Rose the Prude (Season 1, Episode 3)
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Jennifer Simard. Hi, Patrick Hines. You know what, Patrick, before we do anything else, cheesecakes, cheesecakes, please join the Facebook group for the podcast. We're having so much fun hanging out in there, aren't we? It's not just Golden Girls memes, it's me and you. It's people just sharing their lives. It's becoming friends. That's what the Facebook group is. It's the Golden Girls Deep Dive Podcast Discussion Group. Yep. Search it on Facebook. Join up. I also want

I just want to remind people what our podcast is. So, Golden Girls Deep Dive Podcast. We are not just doing funny, silly, hilarious recaps of the Golden Girls. We're doing deep dives throughout. And then at the end of each episode, we're doing a deep dive from something from the Golden Girls universe. We have a wonderful researcher, Jess. And also, it turns out you and I, we've decided we're historians like Michael Beschloss. The presidential historian for MSNBC. You're going to see us on MSNBC soon enough. Don't worry. You are doing the deep dive at the end of the episode today. What are you doing? I'm doing our queen, Betty White. Yeah.

Oh my gosh. The life and career of. I know. You should see us cheesecakes when we try to decide who's going to do what. And it's so funny how it just kind of like, it really does pan out. We're like, yeah, you wanted to do Bea Arthur. Yeah. I'm doing Bea Arthur. And then I think next week I'm doing Estelle Getty. Like I want to do the salty ones. And I really wanted to do Rue McClanahan because I'm a whore. Yeah.

So, girl, how are you? I'm so good. You look so nice in your bathrobe. Thank you. Tell the cheesecakes what's going on. All right. So we're here on episode three, Rose the Prude. And I got a text from Patrick's the other day saying the sheer number of bathrobes in this episode. So this morning I said, you know what? I'm going to bring us two matching satin black bathrobes. And Patrick, what you don't know, these are my dressing room bathrobes. And I think yours might have stage makeup on it. Oh, my God. I'm so excited. Are you going to take these with you for Death Becomes Her? Yes, I am. Oh, my God.

I'm wearing Broadway bathrooms, baby. Cheesecakes, if we haven't told you the format of this podcast, it's the Golden Girls Deep Dive Podcast Welcome. And the way that we do this is we are going in order, recapping episodes of the Golden Girls, starting from the pilot. This is episode three. So that's the first part of the episodes that we're making. And the second part is one of us does a deep dive into something from the Golden Girls universe.

Right. And maybe some little mini deep dives sprinkled throughout. Well, that's the idea, right? So it's not just a recap podcast. We are doing deep dives wherever we can. I've got some interesting deep dives actually throughout my episode prep today. I do too. Times two plus one. Oh my goodness gracious. Is this a competition? Well, it wasn't, but now it is. So this is episode three, Rose the Prude. It originally aired September 28th, 1985. Little bit of trivia right here. All right. Lay it on me. Episode eight.

aired, we were in the middle of Hurricane Gloria. Do you remember Hurricane Gloria? Do I remember? Me too. I remember this greatly. Yeah. I remember taping up the windows. Yeah, filling the tub with water. Yes, they predicted that Hurricane Gloria was going to be the worst hurricane of the century. It wasn't. The worst hurricane of the century was the Galveston Hurricane of 1900, where 8,000 to 12,000 people died, making it the deadliest natural disaster in U.S. history. And they're gone. They've stopped listening. They're gone.

But there were major power outages during Hurricane Gloria. And they couldn't watch the Golden Girls. But I was thinking, remember, like, so if you didn't watch this episode and its original airing, which because it was like the hurricane and you didn't have power, I don't know what, like, it's not like DVR was a thing, you know what I mean? Or like on demand. By then, though, you had, remember those pop-up VHS machines? So you would get a blank one, you'd record it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A little bit more trivia about the episode. This is the episode that Betty White submitted for her best actress. I had that later.

later. Oh, no. It's all right. Oh, man. I took your trivia. No, it's all right. Well, the episode was directed by Jim Drake. The writers are Sue and Harris, Barry Fanaro and Mort Nathan. So many men. So many men. So many men working on this like female centric show. But speaking of female centric, we do open with our gals, right? We open with Dorothy and Sophia on the on the

Yeah, you can't do it. You can't do it. On the lanai, playing cards. And I have here, Patrick, that Dorothy is dressed in Betsy Ross cosplay or if an old-timey baseball uniform or a nightgown. That's exactly what I wrote. So, okay, here's a couple of things that I've noticed. We're only three episodes in. It is always midday

on the lanai. No matter what, if it's nighttime inside, they come out to the lanai and it's the middle of the night. So I didn't know what time of day it was. And I'm looking at Sophia and Dorothy. Sophia is dressed for the day in layers. She's got like a purple sweater on with a black pant. The hair is done, the glasses. Dorothy's in a nightgown. And I'm like, whoa, has she not gotten dressed yet? No, it turns out it's like the end of the day. Dorothy's like in her nightgown at about five o'clock. Are they sharing the drink that's on the table? It's a half-consumed...

