YouTube Creator and Cookbook Author: Rosanna Pansino
59:47 Share

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to How I Built This early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. This is it. We've got an Amex Platinum Pro on our hands, ladies and gentlemen. We haven't seen anyone relax like this before in the Centurion Lounge. Is he connecting to complimentary Wi-Fi? Oh my, look at that. He is.

And you will not believe where he's going next. The Amex dedicated card member entrance for the win. Unbelievable. When you get travel perks with Amex Platinum, you're part of the action. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms apply. Learn more at AmericanExpress.com slash with Amex. Take your business further with the smart and flexible American Express Business Gold Card. It offers flexible spending capacity that adapts to your business.

You can also earn up to $395 in annual statement credits on eligible purchases at select business merchants. That's the powerful backing of American Express. Terms apply. Learn more at americanexpress.com slash business gold card.

So when I travel frequently, I will need the drugs prior to usual. And I have ultimate confidence that I will get them due to this service. That's David, a CVS Caremark member. Experiencing how CVS Caremark makes access to medications part of his story.

The same way they help every member get the prescriptions they need, when and how they need them. Just like David's pharmacy care representative who helps schedule refills around travel. So David can see the world with less worry. Go to cvs.co.stories to learn more and see all the ways CVS Caremark can help create an even better member experience.

That's cvs.co slash s-t-o-r-i-e-s.

Hey, it's Guy here. And before we start the show, I want to tell you about a super exciting thing. We are launching on How I Built This. So if you own your own business or trying to get one off the ground, we might put you on the show. Yes, on the show. And when you come on, you won't just be joining me, but you'll be speaking with some of our favorite former guests who also happen to be some of the greatest entrepreneurs on earth. And we're going to be talking about how to build a business that's

And together, we'll answer your most pressing questions about launching and growing your business. Imagine getting real-time branding advice from Sunbum's Tom Rinks or marketing tips from Vaughn Weaver of Uncle Nearest Whiskey.

If you'd like to be considered, send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. Each week, we'll pick a few callers to join us on this show. You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com or you can call 1-800-425-7000.

433-1298 and leave a message there. That's 1-800-433-1298. And that's it. Hope to hear from you soon. And we are so excited to have you come on the show. And now, on to the show.

When I first started, the algorithm on YouTube was very light. So the growth that you experienced on YouTube in the very beginning was much more natural. Now, fast forward a decade, the algorithm is very heavy.

It has certain metrics that you have to hit or it won't show your own videos to your own audience. So for me to stick around on the platform for over 11 years, I've had to adapt a lot to the algorithm, not my community, the algorithm. Welcome to How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built.

I'm Guy Raz, and on the show today, how Rosanna Pansino gave up her acting career to go all in on YouTube and built one of the platform's most popular cooking shows, Nerdy Nummies.

My kids have become really good cooks. And I'm not even saying that as a proud and clearly biased parent. They actually make food that is delicious. That being said, they do leave the kitchen a disastrous oil-slicked mess. But let's not distract from the story. The reason why they are so good and why lots of kids have suddenly become great at making things like fried chicken or ramen...

is largely because of social media. There are thousands, possibly millions of people on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok that make food and show everyone else how to do it as well. In fact, I have a friend, a graduate of a fancy culinary school, who recently told me he thinks he could learn almost everything he learned in cooking school from YouTube. Now, that might be a slight exaggeration, but only a slight one.

Food and cooking is big business on social media. Many of the biggest food celebrities now come from YouTube. All this month, as many of you know, we've been looking at the business of content creation. And if you haven't heard our episodes with Rhett and Link or Mark Rober from the past few weeks, go back and check them out.

This week, my guest is Rosanna Panzino. She's actually an OG YouTuber. She started posting cake-making videos around 2010. Like most of the YouTube entrepreneurs we've been talking to this month, Rosanna had no intention of turning her channel into a business. In fact, at the time, she'd moved to Los Angeles to try and break into Hollywood. But to pass the time in between auditions...

She would film herself baking and decorating cakes and treats inspired by comic book and video game characters. She called her show Nerdy Nummies, and eventually it got really big.

Her videos to date have received over 4 billion views, and the channel now has over 14 million subscribers. And out of all of this, Rosanna's built a robust business that includes cookbooks, a line of cookware, merchandise, and brand partnerships. But even with all of that, as you will hear, she's become a bit disillusioned with the platform that helped turn her into a celebrity.

These days, Rosanna feels like YouTube has changed its business model to make it much harder to grow and scale unless you're willing to pay for it. And we'll get to all of that as well. But for now, Rosanna Panzino grew up in Seattle. Her dad worked at Boeing and her mom was a medical technician before stepping away to take care of the family. And as a kid, Rosanna loved spending time in the kitchen.

Yes, I loved baking. I think growing up, my parents kind of gave us like functional hobbies that we could choose from because when we were growing up, we didn't have a lot of money. So the hobbies that we could pick had to be ones that were affordable. And also I call them functional hobbies because they also help the family. So they were like hobbies like...

cooking, baking, gardening, or sewing. And I loved baking the most because I had a sweet tooth.

And so I just I loved baking with my grandma and my mom. And yeah, that was kind of my little hobby growing up that I kept throughout my entire life. So, Rosanna, I know you went to college at Pacific Lutheran University, which is in Seattle, I think, or near Seattle. Yeah, Tacoma, right below. Yeah. And when you got there, did you have a sense of what you thought you wanted to do when you got to college? No. No.

So I went to college and I just I asked my counselor, what's the easiest degree I could get? Because I was dyslexic and she said communication. So I said, fine, that's my that's my major. And you also got into theater, I think, in college, right? And even high school, too, like you took a bunch of drama classes. Yeah, I thought that might be good for me. And so I tried it and I just didn't.

