The Engagement (Season 1, Episode 1)
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Hi, Jennifer Simard. Hi, Patrick Hines. I love you so much. I love you more times two plus one. Oh, my goodness. I didn't even let you get all the way through the math equation. Mm-hmm. Google infinity.

So, girl, why don't we start by explaining what this Golden Girls Deep Dive podcast even is? And we can also, like, tell them a little bit about who we are. That sounds great. So, the idea of the Golden Girls Deep Dive podcast is that we're starting from the beginning of the series and we're going to go in order. So, each episode, we're going to recap an episode of the Golden Girls and we're providing our hilarious commentary and looking gorgeous doing it. I love that you gave us, like, a hilarious. Hilarious.

hilarious commentary starting now, but it isn't your typical recap show. No, sir. No, ma'am. Because we have a full-time researcher. Thank you very much. Hi, Jess. So throughout the recaps, we're going to be squeezing in every last piece of trivia and all the interesting info we can. We get a

full dossier on the episode. So like we come into like our recordings, like we have so much to tell you in addition to just like being silly. And then the other thing is though, Patrick and I go and we do our own research and then we don't tell each other what we found. And so it just gets us going. And then we go, I think one of our things we've realized is like, how far are we going on this deep dive? Deep dive.

this deep dive gonna be? But then also, at the end of each episode, we then do a full, like, 15-minute deep dive into something from the Golden Girls universe. So at the end of today's episode, I'm doing a full deep dive on the actor Charles Levin, who played Coco the gay chef. Like, he had this amazing career after sort of getting fired from the Golden Girls. I know, we're like,

Where's Coco? I know, but then he like died kind of mysteriously. So we're going to do things like that. There's going to be deep dives on like the Betty White, Bea Arthur feud. All the juicy stuff. All the juicy stuff. Now, the other thing we want you to know, though, is that we want to connect with you. Yes. Please, right? So join our Facebook group. So the Facebook group is called the Golden Girls Deep Dive Podcast Discussion Group. It's on Facebook. We're going to be in there all the time, just like hanging out, talking to you, talking about the episodes, sharing all the Golden Girls memes, everything that you can think of.

It's going to be the place for our community to come together and connect. Right. And follow us on Instagram and TikTok to see the video versions of these hilarious moments. Hilarious moments. Hilarious moments. From the episodes. And we'll follow you back and it'll be great. We are at Golden Girls Deep Dive in both places on TikTok and on Insta. So girl, I guess we should also, for those of you who don't know us, we should tell you a little bit about who we are. Yeah, that's a good idea. You go first. Okay. My name is Patrick Hines. I'm the co-host of a true crime podcast called True Crime Obsessed. I

I recently wrote a book called Failure is Not Not an Option, which is like a comedy memoir about like the 12 funny stories I tell at cocktail parties about like big epic failures in my life and sort of like the lessons I learned from them. And one of them includes a story of spending like an evening with Bea Arthur and I was obsessed with her and the feelings were not mutual. She did not like me very much at all. Yeah.

Yeah. Tell them who you are, star. Me? Thank you for that. No, I'm Jennifer Smart. Hey, how are you? Well, give them some credits. I will. It's hard to do it when it's talking about yourself. I know. But I'm a two-time Tony Award nominee. Yes. I'm primarily a Broadway actress. Yes.

Are you going to tell them what you were nominated for? I was nominated for Disaster, where I played a nun with a gambling addiction. And I was nominated for Company, the revival of Company, where I played Sarah. Do you know that Steve and I saw Disaster off-Broadway? We saw it on Broadway, too, but we saw it off-Broadway. And I remember being like, who is this?

Oh. With you. And Steve knew exactly who you were because you were also in the original off-Broadway company of I Love You, You're Perfect, Now Change. That's right. Which is one of Steve's favorite shows. That's right. That show ran for 12 years off-Broadway and it changed my life. Hopefully by the time this pilot airs, we will have just done Death Becomes Her in Chicago. Yes, you're going to start Death Becomes Her in Chicago and then on Broadway. Yeah. So I get to play the Goldie Hawn part and I'm just tickled pink about it. Oh.

Got it. Well, I love you so much. Tell me about your, how you came to the Golden Girls. Has it just always been there for you? Oh, well, I first saw it...

You know, I'm Gen X, so I used to watch it at my grandmother's house. And I recognized it was funny, but, you know, I was still a kid. And then when I moved to New York in my 20s, I started watching it like on reruns and stuff. And I was like, wait a minute, hold the phone. And then, of course, I ordered the DVD set and I started to go home and watch it with my mother. And the two of us just dove right in. And in fact, it's the last thing I actually watched with my mother before she passed away. It was the episode where Rose is on the cruise with...

and, you know, makes love for the first time after her marriage. Wait, is it Arnie or is it Miles? We have to go look and do a deep dive because it's the same actor. But we don't know which character. Remember she says, hold me. Oh my God.

Oh, yeah. I watched The Golden Girls in its original airing on Saturday nights because it came on just before Sisters on NBC. I was in like fifth or sixth grade or something. I was a blooming gay slut and I loved it all. I just like. You were Blanche. I was Blanche and my mom was like a poor alcoholic and recovery lesbian who just did not have time to try to steer me towards more wholesome choices. So she was fine. We would watch it together. I just laugh and laugh. Like,

The episode where we learn that Blanche's initials are bad. Oh, my God. Your initials spell bad? Do you have a favorite Golden Girls episode? Oh, well, in our Coffee Clutch meeting. Yes. When we talked about this, remember we had to write them down on a notepad? Oh, my God. I forgot we did that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I remember mine. Do you remember yours? Do you want to reveal them now? Yeah. Now, I have so many favorites. It's hard. It's like picking your favorite child, right? Yeah. If pressed. If pressed.

I love Murder Mystery Weekend. Oh, that's a good one. That is a good one. Mine, I think, is in the first season. It's the Dr. Jonathan Newman one. Oh, God. Matt Doyle and I talked about it so much. Shrimp. I mean, it is so good. So good. Should we get started? Let's do it. So, people. So, cheesecakes. So, cheesecakes.

We should call our listeners. Our listeners are officially called the Cheesecakes. Oh, that's so good. So episode one is called The Engagement. Now, I've seen it in places just be called The Pilot and in other places be called The Engagement. The Engagement. It aired September 14th, 1985. September 14th, 1985. The world is about to change. Yeah, seriously. The world is about to change. Oh, this show. And I'm just, I'm trying to imagine like being home on that Saturday night and like for the very first time hearing that...

Thank you for being a friend. I'm obsessed. It's written by Susan Harris. It's directed by Jay Sandrich. Now, I have some trivia for the episode that I'm going to sprinkle throughout. Yeah. But I wanted to say, I wanted to point out at the top, this episode won an Emmy for Outstanding Technical Direction, which sounds like a weird thing to care about, but when you watch the

episode, the way that it flows so seamlessly is kind of magical. The way that it goes from like room to room and like, I don't know, technically it feels like a very well-directed episode. It does. And forgive me for popping your balloon, but I noticed some things that don't continue later in the series that kind of jarred me a little bit regarding the technical filming of it. So we'll talk about that as we get there. Oh my God. Okay, great. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

And so, like, you know, you watch the opening, you watch the opening credits. Now, we're seeing, like, scenes from the series that we haven't seen yet because it's, like, the pilot episode, right? Right. And the first thing I noticed was the billing. Oh. And what I found most interesting about the billing was that it's not in alphabetical order. Rue McClanahan kind of got the shit under the stick. Who's billed first? So, Beatrice Arthur. It's always so weird to see her name. It's just B. Arthur. You're like, Beatrice Arthur.

She's the opposite. Like, she's the best, but she's the opposite of like a classy Downton Abbey. Just a Shakespearean, that well-known Shakespearean actress, Beatrice Alver. Can you imagine? But I think she was the most famous at that point because of Maude. Yes, of course. Then Betty White, arguably the second most famous because of Mary Tyler Moore. She played Sue Ann Nevins. And then Rue McClanahan is third.

