The Co-Ed Panel w/ Kyle Campbell, George Searight, Isaiah Roberts, Kobe Campbell, Morgan DeBaun, & Stephanie Okafor
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What's up, ladies? It's your girl, Kayla Wanaki here. And can we just talk for a second about how fast this month is flying by? Like,

Like legit, I feel like I blinked and we're already halfway through it. Is anybody else just trying to catch their breath and keep up with everything? Because same sis, same. But listen, we're here now and I'm so glad you're tuning in. How's your week going? I hope you've been taking care of yourself, staying hydrated, and maybe even finding a little time to rest.

Now, I don't know about y'all, but this season has been all about balance for me. Trying to hold it all together while still making time for the things that matter. And one of my priorities right now are my two teenagers. I have a soon-to-be 16 and 14-year-old at home.

And as I gain knowledge and wisdom, it is super important to me to deposit those gems into them in real time.

I know you didn't just come here to hear about my priorities. We've got something real good for you today. You're about to hear from our co-ed panel from the Womany Boff Conference 2024. And listen, this group came through with all the gems.

We've got Kyle Campbell, Kobe Campbell, Isaiah Roberts, George Seawright, Morgan DeBond, and it's all...

it's all moderated by our girl, Pastor Stephanie E.K. Okafor. And baby, they are dropping some serious gems. So whether you're chilling at home, on your way to work, or squeezing this in between your busy day, you're about to be encouraged and challenged to surrender the things that have been weighing you down. So let's get into it. Oh, man.

It is such a pleasure to be back with you all. And today we are going to have such a powerful co-ed conversation. Now, we've been talking a little bit in the back and you all are in for a treat. Now, we're going to be speaking about faith and surrender and some of the complexities that shows up in men and in women.

And so let's get right into it. So I'm going to start off with a question. It's open and anyone can just dive right in, right? Now, faith often brings us to this place where we have to surrender control, fear, and even the need for certainty. What has that looked like in your lives, right? How has your ability to surrender shaped your relationship with God, but also shaped your lives?

You're looking at me, so I'll start. You know, I think that I had an idea of what would satisfy me in life. And I feel like I got a lot of the things I thought would satisfy me early. And I think that was God's plan really on purpose because I realized this don't satisfy me. And surrendering meant...

there is someone, God, who knows what will satisfy me more than I know, that I'm still discovering myself through the lens of Christ. And so I think surrendering meant saying, I am learning who I am through God instead of through what I feel, think, sense will satisfy me. Yeah. And Kobe, can you dig into that?

Because I think there's a beauty when you give language to the things that you thought were satisfying you. Because when you give language to it, there are people that identify with, that's what I'm pursuing right now. And so if you could just dig into that a little. Yeah.

Yes, okay, okay. She threw the ball, y'all. Now you threw the ball. And if I take my time, don't judge me, okay? You know, I want to share a little bit of my personal testimony. If you've read my book, you know this because it starts page one. But in 2013 in college, I was deeply suicidal and tried to take my life.

I had a friend, Brent Campbell, who is the twin brother of my current husband, Kyle. And man, there was a moment where I felt like God...

Is life just a cycle of looking for affirmation, getting it, and then feeling like it's not enough? And feeling like, why am I here? I remember thinking that. Like, why am I here? No one wants me here. No one loves me. No one cares about me. And I say this with sensitivity. I didn't want to die because I hated my life. I wanted to go because I was tired.

And I think that there are a lot of women in this room who are like tired. Like you don't want to hurt yourself, but you're like, God, if I don't wake up in the morning, I'll be all right.

Like, God, if something happened, if I get in a car crash today, that wouldn't be so bad. I think suicidality can be so sneaky and can be so insidious and can lead you to a place where you kind of feel like I'm slowly putting down the life and the purpose that God has for me. And many of us don't even know that we had that life and we had that purpose. And I texted my wife.

Rather, I went out partying. Sorry, y'all, I'm getting real here. I went out partying. I had some drinks. I popped some pills. And I was like, I'm going to sleep. I heard that if you take this combination, you could just go to sleep and not wake up. So I'm okay with that. I wrote my twin sister a letter. I wrote my roommates a letter. I said, sorry, y'all. Y'all gone. I'm sorry for what you're going to have to find. And I laid my head down.

I lay my head down and my phone rang and it was Brent. And Brent said, hey, I was praying for you. And the Lord told me, the Lord told me to tell you that I know that you drank that vodka and I know you took those pills. And he said, don't go to sleep because he has a purpose for your life. And you know what's crazy is when I read that text,

I didn't feel the relief that you probably think I felt. I felt embarrassed that someone knew I wanted to die. That was the first thing I felt. I felt this hope of like, ooh, there's someone out there and he's watching me. God is real. But then I also felt this embarrassment. This like, oh my God, someone knows I felt this level of pain. And so I put my phone under my pillow and I laid back down. How many of us have been shown God's grace and refused it?

