Hiring & Writing Perfect Copy For Your Business w/Kevin Rodgers
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Can you talk through how to find a copywriter and how to hire them, how to make sure you don't get a bogus one? Rule number one, do not post on Facebook that you're looking for a copywriter. Say goodbye to your DMs. These people can barely reply to me in a readable form saying, I'll write the copy free and if it does this, give me 20 grand. It's not transactional. At the end of the day, what people want to feel when they read copy that this

this person's walked in my shoes and they get it and they can help me my name is rudy moore host of living the red life podcast and i'm here to change the way you see your life in your earpiece every single week if you're ready to start living the red life ditch the blue pill take the red pill join me in wonderland

and change your life. What's up guys? Welcome back to another episode of Living the Red Life. Today we're going to talk about coffee, which if you don't know what that is, it's selling via words. It's a big, big piece of business. In fact, it's something I say I've made millions of dollars because I got great at coffee. And we've got Kevin joining us today. He's one of the OGs in the coffee space, if you don't know who he is. And he's actually helped me find lots of amazing copywriters over the years. So Kevin, welcome to the show.

Good to be here, Rudy. Appreciate it, man. So let's start at the baseline. I say one of the biggest problems most entrepreneurs have is they can't write good copy. And I got lucky that I became really good at it and wrote lots of million dollar funnels for myself. But I think it's the first step. And I say a lot of people are doomed to fail if they can't either write good copy or find a good copywriter. So can you just explain, A, if you think that's true and agree and why that's true?

I think it's true for a couple of reasons. Some people are good and in some ways the business owner is the best person to, I wouldn't say write the copy, but drive the copy, right? So it really is a partnership between you and the copywriter.

You know, they're the ones who geek out on copy and study what's working, what isn't, and they're good writers, or they wouldn't be in the business. And so just not everybody's a good writer, just like some people just aren't good at math. Their brain doesn't work that way. However, you know, the business owner knows why they started the business.

why it's uniquely qualified to help the people it helps. And so if they work with a copywriter who can take everything that's in your brain and put it into a very lucid, clear offer that's exciting, then you hit a home run.

Yeah. And I think that's like the biggest, so I, you know, I have a big mastermind coaching group and we do see a clear difference of like, we have half of the people that can go away and start writing their own copy with some of our coaches supporting them. And then we have some people that like, it's kind of like you, you're banging your head against the wall and it's just like, Hey, that's not your skillset. Right. And everyone should know what they're great at and not great at. And then we tell them like, look, if you don't delegate this and find a copywriter, um,

you're never going to be successful because it's like having, like I try and teach them, like imagine the only way you made sales was for a cool center and all the sales reps. So like, it's like, that's what bad coffee is, right? A hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, you got to trust somebody to be your voice. Yeah. And you know, look, the other thing is two things with business owners. Number one, they're visionaries, which means they have a lot of ideas and they're trying to,

I suffer this myself sometimes, writing my own copy for 10 years. I want to tell them everything that the thing can do for them. But what a copywriter will help you do is understand the two or three things that they really care about and emphasizing those and let everything else be a bonus or a surprise. And the other thing is you're busy as a business owner. And a writer needs some headspace, a good two, three, four hours to sit down and get in the zone and

and do that work. And if you've got people pinging you and waiting on you for other stuff, it's really hard to make that happen.

Yeah, when I used to ride all my own funnels, I would do them on airplanes and I just wouldn't buy Wi-Fi intentionally. Right. And I would do them late at night or weekends when most of the staff were off. Because, yeah, I mean, and now I grew to 110 employees last year. So I couldn't imagine. It's hard for me to even write a sentence to an employee at Lindy where we're going on these days. I can't imagine.

spending six hours on a landing page copy like I used to. But I will tell you, learning that skill is so good because even now, I kind of act as a copy chief to my copywriters and I'll give them a lead in and a hook. And honestly, I think that's like 90% of it. If you get that right, then...

good copywriter can take and run with it. Uh, but it's hard to find the copywriter that can like really give that like strong lead in hook and like stuff. So I would love to ask you, you know, a lot of our audience listening in, they're probably listening to this already and going, Oh crap, maybe this is me. I've got crappy coffee. Uh,

What do I do now, Rudy, listening to this? I'm not very good at writing copy. Can you talk through how to find a copywriter and how to hire them, how to make sure you don't get a bogus one? And also for my audience and a lot of entrepreneurs, they don't have the old school, I'll pay 10 grand sort of thing. They need someone that's maybe cheap and dirty to sell hourly. So can you talk us through those? 100%. Rule number one, do not post on Facebook that you're looking for a copywriter.

