Take Him, He's Mine! (Season 2 Episode 3)
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Cheesecakes, Patrick here. I am so excited to tell you that I've added 10 cities to my storytelling party tour. So in addition to the cities you already know about, in March and April, I'll be coming to Dallas, Austin, Houston, Portland, San Francisco, Phoenix, Detroit, Cleveland, Columbus, and Cincinnati. And those tickets are on sale right now at PatrickTours.com.

In case you have no idea what I'm talking about, Cheesecakes, I'm inviting you to come to the show and stay for the party. So for the first part of the evening with me, I'm telling you a hilarious story about a disastrous night I spent with Golden Girls icon...

Bea Arthur. I loved her, she hated me, but she needed me, and hilarity ensued. I have a wonderful drag performer playing Bea Arthur from Beyond the Grave via video to tell her side of this ridiculous story. It is hilarious and ridiculous, and my show part is just under an hour long. So

So then for the second part of the evening, we all go to the bar. It's a cash bar and we drink and we hang out and we make new friends and it is going to be so much fun. And do not be afraid to come alone. We've made special stickers for solo travelers to wear if you're looking to make new friends. And we have other stickers for people who came in a group but want to invite solo travelers to hang out with their group.

It's going to be an amazing night of laughing our butts off and making new friends. And I cannot wait to meet every single one of you. So once again, grab your tickets right now at PatrickTours.com. And I cannot wait to see you on the road.

Jennifer Simard. Hi, Patrick Hines. Oh, Cheesecakes, it's so good to be with you. How are you doing, girl? I'm doing great. A couple things before we start. Oh, Mother Cheesecake is taking us right in. I am. Talk to me, girl. This is more for Aaron and the video features, but number one, I'm not wearing any makeup today. Get over it. But what I am wearing, I specifically put in contacts and my readers because maybe a lot of people know this. You put on reading glasses, they're jewelry for your face, and they cover up the bags under your eyes.

Also, this leopard print blouse I'm wearing, it's a day two wear. I wore this yesterday. I don't care. And number three, Patrick just came in with his water in a beer stein. It's in a beer stein. Why don't you show the cheesecake? It's straight vodka. Like, for all we know, it's straight freaking vodka. So that's how I'm doing. Look, you look like a million bucks.

Steven, our friends Robbie and Len saw your show last night. They just came home gay screaming about it. Gay screaming. We like that. We love that. How are you doing? I'm doing really well. A couple of things, Cheesecakes. The Facebook group is growing. I think we've got almost 5,000 people in there now. Dreams. We would love for you to join. It's the Golden Girls Deep Dive Podcast Discussion Group. Yeah, we leave little videos and comments and all the cheese kooks. I've started to call them cheese kooks. The cheese kooks. That's not going to stay.

stay. I love it. You know, my kooky sense of humor. So anyway, people leave all kinds of things in there. I love it. It's amazing. People are making friends. I'm posting about my tour in there. There's so much like fun information. Just get in there and make friends. And also, if you're like me and kind of introverted, you can just be a lurker. You can lurk. Oh, I have to tell you, our Facebook moderator, Sasha, wants me to remind the cheesecake. You must answer all three questions. There's three questions to get in. It's like, what are the name of the hosts? What's the last episode you listened to? And like some other easy thing. If you don't answer the question, she's not going to let you in. Wow. Sasha's rulesy.

Okay, well, follow the rulesies. Follow the rulesies. All right. Girl, what are we talking about today? This is season two, episode three, Take Him. He's Mine. Great title. That's really good. Yeah, written by Kathy Spear and Terry Grossman. I just have to stop here. Please. To these writers. Yeah. This is going to be my through line throughout the episode. Okay. I didn't realize it until later when I had this word over and over and over again. Okay. I'm going to call this episode God Damn It. Oh.

Because so many of their jokes, I was just like, God damn it, that's good. I know. God damn it, that's good. I love, there's a lot of good like Rose non sequitur jokes in here that I love. I mean, we'll get there. We'll get there. We'll get there. We'll get there. This episode is directed by another Terry, Terry Hughes. Yep. The original air date was October 11th, 1986. Now, Cheesecakes, one of the things we do here, how this works, right, is we do a fun, hilarious recap, but we give you little deep dives throughout and-

at the end, we give you a full research deep dive on something from the Golden Girls universe. And so one of the things in our research packet that I saw was this week in the year 1986, Late Night with Joan Rivers premiered on Fox. She was the first woman to ever host a late night talk show. And I was going to do a mini ditty on it, but then we decided that that should get its own full deep dive. Yeah, we have a few people in this episode that deserve full deep dives. We talked about earlier Suzanne Somers. Yes. She's not in it, but she's mentioned. Right. Lionel Richie. I mean, their accolades are just

Too long. Too long. To go into in a mini-ditty way. Plus, like, Joan Rivers is like an icon of ladies in comedy, just like our ladies on the show. I think it totally works. So we're doing the full deep dive on Joan Rivers at the end of this episode. Exactly. And I will say this about Ms. Joan and Ms. Suzanne. One of the things I love that they share in common is how when you're a woman, groundbreaking as they did. Yes. Boy, oh boy. They got a lot of bullshit. Well, we're going to learn Joan Rivers got fired from her late night talk show like a year into it. Listen, women, don't be uppity. I know.

Don't be difficult. Know your place. Know your place. I mean, that's a joke. Oh, they know. They know. Good Lord. You know what? I'd like to say it's changed, but it still happens. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. I know

So we begin in the kitchen. Sophia is sitting at the table doing math out loud in a way that nobody ever does. That's right. She literally says, carry the one. That's right. She approaches Rose, who is ironing those damn coral napkins. I know. Remember those? Yeah. Rose is wearing a bright yellow sweater. Right. Sophia's in like a cute purple nightgown. Sophia, we are getting much more Sophia nightgown action lately. Yeah, it's true. And this

was a bit rainbow striped. Oh, yes. Sort of, kind of. Yes, yes. But I love that, like, we finally have, I feel like one day somebody's like, she's an old lady, she would be in her nightgown all the time. That's true. I will say, we bypassed this, but I want to say, we opened, if you recall, on a not-off-used shot of the house from the side. Oh, yeah, the side shot. Highlighting the fence of Lanai. I can't say it. Lanai. Lanai.

That's my first goddammit of the episode, but not in the way I intended. I wanted to just say, Sophia is pitching a new business venture to Rose. If the world of the show were a real timeline, it was just last week that they decided that they could not do the mink business. Remember? Yeah. Like, these ladies must be really strapped for cash because they had to get all of those minks unloaded somehow. Except for Dorothy, as we'll find out later, who has Chanel and cashmere sweaters. I know.

Well, we do learn in this episode that Stan is paying alimony. I clocked that. Maybe she's got a little bit more money than we thought. Maybe she does, yeah. But I love that this business venture that Sophia is pitching, it's a sandwich-making business. So what do you say? Are we partners or what? Well, the idea of making extra money appeals to me, but why the sandwich business? Because we don't have enough counter space to make kidney machines. So are we partners or what?

I love that Sophia's response to that is like, dummy, that's why I'm asking you. Like, Sophia wants to be the boss. She does not want people with other ideas. Oh, yeah. Also, can you, like,

See, I do think that Blanche would be a boon to the business. I think if we're at a construction site and Blanche is walking around with those bosoms and the sandwiches, you know what I mean? Sorry. Yes, those perky breasts of hers. Those perky breasts. That's right. So just then, Dot enters wearing a signature look, a green and purple satin top over pants with her shoulder implant surgery. Like, those are huge, right? I mean...

There are certain moments, she's like, this outfit is iconic. It's like the green, I call it like the green suit. It's like the green pants, the green jacket. There are certain moments when she's like sitting on the couch or when she turns to yell at Blanche that you see the enormity of the shoulder pads. Yeah. The absolute enormity. It's like they put football helmets underneath. Yeah.

I mean, this is the 80s, people. This was it. Totally. That is exactly what it looks like. I mean, the shoulder pads are so big. She said, okay, how do I look? We just should have called her shoulders, really. Good old shoulders born act. And Sophia, mean as ever. And I just keep thinking of you, Patrick. Like, what is this table read like? Good Lord. Okay, how do I look?

The outfit's nice. Now go put some makeup on. Ma, I'm wearing makeup. Make sure you eat by candlelight. That's a funny joke, but it's especially funny now with all of our HDTVs because you can see that Bea Arthur has her face beat for the gods. Right. She's wearing so much

much makeup. Would you ever talk, like, if your mother spoke to you that way, would you just disown a bitch? Listen, I love my mother. The most she had to say about my appearance that way is she preferred my hair up. Okay.

Because you really see my jawline. Oh, you've got a great jawline. Thank you so much. The head of my wig department also likes my hair up. And act two, about halfway through, it does go in an updo. He much prefers my hair up. I do have great bone structure. All of this is like making me really think about Daisy, my 10-year-old daughter, has really started to like pose for pictures. Oh, sure. Like she's gone from not wanting her picture taken to like hands.

under the chin. Does she have a side yet? She has a side and today she beveled for the first time. Great. Always the downstage leg, Daisy. Oh my God. Today's formal day at her school. It's like spirit weekend. She wore a princess dress, lip gloss. She insisted on wearing her hair down. She did her nails. She wore sparkly kitten heels. Okay. Like my baby. Your baby.

Baby. Do you need a moment? Do we need to pause? I made a TikTok about it because I was like, it was literally just one minute ago that we were dressing her as Elvis Presley for her first Halloween because she had so much hair. Right. She had this like mop of black hair that we just coiffed up and she, and that little Elvis baby costume. And now she's going as Priscilla. I know.

Yeah. Oh, that's wonderful. Oh, my God. But like, I don't know, like Little Buttercup, I do have a nice jawline. You do. Didn't they call Blanche Buttercup at some point? I think Big Daddy did. Her dad probably did. You know. Inappropriately. Inappropriately so. And the other thing my mother would say was she did not like me in red lipstick. Really? Too whorish. Because, well, you'd think. Probably. Little 17-year-old virgin slut that we know that I was. But I mean...

But in addition to that jawline that she liked to see, not too much because the red lips really overemphasize that strong jaw. Yeah.

Oh, my God. But she would never have insulted me like this. Good Lord. Not to mention, again, the poor actress Bea Arthur. You know, she must have just been so sick of this. But what is amazing is she's all dressed up because she's got a date tonight. I'm telling you, Dorothy can get it. I have this here, too. She dates more than anybody else. I have this here. She's doing just fine. Oh, Dorothy, you look lovely. You really do. Lovely isn't good enough. She's got a date with Jeffrey the Commodore. He's a Commodore in the name?

No, Rose. The singing group. He's the one in the middle. Used to be on the end till Lionel Richie left. You and Jeffrey have been spending a lot of time together. Oh, yes. You know, just when I'd given up hope of meeting someone, along came the most gallant, sophisticated, charming man I'd met in ages. And I bet he knows how to tie a lot of really neat knots. Yes.

He's a Commodore. I had to look up what that was. It's a high-ranking naval or Coast Guard officer. Yes. It was also a singing group to which Lionel Richie belonged. And we'll do a deep dive on him later. I don't want to skip this, though, because I have it in big caps. You're going to love this. Dorothy hands a scarf that does not match her outfit to Rose. Uh-huh. To Iron. And I'm like, Clinton Kelly, please help Dorothy. I know. I know.

I know. She's going to wear that scarf on her date with that outfit. What are you doing? I know. Now, we don't have to be matchy-matchy, but girl, girl. Girl. We did an interview with Clint Kelly from What Not to Wear. He's like a big Golden Girls deep dive super fan. We're obsessed with him. And this was one of the outfits we asked him to sort of critique. And he had a lot of really interesting things to say about it. You can go back a few episodes and listen to it. That's right. My note here is Dorothy can really get it. We need to keep track of the number of guys that she's dating. She might actually be the town bicycle.