God showed up and we're like, no, thank you. And I lay back down and Brent texted me again. He said, I said, don't go to sleep. I ignored it again. And then I turned my phone off and I laid it down under my pillow again. But then my phone rang and I just told you I turned my phone off and then I tried to turn it off again and it wouldn't turn off. And he texted me.

Throughout the entire night. And I went to church with him that morning. And I didn't really know much about God in this way. I just remember walking in and just laying on the floor and saying, God, I surrender. I didn't even know what I was surrendering fully to. But I knew what I was deciding to put down. I didn't know what I was picking up. But I knew what I was deciding to put down. And I knew what I was deciding to put down.

And I say this because this talks to the second level of surrender. That first week of being a Christian, it was the greatest high of my life. I was like, Jesus loves you. He's real. He's real. Like, I, oh my, like, God snatched me out of my depression with that miracle. But I'll tell you what, like a week later, I was depressed again.

And no one could make sense of it. I was depressed and I went to church and people were like, well, you're not praying enough. Well, you're not fasting enough. Well, have you been skipping Bible study? Well, are you sure there's not something you need to surrender? And I felt like I was doing everything and I was like, God, why did you save me just to drop me back off in this pit? And I just want to say to somebody that God saves you with a miracle to show the heart of who he is, but he restores you with the process. So if the feeling

goes away for a moment, it's God giving you a glimpse of what he's going to give you an eternal access to. But God wanted me to go through that process because if he would have just healed me in the morning, the moment, I would have never healed my trauma because he let me be sad because he wanted me to get curious about why the sadness was so deep and why it was so persistent and why it wouldn't let go of me because there were things that

I needed to go back to address. And God wants us to go back to address those things so that when we get the restoration of those things, we can say God restored that. Some of us got money and didn't even have knowledge that something was taken from us first, but God's taking you back to the pain so he can show you what he's restoring in you. And so that's how I got my introduction to trauma.

Sorry, girl. - It's everything you said that I, there's so many things that we need to talk about too. - Yes. - One of it is when you talked about how sneaky that voice of suicide is. - Yes. - Many times, there are people in this room, and even just by a show of courage, if you feel okay with it, that have ever struggled with suicide ideation.

around the room because it's so sneaky. It makes you feel as though it's not like you want to harm yourself, but it's what you said. I'm tired. I don't see what else is there for me. And that is the deceptive voice of the enemy. So because that man was pregnant with this, that there are people that God wanted to speak to through your testimony. You see, I want you guys

I want you guys to really feel the weight of her story because there are times that God may not speak to you directly because he spoke to you through someone's story. And in this moment, your testimony is a reminder for the women who feel as though I'm tired. God, I'm not trying to harm myself, I'm just tired. It is a lie from the pit of hell. And throughout the conference, it is the reckless love of God that is pursuing

after you and you have to embrace it. And just like what you went through, few days later you're depressed. When you leave the conference, you might experience some sadness again. It doesn't mean that what you received here wasn't right or didn't take root in your heart, but God wants to deal with the issue at its root. That is powerful, that is powerful.

That's real. That's real. And that's what I get being here. You know, okay, now we have a man's voice. Glory to God. Glory. In the midst of all of this. But you know what I was thinking? You know, when you asked that question, what do you have to surrender? I must be, I got to be real honest with you. I didn't know I had to surrender to God the things that he has so set me up for until I got busy.

this thing called loving him and serving him and doing ministry. Because I was born, raised in a church, born in a church, I think when my mama had me, I think she had me at the altar and I think I came out speaking in tongues. I don't know. But what I do know is all I've known is church. And so my journey has been

given to him based on the relationship that my mom and dad had with the Lord, which then became a part of my life. So it took a little bit of time for me to surrender to God because I didn't know what I had to surrender to him until I started to have these personal encounters with him. And it was from the personal encounters that I had with him

that I discovered what it was that I had to surrender to him. And from that came my purpose for life, for living, for doing what I do. And it's so made, it makes more sense now to me than it has ever meant now because of my journey. And I've had to surrender moments of

after moments after moment moments based on my my simple relationships with God and now where I'm at now makes more sense but I had to I had to learn what I had to surrender down through the years and it took me a minute to discover that the surrender that I had to give to the Lord was based on the purpose that he had designed for my life that's

beautiful. And you're a bishop. Yeah, that's what they say. Now, what is fascinating about this is you said you came out the womb speaking in tongues, right? But people think that, oh, that's a natural thing. You were raised in the church, so it's natural that you are

is still a part of the church. But you had to have a personal encounter for God, with God for yourself. Can you speak to what that encounter revealed to you? What was the lie it showed up? Ooh.

You know, for me, my mom told me that when she was carrying me, I was telling Kyle, when she was carrying me that she felt the anointing of the Holy Spirit in her belly while I was there. And I heard that story, I hear that story over and over and over again. But it wasn't until God set me up to be in the midst of young people who would come and serve the Lord, but we weren't sure if we really loved the Lord enough.

