The Custody Battle (Season 1, Episode 12)
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Jennifer Simard. Hi, Patrick. Hi. Hi, Cheesecakeys. Cheesecakeys? Hi, Cheesecakeys. Are those like the little mini cheesecakes? Totally. The cheesecake-lets. Oh, maybe that's for the children. For the babies. Cheesecakes, breaking news. We wanted to let you in. We're doing something really, really, really exciting. Tell the cheesecake. Oh, on the 11th of September.

Yes. That's a Wednesday evening. 7 p.m. Eastern. We're going to have a little happy hour. Yeah, we're going to do a virtual happy hour. We've now got 3,000 people in the Facebook group. We want to meet y'all. I'm just laughing. We're going to roll out the bar cart in the forefront of whatever room we're in. I'm going to walk over to you and manhandle you and say, Jennifer, you're a beautiful woman. And you're going to say. I know.

And we're going to make a slow gin fizz. Yes. We actually should make slow gin fizzes. We should. That's a really good idea. You know how to make them, don't you? I do. I know how to make a slow gin fizz. All right, done. Let's have a slow gin fizz. Okay. So 7 p.m. September 11th. Here's how it's going to work. It's going to be a Zoom happy hour. We're going to drop the Zoom link in the Facebook group at like five minutes to seven. If you haven't joined the Facebook group, just go join and then it'll be open to everybody. We'll pin the Zoom link so anybody can just click on it. And then that's how we're going to do it. I love it. And I love that it's sort of a last minute link because it makes me feel like we're spies. That's right.

And this is a very important drop. Yes. All right. Cheesecakes, one quick thing before we get to the episode. So girl, remember our friend Stan Zimmerman? How could I forget? We love him. We love Stan. He and his writing partner, James Berg, were staff writers on season one of The Golden Girls. They wrote Plants and the Younger Man and a bunch of the other ones. Their play, Silver Foxes, which is like a male Golden Girls, is being done at the Evolution Theatre Company in

Dublin, Ohio from September 5th to the 14th. So you can go and see the play. Oh, please do. We should take a road trip. Damn it. Why do I have to be starring in a Broadway show? If you're not starring in Death Becomes Her, I want you to go see this play. Then you have no excuse. So once again, Silver Fox's Evolution Theatre Company, September 5th to the 14th. You can get tickets at evolutiontheatre.org. Stan says this is

the suburb of Columbus. So if you're anywhere near the Columbus, Ohio area, go see Silver Foxes. So girl, I'm doing the deep dive today. Can I tell you what I'm doing? I'm excited about it. Oh, can't wait. What? All right. So my deep dive is all about the character Phil Petrillo, right? So this is the episode where Gloria visits. And so like Phil, the brother is mentioned. And I just did my own little deep dive of like, we never see Phil. We know Phil is like quote a cross dresser or whatever Phil's identity is. I gave it like a goog and I found like there's all of this stuff online.

online about Phil. So there's a full biography of Phil online. And then there's like smart people like in the last couple of years have written like articles and like thought pieces about Phil. And they sort of pieced it together, even though you never see this character live. So I went and did like a full research with our researcher Jess on Phil. That's going to be the full deep dive today. More on that as we get into it later. Amazing. You want to tell us what we're doing today, girl? We're doing episode 12, The

custody battle. Yes. It aired December 7th, 1985, written by our girl Winifred Hervey. Yes, Winnie. And directed by Terry Hughes. So there were major cultural events happening that week in the world of arts and entertainment. In December as a whole, cheesecakes. In upcoming episodes, there's a lot of like cultural stuff that happened.

And for example, on December 2nd, a musical that is near and dear to both yours and my husband's heart, The Mystery of Edwin Drood, opened on Broadway. That's right. And also on December 4th, Les Miserables opened at the Palace Theatre London. And did you do a deep dive for Les Mis? I did a little, just a mini, mini, mini deep dive on Les Mis. So like you said, it opened on December 4th. Now, Les Mis is one of the most successful musicals of all time. But when it opened this week in London, did you know this? The reviews were terrible.

The reviewers hated it. They thought it was trash. They were calling it like synth trash. They thought it was really, really bad. Criticated it, but audiences fell in love with it. After opening night, tickets were flying off the shelves, as they say. And I also learned that before Les Mis was turned into a musical, producers had actually approached the opera composer Puccini to turn it into an opera. But he said no, because he didn't feel that it was suitable for a stage show. Wow. How about that? And it was so...

so huge when it came to America. But it's still huge in London. The show is still running in the West End. It's been over 35 years, over 35,000 performances. The Broadway production ran for 6,680 performances from 1987 to 2003. Wow. The critics hating a show isn't necessarily a death knell. I was going to say death knell. I love that you said death

I've got one more piece of cultural relevance from this week. Okay, cool. December 9th, Phoenix got three inches of snowfall. This is only one of eight times that snowfall has officially been recorded in Phoenix since 1889. Oh my gosh, this is like that Christmas special. Was it Santa Claus is coming to town with like, I'm Mr. Heatmiser. I'm Mr. Sun. What is that? Oh, you have not seen it? No. Cheesecakes. I'm sure some of you know, like, I'm Mr.

a cold miser. Yeah, like, but they have this thing where they want to, like, make it snow where it's hot and, you know, that kind of thing. Wow. That's what this reminds me of. I love that. Cheesecakes, are you appalled that he doesn't know that? Oh my gosh, this is, you'd love it. And I'm a Christmas queen. I see everything Christmas. Oh, it's done, boo. Really? Oh, yeah. All right, send him away. All right, well, let's get started.

We open, we're in the kitchen. Dorothy is washing glasses by hand. Sophia is, and I have drying in air quotes. Oh yeah, she's standing by, but she inspects each glass and hands them back to Dorothy to keep rinsing. And by the third time, Dorothy says, Ma, will you knock it off? Ma!

What? We've been washing glasses for ten minutes. We've finished three. So what's the rush? It's not like you have a date tonight. Ma. It's not like you have a date any night or any day. Look, Ma, when I find somebody worth going out with, I'll go out with them. Now, will you please stop nagging me? Nagging is...

Is that what it's called when a mother wants a little happiness for her daughter? Ma, I'd like to finish these glasses before Gloria gets here. Your sister's not coming till tomorrow. I know. The thing that's going on here is that, like, they're establishing tension between Dorothy and Sophia right from the beginning. I know. And you see it. And we quickly find out that Sophia is grilling Dorothy about not having a date or any dates. And it sort of builds that tension. And I'm wondering if that's the underlying current here. Yeah, it's...

It's like starting there because Sophia, like you said, she's immediately going in on Dorothy. Like, why do you care how long it takes us to wash the dishes? It's not like you don't have any hot dates tonight. Now, I wrote here, I got to say, we're on episode 12. I don't think Dorothy's track record is that bad. Remember she dated that doctor for a couple weeks? Dr. Elliot Clayton. Yeah, he turned out to be a real jerk. But that wasn't her fault. They dated for a couple of weeks. Literally just last week, if we're living in the world of the show, she had a fling with her ex.

You're right. You know what I mean? I actually thought that when I was watching too. It's like, why is she's... And then I wondered if it was just like the thing to make the entertainment happen. You know what I mean? To create the conflict. Right. That's the thing. But like in reality, if this were like a real situation, like Dorothy dates all the time. She's getting some. Dorothy can get it. You know, and backing up a little bit, if you had a choice between washing or drying. Washing. Me too. Washing. No question. As a kid, I

thought it was drying and then you realize your parents have you dry for a reason because they figured out that washing is actually better. Drying, how many times do you have to switch those GD goddamn towels because this one's too wet, this one's too wet, this one, we need some of those coral napkins from last week's episode. I actually don't like dishwashers. I used to really like washing dishes by hand. Me too. I was going to

say because I love that she's actually washing the dishes. There doesn't appear to be a dishwasher. And where I grew up in my country house with my family, you know, there was a window that looked out at the forest. And to this day, I find it very soothing. My very first job was as a dishwasher. I was like, I'm really good at washing. It's like the only household chore I'm good at. Just as my husband. Stick with the poor kids. I know. We got our values straight, right? We'll get it done. We'll clean your house.

So Dorothy tells her mother when she finds somebody worth going out with, she'll go out with them. Now stop nagging her. You know, I think what's really going on here, and we'll find this out at the end, they just want a little space from each other. Like Sophia just kind of wants the house to herself for the night. I'm glad you brought that up. You know? Because I had a question mark about that at the end. Yeah. That's really funny. But I was also thinking like maybe Sophia's a little embarrassed that her daughter can't get a date, but she can get dates. Yeah, I don't really love the road that Sophia takes to get

there. I have to say we'll get there. But at this point, Cheesecakes, we find out that Dorothy's sister slash Sophia's daughter, Gloria, is coming for a visit. And so Blanche blows into the kitchen. Blanche looks

absolutely stunning. I said, she looks fetching. She's wearing this like purple, brown, navy blue dress. It fits her perfectly. Is that who you saw it? I don't know. I wonder if I'm going colorblind. I have a black dress with purplish flowers. I don't know. I see everything else slightly gayer than everybody else. She's hot and she's powdering her nose. Yes, but she asked Dorothy if she could borrow Dorothy's diamond ring, pearl necklace, and jade bracelet. To which I say, why is Dorothy the only person in this house with any jewelry and everybody always wants to borrow it? And a mink stole. And a mink stole.

Maybe they were mobbed up back in Brooklyn. You know what I mean? Absolutely. I mean, she's a substitute teacher. Right. Well, we also know that Blanche like hides her jewelry in the freezer. Blanche, let's go to the freezer. See what's in there, girl. See what's in there, girl. But Dorothy has a great joke. Thank you, Winnie. Are you planning to come back? Blanche says sometime tomorrow morning. And I have to say this, Patrick. I love how sweetly Dorothy asked this next line.

Where are you going? Oh, out to dinner with Jason, the director of our community theater. He's considering me for the role of Lady Macbeth in Mr. William Shakespeare's masterpiece, Macbeth. I feel sure after our date, he'll make a decision in my favor. Oh, come on. Now, Blanche, you're not just using this guy to get a part in a play. Of

Of course not, Dorothy. I'm going to let him use me to get a part in the play. I just saw 19-year-old Dorothy. Yeah. It's just so like, she's going to stay home, read a book. You know, and I was definitely that girl. Really? I was the girl in high school who stayed home on Friday and Saturday nights. Oh, wow.

That's who I was. I mean, I was tied for valedictorian of my class through sophomore year. No way. Yeah. And then I was still in the top 10, I think, by the time I graduated. But I was doing theater after that. Yeah. And I had different priorities. Girl, you landed on your feet. Have those two Tony nominations. You know what I mean? You were doing all the right things. Did you find that sweet where she's like, where are you going? It's so sweet. I wonder if you and I would have been good friends in high school.

Oh, yeah. We would have been. Because we would have been drama club together. Jinx you and me a coke. Totally. Because I was that kid who I wasn't like popular or anything, but I did have friends and I would always be like desperate to make plans for weekend nights. Like I would call everybody I knew to find somebody who would be like willing.

Yeah. Yeah, no, I was bookish. And then when I, well, this is not good, but when I was 17, then I started dating older men. Is that right? Yeah, people I met in theater who were, you know, basically not doing what they should be doing. My God, 17. Oh, the world is such a terrifying place. I know, I know. But we learned Blanche is going out with Jason. He's the director of the community theater. So Cheesecakes, if you remember what Stan Zimmerman said about him discovering that Blanche...

Rue McClanahan is most funny when she has R's. And I thought of that in this moment. You know, when she says, out to dinner with Jason, director of our community theater. Like that, you know, the way she says theater. That's so good. If you start tracking it, you'll absolutely see it. Oh, that's so funny. She says he's considering her for the role of Lady Macbeth. I love the way she says this. In Mr. William Shakespeare's masterpiece, Macbeth.

Why did she talk like that? Well, it's also so funny because it's somehow like Southern Gothic modern, even though he's been dead for centuries. And the idea of calling William Shakespeare Mr. William Shakespeare. Right. But she's like, Mr. Burt Reynolds. That makes sense. That makes sense. But Mr. William Shakespeare.

It really is so strange. And he wasn't Sir William Shakespeare. Did they knight people back then in the 1500s? I don't know. Anyway, he deserved it, don't you think? Do you know why one time went down a rabbit hole of learning if he had living descendants? He doesn't, but his sister does. There are Shakespeare's alive and like living in the countryside of England today. Direct descendants of his sister. Okay.