Say goodbye to your DMs and you'll feel like these people can barely reply to me in a readable form. So this is what I do a lot of. I connect business owners with copywriters that I vet, that I've trained. I know their experience level. I know their availability. I know their pricing. I'll tell you what, the sweet spot, because that's the other thing you're going to get is a bunch of people saying,

I'll write the copy free, and if it does this, give me 20 grand. That's not the relationship. It's not transactional. It is a relationship, Rudy, as I'm sure you know, and that's the difference, right? And I'll tell you what, the sweet spot, here's the problem for a freelance copywriter that when you understand it, things start to click.

When they're newer, they're super hungry and they have more talent than experience. Right. And if they're doing a bunch of one off, one night stand work for clients, they're not getting performance data. They're not, you know, even knowing if their stuff went live some of the time. So what they really want is to see their stuff in action and learn how it did and hopefully be able to reiterate and have it do better. That's how they learn. That's how they grow.

Well, it's funny. I've hired a bunch of copywriters and I literally say to them, send me the examples, but I'm like super data-driven, like,

We have a 12 page data dashboard. I get hourly reports. I know every lander click for a sales rep revenue for cool ball. Like you can't probably ask me a stat. I don't know. But so I asked them, I'm like, say, I say, send me the examples and then all the data for those funnels and landers and 99% they say either they don't know or

or their old people they work for never told them. And I'm like, I'm like just lost. It's insane, right? It's insane. I know it's a problem that shouldn't exist. And we, our copywriters actually have to do a weekly report in our company on all everything they're doing. So they have to work with a tech team to pull the click through rates, to pull their SaaS, to pull the landing page, pull the bounce rate, to pull the heat maps of where people are dropping off.

And every, you know, I've hired hundreds of copywriters. Half of them hate me because I work them too hard and don't give them long. Half of them love me and say it was the best job ever because they learned so much and like been pushed and grown and, and literally in six months a lot more than,

that they've learned in six years. And I think following that data is like, is everyone thinks like, oh, copy sounds good or it doesn't. And as you know, sometimes it works when it shouldn't. And sometimes when you think you've got this masterpiece, it's a total flop. Yeah, and that's why AI is adding a more confusing element to it because if you don't know the difference, it sounds pretty good. But it's not going to connect

In a way, it's not going to get the details right. It doesn't have experience or experiences. And that's at the end of the day, what people want to feel when they read copy that this person's walked in my shoes and they get it and they can help me.

Yeah, and that's why, coming back to what you said earlier, like, you know, I think the business owner can often, if they're a good writer and they've got that side of the brain and stuff, they can often write amazing copy. Like, my first landing page that did millions, I had so many copywriters come in and try and beat it. It never could because, like, I had been a personal trainer for seven years before. And so you've spent, like, hundreds of hours one-on-one with a client, like, subconsciously learning how they talk and their pain. Right.

And it's just something that's very hard for a copywriter to, to replicate. So I definitely think there's that, there should be that synergy. And honestly, what's kind of interesting too, is some of our best copywriters and a couple have come from you have gone on and, and become like actually great employees full time and like managers and,

Sometimes it's been a mistake in hindsight where they burn out because they weren't good from... They had the capabilities, but all the mindset leadership stuff they didn't have. But some of them have actually gone on and become great marketing managers once they started using all the data and seeing...

all the pieces connect. And some of them have made massive differences in my Facebook ads and the ads because the ads these days, the technical setup, I say I could teach to anyone in 20 minutes. It's the creatives that make 90% of ads successful. So copywriters can have such a big impact across strategy, ads, everything, right? 100%, everything. And the more they know, the better they can do. Yeah. Yeah.

