Take Healing Seriously w/ Laura Lentz
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You may not have the friends, you may not have the partner, but I just want you to know that just because you don't have them doesn't mean that you don't have God. Take that moment and receive God's love for you. And then ask God what's next. Our whole life was the church. Our whole life was ministry. And so when this happened, I was angry at God for a really long time. I refused to be angry and bitter. I just didn't want that to stay in my heart forever.

We are back with another episode of the Woman Evolved Podcast. I am your host, Sarah Jakes-Roberts.

And let's see, it's Monday and I'm going to start preparing for these. So I'm not always trying to figure out what's going on with my life. As soon as you pick up the phone, so ghetto. But I am, my husband, it's November. Okay, boom. My husband and I celebrate 10 years of marriage this month, which I am really excited about. This is airing probably after the election. I have no idea who has won. I'm stressed.

I'm so stressed because I feel like either way, like I feel like no one's going to be a solution to all of the issues we face in the world. And my husband preached a message on Sunday at the Potter's House Dallas called On Your Marks, Get Ready, Set, Go. On Your Marks, Ready, Set, Go. And the message was ultimately about how it is the responsibility of the kingdom to really respond to the crisis we see in the world, not to elect one person to carry all of the weight. And

And yet this has been the most divisive election that I think we've seen in our nation. Obviously, my lifespan is short in the context of how long America has been established, but I think everyone has acknowledged just how divisive it is.

And so my prayer is that regardless of who is in office, by the time you're hearing this, that you are in your office, that you are seated squarely at the desk of your destiny and that you are in full recognition that destiny is not just what you do, but who you are willing to become. I pray that you are resisting any temptation

temptations, inclinations that draw you away from God, that you are actively attacking anything that stands in the way of your connection with God. And that in exchange, that God is allowing you to carry his light, his word, his creativity, his plans for wherever you are into all that you do. So-

I'm praying and I am looking forward to how we settle into whatever this new normal is going to be. I have had, I had a good weekend. Oh my goodness. So I took an exam in class in one of my classes and I spent more time stressing and studying for the exam than the actual exam was hard. Saturday, I got to a point where I was like, listen, I have until Sunday at midnight to take this test.

And I'm not going to know any more than I know right now. I've done all the studying I can do. There's still some material that just is not clicking for me. I've watched YouTube videos. I've looked it up on TikTok. I understand as much as I can possibly understand about this subject matter. I'm going to take the test and see what happens.

I took the test. I don't know what I got on it. But what I will say is that stressing over the test, studying for the test was harder than actually taking the test. I'm not saying by no means that I knew every single answer. There were 70 questions, but I felt pretty confident about how I did. I have an A in that class. And I'm trying also not to put the same pressure on myself to

perform well, but to really be okay with taking my time and just giving what I have and learning. So yeah, that was my weekend. Friday, Ella's in Cheers. So we have basketball games, Kenzie's in Drivers Ed. We did communion. Oh my goodness. We had a family communion. So one of the things that was...

I think an unspoken prayer that God answered in the existence of my husband is just an at-home spiritual covering and leadership for our children. Though I am a preacher, though I've been blessed to share my

the revelation of who God has been in my life and who I believe God can be in the lives of other people, I actually feel pretty shy about my relationship with God. I think a lot of it has to do with not really being validated or affirmed in my younger years, but still having this

relationship with God be cultivated that I felt like only I would understand. And so I am learning to be just more open about my relationship with God, just like on a casual level. This is not an issue that my husband possesses. My husband will be like walking around the house, like he'll just be talking regularly and then just like start speaking in tongues or like he just...

This is not his issue. So anyways, we have family communion and we all take the time to talk about how our relationship with God is, how we are doing. And then we take communion and we break anything that we know has been broken on the cross. And we receive the wholeness of Jesus and the new covenant and being in relationship with the Lord. And my husband says something during communion that really stuck with me.

And we're constantly explaining communion to Ella because as she grows and learns, she can understand it more and more in a deeper manner. And so my husband was telling her, like she knows Jesus died on the cross for her sins. And my husband goes, sin is not what you did. It's what's in you that made you do it. And when my husband said that,

I think I know this, but there was something about the sin isn't necessarily what you did. And I think this is really important because if we only make sin about what you do, when Jesus says that, you know, in the scripture, like I say, if you commit adultery in your mind, that that's a sin, it's what's inside of you that produces the sin that needs to be acknowledged. And Jesus came so that what's inside of you could be healed so that you don't continue to do the same actions over and over again. And that really blessed me.