That is a joke for my husband, Steve Tipton. And referring to somebody that we know, refer to this person as the town bicycle, as if to say, I had to ask him 7,000 questions about this. Does that expression come from the fact that like there actually was at one point a thing called the town, like there was a one bicycle that everyone in town rode? Are you asking me? I'm asking you. I have no fucking clue. Okay.

I have no, I don't know. Have you ever heard that expression before? No. To describe a loose person? No. Okay. Did he make it up or had he heard it? No, but he said the expression of the town bicycle like it was something I should know what it was. Okay. My jaw hit the table and I had 7,000 questions. Great. Well, I'm going to say this is why he's the graham cracker crust. I know. And not the cheesecake. Because it works. It works. But leave the jokes to us.

Leave it to us, Steve. Get out of here, tips. Get out of here. Get out of here. So Jeffrey the Commodore, he's in the Navy. We don't know how they met, but he's like this amazing guy, right? And I was like, how did she meet him and Blanche didn't get her hooks into him? Well, speaking of Blanche, she enters and she says...

Dothi. Dothi? Guess who's here? And I have D-A-H dash U-T-H-Y. Dothi. Wait, do you know the episode where they have to vote one of the roommates out? Do you remember this episode? I mean, I can't even answer that with a straight face. We all remember it. They're pulling the names out of the bag and she's reading them. Dothi. The last one. Dothi. I can't. No, that's not even a good impression. She's like, Dothi, Dothi, Dothi, Dothi.

It is so good. Oh, my God. So she comes in looking lovely in a light gray nightgown and robe. But I want to point out, she does not have a date tonight. She's in a nightgown and robe because she, unlike popular town bicycle Dorothy, does not have a date tonight. That's how much Dorothy can get it. You know, I stand corrected, Steve. I'm really getting into the town bicycle. Can you be a writer on our show?

The town bicycle. The town bicycle. Oh, God. That tisket a tasket. A bicycle with a basket. So Blanche is here to announce, Dorothy, guess who's here? Guess who's here? My date. Your husband. I don't have a husband. Call the police. Your ex-husband. I'll call the police. Hi, everyone. It's me, Stan. Hi.

Dorothy. And so it's Stan. Stan has come. He really needs to talk to Dorothy. And he has his signature, sort of. He says, hi, everyone. It's me, Stan. Yes. He's saying that by the swinging door into the kitchen. Right. And Blanche tries to slam the door on him. That's right. Which will become the signature. Hello, it's me, Stan. And Dorothy closes the door. Right. So it's Dorothy's husband slash ex-husband slash Patrick's boyfriend. Yes. And I got to tell you, Stan can get it in this episode. Maybe a little later. I have a question for you. But in this moment, I have

to say, both Stan and Blanche here look a little bit to me like they do earlier in season one. I don't know. I'm not loving Stan's very dark hair and stache here. I don't know. I like the suit, though. He's wearing like a pink suit with like a pink pattern shirt. I do like that Stan typically dresses up to leave the house. Uh-huh, yeah. You know what I mean? Sure. He's that guy that on a flight is wearing a nice casual suit. Oh, look.

Right? Yeah. Definitely annoying everybody to get bumped up to first class. You know what I mean? Oh, sure, sure, sure, sure. Sitting in economy. Well, isn't he well-dressed? Let's give seersucker 2A. 2A.

Blanche is annoyed that Dorothy didn't give her more notice that a gentleman was coming over. In the future, I would appreciate a little advance notice when you're expecting a gentleman. I realize this time it's only Stan, but next time it could be somebody appealing or charming or at least reasonably good looking. No offense, Stan.

I'm taken. To this query, I'm like, how about the answer is no, because we literally pay all your house repairs. Totally. We are paying a maintenance fee for this rental. Right, exactly. You know what I mean? Exactly. Stan needs to talk to Dorothy. They're about to go into the living room. Sophia takes a jab at Stan, and she says, You bring your wife with you, or did you make her stay home and clean out her toy box? LAUGHTER

Ma, don't you remember? I told you. Stan and Chrissy got a divorce. I thought you said Stan and Chrissy got a horse. I'm 80. You gotta enunciate. Don't get me wrong. Horse, divorce. I could care less. I just hate being left with egg on my face.

I've got a lot of questions about Stan in this episode because it's like, does he live in Miami now? We'll get there. We'll get there. But we see that long shot of I have either an apartment building or a hotel. Well, we're told it's a hotel because I looked into that. But it just it's like, Stan, you lived in Maui and now you're here all the time. So I think you're. But before we move on. Yeah, I do have a mini deep dive on egg in my face. Egg in your face or egg on your face?

I have a mini deep dive on egg on my face. All right. I wanted to know where this came from. So we, Jess and I, the researcher, we looked it up. So nobody knows for sure the origin of the expression, but it's known to be an American idiom. Here are some thoughts as to where it comes from. Some scholars say it comes from the ancient practice of throwing rotten eggs at bad actors on stage. I feel attacked.

Would you have been in the profession if you were at risk of having eggs thrown at you from the audience? And we're big on audience etiquette at this point. Sure. Turn off your goddamn cell phones and don't talk. You know what I mean? Listen. Let alone don't throw eggs at the actors. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not sure where fiscally I would fall into this. Like, do I have to be an actor? Right. Or do I choose to be an actor? Uh-huh, uh-huh. I'm going to say I probably would have done it, and I probably would have thrown those eggs right back at those bastards. Right.

I would have kept my own egg stash. Yes. All right. Well, that's one thought. Others point to the fact that having actual egg stashes

egg on your face for having not properly cleaned yourself up enough after eating breakfast was apparently a major social gaffe in the early 20th century. So having literally egg on your face like you were thought to be slovenly and maybe that's where it comes from. Others say, get this, it was an expression coined by Alfred Hitchcock on his film sets in the 1940s. Quote, when Hitchcock says an actor has egg on his face, he means the actor has a vaguely embarrassed expression caused by too long a period without lines or a lag in action.

I also feel attacked. Totally. So some people believe that he was the first person to ever say it and therefore single-handedly invented the phrase. Oh, geez. I want to do more research on this now. So Dot and Stan go to the living room and they sit on the couch. I have the note here. It's not until Dorothy sits down that you really see the angle that shows off how big the shoulder pads are. Just unbelievably huge shoulder pads. And she says, all right, Stan, what's wrong? And he says, what's wrong with your shoulders? I know.

No. Stan says, All right, Stan, what's wrong? What makes you think there's something wrong? Oh, please, Stan, we were married for 38 years. You can disguise your bald head, but you can't hide your emotions. Now, what's wrong? I lost it, Dorothy. You never had it, Stanley. No.

The business. 22 years of sweat and blood and suddenly it's all flushed down the toilet like a snotty ball of Kleenex. You could always write poetry for a living. This is just a great line and a great delivery because Dorothy, like, looks away and says, you never had it, Stanley. Yeah. Like, it's so funny and so well done. Yes. The look away. Yes. Well, the look away is to the studio audience, to which they applaud. Yes. Yes.

It's so good. And he was a generous partner here, too, because he kept his head buried in his hands. Yes. I love what it says, too, that Dorothy, she's like in a really good mood and she doesn't give a shit about this guy because she's got this date with this awesome man in 20 minutes. That's right. She's going to give Stan two minutes of her time and then she's getting on with her life. Yeah. Which she only has because he...

left her for a 28-year-old flight attendant. That's right. You know? But he lets her know that, you know, he's lost the business. He doesn't know what he's going to do. But these are all of my questions, right? Like, what is the business? What does he do? Is it based out of Miami? How are you running your Miami-based business from Maui all those years? I know. I know. Is it based out of New York? I mean, did he open the antique business? I don't know. Because this was

like long before the era of like being able to work remotely you know what I mean like exactly like what is the business that you've had for 22 years in Miami again this is the the Raiders of the Lost Ark Lost Golden Girls show bible totally where is the show where's the show bible I know because also it's like is she a partner in the business did she help build the business like what did you do to lose the business I'm telling you it's in that Raiders of it's with the it's with the our

of the Covenant somewhere. She reacts to the way he's described it as you could always write poetry for a living. But she says, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I know how devastated you must be. I have one question, though. Yeah. And this is where he says, I can still manage the alimony, which I was really glad to hear that Dorothy's getting alimony. Yeah, we never knew that. We never knew it because we thought she was just living on her substitute teacher salary and she's paying both rents for her and her mom. Plus all of those added common charges that Blanche adds every month. That's right.

Those are legally added common charges. We don't know what the lease they agreed to. They don't know. We don't know. We don't know. But, you know, Dorothy's like, listen, I want to be here for you essentially, but can we talk about it tomorrow? I have plans to go out tonight. Yes. And Stan says, please, I'm afraid to be alone. I don't know what I might do is what he gets to. So my whole

thing is, A, this guy's got some fucking nerve after being the guy to walk out on her after 38 years. She's got a date tonight, which she's clearly dressed for. You're going to come over here and badger this woman to spending the night with you because you're having a bad day when you fucking ruined her life. Exactly. And now you're threatening suicide. Exactly. Do you have any guy friends you could go out for beer, Stan? Stan does not strike me as a person who has a large social circle. You know what I mean? I mean, how fucked up is that?

is that? That he's going to come over? Oh, it's extremely fucked up. And if you think back to the beginning of the

the way in which he left her but this is what I love too we're gonna get there in a second but when she does tell the gals she does feel bad for him yeah and I love that because she's obviously uh moved on in her healing she doesn't wish him ill will uh-huh you know um I can relate to that like you get to a point where you just no hard feelings and that's where she but like you know I've moved on right I love that you feel that way because I was kind of like are we do we love that she has empathy for him or do we hate that she's making this her problem you know what I mean no I well I

I can't speak for everyone. And I think depending on the circumstances and where you are in your healing, it's to each his own. And, you know, one day you could feel one way and one day you could feel another. Yeah. You know, I can relate to that. But I will say that I kind of loved it and found empathy because what it means to me is I want her to heal. And it's, you know, the less impassioned you are about the situation, the more you can

tends to lead me to believe that you're not as much pain. Yes, I love that. And she definitely, I mean, I think that her hot date with this like super successful Navy guy is also helping her not be so angry because she's got this great thing going on. Yeah, exactly. So Dorothy finally relents and she's like, you know, hang on a second, stay here. And I'm thinking, oh my God, she's going to cancel her date. No, she goes into the kitchen and she's telling the other girls, she's like begging them, like, can one of you hang out with Stan tonight? I've got this hot date that I'm not going to cancel. And please, can one of you just go do it?

So she kind of goes to Rose. I do it, Dorothy, but I'm really no good at listening to people's problems. Rose, you're a grief counselor. It's what you do for a living. I know, but I have the highest suicide rate in the office. Look, Rose, if you don't want to go out with Stan, just say so. I don't want to go out with Stan.

Like, the thing about that is if you think about the reality of that joke, people in crisis are coming to see Rose. Rose is saying whatever she's saying is making it so much worse that they go home and kill themselves. But comedy is, we've discussed this, it's also letting the audience fill in the gaps.

