The Revolutionary Power in Conflict w/ Candice Benbow
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can't bless who you pretend to be or who you compare yourself to he can only bless you and the lane that was created for you I feel that for somebody you don't need no edge entity you need boundaries what I don't need your likes I don't need your validation all I need is a God fighting for me that says all these things Chad

When I first saw the name Candice Marie Benbow, it was on a tweet. And this tweet was spicy and thoughtful and wise and convicting and upsetting. And I think that those are all of the emotions that are evoked when you open up yourself to a new way of thinking. And that new way of thinking is being challenged by those who are watching you learn in front of the world.

Candice Marie Benbow is beautiful. She is intelligent and she herself is very spicy. I like that about her. She reminds me of myself. We do not agree about everything. There are probably some people familiar with her work and familiar with what I do and think, I don't think these two should get together. There are others who are probably thinking, finally, we can have a conversation that I've been wondering within myself.

This is the beginning of what I hope will be many conversations with someone whose thoughts and belief systems are different from mine, but whose experiences and revelation resonate deeply with where I am. It's this oxymoron that we all have to deal with when we show up in the world authentically and connected to our neighbor.

So check out this foray into sisterhood that I think will leave you more open and compassionate than you were before we began. Hey girl. Hi girl, how are you? I'm great. How are you? Good. Candice, questions for you. Okay. When we talk about a woman and her power...

Can you remember the first time you felt powerful as a woman after all of the traumas and disappointments and uncertainties and insecurities we face, but to really feel settled and powerful in your identity as a woman? It didn't actually happen for me until I moved to Atlanta. It was, I think, the decision to move to Atlanta and decide that I was going to just like

move beyond all of the foolishness, all of the pain that was associated with my time in New Jersey. I decided it was between Atlanta and LA. The pandemic happened. And my grandma was like, you can go to LA.

But if you get sick, I'm not coming out there. So it was like, what do I do then? And then I also, what also led me to pick Atlanta was because I wanted to

Like I wanted to be able to cultivate my professional career, but I also wanted the parts of me that I felt like got starved because I wasn't nurturing them. And I felt like I could in Atlanta have a personal life and nurse the other parts of me that are, that need to be filled and whole so that I can really walk into the fullness of who I am.

And I moved here and things began to like, it's funny, I'll put it this way. There was a moment when I had like regular people troubles and I was excited. Like it wasn't the complications that would, you know, have me in bed for weeks or months at a time. It wasn't like catastrophic loss and heartbreak. It was just the like,

I got it. What am I going to do this weekend? Like it was the, it was that kind of like, and I, and I remember telling my friend, I was like, the bottom is here. Like I have a bottom now. And for so long, I was just swimming and drowning. And that was the moment for me that I said, you made a decision that really did change your life. Wow.

And don't ever, I actually wrote it in my journal and I have a gratitude jar.

And I put it in there and I said, don't ever forget what this feels like because you can do it. And so I've had to lean on that. I've been here since September of 2020. But then I have been sometimes I have been like, OK, Candace, you can move in a pandemic, like whatever this is, like you can you can get over that. But I think that was the moment that I was like.

I am in my power. That reminds me of...

My husband and I, once I remarried and we were like in a relationship and, you know, it's not that we have like this perfect marriage. But when you've been in some tragic, toxic situations, like the idea of when you're tired, you're grumpy. And I don't like the way you talk to me then is completely different than when you are experiencing like some like I'm about to go to jail. Like I'm on my way.

way to prison and I just I thank God for my husband for allowing me to have a bottom like you just expressed it's so funny that you said that that way because I've been working with the same therapist since January of 2016 and so when I got here one of the things that she told me I was going from like zero to like 100 100

I was dating a guy and he didn't respond to a text message. Like this, this was literally what happened. But before in those situations, they didn't respond to text messages because there was no such thing. They didn't have any business going on.

And so I said, he's cheating and this is the end of the relationship. And he had not only be cheating, he has a family on the other side of town. I don't know anything about it. Or he was at work or I said, well, it was 315 when I when I text him. She was like, let's let him be at work.

And I remembered when we talked about it two weeks later and he was at work and responded when he was able to. I told her, I said, there's something about having to remind yourself

That you're not where you are, like that, that, that it's okay. Like my friends have said to me before, like, you don't have to keep waiting for the other shoe to drop because it's on your foot. Like you don't have to, you don't have to stay there. And I think that's the work that,

that so many of us have done that even in our own work, we try to push other people to see that it's possible. Like you don't have to stay, you can make a decision and make a shift and then just be grateful that like,

I'm not swimming anymore. You know, I'm not drowning anymore. I love what you said about swimming and drowning. There's a song by Banks that's called Drowning. And it used to be a song that I listened to on repeat. And it's like, I'm drowning for you. What was happening in your world that is the literal, I guess, definition behind those words, swimming and drowning? What were those experiences like?