Man, and I think it's going to really, really lay a beautiful foundation for this episode. But when we don't acknowledge what's happening inside of us, we can do all that we can to, you know, cognitively change what we're doing. But until we have a new mindset, until we have repented and really changed ourselves,

the way that we show up in the world, we may stop that behavior and exchange it for another. And so the humility to constantly ask God like David to search my heart. David was so far in sin that he didn't even realize how off track he was until someone presented his life before him. And that can happen to all of us where we just end up in a situation where

we are someone that we don't even recognize. And so taking the time to really ask God, who am I? What's inside of me that could produce sin that keeps me away from you, that distances me? I did this in my own prayer time over the weekend and PT's message on Sunday just really reiterated what I felt in my prayer time. But I feel like one of the things that God is highlighting for me is offense, where

We have led a lot of people through our different teams through the book by John Bevere, The Bait of Satan, and it's ultimately about offense. And I've been nursing a few wounds that I've been triggered lately by different things that have happened. And I can feel myself pulling back.

I can feel myself being distrusting, being more insecure and being accepting of that. Just like feeling safe within this, like double checking, being double minded. Oh, that's ugly. But like, I can feel myself shutting down. And so

I started praying into those areas of offense and praying for those people who I feel have offended me or hurt me in some way. And the bait of Satan talks all about this. And so I don't know why I was saying this, but at the end of the day, and PT's message leading into that, I just want my heart to be pure before I do anything.

before God. I want to see myself the way that God sees me. And I want God to have full capacity and full residency in my life. And I realized that if I like put some yellow tape around one specific area, yellow tape and say, do not enter, that I'm not just keeping people out, but I'm keeping the presence of God out as well. And so I am leaning into healing in that way. You've minded my business. Let me mind yours. Yeah.

This week's question is so good. Let me play it for you and then let's get into it. Hey, Sarah, I really need your advice. So my dad passed away when I was 13 years old. And here I am seven years later at 21, still in the grieving process. And the thing is, it's hard for me to find joy and excitement about these achievements and allow myself to take the man on the inside because he even physically hit a witness down with me.

During the problem with the book tour, I was involved in the launch team, and I remember when we were all on Zoom and everyone was sharing their thoughts. I wanted to read a part that really stood out to me, but I was too shy to do so. But in the book, you said you feel trapped inside your life regardless of how many things should be a choice. And then in the middle of your most recent assignment, you said there can be so much weight on you that it won't feel like success, and a win doesn't always feel like a win.

And ever since I read your book, and since I didn't acknowledge it back when I had the chance, it keeps replaying in my head to this day. And you keep reading my mail. But on March 2nd of 2025, I'll be graduating college as a first-gen graduate, first daughter of my mom's four girls, and the second granddaughter of my grandmother's 11 grandchildren.

And yes, I'm so full of joy because God has been with me all along the way. And I know I'm never wrong. But it's so hard trying to get through grief and anxiety and the fact that literally everyone is counting on me.

When I graduated high school, I was so happy for the day to come. Only for the day to arrive and the anxiety healing so hard, I could barely walk out onto the field without thinking about my dad. My entire body was shaking and I feel like as happy as I am about graduating college, even though I have so much support and so many smiling faces surrounding me, on the outside I'd be smiling too, but on the inside I'd be torn about my dad.

And when the day comes, I feel like the hurt and pain is going to hit me all over again. I often still have big breakdowns and I feel a little relieved. But it's like I live in a moment of happiness just at this time. And I'm more than proud of myself for sure. But the emotions hit me. And I think it's because I haven't taken the time to sit and grieve at all. Because when one thing is done, I'm always looking for another thing to accomplish. And it's like if I sit too long, I get stuck.

And maybe I should try more grief therapy because in a way it's tripping me from feeling it during successful moments. But then I'm like, I'm not such an okay person. But here I am telling you and I don't even know you in person, but I know you're in my head and it's like, you just get us. And I don't know. Coming back, I may have to update. But

There's a lot I like about this question because it speaks to us having achievement addiction.

I want to first of all say that I'm sorry for your loss. I know that on paper it seems like it's something that happened a long time ago, but one thing that Dr. Anita shared about grief that has always stuck with me is that part of the reason why grief feels like such a long process is

is because each time we have a new experience where we wanted that person there or that person should have been there in our estimation, it's losing them all over again because you're losing the fact that they're not present in that moment, even though you know that they've been gone for some time as you experience new life.