But she was Vivian Harmon also on Maud. Maud, she was like in Mama's Family or something. Yeah, right before that. But she...

it's just interesting to me that Betty White they considered I think a bit more famous because I mean W came before M right and then Estelle Getty a theater actress not known on television at all isn't that wild I know that this came to her so late in her career so late in her career and she's got the prestigious position of and Estelle Getty oh it makes sense if you think about it because she's not

She's the mother. She's sort of separate from them. Yes. But she was initially not meant to be on every episode. So she was kind of always going to be like on every couple of episodes. And then that changed after the filming of the pilot. Yeah. So it opens at the end of the theme song and we get that iconic transition theme music, which just makes me want to pick up a chair. I don't know. It makes me want to move something. Really? Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.

My favorite moments in the transition music are in the episodes where a car pulls into the driveway and then like the driver's side door opens, but nobody gets out. Or like the car pulls into the driveway and the trunk opens, but nobody gets out of the car. You know, I saw the house in person. I think it was on a Disney World tour. Yes. Right? Well, it's in two locations. They have the set of the house on the Disney World. That's what I saw.

But then there's the real house, which I think I want to do a deep dive on at some point, too, because the real house is in California. And a road trip. And a road... Okay, we'll do a live episode from right in front of that house. On the lawn. I know. On the lawn. Come on. I live there in my head, so why not? It was just on the market last year. I think it sold for like $3 million. It sure did. Can you imagine? Can you imagine? Yes. And the inside looks nothing like what it looks like in the show. Well, praise Jesus for that. I know. I mean...

I know. We'll talk about that in a second. I know. So Dorothy is the first to enter. And my first note is she's just dressed like a paper bag. She's wearing that like paper bag brown over shirt with like the mustard yellow undershirt. And she enters through the front door carrying a briefcase the size of a car.

She's like coming home from a long day of substitute teaching. Like, what's in the briefcase, B? What's in there, girl? I know. Can I just say, as she passes through the living room, we get a glimpse of the living room for the first time. Now, despite the wicker furniture, I think it's kind of nice. Well, there's so much. There's a lot of space in this living room as New Yorkers. And skylights and stuff. Skylights. And then there's, I'm obsessed not with the furniture in the front, but all the, there's all these seats.

seating nooks in the back. And a very fake-looking fireplace that's never been lit. No. And there's like another whole table back. There's like a glass-topped table. The lighting is very dim. Picture them playing their late-night gin rummy. I know. And it is like that space that never gets used. Ever. But it looks kind of classy. Except for those horrible cinderblock walls right outside the front wall. At the front door? Yes. That is a

weird entryway right there. And like when you see the house from the outside, it doesn't make any sense. No. But then she walks into the kitchen. Right. And there's a man cooking at the stove. Who's the man at the stove? Well, I have the answer. It turns out it's Coco the cook. I know.

What's that? Enchiladas rancheros. Why don't you just shoot me? And he's cooking on a beautiful 1980s electric range. Yes. Speaking of brown, you said her brown paper bag outfit, that beautiful brown refrigerator. Oh, my God. Well, so this is the thing. We're in the kitchen now, and I've got some trivia about the kitchen because I'm a little bit obsessed. Because the kitchen, to me, is in stark contrast to, like, the softness of the living room. And the kitchen is just sort of this, like, uprooted,

ugly... It looked like the kitchen I grew up in, where there's, like, food stains on the floor and that really harsh overhead lighting. And it's, like, everything is yellow and, like, it's decorated, like, horrendously. But that was not... That kitchen set comes from another TV show. It's from a TV show called It Takes Two, starring Patty Duke Astin and Helen Hunt and Anthony Edwards. And they... It was owned by NBC, the TV show, and so was the set. And so they just kind of had it in storage. And when...

the pilot was reworked like the day or two before shooting, they needed a kitchen set because initially they didn't have a kitchen set in the pilot. And they're like, well, we'll just throw in this trashy kitchen set and make it work later. Like, we'll rework it after we record the pilot. But then they just never did. You know what I love about that is people think of TV and Broadway as so glamorous, but everyone's trying to save a buck where they can. Everyone. You know, NBC is no different, right? They're just like, well, why wouldn't we? Totally.

It's wild because if you look on YouTube, you can see video of like Helen Hunt, like in a different room, like young Helen Hunt, like from like Girls Just Want to Have Fun era. If you don't know it, look it up. Oh my God, it's like my favorite movie. So gay. And she like runs out of the living room into the kitchen and all of a sudden she's like in the Golden Girls kitchen. One day I want to do a deep dive of all the copper things that are hanging on the wall. Like there's a lobster, I think. For the longest time I was like, is that?

What is that? People think it's a penis thing. People think it's a dick. It's a lobster. It's a lobster. I love the idea of like Rose just like staying up late one night making her penis cakes, you

You know what I mean? She like sells them along with her bacon-ladded potato sandwiches. Right. And so naive. I know. So there's Dorothy bitching about her day. Rose comes in also after a stressful day, right? She volunteers at the grief counseling center. So they both have these noble professions that they both appear not to like very much. Right.

At this juncture. So Blanche comes in looking to borrow Dorothy's real, not fake fur, because hi, it's 1985. So this is the thing, because like Blanche's got a date that night and she's borrowing Dorothy's mink stole. Dorothy strikes me as the least likely of all of them to have a mink stole. Well, they were very fashionable in Brooklyn. I know.

And she just brought it with her to warm, sweaty, balmy Miami. You feel like then it would have been given to her as like an anniversary gift or something because they spent seven seasons talking about how ugly she is and how mannish and like unfeminine she is.

Because then Blanche also wants to borrow Rose's earrings. And I'm like, Blanche, do you not own anything, girl? Well, she does own something. Those epaulettes on her shoulders, right? They're the size of Dade County. I know.

Honestly, just brava, Blanche. The other thing, too, you notice right away is that Blanche doesn't have the accent. No, that develops in later seasons, right? And speaking of that, it's funny. And I'm going to talk about that in a second. All these actresses find their vibe later on. Totally. Especially past season one. And I think the best example of that is probably Bea Arthur. Yes. Her tone is...

in the beginning to me is very much more, it's much more like the Maude model. And in subsequent seasons, her vibe is so much more nuanced and subtle. And here it's a little broader and angrier. And the first time I really noticed it where she's like, Blanche, who is Harry? Blanche, who is Harry? I mean,

later, she might just be like, Blanche, who is Harry? Like, just dry. Still, she was so much more dry and still. Would you agree? 100%. And this is a hard thing to say about such a diva that we love so much, but I think she would get the most improved award. I agree. You know? Because the Blanches

thing is it feels like it transitions from the pilot to like the next episode because they said she came back to them after the pilot and was like, I want to do like a Mae West thing. And they're like, why don't you just like give us a Southern accent? And then all of a sudden it's there. You think about like Karen Walker from Will and Grace and how it really took her like the full season. You can hear it getting a little higher and a little more nasally. Because you're lived in the characters. I mean, I can relate to this just from a theatrical point of view. The longer you live in a character, the

the more you find and it becomes much more grounded. Yes. Because you know who they are. Right. And you don't really know at the beginning. And I hazard to guess these are some smart women. I'm sure they went back and looked at the dailies and went, oh. Right. You know, because they're and they just adjusted. Yeah. I wanted to talk about the costumes for just a second because you see Dorothy like in the brown paper bag shirt and the mustard yellow undershirt. And then you see Rose come in in that like beautiful blue and pinkish

pink, like 1950s house dress. And I'm just thinking, and then you've got like Coco, the gay chef standing at the, at the oven wearing like the floral print. And I'm just thinking like, what are they trying to tell? Like a pilot, you probably know about, like as an actress, you know better than I do, but like a

pilot has to get so much done very quickly. Yes. And one of the ways I think they're trying to tell us about these characters is through their clothes. So like Dorothy's a little bit frumpy, but she's, you know, but that's like a working woman's outfit. Whereas like. Always. They always had her in like,

the blazers and long trousers. I know. She was sort of, I think she created palazzos before they were a thing. And by the way, I do have a note about the costume designer's name is Judy Evans. Oh. And I talk about it later in the episode how good she was at coordinating their Miami Vice colors. Oh.