Yeah. So when, when my mom died, I'm an only child and my mom was my only parent. And though we have a huge family, we were each other's immediate family and everything.

And I had not ever, like, as an only child, anytime my mother would say to me, you know, I'm trying to prepare you because one day I'm not going to be here. I would start crying. I don't want to ever think of or be in or live in a world that my mother was not in. Right. So she passed unexpectedly. Like we had a conversation.

And the night before she was talking to me about the terrorist bombings, because that was the day that they had was a terrorist attack. We had a family member who was there. So she was telling me that she had got in touch with them and that they were OK.

And then we were just talking. I spirit knew God knew that it was our final conversation, but I didn't. And I remembered when my mom died or when I found out my mom died, it was like somebody took the rod that was holding me in place and just like yanked it out of me.

And I didn't know where to go. I didn't know what to do. It was like I just was there. It took a long time for me to there are some losses that happen to us that are totalizing. And I needed the room and the space to adjust to such a totalizing loss.

And it would have been okay if that was the only thing that was going on in my life at the time. But I was on a doctoral program that wasn't trying to give me and leave with an absence. I was in a relationship that I had no business being in and he decided to move on and be with someone else. I experienced sexual assault on a date.

Listening to a friend who was like, the best way that you can get over a man is to get with a new one. And all of that culminated into this moment where my friends had to literally take me to get help. Because it was the difference between

I had absolutely no idea what a day without deep, deep darkness looks like. And I don't know if I don't, I don't know if people, and I pray that everybody doesn't experience those moments, but something about, um,

experiencing such profound trauma and pain that you have absolutely no idea or belief that you will ever see goodness or light again. And I remember I was there, like, I was like, all of my best days are behind me. Like, like life cannot get any better. And that was the drowning that I had decided that,

That this was as good as it was going to be, even if I wanted it to be better, it couldn't be. And so I remembered when I started therapy, those were the analogies that we use that I was drowning and I couldn't feel my feet.

And then when things got better, but they were still sad and still difficult, she would say, "Do you feel anything? Do you feel anything under your feet?" I'm like, "Yeah, I feel something. It's there, but it's not stable."

And when we worked more and got through some things, she was like, where are you now? And I was like, I'm on land. Like I'm on land. And so we used that analogy throughout my time with her. We go back to it now. Thankfully, I have the tools now.

that I don't ever see myself getting to a point where I'm drowning again. You know, like, because...

Once you go through something like that and you actually do the work to acknowledge it and to be better and to be well, then you get to say, hey, these are some triggers. These are some experiences that are bringing other things back. These are some emotions that are familiar that I don't want to feel. And so that was really what we did. We started with drowning because that was...

It was suffocating. It was just the weight of the weight of it all was just suffocating. And I couldn't do anything but just sink under the weight of it all.

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10% off their first month at betterhelp.com slash evolve. That's B-E-T-T-E-R-H-E-L-P.com slash evolve. I wish that I could have...

maybe heard this when I was in my own drowning season. I feel like I first started drowning probably when I got pregnant. And I think I spent, no, I know I spent 10 years really drowning, like really, really drowning. And I feel like I started to swim. Look, now be my therapist. Okay. I feel like I started to swim. Yeah.

Once I got divorced and I really think I'm honestly just now coming to a place where I am on land with all of my possessions and like all of my strength. Because the thing about drowning is that like you don't just lose everything.

yourself in the water. You lose all of these hopes and dreams and ideas and thoughts and trying to like pick up those pieces and see what I've lost while drowning is not an option that most people have. And so you get stuck in this survival mode. And I knew part of what the answer to that question was going to be because I've read your book and

And as a church girl, I feel like there are a lot of things that I was able to relate to. But I do think that like your church experience and my church experience like are completely different. Yeah.

Man, so I got pregnant, right? But my parents, it sounds much like your mom, like my parents were there for me. They didn't shame me, which is a blessing that not a lot of, you know, people, girls who grew up in church experience. I wasn't excommunicated. They didn't kick me out. Like they still held me close. We had to work through all kinds of disappointments and pain and trigger, but I never felt the loss of them. And then I also never felt the,

the disapproval of our congregation fully. There were a few people wanting me to get up in front of everybody and apologize. There was somebody who sent me a blanket for my dad. They told me my baby was going to die and they sent me this blanket to wrap my baby in. And

But I was so drowning that like that none of that stuff really mattered to me because I was in such a dark space. But the things I feel like when I heard your church experience, I was like, no wonder Candace went on her own journey of faith, because some of the stuff that people said directly to you, like not through a grapevine, not through. I don't know exactly what they said, so I'm not going to accuse them of it. Like the things that people said directly to you.

