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Dr. Joy here. I invite you to join me every Wednesday on the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a weekly chat about mental health and personal development, where my expert guests and I discuss the unique challenges and triumphs faced by Black women through the lens of self-care, pop culture, and building the best version of you. So if you're looking for more ways to incorporate wellness into your life, listen to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
As you step into the call of God, I want you to recognize that you may not always be able to protect yourself. You have to trust that the call is protection. You have to trust that obedience is protection. I was working 14 hour days. I was talking to eight people. And when overdrive does not work, what do you have left? If you are doing everything in your power, it's not working. Sometimes you just need to stop.
Welcome back, welcome back. This is another week of... Is this your favorite podcast? No? Okay, it's one of them. Is this your first time? I won't put any pressure on you, but I do want to say that I am glad you are back to the Woman Evolved Podcast. I am your girl, Sarah Jakes Roberts, checking in for another week.
Can I tell you all some of the things that brought me joy? My brother and his wife, my sister in love, Larissa, my brother's name is Dexter, just are turning 30 this year. One birthday is in July, the other one is in August. And so I threw them a joint birthday party and we all grew up as old, grew up. We all grew up. The party was us growing up into senior citizens. And the time that we had was amazing. They have old souls.
One was raised, my parents were a little later in life when they had Dexter and my sister-in-law was raised by her mom and her grandparents. And so they have old souls. It was such a good time though. If you haven't seen it, go over to my social media, either on TikTok or Instagram, and you can see a reel that I put together from the party. But just reflecting on it brings me so much joy. Right now I'm recording this a little bit early because we are on our way to South Africa, literally.
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I used to tell my husband that generally when we get on an airplane, it's because we're speaking somewhere, we're going to go work or take a meeting. But this summer, I've done a lot of traveling, just enjoying different cities. And it's been very rewarding. This is our third airplane.
international trip in two months. Is that right? I think fourth in two months. And I'm a little tired, I'll be honest, but I'm also really grateful. I'm looking forward to it. I cannot wait to see what God does when we get to South Africa. So many people who have been listening to this podcast, tuned into Woman Evolved are from South Africa. So it's going to be amazing to actually meet them face to face. And you guys pray for me because I am just
asking that the Lord would continue to deposit His truth, His word, His love, His grace.
into my spirit and that I would communicate it effectively. So y'all pray for me. Follow me as I follow Christ. Our flight leaves at 11. So I'm knocking this out because I am a responsible human being. I am excited about the next few weeks of conversations. I have had some dialogue with people who I think you know, if you don't know them, you're going to be blown away when you have these encounters with them through this podcast. Even if you know them, I feel like we were able to have some conversations that scratched
underneath the surface of what you may be used to experiencing from them. And I cannot wait until we get into this week's episode, but you know, I have to mind your business. I let you in on mine. I told you what I was doing, but did I tell you how I am feeling? I am feeling gratitude. I am feeling gratitude. That's it. I'm feeling gratitude. Um,
Maybe because it's Sunday and I just came from church and I'm just feeling the Holy Spirit. So I'm feeling gratitude. How are you? Do you need a feelings will? If you're not on your gratitude flow, that's all right. I am not judging. This is a safe place, okay? So I hope that you're taking the time to check in with yourself and actually ask yourself how you're feeling, not what you are doing, because that's important. All right, let's get into this week's mind your business question. I cannot wait to see what's happening.
Hello, Pastor Sarah. I hope this email finds you well. I want to thank you so much for sharing your platform with us. I recently finished reading chapter 12 of your book, Joining Forces.
The chapter is called Joining Forces, but the book is Power Moves and felt inspired to connect with you. I'm currently navigating a divorce, which has been challenging due to various personal and family related issues. Despite these difficulties, I am committed to my community work, which includes leading a support group.
Thank you.
Some of the things being said about me are true while others are not. And it's disheartening to see my character being questioned by those I once trusted. I worry that these accusations might affect my future success and it's been weighing on me. Do you have any wisdom or advice for those of us who are motivational and encouraging influencers representing God, but who are also fighting to keep our identity and integrity intact in the face of such challenges? Thank you for your guidance.
This is a phenomenal question. I feel like it leans in a little bit to what I talked about last week when talking about balance and the reality that, you know, you're still a work in progress, but also God is using you right now. This has a bit of a twist, though, because it's the reality of us being vulnerable to the thoughts and opinions of others while also desiring to show up in the world, you
you know, as a reflection of the growth and transformation we have experienced. And so I would offer you this to marinate on, to take to the Lord in prayer. Whenever I start feeling this way, I start asking myself, right, because we do not have a priest who cannot sympathize with our frailty. I'm going to get you the scripture on that.
Hebrews 4 and 15, the New King James Version says, For we do not have a high priest who cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities, but was in all points tempted as we are yet without sin. Sometimes I use this scripture and I compare it to how I'm feeling and I start asking myself, like, if I have a high priest in Jesus who cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities, what this means is like he can feel what we have gone through. We can...
I want to say this the way I feel it in my spirit. Let me see if there's a message version that might expedite this process for all of us. Let's see what news.
