A Celebration of Season One with Ken Olin and Us
01:00:38 Share

We have been talking about this episode of this podcast probably since episode one. Since its inception. Because everybody who's seen the show, yeah, sure, you would love to talk to Milo Ventimiglia. You'd love to see Justin Hartley. You'd love to talk to Chrissy. But the person that you don't know you want to talk to Come through now. is Ken Olin. Ken Olin's in the house, ladies and gentlemen! You don't know it till now. The original Silver Fox. How you doing, gorgeous?

I'm good. It's really nice to see you guys. It's been a long time, but it's weird because it doesn't really feel that way. No, it doesn't. It's nice. Well, you're up. You're in Vancouver right now helping out Justin with Tracker. So you still sort of connected through that as well.

But like, what people don't know, like we know Fogelman, you know, you see the faces in front of the camera, but when you have a producing director, someone who's handling three to four to five, I'm not sure what the most episodes was that you did in the season, but you're there all the time. And somebody who has just as much care, affinity for the characters as we do as the actors doing it, like can care

and knows it so much. And to be directed by you is to be directed by someone who loves you. And you feel that much more open and generous and carefree because you know that like, oh, this man loves this show as much as I do. Yes. And in layman's terms for people who, like a producing director is someone who essentially, oh,

how would I put this, oversees the continuity of the show, directs the directors. Sure. Does that, was that fair, Ken? Yeah, I think, I think it's the probably as much as anything, um, that connection between all of us that are on the set all the time, the, the, the, uh, the crew and the cast and liaison with the writers who, um,

who aren't as, I guess, production savvy or as connected on a daily basis. And then I think the other thing I felt like I was really involved with was just the...

I guess the tonal continuity of the show and also, you know, where you guys were at, like in terms of being able to talk, in terms of continuity and just emotionally, like it's such a different experience, a pilot, as you guys know, and then a series, that constant growing of the characters and at the same time maintaining some of the elements of the show that the audience looks forward to that are consistent.

So, you know, I think one of the things I do, which is different than some producing directors, I think some producing directors don't direct as much as they maybe spend time with the directors that are preparing to do the next episode or on set overseeing those things. I direct it a lot. That's what I like to do.

So that was my way mostly of staying in touch with all of you guys and connected with the production. I feel bad 'cause sometimes when I had done other shows, there would be directors, producing directors who'd spend a lot of time on the set. And I always felt uncomfortable

directing other directors. It seems to be, it's just an odd thing as a director to be told by another director. Right. So I just felt more comfortable just actually doing it myself. Let me just directed myself. And were you in the same position on Alias? Was that the same title? And Brothers and Sisters. And Brothers and Sisters. And you were an actor on the hit TV show 30-something. Yeah. So you were steeped in television history. I'm sure a lot of your audience is familiar with 30-something. They

They should be. They should be. They weren't born. Isn't it coming back soon? No, wait. There was going to be a reboot of 30-something. Then the pandemic hits. Hold on. I've heard rumblings that there might still be. Is it still possible? That's what I heard. I want to be treated like you guys are treated. Listen. I want to be like, huh?

You want free liquid IV? One sec, I'm on with my agent. If you want to see the most incredible transformation, Ken was on set and for a while, Ken sort of entered into this phase of not caring of how he looked. And then they heard that there was going to be a possibility of a reboot of 30-something. They were going to bring everybody back.

I got jacked up. My arm was like your arm. Ken was like walking around like a beast. And then the show went away and then he stopped caring. Forget it.

It's a weird thing. You know what? You're right. And you were concerned. I was. I was. I said, buddy, you should still just try to be healthy for the sake of being healthy. I know. Well, I am. I am. You're right. That's true. You look great, Ken. And you look great right now. Thank you. I am. You're taking very good care of yourself. I'm in good shape. I am.

I am. How many episodes of our show did you direct? I was just about to ask that. A 30-something episode. I did. Like 32 or 33 of them. Really? Yeah. I would have thought more. Yeah, I directed a lot. I thought you directed like half. Well, that's almost a third. Yeah. That's almost a third. Yeah, a third of them I did. I mean, for real, because we did 106. A third of them.

Does anything stick out in your memory directorially in terms of like... Wait, wait. Before we get there, can you regale us with how you even came on board to the show? Like how did This Is Us enter your orbit? Because I remember when we were told at... Were you guys at that screening? There was like a screening at NBC and it was with some of the actors and their reps and Dan was there. And I remember being told like,

we just closed Ken Olin's deal. And the room was like, like everyone was a Twitter with like, what? Ken is coming. Ken is going to be a part of the show. And anyway, so I'm curious like how that all manifested. That so was not where I was at, at my career at that point. So nice to hear. I had just, I had come, uh,

I had, after Brothers and Sisters, I did a couple of different shows in that same position that were not a great fit. You want to talk about them? You want to name them all? I told you about them. And all the executive in the ball? No, you can look at them all. And I was working with producers that were dishonest and...

would always, whenever there were issues, they would blame different members of the crew. It was just toxic. And I, you know, as you guys know, sometimes I talk or open my mouth too much. And I...

