The Key to Podcast Success in 2025 w/John Lee Dumas
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It's a terrible time to start a podcast if you're like 99% of people looking to start a podcast. It's a beautiful time to start a podcast if you say, "You know what? I have identified an amazing niche within my big idea that I'm passionate about, and then I just focus on having a podcast

that's strictly on that niche. Instead of being like, I'm the health guru. I'm going to answer all your health questions. Well, there's a million people doing that. Some of them are doing it great. Most of them are doing it terribly. And there's only really room for one or two winners. And are you really going to win that game? Probably not. Don't go against Amazon. Don't go against Apple. Don't go against Netflix. They won. Okay.

find your niche in focus. My name is Rudy Moore, host of Living the Red Life podcast, and I'm here to change the way you see your life in your earpiece every single week. If you're ready to start living the red life, ditch the blue pill, take the red pill, join me in Wonderland and change your life. What's up guys? Welcome back to another episode of Living the Red Life. We have a very famous guest today, especially if you've ever listened to this thing called a

podcast. You may know what a podcast is. Hopefully you do. And if you do, you know this guy, John Lee Dumas. John, welcome to the show. It's great to have you here. Rudy, fired up to be here. We're going to have a great conversation.

So, John, I know most people know, you know, your very famous podcast and yourself because you've been around, you know, I consider you one of the experts, the OGs. And, you know, as I grew up in this entrepreneurial world, I learned a lot and got to know many amazing people from your show. But if someone doesn't know you, do you mind just giving a minute or two overview?

Yeah. Back in 2012, I decided to launch the first and only daily podcast interviewing the world's most successful entrepreneurs. I called it Entrepreneurs on Fire. I've been doing it for 12 years, 4,496 episodes, over 160 million listens to date. And I just keep on trucking because I

I love chatting with inspiring and successful individuals, learning from them, engaging with them, connecting, networking, doing all those things. And of course, extracting value from them for my audience, Fire Nation over at Entrepreneurs on a Fire.

Love it. So I want to dive in with a few questions out the gate. And, you know, obviously you've grown an amazing podcast, but I also want to talk about growing a tribe and a community and how to create the longevity. Because I think there's a lot of people, as you know, in this industry, they come and go, they have these spurts. But one thing I admire about yourself is, you know, I think I've known you for probably

10 or so years, I guess, and you keep growing and you're always on the scene. So do you mind just kicking off with that? Like, how did you really grow the community and the longevity side?

I always really focus on that quote by Albert Einstein, which is try not to become a person of success, but rather a person of value. People don't care about your success as much as they care about getting value from the interactions they're having with you. Are they leaving that podcast, that conversation, or that blog that you might've written, that email, that social media post,

are they leaving those interactions better off than when they started that interaction? Are they getting value? Is it worth their time? Are they at least thinking to themselves, you know what? That wasn't a waste of my time, my energy, my bandwidth. So start there. Like for me, I was chasing success for a long time and I was failing because I was doing just that. I was chasing success and I wasn't

focus on providing value to people that I was interacting with. When I launched Entrepreneurs on Fire, that's exactly what I was doing, was just providing value, daily value, literally seven days a week,

for free to people that wanted to consume that content where I got to interact with the world's most inspiring and successful entrepreneurs and bring their genius, their knowledge, their value to my audience, again, for free. So that was a critical thing. And that was definitely the reason why Entrepreneurs on Fire took off and why I'm still kicking 12 years later.

Great. So if someone's listening to that and they go, well, I want to give value. I want to grow a tribe, a community and educate. There's a lot of my members and people I work with that we all share that similarity. But I think there's a difference between being an expert or having something great to say, but then being able to get it out to the world. Right. And I've done a pretty good job of that myself with what I teach. You've obviously done a world class job of that.

On your end, what would some tips be for someone listening that wants to do that, but they don't really know where to start? Okay, if you don't listen to this next tip, then you're probably going to do it all wrong. And I don't say that because you are listening and you're a bad person or you're not a smart person or because you don't have every intention of working hard. I'm sure you're the opposite of all those things. I'm sure you're a good person. I'm sure you're going to work hard. I'm sure all those things because...