You know, they were all in different shades of pastels. Yes, because that's what Rose was wearing. And we'll learn later that Rose was very much like a housewife. And, you know, she sort of dresses like what I imagine June Cleaver's outfits really look like. My grandmother was a seamstress by trade. Oh, yeah. And she used to make her own dresses and patterns. And she would, at this era, she would pattern all of her dresses like Rose because she was built like Betty White. Really? Would she actually make them like, I'm going to make a dress like her? Yes, she did.

My mime. I'm obsessed. But I think it tells you something about the characters right away. Like Dorothy's more severe and then Rose is a little bit sweeter. Right. And Blanche is all about the curves. Yes. Now, Blanche is going out with a guy named Harry. And they've been on what, like three dates this week? They've been on dates and Blanche does break the news to the gals that Harry has proposed.

Yes. And I have to tell you, Patrick, they all run to the living room. And the first thing that I notice is that our beloved living room set is in the wrong position for my brain. Oh. It's more on a diagonal. Go back and look as opposed to what we're used to seeing. Oh, you're right. It's just like the one shot. I was like, wait a minute. Right. You know? And that's what they do, of course, in television. Wherever the camera is, they'll set it up differently. But it kind of threw me. I was like, wait a minute.

Well, because also, like, Coco follows. And I've got so many questions about Coco, right? So he's in the kitchen and he's, like, making them dinner. He's making them, like, enchiladas. Dorothy is not happy about it. No, she's not. But, like, what is his role? Like, I know, obviously, he's only going to be with us for the pilot. And he's my whole deep dive. So I got a lot of information on him coming your way. But, like, what is his, like, is he always on the clock? Does he...

he live there? Well, he does because we're getting ahead, but we see him in a bathrobe later. And what really confuses me is that Blanche must have come into money from George Devereaux or what we learned later was her life growing up because we've already established this. Dorothy is a substitute teacher. Rose volunteers at a grief counseling center. And we learn later that Blanche volunteers at a museum. These aren't exactly wealthy positions, but they have enough money to hire Coco the cook. A cook?

Right. And like in my deep dive about him, I learned that like initially I think the thought was they wanted the women in the original thought and this gets changed, but they wanted the women to sort of be a little wealthier than middle class. And they wanted them to be like after a lifetime of cooking and cleaning for their kids and husbands, they hired, you know, a chef or whatever. But like when you see him in like the middle of the night and like he's sitting there casually chatting, but then all of a sudden he's like, tea, Sophia? And you're like, wait, are you on the, are you always working?

working or... Well, to that point, I will say that when Sophia does arrive and we'll get there, I'm like, well, where does Coco sleep? Are Coco and Sophia sleeping together?

Sophia's in Dorothy's bed, presumably. I have so many questions about Coco. Right. And unfortunately, we'll never get the answer because Coco gets evicted as soon as this episode is over. Yeah. In talking about, this is so wild. We'll get into their ages in a second. But in talking about this date that Blanche is going on, they are talking about men in Miami in their 50s. He doesn't talk loud at the movies, doesn't take his own pulse, and he's still interested.

In what? Rose, if you have to ask, it does not matter anymore.

You're talking about 55-year-old men, which made me, I wanted to do a breakdown of everybody's age. Right. So we have Blanche, who we learn in the episode is about 53. Rue McClanahan was 51. Dorothy is between 53 and 55, but Bea Arthur was 63. Rose in season one is confirmed to be 55. Betty White is 63. And Sophia is 79. And Estelle Getty is 62 at the start of filming.

I want to say this right now. This bitch is 53. Look at you. The idea that Blanche Devereaux at the pilot was younger than I am now. I know. I'm going to need a moment. I would go in for the Golden Girls now. No, because like that's the whole thing. Like this was 1985. I know. But our perception of age has just completely changed.

Yeah. You know what I mean? But also what's out there available to people for beauty. Everything's changed. You know, it kind of reminds me of when I was a kid, Dynasty, that commercial with Linda Evans from Dynasty. She's like, 40 isn't fatal because I think 60 is the new 40 now. These bitches look good now. I mean, because you. They looked good then. Yeah. But now there's, you know, that Restylane and all that stuff and laser treatments. Right. You know, all this stuff. Science.

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Well, Blanche runs to the bedroom. She says, so he asked me to marry him. I'm going to go put on my face. Right? So she runs to the bedroom. She says, I'm going to go put on my face. She has more makeup on than a drag queen in a RuPaul's season finale. And she's going to go put her face on. Yeah, right. So she goes in there with her fully beat face. And this is where we learn from Rose that the house is actually Blanche's. Right. Yes. And she's wondering, what's going to happen to them? Our roommate status. If Blanche says yes, oh my God. What if she marries him?

What'll happen to us? This house is hers. Then we'll move. We can't afford to buy a house. What do we have for collateral? A gay cook? Oh, come on, Rose. Nobody is getting married. Now let's go talk to Blanche. Dorothy, we'll become bag ladies.

So they run to the bedroom. And this is like, I got to tell you, I'm on Rose's side here. Because it's like, I think it's a little bit inconsiderate of Blanche to not be thinking about this. Right. You know? Oh, I hadn't thought about that. That's later. We get that later. And it is kind of like, oh my God. Look, I know you and I know me. And if either one of us were in a situation where people were living in our homes and we might be getting married, the first thought that we would be having is to explain what's going to happen to them. Full codependent Kathys right here. Right. Yeah.

Oh, for sure. That's my nickname, Codependent Kathy. I'm so worried about the other people. Are they okay? We also, they're running to Blanche's bedroom, which is on the lanai. Thank you. And this is what I'm talking about. There's like 75 atomizers on her beauty station.

I don't know what any of this stuff is. I'm looking at her beauty. Nail polish. All it is like nail polish and like 75 perfumes and a decor that rivals Palm Sunday. I know. Okay, wait. So if we could take a second, if you'll indulge me, I'm obsessed with Blanche's wallpaper. I'm obsessed too. I need to hear about it. As a good gay, I did a little bit of a deep dive on the iconic wallpaper in Blanche's bedroom. So here's what I learned.

In 1942, interior designer Don Loper was hired to help decorate the yet-to-be-built new wing of the Beverly Hills Hotel. And he wanted to do something striking for the hotel's coffee shop, something that would evoke the easy-breezy attitude of the hotel's beautiful oceanside location.

And so the beautiful green palm leaves design was born. He invented it, like, specifically for the coffee house. The pattern is called Martinique and was custom designed specifically for the fountain coffee room at the Beverly Hills Hotel where it remains a fixture today. That's amazing. Which I'm dying to go see. And they say the hotel has even put together its own website. If you go to the hotel's website, you can see...

places that have used this iconic design, including the restaurant Indochine here in New York City. Oh, well, we have to go not only to Indochine, but we've got to go this in Los Angeles. I can't believe I've never been to the Beverly Hills Hotel. I'm obsessed with LA. I'm obsessed with hotels. Yeah. I have been to Indochine though. And I remember seeing it and being like, that's the wallpaper from like, I just always assumed it was created for

for Golden Girls. But no, they copied the design from this iconic designer, which I guess is meant to tell us something about Blanche that she's fancy and would know this Martinique designer or whatever. Right, of course. But I loved it. You think it's tacky? I don't love it in her bedroom because it's used to excess.

Yes. I actually do like it in small doses. Yeah. It's really pretty. And I feel like when we go to L.A., we'll go to the Beverly Hills Hotel and we'll have coffee in the Fountain Blue. That's the date. Oh, it's not just the wallpaper either. It's like the bedspread.

But I also love it for Blanche because, you know, she's just a cat in a sack. She's just a jungle cat in a sack. Totally. Anyway, so we learn at this point, this is where we learn that Blanche has taken on these roommates because she's, in fact, a widower. Yes. And we learn that her husband's name was George. And I kind of love, like, they're talking about, like, what's going to happen. Is she going to say yes? Is she going to say no? Blanche, Blanche, your friend Harry wants an answer tonight. What are you going to tell him?