Totally. Although this is a suicide joke. So take this with a grain of salt. And I guess trigger warning, not everyone's going to find this funny. But what I do appreciate about the joke in and of itself is that because we know Rose. Yes. She's probably gone into some St. Olaf story. And unlike the women that she lives with who can just bear through it, these people who are on the verge of suicide decide to do it.

likely after hearing this. Are you just realizing this now, Patrick? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the St. Olaf story that tipped them over the edge to say, you know what? It's not worth it. It's as bad as I thought. It is as bad as I thought. Well, Rose is out. So now Dorothy is turning back to Blanche. And I love that Blanche's big reason for not wanting to help Dorothy is because she just wants to punish Dorothy for having a date tonight. Oh, yeah. And her not. Exactly. Narcissistic

Blanche after all. Yeah. And so Dorothy turns to bribery. I'll let you borrow my cashmere sweater anytime you want. No. I will give you outright, outright, my practically full bottle of Chanel No. 5. Perfume or cologne? Cologne. Forget it. And I love this next delivery. This delivery is so desperate. I'll give you outright, outright, my practically full bottle of Chanel No. 5. She says it twice. Why are

story that you're wearing cologne. I don't want to get this wrong, Cheesecakes, but my understanding is the perfume is the highest concentration and the most expensive. Got it. Okay, great. Yeah. I wasn't expecting you to have an answer to that, Mother Cheesecake. Yeah, unless they're conflating men's cologne with eau de toilette spray. I do know for women that perfume and eau de toilette spray. Eau de toilette is the grossest thing I've ever heard you say. It just smells like human poop is what I'm thinking. Eau de toilette. You know what? Can we get, can

Can we get underwear one day that say Eau de Toilette for the cheesecake? Do you remember one of the deep times when we learned that the guy who invented the toilet's name is Crapper? I do remember. He was named before the toilet was invented. You know what I mean? I do. And I remember how Rosen Island you were in your shock and awe. I was. It's still there. I'm looking at you right now. You're full Hufflepuff right now. But they were calling the toilet the Crapper. Look at him. The Crapper. Look at him. His name is Crapper. He revolutionized the toilet.

Look at my sweet Hufflepuff. So excited. All right. So Dorothy finally plays the trump card. I'll introduce you to all of Jeffrey's naval officer friends. Some of them have been at sea for more than six months. Just make yourself comfortable, honey. I'll be with you in two minutes.

She walks into the living room and she says to Stan, just make yourself comfortable, honey. I'll be with you in two minutes. That's it. That did it. That's all it takes. What is... Dax, are you... Tracking all our cars on Carvana Value Tracker? On all our devices? Yes, Kristen. Yes, I am. Well, I've been looking for my phone for... In Dax's domain, we see all. So we always know what our cars are worth. All of them? All of them.

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Hey, I'm Ben Stiller. I'm Adam Scott. And we make a TV show called Severance. On January 17th, Severance is back for season two on Apple TV+. And we can't wait for you guys to see it. And before the premiere, Ben and I are going to be binging season one and putting out daily recap podcasts. Yep. Each weekday beginning January 7th, we'll be dropping an episode featuring exclusive behind-the-scenes tidbits and brilliant insights from our cast and crew and us.

Patricia Arquette, Britt Lauer, Zach Cherry, John Turturro, the list goes on. All your favorite Lumen employees, their friends, families, enemies, in your feed every single weekday. And here's the best part. After that, we're going to keep going. Tune in weekly as we recap every episode of Season 2. The podcast drops on the same day the episode comes out.

It's the Severance Podcast with Ben and Adam on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, or wherever you get your podcasts.

So next scene, we're in the kitchen. Rose and Sophia are making sandwiches for their sandwich making business. Now, this bit is iconic to me. Is this iconic to you? It is. They're making bacon, lettuce and potato sandwiches. Not the famous tomatoes. I guess there was a shortage or they're too expensive. Or like she just they were out of them and Sophia didn't want to go to the grocery store. So like Sophia is saying to Rose, you just got to say it fast. Use these potatoes. We're out of tomatoes.

Sophia, I don't think this will work. Yes, it will. We just say it fast. Bacon, lettuce, and potato. Bacon, lettuce, and potato. Bacon, lettuce, and potato. Bacon, lettuce, and potato. I got to hear you say it. And it's also really hard to do. Yeah. Bacon, lettuce, and potato. Bacon, lettuce, and potato. Bacon, lettuce, and potato. And I found out later that they really emphasize the quick part on the potato. They don't want people to hear the potato. Right, right, right, right. Bacon, lettuce, and potato. Bacon, lettuce, and potato. My other thing, too, is what kind of potato? Is it softened in any way, or is it just sliced, hard, uncooked potato? Okay.

Oh, that would be even better. You know what I mean? How hideous. When Steve and I were on vacation in some country somewhere, like 20 years ago, I don't remember where we were. We went to like their version of a fast food restaurant and it was a fried potato sandwich. It wasn't good. It was fried potato between two pieces of bread with some mayonnaise. I thought it was going to be delicious. It wasn't. Wow, how white.

White bread, starchy white. I know. Today we're going to eat all white food. Totally. Mayonnaise, white bread, potatoes. But Dorothy comes in and we now know the timeline because it's after midnight. Yes. Same night. And they are still up. Yes. Yes. And this is where they tell Dorothy that they're going into business together. Yes. And Dorothy knows her mother. And she's like, how did she talk you into this, Rose? This is such a good line.

Uh-huh. And Rose says, Oh, Sophia didn't talk me into it. As she said, if I had half a brain, I'd have thought of it myself. LAUGHTER

The way that Dorothy reacts to that, she receives it and she just looks away. Oh, yeah. It's so good. Oh, yeah. And then Rose goes into her Belgian waffle stand story she sold as a kid. Yes. They weren't really Belgian waffles. They were English muffins that she like cut little ridges in or whatever. And she said she got away with it because she was cute. And Sophia says, don't worry, you get cute again at 80. How do you think I'm going to peddle this slop?

Bacon, lettuce, potato. No, you didn't say fast enough. Do it again. Bacon, lettuce, potato. Bacon, lettuce, potato. Say bacon, lettuce, potato on the Lanois. Bacon, lettuce, potato on the Lanois. They asked Dorothy how her date was. It was glorious. Glorious. Jeffrey is a dream. It was.

It was so good that she feels even more guilty for having dumped her bum loser ex-husband on Blanche for the evening. And this is where we learn. She's like, where is she? I want to go apologize. And this is where we learn that Blanche isn't home yet. Right. It's after midnight. Like she was not obligated to like dinner with this guy. Like she was, you know what I mean? All she was going to do was go out for an hour. It's been several hours. And Dorothy just assumes it's because Stan is depressed and she feels bad for poor Blanche. Ugh. When Stan is depressed, he's the second most boring man in the world. Who's the first? Stan when he's not depressed. Ugh.

Funny joke. Well, Blanche enters wearing a shirt that looks like Monet's water lilies paintings. It does. You know what I mean? Yes, I do know what you mean. I actually paused it to see if it was based on the water lilies. Perhaps it was. You know that Steve and I went to Monet's garden when we were in France. Oh, lovely. In Giverny. It was the most boring day of my entire goddamn life. Jeez, okay. You take the bus all the way to the water lilies.

all the way out there. They're like, they drop you off at nine in the morning. They're like, we'll be back at five. You're like, great. There must be so much to do. No, you go into the garden, you walk around the little pond, you look at the water, you're done in 15 minutes. It's 9.15 and you got to sit in this little town until five o'clock when the bus comes back. We are not the same. Let me tell you why. My parents planned trips to Europe for several years and there was one trip in the early 90s that I could not go on and it was to France. What did you do? I was probably doing theater, Patrick. What?

Starting my career as a working actress. Actress. Anyway, actress. A-C-T-R-E-S in my blue Chevy. Thank you very much. Yeah, no, you're welcome. So I'm sure, in fact, that's what I was doing. But they videotaped it back then. We had VHS. Oh, my God. And they had this videotape from Giverny with the, you know, the light blue and the yellows and the garden. And I mean to say, I watched this damn videotape over and over.

over and over again. Really? Yes, because... Let me tell you, you didn't miss anything, girl. Well, it just... To me, it just seemed like such an oasis in nature and escape. And you know I'm literally a tree hugger. So, you know, I love this. The difference is we showed up in a bus full of tourists. It wasn't like it was me and my family. It was just us or whatever. But this is a busload of tourists. Yeah, it was. That's the trips they planned. It was. Oh, I see. So you're saying my parents are stupid? What a bunch of idiots your parents are. Oh, it's on. Oh, it's on.

Okay. Just a bunch of idiots. Steve and I have so many pictures of that day because we were just walking around the town with nothing to do. Okay. And we're like, how did we? Then that day I lost my wallet. You're like, oh, stupid nature. Stupid Monet. Stupid art. Look at these weeping, stupid willows and these water lilies. The other thing I learned about Monet, though, was that he wanted to make money. So he had a bunch of different easels set up and he would paint them all.

at different hours of the day so that he could, like, make multiple copies of the water lilies. Yeah. Smart guy. Listen, so many artists died...

in poverty without earlobes. And it's like, you know what? Thank God he, you know, he made some money while he was still alive. Yeah. Back to the episode. Blanche is like downright perplexed because she actually had like a really enjoyable time with Stan. Blanche says, Darth is born. This was the most bizarre evening I've ever spent with a man, including the time with a highlight team from Nicaragua.

She said one man. That was the most bizarre evening she ever spent with a team. Including the time with the Highline team from Nicaragua? Yeah, totally. Remember when we had to figure out what Highline was in another episode? And how were you, you don't know how to say it. What were you going to say? Well, because I'm like Jai Alai. It's J-A-I-A-L-A-I. Oh, they know, honey. You're the only one who doesn't know. Is that why Highline's the thing that people know about? Well, maybe you should get Rosetta Stone and you'd learn. You'd learn how to pronounce it.

Well, Lance sees the sandwiches that Sophia and Rose are making and she's starving. And she asks if she can have a sandwich. And Rose is confused because she thought Stan took her out to dinner. And Dorothy's like, let me guess. You were on your way to a lovely candlelit dinner at Monty's when out of the corner of his eye, Stan spotted a charming little Pakistani restaurant. Indian. Indian.

Cocktails consisted of warm beer and two different shaped glasses. He did the ordering for you, would not let you see the menu, and when he paid the bill, he got change back from a ten. A five. Dorothy, that's amazing. Try me now. I'll think about what I had for dinner.

Rose is utterly blown away by this. She runs over to the table and tells Dorothy to do her next as though Dorothy is psychic. And Dorothy's explaining, I'm not psychic. I was married to this man for 38 years. She's a cheap fucking date. Exactly. He was never going to take you to that fancy restaurant, Monty's. That's right. And

then Blanche says you know actually it wasn't so bad and I'm like is was this an opening credits shot with her oh great what I have to look back but she tells her you know she kind of enjoyed herself yeah and I can relate to this we all can when you have that person where you know it's not going anywhere so you don't have to work to impress them and they don't work to replace you so you just relax yep yep and you actually have a good time and so the penny drops because she says we had fun and the penny drops because she says we're doing it again tomorrow night don't

Dorothy just looks up and we all look right at Dorothy and she just like makes this face like what like she kind of chokes a little bit she says what and Blanche rightly so says well unless you mind I should have asked you first I'll cancel yeah and then Dorothy's like don't be ridiculous why should I object remember Dorothy's got this great new love going on why does she care if Blanche wants to waste a weekend hanging out with Stan right and Rose says well he was your husband Dorothy because and all gals will know there's like girl code right listen I don't think that's just that that extends to

everybody. Okay. You know, I would say that like, if Steve and I broke up and then my best friend is like suddenly hanging out with him, I would definitely, there'd be some questions. For sure. You know? Absolutely. It's just respect. Yeah. Yeah. Boundaries. Even if it was like, I did the breaking up and

I was, you know what I mean? I do. I live it. I know. Yeah. Well, right. Because they don't ever really make this point here. I don't think that Dorothy is at all worried about like Blanche having a fun romance with Stan. I think she's much more like, I hate this guy. This guy was

awful to me. You need to hate him with me. Like, you can't now like him. Right. You know what I mean? Right. It's not that, like, Dorothy cares that Stan's going to be taken away from her. Right. It's more that Blanche is going to be taken away from her. Right. But here, she's okay with it because there's definitely a correlation to the fact that she is dating and she is happy right now. And, like, there's also, like, the difference between Jeffrey, who she's dating, who's this, like, really successful, really respected person, and, like, Stan the loser. Right. And so Dorothy says...