something or other. It's not a straw. There's a spoon. What is it? I want to believe that it's a Long Island iced tea. I was thinking it looks like maybe it is a mid to late afternoon situation. It's like an early cocktail hour. Yes. I didn't know what time it was, but eventually when Rose enters, we're going to learn that she's like coming home from work for the day. Right. So it's the end of the day, not the beginning of the day, but it's still, I'm going to

say it's before 6 p.m dorothy is in the world's ugliest nightgown really it is like the boston red socks you know uniforms from 1919 as a nightgown it's right it's just this pinstriped weirdness i know and so the other thing too is like they're in miami they are always wearing like ma is in layers for days dorothy's wearing a nightgown that's head to toe long sleeve like isn't it a

they're outside. Isn't it a thousand degrees? Right, in Miami. So what's happening is Dorothy and Sophia are playing gin rummy. And it seems like this is something that they do a lot. And Dorothy's really taking her time. I'm disgusted already. I'm 80. I'd like to live long enough to see the next hand. So Blanche enters and we find that her date's brother is in town and she's trying to get Dorothy or someone to double date with her. Yes. She enters wearing this blue pantsuit. Blanche's clothes in this episode are amazing. She's looking

fierce I gotta say she looks fierce I love that like all the ladies put on a little bit of weight as the years go on you see this on TV where like the pilot episode everyone is like skinny and snatched and then like by season three everyone looks like me you know what I mean

But she looks great in her pantsuit. She has a date that night. I guess the guy that she's going out with didn't know his brother was coming into town and is going to cancel the date on Blanche if Blanche can't find somebody for the brother to go with as well. Exactly. And right in this section, too, Patrick, maybe you can help me with the cheesecake scan because I didn't do a further deep dive on this. But I was a little confused because Sophia says that they've been playing...

Gin Rummy for 30 years and Dorothy hasn't beaten her once. But Dorothy literally just won a hand saying gin. So you have to make a certain amount of points and hands. So, okay, good question. So Steve and I used to play Gin Rummy all the time. And I think it's like Rummy 500. So you have to get to 500 points. Got it. Steve and I, when we lived in Boston, we were so miserable in 2009 and so poor. We would just take our cards and go to the public library and sit and play cards for hours. In silence. In silence.

We couldn't afford to do anything else. That's what we did like on our days off. We would go to the library and play cards, Jennifer. Because it was air conditioned. I know. I know.

Or warm, because you couldn't afford the heat and electric bill. It was the 18th coldest winter on record in Boston. It was one point we came home and there was frost on the inside of the windows. Boston, you cold girl. So Blanche is asking Dorothy, Dorothy does not want to go on the date. No. And on my second time watching this, because the first time I'm watching it, I'm like taking notes, you know, I'm like looking up, looking down, taking notes, whatever. I'm noticing Dorothy is in her full nightgown, but she's got, her face is beat fast.

for filth. She has got thick pancake makeup, rouge like a drag queen, an enviable lip. She is made up. Yeah, of course. She may as well go on the date. I mean, it's cocktail hour. It's cocktail hour. Oh, man. So Rose enters. Yeah, and of course, Bland then tries to get Rose to go. But Rose says, you know, she's not really interested in dating anymore. And Blanche says, now you know that's not true, honey, or you'd let your hair go natural. Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

And Rose explains she was spoiled because she had a long and wonderful marriage to the perfect man and everyone seemed so ordinary after Charlie. Girl, it's been 15 years. Yeah. And then this next part confused me because Dorothy then says, honey, it's just for dinner and Charles would want you to eat. Patrick, who the H is Charles? Charles. Charles.

Charles would want you to eat. I'm like, it's Charlie. Have we called him Charles? I don't know. No, but it's also like, this is where Rose gives this lecture on how all of the men that she's been dating over the last several years act so old. Rose, why do you look so depressed? I'm tired of going out and not enjoying myself. All the men I meet act so old. Last week, I went out with this man that talked for two hours about his prostate problems. LAUGHTER

I lived in Minnesota for 51 years. I never even heard of a prostate. - Funny they don't have them there, it's too cold.

And we got this in the pilot episode, too. Like, they're talking about these men as though their date, like, the men are in their 50s. But the way that Rose says they behave is like they're talking about their prostates. They're cleaning their dentures at the table. They can barely hear or stay awake. Like, it was a different time in the 80s. Then Rose tells Dorothy that she should be the one going on the date, to which Dot says, in the hugest way possible, nothing could be more fun than beating my mother at cards tonight.

And I just have to say, we've got to continue. And Sofia says, what's the name of the game? Gin. And Dorothy collapses on her hands for row Z of the orchestra. It's so huge.