I haven't decided. I guess I'll know when I hear it come out of my mouth. You'll know when you hear it come out of your mouth. This isn't a belch, Blanche. This is marriage. Will you look at this? She has more colors than Benjamin Moore paints. You mustn't rush into anything, Blanche. You hardly know him. I just wonder what my husband George would think about me and Harry. Well, if he was alive, he probably would not like it.

This one, she's talking about her husband, George, and she's saying, like, I just wonder what George would think. And we get a little bit more character development because, you know, we get this kind of, like, spiritual round robin of, like, of Rose saying, like, George knows how you feel about him. You have a direct line to him just by thinking it. And I

I thought it was really sweet. And it was like, you know, there she is in her, like, 50s house dress. And, oh, now we know she's, like, a little bit spiritual. And she's also very, like, I don't know. She's going to be, like, the soft, sensitive one. Yeah. Yeah, I would agree. Their character development from the pilot is pretty clear. Yes. Even though, as we discussed, it gets a bit more nuanced later. And also, Blanche has only known Harry for a week. You know, she's a very sexy woman. I know. And a slut. I know. So...

I know, but she's talking about it as though like this is going to be her last chance at love as though she's going to be dead in a week. You know, she's 51 and the clock is a ticket. This is it. This is it.

My feet are already in the box. I know. I just hope my student loan's paid off by 51. Oh, Jesus. Well, at this point, we're interrupted by a ring at the doorbell. Yes. And who is it, Patrick? Well, everyone thinks it's going to be Harry, but no, it's Ma. It's Estelle Getty. She's shown up at the house because her retirement home has just burned to the ground. That's right. Ma, what's the matter? Everyone is fine. No one died. The home burnt down. Oh.

My God, are you all right? How'd you get here? I hitched. A cab. I took a cab. Well, you should have called. I'm perfectly capable of managing by myself. I don't need help. I'm a totally independent person. I know. I know. I need $67 for the cab. And I'd like to point out that Dorothy and Rose enter from what is the Lanai area. But this is one of my questions, Patrick, for future episodes. I guess Blanche's

bedroom does also enter onto the lanai, but in future episodes, I swear to God, she goes down the other hallway. Oh, this is the only time. So we don't even know in this version in the pilot, we don't know where the lanai are. How would you even get to the lanai? You know what I mean? Like we see them on the... Right. Because we have institutional memory because we know the show, but in this pilot episode, that's what I was mostly referring to about the technical aspect of it. I was like, well, I know that's outside. Right. Okay.

Picture in the credits where Blanche is wearing that dress and she's strutting, moving her shoulders like this. Like that. I swear it's the other hallway. It is. And this was part of the problem with the pilot because when they were adding the kitchen, that is what threw everything off. Jillian, my co-host on TCO, gave me an architectural rendering of the house for a housewarming gift. She's my heroine. Wow.

Okay. Also. I know, but it's beautiful. It's so nerdy. I love it. It comes with a whole thing explaining how the layout of the house makes no sense. It really doesn't. It doesn't. Because Blanche's bedroom is going to get moved down the other hallway where all the other bedrooms are. The lanai is going to go out where Blanche's bedroom currently is. Right. And it's Miami, so I'm guessing there's not a basement. Right. And stairs. It's one level living. Again, where is Coco sleeping? I know.

I don't know. We're so concerned about poor Coco. We're so concerned about Coco. I'd also, I do want to point this out, that when Sophia comes in, much like Dorothy, we're going to go on a hair journey with these two women. Yeah.

Sophia is sporting this terrible side part, right? And Dorothy, again, her hair gets so much better later on. Her hair gets so much better. We had to do a deep dive on the hair alone. I swear to God. I couldn't agree more. She actually ages in reverse on this. Like, she does.

done. You know what I mean? Her fashion sense. Sorry, Judy Evans. I know. It gets better. It gets better. By season seven of the Golden Girls, she looks younger than she ever did on Maud. Like if you ever watch an episode of Maud, she looks like she's like Dorothy's born ex-grandmother. Yeah.

Yeah. You know? And as far as Sophia goes, I think they were just trying to make her look like a frail old lady here in the pilot because she looks terrible. And starting in episode two, she looks like the Sophia that we come to know. Well, and you know, too, and I'll say this as an actress, professional actress, at this point, too, you have so many cooks in the kitchen because the show is not tried and true and hasn't won all the awards that it's going to win. Yes. So ostensibly, we're to believe that once the show becomes the hit that it becomes, there's a bit more trust involved across the board, right? Yeah.

You know, at this point, I'm sure they were very concerned about, well, we've got to make her look old enough. We'll talk about that later, I think, in our deep dive. But, you know, when you let things breathe a little bit, that's when you get a little bit more magic. I totally agree. No, I just want to say this, too. One of the brilliant things, though, about these two women as Sophia and Dorothy, and I have that in this section, is they instantly are a sight gag.

Just their differences in their height. You know, it's that classic guys and dolls thing. It's just really smart casting. I totally agree. And Sophia, this is when she enters. This is where we discover that her acid tongue is a remnant from her having had a stroke, which is why she can't control the acerbic jibes that come out of her mouth. Sit down, Sophia. You must be exhausted. Why I wrote in the cap, I didn't push it. Oh, Sophia, honey, how nice to see you. Who are you?

It's me, Blanche. You look like a prostitute. Oh, I like it.

Which I did a double take when we got that in the pilot because, and I was even reading a New York Times article about this day, they never come back to this. The reason that Sophia just says all the mean things that come to her mind is because she apparently had a stroke that broke the part of her brain that... The usual word broke. Yes. That like, that does the filter where you're like, I shouldn't say mean things. And they never come back. Going forward, she's just a mean old lady. But like, at least in the pilot, we get an explanation as to why. Right. Which seems...

No offense, but it seems like such a convenient. Totally. So the TV show can happen. Right. So it's like you don't hate her for being mean. You kind of love her for being mean. Exactly. There's a moment where Harry is like where he's introduced to everybody. And Sophia, this is like a

pattern with Sophia. She does not like patronizing compliments about her age. So he makes a crack that like, oh, Sophia, you must be Blanche's sister and you must be blind. And so like they're going back and forth and she and then Blanche and Harry leave. And she says to the room, the man's a scuzzball. And it gets this huge

huge laugh. They had to reshoot that because initially she had called him a douchebag and it got such a big laugh, but it didn't make it past standard. So they had to reshoot it, but it gets a huge laugh. I love that. And I love since we're on that topic, the

the pause that Bea Arthur takes and they do a take to one another, the power of comedy just from a look. Yes. And holding for the laugh with your partner because that creates a second round of laughter. Thanks, ladies. It was a pleasure. Nice meeting you, Harry. Have fun. The man is a scuzzball. Scuzzball! Scuzzball! Scuzzball!

Totally. And the chemistry between Bea Arthur and Estelle Getty is instant. Because we'll learn, you know, like, you know, one of the things we know about Estelle Getty is that she has extreme stage fright. And the week leading up to the pilot, she was like a nervous wreck. And I don't think it was going very well. And they say that, like, they turned the lights on and she just

came alive. So it's kind of amazing to see. Like, you can almost, like, I'm just, like, envisioning the future episodes where, like, Dorothy puts her hand over Ma's mouth, you know, and you feel like probably a lot of that stuff was just ad-libbed and they're so funny together. Or my murder mystery weekend. A throat.

Not part of the show, people. Not part of the show. I digress. So Harry arrives at the house. We see Harry and he and Blanche go off on their date. And so at this point, Rose and Dorothy talk about how they all met, which was by answering an ad in a supermarket. And then Rose starts to give a thematic speech of basically what the entire series ends up being about. She doesn't use the words chosen family, but essentially that's what it is. Chosen family.

It's not fair. I mean, we get married, we have kids. The kids leave and our husbands die. Is that some kind of a test? You don't work that hard. You don't go through everything you go through to be left alone. We are alone, Dorothy. We really are. Our families are gone and we're alone. And there are too many years left and I don't know what to do. Get a poodle.