I accidentally fell in love. I just got bit by the acting bug or entertainment bug, whatever you want to call it. Like, I felt like I was home.

And we put on the musical performance Grease, where I was the lead character, Sandy. Wow, you were Sandy. I loved it. Oh my God, my heart was exploding. I finally found something that it was the first time in my life where someone said, you're good at this, but I think it scared me. And I think...

My logical brain and all the scientists in my family, I just thought the likelihood of me working in entertainment, and I'm so close with my family, I really never saw me moving away from them. And I never, I just, it was always just stayed as this just beautiful dream that I, like a surreal fantasy that existed, but not for me.

So at what point, I mean, given that you had this sort of practical, right, outlook, which is that it's really hard to break into acting professionally. I mean, I've interviewed hundreds of actors. I have another show called The Great Creators and so many of those actors, they got lucky. Even Tom Hanks has talked about this. You know, you start out and sometimes you get lucky, but many times you just don't, right? Yeah.

What was the catalyst? Because you decided to move to Los Angeles, I think, pretty soon after college. What was the reason that you thought, okay, I'm going to try this out. I'm going to go for it. I don't know if this is motivational or if it's depressing. But it was after college is right when the economy crashed. And right when I graduated college with this brand new degree.

There was a hiring freeze everywhere. Yeah. So I was, I had to pick up work. I was working. I was a waitress off and on for eight years. I tried bartending. I was a dog sitter. I worked as a church secretary. I worked as a go-go dancer. I did anything I could. What's a go-go dancer? Yeah, a go-go, like at a nightclub. This is not like a...

You were safe, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, okay. Yeah, like my workday starts at 10 p.m., and then I would dance on like a platform stage. It was like 15 feet in the air, and I would just two-step. I would just—the listeners can't see what I'm doing, but it's just a two-step, side to side. But I was working a ton of jobs in Seattle. I was starting to get really unhappy. Yeah.

I never got fired from many of my jobs, but I just kept hearing weekly feedback of how bad I was. And it started to take a toll on my self-esteem. Like I would go into these weekly meetings and they would say, Ro, you're messing up the schedule. You're putting the wrong dates, the wrong times. And these are jobs, just to clarify, what kind of jobs are they? This one was, I was an office manager at a church where I was hired to work.

run the entire office and pastor's calendar and develop a website. It's basically running a nonprofit. I started to do all that and I just was terrible at it. I mean, I really loved...

I love people and I love working with them. Very social. Yeah. But I am dyslexic, so I probably am not the best person to be running your calendar. Yeah. I think at a certain point you decided to go back to acting and see if you could maybe like get something in film or TV. And I think you actually wound up getting a small gig, right? Yeah. Yeah.

I volunteered on a set of Star Trek Phoenix. It was the largest fan fiction series being made in Seattle. It aired on TV. News got Como News 4, did a big segment on it. And then I still have that video footage clips. I think they're like on a burned CD I kept. And an agent in California saw it and called me and said, if you move here, I'll take you as a client. And I said, done deal. I'm out of here.

And it was like a fan fiction show that aired locally in Seattle? Mm-hmm. Right. Okay. And, all right, so you moved to L.A. to become an actor. And tell me what, I mean, that is a life of just going to audition after audition after audition. Tell me what it was like when you got to L.A. Is that what you started to do? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I auditioned for everything. I took every oddball job possible.

So I just said yes to everything. I did photo shoots. I was a hand double. That's how I became Union. I joined SAG because I was a hand double full time on the show Ghost Whisperer for Jennifer Love Hewitt, who played her son Aiden on the show. I have little boy hands. So when you see close-up shots...

Wow.

So what were these gigs that you were getting, you know, the hand double or and you were a background actor on Glee. And were those, you know, jobs helping you at least pay your rent? Yes. So I worked on Glee for the first two seasons of the show. And I was just in this very...

interesting position where I was a cheerio cheerleader, like a union dancer. I was, you know, a union actress and I was not a main character. I was no Meryl Streep, but I was a working actor. So, all right. So you're in L.A. and you're doing these

these parts, just sort of whatever part you could get. And I guess around 2010, you decided to start a YouTube channel. Tell me how that came about. Why did you decide to do that? So,

I was encouraged to start YouTube from my now partner, Mike Lamond. And you met him in LA? Yeah, and I met him in LA at a gaming convention, and I had no idea what YouTube was. I didn't grow up with YouTube. I didn't, had never, you know, it didn't exist when I was in high school. It had only been around since 2006. Yeah, I just was like, what is that? And I was working... But you were a gamer. You were a video gamer. Yeah, I love playing video games for fun. And so we met at a gaming convention, and he did YouTube, and...

I'm just a social butterfly and I meet a lot of people in entertainment doing fun things. And he encouraged me to start YouTube. And I was like, well, what if I, you know, I like to bake, I want to get more comfortable on camera. And he said that would be great for that. Like it's a, it's a great tool to practice being more comfortable on camera and have a creative outlet. So I did and I loved it. I fell in love with it.