I let them, in two different cases, let them know in uncertain terms what I thought of their mendacity and their behavior. So I was just, yeah, that didn't go over well. So I ended up, we ended up selling our place in Los Angeles, moving back to New York. And I thought, you know, I can't keep doing these jobs for people I don't have, I don't respect and I don't like. And I think I'm just going to,

stop and move back to New York. And then Dan, my agent called and said, hey, they're interested in meeting with you on this thing called 36. Isn't that what it was called? 36, untitled Dan Fogelman. Happy birthday. Glad you're John. And I go, okay, let me look at this. And

And then I went into my study and I watched the pilot and I came out and Patty said, "Well, what do you think?" And I said, "This is really good." And she laughed and she said, "Okay." And she thought I was kidding. I've been so cynical and so angry and stuff. And I said, "No, this is really good. This is really good." And I mean, it was, I honestly, I think that's one of the best pilots I've ever seen. It's just a fantastic pilot.

I got on the phone with Dan and it turns out that when Dan's mom was sick,

she would, she loved Brothers and Sisters. So whenever he would go over, she would make, you know, you can imagine Dan, how Dan tells me this, "I had to watch Brothers and Sisters." He says, "I don't even know who you are." You know, he never saw 30-something. But anyway, he, she had loved Brothers and Sisters. And so he had watched it. So that's how that came about. As I talked to Dan for a while, and I talked to John and Glenn who had directed the pilot and that's, that's how it happened. I think that

Jen Sankey and Lisa Katz, you know, who were, I think they both were really familiar with my work and stuff. So I had some support at the studio and the network.

But that's how it came about. It's so nice to actually, I think one of the things which people would talk about, like, you know, it's really important when you go into meetings that you be enthusiastic. But I was genuinely enthusiastic. So, you know, it worked. I really, really wanted to do the show. I loved it. The thing that was so great that you guys did in the pilot was it seemed like

like so inhabited. Like you don't see very many pilots where you go, "Well, this is like, this feels like a show in its second or third year." It's so lived in. So that was, that was incredible. - How much of that do you attribute to the look of the show? Every time I watch, rewatching the show, it has,

When you say lived in, it feels so cozy. The direction of the photography feels so intimate, no matter what the situation. Does it feel different? Like when you go back and you watch the first year, does it feel different or does it feel very similar through the whole time? Because Dan had said, go back and look at that. You won't believe how different the show is then. And I just wondered, like, was that...

Your experience. Is that your experience? We're finishing up season one right now and just sort of getting into season two.

So, like, it felt fairly consistent throughout the first season, as far as I could tell. Yeah. The look of it, for sure. I mean, maybe just the fact that people getting more comfortable, us becoming more of a well-oiled machine, like, as a crew, as a unit, sort of, like, maybe that's what feels different. Because it was a different, I mean, you know, both Yasu, the cinematographer, and I came on for the first,

for the base the second hour like it was it was an entirely different sure i mean we maintained it that was one of the things that was really important to me coming in was i i i loved the way they shot the pilot and it was very different in some ways than a traditional tv show even though there were traditional things about it like one of the things they did i felt was they shot it

And rather than the traditional overs and close ups and everything being done from the point of view of a character, they objectified it a little more like an indie film. Yeah. You know, so.

I think things like that, and Yasu and I maintained that. We wanted to maintain that. But I want, you know, it's interesting that it maintained that consistency. Tell our audience who Yasu is and who he is to you and what you're... He's a small man. He's a small man. We adopted him.

Yasu is a cinematographer of the show and somebody who I think we all love. He just shot Sterling Joe. He did indeed. Cinematographer, director of photography, DP, you know, used synonymously, et cetera, but like sort of responsible for the look of the show. And when you came on, did you have a say in his participation or was that two separate things? No, Dan had brought him...

He had done the baseball show. Pitch. Pitch. He had done Pitch. And he wasn't going to stay with Pitch. And Dan brought him on then to do Mrs. O. Okay. So talk to us about, I mean, just your connection to the show, which was, so one of my favorite things was Ken always got like these scenes with like dinner scenes or what have you, like big group scenes or what have you.

And directors have storyboards or ideas of how they want to shoot things. And a lot of the guys have their iPads and high-tech things or whatever. Ken has this little pull-out notebook, and he has these stick figures around like a 10. I can't draw. I was like, this is how you set up the shots? I was like, I can do this. I can do this.

what i felt like but it made you made it so accessible it's like like you had a stick figure here and i'm gonna point the camera here and i can come around and get it there whatnot but like it was so thought out and what you would you always sort of had like you needed to have movement and energy like you didn't want anything to be static or like sitting still what have you so i guess i'm asking a couple of different questions at once the first one's going to be how did you first how'd you first get into directing

Did you first start on 30-something? Yeah. I started directing the second season of 30-something. Wow. Do you receive as much fulfillment, and probably more now, as an actor as you did as a director? Or was it instantaneously directing is for me? Well, I thought directing was for me. And then I was just... One of the mistakes I made was...

you know, like you guys who are experiencing, you, when you come to the set, you have a very good understanding as actors do that are experienced if they think this way at all, if they're analytical, you know, a sense of, okay, this is, I know how this goes. You know, maybe if I come in from over here, it'd be better. You're talking to, and we all know, you know, different guest directors are better fits than others. So,

you know, you start encountering a couple of directors that aren't great fits and you start thinking about, you know, you start telling them ways in which they can improve, you know, the way they're doing a scene and that's, and then, uh,

Sully used to do that with me a lot. But I'll never forget Sully. You know what would work better? The baby. Not putting the baby down here. After like seven people in a scene and I thought I had it all worked out. And Sully goes, no, that's not going to happen. And Justin, I remember Justin going, okay, here we go. But you were right. But anyway, so then you go to, I start to direct. And the first day I get there, I haven't really prepped anything.