She's doing it real big. I know. And, like, we are going to hear, there's another moment of her losing to her mother that is so funny. She is so mad. I was saying, like, you were saying in the last episode that she's, like, abusive to the roommates because she yells and screams at them. She's abusive in this episode. I have it all marked here. She really has some anger issues. She is really mad about losing Gin Rummy to her mother. Like, if I were Blanche, I'd be like, get out of my house. I mean, I'd be like, get out. I know.

Get out of my house. But Rose agrees to go on the date. She says she knows she's going to regret it. She knows she's going to be miserable, but she's going to go. And I wrote, am I literally the only person in the world who enjoys meeting new people? Like, I would go on a date tonight if somebody needed a double. I'm always up for new friends. So we then segue to the living room. Blanche has just come home, presumably from her date. And we hear Sophia from the other room calmly say, Jen. Jen.

And we hear a crash come from the kitchen. And Dorothy, uncharacteristically angry, storms into the living room. But then, like, the crash means she threw something. Like, she was holding a teapot and she threw it across the room.

Like, Dorothy, you really need to look at your anger issues. Like, what is going on? That's classified as violence. I know. Violence. You know the other thing I keep forgetting to bring up? Two things. Number one, Blanche enters wearing that yellow dress. Yellow. Beautiful. Looking like a millionaire. Her wardrobe is amazing. Yeah, she's fierce. But also, we see in the background, if there's any shot in the living room, that big, ugly vase that we know that Rose is going to shoot eventually. Yeah.

Remember the episode where Rose shoots the vase? In fact, I do. Every time I see it, I'm like, vase, your days are numbered. But yeah, Dorothy walks in and she just like, she's so upset about losing gin to her mother again. Yeah. Sophia comes in holding a handful of cash, right? But this is the part that threw me. Dorothy says, if you listen carefully, mom, not ma, mom, I am not playing gin with you anymore. Is this the only

the only mom we have in the whole series? I don't know. It's like in the pilot, we found out they were from Queens, but for the rest of the series, they're from Brooklyn. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We also get a shut up Blanche in this episode, which I feel like we don't get ever again. It's always shut up Rose. Yes. We need Mer to say shut up Rose. Shut up everyone. I know.

But it's so funny because Dorothy is just like saying she refuses to play cards with her mother ever again. So this is my husband, Steve Tipton. It's like the Steve Tipton-est thing in the entire world. Nobody in the world loves playing games more than the Tipton family, but they take all the fun out of it because it's just about winning. I saw one Tipton throw a handful of Scrabble tiles in the face of another Tipton once. Whoa.

I didn't see that sign of him when we played Trouble with your daughter. Oh, my goodness. Jen brought over the game Trouble one night when she came over for cocktails to play with Daisy. And all of us realized the biggest mistake we made when we started playing that game because it goes on forever. And it's only fun if you're under eight. Yeah. And we all were actively trying to lose by the end of it. And then we kept winning. I know.

Daisy was none the wiser. No, she still wants to play that game every day. You're welcome. Thank you for nothing. But Sophia says, no, no, no, Dorothy, you'll be back because Dorothy is too competitive. And we later learn, of course, in subsequent seasons that Dorothy has a gambling problem.

I know. So that's all tied in. Sophia, wearing her savage dress, says that your competitiveness has always been your worst feature. Then she comes back and says, actually, your ears are your worst feature. And for me, it was the way that she turned to leave and then turned to come back for the insult. Oh, yeah. No, I have down that this is the classic let's beat up on Dorothy and how ugly she is feature in the show. I know. Because it doesn't end there. Dorothy says to Blanche, can you believe that? And Blanche says, no, I always thought your bony feet were your worst feature. Yeah.

It's so mean. The hunchback of Miami Beach. I feel so bad for her. I know. It's as though I live in this house. I'm telling you, I read somewhere that Bea Arthur in season seven, like, started crying and stormed off the set during a table read because she's like, you've all been mean to me for seven years. Really? Listen, she's not made of stone. I have to say she was gorgeous by season seven. I know. She aged in reverse. She was a gazelle. I know.

She was a goddamn gazelle. She was a goddamn gazelle. Oh, God. Knowing how to speak and understand a new language can be an invaluable tool when traveling, meeting new friends, or just even to master a new skill. But it's not always simple when you're bogged down by textbooks and structure classes. That's why so many people trust Rosetta Stone. Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program available on desktop or as an app.

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But Blanche tells Dorothy that the double date was a disaster. Wait a minute, wait a minute. You haven't told me about the double date. It was a complete disaster. Oh, you mean Rose and her guy didn't hit it off? Oh, no, they got along just great. It was my escort who turned out to be the dud.

Next time I'm going to date both brothers before I give one away. The words they use. It was my escort who turned out to be the total dud. And she says it with a real look like she's really missed out on something on her face. You know what I mean? We get the impression that Blanche is not the most generous person in the world. Like remember in the pilot episode where it doesn't occur to Blanche that Dorothy and Rose are going to be concerned about their living situation because she might be getting married until Rose says to her, are you throwing us out on the street? Yeah.