Blanche, don't be ridiculous. I mean, why should I object? Well, he was your husband, Dorothy. Was, was. We're divorced, remember? He left me for a woman half Blanche's age.

Oh, honey, I think it's wonderful that you're going out with Stan again tomorrow night. Jeff and I are going to a formal dinner at the base. Oh, he looks so dashing in his dress uniform. Dorothy had a date with a Commodore. Blanche had a date with Stan. I spent the evening making bacon, lettuce and potato sandwiches. Oh, look, we're divorced. Remember, he left me for a woman half Blanche's age.

So was Blanche. Anyway, so she says, oh, honey, I think it's wonderful you're going out with Stan again. Jeff, because of course this is why she's not bothered. Yes. Jeff and I are going to a formal dinner at the base. He looks so dashing in his dress uniform. And I have to say, Patrick, I feel robbed that we never got to see Jeffrey. I know. So it's dawn, not the next morning, but the morning after that. Because?

because we find out that yesterday they ended up in a crummy location, which is why they're up so early. 5.30 a.m., they've got this huge tray of sandwiches. It's Sophia and Rose, and they're like, they're sneaking out of the house. So Dot enters the living room in a truly fabulous...

Satin white pajama and robe set with navy blue trim. I'm telling you, we've never seen anything like this before and we are never going to see anything like it again. I said gone is the regular nightgowned up dot, you know? Oh, yeah. I feel like maybe these are a present from Jeffrey or something. Maybe. Maybe Jeffrey's back there in the bedroom. Very, very navel blue and white, you know? And she looks really good in these. Oh, I would wear these in a hot second. I know. And I'm like, every day, wear them every day, Dot. I know. But we don't know.

why Dorothy's up at 5.30 but like suddenly she's screaming at Sophia and Rose about like why are they up so early exactly what are you two doing up it's not important go back to bed ma it's 5.30 in the morning it's a little early to be selling lunch we wanted to get the best corner before Johnny No Thumbs shows up with his lunch wagon

Johnny No Thumbs? Well, actually, he has several fingers missing from each hand. It's remarkable to watch him make a veal and pepper hero. You are trying to muscle in on a guy named Johnny No Thumbs? Are you crazy? Relax. If they were his friends, he'd still have his thumbs. Dorothy says, Johnny No Thumbs? And in parentheses, I wrote, God damn it. I know.

Thank you, writers. Johnny, no thumbs. And Rose is fascinated by the fact that he's actually missing several fingers from both hands. And she's also really impressed with his ability to make a veal and pepper hero. One of my uncles worked in a deli section of a supermarket, and I was fascinated as a kid with one of his fingers because while he was slicing meat, he did in fact cut the tip off one of his fingers on the job. Oh!

Oh, my God. Yes. I was supposed to be a deli slicer when I was a kid. My friend Kate, her mom Vinnie, ran the deli at the local grocery store. Okay. And I was going to get one of those jobs like, you know, slicing the meat. And I wouldn't do it because I was afraid I was going to lose a finger. And like you, I was supposed to be a famous actor.

And how was I ever going to be able to do that if I was missing a finger? Listen, you could have been Johnny No Thumbs in this episode. They might have put him on camera, if only. Can you imagine the scene of me slicing my finger off at the local Shaw's? Yes, because I can picture your scream and it would be slightly laryngitic. Long, high...

Yeah. Dorothy is saying like if his name is Johnny No Thumbs, he's probably like connected to the mob. And Sophia makes the great point that if he were actually friends with the mob, he probably would still have his thumb and fingers. Exactly. To which Rose says he's a very sweet man. Although the first time he waved hello, Sophia misunderstood and gave him the finger back to which I wrote, God damn it.

I love the idea of this. I like this old lady is out hawking sandwiches with Rose. Sees the guy who she thinks is- Raw potato sandwiches. Yeah, raw potato sandwiches. In a really, really prime location. Really. And she sees this man waving at her. She thinks he's flipping her off. And the old lady, Sophia, just fucking fingers everywhere. Just birds flying everywhere.

You don't mess with Sophia. But they ask her, like, you know, why don't you go back and try and get more sleep? And she's like, I can't sleep. I'm too upset. Yes. Rose says, what's wrong? And Dorothy says, I won't be seeing Jeffrey anymore. He's leaving town. Now, we get this great monologue from Rose. Because Rose, it turns out, never liked the guy. The minute I heard you were dating a sailor, I said to myself, there'll be nothing but heartaches.

Those swabbies drift into Port, park their ditties on your doorstep...

Show you some tricks they learned in the Orient, and then it's a vast me hearties, and they shove off with a serpent tattoo in your heart as souvenirs. You've been reading Treasure Island again. And again, it's great because this monologue is such a stereotypical viewpoint of the lost loves of dating a sailor. No, wait, wait. She calls them swabbies. Those swabbies drift into port, park their ditties on your doorstep. Deep dive ditties. I know.

that's right some deep dive ditties on your doorstep oh my god like i know who hurt you girl i know i do have a tiny wee ditty on swabby oh what is it what is it well it was first recorded between 1940 and 1945 and is used as slang in the navy and coast guard to refer to a sailor uh swab refer is a noun that refers to the act of scrubbing and mopping the floor i was gonna say like like swabbing the deck or whatever in the deck yeah i'm

I would have done really well in a job like that, I think. Mick, you would have been a great swabby. I'm telling you. My first ever job, I was a dishwasher in a kitchen. I did it for years. I loved it. I was great at it. Because I'm not slovenly gay guy who doesn't mind getting dirty. You know what I mean? And I would just like freaking scrub these dishes. I feel like if I was like a swabby on a deck, I feel like everybody would really like me. Do you have that on your Grindr profile? No.

I like getting dirty. Call me swabby. But so, like, we learn. I'm a little bit confused as to why they broke up. But Sophia says, so he dumped you. And she says, no, he didn't dump me. He's being transferred to the what? The Aleutian Islands? So, that's it, baby. Thank you.

Oh, my God. The High Lie Illusion Island. The High Lie Illusion, exactly. But he's being transferred to the Illusion Islands. He's going to be at a secret base where he can't have contact with the outside world. So is that the story? Because then Sophia says, so he dumped you. And Dorothy says, yes. Oh, my God, Patrick. What happened? You don't get the joke? No. Oh, let's go slow. Okay. So he dumped you, huh? He did not dump me.

Jeffrey is being transferred to the Aleutian Islands. He's going to a top secret base where he can't have any contact with the outside world for at least a year. He dumped you. Yes. Explain it to me, mother. Because I have here, after she says yes, I have, God damn it. It's so great because she said, so Sophia's just said, so he dumped you, huh? And Dorothy says, he did not dump me. And then there's this elaborate tale. That's the point. This elaborate tale where that Dorothy can't be

be in touch with him at all. Couldn't possibly be in touch with her. Right? So it's so elaborate. Jeffrey's being transferred to the Aleutian Islands. Who the hell has ever heard of the Aleutian Islands? He's going to a top secret base where he can't have contact with the outside world for at least a year. He dumped you. Yes. I mean, the whole point is that... She made up the story. No, he made up the story. Oh! The joke is he made... I really didn't get the joke. Okay, so he...

The idea is he has made up this... Perhaps there's a kernel of truth to it. Yeah. Like he and his wife are going on vacation to the Aleutian Islands. Well, who knows? But there's a kernel of truth, but he has made it so heavy-handed. No, he's a Commodore. What is... Oh, God. I hate...

He's made up this elaborate tale. Yeah. And on some level, Dorothy knows it's true. But like we all do, her ego is trying to protect itself by going, uh-huh. Yeah, that sounds reasonable. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's a part of it that's going, am I being broken up?

I'm totally being broken up with. You're being broken up with. Yeah, I'm being broken up with. You know? Yeah. Oh, man. That was a real journey for me. Oh, no. That's happened to me, too, where you're like, listen, it's credit to you. I mean, you're so amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like, uh-huh. You're too amazing for me. You're too amazing for me. You are. I love that in the Golden Girls episode, he'd be saying, you're too mannish for me.

You're just too ugly for me. Like, this is how they write about Dorothy. Right. None of it's true. No, and the number of times, like, just my success. Wow, that's, you are just. Do people say that to you? Oh, sure. They have to break up with you because you're too successful? No one's ever said that to me, by the way. It's, it's, but, it's.

But that when they break up with you, they're sort of like, like they're never ready because you're like, wow, the reason why they've realized these things about themselves is credit to me because I'm so amazing. You know what I mean? And you're still like, oh, honey, it's okay. Get out of here. Get out of here. Really? Get out of here. Get out of here.

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So speaking of, Blanche enters. Now remember, it's 5.30 in the morning. Blanche enters. She's in a great mood. She's wearing a fire engine red dress. Uh-huh. She looks savage. She's like shocked to see them all up. Yeah. And everyone's looking at her like, what is going on? We learned she's been out with Stan all night. Stickman, what are you doing with Blanche? Exactly. What's everybody doing up? I thought you all still be sleeping. We thought you were in your bedroom. Where have you been? With Stan.

Yes, we had the most wonderful time. I'll tell you all about it in the morning. Blanche, this is the morning. Well, so it is. So it is. Well, so it is. So it is. She's got that, like, twinkle in her eye. I know. God damn it. I know. Oh. Oh.

And she saunters off into her bedroom. Now, look, if I'm Dorothy and I've just been broken up with and this lady's this bitch has been out with my ex-husband looking like that until 530 in the morning. And now she's being coy about what they've been doing. I would chase her into that goddamn bedroom. Oh, yeah. I would rip that iconic wallpaper right off the wall and smother her with that pillow. We assume it's later that morning. It's grocery shopping day. Now, I've got a theory about this.

this. Okay. Because we're back at the grocery store. This is how we ended season one. They went, because we, like, in the flashback, we see them shopping at the grocery store. Yeah. I feel like this set is so expensive that they only agreed to build it if they used it in multiple episodes. Oh, probably. Because if you look at the set, like, I made the note, that is a lot of tinfoil. That is a lot of, like...

If you look at the things that are on the shelves, it is like stacks of tinfoil, stacks of baggies. There's fruit. And it's not a grocery store. It's obviously a set. Yeah. Any insight on this? Well, at this point, it is a successful TV show. Yeah. But I do know, you know, every TV show, every production, they're all trying to make as much money as possible, which means they're always also trying to keep costs down as much as possible. Well, because it's one of those things where it looks like it would have taken an entire day to build that set.

you know well they do have a week to set up i mean set dressing you know like i don't know what it was like in the 80s but i do know in the 90s it's basically these sets are sort of set up like a railroad apartment yeah you know what i mean and so over here is the one that they constantly change out yes and so they would like this set that we're looking at is like right next to the kitchen set probably it's like you know shares a wall or whatever exactly yeah i saw that and i was like it looks good you know we're in the supermarket and dot is upset and blanche is trying to get her to talk

with her. Well, Dorothy's like not speaking to Blanche and Blanche doesn't know why. Yeah. And Dorothy thinks it's because they slept together, meaning Blanche and Stan. Yeah. And here we're slightly back to backstabbing Jezebel territory. I know.

Yep. And I have to say, Blanche is extremely patient. I know. You know? Oh, Dorothy, if you won't talk to me, how can I understand why you're angry with me? Just coffee and a walk along the beach. What about it? Oh, come on, Blanche. When you come back from a walk along the beach, you spend an hour shaking the sand out of your underalls. Just exactly what do you mean by that? I mean that Blanche Devereaux does not stay out all night with a man just to go walking along the beach.