Yeah, tell me how you – I've seen your first video or maybe one of your first videos, but you didn't start with baking videos right away, right? No, I started vlogging. At the time, vloggers were very –

That was kind of the norm. So I would film going to a flight museum or going to a flight lesson or whatever I was doing that day. And then one day I was baking. One day I was baking these cute cakes for an E3 party we were hosting at our house with a bunch of gamers. And I thought, well, let's film it. And that was basically my first Nerdy Nummies. And that was the first time the online community was like, we love this. Like no geeky baking show exists.

on television, online. It just, please do more of this. And so I said, sure. And did you like, I mean, at the time, I mean, you know, I mean, iPhone cameras are around. Were you just using like your smartphone camera at the start? Oh my gosh. So I was using, what did I use? I used an $80 flip camera.

which I don't think they even make anymore. My mom got it for me at Target. That was my Christmas gift. And the quality was so bad. So you started with just video vlogging, but you decided, I guess, this one video you baked, like, I've seen it. It's like the star from Super Mario Brothers. You baked a cake in the shape of the Super Mario Brothers star.

Was that one of the earliest cooking videos you made? Yeah, that was, I think that was the first. That was the first one. Baking video. And then I made little mushroom, like one up from Mario with the red and the green design top for cupcakes. Everyone really enjoyed it. We had a great time and

And I guess, I don't know, the interwebs loved it as well. Yeah. And that's what I love about that video is, and even many of your earlier videos, baking videos, is you're clearly not a professional. Like, you're very good and you make these fun cakes. But, like, you see how, like, as a viewer, you can imagine yourself making them. They're not perfect. They're not like those perfect cakes you see now on Instagram. They're

they used a Ziploc bag to pipe the frosting and it wasn't a perfect, but it did look like the star from Super Mario Brothers. And now, this is 12 years ago, this video came out, it has almost nine million views,

But at that time, and YouTube wasn't what it is now, it did pop, right? I mean, people found out and saw it. Yeah, I think it was... I think people liked the idea for a lot of reasons. I think that they liked that it was very approachable. I think that...

Like that video, I had never worked with fondant before. It's very tricky. And I just went for it. You had to roll it out and then just like stretch it over the cake. Yeah. And I made mistakes. I had tears. I, you know, and I just let people see my whole process because I just, I don't know. I like, I loved baking and I wasn't really embarrassed by not being perfect. And yeah,

I learned a lot as I went. So, all right. So you do this video and it's cool and people like it. And when you saw the reaction to it, did you immediately think, you know, I need to maybe this is where I need to lean into. Like I should focus on this.

That's a great question. And I wish I was quick enough and smart enough to think like that, but I was really just going with the flow. Yeah. And for a while, every week I would check in with this community that started to naturally grow and form on my YouTube page.

and just see what they wanted more of. And it was a lot of geeky baking. They really enjoyed that. And so I did too. And I thought this is a great, cute community that is forming. Like, let's do more of this. And I started leaning into that and having more fun. All right. So basically you start just making videos, right? And I think pretty soon after you, did you name it Nerdy Nummies pretty soon after that first video?

I honestly think my community was like, "Bro, this has become like a web series. It's become like a show. It needs a name." So I just came up with all these ideas and I landed on Nerdy Nummies. I also thought geeky goodies. I like alliteration, so I was playing with all these words. But I really like Nerdy Nummies because in high school, people called me a nerd.

So I thought that was kind of bringing power to the word. And then nummies, because it was like nom-nom and nummies, and that was kind of just little things I would say when I wanted a snack or something. - I know that you started to post weekly videos within, I think, about a year of this. And you really started to see that people are watching them.

But I guess at a certain point, I mean, you had an agent in Hollywood and at some point the agent was like, hey, you really need to choose between YouTube and television. Why did he say that to you at the time? At that time, new media was really emerging and I think it scared traditional media away.

I think that they didn't understand what it was. I think they were a little bit threatened by it. I think that they just really didn't have a grasp of it. And I think they were nervous of change. And I think my agent really, it felt like either or is what the climate was. Like you cannot do both. And yeah,

I remember being brought into the meeting in person. They gave me an ultimatum and said, you have to choose. You know, you have to stop making YouTube videos or we're going to drop you. And I just begged with them. I pleaded. I told them that YouTube is an amazing tool. It's helped my confidence. It's helped me become a better producer, like understand how videos come together. And they could not get past it.

I even reminded them that the only commercial I booked that year was a big Sony commercial, had great residuals. And I told them,

I only booked that because the casting director's daughter was a fan of my YouTube content. Oh, you got into it. You were in the commercial. Yeah. And this was an amazing gig for me that I wouldn't have got had I not had the YouTube channel. And I told them I think they're being short-sighted. I told them I think the future is digital. And I just begged and pleaded with them to see my perspective. And I got a letter in the mail two weeks later and they just dumped me.

When we come back in just a moment, Rosanna gets to fantasize about seeing those agents one more time and saying the very sweet words, I told you so. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This. I love a good deal as much as the next guy, but it has to be easy. No hoops, no tricks.

So when Mint Mobile said you could get wireless for $15 a month with the purchase of a three-month plan, I called them on it, but it turns out it really is that easy. I was able to set it up in minutes. The website is super simple, and the whole process was seamless. And you get an amazing service for a fraction of the price the other guys charge. To get started, go to mintmobile.com slash built. Right now, all three-month plans are only $15 a month, including the unlimited plan.

All plans come with high-speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. You can use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts.

To get this new customer offer and your new 3-month premium wireless plan for just $15 a month, go to mintmobile.com slash built. That's mintmobile.com slash built. Cut your wireless bill to $15 a month at mintmobile.com slash built. $45 upfront payment required, equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first 3-month plan only. Speed slower above 40 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees, and restrictions apply.

Seamint Mobile for details. Are you looking to hire? What exactly are you looking for? Well, whether you need to hire a civil engineer in New York, a pediatric nurse in Nebraska, an attorney in Colorado, or even a mascot in Michigan, you need ZipRecruiter. ZipRecruiter finds qualified candidates fast for all kinds of roles. And right now, you can try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash built.