I mean, because we're all we're always thinking ahead. Right. And we're always thinking about that moment we get married, that moment we graduate, that moment when we have children. And when that person isn't in those moments the way that we imagine they would be, we have to grieve the reality of standing in a moment where we thought that person would be there. I like that you mentioned you don't know whether or not you should get therapy. I think whenever we start wondering whether or not we should get therapy, it's probably time for us at least to start thinking.

you know, asking God and leaning into the possibility that there's something that's, my father would say, kicking up underneath that blanket that we should probably acknowledge. I will tell you that I had a hard time, and I've shared this, I've had a hard time settling into big moments, into successful moments. And I really had to ask myself a few questions that I hope that you'll ask yourself as well.

The first thing I want you to ask yourself is if I settled into this moment, if I allowed myself to be fully present instead of moving on to the next thing, what do I imagine I would feel or what do I think I should be feeling in this moment?

I should be so happy I'm bursting at the seams. I should be so excited that there's a smile all over my face. Like, what is it that you think you should be feeling right now? And then the second thing I would ask is what's keeping you from feeling it? Like in just whatever comes to mind, like don't make this hard. When I ask myself these questions, I'll say the first thing that comes to mind is like you don't deserve it.

You aren't good enough. You didn't earn it or it really wasn't that good. Like there's still so much more for you to do that you can't be excited or celebrate this moment. Like answer that question. And then I think you have to be willing to ask yourself whether or not you have a realistic. I want to say this right. I want you to ask yourself whether or not you have a realistic goal.

perspective of your journey. I want you to ask yourself, do you have an insatiable need to achieve, achieve, achieve because you don't feel worthy, which means you're never going to have that feeling that you want to have because nothing's going to be enough.

And I'm not saying that this is your problem, but if it's like my problem, the answer would be no. That because this bottomless pit of brokenness that exists inside of me will never allow me to feel safe or happy or joy. Yeah.

I have to lean into who I know God says I am and to receive the good things that happen in my life as an extension of God's love and generosity towards me. And maybe instead of feeling the ego boost, the confidence in your achievement, maybe instead what you need to feel is the love and generosity of God allowing you to experience moments that you didn't feel like you were worthy of.

And maybe where you're hoping for celebration, instead you have worship. And then maybe from the place of worship, you have joy. I think that there are certain personality types, certain people who have had experiences that keep them from being as bold and audacious as other people when they achieve because we are questioning or wondering or insecure. And yet God keeps showing up in our lives. And I think to receive joy

These moments as a gift from God, it changes our ability to lean into them that God said, even though you don't have your father, I am going to bless you and guide you and steer you and equip you and deposit within you skills and sensitivities and creativity and

I'm going to be your father and I want you to celebrate those moments with me. Your earthly father may not be here. And if someone's listening, you may not have the friends. You may not have the partner. You may not have the familial relationships that would make this moment sweet. But I just want you to know that just because you don't have them doesn't mean that you don't have God, that God wants to celebrate these moments with you. And so instead of just looking for the next thing to achieve, because you don't have them,

because you don't have anyone to rest in the celebration with or the person that you want to rest in the celebration with, I would challenge you to take a moment and to receive God's love, God's generosity, and to celebrate it and acknowledge it and

have some cake or, you know, fro-yo, whatever your get down is, some broccoli with a candle, like whatever your thing is, like take that moment and receive God's love for you. And then ask God what's next. You don't get to set your own agenda, but to say, God, what's next? And sometimes God will say just this.

Just rush, just celebration, just me lavishing my love on you. And then God may say, I need you to take this class because I need you to do this thing in the world like he's doing with me right now. But I hope that you'll celebrate with God when you can't celebrate with anyone else. Part of the reason why I felt like this, the beginning part of this podcast was laying a foundation for the conversation that we're going to have is because I

Oftentimes, we don't always know what's inside of us until we're standing in the mess of the sin that we did because we didn't acknowledge the sin inside of us. And all of us have sinned, right? And my sin right now is holding my heart back and being judgmental when I should be prayerful. And yet there are some sins that are...

not just in us, they start showing up in the way that we treat other people, in the way that we hide, in the way that we may manipulate, or in the case of this conversation we're about to have, in the way that we impact others through infidelity. Now, there's a few things I want to say as it relates to this conversation about infidelity. I am

I have been cheated on and I have been the girl that I knew someone was cheating with knowingly. Like it wasn't nobody duped me. I knew. And a lot of times we have a lot conversations about being cheated on, but very few conversations about being the one that someone cheated with or doing the cheating ourselves. And what I know now that I didn't know then is I could not have cared less about

about the person whose actions or whose heart rather was being impacted by my actions. Because I was so desperate for attention, so desperate to be seen, so desperate to feel worthy and validated that I didn't mind reducing someone else's worth. I didn't have any standards to

And as a result, I experienced a lot of heartbreak. You know, how you get them is how you lose them. Or, you know, what is that? What they say? How you get them, how you lose them, how you keep them, how you catch them, how you forget them. I forgot it. But I want to say that because having these conversations can be really interesting, especially when it comes from a person of faith.