I think would have made me question my faith as well. But you've gone on this journey from like church hurt into purpose and still maintaining this aspect of faith. Like, can you tell me about that? Yeah, it was this. I it's so funny because I feel people I wouldn't I was never my mama would my mama would say that the one of the one of the truest things

And, um, uh, reliable versus is train up child and the way that they should go. Um, because in this moment and in this kind of space, I don't think that there was ever a time when I was not going to be connected to church, right? Like my mother felt me kick there. And the first time my mother felt me kick, um,

was in a church called Mercy Seat. And she, Mercy Seat Holy Church, she had decided that she was not going to stand up and apologize for being pregnant with me and knew what all of that would entail. And also she was considered the one in my family that would do everything right.

And she was 26 when she got pregnant with me. But it was as if I remember her telling me like it was as if she thought that you would have thought that she was young on the way that that my family reacted. And so I spent a lot of time hearing things.

that were really rooted in people's disappointment that my mother did not fail. And my mom would always say to me, she said, they can't get to me anymore. So they're trying to get to you. And so it was years later before I realized people are

people are intentionally saying things to hurt a child because they want, they don't want to see her mother as confident and as polished and as, as resilient as she is. But as a child, you know, that stuff hurt, you know, to be used as an example in Sunday school of what it means to be a child out of wedlock.

to this day still sings. To hear so many sermons about women's dedication and devotion to God and that single mothers and women who have children are in these heartbroken circumstances because they didn't know how to wait on God. I'm looking at me like,

Well, technically, I'm the product of not waiting. So you're sitting here, you know, telling me that mother would have just loved God more than I wouldn't be here and she would be OK. And so I spent a lot of time devaluing myself.

One, in relationship to God and two, in relationship to my mother, feeling like I had somehow like spoiled her, feeling like, you know, she...

I had cheapened her in a way and and and internalizing that as a kid. Right. And and not having the words, the courage, the strength, all of those things to be able to say, like, this is this is what I heard in church. This is what I heard at home.

This is what I heard at the family cookout. This is how it's making me feel. For a long time, instead of me just developing the natural inquisitive behavior that my mom nurtured in me, especially when it came to faith and when it came to learning and asking questions,

I combine that with just kind of this like shame that like, I, I didn't get to, I didn't get to love and know deeply because of the origins of my birth. Like, and it's wild because so many people who were born in church, who were born and raised in a church and have these,

salacious, I would say, birth circumstances, there are parts of us that have trouble sometimes reconciling our identities with what we hear. And it wasn't until I went to graduate school and then went to seminary and then began to work with pastors, had conversations with them about

Have you ever thought about what this sermon sounds like to a kid who does not have both parents? Have you thought about what this sermon sounds like to a woman who, for whatever reason, had to terminate a pregnancy? And more times than not, they would be like, no, I haven't.

then I would share like, okay, well, these are some of the, these are some of the summons I heard when I was a kid. They're very much in line with what you are saying. And this is how it made me feel. Right. Um,

A lot of times it's just conversation where when you tell it and you hold them accountable, it's, oh, I didn't know. Thank you for holding me there. And I'll work to do better. And then sometimes it's just that people are so entrenched in an ideology that they don't care. You know, I was 33 when my mom died.

And pastors literally came to my house. I'm about to bury my mother. And a pastor came to the house and asked me if I knew whether or not she had she finally repaid for me.

I got to bury my mama. You know what I'm saying? Like I have to bury her. And you are asking me if I know whether or not she, she finally said that having me and getting pregnant was a mistake. She was 60 years old. You know what I'm saying? Like the kinds of conversations that had I been in a better place,

to know that like even in the midst of grief that him saying that was foolishness there's no telling where that could have taken me you know had I not had friends who literally you know one of my college sweeteners there with me

And she was like, you know, thank you for coming. We, you know, thank you. We will definitely see you at the service and usher him right out the house and then send everybody a text message. And like, nobody sees Candace.

today or tomorrow. Had I not had that and people could just hold me in that space, there's no telling what I would have heard, you know what I'm saying, or done. And I think, and I'll say this in closing, like part of church hurt is the fact, and this is one of the things that I wish people got, but we sometimes don't get it.

is that though church is fallible, right? Though it is made up of imperfect people, there's a certain expectation of care that we assume and that we believe will be present because we are talking about people's spiritual lives and spiritual health and what it means to be like Jesus in the earth.

And there are times when we've done something that has wounded people so much that they literally leave because they cannot fathom what it is like to be in a place that is so professing to be committed to the teachings of Jesus and being like him, that this kind of hurt could take place.

And I think what has to happen in those instances, not a disregarding of what it was and to the whole, like, we're not perfect, but to acknowledge and say some of the ways that we have gone about teaching and some of the ways that we have gone about preaching has wounded and we were wronged.

But what I can say is that if you partner with us and if you journey with us, it doesn't mean we may not get it wrong again. But in the community of each other, we can love and hold each other accountable and move towards reconciliation. I think there are so many people who've been hurt by the church who want to hear that.