So it was just gathering of young people and then fellowshipping with young people, but it was until there was revival services where we had to face the question

Do you know Jesus? And when we were at revivals and when I was at revivals and when I had to answer that question whether I knew Jesus, even though I was in the church all my life, brought up in the church, but I had to come to a place where I had to answer the question, but do you know Jesus? Do you have a relationship with him? And it was in that moment that where I had to answer the question,

And I had to answer the question from a place that the enemy had tried to keep me in thinking that I did not have to do that because I was already in the right atmosphere in church. So it's like, you already saved, so why you got to be saved?

So I had to come to grips with the fact that I needed to answer the question after a few revivals. I had to say, well, wait a minute. I'm not sure I love him like I should. I'm not sure I'm serving him like I should. I'm not sure. So I had to make that confession. I confess the Lord Jesus Christ. And it was after those moments. And I say after those moments because I didn't just do it once. I had to do it a couple of times.

But that's when I figured out that this is where God wanted me to be. This is what he wanted me to do. And it made sense because I surrendered myself to him. And it wasn't a surrender based on church being present. It wasn't surrender based on my friends being with me in church. It was me personally recognizing and seeing the Lord for myself. For myself. I'll go.

I would say that, God, if you live long enough, you're going to have to surrender something new every other week. But I think one of the pivotal moments for me in my journey of surrender was surrendering shame. Specifically, in my context, I'm in corporate America. I'm not on social media or nothing like that, really. My claim to fame is being married to her.

But I had this context. I went into this organization. I was the only black person they'd ever hired. I was the first one they hired. There was a lot of racism. There were a lot of barriers. And it was really bad. But we fast forward. I got promoted eight times in five years. I broke every record and every role I ever had. Yeah. And that's the point right there. Right. Everybody's clapping. Right.

And I was 23 flying on a private jet, leading a team of lenders, doing all this great stuff. I remember I was 26. I got my first like C-level role. I got a CFO job. And the day after I got it, I was so depressed. I mean, I was close to suicide. I remember grabbing my belt and beginning to wrap it around my neck. I was so down.

And my wife, because she's her, she knew something was going on. And she's like, baby, what's wrong? And I said, man, I'm a CFO at 26. And I'm so embarrassed because I should have done it by 25. And she looked at me and she said, baby, I've been seeing things and I've been trying to let you figure it out. You're not okay. And I can remember praying

And I heard the Lord say to me, Kyle, if your shame could free you, wouldn't it have done it by now? Like if it could rescue you, you've been so low. Like wouldn't couldn't it have happened by now? Like clearly your shame is not enough to save you. And so I had to replace my shame about what I felt was broken about me with shame.

radical vulnerability. And my wife, thank God for her, but I'm in active recovery for a porn addiction. I thought I had a normal childhood, but I was molested and tortured. I didn't even tell people I was tortured. I told people that I had a bully. But my bully is in jail for life for quadruple homicide at 14.

Most of y'all's aren't, right? And so he would light fireworks in my head. He would dip my hand into fire ant piles and hold me down when I screamed. And I thought that was normal. And so there was so much of my context and my story that I'd compartmentalized. And in the moment, I had all these successes, right?

But inside I was ashamed and it didn't make sense because I'd compartmentalized. My story wasn't connected. So I had all of this anger and all of this shame and all of this bitterness at my successes and how strong I looked. But what I remembered, but didn't want to remember, was how weak I once was. And every time I climbed a new mountain, I thought I would stand there and I would finally feel strong.

And it never happened. And I started running out of mountains. And I'm like, Lord, okay. So clearly the mountain isn't where I'm going to feel strong. And so God took me back to the valleys. And so, yeah, it's a long answer to a short question. Do you want to speak into that? Because Kyle, I think...

First of all, when we often hear sexual molestation, there is a bias we have when we think women. And we're not immediately thinking the impact of that in a man's life.

Now, even with that and just what you're walking through, even till this day, what did surrender even look like in your marriage? Bringing that, like, you know, bringing those conversations and bringing that vulnerability into the marriage. What did that look like? Because I think it's so powerful when women begin to understand men better.

because there is this idea of what it's like, it's almost this flawed concept, right, of what men should be like, not knowing that they have stories. And they're also dealing with brokenness and pain the way we're processing them. And so how was it in marriage for you bringing your vulnerability to the table and surrendering the idea of what it should look like versus what it was?

It was hard. It was really hard, even with a wife who is a therapist and incredible.

There was so much about our relationship that was built around our mutual trauma. So there was space that I wasn't taking up in our relationship because I wasn't addressing any of my story. So in the real estate of our relationship, my wife had 80% of the emotional real estate and

Because I didn't have any problems. I didn't have any feelings. I didn't have any bad days. How was work today? Work today was fine. It wasn't fine. But, you know, every day. And so she's sharing and she's pouring in and I'm not. And then I have to start to understand my own story and start to share it and talk about it. And there was a disconnect.

because all of a sudden we're talking about my feelings and all of a sudden I'm saying like hey that really hurt my feelings or I don't like when you say that to me or I didn't like that or and a lot of our relationship was built on this is her space that I visit and then it had to shift to something that we shared together and that was hard it took a lot of mutual humility it also took

great community. It took men in my life who I could share with, who would hear me vent. I can hear my brother's voice right now. All right, bro, you got off your chest. The most important question we can answer right now is how do you die for your wife today?