See, now I'm exhausted because this is the problem, Cheesecakes. Patrick and I can't do every deep dive on the planet. And I just know that we're titillating you as we go on. You're like, I'm sitting here wanting a whole deep dive on Bill and his descendants. You know what? I'm going to put it on the list. Maybe one day we'll do a Shakespeare deep dive and I'll just be like, please see episode 12. This counts. Where we talk about it right now. But Blanche has this line where she says she feels certain that after the date, the part is hers. And I wrote, because you're going to fuck him for it. Yeah.

Exactly. Oh my God. Yeah, and I'm going to let him use me to get a part in the play. It's so dirty.

Dirty. Dirty. Now, I did do a little bit of a Macbeth deep dive. Ooh. And I got a, I was really into it. I was just like looking around for interesting Macbeth trivia. I got to tell you, there's a lot of Macbeth trivia. Oh, yeah. None of it's interesting. It's all about like Scottish kings and stuff. Yeah. And I could not follow it, but I got two interesting little tidbits. Number one, Macbeth is one of Shakespeare's shortest plays coming in at around half the length of Hamlet. Mm-hmm. So if you're looking for something short to do and you need to go see a Shakespeare play, go see Macbeth, not the hams. Mm-hmm.

Also, Macbeth is referred to as the Scottish play within the theater community because of the superstition that the play is cursed. So I looked up the curse and this all comes from the Royal Shakespeare Company website. Like they have a really fascinating article on this. So the superstition apparently goes back to the very first production of Macbeth because as you know, there are witches in the play, although they're never called witches in the play. They're called the Weird Sisters and they're only referred to as the witches in the stage directions. Right.

But apparently upon like the original production, a coven of witches objected to Shakespeare using real incantations. So they put a curse on the play. And legend has it that the play's very first performance around 1606 was riddled with disaster. The actor playing, because men played women back then, the

actor playing Lady Macbeth died suddenly, so Shakespeare himself had to take over the part. Other rumored mishaps include real daggers being used in place of stage props for the murder of King Duncan, resulting in an actor's actual death. Can you imagine? I can imagine. I mean, Shakespeare stepping in is just like Casey Nicholaw stepping in for Some Like a Hot.

Did he do that? He did. He stepped in for one of the main actors. Yeah, he went on. Because like the understudy was out and he was out. Everyone was, they would have had to cancel the show. And when you cancel a show, everyone, I mean. Oh, it's refunding a million dollars. It's just crazy. Yeah. So the play hasn't had much luck since that opening production. Oh, the famous ass

Oh, that's...

That's amazing. Isn't that wild? Other productions have been plagued with accidents, including actors falling off the stage, mysterious deaths, even a narrow misses by falling stage weights, as happened to Laurence Olivier at the Old Vic in 1937. Now, if you happen to be the dummy who utters the actual name of the play instead of calling it the Scottish play in the theater, there is a way to break the curse. Do you know what it is? Well, people have different things, but let me see if they wrote what I think it is, which is you're supposed to go outside the theater

the theater, spin around three times. I don't know if you have to whistle, but you have to knock on the door and ask to come back in. According to the Royal Shakespeare Company website, you're very close. Okay. It says you exit the theater, you spin around three times, you have to curse, then knock on the theater door to be let back in. Oh, so it's just... You have to be like, oh, fuck! I think I was a child, so they probably said, oh...

You know. And that's the Macbeth mini deep dive. And I think we're going to find out in this episode, the curse was alive and well at the community theater where Blanche is auditioning. Well, back to the episode. Dorothy and Sophia follow Blanche into the living room and Sophia seems in a rush, almost a panic to find this suitor for Dorothy. Blanche, Blanche, does he have a friend for Dorothy? We know this is last minute, so we'll take short.

Rose enters wearing a pink mother of the bride dress. It's like she got it out of Dorothy's closet. 100% shoulder pads for days. Replete with matching pink satin shoes. Yes, and like these women are getting dressed up.

up to go out on these dates. It's true. And you know what I hate? Betty White, they have her in more conservative clothing. Yeah. But it's a shame because she's got a rocking body. One hundred percent. She's got like the boobs. Probably the best figure. Yeah. All comparison aside. She's just got the greatest body. She's got that like hourglass. Long legs, big boobs. Anyway. So Rose says, you know, she's never been out with a fat lighting director before. What are we going to talk about in Planship?

She says, how should I know? Talk about light bulbs. Rose says, that's a good idea. Maybe he could explain to me how the three-way bulb works. I've always wondered about that. So I gotta tell you, I looked up what a three-way bulb is. It made you wonder? Did it make you wonder? It made me wonder. So the thing is, I thought this was going to be so boring. I was...

by learning this. Because the three-way light bulb is actually one light bulb. It looks like a regular light bulb, but with three different filaments. So there's a low setting, a medium setting, and a high setting. And you're like, how does it choose? How does it know? And I said, the only thing complicated about the bulb is that it only works with a three-way lamp. So the three-way bulbs

screws into this three-way lamp, which has a specific socket that makes it work or whatever. And there's a three-way switch. And it made me think like the only three-way bulb I can think of is like, you know, those lights in hotels that you like tap it and like it goes up, up, up. Like that's a three-way light bulb lamp.

I think I've read too that now you can get them in fluorescents and LEDs, but they don't really make the old light bulbs, the incandescent three ways as much anymore. Just get it on a dimmer. Everybody just get a dimmer. I just wanted to say, I think it's a legitimate question because Dorothy is about to give Rose shit for this. Yeah. I think that wanting to ask a lighting designer about the three-way bulb is a totally legit question. And I think Rose in the

fat lighting guy would have had a really interesting conversation about it. You know what? I think you're right. Yeah. But Dorothy's always going to come in with the jab. Yeah. And she said she's always wondered about the same thing, Rose, that and what Jane Polly looks like standing up.

Rose says maybe she can't stand up. Maybe Willard has to carry her around the set. You guys, you remember Willard, right? Yes. The original Ronald McDonald. He invented Ronald McDonald. And Jane Pauley, of course, today's show fame. It's so funny, her saying that maybe Willard had to carry her around the set. It made me reflect on a parenting moment. Yeah? Because I don't know if it was just me and Steve or if it's all parents, but Daisy was a late walker. I

took her like a long time to learn how to walk. But like, I remember like being concerned about it and then just thinking like, you know what? Most people who have the ability learn how to walk. You know what I mean? And I imagine her at like 19 interning at a law firm, like army crawling across the floor because she just decided that she just never learned how to walk. Listen, my mom was worried. Same thing. My brother's...

same but different. My mom was worried because my brother Chris at two and a half still wasn't speaking. My older brother Tom used to translate for him. Wow. So all Chris was saying at that age was, uh. And he'd say, uh, and Tom would say, he wants a cracker. Ha ha ha.

And sure enough, he wanted a cracker. Tom was the Chris Whisperer? He was the Chris Whisperer. That's so great. Good for you, Tom. Are you guys all close? Very. Oh, I love that. I am blessed with an amazing family. Oh my God, that is so great. Me too, I will say. Yeah? Yeah. Well, I'm going to talk a little bit more about that later. Oh, I'm excited.

I'm excited. I want to know about that. So Blanche is ushering Rose out the door and she says, come on, honey, we don't want to keep our dates waiting. And Dorothy hollers from the couch to Blanche. She says, wait, Blanche, aren't you forgetting something? And Blanche says, oh no, I never wear underwear. But I will also only ever be able to think of Blanche as not wearing underwear ever again. I also love it. I mean, just what a fox. So Dorothy says, no, I'm talking about my jewelry. And then Blanche has such a good line. Oh, forget it. Why paint the peacock?

Why paint the peacock? Her sense of self, her sense of her... Self-esteem. Yes, her belief in her own beauty. I've never seen anything like it. I admire it, actually. Especially since we learned about the trauma of her childhood where everybody in her family hated her. And do you remember, I forgot what episode it was, but remember when Dorothy's going to say, you were fat and fat. Fat, fat water rat. 30 faces in your head or something like that.

Yes. Blanche firmly believes she's the most beautiful woman on the planet. Yeah. So now we're alone in the living room with Dorothy and Sophia. Blanche and Rose have just gone off to their dinner date. What time do you think it is? If they're going for their dinner date, 7 p.m. at the latest. Yeah. Right? Right. I'm just realizing now Dorothy is fully in her nightgown. Oh, yeah. And has been because like when we opened, they were washing dishes. She's fully in her nightgown. Sophia, fully dressed. Do we think Dorothy's a drinker? This is

happened a few times now. I'm saying I am really worried about Dorothy's mental health. Is she coming home from her long day of substitute teaching, 3.15 p.m. sharp, she puts on her nightgown. Well, that's a good observation. My observation was Sophia just won't get off her deck. I know. I know. Your sister Gloria never sits home on a Friday night, and she's a widow. Every time I talk to her, she's going out with another guy. Ma, she calls you three times a year. She's very busy. I'm thrilled she finally found the time for a visit. Ma.

Ma, why do you always make excuses for her? I don't make excuses for any of my children. Except Phil.

It's so interesting that Sophia says she makes excuses for Phil. And we're going to get a lot more into that in my deep dive at the end of this episode. So anyway, poor Dorothy. I really. Because, you know, we're talking, we know that Gloria is visiting. And Sophia is saying, like, Gloria never sits at home on a Friday night. And she's a widow. And Dorothy's like, Ma, she calls you three times a year. Like, now we're getting, like, the prodigal son story of it all. Like, you know, I'm the daughter that stays home and takes care of you. But she doesn't even call you. I have so many questions about Gloria. She's the rich one. She's got no responsibility. She's not married. Her kids are six.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, and I think by the end she tries to. And I would think that there's probably going to be more aid in the future. Yes. Right. And I just understand Dorothy's frustration. Oh, yeah. Like, why are you defending Gloria and you're making fun of me when I'm the one who takes care of you? So anyway, Dorothy is just like, you know, she does the escape hatch plan. She's like, Ma, I think I'll watch TV in my room. I've made the note here that this moment made me sad.

Because you can hear the resignation in Dorothy's voice. Like she's kind of just sick of getting picked on. Yeah. And it feels like it's been, you know, you just go through this with some people where like things are great and it's usually great. But then like you're in a patch where like you're just not connecting. Oh, listen, I'm of the belief that you really have to remember in relationships of all kinds that sometimes you're in sync and sometimes you're not.

Yes. And if you can ride out the times that you're not in sync and realize that that's just normal, it's a lot easier to deal with. And it seems like that's what Dorothy's doing. She's kind of going to get up and go like spend the evening in her room without her mom. And we've not seen this side of their relationship before. They're usually like on the

same team, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so this moment just made me a little sad. And we get a couple more moments like this throughout the episode. Agreed, agreed. So Sophia, again, she's on her, says, before you go, before you go, call this number. Yeah. And Dorothy's like, what is it? And Sophia says, it's a phone number. I met this guy at the supermarket. You know, she asked him to squeeze a melon for her. And then she says he's missing a few fingers, but everything else seems to be intact. No, it's...

In classic Dot fashion, she completely overreacts. Ma, how dare you? How dare I what? I was trying to help. Ma, can you get it through your head that I do not need your help? Now please, Ma, get off my back. Think you're talking to? Don't you raise your voice to your mother. Then stop smothering me and give me some space. Space? Fine. Have all the space you want.

Where are you going? To Mildred's. She's shorter than you. She doesn't need so much space. I mean, she reacts so huge. And like when she's saying, how, Ma, how dare you? How dare you? Sophia's like, I'm trying to help Dorothy during this next line. Ma, can you get it through your head that I do not need your help? And she tears up this note and throws it at her mother.

It's really crazy. And I was like, I know that they're just trying to show us that they're not getting along. They're having a very out of sync moment to use your term. But like, Sophia did this in the safest way possible. It's not like she gave the guy Dorothy's number. It's not like we'll see in later episodes where she's

trading dates with her daughter for catering for the event you know it's like she was basically like here's the number you can call him if you want i don't know why sophia is suddenly so concerned about dorothy going on dates or whatever but this is like a big explosive moment and dorothy just like storms out yeah i also made the note when dorothy says give me some space she raises her arms to the gods like she really is claiming her space it's like a starfish and

And you know that wingspan on her is big. She's one of those center of the bed starfish people. We're going to talk about the size of Dorothy's bed a little bit later in this episode because, oh my God, we see in stark reality how small that thing is. But, you know, Sophia says, fine, take all the space you need. And she's about to walk out the door. And Dorothy has a moment of like softness now because she was screaming a second ago. She's like, mom, where are you going? And she says, I'm going to Mildred's. She's shorter than you. She doesn't need so much space. I love it when we're actually not on the same opinion. Yeah, I do.