I didn't have anybody sort of teaching me that way, but I thought I knew. And I just was completely overwhelmed. Really? Like completely overwhelmed going, oh, this is really different. It's different telling somebody like, well, I could come in there. I could come in over here, which would be better. It's like, oh, everybody's looking at you and you go, oh, my God, I have no idea. And I remember the first day having a scene where two people were

the mother and a daughter were just making their bed yeah they're making a bed and i couldn't figure out how to shoot it i was just like uh and i think if they would have come to me the producers the

and said, "Do you really wanna keep doing this? Or you want us to take over?" I honestly think I would have said, "I think you should take over. I don't wanna do this anymore." - Really? - After one day. - Wow. - But then it got better. - But it was baptism by fire. Like you just sort of- - Oh, it was just brutal. It was my fault. I just, I really didn't understand that what it involved. It was such a different part of my personality. Now, after a couple of years,

You know, by the end of 30-something, I had done six episodes, and I was much happier directing. Much, much happier. I just always was a little self-conscious acting, you know,

I don't, you know, I know you guys all love to be in makeup and hair and stuff like that, but that, you know, Sully loves that. Oh, yeah. Mandy, Mandy particularly, I remember Mandy loves being touched. Four hours. When she's about to do an emotional scene, she loves to be fussing. Nice, thorough touch-up. I just never felt, I just, it became drudgery for me. I don't know how much of that was other stuff that was going on, but I...

I was much, much happier. And I have been. I don't, I don't, I really don't miss acting. You still acted though. Every once in a while when I go, God, it would be easier. This would be easier. I wouldn't have this. If I've done like, you know, some little thing for something, it's just like, oh, this is not, this is weird. Really? Yeah, it's just, I don't lose myself as an actor, which I think is what, you know, three of you have that gift. And you just, you,

You're just not in your heads all the time about it. I just couldn't get out of my head. Do you think it's also because you're married to a better actor that you decided that you wanted to event? You know, that's probably to some extent. And she let me know that. You're not the first person, Sterling. No. I wear this ring that she got me. I think it was after the...

You know, I directed about four episodes that was a ring she wanted me to wear as a director that she thought would bring me luck. And I think she always felt that I was much, I would just lose myself and be consumed directing in a way that wasn't. So she encouraged that. But she did let me know she was a better actor. Which she was. But she was a person, the same thing, that would just...

I mean, she could just... She could take flight as an actor. I never felt like I did. Well, I obviously don't know what you would be like as a director if you hadn't been an actor, but for me... That's true. For me, when...

When I got a chance to work with you, there was just a palpable difference to speak to a person who had acted before and who was this good at directing. And so far in the first season,

Most of our fondest memories are on episodes that you directed. Sure. You were such an incredible support and guide, you know, especially... I had a great... You know, I studied with... It's how old I am, but I studied with Stella Adler. Yeah. And Stella's approach to acting, as opposed to Strasberg's, what distinguished her approach, which...

the later work of Stanislavski was much more analytical. That there was always maintaining a certain perspective on acting as opposed to it being something that had to be personal internalized experience. And I think that really, you know, she had this great script analysis class. So she would, and I think that's,

probably, you know, where I come from as a director and how I use my experience as acting. You know, it has, I mean, it's great because in some ways I always found, I'm sure you guys do, that when someone who is uncomfortable with actors, as a lot of people are, because they think it's some, either they, I don't know, they infantilize actors or they're intimidated by them. So there's this weird,

interaction that begins and you go like, why? This is weird. Like either you're, are you manipulating me or I'm not stupid. It's a survival. There's a survive in a basic instinct survival mechanism when you're around someone who is, who is impersonating emotion.

Like, even though you know it's all set up and this person has been paid to be here to do this, there's almost like a lack of trust. How can you do that? It's not really happening. When I met my wife's family, they were like, well, how can you in life in general? Plus, if someone is an actor for a living...

I would do his food. How can you lie if he lies for a living? I was doing a church play one time. I was playing Deacon Klimhopper, and it was like a comedy. And the ladies knew I was a professional actor. They're like, look, you don't even have to come to rehearsal. Just come and do the play. And I was like, no, I should come to rehearsal. And I remember one time one of the ministers was praying with us beforehand.

with the church ministry for the play. And he said, like, even though they are deceiving us, Lord, please pray that they have a good, like the understanding of how people relate to actors is that we are deceivers. Yes. Rather than people who are so imbued themselves in the given circumstances of their character that they are living that truth. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? More That Was Us after this short break.

All right, it is back to school season for all of us. And while you might think it's too late to jump on the back to school bandwagon, it's never too late to start with Peloton. Whether you're just getting back into fitness or ready to tackle something new, Peloton's got training plans for everyone. No need for Randall Pearson overachiever mode. Just start when you're ready.

I love Peloton so much. The instructors are amazing and they have something for everybody. You can be a beginner. You can be an expert. You can be intermediate. You can be working on strength. You can be working on your cardiovascular fitness. You can want to meditate. Whatever it is that you are looking for,

From the treadmill to the bike to the rowing machine, Peloton has something just for you. Listen, I do a lot of traveling, and so the Peloton app goes with me wherever I go. All of their different training sessions, yoga, stretching, meditation, they're all right in my pocket on my phone. With Peloton, the possibilities are endless. With Pilates...

boxing, marathon prep, strength training, boot camps, yoga. There's so many to choose from. Want to try something totally new and different in the safety of your own space? Or are you a pro who is pushing themselves with each and every workout? No matter your experience level, Peloton has you covered.