NIV says, for we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weakness, but we have one who has been tempted in every way just as we are, yet he did not sin. Okay, so yeah. So first of all, I'm so glad that I gave you the NIV version. So when you think about Jesus on his mission, being accused, being mischaracterized, being celebrated, being praised, being hated,
you recognize that this is a part of the journey is that there are going to be people who we trust, people who we thought, I mean, John the Baptist is, you know, baptizes Jesus. And then later on ask him, are you the Christ or is there someone else coming? Like that within itself had to feel like betrayal. Like, you know who I am. And yet in this moment, you're questioning my character. And so I would say to you that this is a part of the journey and
As you step into the call of God, I want you to recognize that you may not always be able to protect yourself. You have to trust that the call is protection. You have to trust that obedience is protection. And even when it looks like the people who are talking to you may be
talking about you rather, maybe getting the upper hand, I want you to remember that at the end of the day, it is the consistency and faithfulness of God and the consistency and faithfulness of your obedience that will outlast any rumor. These are things that I'm constantly telling myself, guys, I'm
I've posted two pictures now where I didn't realize until I posted that I guess something that I was doing symbolizes something. And I literally had no idea. And I was really upset because people were in my comments accusing me of things. And I was like, y'all, I love Jesus for real. Like, I believe he is my Lord and Savior died on the cross, rose on the third day. Like I blood washed. Like, I'm just like, whatever it is y'all think it is. It is not that.
And, you know, now that I know better, you know, I will be mindful of it. But in the moment, I didn't know any better. And having your character attacked about something that is very near and dear to your heart can be challenging. And so I want to lay a foundation by saying that you cannot control what other people say about you or what other people think about you.
You have to trust that the people who are called to your voice, called to your anointing, called to what God is doing through you will have ears to hear and eyes to see what the say of the Lord through you. So I'm going to put that there. I'm also going to say this. Be careful that you don't fall for the image that you want to create.
I'm constantly challenging myself. If you see my social media, it's probably not as consistently inspirational maybe as people would
suspect it would be for someone like me. Sometimes I'll say this. Sometimes I see people who are like social media influencers and they are Christian influencers, you know, or, you know, Christian influencers can have negative connotation, but you know, they've made their platform about sharing the gospel. My platform has always been about my life and my journey and my, you
relationship with the Lord is a part of that journey. My motherhood is a part of that journey. Me getting dressed up sometimes is a part of that journey. And so there are moments sometimes where I challenge myself. I'm like, you need to be posting everything the Lord says to you. You need to be making content about this 24-7. Like nobody wants to see you being a mother. Nobody wants it. Like you need to be giving them Jesus, giving them Jesus.
And I pray that in giving you my life, that I am giving you Jesus because Jesus is a part of every single phase of my life. And even as I'm growing and becoming and seeing me in that process alongside you, not always ahead of you.
I pray makes you feel less alone and draws you closer to Jesus. I do not want people to forget that in the midst of messages that may have been powerful for you, in the midst of podcasts and books that may have blessed your life, that I'm a woman too. You know, if you guys...
Look at that video of me with my family dressed up for my brother and sister's party. You'll see like I'm clowning, like I'm a person. And when you embrace your humanity in the midst of your call, you don't have to be afraid of people finding out that you're human. Sometimes I worry that if we only put out
our high mountaintop moments, that we alienate people from those moments where we all experience valleys, but then we also allow them to believe a truth about us that may not always be true. Sometimes I'm on the mountain. Sometimes God is challenging me. Sometimes I'm jumping across the platform and sharing this message. And sometimes I'm walking through my closet talking about my insecurities. It is important that we don't allow people to put us on pedestals.
that we build a ladder. We put a ladder wherever there is a pedestal, you need a ladder where you're climbing down by showing your vulnerability, displaying your weakness, displaying where God is challenging you and being okay with that. So I hope that that's helpful. Um, if it's really someone who you felt like you had genuine connection with, I want you to know that people generally come around, um,
They may be taken aback by something. They may need some time to marinate and weigh it. But if they're for you and they're meant to be a part of your journey, then they'll come back around. My concern is that you need to just worry about protecting your heart right now. Don't allow this chaos. Don't allow this divisiveness to dilute your vision and to dilute what God is telling you.
Certainly because you do not have a high priest who cannot empathize with you. I want you to experience the comfort of the Holy Spirit. I want you to feel your pain, to feel the betrayal. But I also want you to know that just like it passed for Jesus, it's going to pass for you too. And that there's a resurrection on the other side of it. I pray that that helped you.
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Between work, the gym, family, I am overwhelmed. Sis, are you feeling overwhelmed? You're not alone.
I'm Dr. Joy Harden-Bradford, licensed psychologist and host of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. And I'm bringing candid mental health conversations straight to your podcast feed. We'll unpack everything from conquering imposter syndrome to nurturing your friendships. Join me and my expert guests as we explore mental health and personal development,
Whether you're just starting your mental health journey, entering motherhood, thinking about becoming a therapist, or just trying to show up as the best possible version of yourself. Listen to Therapy for Black Girls on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, from Wonder Media Network, I'm Jenny Kaplan, host of Womanica, a daily podcast that introduces you to the fascinating lives of women history has forgotten. This month, we're bringing you the stories of athletes,
There's the Italian race car driver who courted danger and became the first woman to compete in Formula One. The sprinter who set a world record and protested racism and discrimination in the U.S. and around the world in the 1960s. The diver who was barred from swimming clubs due to her race and went on to become the first Asian-American woman to win an Olympic medal. She won gold twice. The mountaineer known in the Chinese press as the tallest woman in the world.
That question was really spot on for this week's episode because having to remind ourselves to not be trapped in the image that we created and the image that we created is a very important part of our lives.
is an ongoing battle that few of us even realize that we're in. Many times we find ourselves burnt out, we find ourselves depleted, and we're trying to figure out why because nothing in our life has changed or everything in our life is exactly what we said we wanted. But for some reason or another, it just no longer feels authentic.
Part of the reasons why I wrote Power Moves, Ignite Your Confidence and Become a Force is because I recognize that authenticity is always changing, which means that what makes us powerful is always changing. And if we are not daring to ask ourselves, who am I now? What do I need? Does it still work? Does it still fit? Then we will find ourselves trapped
in lives that we built, that we dreamed of, that we hoped for, but feel discontent with. I was reading an article in Psychology Today and it's about burnout. And I think most of us
would consider burnout to just be overwhelmed. But I want to read these definitions to you. Burnout is a state of chronic stress that leads to exhaustion, detachment, feelings of ineffectiveness. I want to hone in a little bit on that feeling of ineffectiveness.