Because you don't get to lead just in cutting the line, right? Leadership means that you got to lead in saying sorry. You got to lead in going back and repenting. It means you got to lead in finding something to repent for. Because sometimes I'm like, I didn't do nothing wrong. Well, then repent for that. Repent for the idea that you don't think you did nothing wrong. But it...

It was really hard, and I know it was hard on her because as my story became revealed, we recognized that God had put us together. And in the beginning of it, it was almost like, I don't know if there's a worse person in the universe for me to have married. It felt like God put me with the exact opposite of what I needed.

And there was this tension coming up because I had smoothed over all my rough edges because I don't have any issues. My rough edges came up and they're poking right into her wounds. And so now it's like, well, we're not even supposed to be together. This new version of you and this new version of me, we don't fit. And so the Lord had to come and be like, well, no, your marriage is for healing. The happiness will come.

But your marriage is for healing. I'm trying to do something and you need to hear what she has to say. We're going to circle back on that. But also, even in your pursuit, right, of the mountain, I'm so intrigued by Morgan because of your background, what that also looked like for you when it comes to Surrender.

Yeah, I was thinking about this as I was listening to everyone's story. For me, I started my company at 24 and raised venture funding, $12 million, and was one of very few black women in the country to do that.

And I was miserable. There were days that I could not get out of bed. I prayed for 30, 45 minutes a day in the morning to just get out of bed and get into the office. And I had, externally, it looked like I had everything together. We were winning awards. We were closing big deals. I had 100 employees, two floors in an office. And I was so unhappy. And

It wasn't until I was able to truly slow down. COVID, I think, saved my life in terms of its direction because it allowed me time to slow down. I wasn't on a plane two, three times a week. I wasn't at an event every night. I was actually able to be quiet with myself and I hadn't been quiet, I don't think ever in my life. I've always been a high achiever, always doing the next thing. That was what was expected of me. And

I moved to the beach. I left my downtown LA apartment. I moved to the beach. I was the only black girl on that entire beach every day. I went on long walks in the morning. I listened to Sarah Jakes Roberts in my ear and on YouTube. And I was in prayer with myself about...

What am I doing? And how do I take this blessing of the power of our business that we have built and renegotiate with myself and with God my own boundaries? Because I had given everything to my company. And I called up my two girlfriends, Melissa Butler from the Lip Bar and one of my good friends, Simone White.

and said, "Let's go to Costa Rica." I'd never been to Costa Rica. But it looked like a place full of peace. So I went to Costa Rica, and I had never taken a vacation in six years working as an entrepreneur. There was no such thing as days off. And I took 30 days off.

And I said, I'm going to do whatever I want for 30 days. And I'm going to sit with myself for 30 days. And I'm going to be here in nature. You know, Costa Rica is the rainforest. It's beautiful weather. Everything's organic. You're plucking, you know, literal pineapples and the

The fish man is coming. You pick out the fish. So I was just sitting one with myself and with nature. And that is truly when God said, you got to go. If you stay in Los Angeles, you are not going to make it. This journey is very long. My plan for you is lifelong.

I don't think I thought about all of those milestones, what happens after. I mean, similar to Chew, it's like, okay, well, I did it. I'm 29 and I already did it all. He was like, no, you haven't. And so I broke my lease and I moved in with my parents. I moved to Nashville, Tennessee, and everyone thought I had lost my mind.

I lived in my parents house for six months and I tried to recenter myself and ground myself in family and said what else am I building in my life?

I saved up and I bought a house five minutes away from my parents. And I bought a house that I went to each room and I sat and I prayed and had a vision of, I want this to be a room where me and my husband sit and watch a movie. I want this to be a room where I had no boyfriend, by the way, to be clear.

I want this to be a room where I sit and I paint and I paint all day every day and I get lost. I was envisioning a world outside of just my work. And it took me a few years, but through breaking through the own rules that I had imposed on myself and I felt like society had imposed on me and truly surrendering to what he had for me,

I took myself off the rat race and I said, it's gonna work itself out. I have faith and I know that it doesn't look conventional, but I have to believe that there is something more for me than just the title of a CEO.

I'm engaged and I have a beautiful baby. Congratulations, yeah. My art studio became a nursery and I'm so blessed to have made it through that. But I think when we talk about surrender and we talk about these mountaintops,

I think we are just, I grew up in the church as well and I just felt like I was so ingrained in just the constant achievement of constantly needing more and more and more and by slowing down is when I was able to actually receive what was truly ordained for me.