Maybe you're into something lighter, like having a workout companion for your daily walk or squeezing in a quick meditation session to de-stress. The best part is you decide how long or how short it is. Honestly, these days, finding an hour or more for a full workout is rare. Sometimes,

I think with directors, there's some...

Often they're... Look, they haven't done it. So they've come at it from a very... Like, either they're approaching actors as some sort of instrument that they're playing or...

or they've been told that you know well they're actors so you have to handle them this way so there's that there's also this sense of like oh man these this this guy can or this woman it can shut us down any second you know if they freak out they're going to shut us down and then they try to tell you something and i always it's like wait why why what are you telling like you mean i have to like i remember a director telling me at one point you know

I think at this point he's more concerned about like his childhood. So he said, I said, I really, I have no idea what you're talking about. He said, I just need you to move a little to your left and maybe keep your shoulder down. And so, but that, I think maybe that's different now. Maybe there's less of that, you know, in terms of.

I don't know, the influence of the method or whatever. I mean, you're still looking through them. It's weird. And you feel it as an actor. You're going, just tell me. Like, I think so often, I know the old stories about don't give me a line reading. And you shouldn't give somebody a line reading. But most of the actors now...

They're so good. And they don't need, like, if you tell a really good actor, hey, you know what, if you could just move a little to your left or your right, they, okay. But if somebody comes at you and they're all like weird and stuff, then all of a sudden you're weird. And the last thing you want is to feel like you have to be self-conscious. The other thing I think is, you know, you come, you know, getting used to the fact that

an actor comes in when he's coming to work, you have to be, you're available emotionally. You're in a different state. And so, you know, I mean, you know, Mandy is some, she's, Mandy's really intense when she acts very professional and stuff. And that took me a little getting used to, oh, she doesn't hate me. She's just working. You know, so like, no, I'm, but Mandy, you know, you have to respect, you know, you have to respect. Ken Olin thought Mandy Moore hated him.

Can I say this though? But I loved her and my love for her prevailed. But Mandy, it took, everybody's different. Like, you know, some people like to be very loose and goosey and that, boom, I just do it. And other people, Mandy would like to be prepared. And you have to go, okay, and be comfortable in that. From the very beginning, she would say that you were her favorite director.

Oh, yeah. I remember in season one. Like, I was like, and I was like, because we talk about other people. And she's like, no, Ken has a love. You guys talked about other people. No, we just talk about you. Really? Really and truly. No, Mandy, I remember the first episode. Me and you in the office. Yeah, and that first day she did the scene, like, on the first episode, the couch with Milo where...

It was so different. She had to say to him, I don't, you know, I don't get your shit together. Yeah. Don't. And it was so good. And Dan, that was such a huge thing because Dan was like, you know, so worried and concerned and it was such a big deal. And I was a new director he hadn't worked with.

And Mandy like just nailed it. But I, you know, that was Mandy and I had a, you know, and then one of the, you know, Mandy and I had a shorty. I think sometimes it wasn't so much the words I said, she just wanted to hear the tone of my voice. Like if she wasn't there, like just, you know, and you know, everybody's different. Yeah. I think like never having done television before, episodic television and like to this extent, I remember meeting you in your office and I immediately was like,

oh, I feel safe with this person. Like, I know that this person is like, loves this show, is so invested in this show. I don't know what I'm doing, but like, I know if I'm with him, like, I'm going to be okay. And you doing... You were, you were safe. Totally. And doing the second episode with you and then, you're right, Sterling. It's like, I just like, I was like, if Ken is a part of it, I know we're okay. And you were just this like, touchstone person.

for me, for all of us throughout like the entirety of this series of like

I just like, I want to pick Ken's brain about this or like I would read a script and know that you were directing it. And I was like, I wonder what Ken's going to like, what he's going to have to say about this scene or where this, and I'm curious to sort of piggyback on that. Like, what was it about the show? Because to me, when I think of the show, like your fingerprints are all over it as much as ours, as much as Dan's, as much as Yasu, like you're such an indelible part of what the show, the fabric of what the show is.

And you cared so much. You cared so deeply. And like the notes you would give us as actors, like it was all so helpful. And you were so invested. And I'm just curious, like what was it about the show for you that like made it so accessible and easy for you to just like, because you just, you dove in so deep with all of us immediately. I think it was like that it was always the opportunity. I mean, that's, this is the stuff, you know, and I think sometimes like,

for myself, you know, my career and like, ah, she's, you know, like these big movies. I don't know. I watched Oppenheimer and I go, wow, that's so interesting. Like it took me a long time to reconcile myself with what really interested me and where my, it was that intimate relationship with actors and the stories that are more human and intimate. And that's

I've been fortunate in being able to do a couple of series that allowed for that. And I think the thing with This Is Us that was so extraordinary to me was we could always do the most intelligent versions of the human behavior that would take place in the context of the scene. Yes. That I think some of the

It's very rare that that opportunity, that you have that opportunity as opposed to it being somewhat reductive. I mean, so much of the work you see, I find, and now it's certainly in streaming where there's like, the material is very, is challenging or dark. I don't know that it's often as intimate or human or there's a fundamental normalcy to the characters. That's a different thing. But we could do a show about

people that are, you know, you guys were like, you know, fairly, you know, they were educated characters. They were healthy characters. They had, you know, we were doing something about, I think, a big part of the mainstream of the American experience, but we, we didn't, we, we could always challenge ourselves when we would do a scene, like what's the most intelligent version of this character and that character's behavior in a scene. And that, that

You know, it's that I loved that. And I mean, I, you know, the show was so infused with love. And man, you remember, man, I mean, guys, remember when we started? Donald Trump was fucking president, became the president. I mean, we were doing a show about people that,

believed in kindness, they believed in decency, they believed in love, they believed in treating each other or finding their way through. And we were so fortunate. I mean, I was like, I think that was one of the things that was so incredible to me was we could do it, we could explore it.

