed with the Holy Spirit.

You're like, wait, what? Which is what always struck me. And I didn't realize at the time I was young, but later I thought, that's exactly what it means. And all these different uses of this Greek word, that's the different aspects of how the Holy Spirit works in our lives. I mean, this is an incredible blessing and gift. Before you get into Galatians and Ephesians, if you belong to Christ, first he says,

You're all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who have been baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with him. There's neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you're all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. Yeah. Which is a promise.

Well, and then also to back to my point, you see Paul used the word spirit of sonship. And that's that idea again. That's what connects you. And think about this for I lead this. He is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession to the praise of his glory.

There's going to be a time. Makes all of us from all walks of life. Right. Together. So he's a deposit in us to connect us to the heavenly realm. But there will be a time when we're all glorified fully in the resurrection. And then the Holy Spirit won't need to indwell us because we're going to be right there with him.

Yeah. I mean, just think about that for a minute, how powerful that is. He right now is a deposit, but man, when we realize the fullness of it, we'll know what he knows. So I think I can introduce it here. I was going to wait till we got to the power, but I think the authority angle is, is really the point. Cause I think to play devil's advocate, people have the reason the guy had had a problem in my opinion of saying, you're not sealed with the Holy spirit, how he worked and all that is because he,

Well, how come Christians sin? Yeah. I thought God couldn't coexist with sin. We come up with all these narratives, which is a hard thing to explain. Would you all agree? Yeah. If you missed the Jesus part, there was that. This little comment, yeah, if you missed the Jesus part, which we have to keep reminding you, the whole chapter, Ephesians 1,

I don't know if we ever determined how many times it says in Christ, but... Well, it says that phrase 10 times, but when you say through Christ and add the others, it's almost 20. There's only 23 verses. Exactly. And almost 20 times...

He says in love, I mean, in Christ. Through Christ. Right, right. And he does say in love, which God is love. Right. So what I was going to say is, but he goes back to the time, as far as timeframe, before the creation of the world. So the little nugget,

that I was wowed with last night just in my study time. So this is it. Yeah, I'm going to give it to you. All right, hang on. We've got to take a break. We've got to drag this out for as long as possible. Let's take a break. ♪

So we're halfway through 2024. Zach, I got a question for you. How is your liver? It is functioning just fine. Ow. We're doing good, man. As far as you know. Oh, it's good. It's all good. You got some good numbers in. I did the same. Zach and I both had some high liver enzyme numbers.

Uh, when you, you know, go through your yearly wellness check and we found out, uh, what the American Heart Association, uh, knows as well, that when you have fatty liver, you have three and a half times more likely the chance to have heart failure.

It affects about 100 million Americans a year, which puts a lot of people at risk. A lot of stuff gets thrown at your liver, sort of that body filter. You've got cholesterol, alcohol, toxins, Tylenol, all these different things. In my case, it was COVID. So that's why my liver enzymes are up. So I take the supplement just to give myself an edge. Yeah. And it's helped me too because my numbers have restored back to where they were before.

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To get there, you know, the actual nugget. But what I was going to say is, because when you get to chapter two, it goes into this when we were dead in our transgressions and sins in which we used to live, when we followed the ways of the world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Well, who is that? Who is the kingdom of the air? Satanic. Evil. Satanic. Evil. Okay. This is going to be good. You're really going to like this. This is going to be good. But you notice he went back to, this all started in verse 4, before the creation of the world, God chose us in Christ. And now here we are in love.

He has sent Jesus and people can now possess the Holy Spirit. And he's like going back to the illustration of when you're outside of Christ, there's a, you're, what does it exactly say? You're when the ways of the world and of the ruler of the kingdom. Well, that's an authority thing. He has a power. There's an evil power out there, right? Correct. So here's the nugget. When I went back to Genesis one,

I'll do the nugget and then say what the context of what the Bible study was. Here's the nugget. It says, In the Lord, this is Genesis 2.9, In the Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground, trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Well,

The comment, the nugget that I'd never thought about, and then we'll back up and see why this was such an earth shattering moment for me, was this. The comment was from a very smart man that I highly respect as a scholar of the Bible who says he's not. But he said, now that good and evil didn't have anything to do with morality like we think about it. And of course, then he went on and made his point.