But because they hear the other one, like when people are imperfect and your boss get on your nerves and say crazy stuff to you, but you don't quit going to work. You know, that pushes us away from the real meaningful moments of saying, you know, we didn't get it right and it hurt you and we're sorry and let's try to fix it.

You know, it's not a lot different than how we see people respond to the police violence that we see played out in our communities in which people are like, there's a few bad apples or, you know, not every cop is that way. But the cops that are bad apples and the cops that are that way are the ones we're trying to have a conversation about. I think that I think there's a pride there.

our faith communities, particularly in church, that keeps us from being willing to say, I messed that up. And we don't have a lot of grace for each other. So that pride

Pride, I think, is so dangerous. I think it's part of the reason why even, you know, what I've seen God do in my life in attracting people to, you know, woman evolve. I think a lot of it has to do with this idea of I'm not perfect. Like I'm telling you up front. Here it is. I'm not perfect. You're going to be mad at me some days. I'm going to try and fix it. I don't know if it's going to work, but I'm going to hop my way into the next thing. I think people want permission.

both honestly from the platform and in the pews to not be perfect and to be able to still be received in that way. I think what you said is so powerful, but that position of leadership and authority does require a level of humility that doesn't exist. Do you think that black titles and positions

in the church are so meaningful that the idea of offending someone or doing wrong from that position keeps them from showing up in a way that would be humble enough to say those words that you just said? Like, does this title mean so much to me that I can't allow you to see my weakness or my anger or my disappointments?

I don't think it's just that it means so much to them. I think it means so much to us too. Right. So like when you think about the origin of the black church, it was rooted in this, in this place for us to be safe together. Right. And to, and to be able to commune with God and commune with each other and

outside of the day and away from the dangers of white supremacy and the racism of the moment. And, you know, my grandma still talks about the fact of like,

it was beautiful to be at church and where a man was called boy outside of the four walls. He was Deacon Green. He was Deacon Johnson. He was Trustee Williams. Like she talked about in her home church, Childhood Church, Shiloh Baptist Church of the pastor. He's the pastor of one of the most important biggest churches, black churches in

in Winston-Salem at the time, but a white man called him boy in front of his own church. And my grandma never forgot that and what that felt like to hear and what that meant for her to see. And then she said, and then he went in there and he preached down the holy boat. And she, I mean, to hear her talk about it. So there's something about

the ways that the Black church reinforced

and restored Black dignity in moments and in spaces where larger society worked to destroy it. And we still have that, right? So like those are the parts that even with the pandemic where we are, where folks are not being able to go to church the way they used to, the way the pandemic has caused a lot of churches to have to close their doors is heartbreaking because

Because black church in all of its iterations has been a space where black dignity and black pride could flourish, even when it was complicated and even when they were strifling. You know what I'm saying? And so you have this moment where we look at you with respect.

look at you and we have bestowed a certain authority into you and we have given you permission and access to speak spiritually into our lives. That's a heavy responsibility. And I do think that unfortunately in those contexts, we've not given pastors a lot of room to be human. One, because the expectation is like,

You preaching to me about my foolishness and putting myself together. I don't need you to be having it too. You know what I'm saying? And that's not fair, right? So I think that it's this both and because we know that just as soon as a

It's unfortunate because too often it's not a confession of needing prayer when congregations find out about pastors. It's usually them being exposed, right? So then that brings its own kind of tenor and texture to the situation. But I do think that it is this unrealistic expectation that's both ways because

Because we don't have many places in this world for black people to be revered. Like for you to just be, there are times when I am in church before we left for the pandemic, where I am in awe of someone singing, you know what I'm saying? Like you ever heard somebody say in church, because everybody got every church got at least one. And you are like,

In any other context, in any other world, this voice would be heard everywhere, right? The opportunities that they would have would be endless. But because we're in the situations and circumstances that we're in,

the ability for them to have the opportunities are not there. And so Black church gives us the opportunities to thrive and flourish in meaningful ways. And I think instead of often leaning into that and fully celebrating that, we haven't, I'm guilty too, we've placed unrealistic expectations on

on the ones who actually do need us to give them a lot more grace than what we do. Oh, Candace. Oh, my word. Oh, Candace. I don't even know what to do. I don't even know where we go from there. Well, I mean, obviously I am, you know, T.D. Jake's daughter and, um,

I know very well the tightrope that you are expected to walk on in order to be this perfect reflection of what is being preached on Sunday and the tension of knowing that I'm going to fall at any moment.