You can even use ZipRecruiter's Invite to Apply feature to send a pre-written message to your favorite candidates, encouraging them to apply sooner. From accountant to zoologist, ZipRecruiter makes hiring faster, easier. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day.

Try it for free at this exclusive web address, ziprecruiter.com slash built. Again, that's ziprecruiter.com slash built. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire.

When it comes to ensuring your company has top-notch security practices, things can get complicated fast. Vanta automates compliance for SOC 2, ISO 27001, HIPAA, and more, saving you time and money. With Vanta, you can streamline security reviews by automating questionnaires and demonstrating your security posture with a customer-facing trust center.

Over 7,000 global companies like Atlassian, Flow Health, and Quora use Vanta to build trust and prove security in real time. Our listeners can claim a special offer of $1,000 off Vanta at vanta.com slash built. That's V-A-N-T-A dot com slash B-U-I-L-T for $1,000 off.

Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's around 2012, 2013, and Rosanna has basically been fired by her Hollywood agent because she's not willing to walk away from her growing cooking channel on YouTube. I knew because of my friends on YouTube that it was possible to earn income creating content online.

So I gave myself a year to figure it out. I had a lot of savings. And how were they doing it at the time? Do you remember? Just through native ads that they would get a little bit of money from? Yeah, there was a little bit of ads. There was also in-person events or meet and greets. Yeah, or like panels about creating content that they would get as gigs.

Some of my friends did like motivational speaking. Some of them, like Mike, my manager and boyfriend today, he was a gamer online. And for a long time, you couldn't monetize gaming online. And so he would travel, he would game to create content. But then he was a professional video game caster, basically like an announcer online.

You know, if you're watching a baseball game, the sports announcer who's kind of, you know, narrating what's going on on the field, who's up to bat. So I knew that there was some cool stuff you could do and there was some flexibility and people did tours and meetups and

Um, one of the around this time, I mean, you were some of your videos, I've seen a lot of your videos. And I mean, some of your most successful videos, you know, started around this time, like my little pony cupcakes. Yeah. You made a rainbow cake like a

with like a unicorn on top. And it's beautiful. It's so cool with like a rainbow, different layers and different colors. So how would you just kind of walk me through how you would kind of come up with an idea? Because you were doing this every week. Yeah.

So I got inspiration from everywhere. Like fans would suggest things. My family members would suggest things. I would see like different ideas. I'd be watching different shows. I started to have to define what's nerdy because people are like, why are you making My Little Pony things on nerdy nummies? Isn't it just video gaming? And I thought, well, I think

Thinking of all the things I got teased, you know, growing up, why I was considered nerdy. And one of them was because I was a teenager who enjoyed watching cartoons. So I included a lot of series like that.

Walk me through what it takes or what it took at the time to make one video. Because I imagine it was just you, right? Because you didn't have any money to have anybody else. And you would make, like, I don't know, a rainbow cake. Like, how much time did it take from start to finish when that was posted onto YouTube? I was extremely inefficient when I first started creating content.

I would bake something start to finish and I would be up for days doing it. And we'd have to wear the same outfit three days in a row because baking at home for yourself is

is so much faster than it is baking for camera and trying to film all the angles and things. And so I learned as I went and I also learned by going on to other professional foodie sets and I learned that they prep bake in stages for camera. And again, it was just me

So it took me about, to do one video was about 70 to 80 hours a week. I would come up with an idea, sketch it out, and then I would get the ingredients, develop a recipe. And weeks that I didn't have time to develop a recipe, I would just use a box cake because I really, in the beginning, focused on decorating. And then I would plan out all the stages and try to prep bake every stage so that I could just easily switch them in and out of camera and not waste time.

camera time and filming time because at the time I had a bunch of roommates and I took up the whole kitchen and I felt like I was just in the way all the time. So I tried to become more efficient to even just get out of their way.

And you would just, you would set up a, like a camera on a tripod and just hit record and then run, run in front of it and start talking to it? Pretty much. Yeah. Or Mike would film on my, you know, my really crappy flip camera. We used that for a while. I had these really awful yellow lights that, you know, made my whole, I looked orange. Like it was just like kind of learning and adapting as I went. I got feedback from the community like, hey, you need better lights.

And I'm like, okay, what lights? And they actually, my community helped me become a better content creator because I would ask like, what kind of light should I get? Or what kind of sound equipment should I find? And they were amazing and helpful and wanted to see me grow. And we built together.

Rosanna, as you were putting all this time and effort into making the videos, I've seen, as I say, a lot of these early videos. What was the first time that you got some kind of partnership or sponsorship or some money from making YouTube? Do you remember? I remember the first time I started to make videos.

on YouTube was when they rolled out with their monetization program. I applied for it. And then I remember I got my first paycheck from YouTube. I don't even remember the amount, but it was very low, but I was so excited. And then my first brand deal happened

I don't exactly remember because in the beginning they were not common and communities really discouraged talent from...

doing partnerships. Like if you were to partner with a company, even a company that you loved and used all the time, and you were to partner with them and talk about them, your community would just be like, sell out, screw you. And they would unsubscribe. So in the beginning, I turned down over 90% of brand deals that were brought to me and some of them very high paying, but it just wasn't worth it to me

This community just started growing and it started building and they trusted me. And we had this like, it was just so cool. I just didn't want to do anything to break that trust. It's so interesting because today it's completely different. I mean, it's you just assume that most YouTubers are trying to get sponsors and brand deals and that and that viewers don't really care. But back in 2013, 2014, you

Your audience really didn't like that. And so you had to be really mindful of how much commercialization you had on your channel. Yeah. I mean, even this is kind of unrelated, but Mike's channel, Gaming Games,

They would rip you apart if you put your face in the lower corner of the screen. Wow. This is way back in the day gaming history. Which is what gaming streaming is now. Right. It's normal and natural now. But back then, the community would be like, oh, why do we need to see your face? Are you just trying to get famous? Blah, blah, blah. And they would rip you to shreds and they would destroy your channel. They would completely unsubscribe and move on. Yeah.