That's so beautiful because I think even for women, many times we feel as though we have this time period where we need to do everything. And I love it when you say God says, no, I have a lifelong vision and a plan for you. Because even for me as a mom,

Sometimes people are like panicked, like does that slow you down? What does that look like? Are you going to be able to do the things you want to do? And there are times where you want to tell the person,

no, it doesn't slow you down. You can just do everything. And you can do everything in its season. And there's a moment where you need to be slowed down for that lifelong vision and the lifelong plan. Absolutely. And I think what's been important to me in this season where I absolutely slow down. I mean, I don't say yes to almost anything. I'm so grateful to him for...

me having an alternative, a reason to say no. When you have no other reason besides your career, it can be a very lonely, lonely experience. And so I'm so grateful that I have something so beautiful and joyful of reason to say no. And just by, you know, let's do a pulse check. Any mothers in the room that sometimes feel as though you're being held back?

All around the room. And here's the beauty. There are seasons in life where you're supposed to be held back because of what God wants to do in your life, in the longevity of his plan. I remember literally last year, you know, Woman Evolve right here, I had just given birth. And

And I wanted to be here because Pastor Sarah, Pastor Tere, those are my pastors. And I wanted to be here, but I'm like, I have a newborn, so I'm going to stay home.

That was a season to slow down. And there are moments where you're feeling like, man, you know, you're having FOMO and all these things. But when you surrender to the season of your life, you experience more joy rather than going through, you know, and sometimes there's a depression and anxiety we go through because we're trying to hold on to certainty. And when you relinquish that and you surrender certainty and say, God,

okay where you have me. There's a year later that goes by and you show up where you wanted to be at anyway. And I just want to encourage the mothers in the room, surrender to the season of where God has you. You're not being held back from anything. And if you are, it's actually going to give you, there's a resistance that you need so God can launch you out further.

No, that's really good. Really good. I think the thing for me that I had to surrender is my comfortability. I don't really like being in the limelight. I kind of enjoy being in the background because that's safe for me. And I've been working for Woman Evolved or I was working for Woman Evolved for about six years before I started working.

doing whatever it is that God calls me to do. I do music, I do podcasts, but it is so much easier for me to just like sit back and be in the background because that's comfortable. But God's been dealing with my heart saying like, Isaiah, I didn't call you to be comfortable. I called you to be my chosen son. And so...

I remember I got an email earlier this year and they were asking me to serve a woman of all. So I'm assuming they're talking about merchandise because that's what I've been doing. And, you know, they're like, okay, yeah, we're going to need a headshot in a bio. I'm like, for merchandise? What are we talking about? And, you know, they're asking for more questions. I'm like, hey, you know what? Just for clarity, what exactly do y'all want me to do? And they're like, oh, you're going to be speaking. I'm like,

When were y'all going to tell me that? And you know, I do music, so like that's what I'm more comfortable with. So when God asked me to leave Woman Evolve earlier this year, I thought maybe I would be coming back in like some sort of songwriting role. And you know, even that's comfortable for me because at least I don't got to be on the stage. But this is way worse. So I'm understanding like, God, you're making me stand on it. Like if I'm trying to, if I'm praying for, you know, this boldness, then I got to really work on it. So, um,

But the thing that I think made me so in love with comfortability is because I was afraid. It's two things. For one, coming from such a lineage of greatness and

it can be daunting to think like, Isaiah, this is up next for you. But two things have to happen. I think for one, I have to recognize my own uniqueness and then recognize that there's covenant connected to my family. And so the anointing doesn't stop at a generation. We've seen it with my granddad and then they went down to my madre and then, you know, my beautiful mom is here and she's an incredible worship leader. And then obviously my dad is.

Pastor Torey Roberts. Like, that's amazing. And I've seen how the anointing has flowed to me and to Taya and Ren and Malachi and Kenzie and Ella. And, um, God has shown me the faithfulness when I decided to get out of being comfortable. Um, and then the other thing was, I think I was afraid to, um,

be out in spaces like this and be in a role of ministry because I was dealing with sin in my life. You know, I've been, you know, struggling with sexual lust. I was struggling with pornography addiction. And so it made sense for me to try to hide that and not be out in spaces like this because I didn't feel worthy of being chosen by God.

not realizing that Isaiah, you're free from sexual lust. You're free from porn addiction. So this comfortability that you've had with hiding from yourself no longer serves me. And so, yeah, stepping into a moment like this, I think affirms what God told me. And now I'm able to be free with it. That's beautiful. Wow. Amen.

Kobe, you know, going from your story, because Zay, you touched on shame, and that has been a topic that we've all been sharing. And so going from your story to now being a mental health professional, how would you speak to shame?

Wow. Well, first I would define shame. So the incredible Irene Rollins talks about how all shame is not bad. And truly, it is true. Shame is an emotion that tells us that our ability to connect is at risk.

Shame is an emotion that tells us you might lose relationship if you continue to operate in this way. You might lose relationship if you continue to speak this way, talk this way. There's certain people who won't tolerate relationship with you if you stay the way you are in this, right? But toxic shame, what it does, it applies that real principle to inaccurate situations, right? So...

Scripture says God is always with us. He'll never forsake us if we make our bed in hell, that he will be there with us, that even darkness is light to him. And so we have, there's a standard God calls us to, but the enemy wants us to think that

Even if I want God, as long as I've done this thing, I'm at risk of losing my relationship with God. But the reality is relationship with God is always accessible to us. It's always extended to us. And I think that for many of us, we were taught in our childhood, right? If I cry, go to your room. Lost connection.