I just have here, I'm with Dorothy on this one. Okay. And I said, this is like the opposite of Rose and her mother. Yes. Because if memory serves, Sophia was on Alma's side. Uh-huh. And it just seems like she's not honoring it in reverse. Yes. You know, and it makes me crazy if someone doesn't respect my boundaries. Yes.

Yes. And before Dorothy lost it and, you know, inappropriately raised her voice. I mean, she told her over and over and over again. So that bothered me, you know? What I think is interesting, and I make this note later, is that what's happening here is they're learning to navigate a new living situation. Like Ma just showed up a couple weeks ago. They're living together. Dorothy is more of a homebody than Blanche or even Rose. They are together a lot. The house isn't that

big. There's only the common areas like the kitchen and the living room. Yeah. So like what I'm seeing is that like they're just together too much and they kind of overcorrect in this episode. Okay. You know. So it's the next day and Sophia is making oatmeal at the stove. Yes, you're right. And Rose is pouring orange juice because they love their OJ. Their OJ is in every episode. Hey guys, if you didn't know, they're in Florida.

There are oranges down there. That's where the oranges come from. So Blanche is seated reading a script of Macbeth. So Rose is wondering why the community theater is doing Macbeth and Blanche said, I can't understand why the community theater chose Macbeth for its spring production. Oh, well, Jason said they were planning to do a musical, but the accordion player died. Besides, I think it's a much bigger challenge playing Lady Macbeth. Oh, but Blanche, you don't have the part yet. You still have to audition. Oh, honey, I did.

Last night, I opened to great reviews. I opened to great reviews. If you think about that sentence, that's a really dirty joke. Opened? Double entendre. Opened to great reviews. I love it. So I wrote down, I searched it out and found the character description for Lady Macbeth. This is from Shakespeare's Globe. Just because this is the role that Blanche is dying to get. I know I've seen...

Macbeth and Lady Macbeth is Macbeth's wife, right? And this is the description. Lady Macbeth is a strong, ruthless and ambitious woman. It is she who suggests to Macbeth that they should kill the king in order to make the witch's prophecy come true. Seemingly more strong-willed than Macbeth, she helps her husband recover from his fear after he kills the king and helps the cover-up.

But as Macbeth grows more and more used to being a tyrant following the king's murder, Lady Macbeth suffers more and more from guilt. She goes mad and finally kills herself. Who does not want to watch Blanche do this role? Oh, please. The nuances. You know what, though? I'd rather watch Rose do that role, to be perfectly honest. I know. I want to see Rose pull it from within her soul. No, I want to see shipwrecked on the shore Rose. Yeah.

Play Lady Macbeth. Listen up! I love it when Rose gets real bossy. You know? But you know who would also be great is Dorothy. Dorothy would be a great Lady Macbeth. I mean... Or just Macbeth. You know what I mean? Dorothy would be a great Macbeth. Well, Dorothy enters with a tied-up smock. Oh, my God. And one of her art smocks that we love. And Sophia, all I have here is Sophia is salty. She walks in and the first thing Sophia says is... Clear out, girls. Dorothy needs her space.

And Dorothy says, Ma, don't start with me. And of course, Rose, ever the mediator. Because Rose can't live with any tension. She cannot handle it. And she's like,

And it was so great because she's scooping the oatmeal at this point and so dry and subtle. And I have a little deep dive on a ditty bag. Oh, good. I didn't even know what that was a real thing. Okay. Well, a ditty bag, it's a receptacle for odds and ends. All right. Especially ones used by sailors and fishermen. Okay.

But here's the thing that you don't know, Patrick. I loved it because on Broadway, that's what we put our dirty laundry in at the end of the night. It's called a ditty bag. It's a ditty bag. Usually it's by number. So like in Death Becomes Her, Megan Hilty, her bag will have a number one on it and mine will have number two and so on and so forth. You know, like, so when you're in the ensemble, maybe you're like 26 or something, you know? So I've always loved over the years. Ranked by importance. That's doing you dirty, Broadway. That's doing you dirty. I have loved like seeing my number go up

over the years. Like, I was once 372. Yes! Oh my God! Your titty bag number. Listen, I'm the silver medalist now. Are you kidding? I'm featured. I'm supporting actress. Oh, that's so great. I love that. Like, as a woman, let's say. Usually what goes in there at night for me, my bra...

My thong. Yeah. Whatever tights I have to wear in the show. Little panties that you wear over the tights. Wow. Like a dance pant, you know. Sometimes a corset if you have. But anything that touches your skin. Yeah. Skin parts. I love Jennifer Samar, ditty bag number two. Ditty bag Jen. I'm so into it. Ditty bag Jen. Oh, we should sell ditty bag as merch. Ditties on your titties. Yeah. My titty bag. My ditty bag. Yes. That's what we call bras now. That's what we call my tits. Oh, my God. These are my ditty bags. Okay.

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So there's a doorbell. And Sophia and Dorothy, they have a power struggle. They're chasing each other through the living room to try to figure out who's going to answer the door. Right. And so Dorothy's like, I'll get it. I'll get it. Ma, I just told you I'll get it. I don't want you to get it. Fine. You get it. What am I, your servant? Dorothy.

Dorothy is wearing the brown trash bag shirt from the pilot. Oh, I just saw that it was tied on the bottom. And it's not the only costume recycled for this episode. Well, I can say it now that she has the purple flower sweater that she just wore with Stan. Yes. When he had the roast beef sandwich. Like if this isn't in the timeline of the show, like it was last week she was wearing this. But I also love that it's

just a week later because you do wear the same clothes week after week. Of course. Like, I only have one week's worth of clothes. Like, who has? Barely do I have one week's worth of clothes. You know what I mean? We all don't have and all due respect to them and their success, but like, all of us don't have Kardashian closets. Exactly. Correct. Exactly. You know, with storage units of clothes. Oh, God. Anyway. So the door opens. It's Gloria. So this act

Her name is Dolores Bellick, and she's that woman that you recognize from everything. But basically, she was like a soap opera superstar. She originated the role of Anna Wollick Craig for nearly a decade on One Life to Live. She appeared in Another World as three different roles over several years. She was also in other soap operas called The Doctors and The Edge of Night. And then later in the 80s, she had a recurring role of Pine Valley's mayor on All My Children. And she...

also played, I know you love this, she played the formidable soap opera producer Rita Marshall in the 1982 film Tootsie starring Dustin Hoffman. Oh yeah, Cheesecakes, you'll remember this moment where she's in the producer booth and there's Dustin Hoffman dressed up and she says to the camera operator, she's like, I'd like to make her look a little more attractive. How far can you pull back? How do you feel about Cleveland? I

In my brain, I kept getting tootsie confused with soap dish like I'm not a flaming homosexual. You know what I mean? Another great film. I have here too. She opens the door to red haired Gloria. Yes, yes. I have a little bit more about the actress. From 1990 to 2001, she had a recurring role as, quote, sharp tongued jug Margaret Berry on Law and Order and Law and Order Special Victims Unit. Then get this. She and her husband both died within four months of each other in 2011. They'd been married for 65 years. Oh, how the notebook. I know. Aw. 65.

five years. And by the way, did you say judge? Because I thought you said jug. Yeah. Titty bags. Titty bags. Titty bags. So Dorothy opens the door and Gloria and her fiery red hair are here. Fiery red hair. Doesn't look natural. It does not look natural. Gloria and Dorothy embrace. Like, they love each other. Like, they seem very close. Yeah. And I just wrote down, like, it's hard to remember all the sibling relationships on this show. Like, Blanche hates her sisters. Can't remember about Rose. You know what I mean? It all is very complicated, but it seems like Gloria and Dorothy really get along. I actually...

In my mind, before I rewatched the episode, I thought that they didn't get along as well. And then I was like, oh, it's actually a lot more loving than I remember. They definitely have like their tense moments. Yeah, they do. But it's still handled so like adults. Very much so. You know, which I like. But she comes in with presents for everyone. And you quickly learn that she's wealthy. Wealthy and staying at a hotel. Like she's there just to say a quick hello. She's not planning to stay. And I wrote, look, let's be honest, unless your place is...

is a mansion and you have your own room and a bathroom. We are too freaking old if you can afford it. There's this imaginary line that if you have the funds where you're just like, you know what? I'm going to stay in a hotel. Yes. The only home and she's a listener. My sister-in-law, Julie, who I am absolutely obsessed with, her and her husband, Ben, who's Steve's brother, have this beautiful, beautiful house in North Carolina. And we usually go down there like once a year. I love it.

love staying at their house. See, it's like parents also host us every, like, for holidays and stuff. And I love the family, but it is too many people and too small a space. Yeah. The only house I like to stay at is Julie and Ben's. It's a privilege, you know, can you afford to, you know, stay at a hotel or not? There's also the thing that happens when you get older, like,

there's a time when you have your friends help you move in a van and a truck. And then there's an age you have the funds where you're like, and we're hiring professional movers. And once you do it, it kind of ruins you. It's like getting laundry in your apartment. Yes. You never go back. You never go back. My friend, Tom, I'll never forget it. I went, uh, we were like in our late twenties and I asked Tom if he could help us move. And he said, no. And I was offended. And he goes, girl, have I ever asked you to help me move? And I was like,

no, I guess you haven't. He's like, we don't do that anymore. We're too old for that. We get movers now. Yeah. And I was like, oh shit, Tom, like, like laid it out for me, girl. But it does change your life. So I want, you know what I want? I want everybody to be able to have that privilege because it really does make a difference. But,

Sophia is, again, salty Sophia. She's not happy about this fact. Because Gloria is saying, like, I don't want to be an inconvenience. And Sophia's like, inconvenience? We shared a body. And what I like about this episode, and it's consistent in this scene too, is that nobody is saying what they actually want or feel. Or feeling. You can see it on their faces. And in their attitude.

But not their words. They're not being nice to each other. Like, Sophia desperately wants Gloria to stay at the house. Yeah. And she wants to know emotionally that she wants to, that she loves her. That's what it's about. And so, you know, ultimately, Sophia finally says, fine, go be more comfortable. I hardly see you. You never come to visit. You finally get here. You're staying at a hotel. You could have just called.

I know. I mean, that's, it's not exactly accurate because they are going to spend time together. Right. FaceTime together. I also love that. Lunch, all that stuff. Yeah. And Gloria and Dorothy are making faces at each other like, oh my God. Like sisters do. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so Gloria just lays it out. It's like, Ma, do you want me to stay at the house? And Sophia-

Do what you want. So Dorothy invites her to stay in her room, to share her room in her very tiny bed. We're going to get to that because there's a whole scene that takes place in this miniature bed. But, you know, I wrote all I could think about in this moment when she agrees to stay at the house is the logistical nightmare of having to go back to the hotel and get her luggage back.

and cancel her reservation and go up to the room and get all the stuff that she already put. Like, all I could think about was the inconvenience of having to go back to the hotel and get all your shit to come back to the house. Except I'm like, she's rich. It's not going to be fine. So Blanche and Rose enter. And, you know, Dorothy's really, really sweet. She wants to introduce Gloria to her two closest friends. And then we get like this moment with Rose where Rose is like,

Oh, Gloria, Sophia's told us so much about you. I especially enjoyed the story about your imaginary childhood friend, David, who lived in the oven. I had an imaginary friend, but he'd never tell me his name. It was during spring planning-- Rose, do you mind? Gloria's only staying for a week. I'd like to talk to her before she leaves.