I hadn't even thought of that. Blanche! A little narcissism there. I know. But yes, Rose comes in and says how much fun they had, that Arnie's the most outrageous, unpredictable man she's ever met, to which Blanche says, Oh, he is the most outrageous, unpredictable man I've ever met.

Jeffrey's on a low-sodium diet. I can't remember when I had so much fun. We went dancing at the beach coven. We're gonna go back again tomorrow night. Jeffrey doesn't dance. He says it makes his ankles swell. Honey, I think it's terrific that you had a good time tonight. I have you two to thank for it. Night. Night.

And the thing I love about this is she came in really quickly. And that was key to making the joke work. Really dry. Really perfect. And she did it also while scratching her clavicle. Oh.

You know, it was the perfect marriage of timing, delivery, physicality. She's like, Jeffrey's on a low sodium diet. How do you as an actor, like, how do you be funny as an actor? Oh, boy. You have to have an innate sense of timing for one thing. Experience does help. They say you can't teach comedy, but here's a few things just to think about. Yeah. It's all about the timing. It's about how to know when to underplay something, undercut it.

and sometimes doing it both at the same time. So if you say the line, you'll see all of these women are experts at saying the line and then occupying themselves with a piece of business immediately afterward. There are some coming up in the kitchen scene later to punctuate the joke or to accent it. And here's a perfect example that Blanche is, you know, scratching her neck.

What it does is it sort of softens. It softens the hardness of I'm trying to land a joke. Because the thing about comedy is, too, you don't you want to let the audience come to you. So it's this perfect dance of energy, an exchange of energy with your audience. That's one way to put it.

There's a moment where we're not there yet, but there's a moment in the kitchen and Bea Arthur does this like throughout the series where Sophia will say something usually mean to Blanche. And before the audience even hears it, Dorothy will go, Ma! It's like she can anticipate that her mother's going to say something mean. Right. And we do have to that point, we have a bunch of those. So since we've brought it up and talked about it.

At least from if you see them, I'll tell you from an acting point of view what I think are perfect double take moments or physical comedy punctuating a joke. So anyway, Rose tells us that Arnie, like you said, he's so unpredictable. Do you know what they did, Jen? They jumped a toll booth and Arnie did it just because it was there. He's so outrageous. I know.

Unpredictable. I know. So Blanche makes fun of Rose as she exits and Dorothy admonishes Blanche and just saying like, come on, let her have this. She hasn't had sex in 15 years, girl. And you're always going out with interesting men. Yeah. So Blanche says, name one. How about that coach from the Miami Dolphins? Yeah, that night was kind of fun. The training room, the whirlpool, the adhesive tape.

Name another one. Honey, take a cold shower. The adhesive tape. Like the look on Dorothy's face when she says adhesive tape. And I was racking my brains to be like, what kind of sex games were they playing that involved adhesive tape? I mean. I can't even think of anything. And then Blanche says, name another one. And Dorothy tells her to take a cold shower and go to bed.

And this is one of those double take moments. As Bea Arthur is leaving, the audience is rolling with laughter. She pauses and does a turn back and gets another round of laughter going. Yes. Now this next scene is so good. Dorothy is sitting in the living room grading papers.

And Blanche enters and hands her a jar and says, can you please open this jar of macadamia nuts for me? And Dorothy goes, well, you can't get it open. She goes, well, I didn't even try. I didn't want to risk cracking a nail. Dorothy replies, what are these, claws?

It's so funny. So, Patrick, I need your help in this next thing. So, Sophia enters and says she's going next door to Frida Goodson's and my brain exploded. I know. I know. It's the Claxton of it all. Not to be confused. Yes. Frida Claxton, who's evil with her best friend, Frida Goodson. What is happening?

happening. Please explain this to me. I was thinking the same thing because Frida Claxton also lives across the street, right? She's got the one with the tree growing on her property or whatever. This isn't an episode coming up. Well, no, because if Sophia's friends with her, then it can't be the same person. But I was going to say maybe Frida Goodson got married to Mr. Claxton. Do you think?

Or divorced and went back to her maiden name. I think that's more likely. But they have a club meeting where Sophia and her friends sit around. They take pictures of each other and they send them into the Today Show telling William Scott that they're 100 because they want to be on TV.

Right. Now, for those of you who don't know, for decades, Willard Scott was the weatherman on the Today Show from 1980 to 96. Then Al Roker, you know, took over. Yeah. And he would announce birthdays and special anniversaries. And I'm sorry, I have to say this little deep dive I did, Patrick. Please, tell me everything. Because it's really interesting. I'm fascinated. So I...