But he also said it had to do with power, the power to create authority. And I had never thought about that. I thought, what is he talking about? Because I've always read that. And I thought, oh, well, that means they then knew like the list of rules on what you do and what you don't do. But then he made a point that proved what he said. And this is what got me to thinking. He's like, well, every time he created something, what did he say?

Good. It's good. It's good. Well, did that have anything to do with morality, the son? No, he said it had to do with purpose. This was God's purpose, and so it was good. He made something else. This was God's purpose, so it was good. This was God's purpose, so it's good. Every time. So he gets to this, and then we think, well, was this not for God?

When you see good, if you just keep the line, you'd say, well, it was made for his purpose. And so it shows you the creator and the creation under the creator that are supposed to serve the purpose of the creator. Because he then lays the context in Genesis 2 of the purpose of the man and the woman. Here's what you're supposed to do. So what happened was once I went down this rabbit hole, I realized something.

When he said, look, my purpose here is for you to have authority. Remember, he gave them the choices to name the animals, work the garden. And even the only time he said something was not good. Be fruitful and multiply. Be fruitful and multiply. The only time he said something was not good is he said it wasn't good for man to be alone. And so...

That didn't suit his purpose. So what did he do? He created a woman. Well, this did create his purpose. Well, now I think that kind of introduced the love concept in God's purpose. And so the point being is you say, well, why was that such a game changer? Because then I realized something. God didn't create evil. Everything he created was good.

And so when you start reading James 1, that really made sense to me. It says, be clear, God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone. God has never done anything evil. He created his order. Humans were involved. And as long as everything went along his purpose, guess what? There wouldn't have been any problems. Because even though they were created moral,

They have the tree of life to sustain their life. That's right. So here's what happened. This is my rabbit hole thinking, and then y'all can tell me if I'm wrong. When Eve, well, here comes the evil one. Well, there's an evil power who obviously this has happened before. Something God has created, the evil one, Satan, in the...

angelic world, has made a decision not to function within the order of God's purpose. Correct. So what happened? A power formed inside created beings. Yep. Well, he's tempting another created being who God made for a set purpose and laid out everything and everything would have been great as long as that would have continued.

and lured, tempted, because God doesn't tempt anyone, to partake in this power of creation itself. You create, you can be God. That's why when you start reading the temptations that Satan was giving, all of a sudden he's like, well, you won't die.

Well, they didn't instantly die, so technically Satan was right. But they died because when they were driven from the garden, because they were no longer functioning within God's power, they lost access, remember, to the tree of life. And he said, you'll no longer be able to take of that and live forever. So that's what happened. So that's why when you get to the New Testament and you have all this about Jesus dying,

dethroned the powers that stood against us, the evil power. Of this dark world. Yeah, that was created within the creation by humans and other celestial beings who would not humble themselves and conform to God's power. And so when God gets the blame for that, he shouldn't get the blame for that. Never. And that's why when it says in love he did this in Jesus, because think about it.

How could you ever destroy a power that is created in creation by the creation? You would have to have something more powerful. Well, the only thing more powerful is actually the creator of the creation, which is why he came in love. And that's why it made sense because people are saying, well, why did God create us evil?

But once I quit, when I saw that little phrase. I sin as God's fault. And looked at it as a power, as an authority thing that you've decided not to live out God's purpose that he intended. And you've said, I want to be the power. Well, then it started making sense. You know why? What happened in the flood? Same thing. All these people are like, they hated each other. They have abandoned the original purpose. What happened at the Tower of Babel?