Sometimes they give Rose the weirdest jokes. I sort of love it though. I'm like, were they high when they wrote it? And they just, this is like, they're like, and then a giraffe went on a trip to Europe. I mean, they're just so weird. Because Rose says, I had an imaginary friend, but he would never tell me his name. Like what a weird joke. I know, I know. And then of course,

She continues. So it's going to turn into one of these never-ending St. Olaf stories, right? Exactly, yes. And so, you know, Rose and Blanche are off to the audition. I keep forgetting that Blanche, though she auditioned in bed, has to actually go and actually audition. I would give anything to see her Lady Macbeth speech at her audition. I will say this, though. As they exit for this audition, in my opinion, Rose is better dressed for Lady Macbeth than Blanche. Oh, interesting. Yes, Rose is wearing this long turquoise dress, and it's a solid color. And in my opinion, solids work

a lot better for auditions on stage and in camera. And, you know, Blanche is wearing a blazer and a colorful blouse and pants and trousers. And it just, I don't know. Well, it's a little foreshadowing. She had a little bit more presence, in my opinion, if you know what I mean. All right. Diddy bag number two. I see where you're going. So,

So, you know, they exit and Dorothy is saying, let's go to the kitchen. I'll make us some coffee. And this is such a, this happened for time in a sitcom moment because Gloria is like, no, no, no. I insist that you open the gifts I brought, but like then tells them what is in the boxes. I know. Doesn't let them open it. Which is sort of all about her, which kind of tracks for Gloria, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. For Sophia, she's getting her a new outfit, some warm pajamas and an electric blanket. Because it's Miami. And I was like.

It's Miami. It's Miami. You know what I mean? Every time I call you, it seems you have a cold. I know. It's funny because based on the costumes and moments like this, if they never referenced where the show took place, you'd be like, I love the Golden Girls taking place in Seattle.

I love that that's where it takes place. You know, Anchorage. Now that I'm thinking about it though, like how much must Estelle Getty weigh? I'm sure it's out there. It's literally like 87 pounds. It's got to be 87. It's got to be 90 pounds tops. Oh my gosh. Do you know what I realized today? What? We were getting really concerned because a lot of people were putting Estelle Getty's address that she grew up in, in the Facebook group. And we were like, oh my God, that feels kind of like that's not information that should be out there. We literally asked the cheesecakes to go find the information and then they did. Yeah, I know. You know,

I know, but the building burned down, so it's not the same building, thank God. It's not the same building, but Steve and Sasha, our Facebook mod, and I were like, why are people doing that? We shouldn't be putting out information like that. We literally asked them to. I'm the one that made the first post because the Cheesecakes were emailing me. It's actually two people that I know who are listeners. Oh. And so I went, great, I'll post it because we did put out the call. Totally. So blame me. What is wrong with me? I'm so sorry. I hope we have a lawyer.

This is an LLC, right? Okay, good. Don't worry about it. Well, Dorothy, to this, when she says, every time I call, you know, you seem to have a cold, Dorothy says, call more often. Which I was like, oh, shots fired, Dot. Right, but then, here's Sophia, in for the block. She says, don't pick on your sister. Yeah. Yeah.

taking her side again. And it's just another thing building the tension between Dorothy and Sophia, right? Yeah. So then Gloria's also brought a gift for Dorothy and it's a gift certificate for a full makeover at Elizabeth Arden. And so Sophia says, this is just savage. Maybe now you can get a date. It's just like, oh my God. You know, I have a little ditty on Elizabeth Arden. Oh, tell me everything. Well,

You know, I love makeup. And makeup is a big part of my life. All right. So Elizabeth Arden was a Canadian-American businesswoman who founded what we know as Elizabeth Arden, Inc. There's a huge cosmetic empire in the United States. By 1929, she owned, get this, 150 salons in Europe and the United States. Yeah. Both in Europe and here. She was the sole owner as a woman. All right. At the

peak of her career, she was one of the wealthiest women in the world. And I just have to say this as a musical theater geek, you know, this character was one half of the starring characters of the Broadway musical War Paint that I saw at the New York Theater. You saw it. It also starred Patti LuPone as Helena Rubinstein. And now that company was bought by L'Oreal. That's how we know it.

now what she founded. So Gloria says she's going to go freshen up and this is where they start to really drop in and hit home how rich Gloria is. Yeah. She says she's going to go freshen up and then call her driver. Yeah. And then she says to Sophia I'm taking you for lunch ma and then a shopping spree. Dorothy's not invited. I'm just thinking of this now. This is like the parent who wants to spoil the kid because they only get them on the weekends. Do you know what I mean? Oh yes.

Totally. And in a way, Sophia's mad at the mom that stays home every night. You know, mad at the one that's at home and doing all the work. That's exactly right. That's what it feels like. Because we get another kind of sad moment between Dorothy and Sophia. That Gloria is some special kid. Amma, she's your baby. All mothers think their babies are special. That's ridiculous. I think all my children are special. Except Phil. Sure, Amma.

Oh, Dorothy, can I make a little suggestion when you go for your makeover? Sure. What is it? Don't expect a miracle. I just was like the savagery. Well, and I have, remember how we heard that Bea Arthur was like, you've all been so mean to me for seven seasons. I mean, that can wear on you after a while. 100%. But just as far as the quality of the work, let me just tell you here. I've been saying now for a while that comedy is in odd numbers. Yes. Threes and fives. Bea Arthur does...

five takes. The author does five takes. Four wouldn't work. And you even hear the laugh dip on the fourth one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then rise back up on the fifth. So you're talking about her response to this. Her response to this. Yes. So what she does is she sort of makes this growl smirk. Yeah. She does that like three times. Yeah. Like I'm going to say something. Then she turns and she looks back and she goes to the door and she turns back. She goes to the door. She turns back one more time. Yeah. So it's five takes. Wow.

And you have to do, she either had to stop after the third. If she had stopped on the fourth, that wasn't the way to end it. She goes to five. You got to really commit because it's not, it doesn't happen fast. You know, like she's got to really believe in. No, she took her time. Yes. Look, there are times where there's a call and response and comedy can be in twos, but every comedian will tell you that comedy is in threes. And what they mean by that is odd numbers. I love that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So next scene, we're in the kitchen. Rose and Blanche enter. Dorothy asks how the audition went. And Blanche says...

Hi, how was the audition? Wonderful. I'm 99% sure I got the part. Oh, Blanche, there were so many good people there. Trust me, I got this part in the sack. She means in the bag. No, honey, she means in the sack.

Like so subtle. It's so subtle. So good. So good. It's so fast. It's just great. So Rose, innocent as ever. Where's Sophia? And Dorothy just explains that Gloria and Sophia went shopping and they haven't come home yet, you know? And we get this really lovely exchange between Rose and Dorothy where Rose is just saying like, Gloria seems like such a lovely person. And it's like Dorothy cannot say enough good things about her sister. Right. They do start to talk about sibling rivalry. Yeah. And they all kind of talk about it. Blanche too and Rose. And I have

to say, Patrick, as lovely as this all is, I think it's normal for siblings to have this. Sure. But you asked me before if I'm close to my brothers. Yeah. And the answer is yes. When my mom was dying in the hospital, we realized that any single one of us wouldn't have been able to do something that the other one did. Totally. And we kind of came up with this thing that we're ethos, pathos, and logos. Yeah, my brother Tom is ethos, I'm pathos, and my brother Chris is logos.

Oh, I love that.

We also know that we will find out later she's got the gay brother, Clayton. Yeah. But in particular now, she says, like, my sister's better than me. And Rose is saying, that's silly. How could you possibly know such a thing like that? Blanche says, because they told me.

And I wrote here, this is so wild to me because you always imagine Blanche being the favorite, the most beautiful, you know? But really, she was a little bit wild and a little bit like her parents thought she was kind of a lot. And the way that we see her narcissism as charming, I think that she was kind of a lot. Imagine that person taking shape in their teenage years and the acting out that would have come along with that. Yeah, and we know from her sister,

from transplant, that there was a lot of manipulation from each sister to gain favor with the parents, right? The story about the sister electrocuting Blanche with a Christmas star, it's one of the funniest stories I've ever heard. Well, speaking of funny stories, I do love this next joke about the clowns. Like on our birthdays. Now, when we were little, every year, my sisters had huge parties with clowns and magicians and tons of presents. No, and you didn't. Well, not exactly. I mean, I did have parties and I had presents, but...

I never had a clown. Not until I was much older. Yeah, but that's another story.

Much older. Which is so brilliant. The way Dorothy nods and leans into it, it's so good. And it's like, did they come up with that? Or do you think that was written that way? So we interviewed Stan Zimmerman. Yes. And one thing he had said. Stan Zimmerman, again, was a writer. He wrote four episodes in season one. And he said that contrary to popular belief, because Patrick and I have wondered this a couple of times on the podcast. Yeah. Do they ad lib? And he said no. Because he says that people in pop culture think that they would ad lib, but

they didn't. No. I think this was scripted that way. And it's really... Because at this point, Winifred, I love her and I can't wait to do a deep dive on her. Yes. But she seems to know them well enough by now to know that that's the funnier way to do it. Until I was much older. I think that's so funny that they both say it together. Rose goes on to tell us...

why her parents thought each of the children were the favorites. And I said, Patrick, in this room, you're Rose. I would love you to tell us Rose's story. So Rose is saying, number one, my parents loved all nine of us equally. I was like, is this new information? Rose is one of nine? That's, no.

I have it in red. You know what I mean? Nine. We do learn that, like, Rose is really good at the sex. You know what I mean? So, like, maybe it runs in the family. They just couldn't keep their hands off each other or whatever. Oh, gosh. She's good at the sex. What does she have? 56 boyfriends. Stand back. She's gonna blow. The slut is dead. Long live the slut. I'm getting ahead of myself. This is what...

The Cheesecakes and Us on the Facebook group have realized it really is favorite moments. Ain't it? Yes. You know what I mean? Yes. Oh, my God. And that's one of them. God damn it. Do we have any more orange cheese throws? We do, Dorothy. Would you like me to pour you a glass or have your mother come in here and bring the refrigerator to you?

Oh, OK. We have to be stopped. We need a chaperone. We really do. But Rose is saying like she's just describing this idyllic childhood as seen through their Christmas eves. And she's saying daddy would sit around grandma's old player piano and play Christmas carols and the children would sing along. Mother would bring in homemade eggnog and snickerdoodles. At which point we get a

cut to Blanche and Dorothy looking at each other doing a take like oh god yeah exactly we've been here before exactly and then she goes we'd all decorate the tree and then daddy would hang the star at the very top of the tree we would all hold hands and pray and then he would tuck us into our who was your father Rose Michael Landon who was your father Rose Michael Landon

She barely gets out feather beds and Dorothy just can't take it. It's so damn funny. It's so good. Oh, and I've got some titty bags. Welcome to the Golden Girls Titty Bags podcast. Oh, we're your hosts, Patrick and Jennifer. We segued from I've got a ditty to ditty bags. Yes. To titty bags. To titty bags.

Welcome to the Golden Girls Titty Bags podcast. Here we go. So Michael Landon was an American actor and filmmaker. I'm just gonna say I loved Michael Landon. Is he dead? Oh, boo. He's dead. It was so sad at the time and I'll get there. But he was so beautiful. I remember being like, oh, my God.

Let me ask you this. Did you have as much a crush on him as you did on Stan Spornak? Oh, my God. We actually have an intervention scheduled right after this. I found Stan sexy for two minutes. I don't know. Does Blanche go on a date with him? I'm like, I'm not alone here. Oh, my God. You know? Well, getting back to gorgeous Michael Landon, he is known for his roles as little Joe Cartwright in Bonanza and really most famous for playing Charles Ingalls in Little House on the Prairie. Yes.

All right, so his character on Little House on the Prairie was ranked number four in TV Guide's list of the 50 greatest TV dads of all time. Aww. Didn't get on the podium.

Close. He was the main man of the little house, right? In Pennsylvania. Hardworking. This is why Dorothy said that to Rose, because Charles Ingalls was hardworking, honest, salt-of-the-earth guy. All right? His daughters adored him and did pretty much anything to please him. So Michael Landon continued to act and write and produce and direct until, to answer your question, Patrick, he was diagnosed with

pancreatic cancer in 1991. And he lost his cancer battle. And this was hard for me to read because I'm going to be this age in a month.

He died at 54. Oh, my God. Less than three months after he was diagnosed. 54. 50 fucking four. Ugh. Jesus. That's brutal. Yeah, it is brutal. Well, back to the episode. Look, Rose wants us to know they had their hard times, too. I know I'm describing this idyllic childhood, but she says, can I help it if I come from a happy family? But we had our share of problems. We had some hard times. Once a mysterious drifter stole our butter churn. Ha ha ha.