I looked up Willard Scott. He's just mentioned y'all briefly in this, but I had to tell you this. Do you know that he himself created Ronald McDonald? What? I know you didn't know this. I'm so excited. I'm obsessed with our podcast. We're doing such good work, Jen. So listen, he at one time played Bozo the Clown. Just pause. I just need you to take that in. Which I'm telling you is what they have up in the makeup chair next to Dorothy Spornak. That's what they want her to look like. Exactly.

So anyway, this is in Virginia. And when Washington, D.C., McDonald's stores, they enjoyed incredible customer service when Willard Scott appeared at McDonald's as Bozo the Clown. So when they canceled the show, of course, there was no more Bozo. So the local McDonald's franchises wanted another clown to drive sales. And they asked Scott to develop a new character. So he went home, sat down and created Ronald McDonald. What? Yes.

Yes. His costume included a small paper cup over his nose, a cardboard food tray worn as a hat, and a cardboard food tray containing a complete McDonald's meal. This is wild. I know. So McDonald's restaurants existed before Ronald McDonald. Yes. You know what? Ronald McDonald does kind of look like Willard Scott now that you mention it. Who knew? I had to include it. I thought that's... Of course. It's Ronald McDonald.

That's wild. I know. That is so interesting. I have a deep dive, a random deep dive in a little bit that's going to blow your mind, too. Okay, I can't wait. So, Sophia, en route to Frida's house, opens the door, and Rose and Arnie are standing on the other side of the door, hugging. And I just want you to know, I had this. Sophia opens the door to Cinderblock Alley. I know.

We love it so much. My apologies to any cheesecake who actually has a cinder block foyer or something. Live your life, cinder block alley. I'm obsessed. No, the cheesecakes are with us on this. It's pretty ugly out there. Anyway. But Arnie and Rose are hugging. Now, they're not making out. They're just hugging. Is that a sexy thing that older people do, do you think? I think older and younger people, it's a gateway to further intimacy, a hug. And they've

I mean, they are holding one another. It's intimate. It is. But why aren't they making out? Maybe they were. We just caught them on the hug. You're right. So, I have a little deep dive on Harold Gould, the actor who plays Arnie in this episode and Miles in future episodes. Oh, look at you, Inspector Gadget. I know.

Harold Gould was born Harold Vernon Goldstein. And I just love, Patrick, that he changed his name in real life just like they changed his name in The Golden Girls. To what? What did they change it to? What do you mean? They changed it to Miles. They changed it to Miles. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, he was born in 1923 in Schenectady.

New York. He was a smarty pants. Yep. He was valedictorian of his high school class. Wow. He's a veteran of World War II. Wow. He fought in combat and had to leave the army for trench foot. What is trench foot? Trench foot is like when your foot, I looked it up, it kind of gets all, uh,

decaying because it's like too wet. It's been like too moist and it can really become a horrible infection. And it's just, it's not good. Yeah, it's very common for soldiers to get that. Anyway, when he returned to college, and by the way, he'd been studying to become a teacher, he switched to be an acting major. He did Summer Stock in your homeland, Patrick of Cape Cod. He did? He did! At the Melody Tent? Probably. Oh my goodness. But then this dumb, dumb Harold Gould...

He went to Cornell. He did? He did. To study what? To get a master's in drama and speech. Wow. And then a PhD in philosophy. Okay, Harold Gould. So well-rounded. Anyway, he started teaching first in Lynchburg, Virginia, and then at the University of California. So we're in California, right? Hollywood. And after four years, he finally started to try professional acting. And he did teach part-time at this point, and he tried to make ends meet by doing a side hustle as a security guard.

But then he slowly started, you know, building his career. Imagine like bumping into Miles as the security guard at your local mall. Right? And again, he's your teacher during the day, you know. But he, you know, he started to get small parts in movies and TV shows and the rest is history. Wow. In fact, this I found the most interesting. He was the original Howard Cunningham in The Happy Days.

Stop it. No, he was. He got that role and it was offered to him like he did the pilot and then he was going to do the show when it finally came around. But he ultimately turned it down because he was doing a play. Oh, my God. And he decided to honor the commitment to the play. Whoa. Would you do that or would you take the TV gig? I'd take the TV gig. Yeah, of course. That is wild. But he was fine because he did well after that. And he's probably best known for playing Rhoda Mergenstern's

He's probably best known for playing Rhoda... We're keeping it. He's probably best known for playing Rhoda, Morgan Stern's father in the Mary Tyler Moore show and then again on Rhoda.