And a person of leadership in faith. And though I'm not speaking with Carl Lentz today, I did have the opportunity to speak with his wife, Laura Lentz. And one of the things that I enjoy about their journey is that

that I think that I have witnessed. And you'll learn that I don't know them personally. So I've been on the outside looking in, in many ways. But there has been courageous accountability that I don't think that we've ever seen a leader in faith take for actions that are not just painful for their family and immediate family, but painful for those who have been inspired and impacted by their ministry.

Conversations like this are very, I think, nuanced because on one hand, I realize that as a leader in faith that we're human and that we're going to make mistakes. And if we're doing this right, we're leading people to God and not to us.

I also believe that there is probably several things that we could be doing better as leaders to make sure we don't end up in these situations. Being human is not a license to do whatever. And I think that that reality, that truth, it comes to too many of us too late. I try to be very careful. When we first heard the news of Carl Lentz and Laura Lentz,

My husband and I are not like, oh my gosh, this could never happen to me. But really God, like, how could this happen to me? Show me ways and patterns that may exist in my life now that may lead me to making some choices that really perhaps bring a shadow to the divine work that I've done or brings pain to other people.

wanted to say that because this is a vulnerable conversation about intimate subject matter and I wanted to one make sure that you all know that I wanted to handle Laura's heart with care and

And that I wasn't coming from a place of judgment. And I also wanted to ask her some questions about their journey, their healing process. Many times when we have conversations about infidelity, I'll be honest, you know, I left after experiencing a series of infidelities.

And yet there are people who are able to rebuild their lives and marriages after infidelity. But I think it takes a lot of honesty, a lot of accountability. And one of the things that I admire about the Lynch journey is that they took time away. They were not so consumed with trying to fix their public image that they didn't focus on their private life.

And having come on the other side of taking care of their private life, they're beginning to share with us and the world many of the steps that led them to a place of recovery and of healing. And I think it's a conversation that's worthy of everyone hearing. I follow Laura on Instagram. I don't think I started following her until everything popped off, mainly because I

It was during the pandemic. I'm on other people's business and I just wanted her to know, like, I was liking posts, like, girl, I hope you're all right. Like, girl, how you doing? Didn't know her, but I just wanted that like, like, I don't know what I thought liking a post was going to do, but I just wanted her to know, like, girl, how are you? What's happening?

Laura Lentz is a dynamic life coach, entrepreneur, speaker, and interior designer with over 20 years of experience in ministry. She's passionate about empowering women. Laura finds immense joy in helping them discover their unique voices and unlock their full potential. Her husband, Carl, and three kids look to her as the rock in the family. They also love making fun of her Australian accent, which you're going to hear on this conversation. I

I am looking forward to you guys just getting to know her as I get to know her through this conversation. I left one, this is going to be a two part series, but I left feeling like she's a woman who has immense strength.

who has experienced heartbreak and who has recognized that there is not just healing, but joy on the other side of it. And I'm just grateful that she shares her heart and her story with us. And I can't wait for you to experience it. So let's get into it. I feel like this is going to be a really good conversation because, you know, you have given the world permission to mind your business. And all I like to do is mind other people's business. And so now I just feel like,

How are you doing? Like your world has played out in front of many of our lives. And yet, you know, I think you guys, it seems from the outside looking in that you guys like took a season, had some private time for yourself. And now you're like outside again. How does it feel to be outside again? It's been a little bit of a mix of emotion, honestly.

cause we did go into hiding for gosh, it's going to be four years next week since, you know, my world kind of crashed. So, um, it's, it was really nice to have that time, you know, in, in our own space, our little circle, our family. And, um, yeah, so now being out and

And everyone now knowing the other side of our story and where we've, you know, some of the things that we've gone through on this side, it's actually been quite a healing thing for me and for Carl and for our kids too, I think, just being able to share our side when there was so much said, you know, in the beginning of what happened and,

being able to share our journey on the other side of this has been really nice. So it's been good. And I think knowing that we've helped, you know, many people just being able to tell our story and share our story a little bit gives me hope. Okay, so...