Well, never before, that's true. But as Beauregard Jefferson kindly pointed out on my 16th birthday, this is the first time for everything.

And she's having a very paranoid response. We've all been there. And, you know, it's not the best way to handle it. In my opinion, the best way to have handled all of this was for her to realize that she's having a reaction because of her breakup with Jeffrey. Exactly. All she had to do was say, Blanche, I know you're just friends. Yeah. But she doesn't believe that because she's paranoid is the problem. But if she had just said, I know you're just friends, but I'm going to cash in that

shit that you gave me earlier asking me permission. I'm actually uncomfortable. Yeah. And I would appreciate it if you would respect my boundary and not date him or not go out with him as a friend. It's also like pretty obvious, Blanche. You know what I mean? Yeah. There's no, like obviously Dorothy's upset. She was married to this man for 38 years. Remember when you offered in the kitchen, like you said to like, I'm going, I'll just cancel. Right. But

This is conflict so the show can happen, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Right. And eventually, you know, it comes to that. Like, eventually, like, Blanche corners her and they have, like, a moment and Dorothy realizes, like, oh, my God, I don't know why I'm upset about this. I'm obviously only upset because I just got dumped, you know? Right, and so they hug. Yeah. And, you know, and that's all right. And Blanche says, that's all right. Last night you were dumped by the men of your dreams, blah, blah, blah. She says, I'm so glad we had this little talk because, you know, if we hadn't, I'd feel a little strange about going out with Stan tonight. Don't! I don't...

And once again, Dorothy makes a face. We find out they're going to go to the Burt Reynolds Dinner Theater, which if you remember my deep dive from last week, you learned all about it. And, you know, Dorothy's like, and you're going? And Blanche's like, well,

I am. I'd be out of my mind to pass up the chance to see Mr. Jamie Farr in the K-Mutiny Court, Marshall. And I gotta tell you, as we learned last week, like, Burt Reynolds brought so many of his famous friends down. Like, it was not a little community theater. He brought really, really famous people. We're doing shows at that theater all the time. And real quick, Jamie Farr is most famous for appearing in MASH, in the role of

Oh, interesting. Yeah, the TV show. But Dorothy's mad again. And Blanche is chasing Dorothy through the aisles of this grocery store again. She almost bumps into this, like, old man. She says, get out of here, you old fool. Which is one of my favorite moments. I love the camera work in this episode because we're really using the space, you know. So as we've seen, Dorothy has gone around to the other side of the display angry. Yeah. And her cart does bump into Sophia's and Sophia doesn't see that it's her daughter and she immediately thinks she can make money out of this situation. I hurt my back on parallel, Sophia. Oh,

Oh, it's you. Look where you're going. We're almost through with our half of the list. Uh, Rose, tomorrow I want to double the number of sandwiches. Grab some of that aluminum foil. Are you two still gonna sell lunches even after that Johnny No Thumbs leaned on you again? He didn't

And this is just so we can dip back into this, like, B storyline for two seconds to see that they're still making the bacon and lettuce potato sandwiches. And, like, they're being threatened by Johnny No Thumbs. And Sophia makes it clear that she's got, like, a cousin or something in Palermo that she can call. Right? Yeah. Like, she's not afraid because she's got the cousin in Palermo. Dorothy is saying, like, Mom, that guy is harmless. Like, just put a little pin in that because we get a button on that in the last scene.

But like we're back to basically Dorothy and Blanche having this fight in front of like all of the people in the store. Right. And all of these people end up being actors in their play, essentially. Yeah. And Dorothy is finally just kind of gives Blanche the ultimatum. She's like, if there's nothing because Blanche is just saying there's nothing between us. You don't even like this guy. Why do you care? And Dorothy's saying, if there's nothing between you, then you won't go out with him tonight. And she says, then why are you sleeping with my husband? I mean, we're back to backstabbing Jezebel's plot here. Totally.

Why shouldn't I go out with Stan again tonight? You're right. It's my mistake. I thought you were my friend. I am your friend. Then why are you sleeping with my husband? What are y'all looking at? Get on back to your lasso of peas. Dorothy, I promise you there's nothing between us. If there's nothing between you, then you will not go out with him tonight. Isn't that right? We're only going to see a play. And he's not even her husband. He's her ex-husband.

Why am I even explaining any of this to you? Why am I explaining this to anybody? One of those things where it's like, I agree that like Dorothy is overreacting, but I also am like, you don't care about this guy. Like, just don't go out with him. I have all three in parentheses. The Blanche storms off girl code permission. Yes. Like it's yeah. I see, you know, a million percent. I see both sides, but I also think it's real easy if Dorothy had just said, Hey girl. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Hey, girl. So next scene, we're in the kitchen. Rose and Sophia, I love that we learn here that their business is making no money. They've got like a cash box full of IOUs. Sure. I also love the separation, kind of like the bowling episode. Like this episode is like we're in couples. It's true. And we never see Sophia and Rose together. You're right. The whole episode, they're coupled, right? It's funny. And I wonder if that's like a challenge the writers gave themselves. And it makes

sense because like if they're in a business then Sophia can push Rose around you know what I mean yeah it is a funny premise but it's good Sophia's holding a scrap of paper that we learned is an IOU piece of paper and I have to wonder like are her lines on the piece of paper oh right I know yeah but they have receipts from their business in this cigar box they're all IOUs who's Lenny

Tall, red hair, loves tuna on whole wheat. Let me ask you a better question. Why do we have his IOU for two bucks? Well, he didn't have anything smaller than a hundred and we didn't have any change. What about these? Well, they all had hundreds too. Rose, let me give you a few lessons in economics. Lesson number one, quit being an idiot. Okay. Lesson number two, the law of supply and demand. Before you supply the sandwiches, you demand the money. Lesson number three, quit being an idiot. Okay.

Now, in fairness, you are giving them a bacon, lettuce and potato sandwich. So, you know what I mean? Actually, that's not the product. It's a bacon, lettuce, potato sandwich. Bacon, lettuce, potato. And in a minute, we'll get to the long story about these lessons and the callback of that. But first. So Dorothy comes in looking for Blanche. Now, Dorothy tells them straight up she's going to give Blanche a piece of her mind. To which I was like, don't you know that like when you give Blanche a piece of your mind, you get kicked out? Like.

Didn't we learn the hard way from season one? Exactly. Well, there's giving you a piece of your mind and then there's absolutely, you know, like friendship ending words, right? This is why you could never really be friends with a woman. I mean, slut. Okay. I know. Yeah. Rose is wondering why Dorothy is so mad and why Sophia seems to not care. And Sophia gives us this like long picture it

That's right. Caveat, she says, picture this. Yes. Which made a hole in time and space in my head. Oh, my God. That's not right. That's not right.

It's funny watching them, like, get their schtick together. Their isms, yes. Yeah, yeah. And it's this whole story about Sophia, you know, coming across the ocean and going through Ellis Island and how hard that trip was and how, you know, how happy she was to be here. And the point is... That's a really moving story, Sophia. What exactly is the point? The point is you already forgot lessons one and three. Quit being an idiot!

I stole 40 bucks from you while you were listening to that cockamamie story. And it's funny because in the story, she mentions the Statue of Liberty and seeing the Statue of Liberty. So I did a quick little deep dive on the Statue of Liberty. Oh, that bitch. That great green bitch. These are...

Mostly just like interesting tidbits about the Statue of Liberty. I did not know this. The Statue of Liberty was given to the U.S. by France in 1865 to celebrate the end of the Civil War. Did you know that? I mean, I knew that it was given to us by France, but I didn't know that it literally was a congratulations that we had built a, quote, viable democracy. Well, that didn't age well. I know.

Oh, it's been a good couple hundred years. Oh, God. But also Gustav Eiffel, the guy who built the Eiffel Tower, helped design it. They assembled the whole thing in Paris. Sorry, it's Gustav Eiffel. Get out of here.

Get out of here. Get out of here. You know what? I'm going to say it again. I'm going to say it again. Rosetta Stone. Rosetta Stone. So they assembled the whole thing in Paris and disassembled it to ship it to the U.S. So the statue arrived in the New York Harbor on June 17th, 1885 and was met with great fan

fair. Unfortunately, the pedestal for the statue was not yet complete and the entire structure was not reassembled until 1886. Ellis Island was opened in 1892 where over 12 million immigrants arrived over the next 60 years with the Statue of Liberty being the first thing many of them saw. Here are some stats

towering at 879 feet atop the pedestal. Lady Liberty has a 35-foot waistline. I hear you, girl. I feel very seen. I feel very seen in that. She stands 305 feet tall and wears a size 879 shoe. The statue has changed color over time. The skin is made of copper, so for about 55 years it retained that beautiful copper glow. It began to

around 1920 and began turning that, quote, lovely sea green that it is today. Thanks to Eiffel's design, the statue sways in the wind without cracking or bending. That's like my face. Yeah.

Yeah, just like your face. Doesn't crack. She also, this is insane. She was also nearly a speaking statue. Thomas Edison, inventor of the light bulb and phonograph, proposed at one point that a giant gramophone be installed inside the Statue of Liberty, enabling her to, quote, speak. Ultimately, the idea was rejected. Oh, my God. How much do you love the idea of an animatronic Statue of Liberty? That just like does the robot. Just scaring people.

He's like, what is your new name? What name did you get across that Ellis Island? And her eyes shift back and forth, just scaring the shit out of babies and small children.

I love this idea. Oh, I love it too. My last Statue of Liberty fun fact, New York City's Central Park and Prospect Park were both considered as locations. So back to the episode, Dorothy comes back in. We need to point out, Dorothy's back to the nightgown. I really do believe that that gorgeous pajama set was a gift from Jeffrey. Exactly. That she's like burned since the breakup. It's in the backyard in the barrel. Totally. You know, along with Jeffrey. She killed Jeffrey. They're both in the vase together. The Ming Vaz has...

all the ashes. But no, but this is her I'm sad and I write things with a

Yeah, dressed. But she's just so mad that Blanche isn't back yet. And she's just like, what are they doing? She cannot imagine that Blanche is having this much fun with Stan. She's not back yet? No. I don't understand. What could they be doing all this time? You know what they're doing. I also know Stan. We were married for 38 years. And if you added up all the times that we did what he is doing right now, Blanche still should have been home 15 minutes ago. LAUGHTER

Where are you going? To either get ice cream or commit a felony. I'll decide in the car. I just love that she is shamelessly going wherever she is going in the nightgown. Like, she didn't change. She didn't put regular clothes on. She's in her nightgown going where she's going. That's what all homicidal women do. They just throw on the coat on whatever they're wearing or not wearing.

I'm not speaking from experience. No, no, no, no, no. All right. All right. The doorbell rings. Remember, we're all in the kitchen. Betty White has to like jump up and jog to the door because it's clear across the set. I mean, it's a mile away. It's really far away. You think they could have done a cut, but no. Or like staged it so that that other

scene was in the living room maybe we see her run through an empty living room exactly it's so weird yeah she opens the door and it's these two goons sent by johnny no thumbs right vinnie and rocco i have to say i've never wished for a peephole or a chain on that mother effing door more than this moment well you know like it shows the vulnerability of these like four older women like living in this house these like goons show up nary a side light to look through nothing right

Anyway, this guy says, I'm Vinny. This is Rocco. Johnny No Thumbs sent us. The actor's holding up four fingers on each hand. Very clever. And the other actor does some incredible eye acting. Oh, good for him. Bravo. Good for him. Yeah, it's very scary. Go look. It's very, you know, I can't even do it. Yeah, it's very Goonies. One eye is kind of slit and the other one's wide open. I can't do it. That's why he was cast. We have now meet the limitations of your acting abilities. Okay. There are limits. There are limits. I guess we're there. Okay.