Those are the type of people that listen to these shows in the first place. They're self-starters. They want to win. They're not listening to this podcast if they're the type of individual that would rather spend hours mindlessly going through TikTok or Instagram Reels. So you're already here. You're already qualified. But why are you going to do it wrong is the following. You're going to do what so many people, and I mean 99% of people, do incorrectly when they first start any journey of the entrepreneurial game. They say, you know what? Let's do it.

Look at what John's doing with Entrepreneurs on Fire. Look at what Rudy's doing. Look at what Tim Ferriss is doing. Look at what Gary Vaynerchuk is doing. Let me just copy that.

Because if I only get a piece of their success, then I'll still have a lot of success and I'll be happy. Well, guess what? Nobody wants a pale, weak imitation of somebody else. So it's not that you're not working hard because I know you are and doing all of those things. I mean, you're listening to the show. So already that qualifies you as somebody who cares about self-improvement, who wants to improve themselves.

But it's because you're going to make the mistake that 99% of people do. And they do it just because a lot of times they just don't know any better. And I've made this mistake multiple times in my past. And you see somebody like Tim Ferriss and Gary Vaynerchuk and fill in the blank and you're like, oh, they're having success. Let me go ahead and copy that success. And if I even just get a little sliver, a little piece of that, then boom, I'll have enough success and I'll be happy. And then I can just go off and do what I'm focused on.

Well, nobody wants a pale and weak imitation of somebody else. They want the true, authentic, genuine version of you, of Tim Ferriss, of Gary, of me, of fill in the blank. That's who people want. So instead of trying to copy and to mimic and become a pale, weak imitation of that individual, you need to say, what is my unique identity?

identifier. There's a whole process to go through on this. I can't bore you with the details now because that's just like a whole book, which actually I wrote called The Common Path to Uncommon Success. I literally take you through this whole entire process.

But you need to find your big idea, whatever that might be. And then within that, what is that niche that you can carve out that has been ignored, that people aren't focused on for any number of reasons that you can come in and dominate? Because either number one, there's really bad competition, or number two, there's just really no competition. Because guess what? When I launched Entrepreneurs on Fire back in 2012,

I was the best daily podcast in the world interviewing entrepreneurs. I was the worst daily podcast in the world interviewing entrepreneurs. I was the only daily podcast in the world interviewing entrepreneurs. That is why I won. There was no competition, even if people didn't like me or the show, which plenty of people didn't because I wasn't that good at what I did when I started.

they had to listen because I was the only show in town. That's why Blockbuster used to win back in the day before they got demolished by Netflix.

That's why, you know, your local supermarket, you know, grocer is winning because it's convenient. It's only there. And that's why Entrepreneur's on Fire won because I was the only person delivering that value, delivering that service. So what is it that you can do to carve out your little niche? And by the way, don't be scared that it might be a little niche because once you get early traction, early momentum, you can just expand that out into some amazing things and opportunities. I mean, it started with a daily podcast.

It turned into that plus the biggest podcasting course and community in the world.

Five books that I've now written that I'm still selling, other courses, masterminds, coaching, partnerships, affiliates. It's turned into so much, all because I carved out a tiny little niche, built upon that, and then exploded as the opportunities arose going forward, delivering free, valuable content on a consistent basis. That's a daily podcast, Entrepreneurs on Fire.

Yeah, and I love that because what's funny is, you know, I have a lot of obviously great guests on the show here. And I asked them, you know, a lot of times in their subject area of expertise, how do you really get started? What's some key rules? And it might be social media, it might be LinkedIn, it might be building a personal brand, it might be launching a podcast and everything.

And generally the advice always comes back to that central point of like, you know, develop. And I teach this, I kind of say, figure out what your gimmick is, you know, and I learned this from working with some WWE wrestlers and, and I really saw it there and they're world-class at building their persona. Um, and everyone kind of says it differently, but I still think it anchors back to that, you know, blue ocean, red ocean, and then finding a niche and then what makes you stand out and what's authentic and,

And something that you can consistently do too. I think that's so important because I always say with dieting, my fitness background, it's the best diet is the one you can stick to, right? And you have to find something that you represent and resonate and enjoy. So I love that answer. And I would love to continue that question around, okay, so they pick something to start

And, you know, podcasting has obviously been an amazing journey for you. Podcasting now, if they start a podcast now, is it still a good time to start a podcast? How would you grow your brand if you were starting today?