We've seen different things happen for like people who are in ministry. And I feel like you all have handled it. I just feel with like so much grace and so much truth and accountability that

Whereas most people may have possibly decided instead of going in hiding to defend themselves or to tell their side of their story immediately. How did you all know that this was not a time to defend yourself? This was not a time to let things progress.

play out publicly with your perspective as a part of the conversation. Because I feel like there's no playbook for how to handle something like this. And yet I feel like making the choice to say, you know what, we're out and we're going to be people before we're images. I just don't feel like that happens often.

Yeah, I think for us, it was just so important. And especially for Carl, he felt it was really important for him just to focus on his healing and his, you know, himself. He had so much things that he had to work out and break down and try and get to the bottom of. And, you know, he went straight from, you know, him telling what had happened in that, I think it was a

post or something he put up publicly. And then just that was it. He went into hiding. He went and got therapy. He went to intensives. He went to, you know, a rehab. We moved states quite a few times. And we just really felt like it was more important for our family to heal. And we wanted to, you know, take that time for us because at the end of the day, the world and the church as much as, you know,

It was our whole life. You know, we always say I would give all of this. A lot of people say it in ministry. I would give everything up. Yeah. Until it happens to you and you're like, oh, crap. Now what are we going to do? You know? So thankfully we had some really great people around us that were a really safe space for us and, yeah,

So we were able to take that time just to get out of the spotlight, so to speak, and just really focus on our family and each other.

Now, I know you all have a podcast and you all have talked about everything that has happened kind of like more in detail than we'll ever get into on this podcast. But you mentioned that like he went and got some help. He got the support that he needed so that you all could do what you needed to do within your family. Like what's happening for you during this time? Like, you know...

When I was in a situation in my first marriage where I experienced infidelity, and it wasn't as public as what you experienced, you know, like I almost went to prison. And yet here you are, your skin is glowing. The cheekbones are very high and lifted up. They're like giving God a praise. You know what I mean? Like you've got joy. Thank you.

Even I've, you know, I've been following you on Instagram and like, I saw you when you're doing your DIY stuff. My girl was very much so giving, like, I'm still here. I'm still alive. And so I'm just wondering, like, what was this process like for you? You know, I think people see now that I am this like glowing and happy and like, but in the beginning I was so lost. I was so broken. Um,

Our whole life was the church. Our whole life was ministry. And so when this happened, and there was a lot of, there was a few other things that were going on in our family at the same time. I think we talk about it with our daughter and all of this stuff. It happened a month earlier where she ended up going to a hospital, a teen hospital for eight weeks. And so it was just a lot of just anxiety.

and brokenness happening. And then, you know, this happened and I just lost it. Like I was just like completely broken. And it was one friend that I remember he just kept reminding me

He loves you. Carl loves you. Jesus loves you. Like, you are going to get through this. This is going to be okay. But there was just days I couldn't get out of bed. You know, there was days where I was just, I didn't know where to look, where to turn. I didn't know who I could trust. You know, there was, and I didn't know, I had so much anxiety because it was so public. So you never, I never knew what that next wave of like story was going to be. So it was really tough. And, um,

It wasn't until we got... We went to California for a little bit and I felt like I could breathe. You know, I was in mum mode. You know, I was in, like, let's just get through this. Let's just push through. And then he went to rehab and I did Christmas by myself that first year. It was just me and the three kids. Like, it was really hard. Like, it wasn't... It hasn't been easy, you know, but...

I just had really great support. Our family was incredible and the people that we had in our life at the time were just perfect for what I needed. I felt like I needed more, but I had everything I needed and I had everyone I needed and I had God. You know, that was the only thing that got me through, honestly. And at the time I didn't feel like it because I was, again, because it all happened with church, family,

I was angry at God for a really long time and it took me probably two and a half years to even like be able to verbalise that feeling of like what that was and the walls I had up even going into church and standing in a service was just, I could feel the anxiety up in my neck. Like I would just stand stiff in a service because everything just reminded me or triggered me or like just made me mad.

And it was a really, I would not wish it on anyone. And, you know, being in that same situation, like with infidelity, you don't know until you know. Like there's just no way to explain it to someone that hasn't gone through it. No one will understand unless they've gone through it. And I pray that no one has to, you know, because it is the most, it crushes your whole personality.