The integration to integrate any kind of business had to be very slow, natural, and it had to be a perfect fit. Tell me how you started to think about expanding because you've got this channel that is just like it's a flywheel. It's just growing and more people are coming to it. So clearly there were going to be things you could do around it, extensions, brand extensions. And one of the first obvious things you did was a cookbook.

So how would you start to evaluate what to pursue and what not to pursue? So when my channel started to grow, I needed some more help. And WME reached out, William Morris Endeavor, the agency, and I took a meeting there. And I was a little hesitant to work with an agent again after what had happened before, but...

We just kind of came up with a game plan. And so a lot of interest for a cookbook. That was the first opportunity that came in. And that was actually a suggestion from my community. So I felt comfortable kind of exploring that option because it wasn't a turnoff for them. It seemed like this is something they really wanted and they felt like would create value. So I said, let's do it. It became a New York Times bestseller and

Then we ended up making another one.

Talk to me a little bit about how you started to bring on sponsors and advertisers that were not the commercials that just run on a channel, but that you were bringing on to the channel. Because earlier you talked about how initially the audience didn't like that, but at a certain point you were able to do that. You

How did that come about? I think they kind of came up organically. Yeah. You know what? One of the first ones was I love coffee.

Love Starbucks. I grew up in Seattle, home of the original Starbucks. And my friend said, wouldn't it be funny if we tried a bunch of different drinks on the Starbucks menu? And I said, yeah, that'd be really funny. Let's do that. So I did that as a video that was not sponsored. That was just, we were just doing that for fun. Just something we enjoyed doing. We thought would be entertaining, but also a little educational. Like we're giving some feedback of

you know, it's kind of like a food review, like what we like, what we don't like and why. And Starbucks saw the video and they loved it. And they actually contacted my agents and said, would she be willing to basically partner and do the same thing like for seasonal drinks? And I was like, I would love that because that's naturally a piece of content that I would make on my own.

And so it was just this perfect meld, like a perfect fit. Um, and that was the same with a bunch of brands, uh, especially when you're working in food, there was a lot of brands that I was using cause I love those brands. I've used them for years. And so the brands that I was using started to reach out, um, and asked if I'd like to partner or integrate. And, um,

So basically all of my advertising and things happened very organically, slowly and naturally. Yeah. Help me understand how you started to, you know, I mean, as your channel was getting bigger and bigger, right?

And you started this just as kind of a fun project as an amateur baker. You actually decided to hire a professional baker to kind of up your game a little bit. And this was, I guess, a professor or teacher at Cordon Bleu, one of the cooking schools. Why did you do that? I mean, part of your appeal originally was that you were an amateur. Yeah.

And what you were making could be made by people watching. So how did you decide to sort of step it up to that next level? I remember I was on a panel with some professional chefs. And we were getting asked questions from the audience about our training and our background. And they had all gone to very fancy food schools, culinary schools, restaurants.

And I was just self-taught and taught by my grandma, my Italian grandma who bakes. And I felt like I wasn't good enough to be on the panel. And I also got a few in private, and I won't say who it was, but some of the guys from the panel said some really mean things to me about just being an amateur. And it made me feel like

Okay, well, if I am creating so much food content and recipes, maybe I should, I don't know, go back to school. I mean, I don't know what to do here. So yeah,

I actually, a friend suggested that I work with a food producer, professional food producer and food producers in the industry. They are, have tons of training. And the one I worked with was a teacher at Cordon Bleu. And the good news is, is that everything grandma taught me was correct. So that was the good news. The food producer, she was like, walk me through how you'd make a ganache. And then I showed her and she goes, this is correct. This is all correct. This is perfect. Blah.

Bellissimo, we love it, chef's kiss. But she really taught me the science behind what I was doing. Like my grandma would say, you know, bring the cream on the stove to a scald, not a boil. A scald is when the bubbles start to form all the way around the outside of the pot, not the bubbles in the middle, just the bubbles around the outside. And then once you get a scald, that's the perfect temperature. You take that cream off and you pour it over a bowl of the chocolate melts.

And then you let it sit for one minute, then you mix it up. And that process is called emulsification. You know, you'd learn that in culinary school, but I never knew the science behind what I was doing. But I now have the vocabulary to match the years of skill.

Rosanna, one of the things that I think is really interesting is you and that natural kind of fit is your collaboration with cooking like baking tools. Right. Wilton is a brand that you collaborated and you launched like a line with them in 2017. So help me understand like a little bit about how you were established.

managing the sort of the business of Rosanna Panzino, right? You had you had WME as your agent. And I know Mike, who is your life partner, but also a professional partner was involved. And then you had to start bringing on people, your staff was as big as 12 people. Now it's a little smaller, but presumably you hired a camera person and an editor like you couldn't do those things anymore.

Yeah. I had to identify things that were our bottleneck that were slowing us down. And my editing was a bottleneck because I'm not the best editor. And I'm like, boop, boop. I'm like, you know, two pointer fingers at it.

Just I tried to hire people. The first hire we did was a full-time editor, which allowed us to make more content. And then a food producer, an assistant. My sister started working for me full-time. I read that a little bit about because you start the channel in 2011, and we'll get to the 10-year mark in a moment. But

2019 was a particularly challenging year for you. You lost your dad that year, and you also had a – you were hospitalized with an infection that year. Can you tell me a little bit about – because I think you were still posting videos every week that year. Yeah, yeah. How were you doing that year?