And so, yeah, that's just rule one. If they're not hungry to, they're not asking you questions. You talk about hiring, how to vet them, right? They should be asking you questions. You need to go look for the end. If they're not like you, Rudy, and walk around with every stat in their head all the time, they're going to be asking you things that you're like, damn, I should know that. Yeah.

Well, most entrepreneurs don't too. Literally everyone in our mastermind, one of the first things is we give them an Excel sheet and show them how to start just pulling the basic data on their own stuff too. Yeah. Yeah. And so the best ones are super hungry, always curious.

and just driven to beat the current controls in those numbers. Like you said, you hire hundreds just to try to beat your control. And again, that's how they learn. They can't, you know, hand copying sales letters and all these things they tell copywriters to do to get better. It's just practice. You know, they want to practice with purpose and make it real.

So, you know, that I mean, give up, give them a writing test, Rudy, like that's the best way to find a good copywriter is, you know, have a call with them if they seem like they know what they're talking about. Get an idea of budget, make sure you're you're aligned there and then just ask them to do a simple copy test.

And that's, again, more important than ever because of ChatGPT. You got to make sure that they're the ones writing it, that they understand how to speak in your language and your voice. Yeah, it's funny because I've had long-term copywriters now with me a while, so I've not actually really hired a copywriter in the last year.

So I can't imagine, like now I can't imagine it because I'm sure half of them are doing it all in chat GPT. And we actually, we have hired one part-time guy to help on some social stuff, but we actually encouraged for that. We said we want a copywriter that understands how to use chat GPT to condense time and do this kind of splinter method I teach where you take one piece and make tons. But yeah, I think probably,

really reading it and making sure it flows well saying that's the easiest way to catch if someone is using chat GPT wrong as if it sounds robot right so sorry go on

And soon they're going to be marking things that this was written by a human. And if you're building trust with your audience and it's getting tagged that way, that's going to kill trust. Well, yeah, I think SEO is already starting. I think YouTube will start. And then I think it will have a roll on effect to email probably too, right? Well, it will be low on it. So.

It's definitely interesting. What about, so, you know, one more level practical then. So, okay, everyone's listening. They're like, I want to start someone, you know, I've got a small budget, maybe 10 hours a week to do, you know, some basic emails, ads, maybe a mini lander or whatever. Where do they like, where do they go to find this person?

Email me directly. I got them all in there. They're waiting, waiting for an opportunity to, to work with a client like that. Kevin at copy chief.com copy chief is the community I've run for 10 years. And this is what we do. I started it because people were always asking me for good copywriters and copywriters are always asking, where do I get all these great clients? So I was like here, everybody just meet in this forum. And it's been 10 years and now we train them up.

and we work with them and then we back them up. So if you hire a copywriter through me, they're in my community and they're working with high level copy chiefs. They're getting their copy reviewed and looked at. So you're not just hiring one person, right? You're hiring a whole team essentially.

And what should someone pay? You know, as I know, obviously it's going to massively range, but what should someone, you know, someone's low budget starting out, what are they going to look to pay to get someone to do some bits and pieces as a test to get them going in the whole world of hiring their first copywriter? Yeah. I mean, to start, if they want me to like vet them and walk them to their door, I charge $2,500 for that service. And then I stay with them after they hire people.

And then what they negotiate with the copywriter is between the two of them. I'm not an agency. I don't take a cut from anybody. And I even guide both parties through that because otherwise they're fumbling around in the dark together, right? Copywriter's trying to guess how much they can charge.

The company is trying to see how little they can pay. And all they need to do is communicate openly and say, this is what I need to do it. And this is what I can afford to pay. And if it works, it works. And if not, we send somebody else your way, right? It's just, it shouldn't be that simple.

But, you know, you think for a couple of grand a month, they can get someone to do some. Yeah, absolutely. I experienced copywriters who work in between two, three on retainer to do some emails or, you know, beef up landing pages, things like that.