Because what's crazy about burnout is that you're so busy doing, you're so busy being productive that you would assume that you're also being effective. But just because you're being productive doesn't mean that you see your own effectiveness.
How often have you found yourself blinded by productivity, not realizing that you have moved from an area of effort into mastery, that you've moved from a space of effort into victory? I think about this often because when I first got pregnant as a teenager, all I wanted to be was a good mom. I want to be a good mom. I want to be a good mom.
And I find myself even now being like, man, I hope I'm doing okay. I hope I'm doing okay. Now my children are telling me like, you're doing a good job, man. I wish I could remember verbatim. Um, oh,
My son recently found this book from his first day of kindergarten and there were pictures of him and I'd written him these little notes just like telling, it was like a photo album Instagram. So there's a picture and then like this caption, this handwritten caption of me explaining what his first day was like. And I go, man, I really was trying to be a good mom. And he was like, what kind of mom
I think I said, I'm like, I know I didn't. I wasn't necessarily the best mom. And he was like, what kind of mom did you think that I needed? And I was like, well, I felt like you needed someone who would be present, someone who would do this. And he was like, mom, you did all of those things. But when you are so busy trying, trying, trying, performing, performing, performing, you miss the moment where you've done it.
where you're doing, and maybe they still got years to raise. Maybe you still have businesses to build. You still have books to write. You still have a marketing plan to roll out. Maybe you still have all of these things, but have you given yourself permission to say, but I am entering to a stage where I am doing, no longer trying. And the only way that you can really tap into that is if you take time to rest. If you don't have the time to rest,
then you will never see those moments of effectiveness. And without effectiveness, you can begin to believe that what you do is purposeless.
And we need you. Your life is not random. Christine Kane came to Hey You. Hey You is a bi-monthly, bi-monthly? Every other month? Is that bi-monthly? Call me back. It is, right? No? Anyways, call me back. Every other month we have a women's gathering and it's just a time of impartation and connection for women. But one of the things that she said that really stood out to me is she really challenged us to remember that God loves
looked at the universe, everything that was happening in the world and the political climate in Texas and South Africa and London and Japan and California and New York and Atlanta and DMV and said, I want you, whoever you are, to be alive in your city, in your family, in this era, in this generation for such a time as this.
Because you are plan A. You are the solution. You are plan A, my plan A for the solution of what needs to take place in this earth. And that reminder is so necessary for us who often begin to feel like we have no value or have no purpose. Can I tell you, like, I am guilty of that. Like, sometimes I look at like, oh my God, all these preaching clips from other people. And there's so many different books. And I'm like, I really could fall off the face of the earth and it would not matter. Yeah.
These are words, you see how easy that rolled off my tongue? I really could just not be here. And by not be here, I mean I don't have to add my voice to the noise. I don't have to add what I'm doing into the mix. Someone else has got it covered. And I'm often challenged because there are some people who reach out to me and they're like, oh my gosh, there was something about this.
the way that you said it. There's something about the way that you show up that leads me closer to Jesus. And so I just want to challenge those of you who may be experiencing burnout to, if you are questioning whether or not you are effective, it could be a sign of burnout. If you have been in a chronic state of stress,
Do not be surprised if you wake up one day and you're like, man, there's something going on with me. I can't explain it. You could be burnt out. Man, we're over halfway through the year. It's giving burnout for sure. But chronic fatigue, insomnia, forgetfulness, physical symptoms, increased illness, loss of appetite,
So anyways, I want you to take seriously burnout. This conversation about us just really being present within ourselves, giving ourselves opportunity to rest and recalibrate.
Could not be more timely because when I began reaching out to guests and just getting my wishlist together that I wanted to send to the team, there was someone who came up to me. There was someone who came up in my mind that I felt like was worthy of you all just having a conversation with, listening in on our conversation, I guess. I try to ask the questions that I think that you all would ask if you were in the room.
Lovey Ajayi Jones is a four-time New York Times bestselling author, speaker, and book coach who thrives at the intersection of culture, business, and leadership. She has written four critically acclaimed bestselling books. Her expertise as a marketer and a successful published author drove her to create the Book Academy, a masterclass and coaching platform for aspiring and established author's
I follow Lovey on social media. She has some of the best entrepreneur tips and transparency that makes me feel less alone on my journey, but also inspires me to keep stretching. I found it shocking.
that over the last few months, she started sharing about how her business almost fell apart, how she went through this transition and how she almost lost everything. But what I love so much about it was she was being candid, she was being honest, but it was also...
it seemed like she was going through some type of heart check, some type of reality check, some type of transformation that she was allowing us to witness in hopes that we would learn from her or be able to identify what we were going through. So are you ready for an even deeper heart check about where you are in the midst of this busy, fast-paced world? Are you ready? You're ready, aren't you? I feel it. I sense it. Okay, let's jump into this conversation with Lovie Ajayi-Jones. It is so good.
Okay, so I have to ask, you've been super transparent on social media about the last year of your business and some of the hits you took. Our theme for the month of August is surrender to knowing hope, like to really know it. Yeah. And hope is so fleeting, especially in moments of change, in moments of...
transition. And so I am wondering, because it seems like you are at a space where you are sharing some of the lessons from it. How do you get to a point where you maybe from the outside looking in, it's like, oh my gosh, she's super boss, babe. She's on top of the world. She's doing all of the things. To then coming to a place of being healed enough to say, you know what? Last year you wouldn't have known it, but I was going through X, Y, and Z. Yeah.