I still don't even know how I was doing that. I think I was just on autopilot and grief is such a weird thing. It's, I honestly, I took two weeks off and I thought, okay, for these two weeks, I'm going to grieve. I'm going to cry. I'm going to feel all the feelings. I'm just going to go there. And during those two weeks, I couldn't, I, I was in a zone where I was planning my dad's memorial. I was, you know,

filling out the paperwork with the state for the death certificate. And I really took on the leadership role. So I think I just kept going and going and going until...

I couldn't. And then I took time away for a little bit and have some time to heal and some time for myself. But I was really surprised and I learned a lot about grief. I had never lost a parent before. And I just, I thought you could schedule feelings and you can't. Yeah. Yeah. I know this after you took some time, I mean, this was around, I guess around 2021 and it was, it was a 10 to 10 year anniversary basically of you launching the channel and

And I think you'd essentially posted, you know, more or less something every week. And I was thinking about this. It's really hard to do. I mean, I've posted at least one to five episodes of a podcast for the last 10 years every week, no matter what. Yeah. You know, and it just becomes part of your routine. You don't even think about it. And it doesn't mean you can't, like, take some time off and go on a vacation. You have to do a lot of things in advance. But...

But it is it becomes something where your audience expects it. You're you are you're like committed to to serving them. Right. Is that was that what kept you motivated to continuously post every week? I think for me, we had just built this bond.

beautiful community, like this relationship together. And I didn't want to let anyone down. I didn't want to not show up for them. I just really like being a long-term relationship gal. That's who I am. I want my community to know that that's, you know, I'm always going to be here.

So in 2021, you got back into – I mean, you'd done some television appearances, but you got back into TV in a formal way with Max, the HBO channel. You did a show for one season called Bakedopia. Mm-hmm.

And you've gone on to do other limited series and runs with other partners. Is that sort of the direction you're – because you started in wanting to go into that world and then you really grew this business around YouTube. And I wonder whether part of you is sort of – was or is kind of shifting direction.

or wanting to go back into kind of mainstream TV? Not exactly intentionally. I think what kind of started to happen over the years is that traditional entertainment

...wasn't as fearful of new media anymore. I think that they really understood... ...one, there's a ton of different options now... ...for digital distribution. There's how many? Netflix, Hulu, and every network. ABC, Peacock, Amazon Prime. But I think that faded. And I think they started to really open the door... ...to digital content creators... ...to digital producers, to digital talent...

And I wish I could tell my old agents like, see, see, see, look, look, look. So there's this beautiful crossover that's just in the last few years have started to happen. And I've done two shows on Food Network now. I did a Nickelodeon show, a Disney show. I did a role on NCIS. Just kind of putting my feelers out there for anyone who's open to trying something to make something with me. And

Just kind of, I don't know, feeling it out. Tell me what the status of Nerdy Nummies is because I feel like I've noticed you haven't posted those videos as much recently. I love Nerdy Nummies. I love making baking tutorials. They are – I would make them until I'm 90.

And I probably still will. They just won't come out as regularly as I'd like unless I find a billionaire backer who is just like to finance all my food shows. Because that's expensive to produce, right? Very expensive to produce. Food shows, a lot goes into them that people don't realize how many hours goes into the prep work. And it really is a huge challenge.

Like when Martha Stewart was doing her, you know, cooking show, she had seven full-time chefs producing that show. And it's just hard to do. And now when I first started, the algorithm on YouTube was very light. It probably had a couple hundred lines of code.

So the growth that you experienced on YouTube in the very beginning was much more natural. It was organic. People would find your videos and share them and your community would grow very organically. Now, fast forward a decade and the algorithm is very heavy. There is millions of lines of code. They write so many lines of code into that thing every day.

And now it is extremely sensitive. It has certain metrics that you have to hit or it won't show your own videos to your own audience. It just breaks my heart because YouTube used to be people's choice. It was like if you were on YouTube and you were creating content, the people chose who they wanted to watch. The people chose who was popular. That was I'm people's choice. I'm not the algorithm choice.

When we come back in just a moment, how Rosanna builds a business strategy to fend off the tyranny of the algorithm. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This.

How I Built This is sponsored by ADT. ADT spends all of their seconds helping protect all of yours because a lot can happen in a second. Like, one second your baby can't walk and then suddenly they can. One second you're happily single and then the next second you catch a glimpse of someone and well, you're no longer single. Maybe one second you have a business idea that seems like a pipe

pipe dream. And the next, you have an LLC and a dream come true. And when it comes to your home, one second you feel safe, and the next, even if something does happen, you still feel safe, thanks to ADT. After all, ADT is America's most trusted name in home security. Because when every second counts, count on ADT. Visit ADT.com today or call 1-800-ADT-ASAP.

Have you ever covered a carpet stain with a rug? Ignored a leaky faucet? Pretended your half-painted living room is supposed to look like that? Well, you're not alone. We've all got unfinished home projects. But there's an easier way. When you download Thumbtack, it's easier to care for your home from top to bottom. Pull out your phone and in just a few steps, you can search, chat, and book highly rated pros right in your neighborhood.

Plus, you'll know what to tackle next because Thumbtack is the app that shows you what to do, who to hire, and when. So say goodbye to all those unfinished home projects and say hello to caring for your home the easier way. Download Thumbtack and start a project today.

Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's around 2021, and Rosanna is getting a bit disillusioned with how YouTube and other platforms like Facebook keep changing their algorithms. So, for example, on Facebook, if...