And so it takes a lot to come back from that. So I just went into once, once he, um, once we got to California and I knew that everyone was kind of settled a little bit, I went, I went to an onsite, um, intensive and I just like dug in deep and I did like, it was a four day intensive, but they say it's like five years of therapy in four days. So it's, it's a lot. So I was just like,

I just wanted to, I refused to be angry and hurt and bitter. I just didn't want that to stay in my heart forever. And so I worked really hard at

just doing that hard work and feeling all the feelings and doing all the stuff they say you have to do. And, and I did that, you know, and I feel like because I did so much of that, I'm able to stand on this side and feel like my skin is glowing, you know, like it's like, okay, I can, I can do those hard things. But yeah, in the moment it's, it's awful. It's weird. Cause you're like in this crossfire, this intersection of experiencing church hurt and,

but also being in church leadership and because of everything that happened, being someone else's association with church hurt. You know what I mean? Yeah. What is that like? You want to defend yourself. You want to defend your church. You want to defend everything. That's the first initial feeling, I think, is like, no, we're good people. But then you understand on the other side,

that people are broken and we are just humans and we get put in this space, intentional or not. It's like you get put at a higher level of what, you know, I don't know if it's necessarily healthy, but it just is how it is in church, you know. And so I think...

us being able to take responsibility for us, especially him being the one that caused so much hurt for people in the church. That's all we could do is take that responsibility and apologise for whoever felt that way because we understood that because we felt that way as well. Like we were hurt by the people that we loved in church. And so it's been like this beautiful moment of...

being able to experience what church hurt, I hate that phrase, but, you know, church hurt is, but also being like, okay, understanding that people are human and we can move on from it. And I don't, I hate that people feel like they get stuck in that space of church hurt, you know, because I feel like that

it's kind of unfair. Like you don't go to, you don't stop going to a restaurant just because the pizza sucked. Like you, you know, you'll keep going or you'll go to a different place or whatever. So I just feel like church is the same way. Find a place that you feel is safe and, you know, the leadership is great and do that. Like be in a place where you can heal and you can

Fix that, that church hurt, you know. I just feel it's not fair to stay in a place of hurt. Church hurt or otherwise, you know. Yeah.

I think there's this, whenever a pastor is going through something or a Christian public figure or whatever is going through something, I think that when you are also a pastor, you're also someone who has influence. I think that there's this like perspective that we can take and

And one is like, oh, that would never happen to me. I would never do anything like that. And then I think a more wise perspective is like, how could that happen to me? You know what I mean? Like-

It's so easy to think that certain things would never happen to you, but I think it takes a certain level of humility to see what is in me, what is in this world, what's in this pace, what's in this pressure, this rhythm that can exploit something that a vulnerability that I have, a weakness, a proclivity that I have that could produce a similar result. And I feel like I have...

kind of learn to look at these situations in that way, like what is in me that could produce that outcome? And what can I do now to learn from the experiences of others? And so I think that that's kind of the lens in which we looked at things when we heard about them. And then I just...

When you talk about them headline after headline, I was like, Lord Jesus, I know. I think especially for you as a woman, I'm like, if y'all could please, I didn't even know her, but I'm like, it felt like me defending Eve. It was like, if y'all could just give my girl one minute to take a breath, if y'all could just give her chill, dang. But I was glad to see you doing things like hanging curtains and trying to mount the television. Yeah.

I had to do things that just kept, like I just, I found myself keeping busy, you know, as well. Because it was, it was such an awful, it was probably that first six months that was the worst. It was just like wave after wave of like I was just getting hit with stuff. I'm like, can I just take a break? Can they just leave us alone? Like why do people, and you forget. I think we just, I forgot how much.

How much influence, I guess, or how much our life meant to people. It was really weird, though, because I'll be honest. Even I was like, are they really this famous? Like, I didn't like... I mean, you guys were everywhere. It was ridiculous. It really was ridiculous. And then also with...

I guess because of the celebrity thing, like Celebrity Church and all of that stuff, the celebrity pastor, which I just hate. I hate all of that. And then certain people being brought up, which is what it was. Like it was certain celebrities that were brought into his name every time. It was like Justin Bieber's pastor. And it's like just leave it. Like we're not even his pastor, you know, like all of that stuff. It's just the media's way of –

It's clickbait, you know, and I just hated it. I hated all of it. Do you feel like you hated it in the moment, like before everything broke out? Like, did you hate it when it was happening or did you learn to hate it once you saw the other side of it? Oh, that's a good question. No, I think I hated all of it. Like, it was just...