And I think that one of the things that I really wanted to do when it just became clear that, you know, people were going to be attracted to the way that I speak or to the way that I write is to really be transparent about.

my own journey and my own struggle because I don't want to get on this. Like, I don't want to be on your tightrope. And I think the times that I feel the most discouraged as a pastor and a preacher are those moments where it's weird. Cause like on one hand, I don't want to be on your tightrope, but then when I do something that disappoints, you know, the more traditional people, like I, I carry that with me. Um,

Even if it's just a mistake or like I had a misslip when speaking, I went to quote one scripture and quoted something else and that mixed them together. And then there was this whole dialogue about sound doctrine in my comments. And I just, it makes me not want to do it at all because it's like, I can't, I'm practicing in front of the world. You know what I

I mean, like I am practicing with everyone watching and trying to really come to terms with my own grace and compassion for myself without breathing that in is really challenging. And I can only imagine for you because you are...

completely open and exposed about your thoughts and ideas in a way that I think is really courageous. Cause I don't, that's not my ministry. Like God does not call me to put my thoughts out onto the internet, but you do not mind sharing things that are going to ruffle feathers. You don't mind talking about somebody's favorite pastor. You don't mind talking about what's happening in the headlines and not just like to your friends. I mean,

the world and then you get the hate and do it anyway. What is happening? What to tell me? So it's so, it's so funny because I think the work, um, somebody asked me, uh, before they were like, are you called to preach? Um,

And I was like, I'm not called to preach as much as I'm called to words. Like I think that, that, um, I knew I was, I was going to write, I was called to writing. Um, before I knew anything, like I knew pen and paper and my thoughts were, um, were where I was, but, um,

In college and in grad school, it really began to crystallize to me that the work that I was really called to do was the work of a theologian. Like, how do we think differently?

about God and the world, right? And how, and specifically in the context of Black women, how do we think about ourselves, God, the world around us, and the relationship all of them have together, right? And it has been this space of having

having conversations and dialogue and doing work that I, that theologians do about creating concepts and, and thinking through theological terms and thinking through like, what does this look like? Um, I think what's different, um, is that one, we've always had men who are at the center of

of a theological conversation and inquiry. And particularly in our communities, like that is the work of largely has been Black men and Black male pastors. And who do you think you are to come and say like, so like we actually need to think about this or

the context of instead of not just it being foolishness but like what are the broader implications of this that is not well received like I mean I had a group do a three hour YouTube live refuting me like they took everything they could find off the internet and like for points

Talked about how I was wrong and how I am, you know, not only leading people, but destroying doctrine and destroying gospel, the gospel. And, you know, I watched it and was like, oh, this is interesting. One, because when we also don't know, like these are the very same conversations that happened in the church councils that give us

the doctrines that we believe, right? That like, these are conversations that happen and need to take place. But very often because it's me and I'm a Black woman and because I am not afraid to say like,

some foolishness you know that that it's a different it takes a different tenor and a different level now behind closed doors and behind behind the scenes like the conversations that I'll have with pastors are funny like they will they

They will say, like, I do not want to be ever in your crosshairs. And I'm like, well, then don't do nothing foolish. And then you won't have to be in my life. But we laugh about that. But then the bigger conversation that I have with them is that at the end of the day, for me, it is about encouraging them.

black women, especially, but women in particular to, to recognize that they don't have to surrender a certain authority about their relationship with God to someone else. Right. That like God is in an authentic, real developed, healthy relationship with,

your partner is going to speak to you first about whatever it is that like, you're not going, they're not going to call your sister and be like, can you tell her what she does? It's not going to pull you off. Right. Like, so what I tell women and what the work that I try to do is how do we work to foster healthier relationships?

with ourselves and with God so that when we hear things, right, so that when those tapes begin to play over and over and over in our heads, then we can be honest and say these thoughts, these things that I hear in sermons or these things that get projected on me don't reflect the God I know to be true.

And that's a lot of, that's heavy lifting. The other part of it, and I'll stop here, but the other part of it is that we cannot ignore and negate the ways that theological doctrine, scripture interpretation, and development of social mores and

And the the cultivation of morality impact women and girls. Right. So like there are ways that how we frame scripture, how we talk about God, how we talk about the divine, the religious in any in any space. Right.

how faith conversations take place and take shape and take root, directly impact the work and the work that girls and women believe that they can do and the way that they see themselves. In ways that the data and experiences tell us do not be out with boys and men.

And so because of that, we have to challenge the way that doctrine is harmful because there are generations of girls who grow up stunted, not because they can't do it, right? Or not because they don't have access to it, but because they have believed a lie, right?

And it's not a lie that is rooted in anything other than the fact of what it means for certain people and places and institutions to maintain power. And so I have, my mama told me when I was little, like she, she says I came out giving my, out of her, giving my little finger to the world. I was going to suggest. Yes.

On my big picture, it's the other finger. It's not the middle finger. But when I was coming out, they couldn't tell which one was which. And so she said she knew then that I was going to be a mess. And my grades, and the fact that my teachers, I was in first grade.

And my teacher picked a note from my shirt that she didn't mean me teaching her class. And she didn't mean me telling her what she wasn't doing right. And my mom said, I knew Van that you would be a force to reckon with. And I think it's just also to her credit. I saw women, I saw powerful women growing up.