So funny. And this next thing made me funny, Patrick. Bea Arthur appears to look at a clock somewhere near the stove, but she's wearing a watch. Yes. Yes. Yep. Yep. You know, just made me laugh. So looking at this invisible clock, she says, she surmises that, you know, Ma and Gloria aren't coming back for dinner. She says, what say we go out and grab a hamburger? And Patrick, I was like, God, I want to go for a burger with them. So me too, because Blanche jumps out of her seat before. She's like, Dorothy's not even, mmm.

Mmm in the hamburger. I was relisting to one of our episodes. I think it was Rose Dupree, but you're like, unenviable lip. And I, honest to God, I don't know why there's no recording of me laughing louder because that's damn funny. But just now, you just made me pee my pants a little bit. She doesn't even get to the mmm of the hamburger.

I was going to say to make a comedy genius laugh like that is a really high compliment. I had to pull away from the mic. I hope I haven't deafened our engineer, Jennifer. My point is that Blanche is so into the hamburger. There is no way in the world Blanche is eating burgers. Maybe she did a Kardashian where she ate very little and worked out before her Lady Macbeth audition. Oh, maybe. And she's celebrating with a burger. Now she's ravenous. Because she doesn't have to fuck anyone tonight.

And she can afford it. I have a pretty good idea that after tonight, the pot will be mine. Because you're going to fuck him for the part, Blanche. You're fucking him for the part. Are we allowed to say fuck? I think so. Okay, great.

So Rose chuckles. This reminds her of when Daddy would take us out for hamburgers on Saturday nights and the look on Blanche's face because they're all walking out of the kitchen. And Rose keeps talking. Blanche goes through the swinging door and then shoves it back in Rose's face. As Rose exits in full speed, so it hits her. Very funny. Blanche chooses aggression. Church's original recipe is back. You can never go wrong with original. Exactly.

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So it's bedtime and here we are in Dorothy's room. She's trying to tidy Gloria's, I counted, seven pieces of luggage. It's insane. We learned that Dorothy's bedroom has a bathroom because Gloria's walking out of it, to which I said this is also new information. Fancy. And this at the very least makes Blanche's house a three-bathroom home. Did she get permits for this? Well, listen, that's going to become an issue.

When you try to sell it, girl. Anyway. Exactly. But Blanche's bedroom has a bathroom because she goes in it in the pilot. Dorothy's bedroom has a bathroom and there's a bathroom at the end of the hall. And probably Sophia's and Rose's too. No, Sophia's does not have a bathroom. And Rose's too. I don't know. We'll have to go into Rose's bedroom at some point. Rose, you know, actually I forgot. Rose goes out on the lanai and pees on the grass. She just squats. She just squats. She squats the lanai. So Gloria exits the bathroom. Yes. All right. And the two of them have a

funny, lovely exchange, except for one line that does drive me crazy. Yeah. Well, so, you know, Gloria's saying, like, you know, I hope you're not mad that I kept Ma out so late. And Dorothy's like, please, get that bitch out of here. You know what I mean? Like, she is not mad. And she wants her and Dorothy to be closer, too. Right. You know? And Dorothy makes a joke about, I wish there was more time, but you clearly only packed for a weekend. Seven pieces of luggage. Right. And then, Gloria, it starts out okay. I hate this so much. Right. It gets to the line that I hate. Yes. But, you know, Gloria's like...

Well...

That bothered me for a while, but I got over it. Even though all my children are practicing professionals and yours aren't? Please, Gloria, I'm happy for your children. Gloria! This is an important scene because Gloria does get really honest later. Yeah. And that moment wouldn't work if we didn't have this. Yeah. But it's like,

I don't like Gloria as a person based on this scene. Like, all she wants to do is talk about how much money she has. She wants to talk about what she has and what Dorothy doesn't have. And it's so funny because later I say, Gloria's all right. Like, I do like Gloria later. But she keeps going on and on. She's like, no, I don't resent you. And Dorothy's like, I did, but I've got grown it. And Gloria's like, even though my marriage was happy and yours hit the rocks, okay, so it's getting worse and worse with each line. And Dorothy's like, well, that bothered

me for a while, but I got over it. And this here, Patrick, is the one that drove me crazy. This is the bad one. Comes for the children. Yeah. Even though all my children are practicing professionals and yours aren't, I wrote off Gloria. I know! No! Like, can you imagine a world where you would write a list like this? The fact that Dorothy didn't, like, go full vampire, like, levitate off the ground and just go right for her neck. It is a little disingenuous, isn't it? Because we've seen Dorothy overreact at

A lot less. Fly off the handle over nothing. But coming for her children to whom she'd give all of her kidneys, you know what I mean? I know, I know, I know. You know, it's just, it seems weird. And I'm like, wow, Gloria. I mean, also, and that's just the person that I am too. It's like, don't you make some blue collar whomever feel less than a white collar whomever? Whatever the fuck it is. It's like, how dare you? And you only have your money? Practicing professionals. Go fuck yourself. Fuck yourself. I'm like in red. I know. Fuck off, Gloria. Fuck off.

But then Dorothy says, I'm happy. She gets her back. It's great. She goes, please, Gloria, I'm happy for your children. All except Catherine. No, she really should have taken the nose job instead of the Mustang for graduation.

I love that Dorothy gets this dig in at ugly Catherine. What a great way to handle it, actually. It's like, you're going to come for my... Like, instead of actually getting mad... Totally. It's like, okay, two can play at that game. Exactly, because I'm imagining son Michael playing the saxophone at some fabulous bar down in New Orleans right now. Exactly. You know what I mean? He's living his life. Gloria, it's none of your goddamn business. Fuck off, Gloria. So they get into Dorothy's bed and it looks...

Yes, 100%. The wicker couch in the living room. Get on the couch.

I'm going to go get one of those like sunbathing chairs in the Lanai and just sleep in that. That's what I would do. I would give my sister the bed just so I didn't have to sleep with her. Is it like this because they got that one boom mic overhead and they got to get both? Like, what is the reason for giving Dorothy such a tiny bed? You could say that this is what I think. I also think money. I mean, you know, like king size beds are way more expensive than a queen, more expensive than...

This isn't even a queen. It's like, this is barely a double bed. But a double bed is the least expensive. And she is just recently divorced. Right. I know that she has her stole and her jewels. And you've been saying, like, her wardrobe. Like, how does she afford this exactly? But I actually think if you think about it more than that, it's like, well, TV and film, like, they recycled that kitchen set. And they were like, you know what? We're just going to get a bed that's the least expensive. Unless a king-size bed was germane to the story. Right. Speaking of just a quick...

piece of trivia that I forgot. I read this somewhere today that this is the first episode with new wallpaper in the kitchen. I did read that. I think it was maybe in Jess's research that like before this, it was this like gross yellow color. And now it's a much like softer like palm fronds or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're like, they re-wallpaper the kitchen. We get nothing about it. You could think they could get a new goddamn waterbed. I know.

The show's a hit. Come on. But my other thing is, like, this is why Gloria wants to go to the hotel. That's why I would go to the hotel. 100%. I have been known when I've stayed with friends, like, I've been known, like, if I slept in a bed with my girlfriend, if I, like, wake up in the middle of the night, I'm on the floor with a blanket. Totally. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Because also, can we just talk about this too? Like cuddling? Oh, cuddling, smuddling. Yeah. It's nice for about 10 minutes and then I'm hot and get the hell off of me. Uh-huh. Because sleep is sleep. I've become a little bit more of a cuddler in my older age, I will say. But not with my sister. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like Gloria, get thee to the hotel. Like the Four Seasons is just down the road. The Four Seasons Miami, I'm sure, is gorgeous. Yeah.

Anyway, they're reminiscing about childhood. You know, Gloria's saying, this reminds me of when we were kids and you would read me stories. Oh God, and this is funny, kids, right? Because obviously Dorothy is the older sister who's trying to scare her. Yes. So the list of stories are thus. Yeah, yeah. The boogeyman and the little girl. The zombie and the hamper. Cannibal parents. I think between the ages of five and seven, you might have gotten two hours sleep. And then Gloria asks her

asked her sincerely why Dorothy doesn't come visit her in California and she tries to sell her on it. I mean, she asked Dorothy that question and she has to know the answer. Well, maybe it's not so sincere. Right. She's like, it's not easy. I've got my job. I've got my responsibilities at dot, dot, dot. And I've never been invited. Yeah. Like Gloria, you set yourself up for that one, girl. Yeah.

And Gloria says, well, I'm inviting you now. And she says, I have servants and an ocean view and Bert Convey shops in my grocery store. And Dorothy says, Bert Convey? Who is Bert Convey? Bert Convey. I loved Bert Convey. He was just one of those guys that you saw everywhere. He's like an actor? He's an actor and a producer. He's known for the movie Cannonball Run, which was in 1981. So like that's right when I got HBO. So like I watched Cannonball Run 10 times.

He was in Hero at Large, Weekend Warriors, Saturday Night Live. This is the most fascinating fact I found out about him. In the book Saturday Night, A Backstage History of Saturday Night Live, he was one of several celebrities who asked to host, but he was rejected. Oh. Isn't that rough? Oh, that is rough. I know, but he's one of us. He was on Broadway. He was on Broadway in two musicals. He was in Fiddler on the Roof and Cabaret. I wonder if he was in it with Bea Arthur, maybe. Maybe, maybe. Maybe he was. Let's take a look.

In both instances, his characters were played in the movies by non-singing parts. His roles were changed. So I'm like, ow? Was it him in the movie or was somebody else doing a non-singing version? Someone else in the movie. Yeah. He was just in every like guest star. Like, you know, like I just remember seeing him like, oh, there he is again. There he is again. Like game shows. But sadly, he died on July 15th, 1991 in Los Angeles, California. But he had a great head of hair. Right around the time of Michael Lantan. Anyway, I love Burt Convy and I love being reminded that they referred to him here. But like,

so many people listening aren't going to know who the hell that is. I had no idea. But he was just one of those people that was just always there. Huh. Yeah. My only other note on this section is like, do we say servants? No. What a ridiculous word to use. Right. I know. You have a housekeeper, maybe. No. Why do I hate Gloria? If I was hot for Stan last episode, I hate Gloria in this episode. Geez, all right. I know.

Well, you probably did now because now the penny drops. Yes. Right? So she's setting her up. Why don't you come visit? And you can see her sort of trying to soften the blow. Like a primer coat. Yeah. A painted primer coat. So she says, I was telling Ma about it. I was telling Ma about it. You know, how great the weather is and how she would never have to lift a finger for anything. And she really liked the idea of maybe coming out. Oh, well, I think it'd be great if she were to come out for a visit sometime.

Well, I was thinking of more than just a visit, Dorothy. I was thinking of a permanent arrangement. What do you mean? I want Ma to come live with me.

So I asked her to, and she said yes. And she says, I want Ma to come and live with me. So I asked her and she said yes. Now, a couple of things. The actress, her choice here is to like, she looked at Dorothy when she says that. And then she says, so I asked her and she said yes. And she just kind of like looks away off into the heavens. And I was like, and now you have to sleep shoulder to shoulder next to your sister, who's probably fucking furious at you. Kiss me. Good night. I love you.

And then we have our five chord exit music. Yeah. And I'm just thinking about like the impracticality of Sophia actually moving to live with Gloria. What do you mean? Well, in Miami, they live together in a small house. She's got friends. She's got, you know. One level living. One level living. But like the friends in the neighborhood she loves. She takes care of Dorothy and Rose. And if she goes to California to live with Gloria, she's not going to know anybody. You know, Gloria is going to be sick of her in two minutes. Right. Gloria is going to be off with a boyfriend flying around.

wherever. She's going to be lonely, you think. Very lonely with nothing to do. Yeah. I think you're right. I hadn't thought about that and I think you're right. Yeah. I agree with you. Thank you. I'm really mad at Gloria. You are. I'm not as mad at her, but you are. And that's okay. And I respect that. So it's the next day and Dorothy walks into Sophia's bedroom where Sophia has a very small cardboard box. She's doing the actress busy work. She appears to be loading things into it. And I'm like, that's going to hold a pack of

gum, basically. You need a few more boxes, boo. I had this image of Sophia walking to the garage and looking for an empty box to pack her things. You know what I mean? Yeah. So Dorothy says, hi, Ma, what are you doing? And Sophia's salty, having a toga party. I have to say, though, like in this whole next section, to your point earlier about no one is saying what they really want to, they actually

is so good in this scene, right? You can really tell, we're jumping ahead, but you can really tell how much Sophia doesn't want to go. Right. And she just wants Dorothy to, like, in the words of Taylor Swift, say don't go. Say don't go. And they both think, but Dorothy at this point thinks Sophia wants to go. Yes. Right? So they think the other one wants this and fear and pride Right. and, and, and stops them. You know, I do definitely think that the pride and the fear is true, but I also do think that Dorothy doesn't want to get in the way of what her mother wants. Because she does say that later, like, she doesn't want to beg

the mom to stay and have the mom's like final years be miserable when she could be somewhere that she'd rather be. Yeah. Anyway, so it's one of those things where you're like, we all know, but they don't know. And it's, you know, Dorothy in response to Sophia's like sort of snarky comment was like, all right, nevermind. I'll come back when you're not like they're not communicating. Right. Exactly. And then Sophia's like, well, I'm not busy, but you do what you have to do, you know? And Dorothy says, well, Gloria tells me you're going to go live with her.