Right? If I said that hurt my feeling, I cut you off. Friendship over. Lost connection. So not only have we memorized these principles cognitively, we've memorized these principles in our bodies like Dr. Anita said that we feel

a visceral fear that I will lose connection if I tell the truth, but we'll never know if fear is telling the truth if we don't act in opposition to it. So we have to feel the fear and acknowledge it so that we can understand why it's there, but then why

we speak back to the fear through our action. And that's not just like a thought or a cute phrase. It's literally how we rewire the brain, right? That some of us, we want to feel different before we do something, but we feel different because we did something. And so for many of us, we feel the shame of, look at how many people in here.

There was still, when Pastor Stephanie said, I want you to share part of your story, there was still a voice in my head that said, you can't tell that many people who's going to trust you as a professional, who's going to trust, but God will take the things of your life that were meant to be shameful and use it to validate you and to actually manifest.

Use it as something that makes you more trustworthy because you are someone who went through it and someone who is willing to be honest about your experience. So it's important for us to realize shame is real, but it's not always telling us the truth. And it's not always telling us the truth about the situation that we're in.

Now, how would you say that showed up for you in marriage? Because we're going to circle back. What he shared, even when he said in the beginning, the Lord told him the marriage is for healing. Now we have many women, when we talk about relationships and marriage, nobody wants to hear it's for healing. It's for good times, travel, you know, out with bae. And so how would

How was it on your end as the woman making room for him and dealing even with that topic of shame? Why are you being messy?

Why are you being messy? It was difficult for many reasons, but you know, and many times I'm being real. People don't always love when we're real about marriage 'cause we want the fairy tale, but Jesus didn't live a fairy tale. So why do you think you gonna live a fairy tale? Anywho, I was like, God, why? Why am I doing this? Why do I need to make, let me go back.

wanted Kyle to restore every relational wound in every relational context. I realized that in many ways I wanted, we got married young. We got engaged at 22. What? We

We got engaged at 22, married at 23, pregnant by 24, and first kid by 24, right? Our friends were in grad school, and we over here trying to figure out how do you pay a bill. Like, we... I wanted him to be my savior. And because you have no problems...

and I got lots of problems, you're gonna be my problem solver. You're gonna be the person who's responsible for making me feel safe and secure in every way. And I remember being like, God, I don't know if I like this. Can I quit? Can we not do this? And the Lord said this to me, and I'm living in it now. He said, the woman you're called to be and the woman Kyle's called to be are meant to be together.

you're not going to feel it right now because he said that his rough edges were sticking into my wounds, but I would have never addressed those wounds on my own unless there was something irritating them. And so there was a daily irritation. There was a daily friction that would not let me escape the healing that God was calling me to. But also I want to say this, God taught me that men are precious to him.

We think about all the sweet and syrupy words and we think about women oftentimes. Kyle is precious to God. Kyle is precious. God cares about Kyle's emotion. The standards of the world are not the standards that God has called Kyle to experience like John. God has called Kyle to lay his head on his chest. God has called Kyle to deep and intimate relationship with

And so I had to realize to be softer to him, not because, you know, I'm moving in my feminine or whatever, because I had to see that he was just as precious to God as I was.

And it was okay for his feelings to be hurt because he's a person. It was okay for him to cry because he's sad because he's a person. And I found so much joy in just loving Kyle and just loving who he is and being silly and enjoying life together and being, it feels like God grew us up spiritually so we could experience childlike joy together.

You're really ministering. You're helping me because I never saw that as a healing. And I've been married for 48 years and this year I'll be 49 years I've been married to the same woman consecutively in a row. And I've not seen it as a healing, but as you describe this,

I'm discovering now that it was joy, it was greatness, it was complimentary to each other, but it was healing because she had some fear, she had some stress. I had some fears and some stress. I asked her to marry me. I was 20 when we got married. She was 18. Lord Jesus, God has been good to us. Glory to God. Amen.

And we still, we're still making it happen. But we're making it happen because something you said about how precious Carl is. My wife is here. How precious I am. Yes. Yeah, that was, and

And my boo, Mary, she does cherish me. She thinks I'm precious as well. And I think that's so powerful in describing true relationship, husband and wife. And I know we got some singles out there as well, but that is so powerful. And I just know that you brought healing to marriages.

not just to marriages, but to people who have struggled with their own crises in their lives as they grew up, but now you've helped us to figure out how we can

push it up, bring it all together and make it work. That's what I kind of picked up. I want to jump in and say one thing. I should hop into that because, you know, we can hear like my wife saying good things about me. I love that. You keep doing that. But, you know, there were some years where she didn't have much good to say about me. Some of that was her. Most of that was me.

She follows me now. She allows me to lead her, but I was not always worthy of leading her. I was not always worthy of being followed. We had a tension because I wanted her to follow me and I wasn't going anywhere. And she's like, well, why am I following you and telling you where to go? So it can't be both. Yeah.