Yeah.

might have a 20%, 30% boost on your ads. And that's like, you know, you're talking six, nine grand with basic math there and you might only have to pay them three or two. It's like, it's a no brainer. And, you know, we started to learn this. So we actually built

Internal SOP is where we did weekly ad refreshes for this reason, because I think everyone with marketing and ads, like in life, they don't fix a disease until they get the disease, right? And you don't fix the ads burning out and the CPAs going too high or CPLs until they go too high.

And then it's like, it takes weeks to recover. So like we, you know, so anyone listening, like don't just hire a copywriter to do new ads when your ads start sucking because by the way,

Too late. It's going to take a month or two to recover. You're maybe going to even rush the hire, make a bad hire, place a lot of stress on the copywriter. If their ads don't work out the gate, now you hate them and don't want to pay them and then burn two more grand. And it's like, you know, businesses, especially in marketing, it's a case of always innovating. I always teach it's always innovate and a good copywriter can do that.

You're speaking the gospel. I mean, that's everything I want to tell and do tell entrepreneurs, you know, dig the well before you're thirsty. Um, and you're, it's an investment. It should never be an expense after a couple of months of working together by the third month, you should be seeing two, three, four, five X return from your copywriter. Um, and what about, um,

What about like last couple of questions as we approach the time here? So, you know, people know they can come to you. You can help them place. You know, you've talked about finding good copywriters. I would just love like a couple of like tips in general, because obviously you're a great copywriter yourself. Like in today's landscape, because I do think it's changed a lot in the last 10, 20 years. Like what makes great copy these days with like social media and I think the blend of brands

now is more important and people want to buy on just like old school sales letters? Like how do you teach that these days? Yeah. Again, just watching the market and understanding, you know, the great Eugene Schwartz always talked about market awareness and market sophistication. And everybody's

Seemingly more sophisticated now because they're being so exposed to so many ads. And so the edge you can have is really look at what other people are, how they're selling similar products to yours.

It's easy to go to Facebook ads library and see how long an ad's been running. How many ads are they running to the same landing page? Obviously that's producing fruit for them, right? So it's easy to do a little research and get an idea of what angles. And then also just having dialogue with your prospects, making sure you're hearing directly from them what really matters. Because as

As business owners, it's really easy for us to assume what we know what they need. What do they need to hear? You know, and we don't we're not trying to be dishonest or or mislead them. But if we're focused on what we know is the core problem that they have, but they're stuck here on the surface of it, there's a major disconnect.

And I say, one thing that sounds so obvious, no one does that. I'm like, survey once a year, once every six months, they are done. And I said, even in my fitness business, after like eight years as a trainer and then a few years running big for millions of dollars, I still learned stuff that was valuable to the audience and the avatar. And to me, it wasn't that important. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. Let's test an ad.

you know, in an email just about this topic. And so, yeah, I love that too. So Kevin, great, great stuff. I really appreciate this because I mean, it's such a big key piece to people being successful online. And I do say like,

outsource the hardest parts, right? Like there's a lot of stuff in the business you can do. And if you have a low budget, like copywriting is like, you know, if you're building a house or redecorating your house, like you can paint the walls, but you're not, you're not going to do the live electric probably like to me, copywriting, great example of that, where you pay the money for that and paint your own walls if you're trying to save money. So, uh,

I know, you know, you've already mentioned it, but just final question to wrap today. If they want to learn more about you, find great copywriters, can you just throw that link on the website one more time for everyone? Yeah, just go to copychief.com. And my personal direct email is kevin at copychief.com. Be happy to have a chat with you and get you some good people.

Great. Kevin, thanks so much for your time. This was also a great session and a great one-on-one on how to write a good copy, find a good copywriter and why copy is so important. And there's no one better than yourself to learn these things from. So thanks for coming on. Thank you, Brutus. Thanks again for sending me so many amazing copywriters over the years.

It's been super valuable for my business and the community you've got. And guys, go check him out and his whole community if you need copywriters, which you will in your business over time. So Kevin, thank you again. And guys, keep living the red life. Take care.