That's right. I think it's best. Well, isn't that kind of a fast decision? Why, you think I'm making a mistake? Oh, no, no, of course not. I mean, you know, not if you think it's best. What do you think? Well, I can understand why you'd want to live with her. I mean, she can give you so much more than I can. You'd live in a mansion. You'd have servants. You'd do your grocery shopping with Bert Convey.

And you'll have your space and you can sit home on Friday night and become an old maid like your Aunt Regina and you won't have to listen to me nag. It's a very well-written scene because the communication is so bad. Right. I will say, though, when she says, why, you think I'm making a mistake? I didn't

think of it as much as her backup as as much as it like please tell me it's a mistake please tell me to stay like I just you see the layers behind her eyes or maybe it is what you said but but there's also that other layer on top of it why so many people relate to this show you know people in especially like in relationships with their parents because like these conversations are really hard to have yeah and it is very scary and hard to be vulnerable

Yeah, especially for them. They can only be vulnerable when they're playing cards, remember? Right, exactly. And Dorothy's throwing a teacup across the room. Right, right, right. This made me really sad because, you know, she said she can give you so much more than I can. Because we're just talking about money. That's all we're talking about, you know. If that's what you think more is, yeah. Especially if you don't have it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

to Gloria about it. Yes. Right. Wouldn't it be easier? And why aren't you taking her? You're the one with the money. Yeah, exactly. She probably thinks she wants her out of here because they have been fighting. And so, you know, Sophia says, and you'll have your space. Yes. And you can sit at home on Friday night and become an

old maid like your Aunt Regina and you won't have to listen to me nag. To which I said, first of all, justice for Aunt Regina. How do we know that Aunt Regina doesn't love sitting at home by herself on a Saturday night? Listen, more and more people are seeing the amazingness of being single. Yes, totally. You know, but also I have here Sophia still on it, still won't let it go. Exactly. It's like the thing that

like needling her the most right now you know and so Dorothy just says well then I guess it's settled and Sophia says I guess so I better get back to work and then like they're trying to reconnect because you know Dorothy says Ma yeah if you need any help moving just let me know okay I'll do that

Yeah, and in that beat, they take a moment of, you know, Dorothy turns around, Ma, Sevilla's like, yeah. Like, is she going to say it? Is she going to say it? Yes. Because each one wants to say, don't go. I don't want to go. Yes. That's what they really want to say. Exactly. But they won't do it. And the final moment of the scene, the camera like does a slow zoom in on Estelle Getty's acting. And it's a sweet, sad moment. Well, I know...

you can't be in a family without knowing what this like, let's say you have a great relationship with your family. Yeah. There's going to be times where you have that fight. Yes. And you just think there's a party that's like, well, it's over. Yes. And like, I'm never going to, you just hate them or you never want to talk to them again. Or maybe it's not your experience, but it's like such a huge emotional response. Yeah. But,

in some way because you're family, like it does work out and you almost wish that could be the way it is just like in business or all friendships. It's like, you know, like it's just like, just give it a minute. Right. Let it breathe, you know? It's true. And like, as I've gotten older, I've learned that like an apology goes a long way, you know, and you don't have to apologize for everything. The other person can also be

wrong on some of the accounts. Yeah, people project their baggage, you know. Who knows? But an apology really goes a long way. It does. So we're in the kitchen. Blanche is wearing a lace robe. And whistling. And whistling. And there's fruit and cheese on the island. Yes. And she has the Macbeth script open and propped up as though she's already studying her lines. Yes, yes, yes. She's doing the character study. Right.

She's learning the motivations. Oh, yeah. So Dora the Ender is kind of with a heaviness to her, heavy heart. And I have to say this. On the kitchen wall behind the swinging door is fake hanging garlic. It looks like a ball sack sculpture. Oh, my God.

Or what we talked about here, it's just like a bunch of little titty bags. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just loved it. Oh, God. All the chach in that kitchen. It's wild. Like they re-wallpapered the kitchen, but put all the chach right back up. Still back up. Yeah. Dorothy's folded in by Rose and we have a great setup exchange. Yeah, because they're going back and forth talking about how they both have bad news. Yeah. And Blanche is like, goodness, I better sit down. And she sits down on the island stool. And then Dorothy and Rose have a little funny little fight back and forth. You go.

No, you go. No, you go. And importantly, Blanche is chopping vegetables. Keep that in mind. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. So, you know, Blanche is saying, girls, please, somebody say something so I can just become hysterical, eat a box of Malamars and get it over with. So let's go slowly through this next section, shall we, Patrick? It's so good. Rose tells Blanche... Jason called. You got a part in Macbeth, but I'm afraid it isn't the part you were hoping for. What part did I get? Witch number three. LAUGHTER

The tiniest mouth you'll ever see. Because

Because remember, she had sex with him for this part. Yeah. And in her mind, he sees her as a witch. It's a great part. It is. So fun. Oh, my God. Like, which one has a lot of lines? But I realize I'm like the creepy, crazy one. And I got to be so, like, weird. I would have given anything to see your witch number three. I was pretty good. Oh, my God. I can only imagine. So Blanche was wondering who got Lady Macbeth. And then she's like, don't tell me. Probably one of those little theater groupies with a mattress strapped to her back. Which I was like.

Blanche, you slept with the director. You literally bragged about sleeping with the director. Listen, me not thee. I know. But Rose says, no, it isn't. It's me. You're pulling my leg. He picked you over me. Listen, I hate having to tell you this. Hold on, Dad.

This is a joke, isn't it? He didn't really pick you over me. Blanche, I didn't even want the part. But Jason said I have presents. Listen, I really have to go to work. He actually picked you over me. It's me. And Blanche laughs and picks up the knife she's been using to cut the fruit and veggies and gently heads over towards Rose with a butcher knife a la Lady Macbeth. Yes, exactly.

Exactly. With the butcher knife in her hand. And then Dorothy's like, listen, I hate to have... Blanche stops her with the knife. She puts the knife against Dorothy's chest. She had sex with him to get the job. Like, it's just wild. So Dorothy can't get a word in edgewise at this point. She's trying to give her news, right? Yes, yes. And Blanche just won't let it go. Blanche is on another planet. Right. She cannot believe that this has happened. I do not believe this. I have been hired. I know. I know.

And you still didn't get the part. Bigger laugh. So good. And then, like, my other favorite moment, Blanche walks to the counter, gets the whole cookie jar. The Malamar cookie jar. The Malamar cookie jar, comes back and sits down at the table. She digs in, grabs the cookie, does not eat it. Oh, God, of course not. They never actually do any eating. No. Because she had to go back and eat it. She wouldn't have that tight little body. Exactly. So petite. So she's ready for the news. Tell me your bad news. And Dorothy does. My mother is leaving.

She's going to move in with my sister, Gloria. Oh, you're kidding. Sophia can't leave. She just can't. She's a grown woman, Rose. She can do anything she wants. But why is she leaving? Isn't she happy here? Well, I guess she thinks she'll be happier with Gloria. Well, what about us? Who's going to keep after us and make us linguine and tell us stories about Sicily? I don't know, Rose. Maybe Mary Poppins has an Italian cousin.

This is just where, like, the whole undercurrent of this section is, like, if she wants to go, there's nothing we can do about it. But, like, Blanche and Rose are saying, we are not letting her go without a fight. And so Blanche is just saying, like, what a terrible morning. Sophia's leaving us, and I'm playing an ugly old witch because you stole my part. Right.

And then I just, this is where I have to know, like, can you actually imagine Rose as Lady Macbeth? Like, can you? I would give anything to see that. Yes, I can because I can picture Betty White, but as Rose. Yeah. Like, how layered and funny that would be. I mean, ridiculous. And just the idea of Rose doing Shakespeare, like Rose speaking in iambic pentameter. I can't. Just at all would be just delicious. So Rose is sweet here to Blanche, right? I love this moment. I know. Oh, God.

Well, Ange, I know how much that part means to you. You know what I was thinking? You could go on for me one night. Well, Rose, isn't that sweet? And I do love you for it, honey, but I just couldn't. I could never fit this trim little body into that big old tent of a dress they're gonna have to make for you.

It's so savage. Oh, God. So savage. Now Dorothy enters the bedroom carrying fresh towels and is uncharacteristically angry. Yeah, right. Exactly. Because it's later in the day. Dorothy is in full nightgown. I'm glad you said later in the day. I was confused. I'm like, what time of day is it? Because Gloria's dressed in blue casual, but here's Dot again wearing some sort of high winged hip collared nightgown, right? The collar is up.

up. It's a cross between like button down flannel pajamas. The nightgowns in this series are just wild. This is like some sort of vampire collar. Yes. Something or other. The collar is up as though she's trying to do fashion. You know what I mean? I don't know. With her nightgown. I'm going to say it doesn't work. It doesn't work. So Dorothy is clearly mad. Gloria asks if she wants to talk about it. Dorothy says no and then turns on a dime and says yes. This whole episode, by the way, there's great door acting in this episode. The

The doors are, like, they're another character. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's when, this is one of those moments. Yeah. Dorothy, she goes into the bathroom door, shutting the door and reopening it. Yes. So culminating in the who is mom's favorite exchange. But like, do you want to talk about it? No. Door slam. Door open. Yes. Yes. As an audience member, you know you're about to get, like, a Dorothy monologue. Yeah. Which is exactly what happens. She says, and finally, like, this is heartbreaking.

This is what Patrick's been wanting to say all afternoon. This is what I wanted her to respond to, though. Like, even though my marriage was great and even though I have the money and even though my kids are smart and successful and yours aren't. And Dorothy says, you come here with your limo and your presents and your designer luggage and you think you're better than everybody else. You have everything. Do you have to have Ma too?

I mean, all these years you've been her favorite. All I wanted was this time with her. All these years you've been her favorite. All I wanted was this time with her. Meaning the end of her life. Yeah. It really is such a poignant thing to say. Yeah. And here we go with another door. Gloria slams the bedroom door shut and says, Dorothy, you are crazy. You're Ma's favorite. You always have been. And I want to say this to you, Patrick.

Yeah. Of all the things Dorothy just said and those accusations. Yeah. This is where I start to like Gloria. Right. Because she could have defended her all of those points. But instead, she goes to the thing that's going to heal the relationship. Yes. Which says a lot about her. And that's what I was saying earlier was that like we needed that scene of her being awful because in this scene she gets really honest. Yeah. And I like it. Yeah.

And so, you know, Gloria says, you're crazy. You're Ma's favorite. You always have been. And Dorothy's like, but you're the one that always got all the attention. And Gloria says, sure. Only because you were the strongest, the smartest. You could take care of yourself, which Ma constantly pointed out in English and Italian. It's such an interesting thing as a parent.

Because like, I only have one kid. So what do I know? But like, you know, I'm one of four and I was very self-sufficient. I didn't need a lot from my mom. And so my siblings got all the attention. And there were times that I was like, she likes them better. And just like later in life, you know, you realize like, well, no, it's just that she was spread thin and I didn't need as much. You know what I mean? It's interesting to hear these adult children with their own children reflecting on the parenting they got that made them who they are.

Exactly. You know? And Dorothy has never heard this before. Right. And never thought this of herself before. So she's like, Ma said this about me. Right. And Gloria sweetly takes her hands and then they sit on the bed. And she tells her to take a walk down memory lane, basically. She's like, well, think back, Dorothy. When we were kids, you know, our parents were working. You know, who did Ma always leave in charge? And it was her. It was Dorothy. And Gloria says, right. And do you know why? And Dorothy says... Because Phil played with matches. Poor Phil. Poor Phil.