That was offensive to me in the beginning. And I can remember clear as day. We had an argument. And the one thing we won't do, now I might lie about something. I'll never lie on God. So we had an argument. And she said, you need to go pray about this. And I was like, okay. And I was like, all right, I actually will pray about it. But I knew I was right. So I'm like, God, go have my back. And I'm going to come back and say the Lord said. And the Lord told me, Kyle,

For every king, there is a prophet. For every king in scripture, there is a prophet. The king will lose his kingdom and lose the promise of God when he stops listening to the prophet. You are not respecting the prophet I've sent to you. She's right. No, y'all sit down. Y'all sit down. Yes.

And I was stuck because I was like, well, no, that's me. That's not biblical. Let me really test that. And I kept flipping and flipping. I'm like, oh, my God, it's everywhere. And it took me down a rabbit hole. And I just want to free some of the men in the room because one of the things I had to surrender was poor biblical literacy and poor theology. My God. Genesis 2.18, it says that God said it's not good for man to be alone. I'm going to make a helper for him. Helper.

That word helper is the same. Well, it's a unique combining of two Hebrew words. It's actually etzer connecto. The etzer is helper in the way that in the Psalms, David says, the Lord is my helper. So it's a reference to a helper who is in many ways superior to you, not beneath you.

And connecto is another word that means to come against in helpful opposition. So together, it's the helper that God sends us is a woman who is the helper who will come against you. The helper who will give constructive criticism, almost to prop you up like two planks leaning together. If you're standing straight, they fall over. But with the tension together, they can stand, right?

And so I had to learn that we were having tension and opposition and I felt like it was unbiblical when she didn't listen to what I said, when she didn't do exactly what I said, what I wanted her to do it. And I was like, actually, no, I missed this up because this woman is not here to help me do laundry or help me pick up my keys or my wallet from the ground. She's here to help me because there's a tension that I need to stand.

And if she's not against me in some way, I'll fall over. I need tension. Men need some tension. Now, I'm not saying be mean, but I am saying I had to surrender the idea that my wife is just here to advance my mission. Now, I know she's going to make some more money than me, and she's going to be the next Oprah, and I want the Stedman treatment. Y'all buy them books.

Yeah, first of all, there is so much in this. And even as the women went nuts, they said, that's what I've been trying to tell my man.

Because the beauty is even when you talk about the woman as a helper, I think for so long women have been made to feel as less than. But even when you look at the original language, the word, like you said, that God uses is the word he uses for himself. Even when speaking to the Israelites. And so just like you said, God is not inferior to the people, right? But it's also not a thing of where...

because part of your story is you both stuck it out through the process. And I think there is so much beauty in that because there are times where you're like, I know I'm right. But even if you could see it or not, there was a staying power that you had in those moments. And you,

and even let him know, like you go deal with that with the Lord, right? And so it's not that as women, we just look at it like, oh, he is just so ignorant. You know, I need to get out of here. But it's how we handle those moments because again, there's such a beauty when we do family God's way. And so I love that you shared that. That's beautiful. Can I jump in real quick?

I think another thing that helped with staying in the process was reorienting that his healing was for him and not for him to be better for me. That his healing was just for him.

It was like God wants him to be healed so that he can experience healing, so he can have evidence of God's character. And part of the reason why I wanted things to speed up is I wanted him to get healed quicker so he could be more better for me, so he could be more compliant to my will, so he could make me feel more loved, make me feel more secure. And God really challenged me to say,

Kyle may actually be healed and it may not mean that he gives you what you want. So do you want him to be healed if he doesn't give you what you want at the end of the process? Do you care about him enough to allow him to experience the redemptive power of the blood of Jesus Christ even if it doesn't benefit you personally? I think that

he slowed me down to say, God, however long it takes for him to experience it, take your time because maybe this is a sign that I need to be looking to you for those things that I'm trying to pull out of him. Come on, y'all.

Lord have mercy. And that selflessness. That's powerful. Wow. Morgan, you're engaged with all this talk about marriage. I know. I wish she was here. I'm like, where are you at? What do you feel like you are surrendering to even as you think about what marriage is going to look like?

I'll be honest, I wasn't fully sure that I would ever find someone to marry despite walking in faith and speaking it out loud and creating space for it. I wasn't sure that I was going to find someone that met my same energy and had the same values that I did. And so when I found him and he found me,

I think that we were so just happy to be together. We didn't want to mess it up. We didn't want to necessarily rush getting married. We didn't want to... We had a baby before we got engaged. We were like, oh, this is my person. Like, we're good to go. But we...

marriage was something that is very sacred and I think for us we've just been very cautious about disrupting our flow and so we both went to therapy individually and together we really prayed together about how are we going to be as a couple as a husband and wife which is very different and I struggled with it as an independent woman I struggled with this concept of

I built everything on my own. I did everything on my own for so long. I was raised to be an independent woman. So it took a long time for me to say, oh, I get it. He used to get so angry with me because I would say stuff like, oh, you don't need to come to this conference with me. Like, I got it. Like, I'm good. He's like, I want to be there with you.