And to button the scene, Rose rightly says, Sophia, it's for you. It's for you. So next scene, we're in, I wrote Stan's apartment, question mark, or hotel room. We'll learn later that it's a hotel room. Right. And Patrick's boyfriend, Stan, is in bed. He's in bed with some chick. Someone is under the covers and they're giggling. Yes. And he says, who is it? Dorothy says, it's Dorothy. Stan says to whomever is under the covers, stay under the covers. I'll get rid of her. And I have here, he shouts this question through the door.

you know, who is, but I have to say, Patrick, how hot do you think he is? I'm telling you. I'm telling you. I'm telling you. I know. He looks good.

He looks good. So anyway, it's Dorothy. She comes in. Now she's here. She thinks to confront Blanche for sleeping with her husband. You got to be a certain level of self-assured to be confronting the other woman your husband is sleeping with in a fucking nightgown. You know what I mean? In your dowdy 1800s nightgown. I mean, I plead the fifth on this.

Because I've not done this specific thing, but I can see it. Yeah, I guess like you're just so angry you're not going to get changed. Right, right, right, right. It's so hilarious, though, because we have to pause on this. She says Stan thinks that she's come there to sleep with him. Dorothy, you're in your nightgown. I came here on an impulse. I couldn't help myself. Well, it's really a nice gesture, babe, but I'm afraid I'll have to take a rain check. LAUGHTER

Stanley, you truly are one chromosome away from being a potato. To which I wrote, God damn it. I know. And I texted Patrick. It's so good. It's so goddamn good. I love that you and I almost always love all the same lines in this. So Dorothy says, I'm not here to talk to you. I'm here to talk to her. Stan stands back. This woman is like, we think it's Blanche is under the covers. And Dorothy goes over to like, give a monologue. I mean,

talking to the lump in the bed. I will say it's a beautiful monologue. It is. She's very in touch with her emotions. She knows exactly what she wants to say. She's not yelling and screaming, but she's basically just saying, I cannot believe you chose him over me. And this woman sits up and she says, Well, gee, I would have. But I didn't know myself until about an hour ago. Ha ha ha! Ha ha ha!

I have to say, this woman looks like me if I were skinny and had 80s blonde hair. Oh, stop it. I was literally thinking this could be you. We could be related. Yeah, because, and I was thinking. Big eyes, strong chin, hair up, red lipstick, no. Too whorish. Do you think...

that the laugh was in the script or she added it? Oh, that's a good question. Because the laugh is really the funniest part of the whole thing. And I feel like, look, this woman was like, I got one line. I got to make it memorable. I'm going to say she might have done it at the audition and they loved it. That would, if I had a,

guess that would be it. That's good. Look again, if you are auditioning, you have one line, do something to stand out. How many women did they see for that? A hundred? Yeah. It's really hard to stand out. So I'm going to guess she did it for the audition and they liked it. So she did the same thing. So next scene, Dorothy comes back into the kitchen. The place is covered with flowers and it turns out Johnny No Thumbs sent flowers to Rose and Sophia because remember the grocery store scene, Sophia had that thing where she was saying she had the cousin in Palermo or whatever. Oh, the uncle, old uncle Vito. Old uncle Vito.

made a call to Johnny No Thumbs, did some scaring, and now he sent them some flowers. And he addressed it to Johnny No Knees, which I liked. I liked

I like it in writing more than the delivery. I think it would have been great to do a dry delivery. Totally. A Dorothy delivery. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Either way, he and we got the message. And to nobody's surprise, they are not going to stick around in the sandwich game. Dorothy goes into the living room. Blanche is in there reading a book. And this is a very sweet moment. Dorothy says, I want to apologize. And so Blanche says, OK. And so Dorothy just says, I apologize. Like, she doesn't really know what else to say, you know? And Blanche is like, that's it?

Yeah. And she explains more, you know, that she went to Stan's hotel room, thought you were there. Blanche is like, I wasn't. I know. Yeah. And Blanche tells her, I told him even though there was nothing between us, I couldn't see him anymore. Yes. And Dorothy is just kind of saying, like, I wish I could explain why I felt the way that I felt, but I can't. Dorothy is just saying that, like, I wish I could explain it, but I can't. I think some of it may be that I didn't want to share my memories with

I mean, that part of my life with Stan is over, but I still wanted it to be just mine, you know, and I was afraid that you might take that part away. And I was feeling jealous and lonely and God knows what else. Magenta.

And Blanche says magenta. And I, and along with all of you, probably love this. Yes. I love this. It's great. And today it sounds it serves as a great reminder to me, too, because I do. I know this feeling. Yeah. Magenta. That's what I call it when I get that way. All kinds of feelings tumbling all over themselves. Well, you know, you're not quite blue because you're not really sad. And although you're a little bit jealous, you wouldn't say you're green with envy and

Every now and then you realize you're kind of scared, but you'd hardly call yourself yellow. I hate that feeling. I just hate it. And I hate the color magenta. That's why I named it that. Magenta. No way to really explain it, but fortunately between friends you don't have to.

This might be one of the best monologues of the entire series, in my opinion, because it's psychologically so accurate. Sometimes the writing, like, you're like, damn, like, that came from, like, a writer's heart and brain. God damn it. God damn it. That was good. Yeah, it's really, really, really good. And they hug. And I have to say, Dot, like us, has physically leaned into this story, and she's just wrapped with attention. Yeah, and then...

Blanche then says to her, why did you marry Stan? And it's like, but wait a second, Blanche. You just had like three amazing days with him. Like you were charmed by him. You had a lot of fun. Sure. But you know, Dorothy is saying it was her magenta period. And to defend me, Stan was rather handsome when he had hair. I said, I have here just as Patrick.

Yeah. And then Dorothy says he had a certain elegant charm and Blanche says, oh, please. And then, of course, what we all know, Dorothy buttons the episode by saying, and of course, I was four months pregnant. But the real button is they hug. Yes. And it was a beautiful little hug at the end, which I kind of needed. Yeah, I totally agree. I totally, I feel like Rose and Dorothy are never going to have those moments. You know what I mean? Well.

No. No. All right, girl. When we come back, you are doing your deep dive on Joan Rivers. I'm so excited. Gay icon, TV icon, comedy icon, Joan Rivers. Yeah, it's my absolute honor and privilege. Oh, yeah. All right, well, don't go anywhere. She's gay. We'll be back in just a second.

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Find a shoe for every you at your DSW store or DSW.com. Oh, cheesecakes. I'm so excited for this. So Jen is going to give us a deep dive on Joan Rivers. This came from an earlier episode. That week was the week the Joan Rivers show premiered on Fox. And we were going to do a mini deep dive in the intro. But I was like, I feel like this deserves its own like full deep dive. Joan Rivers was an icon. Icon queen. And honestly, just...

had to suffer and move the football down the field, you know, a few yard lines so that the women who came after her had an easier time of it. I mean, the number of, sorry, I'm giving stuff away, but the number of times women in this industry and not just this industry in general are just met with misogyny and horrible treatment.

Don't be uppity. You know, being a successful woman ain't no joke. And you get a lot of shit for it. And so I'm looking at a woman who knows from what she speaks. Thank you very much. Well, I'm really honored to do this comedian and extraordinary woman. Well, lay it on us, comedian and extraordinary woman. So this is our deep dive on Joan Rivers. She was born Joan Alexandra Malinsky in Brooklyn on June 8th, 1933 to Meyer and Beatrice Grushman Malinsky. They were immigrants from Russia. I did not know that.

No, me either. Just Russian. Right. Wow. This is my Joan Rivers deep dive. If you could do the whole thing in that accent, that'd be great. Thank you so much. Her father, a doctor, did comic imp— Now I'm sounding like Count Dracula. Yeah, I can see it. I'm cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs. Remember that, cereal? Totally. Okay.

So her father was a doctor. He did comic impersonations of patients. Okay. Clearly pre-HIPAA. Right. And, you know, she obviously got... You're Dan and Morphe. She got some comedic talent from him, obviously. Yeah. Her mother insisted on piano lessons for her and private schools for Joan and her sister, actually, Barbara. They grew up in Brooklyn and also Larchmont. Okay. Joan attended Adelphi Academy in Brooklyn, Connecticut College for Women, and Barnard College. Thank you very much. Smarty Pants. Smarty Pants. She was a member of Phi Beta Kappa,

Kappa. She graduated in 1954 with a degree in English. Wow. Okay. Fancy. Great. So after graduating in 1954, she pursued acting in New York and she landed a few small off-Broadway roles.

Same girl, same. And she, you know, she dreamt of an acting career, but while she was dreaming and trying to make this work, she worked in the publicity department at Lord & Taylor. I love Lord & Taylor, and I wish they were still there. I love that department store. She was also a fashion coordinator for the Bond clothing stores. That's good to know, because she would go on to do her fashion police stuff. Is this my deep dive or yours? Sorry, sorry. I saw that coming a mile away.

He just can't let it go. Are we going to shut the hell up? Cheesecakes, do you feel the control? I know. Listen, listen, listen. I know you're a man, but I can do it. I'm just over here bathing in my misogyny. It was such a natural segue because I thought the same thing. I was like, oh. And I wrote the damn thing. I'm like, oh, right. Wait a minute. I'm just getting that connection because I'm a girl. It takes me a while. Totally.

All right. So her parents, sadly, they refused to support her acting ambitions. Yeah. And she struggled for years as an office temp. I remember that was a big thing when I was like, you can temp. Oh, yeah. She was temping while she was taking small parts off off Broadway.

So a common claim about Rivers' early career was that she played a lesbian love interest to the then-unknown Barbra Streisand. Did you know that? Oh, I did not. Yeah. So there was this one play called Driftwood. In her 1986 autobiography, Rivers talked about a crucial last-minute role gender switch from male to female, Barbra Streisand's kissing abilities, and...

wielding a knife in her quote love scene with Streisand's character Lorna. And what was this play called? It was called Driftwood. Wow. Yeah, she talked about it I think in the 2008 in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. Okay, great. Yeah, interviews like that as well as her autobiography. But according to the playwright, Joan Rivers was either misremembered it or she embellished the details of the role.

Rivers' version of the theatrical events officially came crashing down. For Streisand, her life author James Spada was able to confirm that none of what Rivers had been saying was correct.

quote, there was no lesbianism in my play, says Driftwood playwright Maurice Tay Dunn. I can't imagine where Joan got that. In those days, it would have been suicide in the theater. Barbara and Joan never had a single exchange together. They were never on stage at the same time. That picture of them together in Joan's book was posed during rehearsals, end quote. Wow. Interesting, right? Please, I would embellish a story about that, too. You've read my book. Nope. Ha ha ha ha ha.

I will. I'll get to it. I'm busy. You are busy. Do you know I have a stack of about six books right now. Each of them are not completed. How many are written by people you know and are dear friends with? Just curious. I want to talk about it. Okay, great. Plead the fifth.

Okay. It was around this time that she began going by the name Joan Rivers. And she scared off a talent agent in the process. Let me tell you that. So there was a theatrical agent named Tony Rivers who suggested that Joan adopt a stage name instead of her own. So she decided to take his. She said, I changed it.

I changed his Joan Rivers because I wanted to be an actress. And I had all these friends that would spend hours saying, should I be Lily Louise or shall I be Rose? I thought, just get me some work. I'll change my name. And this first agent that sent me out was this man named Larry Rivers. And I said, OK, I'm Joan Rivers. And that got him so scared he never sent me out again. He really thought I was glomming on to him. Didn't we talk about what your stage name would be in another episode? Seth Parker. And I was going to be J.J. Stryker. No, J.J. Stryker. Yeah.