I feel like the truth had to be told because I feel like the reasons why I went through what I went through was beyond myself. Okay. The fact that your August theme is surrender to hope, my theme in this season is surrender. Just surrender. And I... Yeah.
And I realized that, so my company crumbled. Like I fired everybody just for additional content. I fired everybody. I was about to go bankrupt. Like the company was about to go bankrupt in three months and I was in the trenches. Like it was the toughest year. I would say business and professionally too, because it had me questioning so many things about my assignment, myself. And honestly, there was a point where I was questioning where God was at in all of it. Cause I was like, not you getting me, having me in the jungle like this. And yeah,
The when I couldn't get out of bed, there was like one week where I did not get out of bed because I was just like I had nothing left. I was done. And it felt like everything in my power that I had tried had failed. All of it had failed. No matter what I did, no matter how much I tried to make things turn over, they did not work.
So it basically was like, okay, what am I supposed to be learning? Because this is beyond a business lesson. Yeah. And I feel like what I ultimately had to learn was that like, I kept on thinking I had to drive a car that I didn't even have the manual for. Like I did everything I could. I like talked to mentors. I, you know, took classes. I pivoted. I did all of that. It did not work. And I feel like God was throwing a stick at my head. Like,
You keep trying to drive a car that I'm supposed to be driving. Stop. Wow. And I finally had to stop to be like, okay, I ain't got it no more. You right. I'm gonna let you figure this out. So I had to talk about it because I was like, clearly this was a massive moment that I had to pay attention to and have to give attention to and have to talk about because it was such an interruption to my norm. Okay. So do you think
Because, man, okay. So surrender is our word for the year. So each month we're like surrendering to different things. So that's like the woman evolved stuff. So I'm so grateful that you're going to be a part of woman evolved because surrender is just the word that God must have dropped in a select few spirits. And he was like, I'm going to let you all share this lesson of surrender. I feel like we go into overdrive because we don't want to lose. Yeah.
And it's like, if I go into overdrive, I can avoid loss. I can avoid further pain. I can avoid heartbreak. I can win success. And we're in this overdrive mentality. And I am trying to wrap my mind around and share as I'm wrapping my mind around the reality that surrender is not defeat.
And I don't think that we can properly position our hearts for surrender if we think that I am ultimately saying that I'm going to lose. Because when we surrender to God, it's not defeat. Surrender to God is sometimes our only path to victory. But when we see surrender as loss, we see it as defeat. Like, how do we overcome that mentality? Oof. So...
Overdrive did not work for me. I went into overdrive. I was working 14 hour days. I was trying to figure out, I was talking to eight people. I was doing all of that. And when overdrive does not work, what do you have left? Like if you are doing everything in your power, it's not working. Sometimes you just need to stop. So I think about surrender as like,
Accepting that sometimes the assignment is the pause. Sometimes the pause is actually part of the assignment. Like I have been running my company. I've been running my company for 10 years. I have been I've always been a type A person who's like, I get things done. I trust me, if nothing else. And.
It was burning me out in ways where I end up in bed for a week and was canceling conferences I was supposed to go to. Like I was supposed to be going to a conference in Hawaii. And the day before, I literally, my husband is like, so have you packed? And I was like,
I don't know if I can make it. I don't know if I can make that. Yeah, I don't know if I can do it. I ain't going to be able to do it. He literally was like, go take a nap. And I took a nap and I woke up and I was like, I'm still exhausted. It's still. Tap me out. So the surrender of it sometimes is a necessity. And for me, it took a lot for me to finally get to surrender because I kept on thinking I had the power to fix it.
So I was fighting that hole. I was thinking surrender was defeat too because I was like, no, I can't. Finally, I had to get to the point that's like, no, you've done everything you can. You've tried all the logical things. So maybe this is a spiritual moment, spiritual lesson. And actually not maybe, it definitely is because you're uncomfortable in your body right now. So the pause might be, this is the season of pause. Okay, so I'm going to tell you my surrender story. I was...
We moved from LA to Dallas. My dad is at an age and stage in his life where he's trying to figure out what does succession look like. When I moved to LA, I never thought I was coming back to Dallas. I was like, why? You know what I mean? My husband's from California, born and raised. And so it just became increasingly clear that there was something about my life that was connected to us coming back to Dallas.
And God gave us sign after sign. I surrender. I come to Dallas.
the top of the year, like there's these rumors going wild on the internet that are not true and we're getting inundated with comments and stuff. And I was just like, God, like how did you, like why would you call me back here for something like this to happen? Like it just feels very vulnerable. It feels very unprotected. We can't really defend ourselves. No one's listening. It's like, it's a thing.
And I was really upset with God in the midst of that feeling misled, trying to figure out like, how did this happen? And I felt like surrender for me this year has been surrendering to not being in control-
of other people's narrative or being so committed to my narrative that I miss out on God's faithfulness and what God can do. And I think that I really had to get to this place where I was like, if God called me here to be on the ship when the ship goes down, then I must be supposed to be here. Like I cannot...
make it where it has, like we going from level to level or we're not going anywhere at all. Like if God has called me here because he wanted me to be here as support as they were going through a tough time, not because I wanted to see acceleration, then I have to accept that. And that has been, surrender just creates so much vulnerability. You feel naked. You feel naked. You feel naked. Like I think for me, surrender created vulnerability.
Where I thought it would create fear, it created relief. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can see that. Yeah. Where when I finally was like, look, I don't have it. If you want the ship to sink, let it sink. To your point of the control, when we finally surrender the thing that we're holding on to, which in your case was narratives. And I was holding on to however way I was moving in my business. Yeah.