This really hit me as like, that must be, and she says there's too many years left. Like she's like, Rose is supposed to be in her mid fifties. She's got another 30, 40 years left, whatever. And you're like, yeah, yeah.

Right. And she's been, this is something that confused me because we find out later that she's been a widower for 15 years. I know. I didn't notice that until this watching of it. Yeah. So what? She was 40 when she lost her husband. So like were the kids still living? I mean, I guess she probably had the kids when she was very young or whatever. So maybe the kids had like just moved out, but she's been without her husband for 15 years. Yeah. But it,

This monologue really hit home with me. I thought it was really beautiful. Because Rose, more than any of them, is the most terrified that Blanche is going to say yes. And then they're going to have no word. I'm very worried about money for these ladies. I'm very like, how much money do they have in the bank? What would they actually do? Where would they go? Well, thank God they can afford cocoa. I know.

Thank God. Who's going to make the enchiladas? No, I mean, is it going to be Rose's beach friends in the future? Or who's going to, as we see next, pour them iced tea late at night, which I'm hoping is Long Island iced tea. Thank you. Me too. So now we're out on the Lanai, which as we've established, I think Patrick and I, we both live there in our minds, right? I also cannot say the Lanai. It's hard. I think I just messed it up. Ten.

Ten times fast. The lanai. The lanai. Cheesecakes. Try it. The lanai. The lanai. I can't do it. Come on, cheesecakes. The lanai. The lanai. Nope. The lanai. It's a... Because you really have to put a break in between, right? The lanai. The lanai.

Damn it. The lanai. The lanai. The lanai. Yeah. That was good. But you have to really pause. I don't know. I still didn't do it. The lanai. I can't do it. Cheesecakes, it's up to you. So Dorothy, Rose, and Coco are all, they're all out on the lanai. The lanai. In their bathrobes. Yes. So we know now that Coco does sleep over. I know.

And like, is he always on the clock? I guess so. I want to know that he goes into his room at night and just drinks. You know what I mean? And that iced tea. I'm like, well, you know, there's a lot of caffeine. Is it Spike? I know. It's a Long Island iced tea. I hope it is. Anyway, Rose is convinced that Blanche will say yes. She's still worried. She's pacing. And she gives, ladies and gentlemen, a masterclass in comedy comedy.

in the sense of marrying the spoken word with physical comedy. Cheesecakes, you got to go to our Instagram right now if you want to see Jen act out this moment. I promise you it is the funniest thing you'll see today. Our handle is at Golden Girls Deep Dive. Go watch. It's already up. Go look at it. You're going to die. It's yes. I know what it is. She's going to marry him. Oh, come on, Rose. She can't help it. Blanche needs a man. She told me when George died, she made a date at the funeral.

Well, not that she didn't love George. She can't be without a man. You know what I'm saying? And then Dorothy makes a school shooting joke. She literally says, what am I doing up? I'm subbing for a teacher that was shot by a student. I need all the sleep I can get. Dorothy Savage. Welcome to 1985 in America. The fact that Dorothy makes a school shooting joke. Read the room, Dot. Dot, thank you for that.

So our bathrobed heroes come back into the living room. Heroines. And I'm also obsessed that here we are late at night, as you mentioned before, Patrick, about Rue. But here, especially Betty White, if you look closely, the lip gloss is, it could light the sky. I know.

I don't know about you, but when I get dressed in my pajamas, you know, I always just I'm in full beat. I say I'm always. So Blanche comes home and Rose practically jumps out of her seat. What happened now? Blanche is being a little coy and I don't appreciate because they just want to know if they're going to be homeless next week. And she just wants to talk about the stone crab she had because she can't eat anything with ice.

But she does finally tell us that, yes, she is going to marry Harry next week. And I want to point out Patrick Hines. Yes. To look at their faces. Go back and watch because Coco in this moment is giving full Patrick Hines in every picture that you take. He's just like...

That's his face. I gotta tell you, Coco and I, I think that I see a lot of myself in Coco. I think that Coco, I would have done Coco's job. I would have been on the clock at all times, but I would be drunk after five. You would. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I gotta point out, what happens is she says yes, she's gonna marry him. They all make that Patrick Hines face. They're all shocked. It goes to commercial. It comes back. They're all in the exact same position, but Coco's gone. Did you notice? Coco's gone. And like, it's

a little bit of a mess because, and this is part of my deep dive, well, you'll find out, but like, they reshot the pilot. So like, he's in, they try to cut him out of as much as they possibly could. The poor guy. So Blanche goes off to the bedroom and his exit line, I'd like to point out, is to say they are going to honeymoon in New York where she hopes she doesn't get murdered. Ha ha ha!

You know, New York in the 80s. It was a little rough. Have you seen that 30 Rock where the lady's walking down, I love spring in New York. And then some person throws her into a pile of garbage. So as we've established, both Rose and Blanche are widowers. But here we learn for the first time that Dorothy is a divorcee. Yes. So Dorothy had a shotgun wedding that Rose thought was a blowgun wedding. Dorothy's dad made Stan, her ex-husband, marry her because she was pregnant.

And they were married for 38 years. And we learned that he left her for a stewardess named Chrissy. It was her first flight. They said on arrival, give the passengers a lay. She got confused. He got lucky and they now live on Maui.

So now we jump to the day of the wedding. We're in Blanche's bedroom. Dorothy is in there and Rose rushes in. Blanche's bedroom is the room that keeps on giving because now we learn that there's like a dressing room and a bathroom back in the corner. This is a huge bedroom. I'm sure it's somehow connected to the lanai. Did you hear me struggle? To the lanai. You can't do it. I can't do it. Oh my goodness. But here we have 12 minutes to spare until the wedding and Rose and Dorothy engage in...

Some brilliant physical comedy. This physical comedy dance. Because what's happening is Rose is now saying she doesn't trust Harry. There's something about Harry. She's got a hunch. And Dorothy is saying, like, shut up. Blanche is marrying him. You're just afraid that we're going to be kicked out on the street. Like, I'm not going to let you ruin this. I want to tell her. You are not. I will not let you. I can't stop crying. I'm

so happy and so sad. Kind of a happy sad. Speaking of sad, Lance. Shut up, Rose. She's crying already. What's the difference? Rose, pick that up.

These actresses, Bea and Betty, are so hilarious. We have a thrown atomizer. Oh, my God. We have headlocks. What's not to like? This is where we are introduced to the phrase, shut up, Rose. It's like my favorite thing. But the moment where Dorothy goes, Rose, pick this up, and then throws something across the room. Yeah, one of the atomizers, the perfume. It's so brilliant. And, like, Dorothy is literally flinging Rose around the room to the point where at one point she throws her into the closet and then locks the door.

Also, I love that there's a latch to the closet. There's no kids there. No. And I love that, like, Rose just accepts it. She gets thrown into the closet and she's not banging or pounding on the door to get out. Until the end. And Coco inexplicably straightens the palm leaf bedspread that has nary a crease in it. That's just an occupier's business so that Rose can bang on the door. Yes. That's what I was like, oh, Coco.

Poor Coco. It didn't have quite hospital corners, but there was nothing to fix. It was busy work, right? 100%. You just snorted. I know. You're making me laugh. All right. Oh, it's so funny.

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This is the first spot, too, Patrick, where I wanted to give out a shout out to that customer, Judy Evans. Yes. Because all those ladies in that scene, they're in different pastels of pink, yellow and blue. Yep. They look like an Easter basket. I was going to say it looks like an Easter wedding for sure. It did. And hilariously enough, I will say that Blanche is not only carrying, you know, a bouquet. Yeah. But few points docked for the fact that she's also wearing a wrist corsage as we discover as she comes because they're about to go into the living room. So she's both in my head. She's the bride and the mother of the bride. Yeah.

All in one? I don't know. I don't know if that's props. I don't know who's in charge of that. Well, also, like, we're going to meet so many members of her family, like gay brother Clayton down the road. Like, why is nobody here for her wedding? Her sister Virginia? Big Daddy? Well, it was really fast. They're like, right? Like, no. No. So we cut to the living room. The four women, Coco, and the minister are all there. The minister is real impatient. It's Miami, ladies. He's got funerals backed up. Did you notice he carries a pocket watch, too? Yeah.