A fan wants to follow me. They want to get updates from me. I'll post on my Facebook wall and it will say this post reached 5% of your audience. If you would like it to reach 50% of your audience, pay us $1,000. Yeah. That's how it is on Facebook. And that's what it is on YouTube. YouTube has a button. It is legal. It is on everyone's page. It's the promote button. And now it is pay to play. And that was not the case for many, many years on YouTube.

And now I think the math that I did, the cheapest I think you can do, because you can pick region and you can pick... But if you want...

It's about $1,000 for 100,000 views. So if you want your video to reach a million views, it's about $10,000. Wow. So now I've noticed you've pivoted in your videos. A lot of it's like you do reaction videos or you test things or you try different foods or shoes. You've done like even home decoration with your sister, right?

presumably these are just more like efficient videos to make. They're more economical and they're, yeah, they're just more efficient from a business standpoint too, right? Because they're not that expensive to make and you can kind of maximize as best as possible how many views you get. Yeah.

Food is expensive to produce. Yeah. And I know that sounds silly because you're just making a cake and you're like, how is that? But it's the amount of hours that go into the prep and development and recipe. It's a lot more than I could even explain. And a lot of the original food content creators you'll see that I started with, none of them are doing it anymore.

And what I've noticed is that when a food channel comes up and it kind of blows up and it performs well, it does so for about two years and then the algorithm poops on it and it's gone. So for me to stick around on the platform for over 11 years, I've had to adapt a lot to the algorithm, not my community, the algorithm.

And that's what's the frustrating part because my community wants those tutorials, wants those baking videos, wants to see all of those things. They miss Nerdy Nummies just as much as I do. I loved it. I still love it. But the algorithm hates it. And there's nothing I can do about that. But I wonder what you sort of do. I mean, as you...

You're kind of dependent on the platform, right? Because that's where your audience is. You've got 14 and a half million subscribers on YouTube. That's your biggest audience. And then you've got followers and other channels. But when you put a video out now, what you're saying is it's much harder to reach 15 million people. You can't unless you pay for it. Yeah. Which when Facebook rolled out with that, it killed my growth. It just felt very...

I just, because it's just whoever has the deepest pockets is going to get seen. And I would just say the biggest creators... Are paying for it. Yeah. They use terms like investing in their company or, you know, investing back in their company, but it's just buying views. So, and that is a big part of, I mean, this is, so it's like a brand advertising, right? It's like a brand saying...

basically taking a million dollars and putting it to marketing. I mean, that is essentially in order to, like if you started Nerdy Nummies today, you couldn't reach 14 and a half million subscribers. Yeah. My biggest advice for anybody going into business is to, as soon as you have some success, start diversifying your finances. That's what I did. And why it matters so much and why it's such a wonderful thing is because

Then, you know, whatever the algorithm's doing, you know, if it's, they're adjusting it, they're playing with it. If you skip a beat, you're not going to stress out because the finances will continue to flow if you have different revenue streams.

Tell me about how you've diversified your revenue streams. Where are they coming from? Well, we started to get into cookbooks. We kind of mentioned that. I've done a couple of those and I have another one I'm working on and also merchandise. And then I also do licensing deals. I did the Wilton licensing deal for three or four years. We had 70 products available.

across every Michael's, Joanne's. Under your name, Rosanna Pantano. Yes, yeah. And you did something with Container Store, too. Yes, iDesign. We made home organizational stuff for your kitchen and pantry, and those were at Container Stores. And we just moved this year, I think, into the UK and Canada and Canada.

on Amazon. So you've got the licensing deals, cookbooks, your own merchandise. TV shows. Yeah. TV shows. Yep. Which I'm hosting and some of them I'm also executive producing. I think that the diversified model is really smart because it's

Look, anyone's business, anyone who's in the public eye, you, me, anyone who's got a YouTube channel or a podcast, it's fleeting. Tomorrow, people can decide not to listen to this show or decide not to watch your channel. So as you kind of think about the future of the YouTube channel –

Do you think of it more as a place where you can showcase the extensions and the other things you're doing? Or like, how does YouTube continue to be a source of revenue if if in fact it will be?

I think about five years ago when the algorithm started to change, I realized that it may not be as steady as I was hoping. And so we already made financial adjustments across the board. So regardless of how the YouTube views, you know, whether I get lots of views or no views, the business is fine on its own. Every video is a standalone. Like you can upload a video, it'll get millions of views. And the next video I could upload, it'd get two views.

it is so wonka doodle right now. I just, what, what explains it? Like I'm looking at a video you did a year ago called, uh, it was the ultimate cotton candy test. That is 6 million views. And then you do another video, uh, you know, called how to make a robot cake with, with 160,000 views also from a year ago. So what, what explains that? Do you have any idea why? Uh, yeah, I've, I've, I've some insight. Um,

Engagement is king right now as a metric. Yeah. So what that means is like channels that are very like high drama channels, you know, where it's very high engagement. Like people need to watch them right away when they come out because it's like hot, spicy gossip news or... And I...

It doesn't help content creators grow naturally. It rewards the people who play the analytical game. For example, I have a friend, I won't say who it is, very large creator who will upload a video and then on the back end, anytime that there's a drop in retention, just for a split second, it's

they will edit it out on the back end. And they'll edit it out even if the video doesn't make sense anymore. So like for a food tutorial, if I edit it out, just those low points, people are missing steps of how to make this cake. So people who are successful are not doing it because they love the content or they care about the content or they want the content to make sense. They're doing it to gain the system.