It's because we're afraid of what happens when we let go. Like we're afraid of where it would take us. Yeah. But if we already find ourselves in a moment of valley. Right. How much lower can it take you at this point? Where? I started playing out like worst case scenarios and I'm like, people don't believe us. They don't believe our messages are viable. They don't believe that we can add any value to their lives in the way that we've added value. And...
Maybe that season of your life is over and then you are maybe you finally get your cosmetology license and you finally can start braiding hair legally. Like maybe this stage of your life is over. Like this is not going to kill you. Like no matter what happens, like you it may kill an image.
It may kill your idea of what you thought your life was going to look like, but this is not going to kill you because whenever I was walking outside of my house, like as much as it was loud on the internet, like these folks at Target were not, they didn't know nothing about this. Like everybody was still in their cars. Like this world was still,
And I'm like, you're acting like your world is falling apart, not trusting that even if that version of your life is over, that you have a faithful God that can still show up in the next season. And I just had to surrender. And it did. It brought me peace. At first, I was very anxious. I had so much anxiety in my body. And then finally, I was like, whatever it is, the real context of I can do all things through Christ is I can do...
All things through Christ, whatever this looks like, I'm going to be able to survive. I can do this. It's not going to kill me. Yes, facts. And I think part of the moment of surrender happens after you have spent too much time in a season or an assignment that is no longer yours. Oh, like I think you end up being forced to surrender. Yeah.
Because you didn't listen before that it was time to move forward. So sometimes in all our stubborn human glory, we got to be pushed to make that change and that shift. We've gotten signs that we were supposed to make that change already, but we ain't listen or we doubted it or we were too afraid to do it. And I feel like in those moments is when God will throw a stick at your head and be like, no.
you ain't hear my last three things that I said to you. I said, be done. And then fine, I guess I got to like interrupt and like disrupt something that you were doing. So you start paying attention and have no other choice. And I really feel like that's what happened with me. Like, I feel like I had ignored any of the signs of like, you got to start moving different because in business, so like my business, I'm a speaker, I'm an author, I'm
And I have other things, but the speaking and the writing have brought in most of my revenue for the last... That's how I built my multi-million dollar company. But all of the work depended on me showing up and my creativity. It depended on me, me, me, me, me, me, me. It was a...
And I had been clear that I can't move like that anymore because it was already wearing me out. Like, if the only dollars that I can make is from my brain or me stepping on a stage, what happens if I need to just take a break? Everything comes crumbling and that's what ended up happening. So it was almost like...
Why couldn't I build the company that I actually wanted to build that can allow me to honor my purpose while also not exhausting me? Yeah. I didn't believe it was even possible. And I didn't realize I didn't believe it until after the fact. OK, so I was going to say, do you believe it's possible now? Yes. Yes. Because the other thing is I'd been very disconnected from God and I didn't realize how disconnected I was. I was praying. I was. But I wasn't.
aligned in the way I should have been. So I wasn't trusting what was in front of me. I wasn't trusting the divine order. I was just like, it's me, me, me. I have to do everything. So I think when I think about last year and what the grander lessons are is to get back to trusting the divine design for me and knowing that it can happen with or without my, I honestly, my effort is not what moves it forward. It's my belief. Yeah.
It's my belief that moves it forward. Not my effort, but my belief. So that's where I'm at. That's the season I'm at is getting back to that alignment. And me and God be having some conversations about it. Okay. The fact that it is your belief that moves it forward is blessing me. And you know, I'm a church girl. Oh my goodness. The opportunity to believe differently happens in surrender. Yes. Yeah. Yep.
And I think that's the gift that so many of us need is an opportunity to believe differently. We think we need the thing. But what if God is really trying to get us to believe differently? And so until we surrender the thing, we can't lay hold of the new belief. That's it. Until we let it go. Until we just say, OK, it's OK. And you know what book actually was a catalyst to be realizing it?
Dr. Anita Phillips, The Garden Within. Yeah, yeah. The week that I could not get out of bed, where I literally was like, I'm just going to lay here, cancel all my meetings. I don't have it. I am going to disappoint people this week, which is something that always, I can't disappoint people. It's one of my values. I want to always be the person that shows up. And I got in bed on Tuesday. On Saturday, I picked up The Garden Within. And I got to a particular chapter and a page where it said, your pain makes sense.
And it broke me in the best way where I was like, oh, my. I've also been carrying everybody else's traumas and disbelief on top of mine. I'm writing that down. And we're going to circle back about this. Go ahead. Keep talking. Your pain makes sense. When I tell you, I literally was like, I'm not just carrying my own disbelief and my own disconnection.
I have been sitting under other people's disbelief, other people's traumas, other people's stories. So I didn't believe what was for me because I said, what happened to them? So in reading that, it had me going, this whole time, my disbelief wasn't just about my life. It's other people's too that I've been carrying. And that really kind of started me on a journey of recognizing that. And that is when I believe my surrendering started because I was like, fam,
You got to drop not just your pain, other people's pains around you because you've been absorbing it. This is an ugly conversation because this is ugly. This is ugly. I don't enjoy this.
OK, so when you talked about not wanting to let people down because, you know, you you you want to be a woman of your word, you want to do what you say that you're going to do. How much of that is your own inherited personality? How much of it is like cultural to the context of your family? Because I think when you talk about caring other people's.
I think we need Dr. Anita. Is this an interview or group therapy? We don't understand what is happening. But I do think that like, man, part of what I've struggled with as a working mother in ministry is the reality of me nursing my own child.
And so...
I have had to work on this. You know, I want to show up. I want to make sure that I'm making the best of every opportunity and I want to hit the ground running. But I don't want my children to experience what I experienced. I told you it's ugly. And so I have to incubate a belief that has not permeated my bloodline yet.