It's a terrible time to start a podcast if you're like 99% of people looking to start a podcast and saying, oh, that podcast is having success. Let me copy that podcast. It's a beautiful time to start a podcast if you say, you know what? I have identified an amazing niche within my big idea that I'm passionate about, that I have skills and knowledge in, that I can provide value to, and then I just

focus on having a podcast that's strictly on that niche. I'm only going to provide value on that topic. I'm only going to provide the number one solution that's

number one solution to a real problem. And that's what I'm going to focus my podcast on. I'm only going to bring guests on to talk about that. I'm only going to do topic-based podcast episodes that are talking about that. I'm only going to do Q&A shows about that. That's going to be everything that I do, and that's what I'm going to be focused on. You know, example, this is just random. I'm pulling it out of the air, but

What if you were struggling with Lyme disease? That is a real problem that people have. And if you had the Lyme disease cure podcast where you took people through and interviewed people that were the biggest geniuses just about Lyme disease, and you talked people through supplements and this and fill in the blank health and exercise routines and all these different things they can do, red light therapy, infrared sauna, whatever that might be, you could become...

like the go-to free podcast source in the world on that topic, which I mean, that would be an amazing thing to have. And by the way, then maybe once you've got that dialed in, then you're moving on to X and Y and Z, you know, within the same genre, but

But, you know, then you're off and you're helping other people in that same area that can really be valuable and it can break down to some amazingly large opportunities. But it started with that micro niche that you're going to dominate instead of being like, I'm the health guru. I'm going to answer all your health questions. Well, there's a million people doing that.

Some of them are doing it great. Most of them are doing it terribly. And there's only really room for one or two winners. And are you really going to win that game? Probably not. Don't go against Amazon. Don't go against Apple. Don't go against Netflix. They won. Okay. Find your niche and focus. Yeah. And I love just to piggyback a bit on that. Um,

because everyone always asks, well, how do you grow from there? And you kind of answered it. And I teach it's like, it becomes what I call like a natural expansion. So you start with like a small circle, then a bit bigger circle and a bigger circle. So, you know, using Lyme disease, in my opinion, at least I see it like that. And then you might go into two or three other similar diseases that can be cured, you know, with natural remedies, then you might go into more overall, eventually five years later, when you're

famous, you're starting to teach more holistic medicine. And that's kind of how I think a natural transition is. But most people don't start there. They do it backwards where they start as like, oh, I'm a health guru that teaches holistic medicine. And it's so broad and it's so hard to stand out.

Whereas, like you say, I mean, you can win in that sub-niche and then maybe expand as you go. You're going to lose in a saturated competitive market. It's going to happen. But you can win in a micro-niche uncompetitive market and then get traction and momentum and get some chops, put in some reps, get better at what you do. And then down the line, you can probably take those people on on different levels and varying things, and maybe they're going to acquire you.

Maybe you're going to acquire them. Yeah. Yeah. Love it. And I would love just, you know, so obviously you have grown an amazing podcast. I don't want to ignore that. And I would love to just ask you, you know, all the downloads, all the episodes, all the years, you've got to have learned some lessons, right? So can you give me like three to five lessons that if someone has a podcast or is growing one that you think super valuable to always remember that you could maybe wish you, you know, taught yourself? Yeah.

Here are three lessons that anybody listening can apply to their life, whether it's a podcast or just a general business that you're doing, any niche, physical, in-person, B2B, B2C, fill in the blank.

These are traits that successful entrepreneurs possess. Number one is productivity. They are productive people. Now, everybody thinks they're productive. Most people aren't. They're like, John, I was doing this and that. I'm running around. You're busy. That's a completely different word. You're not productive because productive means this. You're producing the right content, podcasts, blogs, social media, whatever that might be for you.

Are you producing the right content that's attracting the right people, clients, customers, leads into your world? Number two, are you disciplined? Very few people are disciplined. Everybody thinks they are, but guess what? Let me ask you, what is your plan for the day? And you're probably going to stutter and look like a deer in headlights because you really don't have a plan for the day. You're in pure reaction mode.

If you're really disciplined, you win tomorrow today. That means you create your plan for tomorrow today. And then you become a disciple to that specific plan of action. That's key. And then focused. Are you focused or are you running off after the latest and greatest thing that's always cropping up? AI, crypto, blah, blah, blah. It's like all these things. And by the way, some great opportunities there. But if you already have your thing...