They were like, we're going to create our own place. And it's the same kind of this self-exaltation of we have the power and authority to create our own world. And so God said, okay, good luck. And what happens? Sin and death. And so that's why when you see all of this,

Talking about power, because you're going to keep saying power, power. He came to take on the powers, defeat the powers, power, power, power, authority. I was like, okay, I figured this out. Let's take another break. So, Jason, all of your treasure hunting adventures, have you ever been in places where it was hard to get cell phone coverage? Many times, and believe it or not, I've actually found cell phones with my metal detector.

They weren't mine. They weren't Phil's. They weren't Phil's. But it's like a big item, old cell phone, you know, just right up under the ground. Yeah, you can like watch the history of them when you find them. Well, our good friends at Patriot Mobile want to make sure we have dependable coverage. And the beautiful thing is they want you to do it with a company that stands for a lot of the same stuff we stand for and believe in.

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Join us and make the switch today. Patriot mobile.com slash Phil. That's Patriot mobile.com slash Phil, or you can call them at nine seven to Patriot. Good point. All right, Zach, you want to take a shot at that first? Hmm. That's good. I mean, yeah, I've always, I've heard it said this way that, that sin, a good definition of sin is a misdirected or a misappropriated or disordered love.

And I love that because so often we do view what happened in the garden as a violation of some

arbitrary list of commandments that God gave to test our loyalty, but that's not really what was going on. It is, it's disordered. It's, it's, um, here's a good word for you. Teleology that God has a purpose intent and a design for how he has created the cosmos. So everything has, has an order to it. And when we disorder that, that love that we have, when we, when we misappropriate it to something that's not him, um,

then that's where the death comes from. But in the function of it, and this is the part that's difficult to understand, God gave us the ability. We take the things that God gave us. For example, God gave us the ability to create. So we have creative capacity. It's one of the ways that we're made in the image of God. God creates and we create. Now, we don't create just like God creates because God creates out of nothing.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. That word create there, it means to create out of nothing. We take stuff that's already been made

And then we create things out of it. So I have a table right here that somebody created. Some human created this, but they didn't create it out of nothing. They went and chopped down a tree, took it to the lumber yard, took it to the mill. They made this out of a tree. This used to be a tree. This oak table used to be an oak tree. So when you're saying that, I was thinking the same thing applies to how we can create evil out of the things that God made good. Right.

But that's it. That's what it is. Because look, what you just said, Zach, because something just popped into my head. You know, probably the most uncomfortable story in the Bible happens right after the fall. You have the fall, which now I believe, and since last night, I was like, now I really think that Genesis 3, all the way through 11...

was all about the fall. Results of the fall. We want to be our own creators. Correct. And we don't want to function as part of the creation. But then in Genesis 12, well, you have the call of Abraham. And what did he do? One of the most uncomfortable stories is when God says, look, he gives them a promise, and I'm going to bless all generations through your offspring. He's 100 years old. His wife's 90. It's crazy.

But he does. There's a kid that comes out of that through the power of God. And then he asked Abraham to sacrifice him. So the reason it's uncomfortable is like, well, why would he do that? But if what you just said is true and what we're saying is true, I think God did it. And he asked him to do that because there would always be a temptation for Abraham to say, well, look at what we've created. Yeah.

And I think he had to know you've got to be willing to give him up because ultimately there's nothing you could have done to fix this. And so ultimately it was God's plan. And I think the test was you got to realize who's the ultimate creator. Are you willing to do this? Because, you know what? Because Abraham could think, well, hey, me and Sarah hadn't got together.

Well, and the evidence to what you're saying is true is when you go back and read those chapters in between Genesis 12 and Genesis 22, he gets the call. He believes the call that he's going to have this offspring that's going to be just like the stars in the sky.

And then at some point, I think it's in chapter 15, he says, man, if only I don't have any kids, if only my servant to live under your blessing, Eliezer. Remember he asked God that? And that's when God said, oh no, you're going to have a son. And then later he's still waiting. So he sleeps with Eliezer.

you know, Hagar and creates Ishmael. So he kept trying to intervene his own will and power into God's plan. And finally at the end, God says, no, this is what I told you. This is going to be the son. That's going to happen when you're at a hundred years old and he has the son. And then the kicker is, he says, now give him up. Well, here's, here's what's interesting about that. Now give him up.