We are a team. We would work on brand deals and he owns a video production team and I'd be like, oh no, you don't have to film this. He's like, what are you talking about? We are a team. He just kept repeating that and repeating that and repeating it and it was really hard for me to hear it. I had to do my own work and I think

Technically, I'm still single until we're married, right? I'm in a weird gray zone right now, and I'm trying to use this time and this small window and season of really making sure I'm transitioning into the mindset of we and togetherness. And it's not easy. It's not an easy transition to go from independent to we.

Now, I relate to that. I've been independent for most of my life. And when I got married, you know, my husband is someone who will always show up for you. And it was hard for me to receive that. And I remember one time in prayer and something I received was your femininity is your beauty.

So being able to receive, being able to not always feel like you need to be this strong, whatever, that is your beauty, even with your husband. And so it's a process, you know? And even I think for women, whether you are single or engaged, marriage is not the door that you enter because you reach perfection, right? It is the door that shapes you. Because I believe that anything God has his hand on,

And marriage is an institution God has his hand on. It brings you into his image. And so there is something in your spouse that is designed to heal you. And it's designed to bring you even into more of the likeness of Jesus Christ. And that is a process. And that is going to look ugly sometimes. And I think us being able to surrender to that is a beautiful process in itself. Now, Zayn.

What would you say for your generation that needs to be surrendered when we think about what relationships really speak to? That's a great question. And I've had to practice this in my relationships before. So, you know, I find a beautiful young lady, you know, somebody that's God-fearing, someone that's walking in her purpose. And it seems right. And it is right. And God will be like, okay, you like that? Cool. Put on an altar.

I'm like, this is, I thought, you know, there were confirmations. I thought you said, he's like, yeah, but if you love her more than you love me, then we have a problem. It's almost like Abraham and Isaac, you know, that was the thing that he wanted so bad. And God was like, okay, I'm going to give it to you. But at the end of the day, if your heart is not with me first, you can't even steward this correctly. Yeah.

So when I'm looking at relationship now, I'm like, can I follow God better with this person? Are we both serving God and realigning that path? So I think that we have to, when it says keep God first in relationships, we kind of say that like frivolously, but that's really what it is. If that's not the foundation, if you cannot be a better man of God or a better woman of God with that person that you're with,

And if you're not willing to lay it down immediately when God says so, there's a codependency that you have with the relationship and you're not fully dependent on God still. Now, when you're married, that's different. But I'm saying like when you're looking for that person, it still has to be God first. That has to be the priority. That's powerful. That's powerful. Can we give it up to our panelists today that we need to close out in prayer? Can we all just stand together? Absolutely.

There was a lot that was shared that I believe it touched a lot of areas in our lives that it's easier for us to want to hide from. When we talk about shame, when we talk about suicide ideation, that these are areas that the Lord wants to go on a journey with you, that it doesn't happen overnight. It doesn't just happen where it's like, boom, it's done. But I love what you said about how God will show you his heart.

And then he takes you through the process of healing. And so if there's anyone in this place and you are hiding, you know, maybe you connect to Kyle and you connect to Morgan's story where you're chasing after success because of what you're running from.

And so there might be you and just lift up your hand if you know that I'm just speaking to you. And there's some where you are, you hear those thoughts that are telling you, hey, it's okay to be tired. Just end it. Just lift up your hands as well. I believe all throughout Women Evolve, God has been moving so powerfully. And I believe that he is after the mind even right now.

to bring down strongholds of the mind, that these are thoughts that you've had and you've just settled with. Like, it's okay if I feel this way. It's okay if I just, you know, feel shame about this and tell nobody. But God wants you to live in freedom. He wants you to live in a way that you're bold and you're confident. And yes, you're going to go through moments, but he wants to journey through that with you. And so if you know we're just speaking to you, just lift up your hand and we're going to pray with you.

Heavenly Father, we just thank you for what is taking place in the room. We thank you, Lord God, that even for the power of conversation and the power in our testimonies. I thank you, Lord, that you are ministering to the hearts of your daughters and the minds of your daughters. And you are bringing down thoughts and arguments that have been fortified over the years. Amen.

and you are revealing the lies of the enemy right now. I thank you, Lord, that they're going to embrace life. They're going to embrace that they will find their sustaining power in you. They will find their strength, not in pursuing another mountain, not in pursuing another goal, but they will find that in you. And I pray, Lord, that you would give them the endurance to go through the process.

that if it doesn't happen overnight does not mean it didn't work, but it means that you want to journey with them because you love them.

And I thank you, Lord, for the decisions that are being made for many to come out of their comfort zone. Because there is an anointing that you want to pull out of them that is going to have generational impact. I thank you, Lord, that when they're making that hard decision, they will see their grandchildren connected to it. They will see their great-grandchildren connected to it. I thank you, Lord, that when they choose life over

over death, they would realize there are voices connected to what God is doing in and through them. And that just like this moment that released hope, that their lives are going to be vessels of hope for many to glean from. And so Lord, only you can do this in the lives of your people. And so we say, Holy Spirit, have your way in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. Amen.