I wanted it to be JJ Stryker, but I can't do striving. JJ Stryker. Oh my God. That's so good. I sound like a soccer player. What if the Golden Girls Deep Dive podcast was hosted by Seth Parker and JJ Stryker? You know what I mean? I mean, two gays if I ever heard. Perfect. JJ? Seth? Oh.

All right. So in the mid 1950s, she started doing stand up to support her acting, but realized she had a knack for it. Yeah. I didn't even want to be a comedian. Nobody wanted to be a comedian. I wanted to be an actress. I was an office temp when one secretary said to me, you're very funny. You should go do stand up. They make six dollars a night some places. And I said, that's more than I'm making as an office temp. I made eight. But I had to also pay for my correcto type because I was a lousy speller. So I thought,

I could do that and have days free to make the rounds. And that's why I became a comedian. Wow. So she went into stand-up to support her acting, like we've said, working in grimy cafes, small clubs. She was fired often. But she liked comedy and was good at it. She developed fresh routines based on her experiences and observations. Yeah. So an observational comedian. Yeah. So one of the few female stand-ups of the era, she spent nearly a decade eking out a living as a writer and a performer alongside fellow comics, get this, like Woody Allen, Richard Pryor, George Carlin.

Wow. Wow.

Bob Hope would walk into a town and say, the traffic lights in this town are so slow that, and it could be in any town. When I went on stage, that just didn't feel right. So I just said, let me talk about my life. Yes. In the late 1950s, Joan Rivers had her first appearance on The Tonight Show. It was then hosted by Jack Parr. Oh,

Oh, wow. But it was a career setback at the time. You know, it gave her national exposure, but the audiences and Mr. Parr himself were appalled at her off-color ethnic jokes. Yeah. And so far from being a springboard to success, it was a setback. Wow. Joan Rivers said, Jack Parr took a pencil through my name, but fuck him. Oh, wow.

All right. But, and this is what I remember her being known for, she did find steady work on Candid Camera. Oh. After that Jack Parr experience, she began working as a writer and performer for Candid Camera. You know, and that show, you know, they lured unsuspecting members of the public into ludicrous situations that were captured on camera. In 1965, she worked as a gag writer and participant on this show, and she played the role of the bait character.

which was the person that would lure the people into these situations. Oh, yeah. That's what they would call it, the bait. So after Jack Parr, of course, Johnny Carson took over The Tonight Show. And this was a really big breakthrough for her. For those of you who don't know, The Tonight Show was truly a launchpad for innumerable comedians in the 60s and 70s. That's where you wanted to be seen. Yeah. Joan Rivers says, in those days, the talent scouts would come down to the village and look at you for Johnny Carson. I was the very last one of the group that they put on The Carson Show.

She allegedly repeatedly auditioned for The Tonight Show, but she kept getting passed over. Wow. By early 1965, many in the industry told her she was washed up, age 31. Oh. River said, look at this, she says, I was brought up seven times to The Carson Show, interviewed and auditioned seven times by seven different people, and they rejected me.

each time over a period of three years. Wow. I was working for NBC then, but as a writer, as a performer, well, I'd been around too long. They all liked me, but no one was crazy for her. And by the way, you remember Everybody Loves Raymond? Yeah. I remember his big appearance on Late Night, and that's the thing. Everybody loved him. Yeah. You know, like, so when she says no one was crazy for her, that matters, you know? Yeah, for sure. So...

She finally got her big break. At the time, Bill Cosby was filling in and the comedian on the show that night bombed. And Bill said to the booking producer, Shelley Schultz, Joan Rivers couldn't be any worse than this guy. Why don't you use her? Just a ringing endorsement. Hey.

That's why they put her on the show. They didn't bring me on as a stand-up comic. They brought her as a funny girl writer. I'm the only stand-up that never did a stand-up routine on The Carson Show. Wow. Her first appearance was February 17, 1965, and she was an absolute hit.

In the final minutes of The Tonight Show, Joan Rivers, who at the age of 31 had a full decade of experience, seized the moment, wrung every drop out of it and son of a gun transformed herself forever right there on TV in front of the nation. She and Carson had an immediate rapport, his cool and relaxed temper and her frazzled, frantic energy. He asked leading questions about Larchmont, about dating, about her struggles with beauty, about, well, you know, being her. And she knocked each one out of the park, each softball across the plate.

Boom, boom, boom. Wow. So when her 10 minutes or so were up, Carson, wiping a tear of laughter from his eye, beamed and said, God, you're funny. You're going to be a star. Oh, oh.

Oh, I just got chills. I know, right? So yeah, it made her an overnight sensation. The next morning, Rivers called her manager, Roy Silver, to find out what they'd said about her. He shouted, Jesus Christ, where have you been? The phone has been ringing off the hook. You'll never make under $300 a week for the rest of your life, I guarantee you. Oh my God. So New York Journal American columnist Jack O'Brien had written, Johnny Carson struck gleeful gold again last night with Joan Rivers, an absolute hilarious delight.

Her seemingly offhand anecdotal clowning was a heady and bubbly proof of her lightly superb comic acting. She's a gem. Wow. So she quit candid camera. She called home to share the good news, and she learned from her mother that their phone had been ringing all day with well wishes as well. Oh. Rivers later said she knew in that moment that her life was going to be different, and it was. Almost immediately, she began booking high-profile gigs and appearances and was hired as a Tonight Show show writer.

Wow. She says it was all over. 31 years of people saying no. 10 minutes on television and it was all over. Wow. Perseverance, you know? Yeah. She became a fixture on The Tonight Show over the following decades, becoming the regular Tonight Show guest host. I remember that at this point. Yeah. She made nearly 100 Tonight Show appearances where she and Carson showed a quick, warm, on-air banter despite their having little off-camera contact due in part to Carson's legendary aloofness.

As a frequent guest host of The Tonight Show in the 70s, she toned down her acidity for the national audience, you know, network television. And she often relied on the theme of self-deprecation in her humor. Her ratings as host sometimes surpassed Carson's. Wow. And NBC signed her as the sole regular replacement during his eight or nine annual vacation weeks in the 80s. Wow. That's what I remember, you know.

So while she rotated the position with several other comedians, including David Brenner and Gary Shandling, by 1983, she'd become the primary guest host. Outside of The Tonight Show, she was an in-demand superstar. The exposure made her a superstar in demand for award shows, conventions, TV specials. She was on magazine covers, commanded television,

$200,000 for five nights in Vegas. Whoa! Now, here we get to the rut row part. So there was a pretty famous falling out, of course, with Johnny Carson. Did you know that? Yes. Okay, so in the mid-'80s, Johnny Carson was expected to retire, and Rivers was expecting a shot at becoming the permanent Tonight Show host.

Carson had been hosting The Tonight Show for over 20 years, and Rivers was surprised to learn that she was not on the shortlist. Wow. I wonder why. Well, obviously. So NBC was dragging their feet in renewing her contract. So because of all this, because she wasn't on the shortlist, Fox approached her about hosting her own late night show. Right. And she listened. In early 1986, she was approached by Barry Diller and executives from the soon-to-launch Fox Television Networks.

Diller, eager to make a big splash to attract audiences and advertisers to a fledgling startup hoping to take on one of the big three networks, tried to lure Rivers away with a tantalizing proposition. Ten million dollars for her own show, making her the first female late night host. Fox also promised to hire Rivers' husband, Edgar Rosenberg, to serve as the show's producer, which was an unusual business arrangement, but one which helped sweeten the deal for her. Wow.

But at the advice of her husband, Rivers decided to keep Johnny Carson in the dark about this potential development due to his alleged temperamental nature. So just understand the timeline. Carson hasn't left yet, but NBC also was dragging their feet, renewing her contract. And now she gets this new offer. Correct. And it was sort of the worst kept secret, of course, that she wasn't on the shortlist. And they knew it was going to, you know, so everyone knew. So she was essentially headhunted, right? Yes. Yes. Basically, though, her husband just, you know, it wasn't to be

to be completely untoward. He just told her, don't inform Johnny until the deal was finalized, which is extremely reasonable. Absolutely. Because anything could fall through, right? Because Johnny could have killed that for her. Well, that, but also even on its own, that's just good business. Until you have a contract signed, it's really not a done deal. So why would you, if it's emotional, why would you break someone's heart? Why would you disappoint them unless it was, you know what I'm saying? Yes. One of the reasons he advised her this, because other comedians who had been on The Tonight Show, regulars who were

they were generally banned from the show as soon as they made their intentions to host their own shows known. Oh, wow. Yeah, allegedly. So if that happened to Rivers, it meant she might spend the year or 18 months until her show aired with no TV appearances. Right. And what if she told Carson and the deal fell through, which is what I was saying, you know, he might still give her the cold shoulder. Unfortunately,

news of her new show leaked and Johnny Carson was furious. Yeah. You can see it happening, right? Of course. If you'd only told me and the thing is, sure, but I think he would have been furious no matter what. Absolutely. You know? Absolutely. Based on his response. So the weekend before her show was announced, the weekend before news leaked out, Joan claimed she...

repeatedly tried to reach Carson. And when she finally did, he hung up on her before she could explain. God. According to an interview with the Television Academy Foundation, she called Carson up and said, Johnny, it's Joan. I think I'm leaving the show. I have my own show on Fox. And he hung up. She called back and he hung up again. Carson claimed that the call never happened and that he learned about the show through a press release. I believe Joan. I do too, because the way he's framing it

He's saying he learned about it before she called him. Yes. Yes. You know what I'm saying? And that she never called him. Ahead of how he found out. Right. So after this, Johnny Carson completely cut off communication with her, never speaking to her again. Wow. Yeah. Johnny Carson, who had in essence given Joan her career, was furious that she didn't consult him before announcing the move.

He cut off communication. And like I said, he never spoke to her again before his death in 2005 ever. That's insane. She says the first person I called was Johnny and he hung up on me and never, ever spoke to me again and then denied that I called him. I couldn't figure it out. I would see him in a restaurant and go over and say hello. He wouldn't talk to me. I kept saying, I don't understand. Why is he mad? He was not angry at anybody else. I think he really felt because I was a woman that I was just his.

Wow. Wow. Wow.

I mean, that's horrible. Yeah. Like, imagine how it could have gone. He could have celebrated this groundbreaking glass ceiling breaking thing that he helped establish. No, but he had to be angry white guy. Yeah. Angry entitled white guy. Totally. Angry straight entitled white guy. Yeah.

I've never heard of anything like that. Never heard of anything like it. So Joan Rivers late night show struggled from the start with Carson banning anyone who appeared on her show from his. That's a death knell to a new show. That is an absolute killer. That is so. But that's the thing. It's like, do you want to destroy her? Oh, great. Exactly. I mean, sorry, be angry, but talk about a disproportionate response, a

power move. I've never understood that. Why not celebrate the success of a person that you helped bring up? Just as a sidebar, you know, David Letterman didn't get the job. Jay Leno did. Right. Even back then, I was like, right. And sorry, America. And sorry, Jay Leno. But personally, I thought David Letterman was far more talented. Yeah. And I actually think, I'm sorry, Johnny Carson. I think he was threatened and didn't want anyone to come close to his... Being as good as he was. Being as good as he was. Which he nailed with Jay Leno. Yeah.

Got it. Congrats. Congrats. You did it, Johnny. Mission accomplished. Mischief managed. So, like I said, it struggled from the start. It premiered on October 9th, 1986, and almost immediately it ran into trouble. A number of local affiliates refused to air the show, some out of fear of River's brand of comedy, some out of loyalty to Carson. No! I mean, it's like the chicks, you know? Yeah, of course. I mean, formerly the Dixie Chicks, right? It's just this blackballing happening. Yep.