Which means that sometimes this new belief is fragile. Sometimes this new belief, it just feels like it could just easily be lost if I'm not vigilant about protecting it. Because I have to believe, I choose to believe that I can maximize the gifts and talents and anointing that God has given me.
and be present in my family, in my marriage, and for my child. I have to believe that the cost of success is not my family. I have to believe that. I can't afford to believe differently. Yes. Yes. We have been told we have to choose. Yes. And that has embedded in us all sorts of feelings of inadequacy. Yeah. Because when we are not
showing up in the way we want to show up, then we start questioning whether we are worthy of the blessings and of the love and of the gifts. And I stay in that mode too often, right? So I am the baby of three.
But I've always been the responsible one. Okay, I feel it. I feel it. I've always been the one who I'm like, mom, don't worry about me. I got it. I will make sure I get myself to school. I will, I'm not going to ask you for nothing. I got me because I know you're worried about other things. I got me. And what that also created was this sense of responsibility, deep responsibility for other people who I love, where...
Maybe some ego attached, but maybe it's from survival mode where I'm like, I can't let them down because I've been let down and I don't want to be that person for them. So I remove the option for me to let them down. I remove that option. And I think that permeates everything.
What happens when you can't actually show up? How do you think about yourself? Yes. Like, oh, how do you think about yourself? So literally, I was like, your words, all of it. Like, I was like, oh, my God, I'm being a terrible wife because I can barely function right now. I'm being a terrible boss because y'all all getting on my nerves and I'm about to fire everybody. I'm being a terrible friend because I missed your text message because I just don't have it right now.
So then what happens in the middle of you trying to surrender is you also trying to not add shame to the surrender. Oh, not add shame, because here's the thing is the shame is the one that really gets you in bed because you go. So now that I have nothing to give, now that I have nothing to offer, what is my value? Yeah. Yeah.
And I was having a conversation with one of my friends yesterday and she was like, even as we're talking about you right now, because I was like, am I even showing up for God in the way he wants me to show up? Yeah. And she was like, your mistake is you keep thinking you can earn grace. Yeah. And I'm like, with people, with God, with whoever in whatever space is we are constantly attaching how we can give, how much we can give. Yeah.
to what we can get and have and keep. And that, so you want to talk about a new belief that is fragile? Yeah. The belief that even when I have nothing to offer, even when I have nothing to give and I am, I have zero in my cup, I am still worth love, grace, patience, kindness being seen. So yeah, that's... At this point, it's a sleepover. Okay.
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You know, there's a lot of conversation about like deconstructing faith that's happening. And some of it I think is very legitimate. I think some of it could be a little troublesome. And so that phrase means a lot to different people. And so in the context of this conversation,
one of the things that I have had to personally deconstruct for myself in my perception of my faith and my relationship with the Lord is performance. And I think it does have a lot to do with our cultural worldview. I think it has a lot to do with just being black in general and performance being a part of how we show up in the world. I've got all of these theories as to how we got there, but here we are. And I think understanding...
through the lens of there's nothing you can do to make me more God. Like there's nothing you can do to make me love you more or to make me love you less. Like I am who I am because of who I am and my holiness and my goodness is not contingent on your performance and surrendering to that level of love
Like that's worship. You know what I mean? It's not like what you did for me and that I got this car, that I got this job is that if I didn't do any of it, that you'll meet me here in the midst of the bankruptcy, in the midst of the brokenness, because you didn't care about any of those things. Like to know God as comforter, to know God as love and not just like the judge and the ruler.
or like that produces righteousness and holiness and like all of these things that we thought was going to be based on our performance is really a heart posture and receiving that heart posture has been like one of the things that I've had to deconstruct especially as someone like I was
I got pregnant during purity culture. I was like, listen, we know she's never going to have a relationship with God now. So I might as well do whatever. And like in my 30s to come to a place to recognize that like God loved me then. Like maybe when other people rejected me, maybe when like he was, his love was just waiting for me to see through someone else's red tape. And yeah.
I think that that journey of deconstruction is one that every person who is performance driven should consider really embarking on. Like there's a song, Gyra. And like sometimes I just play the beginning part over and over and over again. I've never been more loved than I am right now. Oh my gosh. That song makes me cry. Wasn't holding you up. So there's nothing I can do to let you down. That song makes me cry. That song.
The other one that makes me cry is Oceans. Yeah. Oh, I got married to Oceans. Spirit lead me where my trust is without borders. Don't play with me. Girl. Don't play with me. Where my trust is without my borders. Wherever you may call me. Where my feet could never wonder. Okay. Like I've been playing that in repeat and I just got the tattoo on my wrist in my handwriting that says boundless.
Boundless. Because I want to be reminded of that boundless love. My name means God's love. My name. Wow. My first name is Ifeoluwa. That's where lovey came from. It's Yoruba for... The Ife part is love. The Oluwa is God. God's love. It's a prophecy. It's a prayer. It's a life path that I am just starting to receive. Jeez. Like, to know... Like, what you just said about... He didn't care about the bankruptcy. Like...
In fact, he did that to show me like at my worst, I'm still worthy of love. At my worst, he was still there. Like me and God had to have a conversation. It's like, where was you at? I was right there. But you had to go through this. Yeah. Because you need to understand that the fears that you have about worst case scenarios, they can happen. You will still be fine. Yeah. I still have you. Yeah. I still have you. Like your fear is so big, you forget I'm in it. Yeah. Yeah.
So, yes, like I've been replaying Oceans and I've been replaying Dependable God, those songs. Like for me in this moment, I'm deepening. I'm like, sometimes if I don't have any prayer, let me just listen to music. So, yes, the prayer of spirit lead me where my trust is without borders. I need that. I promise y'all like sometimes y'all just be letting songs play. But if y'all read them lyrics, the words are there. Yeah.