Focus, follow one course until success. That's where the real winners win. Love it. Love it. Okay. Now, as we come towards the end of the show, I do have a few rapid fire questions and I'm going to throw in a bonus one to starters because of your podcasting background. You've interviewed so many amazing people. What's one of the highlights and biggest lessons from one guest you've had?

Hmm. So I've interviewed this individual multiple times now, but he just continues to do amazing work. So I just love kind of going back to the well.

And interviewing this person over and over again, you know, it was always kind of a little bit of a pinch me moment. And that's Tony Robbins because he was somebody that I really grew up listening to his tapes, watching him on movies and videos, attending his conferences. Then to kind of have him in a scenario like this one-on-one is kind of like larger than life. And you're like, you're here, you're talking to him and he's just going like this and like all these things are happening.

And it's like just you can feel the energy. You can feel it is coming across the screen. I've been with him in person multiple times now as his top affiliate, getting to go hang out with him for four days in Fiji and everywhere.

I mean, I just learned a lot from him. But again, it's just, you have to enjoy your craft. If you're waking up every day and it feels like a little bit of a grind, you're not going to win because there's other people waking up doing that exact same thing, but they love it. And they're always going to win because they're going to look forward to doing it. And they're going to do it better for longer because of that. Like I love interviewing people. So people like John, like,

Don't you get burned out and tired? I'm like, you might, because this isn't like something that you want or should be doing. But I love having these conversations with successful entrepreneurs. So I know I'm doing the right thing. And hey, maybe that changes in five years and five months and 10 years, who knows. But right now, I know that that is something I still love doing. Like tomorrow, I have seven interviews with seven entrepreneurs back to back.

It's going to be a great time for people like, oh my God, I'd be dead for a week after that. Yes, because that would be sucking energy from you, but it actually adds energy to me because everybody's different. Everybody has their own pros and cons, their own things that light them up and dim that light.

So, you know, for me, Tony really kind of proved that, that this guy, he's never going to stop because he doesn't want to. Why would he? What's he going to do? There's no alternative that he would rather be doing. There's nothing he would rather be doing than being on stage in front of 10,000 people doing that thing. He loves it. So I took that away and I realized, hey, I could go in a million different directions, but the fact that I know that I love what I'm doing and I really enjoy it and it brings me energy and happiness, why stop?

I love that. Love that answer. Okay, last couple. Most controversial belief around marketing business money that upsets people. That upsets people. Interesting. I would say a lot of times people say, you know, be a jack of all trades when it comes to marketing. Like, you know, be good at everything and be a master of none. And I think it's the exact opposite. I think you just need to find one thing, one channel that you're great at.

We've just been great at podcasting. That's all we've been great at. We're really bad at all other things, social media, email marketing. I mean, we try, but we're just average to below average in it. And so it just kind of putters along. But we're great at one thing. We just doubled down. We became a master when it comes to a daily interview with a successful entrepreneur. We're a master at that. And there's a reason why there's no competition.

Great. Love it. And last one, if you could go in a time machine to your younger self and give yourself one or two tips for business and life, what would they be? Number one tip would be relax. Like everybody is in such a rush to get somewhere and to do something. Just relax and realize that time is on your side. When you're 20, you want to be 30 and like

And like in your career, when you're 30, you want to be 40 because you realize that you're not quite yet in your career that you want to be. And you figure in 10 years, you probably will be. You're never satisfied. You're never going to be happy. That's why you're listening to this show because you're an entrepreneur. You're a self-starter. Like you're somebody that wants to do something with themselves. So just relax and just follow the principles that work and just know that it will come in time and try to enjoy the moment.

Love it. Well, last question is normally where do people find you? But I think that's pretty obvious. Entrepreneurs on Fire. Anywhere else to send them if they want to learn more about you? Eofire.com is our headquarters. That's our website where all the magic happens. So check it out. We've got free courses there. Of course, the podcast Entrepreneurs on Fire, John Lee Dumas. Check it out. We have a new episode every single day.

Love it. John, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much, guys. As always, go away, implement this, take it seriously. And remember, action trumps all. Thank you for today. Keep living the red line.