Very dapper minister in Miami. I know. But he's on a tight schedule. And like, you know, we learned that Harry is 30 minutes late and Blanche is a nervous wreck. And the doorbell rings and Blanche runs over and it's an officer played by Meshack Taylor. Is there a Blanche Hollingsworth here? God, he's been killed. Arrested. He gave me this to give to you. He's a bigamist, ma'am. He's wanted in four states. He's got six wives.

I know. And that show, Designing Women, would premiere the following year. Yeah. I was reading an article today that was saying that it was a lot of those shows were like Designing Women and others were kind of like based on the success of this. Yeah. You know, that you could do a show that was based on like just female driven characters. And middle-aged female women, too. It's really thrilling. It's exciting. So it's Meshack Taylor. I screamed because I love Designing Women, but I also loved Mannequin, which...

Which he would be in like a year later with Estelle Getty. It's incredible. And I'm like, when you guys were shooting Mannequin, did you like chat about like the time that you were on the pilot episode of the Golden Girls? Oh my God. No, I gotta say, Rue McClanahan does some acting. She does her face acting in this scene because she thinks that the police officer is here to say that Harry is dead.

But he says, no, he's a bigamist. Which I was like, are we allowed to say that word? Yeah. He's a bigamist. He's wanted in four states. He has six wives. Yeah. So Rose was right. Rose was right to be suspicious. And she had said to us in that scene, my hunches are never wrong. And she's vindicated here again. Well, she's the most childlike. Like, if anyone can speak to spirits, you know it's Rose, right? 100%. She's just so, she's such a childlike soul. Yeah. Yeah.

And he wrote, you know, Harry wrote her a letter and Dorothy reads it. It says, Dear Blanche, I guess you know by now. I'm really sorry. The thing is, I really liked you. This time was different. You're a special lady. Maybe you'll write to me someday, Harry. And Blanche, she's really giving the performance. She's really like, she's really acting in this moment. Yeah, they're not just funny ladies. They can get you in the feels. Blanche feels like a fool, but not just a fool. An old fool. An old fool. Hi!

Oh, poor Blanche. So then we go out to the Lanai. It's three weeks later. Sophia is sprawled out on a chaise looking like an aged Hollywood starlet. And she's got sunglasses on and Dorothy comes out and holds a mirror under her nose just to make sure she's still alive. Mm-hmm.

Which is in my favorite episode, Murder Mystery Weekend, right? Oh, did she do it again? I don't know if it's to Sophia, but there's a mirror under a nose, I remember. I remember that now too, that you mention it. But Blanche hasn't come out of her room in three weeks, and they're saying they've tried everything, golf, movies, theater tickets. She wouldn't even budge for Julio Iglesias' cheesecakes.

But we then talk about grief a little bit because, you know, Rose brings up how grieving a relationship is similar to grieving the death of a loved one. And Dorothy then goes on a diatribe about the different ways different cultures conduct their funerals, to which Sophia says, just put me in a steel sack and leave me on the curb next to the cans. Yeah.

Which brings up a question for me, Patrick. How do you want to go? What do you want? Oh, I definitely want to be cremated and probably sprinkled in the theater district and then a little bit in the West Village in front of what was the Oscar Wilde bookstore opened in 1968, the world's first gay and lesbian bookstore. Could you be more specific? So you've thought about this? I didn't realize how... Right off the top of my head. Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.

Yeah, I definitely want to be sprinkled in the theater district. Is that morbid? No, I think it's appropriate. I haven't gone so far as to what to do with my ashes. I do also want to be cremated. But most of all, I've thought about my memorial service. What's going to happen? Who's singing? Who's singing? Here's what's going to happen. Norbert Leo Butz. I haven't thought about the singing, but I have two people lined up. I definitely have the photograph chosen. It was taken on the Playbill cruise, appropriately enough, where there's a sunset behind me. And it just, it already, it looks like I died. Basically.

So I have my photos set up. But then I definitely want Tina Fey to do some sort of roast. You guys, she knows Tina Fey. Cheesecakes, she knows Tina Fey. We're buddies. I want her to do something really, really funny. Yes. And then I want David Hyde Pierce to come in and make people cry. Yeah.

You know? Oh, my God. We got to get each of them on an episode of the podcast. Bernadette Peters will sing something. Will you give us a little Bernadette? Like, not a day goes by. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Will you give us a little Bernadette right now? I know you guys are friends, too, and you can't make fun of her. No, but... Not a day goes by. You know, that's me gentle. It's not really an impression. No. Yeah.

Because I love her. I know you do. I do. She's class act. Oh, God. But anyway. Dorothy says, after lambasting the Irish, the Jewish, and the Italians, she says, it's the Southern Protestants who make grieving a way of life. Oh,

Oh, and then as soon as Sophia says that, Dorothy goes, we thought you were asleep. And Sophia goes, you never know. Which brings in our episode heroine, Blanche. She emerges. She emerges. And she just says, you know, she's really okay by now. She says she just wanted to give up and die. But it was her friendship with the girls, with Rose and with Dorothy and with Ma that really saved her. Yeah.

Then this morning I woke up and I was in the shower shampooing my hair and I heard humming. Well, I thought there was someone in there with me. No, it was me. I was humming. And humming means I'm feeling good. And then I realized I was feeling good because of you. You made the difference. You're my family and you make me happy to be alive.

Well, she found herself humming in the shower and she's like, wait a minute, that's me. And that's a sign that she's happy. Yes. So Rose says she's going to take them all out to celebrate at Coconut Grove. Coconut Grove for lunch. Yeah, she's going to buy them lunch. And Patrick, I think we should do something similar, but here in the theater district. Like, let's go to Junior's and have some cheesecake. Yes, I love that. That sounds like a really good idea.

You're buying. I'm buying. But wait, I gotta say, this ends in a funny way because Sophia's not gonna go with them to Coconut Grove because her and the fancy man have a date to go dog track racing later.

So, like, a couple of things. Number one, apparently the setup was supposed to be that Sophia and Coco the gay chef were going to become besties. But also, do you remember we learn many, many, many seasons from now that Dorothy had a gambling addiction? Yes. I think it's kind of insensitive that her own mother is rubbing gambling in her face right here at the end of the pile. Wow. Where's the continuity person? I know.

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All right, girl, are you ready for our first ever deep dive? Yes, let's do it. G-G-G-G. Yes! G-G-G-G-G. Golden Girls Deep Dive, baby. All right, Cheesecakes, for this first episode, I'm doing a deep dive all about the actor Charles Levin, the actor who played Coco, the gay chef in the pilot.

Because, like, his journey getting the job is really interesting. And then he died kind of mysteriously decades later. So Charles Levin was born March 12th, 1949. He had a really solid career of guest star work, like, starting in 1975. Coco was not the first time he played gay.

And we'll get to more of that in a second. But from its conception, we learned or I've learned that the creators of the show wanted there to be a gay character because they said that Miami was like a cool, hip place. There were lots of gays in Miami and having a gay in the mix felt organic to them.

But the show was also meant to just be subversive, like we were talking about a little bit in the regular recording. Because just in the act of focusing on women in a way that hadn't been done before, and they said that, like, quote, after society had written them off based on their age, you know, they specifically were being subversive just in the act of focusing on women at, like, this stage in their life. And they were like, let's really piss people off, throw a gay into the mix, and, like, you know, it made it feel organic. But one of the other things I thought was so interesting was,

Was that this really was a first of like a show, you know, being so female oriented without any like male leads. And they thought that throwing in a gay male character was a way of having a little bit of male energy without also having any sort of like sexual tension in the house, which they didn't want.