But we didn't do it in a sentimentalized, reductive way. We really tried to do it in an honest and mature way. And then, you know, you guys, it was an incredible cast. Yeah. It's a good group. And then you had, you know, Ron Seafist. Yeah. There he was, you know, the guardian angel of like, you know. And I think that's why I was so...

I like that. It just moved me, you know? And we shared that. That was pretty extraordinary. I was going to say, I want to piggyback on what Mandy was saying about feeling sort of held and safe when you were there. Because as I'm talking to you, as we're talking right now, I'm reminded of this feeling that I get.

And I have it with very few people. And it's sort of summarized in this thought. I don't think Ken is capable of telling untruths. Like, Ken can't help but say what he actually feels at all times. It got him in trouble on Twitter, now known as X from time to time, until he decided to leave the platform. But...

- By the way-- - Well, the platform left him, let's be clear. - Let's be honest. It left us all. - Left us all. But it's one of those things like what-- and it's that that I sort of admire in some of my favorite actors as well. And it makes me sort of wonder like that feeling that you felt of not being able to lose yourself is because maybe you were calling

Sometimes when I'm in a scene, I'm like, oh, I'm calling bullshit on Brown because I didn't believe it. Like, I know that was not a fully invested moment. I need to go back and do it again. And maybe you had moments of that. It was like calling bullshit on yourself that you felt like, no, you know, now I can do it better as a director than I can in that particular format. But some of the direction that you would give me, and I know we're going to talk about season one, but I can remember one thing.

I think beginning of season five, 501, was our pandemic, COVID, George Floyd episode, and you directed 501.

For sure. And it was the scene between Chrissy and I, and it was a very sort of difficult thing because there's this loving conversation of people who care about each other. Oh yeah, that was interesting. Two different races, whatnot. And she was feeling bad and I didn't want her to feel bad, whatnot, because you feeling bad takes away from what I'm going through in this particular moment. And I can remember you saying like, you're like, "Sterl, I need you to go there."

And you weren't saying like you wanted it to be sentimental or whatnot, but you're like, you can't be too nice to her in this moment. Otherwise the scene sort of loses its teeth or whatnot. And from time, you would just say these things and it was always with such love and it was always with like, you know you can do this. And like right now you're not doing exactly what you know that you need to be doing. So Sterl, I need you to, and I'd be like,

Okay. Here it comes. And it was such a joy. Going back to season one, 115, Jack Pearson's son. Oof.

- Because you gave me this piece of direction about anxiety and it was like, you know, it's- - Oh, that was great. - It's all happening inside. You're like, 'cause I feel like I was trying to physicalize it some way and you're like, "No, Sterl, it's like everything is happening inside and you know you're supposed to be in action, but you actually can't do anything, right?"

And then when Justin came and I remember, man, you had me in the corner and I was like crying. And I felt like I lost all the water inside my body. And I was like, kid, I don't know if I could do it anymore. And you were like, "Stur, I think we got it." And I'm like, "Okay, kid." But I would have done, you have those directors. I mean, we as professionals wanna do our best

but every once in a while you have that director that's like, you want to do your best for them. You are that person because you loved me as a person. You loved Randall and the totality of our world. And it was like,

the love was palpable. The love that you felt from Stella that you were talking about. Like that was something that has a lasting effect on me as a human being. And I thank you. Yes. Thank you. That was really nice. I think that's the thing. Like when you start talking about it, I remember these things. You start talking about the scene going, man, what better thing? Like that, what a challenge that was. Like for us to go, wow, that like,

"Wow, we got to work on something like that?" Like a scene where someone is actually having a breakdown. And I mean, that, you know, I learned a lot. You know, I've told you this, Sterling, working with you, because you talk about the George Floyd thing, you know, one of the things that we dealt with was race. And at the time, during the period, I read the Ta-Nehisi Coates book, and it was so interesting. You and I would talk, 'cause like,

That was just really that my relationship with you, that a truly intimate relationship, a creative relationship with you, that learning about my relationship to race has been a... And we got to touch on it. We certainly, Dan was willing to explore it and Kay and like, you know, that was an extraordinary thing. But to explore that intimately, things like that we got to do that were...

you know, that's amazing to me on network television and not in a reductive way. We didn't do it in a, and we didn't, it, it was, we could just keep going there. Like just, we could really keep going there and talking about it. It's just an amazing thing. And that's the, I mean, you know, that's the amazing thing about like getting to do a show like this. You know, I, I just, and that's what really, you know, that's what,

That's what turns me on, you know, for better or worse. That's what I love doing. - Okay, we're supposed to be recapping season. Isn't that what I'm supposed to do? Loosely? - I try to remember. - Loosely recap. - Celebrate. - A celebration, if you will. - A celebration of season one. - Are there things, oh, okay. Well, we did just have Mai on this. And I remember coming to rehearsal to watch Mandy and Milo work on "Moon Shadow" and "The Argument."