So eventually, Gould would play Miles Weber, our suitor of Rose, in 12 episodes of The Golden Girls. Is it only 12? It's 12, but it was throughout three seasons. Wow. So his presence was felt for a long chunk of time. For sure. And he's so handsome. Yes. And as you know, he also played another of her boyfriends, Arnie, in the third episode of the show's first season. And he also reprised the role of Miles in two episodes of The Spellbinder.

been off the Golden Palace. Oh, my goodness. Which I don't remember, but now I have to go back and watch it. Oh, I remember it very, it gave us Don Cheadle. But then, this is what's amazing, he became Rose's ex-boyfriend because he was married to someone else. Is that right? Yes, but I don't remember, but I'm like, how dare you, Miles? Oh, my God. Anyway, he was a three-time Emmy Award nominee and he passed away from prostate cancer in 2010. He had two sons, a daughter, and was married to his wife, Leah, for 60 years. Oh.

Oh, may he rest. So what a nice, full, well-rounded life. Yes, 100%. And you know, I was going to say this when we get more into the episode. He's in great shape. Like you see him like in his bathroom. Like he really looks like he took care of himself. So they're hugging. Sophia tells them to take it inside because it's not the French Quarter. And then Arnie says to Rose, You'll think about next week, Rose.

I don't love how he says it as a demand and not a question. Yeah, it's sort of a softball delivery. I mean, it's an underhanded pitch, but you're right. He's eager, I guess. He's eager. Yes, yes, exactly. So Rose comes in and Blanche says it looks like Rose and Arnie are getting pretty serious. And then Rose makes a very upset face and runs for the lanai. And this is an area where we do see bitchy Dorothy. Yes. Honey, are you all right? I'll be fine.

Is this about Arnie? No, Blanche. She's upset because they keep changing the taste of Coke. So Dorothy's making a joke here about New Coke versus Coke Classic. Do you remember New Coke? I do, and I remember feeling betrayed. Well, I did a little bit of a deep dive on New Coke because I was very curious. You just go. Tell us. Lay it on us. Okay.

So New Coke was introduced by the Coca-Cola company in April 1985. So just five months before this episode was released. So probably like a month or two before this episode was shot or whatever. Like it's very it's a very topical joke. But the reason they created New Coke was because Coke had been losing market share to diet soft drinks and non-Cola beverages for several years. And blind taste tests had revealed that customers preferred the sweeter taste of Pepsi.

So the Coca-Cola formula was reformulated to make it sweeter and the American public hates it.

Hated it. Lost our minds. Remember how disgusting New Coke was? Yeah. So then within a month of launching New Coke, they repackage original Coke as Coca-Cola Classic and it goes crazy. Yeah. Like, I mean, it blows up the market. It takes all the market share back. And so this led to speculation that the New Coke formula was intentionally gross so they could repackage Coke as Coca-Cola Classic and like get their market share back.

Do we know the answer? Coke says that's not what happened at all. And in fact, New Coke stayed on the market and was rebranded Coke 2 in 1990. And it stayed on the market until 2002. You can walk into a grocery store in 2002 and buy a bottle of New Coke. Wow. Isn't that wild? I have to say, as a kid...

when I drank full sugar soda, there was a period where I did prefer Pepsi because of the sugar. Really? But I'm a Diet Coke girl through and through. I love Diet Coke. And I don't, sorry, I don't, I'm not as big a fan as Diet Pepsi. No. You know? I am definitely a Coke over Pepsi person. Yeah. But you know what I really lost my mind was Crystal Pepsi. Remember Crystal? Maybe I'll do a deep dive on that some other time. That sounds like a drug problem. What is that? Well,

was a Pepsi, but it was clear. So it was like a cola beverage that was clear and it didn't last very long. It's a very like 90s moment. It was only around for like a minute, but it was disgusting. But yeah, so Arnie wants Rose to go on a cruise to the Bahamas and Rose doesn't want to go. Arnie wants me to go away with him on a cruise to the Bahamas. Oh, oh, and you're upset because he wants you to pay your own way.

I'm upset because we'll be all alone in the middle of the ocean on a ship in a stateroom with a bed. Oh.

I don't know what to do. And Blanche cannot make it make sense. She does not understand what the problem is. And a great physical comedy moment. She gives Dorothy a look and a shrug behind Rose's back. This is where we get the classic get out of here. I'll do it. Okay, because Rose says she tells the girls that she hasn't been with a man in that special way since Charlie died, which we know was 15 years ago. And Blanche says... Get out of here. Ha ha!

And it continues. No, it continues. Rose tells him, it's true. Charlie was the only lover I ever had. And her first time was her wedding night. To which Blanche says, get out of here. And then Dorothy says, oh, back off, Blanche. Not all of us are classified by the Navy as a friendly port.

Oh, my God. Do you believe that? I mean, I believe that Rose is telling us the truth that she didn't have sex for 15 years. But, like, is that a thing that would happen? Of course. You think? Yes. Yes. I'm a gay man. I come at this from a different perspective. I mean, not if you're Jennifer Simard. My horny friend Jennifer Simard. No, yeah. But, uh...