Right. And I think they soon realized the magic that the women had just alone. Right. That's essentially where we get to. So, you know, we talked about this in the episode a little bit, too. The idea of the women having a cook in the show was that like after years of like long, hard days of work taking care of their husbands and kids, that they would have hired somebody to do like the housework and the cooking and the cleaning. We learned, too, later that Blanche did come from a bit of

money. So Susan Harris, who created the Golden Girls, had written a fabulous gay character before this one on another show she created called Soap. And we're going to do, girl, I insist, we're doing a whole deep dive at some point on Soap. But famously, the great Billy Crystal played the gay character on Soap, and that character's name was Jodie Dallas. I loved Soap. Did you? Yeah. We have to

we're going to have to cover it. I can't wait. Okay, good. Billy Crystal played a character named Jody Dallas, and he was the first gay series regular character. I did a ton of research trying to figure out who the actual first gay character on American TV was. And it's a little bit sort of up in the air, because I think there's some thought that there are some that we thought were gay, but didn't necessarily ever come out. The one that is sort of, and like, correct me if I'm wrong, Cheesecakes, I very well, maybe one of you knows for sure. But the

first credited gay TV character ever to appear on American TV was All in the Family. There was a character that appears on season one, episode five. His name was Steve and he was played by Philip Carey and he was like an old friend of Archie Bunker's. Oh, amazing. Who like Archie doesn't know is gay. Right, because it's also he's notorious for being, you know, very bigoted. And Bea Arthur was also on that show, wasn't she? Yeah, she was a neighbor or something. I think that's how Maude came to be. Correct. Maude was the spinoff of All in the Family. Right.

So as far as casting Coco, an early contender for the role was Jeffrey Jones. Do you know who that is? No. He was in Howard the Duck. He was on The Principal and Ferris Bueller's Day Off. Oh. Oh, he was in Beetlejuice. Sure, sure. But he took himself out of the running by going into the audition and saying that he didn't think the character was necessary. Well, he won that fight, didn't he? I know. That's right.

You're right. Sweet vindication for Jeffrey Jones. Don't you admire the honesty, too? Can you imagine? Would you ever do that? No. No. I don't think we need this character that I'm auditioning for. I don't think we need this character. No.

Oh, God. But it was apparently the president of NBC himself who suggested Charles Levin because he liked the gay character that Levin played on Hill Street Blues. The character's name was Eddie Gregg. And he was apparently like a male bathroom hustler.

And I guess this guy liked the character so much that he wanted to get that character its own spinoff. I have searched high and low on the internet for footage of this character. You can find Hill Street Blues like on YouTube, but I have not been able to find... This would be a great assignment for the cheesecake. Cheesecakes. Find us a video of Eddie Gregg from Hill Street Blues. I got to see what it's like. But he was very like swishy and flamboyant, very like over-the-top caricature of like what a gay man, what people thought a gay man was. But apparently...

he had like this character had not a sexual relationship, but like an informant cop relationship with one of the cops that was like a relationship that people really liked. And so they loved him on that show. They bring him in to read. And, you know, Charles Levin says in reading Coco in the original draft, he found him to be very much like that character over the top, even like a little bit lispy and just kind of funny, like very like birdcage energy. But when he met with the director of the pilot,

And apparently the director told him, I don't want you to do it like that. I want you to do it straightforward. You're just a guy that happens to be gay. So this is confusing for him. Levin gets brought in for his big audition in front of all the NBC brass. And he does it the way the director told him to do it and totally bombs.

And he didn't feel comfortable doing it. That wasn't how he wanted to do the character, but he just sort of felt like he... What would you do in a situation like that? Well, that's a hard one. As I was saying in the actual episode we just did, it's really hard when there are a lot of cooks in the kitchen. Yeah, especially when they're all named Coco. But everyone has a different opinion. So...

At the end of the day, you do have to take the note. And the best advice I would give anyone is take the note, but find a way to still make it your own. Which it seems like he didn't. It seems like he kind of just went in and did it. Because if you're in between, it's not going to be committed and it's not going to work. And it didn't. It totally fell flat. He thought he blew it. And a few days later, the VP of casting called me and was like, we don't know what the hell that was that you just did. Could you just come back in and like do it the right way?

So he goes back in and just does it the way that he saw the character, big and flamboyant and over the top. And he totally books that. So the Golden Girls pilot episode is filmed April 17th, 1985. And it's kind of legendary, apparently, that like this pilot recording was sensational. They say the audience is like buzzing and the actors were buzzing. And it was like one of the best filmed episodes.

pilots I've read ever happened. So this is where we have to talk about Estelle Getty for a second, because Estelle Getty was the newcomer. She was really nervous during rehearsals, like we talked about in the regular episode. She had a lot of stage fright. She wasn't really connecting. But like we were saying, when the lights came on, she just like came alive. And you can see this in the episode. Like we were saying, her comedy is epic.

And they even describe her later as like the breakout star of the pilot. And like she's like up against these like TV icons and like she's kind of the breakout star. Now, the audience goes crazy for her. And remember, she was supposed to only be in every couple of episodes. She was what is it recurring and not series regular or guest star. Yeah. Yeah.

But the audience also goes nuts for Coco. It's not like she was great and he didn't land. According to Levin, and Charles Levin has given precious few interviews over the years. It's almost impossible to find any. He did this one really long interview over the course of several days with a blogger. And he only talks a little bit about the Golden Girls. But...

According to him, everything worked. All of his jokes hit. Everything was really funny. You know, at the end of the filming of the pilot, the creators kind of got together and they were like, well, shit, now what do we do? Because they're like, we have like five really strong characters. And they said...

say Susan Harris is like, we just it wouldn't have done justice to anybody to try to like, like use all of their talents only a little bit at a time. Also, the pilot was five minutes too long. Yeah, because most most sitcoms, what is it about 22 minutes of material? Yeah. And it was five minutes over. And they said like, it made the most sense to bump Estelle Getty up to series regular and sort of cut all of Coco stuff. And like, remember, like it was groundbreaking in the way that it focused

like just on four women. And the network had been nervous about that. But after filming the pilot, they realized it really worked. And they're like, all right, let's just get rid of the man and we'll keep it focused on the women. And so the question is like, is that story really true? Or was it like homophobia involved? And the Golden Girls creators insist that it's not, that they also wanted the women to be more relatable. So they thought of them being able to afford a cook

made them a little bit more upper class. They wanted the women to have money troubles so that the audience would kind of care about them and kind of worry about them. So those were all other reasons they said it made more sense to cut Coco. Do you know, Patrick, if part of it was because they knew who their demographic audience was and it was older women?

No, I have not read that. And the material that I've read, that's not given as one of the reasons. I think they wanted to take a chance on doing something that was all women-centric, but were nervous to do it. But when they saw how hard it hit and how good it was, they were kind of like, okay, this kind of works.

So Coco is almost completely gone from the pilot. Like, it's funny. Before we went back to do this, I remember thinking, oh, right. Like in the pilot, there's like the gay chef. When you watch the pilot, he's barely there. There's no character development. He doesn't have any funny lines. He's just kind of there in the background. And it turns out they reshot many scenes of the pilot to try to cut him out of as much as they could. And they gave a lot of his really funny lines to Sophia. Yeah.

And so what's remaining is this like very flat sort of non-existent. He's like in a scene one moment, then you come back from the commercial and he's not there anymore. Well, that would explain why we were so confused. Yes. Also, the more you talk, the more I feel really bad for the actor because it's so...