- Oh, at the end. - Can you talk a little bit about like, 'cause the idea was to shoot it in one. And I think ultimately that you probably had like two cuts in there that ultimately when it came together, but talk to us a little bit about the direction that you gave them. 'Cause I remember specifically saying like, Guy, like there's something you said, like there's overlaps and everything, but you guys have to hear what the other person is saying. - Gotta listen to each other, yeah. - Like as you're doing it. So I'm sure you took from things from you and Patty. What did you share with them?

on how to argue. No, you know what? It was weird because Dan, when he showed me this, he had this, you know, it's just so odd. You know, Dan decided he wanted to do, he wanted to do a one-er. Yeah. So we got to do a one-er. And we had done a lot of that on 30-something. We used to do a lot of, it was very much, um,

Stylistically at the time, the creators of 30-something were very interested in Woody Allen and that kind of filmmaking. And so we would do a lot of that. And then it became a thing about like, who can do the most elaborate one-er and all that stuff. And then Dan, when he came to you, he said, okay, I want to do this big argument in a one-er. I don't, I want to...

And I remember reading it and, you know, I said, Dan, the thing is that you didn't write this as a one-er. You wrote it because, you know, we did a lot of, I mean, there was a lot of editing. Our show was a lot of cutting. And he rewrote it a little bit. And I know Mandy and Milo and I, we rehearsed it. Yeah.

I don't remember. I just I think it was that thing about we had to then figure out, you know, we had to modulate it I mean Mandy and Milo were ready to go, you know, they just um, and then that was the thing I remember like and that was just always a thing of like how the movement has to feel organic and it has to feed the actor and then Working that all out and it was very very different from

'Cause we just didn't do stuff like that. Often, Dan and I would talk, we would want to stage things. It's funny that you talk about all the movements, Daryl, because one of the things we did was try not to do so much movement so that we could make the edits. - Right. - You know, but this was so different going, "Wow, we're gonna commit, you know, to doing this big, big fight." But that was, you know, normally you guys know with me, I don't like rehearsing. I think it's my attention span and stuff. And so to spend like,

I don't know, Mandy, what did we rehearse for a couple hours? Like really worked it out. And then it was really a question for them of like, let's, you know, that was a big part. Like we just can't be this thing where you just basically get to a place where you could just yell at each other and not listen. So that, that was probably the biggest adjustment was we still have to hear each other so that to take you to the next piece. But I mean,

That was really, that was cool. That was really good. That was pretty, pretty cool. I'm reminded of something that I always like. I would watch, we would rehearse the scene right before they set up the cameras and, you know, set up the lights for the crew and what have you.

And you would have your suggestions to the actors. And Ken was always very good. I can remember with Sue in particular, like, Sue, I have you over here doing this or whatnot. And Sue would be doing it. And like, he would look at somebody, he's like, you don't feel comfortable there. What would you rather be doing?

Right? And she's like, well, oh, you know, actually, if I could do it this way or whatnot. And he's like, yeah, yeah, that's better. But it wasn't better because it was what he had planned. It was better because he saw that the actor didn't feel right in the thing that he had sort of proposed and that he was willing to go easily with the proposal that the actor sort of made for themselves in that moment. Right? Did it take a while to reach that place as a director? Was it you were there pretty quickly or what? Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, it took...

I think the thing that takes a while, it takes experience as much as anything is the sense that

you're not going to die if you have to make a change. Like, that would be such a source of, like, oh my God, they're changing this. Or, oh my God, this rehearsal's taking, you know, 15 minutes and I thought it would only take five. Things like that, then once you go, whatever, you know, what are they going to do? So once I could relax with that, and then, you know, you learn the more and more that you do it, you really become more comfortable with just the geometry so that it's like,

that's not going to make that much difference. The only time I think I would resist those things would be if it affected what I thought was the emotional story we were telling. Like going, you know, wait, you're misinterpreting, I think, this moment. But most of the time it would be better. Like, what's the difference? You know, I just never, I remember like,

It's so weird. Like, I remember somebody telling me or I read something about how much David Fincher hates production. He loves prepping. He loves the preparation. And somebody was saying, well, that's because that's the only time it's perfect. And I thought, oh, God.

I wish I could do that. I wish I could sit down for that long and, you know, my little stick figures. That's why, you know, I don't work. Like that idea to me, I like, I can't stand prepping. It's like, oh, God, all that. The meetings and the stuff. I like being on the set with the actors and we'll figure it out, work it out. And it's interesting. It's such a different. Now that's, you know, when you're.

You know, when you love doing relationship kinds of material, that makes sense. And I think it just, the biggest thing was it took, it just was the experience of understanding editing and the geometry and how that works. And then once you get that

Why wouldn't it be better to accommodate something that will make the actor feel, like you said, that the bullshit meter doesn't go on, that they feel truthful, they feel emotionally engaged. It's suiting what they're, like, what's the difference? What's the difference if she's over here, you know, doing the dishes or if she's sitting at the table reading the paper, if doing the dishes is going to work better for her energy?

But mostly that was just experience. More That Was Us after these words from our sponsors.

Just like we're looking back on our first full season of That Was Us, we are also looking back on all the trips from the first season. Whether they were visiting the Pearson cabin in a place that feels like home or experiencing a new city like Randall's trip to Memphis, the Pearsons had so many memorable trips this season. And for you and your family, there are probably memorable trips still awaiting you this year. Dude, my wife has so many trips that she wants to make. We want to go home to St. Louis. We want to go to the Caribbean.

We want to go all kinds of places. And when we go as a family, in particular with our kids, it's nice to have a place where we can cook, where we can commiserate, where we can feel like home. Airbnb does exactly that.

No tricks or treats, just getting the most out of your home in a way that'll save you a little bit of headache before the holiday season officially kicks off. So why wait? Get started now on planning those last trips before the year ends. List your home on Airbnb for whoever may be looking for that perfect place to stay.