But if you're Rose Nyland and many women, yeah. Yeah. You know. Rose says, maybe it sounds strange, but without Charlie, she thought that part of her life was over. And then Dorothy says, until now. And Rose gives like a kid in a candy shop nod. Like she wants to get it on with Arnie. Arnie's hot. I get it. Yeah. And so Dorothy says, you should go on the cruise. You know, if the time is right, then you'll know. And Dorothy says this great thing. Yeah.

I'm not sure I'm ready. Oh, honey, I know what you're going through. The bottom line is, if you take a chance in life, sometimes good things happen, sometimes bad things happen. But, honey, if you don't take a chance, nothing happens. I'm going to take a chance. Oh, that's wonderful. I have to look at my closet. I don't even know what to wear with the first night on the ship. A life jacket and a great big smile. Oh!

There you go. Dorothy's a wise old sage. She's got to be good for something. She's not good at rummy. She can't get a date. She's got good advice. And Rose decides she's going to take a chance. So we come out of the ad and we get this super blurry establishing shot of a cruise ship in the middle of the ocean. Why is everything so blurry? Like whenever we see the interior of a restaurant, it's blurry. I don't know, but it's clearer later. But I did look it up and this is a carnival ship.

We're in the bedroom with Rose and Rose is like looking at her suitcase. And then she like this is the most overacted moment I've ever seen. Remember, she's afraid of the bed because bed equals sex. She hasn't had sex since Charlie. Having sex would be cheating on Charlie. She turns around and literally jumps as though the bed is wielding a knife at her.

And I was like, we get it. We get it, Betty. It's a bed. But then she does probably some of the best acting by doing different alluring poses on the bed, which I thought were hilarious. And by the way, what's our bathrobe count now? We're up to two and three. At least. She's in a

Pink satin bathrobe with little ivory lace collar. And it is like buttoned up to her neck. I mean, like these bathrobes are full coverage. He's not getting in. No. But here's what I love, though, as an actor. This is a comfortable day of filming. Oh, is that right? Oh, my gosh. Yeah. You know, because there's lots of waiting in between filming. You're in a bathrobe or pajamas. Oh, God. Now I'm going to worry about that for the rest of the series. Aren't you cozy in your bathroom? I am pretty cozy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Arnie comes out of the bathroom and Rose, you startled me. And he goes, oh, sorry. Next time I'll not.

And it's a really funny line. Very sweet. This actor really delivers. He's very funny. I wish you could see my script right now because you know what I wrote here? Miles enters. We're not fools. We're not fools. And then they go through this whole thing. Now, I realized this on my second watching. His outfits, so in this instance, his bathrobe and his pajamas perfectly match the bedspread and the curtains. Yeah, they have him in trustworthy blue. Yeah.

That's the Arnie theme. Good old stalwart blue. Salt of the earth blue. You can trust someone in blue. Yeah.

Yeah. And he, you know, he comes out. They're having like awkward pre-getting into bed talk. She's complimenting him on his bathroom. Terry Cloth. Terry Cloth. Just everyone has their bathrobes zipped up to the neck. Every one of them. Right. So he asks her to dance. Yeah. She assumes he means outside. He says, oh, no, he's got a cassette player. Right. And I have to say this, Patrick, space is at a premium on a cruise ship. But by all means, let's have a secretary desk. I know. Yeah.

For all your wax sealed correspondence. I know. Taken by carrier pigeon across the ocean.

I know. And he pulls up the tape recorder and he puts on a Glenn Miller song. I feel like they bought the rights to this one song and they play it in every episode. We hear this song again. Every time there's a dance contest, which happens all the time in this world in Miami, they're always playing this song. Rose talks about Dick Singleton and the Singletones. And do you know that I actually looked them up to see if it was real? Are they real? No, they're not. I wish, at least not I could find anyway. They're the Glenn Miller cover band of Rose's youth. But yeah.

But, you know, whatever happened to, like, going dancing and having there be a live band? I would love to do that. That would be so fun. I'm sure there are. I'd go all the time. But not as much as the big band era isn't as big as it once was. Yeah. Roseland, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Roseland days. Totally. So she tells Arnie that in a lot of ways he reminds her of Charlie and he kind of lays down a boundary. You know, in a lot of ways, you remind me of Charlie. The way you laugh, the way you dance. Yeah.

Even though- Rose, I'm not Charlie. I'm Arnie Peterson from Plainfield, New Jersey. If you like me, it's for who I am, not for who I remind you. I don't know. I think he goes a little far here because I would be like, oh, that's such a nice compliment. Like, I would wait for this second weekend getaway before yelling at Rose and her face basically wags his finger at her with those bushy eyebrows. Like, holy moly. So you're not really good at setting boundaries, Patrick, is what I'm-

Another way to look at it. Thank God I found my husband 15 years ago because I was not real good at the dating. I was not real good at it. But he says, you know, I'm not Charlie. If you're going to like me, you're going to like me for me. That's right. She kisses him, bursts into tears and runs into the bathroom. Yeah, it's a pretty passionate kiss. It's growing. It is. You know, her hoo-ha probably clenched a little bit. She probably got nervous. Yeah.