But she's saying, no, like you were the responsible one. You know, Ma looked at you and saw a wonderful future. She looked at me and hoped I would marry rich. And then, of course, Gloria's going to Gloria. She like looks off and goes, which I did. Very rich. But, you know, I loved it. I thought it was a sweet speech. And what I liked about it, it was very self-aware. Yes. And I really have a soft spot in my heart.

for people who are self-aware. Same. And I can forgive most anything. Just own it. Right. And that's what I was saying before. It's like an apology goes a long way. Self-awareness goes a long way. That's right. And Dorothy's like wondering out loud why her mother never said any of this to her. And just like as a parent, like there are the things you take for granted that you think your kids know that you have to actually say out loud. And Gloria says she did. And she's not saying her mother said it, but she's saying it in her actions. Yes. She's like, who did she turn to whenever she's in trouble? Who did she come to live with? Her favorite, you.

Oh, come on, Gloria. That is the dumbest thing I ever heard. Dorothy, even with all my money, you have so much more than I do. You have Ma and your friends and your work and... Your life just seems so much more important than mine.

And I wanted to take a little bit back with me. This was the moment I really loved because this is where Gloria gets really honest. And she's saying, I've thought about this speech over the years. She says, Dorothy, even with all my money, you know, maybe this hit me because I grew up so poor. And I always thought that people with money were just better. And, you know, it is interesting that like she's trying to steal a little bit of Dorothy's life because she thinks that Dorothy's life is better than hers.

That's what I was getting at with like the emptiness of Gloria's life. Yeah. Sophia's going to go there and sure, like there's lots of money and people doing her laundry and whatever. But like you're just sitting around the house. You're bored. You don't have real friends. Well, listen, I have parenthetically. I like Gloria. I know. But and to you and I analyzing these scenes and what it means psychologically and emotionally, I do want to tell you this, that what we all have to learn is that happiness is within. Yeah.

Yes. Right. And what I love about this, like you, is that Gloria has realized and I've realized it in my life that the things that you think are trappings of life that you want, whether it's money or properties or success, that doesn't mean you're not going to have problems. And it doesn't mean you're not going to, you know, have to look inward to find your happiness because those things can go away. People go away. Things go away. So you have to find that

strength and joy within yourself and know that it's been there all along. I think that came up in the last episode where we were talking about how like Dorothy's resilience in being able to be around Stan. She's healed. She's recovered. She knows who she is. Yeah. I think it's really true to the character. And this is sweet. Dorothy says, you think she wants to stay? And Gloria says, I know she wants to stay. Yeah.

Yeah. So Dorothy's like, okay, I'm going to go talk to her. And she checks on her sister's heart. She's like, are you all right? Yeah. And Gloria's right back. They're like, I've got everything I need, girl. You know what I mean? And Dorothy's like, and you also have a sister who loves you. Then they make a joke like they do to get us out of the sweet moment. And pops nose. And pops nose. And I'm glad they did this because it does make you think of Sal. And you're like, does she? That's

That's a good. Totally. I love Sal. I do too. I can't wait to see him again. So Dorothy rushes to Sophia's room, which at this point I'm pretty sure does not have a bathroom. I looked to see. Okay, good for you. She declares. Ma, you're not leaving. You're staying here with Rose and Blanche and me. Hey, if I want to leave, I'll leave. I'm free, single, and 80. I'm not going to take no for an answer. You're staying. I should have known you couldn't make it without me.

You're right, I can't. And neither can Blanche and neither can Rose. Of course not, Rose. The woman can hardly find her way to work.

But Sophia insists that if she's going to stick around, there's got to be some changes. Dorothy's like, what kind of changes? And she says, you can't hang around me all the time. You need your space while I need mine. And Dorothy says, okay, Ma. And I said, like I said before, this is so real. It's a new living situation. They got to figure it out. Dorothy hangs out with her mother because she likes her, but also because she wants to take care of her and make sure that she's okay. But Sophia also does the same thing for Dorothy. There is something.

smothering going back and forth both ways. You know what's weird, though, is I didn't see the smothering of Sophia in this episode. So I'm glad you pointed out your perspective because I didn't see it that way. In fact, I was confused at first. And then what I took from this was I think this is Sophia and her version of I get it, Dorothy. Like you need space. Yeah. But that cover up that she does, like you need your space, I need

mine. Okay. And so because Dorothy's smirking, like, okay, ma, like, you know, that's how I took it. And I don't really know what it is. Well, I love that too, because it's like in any situation like this, somebody's got to give first. Yeah, you got to wave your white flag. And how many times I know I have, there have been so many times where I've waved my white flag.

And haven't gotten maybe the justice I wanted, but I chose my peace over the justice. Right. Because that's also growth is just knowing how to make your own life easier for yourself. Yeah. If it doesn't cost your soul too much, sometimes that's the better option. Yep. Been there.

So there's a knock on the door. It's Gloria. You know, Sophia tells Gloria, I just made an important decision you should know about. I've decided to stay here in Miami. And then she pulls Gloria downstage to say, I had to. She begged. It was pathetic. Gloria says, it's OK, Ma. I understand there's so much hugging and touching here and genuine warmth. I loved it. Yeah, yeah. And Sophia says, you're a good daughter, Gloria. You're both good daughters. And I love this speech because it's so true. This is so true. Most people my age have children trying to get rid of them.

My children are fighting over who gets to keep me. You don't know how much that means to an old lady. I wrote, this is so true. I can only imagine where Daisy's going to ship me when I'm Sophia's age.

Daisy, girl, take care of your daddy. Oh, God. And then, you know, they have another callback. You say comedies in threes. It's the third Phil joke. There you go. Sophia says, I love you. I love all my children. Gloria says, even Phil? And Sophia says, sure. But don't tell him. He'll want to borrow money. Now, Dorothy enters the kitchen and this is the moment we were talking about that we love. She's wearing the same purple flower sweater she wore in last week's episode. Yeah. Right.

Yep. And she says, hi, girls. And Blanche says, oh, hi, how was dinner? And Dorothy's like, great. I ate a lot. Ma drank a lot. Gloria paid a lot. Yes. And, you know, basically everyone is just really happy that Sophia is not leaving. Blanche is like this funky little lady. Sure does add life to the place. And Rose comedies in threes. Oh, and the stories she tells. And there's always a little gem of wisdom hidden. She might as well have gone hidden. One, two, three. Deep, deep, deep inside. Yeah.

So Sophia enters with presents and she says, when I was moving, I was going to give each one of you a gift, but she wants them to have them anyway. And Dorothy's the first to open hers. And she goes, oh, ma, this is so lovely. And so familiar. This is mine. I thought the cleaner lost it. And

And Sophia says, I told you the cleaner lost it. I took it. I needed something to go with my black sweater, to which Rose says, This is my black sweater. She's now opening the gift that Sophia gave her. Sophia says, I know it goes great with, Blanche says, my pearls. That Blanche is now opening the gift of her own pearls. And Sophia just goes, well, enjoy and be healthy. And she walks out. And I thought, this is a funny ending. Yeah, it's a good ending. Rose says, I wonder if she's seen my umbrella with the duck handle.

Blanche says, you know, I haven't been able to find my ankle bracelet. And Dorothea says, come on, I think it's time to search her room again. It's the again that's so funny. And then the real button is Rose pauses before going through the swinging door that got her the first time. And it's just, you know, just like Bill Murray in Ghostbusters, like, that's the one that got me. That's the door that got me. Yes. Oh, girl, amazing.

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Oh, all right, girl. Are you ready for my deep dive? I'm so excited because this feels like bonus material. I know. You know, the way you found this. Truly. Cheesecake. This is a little bit of a weird one. So my deep dive is on Phil Petrillo, who, as we know, is Dorothy's brother and Sophia's son. Something to note here just about how we're going to talk about Phil. The problem is,

pronouns are slippery. So he, she, they, I'm going to use them sort of interchangeably as they apply to the person who's talking about Phil. It was this episode and also the earlier episode where Sophia was going to visit Phil. I just was Googling to see if any smart person had ever taken the time to like write an article about Phil and turns out like lots of people have.

And lots of people have lots of ideas about Phil. And I just became kind of fascinated by it. So the first thing I did, there's a website called goldengirls.fandom.com where they have a clickable link for every character ever mentioned on the Golden Girls. Oh, well, I know what I'm doing tonight. I know. And it'll give you a link to the family tree. And it has all of their full bios as if they're real people. And it's all gleaned from like little pieces of episode. It's fascinating. It's goldengirls.fandom.com. So that's where the beginning part of this comes. Okay.

And so I know going into this deep dive that this was written and performed in the 1980s, which was a very different time. And one of the reasons why I wanted to do the deep dive was to take a look at it from a more like modern lens because, you know, the Golden Girls are timeless. And so I do want to apply sort of a modern lens to this idea from the 80s. Yeah. And Cheesecake, stick with me. The first part of this, as we're just, you're getting Phil's biography, might be a little dry, but...

When we get past that, like the sort of commentary on his existence or their or her existence is really interesting. So stick with me. So as we know, Phil is a major unseen character in the Golden Girls. He's the only son of Sal and Sophia Petrillo and the younger brother of Gloria Harker and Dorothy Zbornak.

Phil was born in 1935 in Brooklyn. We know that Sophia went into labor while Sal was at work. So Sophia gave birth in the cab on the way to the hospital, even needing the cab driver to perform an emergency C-section. But like with what? Like a ballpoint pen. Did they have ballpoint pens in 1935? Even no. Did they have cabs in 1935? A toothpick. Just ripped the door lock off. Used that. And she's like such a tiny person anyway. Like, can you imagine? That's funny, though.

A C-section. From the cab driver. Not just a delivery in the car, a C-section. That's funny. And the cab driver would just say, you know what? This is going to need to be a C-section, actually. Wait, Patrick. Ah!

Anyway. So Phil's arrival did not go over great with Dorothy. In the episode Clinton Avenue Memories, we see a 10-year-old Dorothy walk into the kitchen. She sees her parents oohing and aahing over the brand new baby. She picks up a plate and slams it down on the floor. The plate shatters into a million pieces. That's where it started. Which I was just going to say, that's kind of a lot

It's the origin story. It's the true early season one angry Dorothy energy. That's like more a middle child. Sorry. Yes. Just in lore. Don't come for me, middle children. I'm a middle child. All right. Well, don't come for me. Look, he's crawling across the table. Oh, God.

Saying, oh, she's kidding. You're a dead woman, Samard. But I mean, typically we hear that the oldest child isn't so threatened by the baby, especially when there's all, like she might've reacted that way towards Gloria and then Gloria towards, you know. Yeah, but she's real mad. And I forgot about that, but she,

Picks up a plate, slams it on the floor. Violence. All right. But her dad convinces her that the baby is not going to take her place and that they love her more than anything in the world. And ultimately, Dorothy grows to love her baby brother. We also get a moment in that episode in a flashback of learning that Sophia dresses Phil and Dorothy's hand-me-downs, which is something she thinks he'll grow out of, but he never does. Aww.

So Phil's adolescence was weird. We learned that Phil was breastfed until he was 12. And this only stopped when Phil wanted to come home at lunchtime to be breastfed. That was when Sophia turned off the tap. Okay, so he was being breastfed until 1947? I guess that's

True. Yes. Right? Yeah. At 12 years old, she's like, enough's enough. Oh, and we also learned in that episode that Phil played with matches as a child, which is why Dorothy was left in charge when the parents went out. So in 1964, Phil married a woman named Angela and the marriage was apparently arranged by Phil's parents. So Sophia and Sal, Phil was to marry Angela in exchange for a dowry of 2 million lira or 48 American dollars. Okay. Okay.

We learned that Phil's wife, Angela, and her entire family were extremely supportive of Phil, which is in stark contrast to the fact that Phil is like the butt of the joke of all the time that he's brought up between Dorothy and Sophia. Right. And it's generally thought of as like the black sheep of the Petrillo family. So one way that Angela and her family were supportive of Phil, we learned that Phil wore like a wedding dress with a plunging neckline for their wedding. Sophia was horrified, but Angela's family was very supportive and they thought that he was beautiful. Right.

Oh, my gosh. And that's really talked about. And this is in 1954. 64. 64, you said. Okay. Very progressive. They loved Phil for exactly who Phil was. Okay. So he was 29 years old. Yes. All right. We learned that Phil and Angela lived in a trailer park in New Jersey and had 10 kids over the course of their marriage, which just as an aside, remember in that early episode where Sophia going to stay with them? Yeah. And I don't think I quite realized that she was going to stay in a double wide trailer. No, nor I. In New Jersey.