The whole thing. I hated the whole thing. Like I just wanted to be left alone. And I think because Carl had taken such a position of humility and just wanting to fix himself, like he had apologised right at the beginning. He did what he had to do, what he was asked to do, and then we felt like we just had taken a step back so then we

When there was interviews happening and all of that stuff, I was like, can you just, like, just leave us alone? Like, because we knew that we weren't going to say anything, but gosh, it was hard. It was really hard not to defend ourselves. I bet. But at the same time, we...

We were okay, like especially him because he'd done so much work on himself and he was just like he didn't even think twice about any of it, you know. So I think it was harder for my kids because they're older. You know, I've got teenagers. I've got two grown girls now. And so for them it was really hard to see all of that in the media. And I think people forget that. Christians forget that. Yeah. That there's a family on the other side of this situation. Yeah.

So, yeah, that was tough. Okay. So why come out of hiding? Like you finally got away. They finally stopped talking. You could finally be like, you know what? We can have a normal life. Maybe it's different than what we anticipated, but at least people aren't in our business. Like why come back? I think we felt an obligation to tell our story, to get to a place where

Because we had done so much work to heal and you don't see that very often. Like you said in the beginning, like it's either it's hidden, no one talks about it and then they just come back on a Sunday and they're preaching again or it's hidden and it's just never talked about at all. So for us, we felt like we had an obligation because it was so public, we'll

Let's tell our side. Let's talk about the crap we've gone through, that it hasn't been easy and that you can do the work. You can get healing from a broken place in a marriage. I think so many times, and in the church as well, like infidelity, it's like you're done. And it should be. A lot of times it should be, depending on how the responses of either party, you know,

And so for us, I think with our stance on everything and the way we dealt with stuff, we just felt like, and the amount of people that would reach out to us, DMs and all that kind of stuff, you saw how many people were in the same boat as us and had no help. They had nowhere to go and they had no idea what to do next. They just felt lost. And so for us, we just felt like we could help.

Okay. I feel like I asked you that question prematurely because what I should have asked you first instead of why did you come out of hiding is like, girl, why did we stay? You know what I mean? Like was leaving ever an option? Absolutely. Okay. Because some people go through it and they're like, you know, oh no, I was never going to leave.

And then I think there's something to be said of like everything was on the table. You know what I mean? I definitely was leaving, but you know, this happened, that happened. Can we talk a little bit? When I was doing a woman evolve, we have these intimate meet and greets.

And this lady asked me, she said that her and her husband were going through a divorce, that he'd had, they'd experienced some infidelity. She wasn't clear who did what, but she was believing God for their marriage still. And she wanted to know if I could give her any advice. And I was like, I can't give you any advice for that. Cause in my first marriage, you know, I,

I did. It wasn't a one time thing. It was many times. But like I, I didn't stay. But there are marriages that experience infidelity, whether it's a one off or many times. And yet they are able to experience restoration in the marriage. And so I should have asked you, like, why did we stay? Yeah.

You know, back when I would hear people go through infidelity in ministry, I was like, oh, I would never stay. I was that person. I was like, I would never stay. And then when it happens to you, I think everything is just, you just don't know. You don't know. And so for me, I had a few like,

a few things that I had to go off, like if I would stay or not. And the way that there was things in his life and his childhood that I learned that I had never seen or heard of from him before. And I remember one time there was, it was the first week that we had gone, you know, that everything had come out for me. And he was on the phone with a therapist and she was asking him some questions about his childhood and,

And I had never seen him break down and cry like he did. It was like from his gut. Like there was just this pain and he couldn't even get the words out of what had happened. Like he couldn't get it out. And it was at that moment I felt like, oh, there is more reason behind this, like what he's gone through and what he's done in our marriage. There is reasons behind it and I will stay true

I want to stay and help him with that. And it wasn't like a codependent thing at that time. It was just like I just saw this. It was like a compassion, empathy side of me that was like, oh, there is more to this than just like there was another person in the marriage. You know, like there was just this brokenness in him and then also, like,

him doing the work, which people like, what's the work that he was doing? And it's just him, like from the moment that it happened, he was on the phone to people like Bob Goff. He was on the phone to some of our closest friends. He was on the phone to people from onsite trying to get into therapy, like all of these things. He was actively wanting to help himself and fix himself. And I think that was the difference for me. It was seeing that in him.