I saw them challenge the sexism and patriarchy in their particular career fields. Mine just happens to be in religious institutions. But it was what I saw, you know, growing up. And I mean, we here. So I guess I guess it paid off in some way. Yeah.

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Start your free 30 day trial from audible.com/wellbeing. It's so funny because I think that like people who encounter your work

are probably going to feel similar. I think there's probably three groups of people who encounter your work. And I think it's similar to people who encounter what I do. And I don't think it's necessarily because we believe all of the same things, because I know we have some departures, but I think they're either like, finally, I'm home. She's speaking what I've been thinking or like, I'm gonna dip my toe in the water, but I don't know where this is headed or that girl going to hell if she don't get it together. Yeah.

And well, and I know that you don't even believe in it, so they don't have anywhere to send you. But I felt like when somebody is listening, like, wait, what? Pause. Listen, I don't necessarily want to get into the ways that we depart in our belief systems.

And maybe for someone that would be helpful, but I don't think that that's going to be helpful for the context of us speaking. One, because I feel like that's worthy of a much longer conversation than can take place in a podcast and is worthy of relationship, not necessarily like this wrestling conversation.

But I do think that we have to learn to be in relationship, connection, communication with people who hold different beliefs and philosophies than we do. And to do that with a level of respect and a level of room and grace that doesn't.

make the conversation adversarial how important is it to you to have conversation with people who you know we connect where we connect and we walk together in the areas where we can and then in the areas that we can't we we navigate what is that like for you that's every day I mean if you it's so funny because if you were to ask all of my friends they would tell you that I am the most um

The most extreme liberal in my faith and our faith formation, like not I'm the only one of my friends who don't believe in hell. I have a theological argument for it. But and some of them were in seminary with me and they were like, we read those books, too.

And it's a hail, you know? So we have those conversations. What has also been really important to me, I have a friend who is complete and total

opposite spectrum theologically for me and if he was here he would tell y'all i pray for her every day like i like he like he he tells me when he's like you you post this thing and then one time you tell him i played down for the next 24 hours because i got to i if you get him in at least don't you try to get in off of off of my face i like whatever but we have conversations and

which is one help to shape me theologically because the truth is that even as I do this work, it's the three groups. At some point, all three of them are going to read something, whether it's a blog or whether it's a book or they're going to listen to a podcast or they're going to watch a video. They're going to encounter... They might stay. They might not. But

But how do I formulate arguments and conversations that at least are...

are acknowledging that they are present and that they're there and that we're in that we're inclusive in in the space and so those conversations for me happen every day you know like um writing right for the theology and having conversations with my friends and where we like wrestled with

with theology, wrestle with how I see the text, the ways that I approach scripture are different than a lot of my friends. Where we land is that we know that the other is loved and is called by God.

and that Jesus is the root of each of our lives. When we can't agree on nothing else, we know that to be fact, right? That like, that that is where we are. I think what is the danger though, is that often we're in a, especially in the moment that we're in now, where I think so many people are trying to

to terms with faith outside of Western European constructs and white context, that very often there's this extreme resistance

to the other, right? Where like, you know, there are, that if you believe this, then you obviously are not saved. And if you believe this, then you have sold into a certain level of whiteness and, and I don't want to do it to you anyway.

that is what Reverend Dr. Katie Geneva Cannon, who was one of the pioneers of womanist theology before she died, we had a conversation about a year or two before she passed, and she was like, don't do white folks work for them. And the way that Black people can often tear each other apart and be divided is the work of

of supremacist structures, right? And so I tell people all the time, like, I have some fundamental non-negotiables and it is to see the humanity of all people. And we may...

how you get to certain ways to see people's humanity, you might still diverge when it comes to how they live into their identity, that they love.

We can have conversations about that, right? But like there has to be, for me, it's kind of working non-negotiables of like, you gotta be able to see the image of God in everybody. And you've gotta make room for the fact that even if I don't agree, even if I don't get it,

that people have the right, the agency to engage their lives in the way that they choose. I mean, there are friends that

that I come and I'm like, we're getting together. Like, what is this? You know what I'm saying? Like, because I know that, that we're, even though they have justified a thing, doesn't make it make sense. And it doesn't, it makes sense for who they are and who I believe God has taught them to be. And that's relationship. Like, you know,

So funny because when I when I did the the cover story and it came out, your story for Hello Beautiful, people who they be. How is she like? How how is she really beautiful?