The words are there. Okay, so can I ask you, and if you're not comfortable, we don't have to answer. So as a type A woman, as someone who has experienced a lot of success in the context of surrendering to God's love and the way that God's love shows up through our relationships, marriage, and surrendering and trusting that love.
That in your worst state, like in your non-performative, I have nothing to offer you. And this, I don't know if yours is like mine, but this is when this man is like, I love you the most. Like when I, I feel like when I love me the least.
That's when his love is the most for me. Because I'm just like, I'm not showing up in the way that I want to show up. I'm not like that vulnerability. It takes a minute to really lean into that. My husband...
In the moments when I am like, I hate everything. I can't function. He will stop and just like hold me in a long hug, even though I'm ready to like doing stuff. He would just like hold me. And meanwhile, I'm like, but I need to go do other things. He's like, no, no, no, we're going to pause. We're going to pause. We're going to pause. His love has been healing to me. Because in the moments when I am not present, not trusting, he trusts me.
On my behalf, like, and there are times when I'm like, am I really worthy of that? I feel like I owe him something. Right, right, right. And it's been like, no, no, no, just, just be, just relax. And that is healing to somebody who's always felt like she's had to earn that. Yeah. I've always felt like I've had to earn that. So it's been such a counter narrative. And I realize now it's like a sliver, a sliver, a fraction of God's love.
You know, like the manifestation of what it looks like to heal that wound of I have to constantly earn. I feel like is what marriage has been for me. And I am deeply thankful for it. And and I'm just now also seeing the mirror of the wounds that I need to heal.
and how he like will show up for me and be like, I got it. Don't worry about it. You go do what you need to go do. Home is handled. And that, if nothing else, even at my worst, I was like, I am just so grateful for that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I wanted to ask you all the types of things and I am running out of time. Don't enjoy. Okay. Ask me the things. I'm here. Okay.
Okay, so to be a black woman this summer, lots of things have. Is it a black girl summer? We don't know. We can't call it because sometimes it looks like we're up and sometimes it looks like we're down. We're going to do the work, though. We are. We're going to do the work. How do you... How are you... How are you... What are you telling yourself in this season of...
Potential vitriol of hope, excitement, fragility, and then requirement for resiliency and intentionality and intensity. Oof. Oof. What I'm telling myself is one, I cannot do and be everything to everybody. Okay. And trying to embody that by knowing what my role is. Yes.
I want to just know my role, do my part and let everybody else do their other parts in this human group project, in this political group project, in this sisterhood group project. So this summer and, you know, as the whole election season is about to start, understanding what's going to be thrown at us. One, I need us to hold on to the good feelings of this week, of the beginning of like, oh, my gosh, we might have a black woman coming.
Hold on to the good feelings of everybody rallying because when the weapons form, they're not going to prosper. But when they form, we got to remember that I think we're in a moment of reckoning. But on the other side of reckoning is goodness. So it might be rough for the next couple of months because they're going to try to throw things at us. They're going to try to make us put us in our place.
For me, hope is necessary in everything. I think hope is everything because when we have hope, when we have the dream of a different outcome, of a good outcome, we can work, we can get out of bed. If we don't have hope, we have nothing. So for me, I'm holding on to hope by surrounding myself with other amazing black women. I'm holding on to hope by staying present and then also making sure that I'm taking care of one of God's favorites, which is me.
Period. Period. I gotta drink my water. Okay, so I have to tell you, I have such a dilemma because I
I have never endorsed a political candidate. I don't talk politics. A lot of it has to do with ignorance more than anything, to be honest, because everything I think I know is then debunked by, I'm like, yes, I read that. And then it's like this new thing that comes down, like, well, actually, that's not true. And it's like just trusting and knowing, like, what can I count on? What can I not count on? Recognizing that neither political party follows
fully represents my values. So it, you know what I mean? Like neither one. And then we're like, it's not about personalities. Well, it might as well be because it can't be about policy. It was
Because neither one of these people fully represents. So now I am having to choose based off of what I know and what I can work with. The person who I feel is going to be the most accurate, though blurry, though false, though smudge. I'm not saying perfect. But the person who I think is the most accurate reflection of what I believe to be
the values of what I believe God wants to do in the earth and how I'm showing up in the earth as a reflection of that. Yes. So what's your dilemma? That's it. That's the whole dilemma. Listen,
I just, I feel a sense of reason. I'm trying to figure out with the platform and influence that God has given me. I guess what my role is, to be honest. Like, I think that, you know, I preach Jesus. I talk about the Lord. Like, and within that group, you would split things right down the middle, depending on what side you took. Yeah. Yeah.
So there was just this call with When With Black Women on. I know I wasn't invited. Nobody told this. I want to be one of the people who did not get invited. I saw it right post and stuff. I said everyone had a conversation without me. Sarah, how you not invite? Listen, don't worry. Don't worry. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. You will. You never have to worry about not being invited again. Trust me and believe. First of all, I got that link also in multiple group chats. I've been a part of When With Black Women since 2020 and
And when I knew the call was going to be huge is when group chats that had nothing to do with nothing were circulating the link. And I was like, oh, this is about to have the people, the people, the
I need to no longer be an introvert because I don't have friends and people are talking and I am sitting at home watching TV. You ain't got no group chats. I'm pulling into the group. Come on. I got you. Don't worry about it. But you're going to get the link. But, you know, so the one with black women, women is a lot of like organizers, a lot of powerhouse black women who you may or may not even know their names. But these are the women who helps organizations.
make Ketanji Brown Jackson a Supreme Court justice. So they've been organizing for four years. Like when would black women has been doing a phone call every Sunday for the last four years since 2020, we made sure that Biden got in place because all those swing States could get in lockstep, but those of us with platforms. So I sit on both sides where every four years, I'm a digital organizer too. I add that to my list, but yeah,
I also have this platform that people listen to. So I realized my role with that platform is to remind people of hope. So I think we can share that alignment and to remind people to seek truth.