I feel like I really know him already. I feel so badly because he didn't do anything wrong. He didn't do anything wrong. And he very much in that 2013 blog interview really disputes the idea that it was creative at all. He says it was all linked to homophobia. He doesn't really get into it, but he says that the director of the pilot was homophobic. He says that the

casting people at NBC were homophobic and they were kind of looking for any way to cut this character. The blog is The Incredible Kulk. If you Google Joey Culkin, The Incredible Kulk,

You know, link you right to the 2013 interview. And it's this wild interview because Joey Culkin is like interviewing him via email over many days. And like Charles Levin is kind of like, like what's the word? He's a little bit aggressive. And he's kind of like schooling the guy on how to ask him questions. And like he's easily offended by,

So he seems like kind of an interesting character, but he says, like, the character Coco that you see is nothing like what he shot. And he's defensive of his work, saying that it was really funny, it was really good, the character was really interesting, but what you see in the pilot is just like he's been kneecapped. Oh, that happens so much, where...

lines that you have are cut. And so the characterization that you're playing doesn't make sense. Uh-huh. Which is frustrating. And it kind of happens in the pilot, too, where you're kind of like, it's almost like he's doing a different show. A hundred percent. I couldn't agree more. And do you know if the actor is gay? He's not. He's not. Which is interesting. I just...

find it germane in the sense that it's interesting that as a straight man, he found them to be homophobic. Yeah. And he... But you could go on and on about this. Well, then, you know, playing the character as a stereotype is, you know, as a straight man. Yeah. Because, like, even today, like, you wouldn't cast...

straight man in that role. No, that's right. But back then, people just weren't out. You really couldn't be out and be like Billy Crystal. Think about like if he were actually gay. Yeah. Like if you were out, it would be the death knell of your career in like the late 70s, early 80s. And it was five minutes ago. Yeah, I know. I know. Like I was even thinking about like my favorite show of like modern times is Modern Family. And Eric Stonestreet, who plays Uncle Cameron, is...

brilliant, brilliant, brilliant in the role, but he's straight in real life. And you would never cast a straight man in that role now. Right, right, right, right. So after The Golden Girls, you know, he continues to work. His most notable role after The Golden Girls is he plays the moil on the Seinfeld episode, the bris. Oh, God.

Which is one of those things where either you... I've mentioned this to some people and they know exactly who he is. And if you don't, then you don't. But I watched the episode and he is... He's like a much bigger man. It's 1993, so it's almost 10 years later. He's larger, his hair is gray, and his character is very aggressive. Loud and obnoxious. Whereas Coco was very like...

and like sweet and cuddly. And I think the role in Seinfeld is more what he was like in real life, maybe a little bit difficult, a little bit kind of a diva, but it's very funny and people do love this episode. Oh, well, if it isn't shaky the moil. Nice job on the circumcision, but it's not supposed to be a finger. The circumcision was perfect. The finger was your fault. You flint. Oh, who made you a moil? Where'd you get your degree from a matchbook?

You see, he flinched again. Nice boil picking, Elaine. You picked a hell of a boil. One more peep out of you and I'm going to slice you up like a smoked sturgeon. Oh, don't threaten me, butcher boy. Butcher boy! Do you think, this is rapid speculation, could who he was as a person been one of the reasons they didn't invite him back?

Could be. Could be. Because I was feeling, I'm feeling bad for the actor, but I didn't know if he was difficult. I had no idea. Yeah. His own son describes him. We'll get to it here because we learned that like as his acting career is kind of winding down in the early to mid 2000s, he moves to a small farming town in Oregon called Grant's Pass. And they describe him as a gregarious figure in town. His son, Jesse, describes him as a difficult guy around town, a big diva, but also incredibly comedic.

And he had a huge personality and was incredibly charming. So those are all adjectives given to us by his son. Now, Had, is he deceased or is he with us? Oh, he's dead. He's dead. He dead, Jennifer. He dead.

Your delivery. That's what I was laughing at. Not the fact that he's dead, to be clear. No, his death is kind of a crazy story. I'm getting ahead of the ball. It's okay. It's okay. In June 2019, the then 70-year-old was in the process of moving from one area of Grants Pass to another.

On June 28th, 2019, he's last seen by his friend Julie Hatt. It was like his best friend in town. They had met at, she worked at the local grocery store. They'd become close friends and she was helping him move. This is literally like him just like packing his car and she's helping him pack his car. They're at his current residence and he's driving to his new residence. It's June 28th and she sees him and she waves goodbye.

We later find out that later that day, he made a phone call from his cell phone to a family friend. And on the call, he was breaking up and he's described as sounding like confused and lost. Lost.

And so this all happened on June 28th, 2019. He isn't seen again. And it's not until July 8th that his son, his 34-year-old son, Jesse, reports him missing. So it seems to me like he had become kind of a loner. Like you could go that many days between June 28th and July 8th with nobody seeing you and that's not raising alarms for anybody. So he's reported missing on July 8th. Instantly, a search party is organized.

The search lasts for over a week. And this is in a really rural area of Oregon. It's like out in the wilderness, essentially. They say on Friday, July 12th, they're able to use GPS from that last call, the one where he sounded sort of confused and lost, to narrow their search. And the next day, July 13th, his car is found in what is described as Elmwood.

a quote, incredibly remote area of Grant's past. Now, the Daily Mail published pictures of where his car was found, and it looks like they, like somebody dropped his car, it's this little orange Fiat, into like the middle of the woods.

And in the car, they find the decomposing remains of his pug, Boo Boo Bear. How cute is that name? But he's not there. No Charles Levin. So nobody knows where he is. And it's the middle of the night when they find the car. The search commences for him. They're combing this like thick overgrowth. And within a few hours, they find Levin's naked, badly decomposed body at the bottom of a treacherously steep ravine.

it was 30 feet down. And, you know, what they believe, they rule out foul play or suicide. Essentially what they think has happened is that he was driving, he packed his car with his friend and he's driving to his new house or apartment or whatever. They think that he was taking a back road because this is a back road that like, even like local hunters say, we don't even try to take this road. It's,

so overgrown and there's like fallen tree fields. So there's like entire areas in the middle of this overgrowth that are so, that are like just full of like dead trees. And somehow his little car was able to get so much further into it, even further than the emergency response vehicles that are called for him. They were not able to get within a quarter of a mile of where he was found. And his car was like right there. Right. But a Fiat's not...

also not an off-road vehicle. No, but you would think that these four-wheel vehicles would be able to... And when you see these pictures, it really looks like the trees grew up around his car. It's wild. Okay. Could they detect if there was...

car trouble? No, it seemed that the car stalled out and that there was like, he had been trying to like pull out and pull around. They think what happened was that he got stuck and got out of his car and then fell into the ravine. It doesn't explain why he was naked. Right. His son, Jesse, said that he was suffering from, quote, confusion and severe emotional problems at the time of his death. So they've ruled out suicide. They don't think it's that, but they, but like... There wasn't a Godfrey.

Forgive me, but there wasn't like a hose and duct tape or anything like that. No, no, no. Nothing like that. It just seemed like he was having maybe a manic episode of some kind and he was in the middle of the woods. Got disoriented. He was 70 years old and opened this car door to kind of look around and fell into this ravine. Again, we don't know why he was naked. But I mean, when did this become an episode of True Crime Obsessed? I know. I know.

I know. Jillian, step in. It's wild. It's amazing. It's awful. It's a terrible... And the dog. I know. Poor boo-boo bear. I know. I know.

All I can picture is Yogi and Boo Boo every time you say that. I know. Maybe that's what he was named after. Oh, God. Well, that's my deep dive on the life and death of Charles, actor Charles Levin, Coco the Gay Chef. Right, everyone. No one can bring a party down better than Patrick Hine. That's usually my secret power. You know that about me. Yeah, I love that about you. Girl, we got all the way through our very first episode of the GGDD. We did a good good. Did you have a good time? I had a great time.

Great time. I hope you had a great time and I hope the cheesecakes had a good time. I just, this is everything. No, a great time. Why do we have a great time and they have a good time? They're slightly disappointed. No, cheesecakes, this is everything I wanted it to be. I'm so happy. But the other thing I want you to do, Cheesecase, come please join our Facebook group. It's the Golden Girls Deep Dive Podcast Discussion Group. That's it. It's on the Facebook.com.

something you could do that would really help us out, Cheesecake, go to Apple Podcasts and write a review. All you gotta do is click the four or five, whatever stars you think we deserve, and write at least one sentence about what you like about the show. That would be great. And also, don't forget to follow us on Instagram and TikTok at Golden Girls Deep Dive. And thank you in advance for saying I'm pretty in your review. Thank you.

How did you read my review before it even got published? Jennifer Samard, I love you so much. I love you too, my friend. Thank you for making a podcast with me. Thank you for making one with me, you good person. We'll see you next week. Bye. All right, bye.