And it's still to this day. Like if he stops doing any of the work he's supposed to do and that consistency that I see him doing every day, if I don't see that, that's a red flag for me. Yeah. And so that's one of the things that we, you know, have talked about from the very beginning. So that's been something. And then I know that there's people that don't have that in a relationship and it's like the guy is just, he's just continued to do what he's going to do.

that's when you that's when you run you know and so for me that was the the reasoning behind it um is why I stayed is because there was just so much brokenness in him that he didn't even understand and so being with him seeing him work through some of that was it was pretty shocking

I could see too, not only that revelation, but the way that everything and everyone, not everyone, because there were people who you mentioned were there for you, but the way that everything turned so quickly, like I could kind of see it being like, you guys were all you had in this whirlwind too. Like, you know, stay, right now we're fight or flight. We're just trying to survive. Like I can't even make a decision about this marriage. And then to see that,

I think that God gave you a capacity to stay and be resilient and loving and to show God's love towards him. Who knows? And with that level of vitriol and that level of, you know, betrayal and accountability happening at the same time, who knows how differently your story could have played out. I think it's,

What were you going to say? Yeah, no, I was going to agree with you because it could have gone in a very different way, you know, and we were very alone. I felt very alone. I had one friend that had gone through infidelity that I knew of and she was there for me.

just saying it's going to get, it's going to get better. That pain is going to go. And that, you know, just giving me this little glimpses of hope of what it could be. Cause when you're in it, I was like, this is the, like, this is never going to leave. Like I'm never going to stop having this emotions and these feelings and how will I ever look at him the same and all of those things. It's also real, you know? And so I do believe that God gave me a strength to get through it. Um,

And there were days where I couldn't get through it, you know, and I would just go with that too. Like I would just lay in my bed some days. I didn't do anything. So, yeah, it's just the hardest thing that you have to go through. And, like, I don't – the worst thing for me is when people respond or say, like, I'm staying in my marriage because you did. And I'm like, no, but –

That's why we try to like tell our side of like if he's not doing the work or, you know, whatever, like you've got to go. So I never wanted people to think that I was just like rolling over and taking whatever was, you know. That was never the case. And he knew that, you know, so that was the other reason why we felt like we needed to tell our story and our side.

You all just posted a clip that I think speaks to the reality of someone being willing to do the work. And Carl's talking about how your books were all about the house, like how to survive betrayal and what to do when your husband's an idiot, like all over the house. And I just want to tell you...

I'm going to send you some flowers for this because what we're not going to do is be embarrassed out loud and heal silently. No, we're going to heal out loud. Exactly. And that was the thing for me. I was like, I want you to know that I'm doing my work and to be reminded of what you did. I wish I didn't have to read the book. The least you can do is see it. I wish I didn't have to read the book. Exactly. It's like, God.

Yep. I cannot wait to pick up this conversation next week with Laura Lentz and to talk a little bit more about some of the lessons that she has learned and discovered throughout this journey.

I feel like the theme of this episode, though, whether it's me sharing with you what God is showing me and my walk with the Lord or even the mind your business question, is that we have to take healing seriously, that we can't become locked in our own hurt justifications for our sins.

whatever we're doing to anesthetize the pain, that there are some things that we shouldn't be numb from because it's making us numb from everything. And so my prayer before we close out is going to be for those of you who need to take your healing seriously. And so God, I'm praying a dangerous prayer, a prayer that many of us don't pray because we know it's going to hurt. And yet you promised that

You'll never leave us nor forsake us. And that means even in the painful moments. So God, I am asking that you would highlight the area where we're hurting, but numb.

where we're hurting, but achieving on top of it, where we're hurting and building walls because of it so that we may experience freedom, a real freedom to feel everything good and bad, that we would be like Jesus in the garden and agony, that we would dare to be like Jesus crying over Lazarus and allow ourselves to weep.

that we would let pain be pain so that healing can be healing. God, I thank you for not just leaving us in a state of our own mess, for not just leaving us to face things on our own, but literally sending your Holy Spirit to comfort us. And so God, I'm praying that the Holy Spirit would meet us in those hurting places, that the Holy Spirit would comfort us, that the Holy Spirit would bring reconciliation,

that the Holy Spirit would bring wisdom, guidance, love and peace in the area where we don't want to feel anything at all. I thank you, God, for divine restoration. I thank you, God, for divine healing. In Jesus name I pray. Amen. I'll see you next week.