So one of the things that's going to be happening is you're going to be finding all sorts of, this person did this. What is truth? Seek truth. Which means double check your sources, right? And I think the other piece that we also wield in common is that people trust us. People trust our judgment, will trust our word. For me, I'm going to be using my platform to speak for people to vote blue this year, like loudly. Hey, I'm going to need you because the other...
side, Project 2025. And what they want to do is so dangerous that even if you do have issues with voting blue, we can at least
Put her feet in the fire and be like, hey, we need you to push on this. And she's surrounded by black women. Kamala Harris is surrounded by black women who will push her and say, hey, we need this. And she will listen. So at the minimum, I want to vote for the person who at least will listen. Not the person who won't even have us in the room. That dude is not going to have us in the room. So I know my role is like preach hope. Basically, I'll be giving people TED talks over and over again, reminding them to look for what is true.
And then telling them, listen, need your vote, need you to come out, need you to work at a poll, do something in that way. So even if you're not, you haven't been using your platform to talk politics, there's different things that you can do to activate your platform. You can tell people to become volunteers, right? They need volunteers for polls so people aren't standing in line for six hours, right?
It might be the difference between somebody standing in line for 30 minutes and six hours. Hey, even if you don't go, go volunteer at a poll, you know, donate five dollars to a small organization that is doing democracy work. So even if you don't want to talk about specifically vote blue, you can help your audience figure out like other ways they can use their power and make power moves, you know.
Well, thank you for your time. Send me an invoice with the payment plan. With the payment plan, it is summer. And I do have a conference coming. And you do have a conference. And I do have a conference. I do not buy my kids snacks because if conference goes over budget, you don't get granola bars. Listen, save Sarah's kids and bring them some granola bars and buy these Women Evolve tickets. Stop playing with us.
Well, this was delightful. And this has brought me just so much peace. So thank you for your light. Thank you for your transparency, your authenticity. I obviously experienced it online, but being able to engage with you in this way is new and refreshing. And I'm grateful. So thank you. Listen, I'm grateful for the ways you use your voice, your power, your platform. And because that in itself is world shifting. So thank
You know, I'm always here cheering you on. Like, I just randomly slide in your text like Sarah, and you always respond. I know you be getting a thousand texts, but you always respond. You make black women feel seen. And that in itself is a revolution. Like, you make us feel seen. You make us feel heard. You normalize our imperfect spaces. And then you also remind us that God still loves us, which...
Listen, God is proud. That's what I told you on your birthday. God is proud of you. And that is all we need is to honor self purpose and God. So thank you for doing that. My pleasure. I'm going to be honest with you. I feel like Lovey and I need to start a worship team.
You may not agree. You may not agree, but you'd be wrong. You'd be wrong because I really felt a little... I am becoming my mother, but I felt that Holy Ghost on them songs. There's nothing like those worship songs really hitting, getting down in your core. I hope that you enjoyed this conversation with her just as much as I did. It truly was a blessing to me and I'm praying it was the same for you. You know, next time I come on this podcast, I have saved a few stories for Rescue Eve. I am...
I'm trying to make fetch be a thing and I'm going to sit down and we're going to go through these rescue Eve stories and you guys are going to get it and you're going to love it. And then you're going to start sending me your own rescue stories. And we're going to have a whale of a time, a whale of a time.
Are you looking forward to it? Man, this has been a call and response episode. I think it's a result of me being tired. Anything that I say here that sounded crazy, just charge it to the game and not to the Lord and take everything I said to your personal relationship with Jesus and
let me know what sticks and what you twist and send me a note so that I can make it better for everyone who is listening. Okay. I am praying for you. I promise you, I'm just tired, not burnt out. I went to bed at like two o'clock. I got up at five for service. So I'm tired, but not burnt out. Viva la difference. Okay. I'm going to sleep on this plane. I'm going to be back three, 3000. Okay. I'm going to pray for us all Lord, who are trying to navigate this life with, with
wisdom, tenacity, with intentionality, that we would be able to witness your glory manifested in our weakness.
Your glory manifested in our effort. How great are you, God, that you would allow your gifts, your talents, your love, your ideas to flow through all that we do. May we prove ourselves to be worthy vessels by not hijacking your anointing, by not hijacking your gifts and talents and claiming them for ourselves, but instead being willing to surrender. Amen.
to lay them at your feet, to say, I need you more than I need to work.
that I need you more than I need to perform. And from that place of connection, may we be restored, refueled. May we refocus our hearts on what truly matters. And may we find the effortless flow that comes with us simply just saying, not your will, but mine be done. In Jesus name I pray. Amen. I love you and I will talk to you soon.
I'm not gonna stop.
I think I love it, love it. Never underestimate the power of attorney. Always bet on tax. Reasonable Doubt. New episodes Thursdays. Streaming only on Hulu. Hey y'all, Dr. Joy here. I invite you to join me every Wednesday on the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a weekly chat about mental health and personal development, where my expert guests and I discuss the unique challenges and triumphs faced by Black women through the lens of self-care, pop culture, and building the best version of you.
So if you're looking for more ways to incorporate wellness into your life, listen to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, from Wonder Media Network, I'm Jenny Kaplan, host of Womanica, a daily podcast that introduces you to the fascinating lives of women history has forgotten.
Who doesn't love a sports story? The rivalries, the feats of strength and stamina. But these tales go beyond the podium. There's the team table tennis champ, the ice skater who earned a medal and a medical degree, and the sprinter fighting for Aboriginal rights. Listen to Womanica on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