The Tonight Show team made it known that anyone appearing on, as I said, anyone appearing on her show would be banned from Carson's, making booking celebrity guests nearly impossible. So ratings tanked and Rivers and her husband then began clashing with Fox executives. Both were fired after only nine months. It reminds me of, you know, Conan O'Brien. Yeah. Like, it's just brutal. It's horrible. Brutal boxing ring of a place to be in. Yeah. So when Rivers was ordered to fire...

Rosenberg, she refused. And both of them were then fired. She was ordered to fire her own husband? Yeah, that's the sequence of events. So the late show continued for several years with a series of new hosts, including comedian Arsenio Hall, whose popularity as host helped him launch his own successful late night show several years later. After being fired, she found herself blackballed from the industry. I remember all of this. When she was fired from Fox, along with her husband, Edgar, Carson's coldness toward her reverberated across the industry. The host,

Wow. Wow.

Wow. And I remember this was horrible. Amidst all this late show fallout, her husband died by suicide. I remember. August 14th, 1987. Do you remember that press conference? Oh, yes. Oh, the trauma. I mean, which is just it's like after rising to such heights that this was the fallout. Yeah. You know. So Joan was devastated by the failure of the show and the experience put an increasing strain on her marriage. So how did we get here? So after more than 30 years, the couple had quietly separated.

And then he, of course, commits suicide. He overdosed on prescription pills. She said that getting fired from the syndicated show on Fox and the negative publicity she received when she left NBC contributed to her husband's depression. He blamed himself for everything, she said. He internalized it. He thought, like everyone else, that Joan's career was over, and he thought that he had brought it on. Isn't that awful? Horrible. Making matters worse, she also discovered, I didn't know this part, she was tens of millions of dollars in debt. What?

Wow. So her husband, who was also her business manager, had squandered much of her wealth, leaving her dangerously in this situation. So reeling with grief and with rage...

She then discovered she was broke to learn that she had earned millions of dollars and she lived in this life of luxury. But because of the squandering and bad investments, get this, $37 million in debt. Oh, my God. And to find out she had debt and all the opportunities dried up. Yes, right. The money making opportunities vanished, right? Yeah. Because she's a woman. She managed to claw her way back. Sorry, not that men can't.

No, absolutely. Be a bitch. She managed to claw her way back. She was so distraught, she nearly considered suicide herself. But instead, she slowly but surely worked her way back into Hollywood's favor. By 1989, she landed a daytime talk show, The Joan Rivers Show. Ran for five years. Yes, girl. That's me clapping. In 1994, she made her first awards show red carpet appearance for E! alongside her daughter Melissa, as you were saying, launching a surprising new career as queen of the red carpet. Yes.

And the hits kept coming. She designed her own line of jewelry for QVC. Really good jewelry, too. She appeared on reality shows like Celebrity Apprentice. She won, of course. And Joan and Melissa. Joan knows best? Question mark? She landed memorable TV gigs on Nip Tuck and Louis and started a YouTube web series called In Bed With Joan. Meanwhile, she relentlessly toured the country doing stand-up. And, drumroll please, she eventually returned to... I could cry. I know. I know.

I know. I know. I know. She eventually returned to The Tonight Show in February 2014. She did. Yeah. After nearly three decades of being banned, she briefly showed up in a skit on Jimmy Fallon's first episode as host in February 2014. I would say to say bravo to Jimmy Fallon. Yes. For doing the right thing. Absolutely. So let's talk a little bit about her gay fan base. Yes. And this, you know, her Golden Girls connections. Yeah. Yeah. But she'd long been a proponent of the gay community.

Rivers talked a great deal about gay culture on her TV shows. When the 1990 documentary Paris is Burning came out, Rivers had the cast and director on her show. Wow. She was an enthusiastic backer of marriage equality in 2012. Prior to President Obama's historic announcement, she criticized him and other politicians for their

cowardice on the issue. It is outrageous. The politicians are all such ass kissers. No one is saying the truth. They're saying what they think people want to hear, she observed. So an ordained minister of the Universal Life Church, Rivers herself officiated at least two same-sex weddings in New York state. For years, she served on the board of God's Love We Deliver, a New York-based charity that provides meals to AIDS patients. I'm going to cry again. I know. I know.

We're doing okay, girl. To AIDS patients and others who are too sick to shop or cook for themselves, her victory on NBC's Celebrity Apprentice raised hundreds of thousands of dollars for the organization. When asked if she believes women and gay men are the superheroes of the fashion world, Rivers chuckles and says, oh, honey, take women away. It's all gay men. Every so often you hear a woman's name come up like Carolina Herrera or Chanel, but come on, it's Charles James, Yves Saint Laurent, Dior. It's always been men, men, men. And she credits the gay community for being her

earliest supporters. My gay fans, she says, have been wonderful from day one. I remember when I was working at the Duplex in Greenwich Village, New York at the beginning of my career and the only ones who would laugh at my jokes were the gay guys. I think if I had started out in straight clubs and bars, I never would have gotten anywhere. Wow. Even today, she says, when I'm on tour, I always know if I get eight gay men in the front row, it's going to be a great show. Maybe it's just me and I know they're going to laugh at what I'd laugh at, but when my gays are in the audience, it's always a good time. Oh,

She also credits the gay community for her lasting success. In fact, Rivers attributes part of her success to the degree by which she has been embraced by LGBTQ plus fans. A lot of drag queens have impersonated me over the years, and I think it's fabulous. Me too, girl. When that happens, it means you become part of the culture. Yeah.

Oh, I love you. I had so many drag queens sing my songs. I just love this. She says, I mean, nobody is going to walk out on stage as my Aunt Shirley. People have to know who you are. And that means I become part of gay culture. I think that's just great. So you can go look these up. But there's lots of Golden Girls references with Joan. She has a whole thing where she discusses the Golden Girls wardrobes. She has an interview with Rue McClanahan from 1987. Betty White and Joan Rivers roast each other in the 1983 Tonight Show. Oh, wow. Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

That's famous. I love that. Yeah, yeah. And sadly, we all know this. She tragically, shockingly died August 28th, 2014 during what was supposed to be a routine procedure. On August 28th of that year, she experienced serious complications and stopped breathing while undergoing what was scheduled to be a minor throat procedure at an outpatient clinic in Yorkville, Manhattan.

Resuscitated an hour later, she was transferred to Mount Sinai Hospital in East Harlem and later put on life support. She died on September 4th at Mount Sinai, never having awakened from a medically induced coma. John Rivers' family reached a settlement with the doctors and the clinic it had sued for malpractice over her death.

The suit outlined a series of really egregious errors that it said led to her death, with the doctors basically starstruck, nervous and fumbling as the crisis unfolded. So essentially, she was to undergo a laryngoscopy, which was an examination of her voice box and vocal cords, and an endoscopy, which involves looking at the upper digestive system and is performed under anesthesia. Like, seriously, this could be minor. Minor and me as a singer. Yes. You know, and there's all that Laura there. Like, oh, what other plastics?

surgery is she going to get? It's like, fuck you. Yeah. Yeah. And even if she was, fuck you. Exactly. You know what I mean? So according to the malpractice suit, the doctors were so eager to please that they violated protocols. And at one point, Dr. Cohen pulled out his cell phone and took a photograph of her on the operating table. Oh, my God. Did you not know that? I did, but it's hard to hear. Then the main anesthesiologist, Dr. Bankula, concerned that she would be blamed in the death, wrote out five pages of notes on the day of the procedure detailing what she saw and heard.

According to the notes, Dr. Bankula, sensing something was amiss during the procedure, warned that Ms. Rivers' vocal cords were extremely swollen and that they could seize up. You're such a curious cat, Dr. Cohen said, according to the suit. He dismissed the anesthesiologist's concern as, quote, paranoid and let...

Dr. Coravin proceed, the suit said. Soon, Ms. Rivers' vocal cords closed and she stopped breathing. Oh, my God. Dr. Bankula, this is the anesthesiologist, realized that Ms. Rivers was, quote, suffering from an airway obstruction and or laryngospasm or laryngospasm, a closing of the vocal cords, but did not demand a crash cart, which might have had a drug like succinylcholine to relax her.

her muscles and allow insertion of the breathing tube. Dr. Bankula looked around for Dr. Coravin to punch a hole in her throat. He has emergency procedure, which Dr. Coravin should have been trained to do. But Dr. Coravin had already left the clinic. Oh, my God. According to Dr. Bankula's notes, the anesthesiologist notes, several chaotic minutes passed before 911 was called, according to the lawsuit. Oh, my God.

Because everyone's like, panic and blame, panic and blame. Well, that's why it's so smart that that woman took all those notes. Like, I'm going to write it down while it's all still fresh. I don't get blamed for that. I mean, yeah. But holy shit. So, yeah, she died September 4th, 2014, when she very much oughtn't have died. Yes. And we miss her to this day. My former press agent,

Judy Katz, who maybe again, but you know, Bernadette is coming into Broadway this spring. Yeah. And that's she shares Judy as a press agent. So, of course, I tapped out to use someone else out of respect. Yeah. And she recommended a great firm, The Lead Company. But Judy was like my show mother. Yeah. And she represented Joan. Oh, wow. So, you know, this is very difficult for all of them. And they were very good friends. And it is my absolute honor to have been able to do at least something about her glorious life. Well, that was amazing.

Amazing. And it was beautiful to see you become like to be connected to it and to get emotional about it. Yeah. Well, listen, as a comedian of sorts. Yeah. Not a stand up comedian, but an acting comedian. I can't speak for everyone, but I can tell you as a woman, it's very challenging.

To be a woman who knows the science of comedy over the years, it's something I'm not an expert in many things. And there are so many people who are smarter than me. But it's something I think I know after years of doing the work. You know, I'm 54 years old. And what I love about her story is it's a story of perseverance. Yes. I'm going to cry again. It's a story of perseverance and not giving up. Yeah. And not being afraid to say the right thing when you know you're right and not apologizing for it.

no matter how much it may or may not hurt people's fee-fees. Yeah. You know, people don't get out of this world not getting their feelings hurt. And it's hard to be a woman. Yes. And to say what you mean and mean what you say and not have people be offended. Yes. And take it out on you. Yeah. When you're being an advocate for yourself as you should be. So I look to her as someone I emulate and I hope I make her laugh in that great sky above. Oh! Oh!

Well, Mother Cheesecake, I love you so much. Love you so much. Cheesecakes, thank you for listening. Hey, join the Facebook group. It's the Golden Girls Steve Dive podcast discussion group. You're going to love being there. You're going to learn about the Golden Girls. You're going to make new friends. You're going to, I don't know, have a safe space on the internet to come and just hang out. And go watch The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel because you might see a little Joanage in there. Yeah, I think it's like... Like a little homage-y. It's homage-y to Joan, I think. And it's one of my favorite, favorite, favorite shows. Did you watch it? I watched season one and then I dropped off...

because I didn't like it, but because time. I just had so much to do and there's not enough hours in the day. But I love a binge watch. Oh, yeah. So that's what I'll do. I'll just, I'll like spend a week and just finishing the series. It's only eight episodes per season. I think there's six seasons and it has one of the best finales I've ever seen. So it's very, very, very good. Anyway, we love you, Cheesecake. Thanks for hanging out with us. Thanks for hanging out and thanks for, thanks for holding my hand as I wept. How many weeps did we have? I'm going to take Mother Cheesecake to the bar on the way to her show tonight. But I don't drink. I don't drink.

Do they have club soda or diet ginger ale? That's my jam. Diet ginger ale. I'll get you one of those. Whatever it takes. I love a nice Canada dry. Oh, my God. Love y'all. Bye. I love you. Bye.

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