And he did. He took him up on the mountain. His only son. His only son. He's going up the mountain and...

He said, I love this line that he says, me and the boy will go up the mountain and we will come back. And he says, we'll come back down. So he, and Abraham's faith, he had, he knew in this moment, even though he was going to sacrifice his son, he said, yeah, God's going to raise him up. And then when the, the son's like, where's the sacrifice? I see the wood for the burnt offering, but I don't see the sacrifice. I mean,

I mean, Abraham could have said jokes on you. You are the, you're the sacrifice. But he said, the Lord will provide. They get up there and he goes to, to, um, sacrifice his son. The Lord stops him. He sees a ram caught in the thicket. You go to Hebrews 11 and there's this interesting passage to that. Cause we don't know from, from, I think that's in what Genesis 22. Um, we don't know from that passage, um,

We don't know what Abraham was thinking in terms of his psyche. How did he rationalize this promise that God made that I'm going to make you a father of many nations, many people, through this guy, Isaac, and now kill Isaac? Because those two things seem like they cancel each other out. And we don't know exactly how he reconciled that until we get to Hebrews 11 when Paul says that Abraham reasoned

I'm sorry, the Hebrew writer says that Abraham... What does it say? Were you making a statement? You think Paul wrote Hebrew? No, I don't think that. That was a slip. We quote Paul so much. We're in Ephesians. He says Abraham reasoned that God could raise his son from the dead. And figuratively speaking, he did raise Isaac from the dead. So Abraham's... He's going into this setting...

And he doesn't know how God's going to fulfill the promise. He actually got it wrong. He didn't know that God was going to substitute with a ram. But all of that was a precursor of another substitute. Jesus would be the substitute for our sin. He would die in our place. Jesus would be the firstborn son that was sacrificed. It's all this imagery in the Old Testament. And so when you were talking... But I'm saying he couldn't have done that. The Creator would have...

would have had to accomplish this. Well, yeah, that's where I was going with it because the natural thing that happens when we sin, when we essentially, we say we're not going with the order that you've designed, God. We're going to do this on our own. Yeah, and let me give a verse for that statement because I should have said this before. Hang on before you read it. Let's take our last break.

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and said to the woman, did God really say you must not eat from any tree? Of course, they had them all but one. And the one, if you're looking at it as unleashing power that you can possess to do your own creating. Like autonomous power. Yeah, it's like you can create your own world. It's just Tower of Babel, same thing. And think of all the earthly kingdoms. What do they do? They create...

their own structures. And if you go try to take them on, just think of Rome in its heyday. And I come up there and I walk up to the wall and all I got is a big rock. And I say, you know, I'm fixed to take on this power. Well, guess what? I'm fixed to die. It's impossible for man to

Because I'm amongst the created. But that's why you have the story of David when he said, go get a stone. But what they didn't realize is he had creator. The one who's with him created all the atoms and molecules and things that you're using by your self-designated power. Well, only he could crush that.

And so my point is, I'm going down a rabbit hole here, but I'm trying to get to this verse. So when the woman said to the serpent, we may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say you must not eat from the tree that is in the middle of the garden. You must not touch it or you'll die. You will not die, the serpent said to the woman. Now here's what I want to get to. For God knows that when you eat of it, your eyes will be opened,

And this next phrase, because we skipped to the second phrase. That's where I had missed this point. I go, well, you'll know good and evil. You'll know the list of rules and what to do. No, it says you will be like God. You've now changed roles. Instead of you being the creation, you're now the creator. Correct. And what did we create?

We created a power that is sinful, that is evil. And guess what came out of it? Because you never see the qualities up until this point.

Guilt happened. Shame happened. Immediately. Fear happened. Immediately. Well, did that come from God's creative forces or did it come from the creation saying they want to be God? And here was the big lie. Verse six, when she saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye. By the way, that was said about every tree in the garden.