Like, you know, like it's this idea that like that these kind of like these labels of colorless like mystery nests that don't fit into these boxes too often people don't realize like we are just as deeply committed to our identity.

to what sustains us as anybody else. You know, like I, I, I started and ended every day with a hymn, you know, like there, there are times where I know it didn't mean for me to have to turn my face to the wall and to, and, and, and to have a, a strong, um,

clear everything out of the way. It's just got to be me and Jesus right now. Like I got it. I can't hear from nobody else. I got to hear from him. Um, moments. And unfortunately, um,

We have lost the ability to honor that all of us are at most and at best are yearning and walking and following a man who only wants

humility and authenticity from us like he only wants us to be human right that like that that means they're gonna mess up that that means that I don't claim to know everything or get it right like I tell people all the time I may get to to heaven and God will be like okay no you were saying a lot of stuff down there and

I don't know where you got half of it from. You know, like that, that is, that is a true reality. And at the same time, I tell people, I would hope that I would God, I did some stuff, but I hope that you, you honored that, that, that what I was saying ultimately was to make the kingdom, um,

more expansive to include people that feel like they are outside of it, um, to, to combat. And I just feel like, I feel like the places where I may believe that I am right. And I may learn in glory that I was wrong, that I will still, it'll still be counting good because my heart and my intentions were, um, um,

And that also doesn't negate the fact that there are times where I'm in, where I have a moment with God and God's like, what you just did or what you said, that wasn't me. And I had to go back and be like, yeah, I'm sorry. I said that I was, and I think that that is what it means to model gracious accountability. Um,

And I try to do that in religion. Like I told my business. Yes, ma'am. I love it. I love my business because part of it was like, I can't hold the church accountable. I talk about the ways that the church as an institution misses the mark. If I'm not willing to be very honest and transparent about the things that I have missed it.

And the way that I will miss it because I'm human. And what does it mean to model that kind of gracious accountability so that people can do that in their own lives? But yeah, like I, people, people will be surprised and have been surprised when they get to know me or when they see like my friend circle and laugh when my friends are like,

I don't know, half time what she's talking about, you know, but like, but they also honor the work that I do as a scholar and a theologian to have these kinds of conversations that are important to have in certain spaces and that they, and they support that. Even if they don't, even if we, like you said, there are departures and those departures are,

don't mean that we cannot still walk together because we do. Those departures make both of us stronger in our relationships and help me to see my growing edges as much as it helps them to see theirs. But yeah, I think out here, I think I would hope that we are coming into a moment where there is room for

or more sisters like us like that. I remember going into writing Red Lip Theology and telling my publisher and telling my editor, I don't want people to, I don't want to write a book

that has me stand in opposition to the church because there will be a lot. And I don't want a book that makes me sound like the way that people have written off the church and who have these very antagonistic relationships with Christianity and with the church, black church. I don't want a book like that. I want a book that's honest.

Right. And I want I want a book that that reflects what I've experienced and what other people have experienced. And that and that honors the journey that some of us had to go on to distance those from that stuff so that we could come into a deeper relationship with God so that we could go back into healthier relationships with the church.

Um, but I remember feeling like that, like feeling them, like, I don't, I already am isolated and I'm already exiled in a lot of places. I don't want books.

that that reflects or justifies what people have already assumed of me and so I was really concerned about that one recipe I went before we even started and I'm so grateful that um my publisher Convergent as well as my editor Portia really walked with me through a process um she would when I would write something she would ask clarifying questions um and she would okay now

do you sound like you're throwing them all away? And I'm like, okay, but it's not what I meant. And so it was a process. And I think the reception has been with, I mean, it's a whole denomination. We just got a note a couple of weeks ago that the women's department of this denomination adopted Relithiology for March. Wow.

And so they sent a note and was like, we're ordering a book and we're sending it to every woman that's in the denomination. And I remember I responded, y'all do not cuss in it, right? I was like, I know we met this. I just want y'all to know. I was like, I do talk about this stuff. And they were like, you know, we read it. I was like, okay. I was so like, that for me,

Well, and then have pastors and ministries come to me and say, I really appreciated this book. A pastor sent me a video. I didn't even know him, but he sent me a video from a sermon that he did. He quoted, he cited and quoted a part of the book.

And I was so grateful because I said, all of these people don't agree with me and they won't. And I didn't write a book so that everyone wholesale agree with me.

but the fact that people were able to read it and know that like, she, she is still one of us. She still come in to the church. She still cares about the church. Um, I was, that made, that made the whole process of writing it. Canis, I feel like I could talk to you forever. Cause like the, it just keeps happening.