Like when you watch a movie that was made just to make money and on that sole purpose alone, no artsy fartsy-ness. It's just to make money. It's like a cash grab, a quick piece of shit that you just, you can feel it. Yeah. Part of me is like, it's kind of a zero sum game, right? It's like,

I guess depending on how you manage the channel or your audience, I mean, you can do very well, but often for a very short period of time. And so to me it seems like, and it seems like you're doing this, the strategy is to take a long view and to understand that you're not always going to have years where you're making $10 million or $5 million or even $3 million. Some years you might.

but then some years you might make less than that. Yeah, off of just that one revenue source. So that's why it's so important to diversify and have multiple revenue streams so that if one goes wonky, then you're still solid. You don't feel like you're...

in crisis mode and like, oh no, my views are down, code red panic. I'm more like, you know, I can see that the algorithm isn't liking this and isn't showing it to my audience. And what changes do I want to make if I even do want to make them? For example, for

in December last year, my audience really wanted baking recipes. They just wanted cookie recipes for Christmas. And I knew that those videos were going to get no views. I knew the algorithm would hate them, but I did it anyways. And that was my Christmas present to my community. I filmed 12 to

with a guest in every episode. Duff Goldman came on. Jet Tila came on. I had my professional chef friends. I had Carney Wilson. You made Christmas cookies. I love her. Yeah, it's Carney Wilson from Wilson Phillips. Yes, yes, we're friends. The daughter of Mamas and Papas. Yeah, she's amazing. So I just, I had a guest on every episode and we did a new episode

you know, recipe and we did this cute little intro and it was just a little mini series that I did. And you just funded it. Yeah. Paid for it, but you did not get the, the return on that was not,

Not a financial return. Zero. Right. Yeah. So, but I love making food shows and especially family friendly food shows. I love them. So I think in the future, I might be creating different revenue streams so that I can produce food shows that I love. And then I just don't care about the views because I'm going to create what my community loves. And.

And it performs better on different platforms because they have different algorithms. Yeah.

So when you, as you look out, right, because you're now, you know, you've got a long rest of your life to live. You're still a young, young person. Thank you. And I mean, I mean that in, I mean, just from a lifespan perspective. Can I say your age? Is that okay? Please do. Yeah. I'm 38. You're approaching your 40s. Yes. But you have a long life to lead. And so when you think about the opportunities out there, is it...

Do you think in the context of food and cooking, or do you think I really want to go outside of that world? I think I'm going to be doing a little bit of everything. I don't know. I just have all this new experience now, executive producing TV shows and movies.

So I'm working with a bunch of really cool people to pitch and develop shows in a traditional space. And then on YouTube, I think I'm going to keep playing. There's a lot of possibilities there. So I'm going to keep playing, but I'm always going to be uploading something there because even if YouTube wants to make me pay thousands and thousands of dollars to reach my audience, I'm still going to be putting out those videos for the people that

are fighting the algorithm and show up anyways. When you think about the journey that you took, you know, where you got to today, and you built a nice business, and you made some money off of this, and you've been clearly are smart with your money, and I'm assuming that you are careful with it and have diversified where you put it as well. Yes. How much of where you are today, you know, given that you didn't, you moved to LA to be an actor, and you really...

was hard, but you built a successful career. How much of that do you attribute to how hard you worked and how much do you think has to do with luck? I think had I not worked so hard, I wouldn't have been as lucky. And I think that the continued success only comes from

being tenacious and having drive and never giving up and continuing. Because I've been rejected so many times in acting. I've had thousands of auditions where they were close calls, close but no cigar. And I've learned to just, you feel the feelings and then you keep moving.

You got to keep moving, keep pushing, keep swimming because there's so many people who find success later in life. And I'm good. I'm golden. I'm not in a rush. I'm not going anywhere. And yeah, a lot of failure comes with when you try new things. And I'm excited. I feel like I've been doing this forever, but I also feel like the next 10 years are going to be so new and different.

That's YouTube creator Rosanna Pansino. And by the way, if Rosanna were ever marooned on a desert island and could only have one kitchen gadget at her disposal? Oh, that's so hard. Okay, okay, okay. I think it would have to be something electric, like an electric...

whisk, like an electric mixer, hand mixer, or the stand mixer. Like the KitchenAid, right? It could be the KitchenAid or the electric hand mixer. Because whenever you're making a meringue, you know, you'd have to do that for eight minutes straight. And oh my God, my arms would just, they would burn off. You can do it. It is possible, but it's like churning butter. Like who wants to do that? Like with it, you know, it's just, no, thank you. So electric mixers.

Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode of the show. This episode was produced by Carla Estevez with music composed by Ramtina Arablui. It was edited by Neva Grant with research help from Malia Agudelo and engineering help from Gilly Moon and Robert Rodriguez.

Our production staff also includes Casey Herman, JC Howard, Catherine Seifer, Alex Chung, John Isabella, Carrie Thompson, Sam Paulson, and Chris Massini. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.

If you like how I built this, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.

My name is Georgia King, and I am thrilled to be the host of And Away We Go, a brand new travel podcast on Wondery+, where we'll be whisked away on immersive adventures all around the world. Where we go, what we do, what we eat, drink, and listen to will all be up to my very special guest.

We've got Ben Schwartz taking us on a whirlwind trip around Disneyland. We'll eat a bowl of life-changing pasta with Jimmy O. Yang in Tuscany, Italy. And how do you feel about a spot of sugaring off with Emily Hampshire in Montreal? And away we go, we'll immerse you

in some of the wonders of the world. We're going to be seeing some yellows and vibrant oranges. And the shoes clicking against the cobblestone. If you're looking to get somebody in the mood, have a look at the Chicago skyline. You can listen to And Away We Go exclusively with Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Georgia, do you know what joy sounds like? I think I'm hearing it right now.