Just like we recommend hosting a podcast, we recommend hosting your home on Airbnb this holiday season. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com slash host. That's Airbnb.com slash host. I know we're supposed to be recapping season one, but are there big...

or not even big moments. Are there moments of like just the entirety of the series that really stick out to you that either were really challenging for whatever reason or things that you loved? Like what are some of the things that really stuck with you over the six seasons? I think the thing that was...

most surprising and Steve Beers and I, but like how incredibly hard from a production standpoint the show was. How we all, you guys, but you guys know this, like you guys seen, it was the intimacy, the relaxation, the behavior. But man, we were dealing with like

Little kids, lots and lots of little kids. That's brutal. Babies. I mean, a lot of babies. Constantly. New ones. They kept showing up. Always. Ones that were, you know, like, didn't want to be there. And ones that were, I mean, it was just unbelievable. Within COVID, we had to deal with dolls. We had to have fake babies. Doll babies. We had doll babies. Doll babies, which is just a disaster. And all you guys have to interact. Meanwhile,

That's not, you know, our writers. We're not exactly writing to go, you know, it's going to be really hard for them to do this scene with a baby that's crying. But they're talking about their marriage falling apart. That's okay. You know, you go, this is mind blowing. And then all of the different time periods you guys have to be in. I mean, that was incredibly difficult. From a production point of view, yeah.

And the thing we had to do always was make it seem effortless. We always had to hide the hardware. You never could make it seem like, oh my God, more babies? This is like, you know, Atlanta burns. I mean, it was like, this is so mind-blowingly difficult. Yeah.

We just talked about that with Milo about it's hard to... And the wigs. Oh, my God. Mandy with the makeup and you guys with your beards. I mean, that was really tough. It's hard to quantify for an audience. While we were all doing stuff that was only supposed to be about emotions and feelings and behavior. That was the thing, I think, overall. And then, you know, they're just... You know, I had these...

But I don't remember, you know. And then we went to these places. We went to Vietnam. That was insane. That's right. I mean, we did a lot of stuff. Tell them about what happened to you in Vietnam. You fell in the water.

When I fell in the lagoon. Was it like up to your neck? Yeah, it was a rice paddy. How far were you immersed? That was funny. Well, we were on a flood plain, which they didn't, you know, and there was Milo standing out there in his full Vietnam gear going, we gotta fucking go. We gotta fucking go. And, you know, the Vietnamese crew was like, eh.

We don't need this guy. Yeah. And meanwhile, like the water's coming up around us. And then I stepped back and I walked, I fell off the thing. And I just remember going, I'm looking, you know, I'm looking at, I don't know who I was talking to Yas or whatever. I'm looking him in the eye. And then all of a sudden I was looking at his shit and I, and I felt very warm and wet, but like, and it was like, Oh, this like, you know, I was, yeah. Yeah.

- Not a lot of prime time shows go to Vietnam to shoot. - No. - No, they don't. - Did you do all the moves? Like, 'cause we did. - Like Piru. - Yeah, we did the lake, but we also did Vegas. I don't know, you didn't do Vegas. - I didn't do Vegas. - You didn't do Vegas. - I didn't do Vegas. I didn't do the time, the first time I think went to Philly, I think. - We went to Philly. - I went the second time. - We did New York. We did the Met.

I went to New York twice. I went to New York. Oh, that was good. I remember that scene. That was cool. That was a really special. There were so many cool things. Maybe I'll go back and watch some of these. You should. It's a really good show. There's a podcast out called That Was Us that you could just re-watch and watch along. You could rate, review it, tell all your friends. Rate, review, subscribe. Yeah. All right. That sounds good. What are we supposed to recap about season one? I'm so...

- We did a lot in season one, right? Didn't a lot of stuff like-- - This is, Ken, what we can't believe is how many iconic moments from this show are-- - Happened in season one. - In season one. - Like one after the other after the other. - You're like, oh wow. - Things that you think

live across the entirety of the series happen in the first 18 episodes. It's nuts. Really? There's the reveal and see in episode two that Jack is, you know, not Grandpa and that it's Miguel, right? Then...

Oh, right. That's the end of the second episode. End of episode. I remember that. Miguel, everybody freaked out. Yes, and America just started hating Miguel. Then at the end of episode five, we realized that Jack is no longer with us. And there's the talk about the tapestry, the painting that Kevin sort of talks through in that particular moment.

We get to Randall's anxiety is mentioned in episode two. And then later on, you see like the attack start to happen. We lose William. We find out in the Thanksgiving episode that Rebecca, that Randall finds out that Rebecca knew William the whole time. That's in the first year. Yes.

I mean, it's just bonkers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. William dying. Sully having a heart attack and almost falling through. That was in the first season? All of that is in the first season. Yeah, man. You should watch the show. Wow.

- Wow. - Yeah, it's like to be reminded of-- - Then what do we do? - Exactly. - I actually don't remember. I'm really looking forward to season two and three. - We're watching now, children, like it's all coming back. - What do we do after that? We went six years, guys. - I know. - That's the other thing I go, six years? That does not, we went six years? - 106 episodes, yeah. - Yeah, man. - It's pretty wild. There was so much established in that first season that really set the tone. And as we're sort of starting to delve into season two, it's like,

So much of that groundwork was laid that like, I don't know, you're just like as an audience member, you're like, okay, well, what else? Like I'm satiated. I want to know. I'm really trying to figure out like, okay, something else is about to happen. Like I know we're about to get to Lyric, which is Deja, who's such a huge part of the show and whatnot. So I'm actually really, when I met that young lady, she was 13 years old.