So it just didn't look bad. So it looked good to her. But here's the big lie. And also desirable for gaining wisdom. So many people have tried to know something and know the power of evil and tried it. The curiosity that killed the cat, they said. Because the wisdom they're looking for is this.

That's it. What is he holding out? That's exactly right. I want to know what he's holding away from me. So how many times, and to Jace's point about- Al, you're going down the same rabbit hole I went down to, because you know where I immediately went when I read this last night? James 3, which I started in James when he said, let me be clear, God does not tempt you

anyone with evil nor can he do so yep it is not so the question is who does to your point james who does tempt you where does it come from but so watch what he goes on to say in chapter three though because i when she said i saw that it was good for gaining wisdom well what does james talk about in in chapter 3 in verse 13 through 18 he talks about two kinds of wisdom one is earthly and

and one is heavenly. So on the earthly, it says, if you, verse 14 of chapter 3, if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition, well, what is selfish ambition? That's you saying, I'm God. I'm going to do whatever I want to. So watch what happens. In your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. Such wisdom, here's the phrase, does not come from heaven.

That doesn't come from God. It has nothing to do with God. It has nothing to do with his purpose. It is earthly, unspiritual, and of the devil. For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice. Evil has nothing to do with God. It came from a world within a world that God created.

And humans said, let's do it. And I can't tell you just how many people I know and have worked with through the years

That stuck their toe in the water of evil to find out what something was about. And then once immersed into that world, the power of evil chewed them up and spit them out to the point you could not recognize who that person was. That's the problem is now because we all do it. We get to that. We all have our tree of knowledge of good and evil moment. It's usually...

Somewhere right around before a teenage year or in the teenage, there's a moment where you say, oh. I got to know about this. I'm going to create my own world. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's what happens. And when you do that, just like I'm not picking on Adam and Eve. They just happened to be the first one. Well, they did the same. So now you're like, well, I tell you what, I wouldn't have done that. Well, no, we did. They still have the choice to do what God says or not. You, however, did not come to know Christ that way.

Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth sent Jesus. You were taught with regard to your former way of life to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desire, to be made new in the attitude of your mind, to put on the new self.

created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. Therefore, each of you must put off falsehoods, speak truth to his neighbor, for we're all members of one body. In your anger, don't sin. Don't let the sun go down while you're still angry and give the devil a foothold.

He who has been stealing must steal no longer, must work doing something with his hand. Don't let any unwholesome talk come out. He's showing you a life of reality. Yeah. I mean. And what we try to have a problem. I think this vein though, it brings a lot. If you look at it this way, it brings a lot of scriptures to light. Like one of them was Hebrews 2 14, where it says, since the children share have flesh and blood,

he too shared in their humanity. Because now we're getting back to Ephesians 1. This was the plan all along that God would send Jesus in the form of a human. And you say, well, why? 2.14, so that by his death, he might destroy him who holds the power of death. This power of

that came forth once humans and celestial beings decided not to submit themselves to their place in God's creation. When they wanted to have the control, this power developed. And then look, it's the same kind of terminology. And free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death, which that's what's used. That's what makes great kingdoms. What do great kingdoms of the earth do?

You either surrender to them or they'll kill you. There's no middle ground. And it's all fear, death, even in the form of Judas. You know, it made me think about Judas. You're like, why was that a fulfillment in Scripture? Because betrayal is a power of human creation. It's not of God. Yeah.

He's all about love and relationships and bringing people together. And he said, my promises are true. You never have to worry about me betraying you. Yeah, so guess what? He dealt with that too. Nailed it to the cross. No, it's good stuff. Well, we're out of time, but I think I like the nugget.

Was it a good nugget, Zach? Yeah, it was a good nugget. Well, I had a good close. Hold that. That's going to be a good open. Your close will now be our open the next podcast. We end this cliffhanger with another cliffhanger. Yeah, let me just say, go listen to at least the first 10 minutes of the next podcast because I'm going to close this one with the opening of that one. We will open the next podcast with Zach's closing. We'll see you next time on Unashamed. Thanks for listening to the Unashamed podcast.

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