See? But that's where she was headed. No wonder she came back right quick. Over the course of the series, Sophia would complain that Phil never called. And when he did, he used to pay phone and called collect. The one sweet thing we know that Phil did for Sophia every year was at Christmas, he would send her a nativity scene made out of cheddar cheese.

Though Phil and Angela, by all accounts, had a very happy marriage, in the season three episode, Golden Moments, we learn that Angela and Phil have a fight and Angela decides she needs to leave him. And Sophia decides she's got to leave the girls and go live with Phil to help him pick up the pieces. And of course, the women try to convince her to stay. But just when they're about to give up, Phil and Angela send word that they have reconciled. So in 1990, Phil has a heart attack and dies.

while trying on evening gowns at a store called Big Gals Pay Less. Dorothy gives the eulogy at his funeral, where Phil's body is laid to rest wearing a black nightie. In that same episode, Phil's wife spends a week with the ladies after the funeral, and during that time, she learns why Sophia didn't visit more, something that had really upset Phil. And at first, Sophia claims that it was because she never got the $48 dowry that she was promised, but it was really about something else.

And this is interesting because it's conservative Rose who like during the funeral is using her grief counseling skills to help Sophia get it out and process what she's really feeling. And it turns out that Sophia was really ashamed of what she called quote Phil's cross-dressing. And more than that she doesn't understand why Angela didn't do more to get him to stop doing it. And there's just

beautiful moment where super conservative Rose tells Sophia, look, Phil was a decent husband and father. He was a good provider and she shouldn't allow herself to be consumed by her shame of his differences and that there was nothing wrong for loving him for who he was. And this is like conservative Rose, like making the speech saying he was a good man. You know, there's another really interesting moment in that episode.

because it's very similar to the way the mother character felt in Torch Song Trilogy. Yeah. The mother character that Estelle Getty had played. Sophia says, I did love him, but I always wondered what I did to make him the way that he was. And the way she does it, too. And it's almost verbatim from Torch Song Trilogy. It's almost as though this part of Sophia was inspired by the character she played in Torch Song Trilogy. It's almost a direct word for word. And Angela, isn't she played by Brenda Vaccaro? Yes, that's the wife. It's Angela. Yeah. Yeah.

But Angela comes back with what he was Sophia was a good man. And the scene ends with Sophia saying, my baby is gone. So that's Phil's life story. And there's like a handful of really smart people who've just had stuff to say about the character. So I just want to share some of the more interesting commentary that I found. I found this really interesting article in Medium. It's called The Curious Case of Philip Petrillo by Dr. Thomas J. West III. It was published in June 2020 for ProPage.

pride. The article really examines the Sophia-Phil relationship, and it's fascinating. Okay. Recent. I mean, in the pandemic, just four years ago. Yeah. People think about this character. Yeah. So first of all, one of the big assumptions about Phil is that he's just a closeted,

gay guy. And as Dr. West writes, again and again, the series makes clear to the viewer that he is a man happily married to a woman with several children. There is never even an intimation that he had a sexual encounter with a man, except for one time when Sophia says, quote, they could never get him away from those gladiator movies. And even in this example, Phil was a kid and it doesn't apply anything about like his sexuality or what he'll be when he grows up.

So further to that point, in talking about the episode Ebb Tides Revenge, the one in which we find out that Phil had died, Dr. West writes, as the episode begins, Sophia remarks that she could never quite understand why Phil wore women's clothes unless she says he was queer. And Blanche gently corrects her that people don't say queer anymore. They say gay.

And Sophia says, they say gay if a guy can sing the entire score of Gigi, but a six foot three, 200 pound married man with kids who likes to dress up like Dorothy L'Amour, I think you have to go with queer. And Dr. West writes that that's a really remarkable exchange because it's true. Phil isn't gay. He is queer. And even though we'll learn that Sophia feels real guilt over, quote, whatever she did to make Phil that person.

way. This moment shows that she has a deep understanding of not only her son, but also the differences between gayness and queerness, which is really interesting. Yeah. You know what I mean? That is interesting. She understands what queer is versus gay for like an 81-year-old woman. Yeah. You know, like I think that's really interesting. And then

Like to add more layers to this moment, when we get that moment of Sofia really admitting the guilt and grief she feels after wondering what she did to make him that way, she then breaks down and says, my baby is gone. And Dr. West writes, it's especially fitting that it should be Sofia of all four of the characters who has to contend with the reality of her own guilt.

Of all the women, she's been the most outspoken in her support of queer people. She tells Dorothy that she would support any of her children if they were to come out as gay. She accepts Dorothy's friend, Gene, as part of the family. She even supports gay marriage when Blanche can't bear the thought of her brother Clayton marrying another man. To see her struggle with her own son's queerness highlights the fact that even those who seem to be the most accepting have certain lines that it remains difficult to cross.

Right? Like, how many parents... I had so many friends who would come out as gay and expected their family to be, their parents to be so accepting because their parents were accepting. And it was fine. I mean, I can think of one person in particular. It was fine for anybody else to be gay, but not their kid. And it just took a lot of adjusting to. It's like a form of... I compare it to nimbyism. You know, like, not in my backyard. Right. You know, it's just me not...

Not thee. Right. Exactly. And so Dr. West says rather than condemn her, however, this series allows her to come to terms with her grief and with the regret that she didn't spend more time with her son when she had the chance. It's also interesting. I want to just jump in here. Yeah. Just from a character study of Sophia as well. Like she's also the most acerbic and flippant and joke telling. So any chance we get to see Sophia that vulnerable is all that much more affecting. Yeah.

Yeah. I know. Really, like, I watched the scene today, and it's like, it's one thing to read the script of the speech, but then to see Estelle Getty do it, it's very powerful. I mean, we never see Sophia go there. I mean, it's so rare that she has those touching moments. And she has so—she knows that character. She lived in that character for four years when she was doing Torch Song, you know? Yeah. And I just—I love this storyline, especially after our interview with Stan Zimmerman, where we found out that Estelle was running around the set telling all the gay people she saw—

that their secret was safe with her. And she's the one who gets to have this storyline where she sort of like thought she was really open-minded and progressive and then she realizes she has her own biases and then like comes to terms with it all in one episode and gets to be that like loving and accepting character. And like you said, her own insecurity, her own inadequacy. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. So the final topic to discuss with Phil is was she...

She actually a trans lesbian woman. And there's a great podcast called The Gayest Episode Ever, which discusses all the queer episodes of your favorite TV shows. It's a great podcast. They did a whole episode on this featuring a trans woman doctor named Dr. Ada Rhodes Short. And she has her own podcast called The Totally Trans Podcast. So she did this podcast with Gayest Episode Ever.

And she firmly believes that Phil is a trans lesbian woman. And in Dr. Rhodes' version of Phil, Phil spells her name with a Y. So it's P-H-Y-L. And she uses she, her pronouns. So Dr. Rhodes says, Phil didn't dress as a woman sometimes. She lived her life as a woman to the point that she got married in a wedding dress, which is played as a joke. But if you take the comedy out of it,

Phil got married in a wedding dress the way a trans woman who liked wearing dresses would. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, I do. Just living as a person who is a woman who likes wearing dresses. Like, Phil is never described in men's clothing ever. He's always described as wearing women's clothes. He's always dressed as a woman. So the common logic is

he's living as a woman, right? Also, Phil is sometimes described as a cross-dresser, but Dr. Short points out the clothes belonged to Phil. So a cross-dresser doesn't work. The clothes didn't belong to some other person or some other gender. Listen, I'm talking about, we don't say queer anymore, we say gay. Like that's a lexicon from the 80s too. Like, I mean, cross-dressing, that's the term you used, you know? The language is very important. There's like the whole, the word transvestite that we don't use anymore. That's right, right. The community sort of reclaimed the word queer.

Dr. Rhodes also describes the significance of Phil never being seen. She says that allows you to picture Phil as you want to see her. She says that a lot of people probably imagine a buffoonish looking man in a dress, but we know that Phil really cared about her clothes. So she probably had beautiful clothing. And we also know that Angela, her wife, was a makeup artist. So she probably had like incredible makeups.

So, you know, Dr. Short imagines Phil to be this like beautiful, glamazon female presenting woman. So in season six, episode 12, the one we were just talking about, Ebtide's Revenge, this is the episode in which the ladies all go to Phil's funeral where Dorothy is to give the eulogy. And Dr. Rhodes says that Phil has a very trans experience in death where the straight people in her life take over and make all the decisions without any regard or even discussion about what Phil might have wanted. Yeah.

None of the extended family attend the funeral, even though they've all been established as characters in previous episodes. Like Sister Gloria is not there. Neither of Dorothy's children are there. Sophia's sister Angela isn't there. Phil's friends from home make an appearance in the episode. They are presumably other trans women, but they are completely covered. You just see big bodied people walking over to the casket and they are covered in veils and drapes. You don't see their faces at all, showing that the people that were closest to Phil are

at his funeral felt very othered and very uncomfortable. And even the fact that Phil's wife, Phil's life partner, loses control over how to tell Phil's story after her death as seen by the fact that Dorothy is asked to give the eulogy and not her. Dorothy refers to Phil as a man. And Dr. Rhodes describes all of this as tragically relatable. I have to jump in there, though. Yeah. There is a practical...

reason to all of this. And it's just that the making of television shows, like you can't have all these guest stars come back, just like, you know, realistically the money. And again, like covering people is a lot easier than making people up. Right. But I just think it's interesting that Dr. Rhodes is saying, imagine this is

Yes, okay.

more prevalent and people be able to really identify and understand what that was. There is the idea that maybe Phil really was a trans person and maybe not, but it really is an interesting conversation. It's fascinating to talk about. Yeah. You know, I know when we get to Ebti's Revenge that it's episode 12 of season six. I know I'll have a lot more to say about this then. Yeah. Because we're

will feel a lot more lived in this series. And I think we'll have a better idea of the characters. Yeah. But I think it's really interesting to get online and see how seriously people take the character of Phil. Well, yeah. And again, I love that we're doing a deep dive on a character that we never actually see. Yes. Because my first thought of like, okay, and which actor played Phil? Right. Exactly. And you feel like Phil could get their own one woman show. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like Stan Zimmerman was saying to us that he wanted to do, you know, Estelle Getty's one woman show. I'm like, someone could do Phil, P-H-Y-L. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

Cheesecakes, thank you for listening. I know that was kind of a weird one, but I was really so fascinated to read all those articles. I don't think it was weird. No? No! I know that was a totally normal one, Cheesecakes. Well, talk about being part of the canon. I know. It's true. I mean, that is a deep dive that is deserved. Cheesecakes, please

join the Facebook group. It's the Golden Girls Deep Dive podcast discussion group. We've got over 2,000 people in there. We're hanging out. We're making friends. We're talking about the episodes. We're just loving on the Golden Girls. Yeah, and if you've got a suggestion or something to say, write us at our email at info at goldengirlsdeepdive.com.

Steve will make sure that we see it. Cheesecakes, one more thing before we go. We're doing our first ever Cheesecake Virtual Happy Hour on Wednesday, September 11th at 7 p.m. Eastern. So that's 7 p.m. Eastern Cheesecakes. Grab whatever bevy that you want. It can be alcoholic. It can

No. Yeah, it can be whatever you want. We're going to drop the link to the Zoom in the Facebook group on the 11th at like 6.50 p.m. Eastern. Yeah. And then we're just going to hang out for like an hour and just like we'll highlight you. You can ask us questions. Are we going to do like an AMA? Yeah, it'll be like an AMA. Maybe we'll have questions for you. It's going to be so much fun.

fun. Yeah, that'd be fun. Yeah. So if you haven't joined the Facebook group, just go do that. So you'll be reminded it's the Golden Girls Deep Dive podcast discussion group. And we'll see you for drinks on Thursday the 11th. Cheers. Yeah. And lastly, follow us on the TikTok and the Instagram if you want to see the funny moments that we recorded in these episodes. Erin makes these beautiful videos. They're very funny and they're very Golden Girls-y. And you're very Golden Girls-y. Back at you, Mother Cheesecake. Love you, Papa Cheesecake. Love you. And we love you, Cheesecakes. And we'll see you next week. Bye.