My oldest son is now 13 years old and she's going to be 21 this year. Isn't that crazy? Wow. It's crazy. Yeah. She's going to be 21. And then we, I know season two, some of my favorite Ken moments are from the first time we did one, two, and three. Justin's episode, Kate's episode, your episode. Like those were...

Those were incredible. I mean, Justin's episode, I will... It's still one of my favorites. It's one of my favorites of the entirety of the series. Like, I think about it and I'm like, I can't wait to get back there and rewatch that. I haven't seen it in, you know, six years. Me too. So you're working with Justin right now. You want to tell folks what you're up to? What are you doing? Like, what else...

Oh, we do this show called Tracker, which couldn't be more different. There's no little kids. There's no babies. There's no birthday parties. Justin's like an action guy. Yeah. Is it fun? Is it fun to shoot? Yeah. I mean, it's hard because it's so different. It's not ensemble. We're out...

We're out of the studio at least six, if not seven of eight days. Whoa. Really? Always. Yeah, yeah. Whoa. It's wild. It's all locations. You know, the whole story is here's this guy that goes around the country. So his regular team is all spread out too. So he's communicating with them via Zoom, FaceTime. Yeah, which is only like three people. Yeah. Yeah. So it's all that. But it's like, you know, we wanted to do something that sort of had an old-fashioned...

PI kind of a vibe, and yet with a contemporary character psychologically and emotionally. But it's like, whoa, that's a lot of time in the van scouting. Yeah.

It's a lot of elements. I mean, you know, it's tough physically. He's doing great. You know, he's, I think he likes it. I think he likes being a number one. I mean, Justin's a superstar. Let's say he's just a superstar. Yeah, he's kind of a superstar these days. Yeah. He's, but it's arduous, man. Woof. You realize like, oh yeah, when you do a, that's why you have a team. And that's why you have a lot of stuff, you know, that takes place in the office. What I wouldn't give for a dinner scene. Yeah.

Exactly, at a table. Stick figures around a table. I mean, the one difference, though, is instead of having like eight people in a scene, most of the time it's two or three. And then there's some action stuff. It's fun. I mean, yeah, it is fun. And it's really different. And Justin and...

He's great. He's great. He's dope. And it's a big, big, big success for him. Yeah. So that's wild. Couldn't be, you know, it's so different than what we did. What do you think? Because I know our time is wrapping up and it's coming to a close. I'm going to say thank you for being here with us. Yeah, thanks for making the time. Thank you guys. Thank you for, thank you. It's really nice to see you guys. You rock, man. We love each and every particle of your being. So before I let you go, like what...

If anything, do you miss most about the show from the people to the stories? I miss being with you guys. I miss some of our conversations about scenes. I miss some of the shared sensibilities that we all, I think we did. We shared those things. I miss Dan. Yeah.

Just because of his enormous ego, you know? I find it amusing. I mean, he's really changed now. It's hard to know Dan now. He's got a healthy ego. But I just miss...

I think that was the thing. That was what, you know, the family thing. Yeah. That's something, you know, man, that's so, that's nice. People say it all. People throw it around all the time and we really had it. We really had it. Yeah, we had it all. We really did. And the great thing, you guys all from the beginning was like,

Man, this is really, we all really got what a great thing we have. That's, man, you know, that's the thing I try, you know, that's a great thing to bring to whatever we do in the future. You know, like, guys, man, it is really, really lucky in this world when you can get to work with people that you love and respect and appreciate, like, wow, we got it pretty good here. Yeah.

And we had a really, that was wonderful. The only person that was lost on was Yasu. Yeah. Yeah, Yasu. He didn't understand. Yeah. I don't think. And he didn't care. That's the thing I realized. Oh, he didn't care. I don't care. Yasu's my DP now and he's frigging awesome, you guys. He's awesome. I know. I've seen a little bit of it just, you know, um,

Dan showed me the promo, man. It looks amazing. Have you guys seen it? They haven't seen it yet. I'll show them a little something soon. Last question. Bigger crush, Mandy Moore, Susan Kelechi Watson. Go. Come on. Whenever I'm with Mandy, it's like Mandy is, it's Mandy. And then when you're with Sue. Good answer, good answer. Mandy, you know, Mandy's like my partner in this. It's different. Sue is like, you know, just...

My girl. I get it. I get it. I'll take it. Side piece. It's really... Okay, I love you guys. We love you too. We're back with another installation of the Retread segment. Today, I want to give you a quick recap of the episode, a celebration of season one with Ken Olin and, of course, us. We connected with Ken via Zoom because he is currently up in Canada working on Justin Hartley, a.k.a. Kevin Pearson's new show, Tracker.

Ken Owen served as an executive producer on the show and directed 32 episodes. Did you know that Ken Owen was an actor first? Yeah, started on 30-something. Ken told us he did not miss it at all and much prefers to work behind the camera. Hot take! Ken thought that Mandy Moore hated him. Okay, not really. Mandy just has a very focused personality.

and personal process, and Ken had to learn how to get out of the way. And of course, Ken said it best. We were doing a show about people who believed in kindness, decency, and love, and believed in treating each other with kindness or finding their way through, and we were so fortunate. It was so good to talk to Ken. So good to be with you. Thank you. That was The Retread, brought to you by Peloton.

That Was Us is filmed at The Crow and produced by Rabbit Grin Productions and Sarah Warehunt. Music by Taylor Goldsmith and Griffin Goldsmith. That was us.