We have to do something. I feel like the Red Lip Theology crew and the Woman Evolved crew, one, a lot of them are the same. But I do think one of the things that has not happened that I would love to figure out a way to happen is the kind of conversation that a podcast does not have.

room for. So those departures, I think we don't have those conversations enough to be like, well, this is what I think. Okay, well, this is what I think. And this is how I got here. And that it's not this conclusion that has to be gathered, but

The only places that I've seen those kinds of conversations happen are in the academy, right? Like, where the kind of theological discussion where they're inside are there. I've only seen that happen in the academy. And when I think about relative theology, I think about the sisters that I encounter and I engage, a lot of them have questions. And they're like, how did you get there? Like,

okay, I, I, I chat with you right here, but I still want to agree. And, and, and those lead themselves to much more authentic, fuller conversations that I've been telling people. I, I don't think a, but the digital space gives the kind of, um,

there's a certain level of intimacy that we need to have and safety when we have those and so I've been thinking about it for a while and I was telling one girl she was like I would love for you to do a red lip theology retreat and I was like well you got to be vexed and boosted because I can't be out here y'all but when she said that I thought about

specifically for what you were just thinking about, like, what does it look like for sisters to get together and have conversations about the divergences? Yeah. And to have and to know that you can have the conversation and

And we're not going to leave the room and not be sisters. Not going to leave the room and have this antagonistic relationship. Like there's going to be respect for what you say. There's going to be respect for what I say. And our experiences get lifted and are together. But I do think that we're at a moment and we're at a time where those kinds of conversations, we need to have them. And so I've been, I have been thinking about what that would look like.

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You're really fortunate in that your mom really modeled that level of freedom of thought for you. Because I think that my family system and I think the family system of a lot of people kind of force this.

way of thinking on you. And if you don't think this way, then you run the risk of no longer being a part of the community. And so I've had my own like pulling and wrestling and you don't know how to talk to people. So I'm not going to talk to you no more within my own family system that I think has finally given me a space of autonomy and strength and independence in my own thought that I feel like I can settle into it. But I think a lot of people are afraid to

to receive what God gives freely, which is free will, free, free will to think, free will to ask questions. And so I think that people do want to see like, how do I have these conversations and still stay in community? And it does have to be modeled. And I think, I do think that this is the beginning. Um, I know that people are going to like be there. They know you and they know me and they're going to be like, what is this going to be? Somebody going to be like, y'all, you betrayed the code. Why,

why would you sit down with them? And then there's going to be other people. I think the majority of people are going to appreciate hearing that it's possible, that it's possible to have loving, respectful, honoring conversations and to know that the conversation continues. And so we got a text about how the conversation continues.

I'm with it. It has happened. And I'm excited. You have been somebody who I have, and I told you this privately, but she's been somebody who I've watched and felt close to even before we connected. And so I...

to get to know that I have helped, one, just confirm what I always thought about you, two, has just been really endearing to me. And I'm grateful for that. And so, you know, I really the hard stuff in my group chats, because I know you. So like, that is like,

my plug what y'all what y'all doing today oh y'all at work well let me tell y'all it's been a joy and i look forward to the ways that i think um that it it will continue not just for just for us and and and the the relationship we're developing but for for sisters who look to us yeah um

And I want to figure out what that looks like to model those kind of conversations and who are also looking for a certain level of just transparency as it relates to what it means to be in spaces and that it does not have to look the same. It doesn't have to look the same to me. We're not out here trying to make copies of ourselves.

but we are trying to say that what does it look like to be free and who you are and journey towards that and be free and deep in, in relationship that you have with God and thrive there. Where to come back full circle to what you said at the beginning, like I am, I am at a place where I'm in my life where I know that,

I am thriving. And it is all because the relationship I have with God and the relationship I have with myself are rooted in truth and integrity and honesty, respect and love.

And you can't, it don't mean that there aren't days that make me feel like, huh, you know, but I am thriving. And I, I, I never thought that that was, I never thought the kind of freedom I have in myself possible. And when you get here, you just want to give it to everybody. Yeah.

I just want to give it to everybody. And so I still got growing edges and I still got ways, places to go and other things to grow into, but I'm free. And to say that right now, looking back on a time when I was not is the most amazing thing. Pause. Like that's finger snaps. We're done here. We're checking out.

That was beautiful. I hope you listen back at that part of it because that's an ode to yourself that is worthy of hearing over and over again. So thank you. Thank you, girl. Thank you. Okay, I'm gonna slide into the text messages and we're gonna figure some things out. Okay. Okay, bye. Bye-bye. Child, listen, I have not said child in a long time, but that was worthy of a child.

That last part that Candice shared about where she is in her journey, I think is the hope that I pray every woman experiences. That we get to this place where we look back at our journey and our story and we see the power in it. We see the conflict. We see the trauma. We see the areas where things

got weird but then we also see those moments of salvation thank you Candice for sharing your story with us I feel like I know you better and that because I know you better I also know a piece of myself better as well

I hope that this blessed you the way that it blessed me. Child, send us a note or a comment. Let us know what you think about this episode. While you're at it, I want to talk to you. I want to know your story. I want to know about your swimming, your drowning, your standing on the land. Send an email to pod.

Podcasts at Womanevolved.com. Maybe you know a woman who has a story and she won't tell her story. Force her to tell her story. Send us her information. We will call us and tell us this. Come be on the podcast. If you want an advice question, send it to Podcasts at Womanevolved.com. You know what it is. We not new to this. We true to this. I'll see you next week.

I'm not going to stop. I think I love it, love it. Never underestimate.

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