I'm just, I'm speculating. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's what happens. She runs into the bathroom where she apparently spends the entire night. And we'll get there. But for someone who cried all night, she looks pretty good when she comes out. Not puffy at all. Not puffy at all. Nope. My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big ROAS man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend.

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So now, oh my gosh, Patrick, we're there. So I was saying before we started recording, this is not one of my favorite episodes. I think the scenes with Rose and Arnie are kind of boring. But this is one of the funniest scenes in the early episodes of The Golden Girls. It's the middle of the night. Dorothy is in the kitchen by herself drinking a pot of tea. Blanche enters.

Dorothy is wearing a nightgown that looks like it weighs 40 pounds. It is not the baseball outfit nightgown of earlier in the evening. No. It's zipped up to her neck. I don't know how she can breathe. No, honestly, I texted Patrick the other day when he texted me the sheer number of bathrobes and this stuff. I said, Dorothy later, she looks like she should be carrying a lantern and writing with a charcoal stick. Ha ha ha!

I took a picture and I can't find it. Wait, you said she looked like Betsy Ross and it's so true. Well, the first one, the red, white and blue number. But this one just like she just looks like she's coming in with a lantern and...

You know, the bathrobe is just absolutely unbelievable. You know, since we're talking about her costumes, I didn't say this at the time. Uh-huh. But when she comes out to ask Rose what's wrong, you really get her full art teacher, gym teacher combo. Look at this. Oh,

I know. I know. She always has those like Oxford. I mean, it's just to hide. Just in case the finger paints get everywhere. It's so ridiculous. I know. Anyway. So now Sophia enters as Blanche walks to the refrigerator and Sophia says to Blanche, Watch what you're grabbing. I got a specimen in there. That,

That is a disgusting joke. It's disgusting. I didn't like it. I didn't like it either. But I do like that we're up to bathrobe count number six. And how about this? They say, do you want some tea? Because when I can't sleep, the first thing I think about is getting caffeinated tea. And it's black tea. I watch her pour it. I'm like, oh, my God, that's Earl Grey up in there. Oh.

But Dorothy wonders what Rose is doing right now. And Sophia says, you mean you wonder if she's doing it right now? But, you know, the conversation is kind of about like, did they push Rose to do this too quickly? And I, before it gets unbelievably funny, I was really noticing like if this were real and they really were like real people living together, how

amazing it is to have like this sisterhood. Like they get to like be up at two in the morning talking about their friend and their later in life issues and what they're all dealing with. It's why we love the Golden Girls. That's what my friends and I are planning. Those of us who didn't have children, we're just going to all kind of live in an area near one another and take care of each other. I love it. I love it. Even if we did have kids. I mean, those of us who are friends. Yeah. I have a kid. Can I come and visit at least? Yeah. We're going to put her to work. Daisy, get the bedpans.

Daisy, Patrick has bed sores. Roll them over. Rub daddy's feet. Rub daddy's feet. Oh, God. So Blanche is talking about how she can't figure out how Rose waited 15 years to have sex. And Dorothy asked Blanche how long she waited after George died. How long did you wait after George died? Till the paramedics came. Oh, my God.

And that's one of those moments where she says the joke and then Dorothy screams, Ma, before the audience even laughs. And it makes it twice as funny. It makes it twice as funny. However, as the first comedian, I would wonder how I would feel that I was double tapped by the other comedian in the room because till the paramedics came, would get a very big laugh. Totally. And you could argue by saying, Ma, that taping.

tightly, then it's a bit steppy on someone else's joke as well. Except there's no other way to say ma. It wouldn't work if you waited. So as scripted, that was correct. Yeah. And I think it's funny because it really shows that it's like Dorothy's grown up with this woman her whole life. She knows that she's going to say something inappropriate. She hears it before everybody else does. And it's really, it's

It's so funny. Would you lead me in? Because you know what's coming next. Yes, totally. Blanche wants to answer the question. The question was, how long did you wait after George died? And Dorothy and Ma have that moment. But Blanche is sort of staring off into middle distance. And she answers the question by saying, As the Reverend was performing the funeral service, I knew for sure that he wanted me. Oh, God.

I have here Bea Arthur with a perfectly timed teacup drop. And that's how you punctuate a joke, ladies and gentlemen. Ew, it's so funny. I'd always known that there'd been something between us. Sometimes from the pulpit, he'd be talking about sin. He'd look straight at me.

It's so funny. She is so flawless. I know. But the writing is so perfect. And I always wonder whenever there's like a really funny joke in the writer's room, like when they come up with it, is it like an instant high five? Like, what is that like? Well, I'm sure there's a high five, too, when they see the marriage of what the actress does with it. For instance, would you please be the voice of Dorothy coming up? Because when we get to the part where Blanche says, well, we could finally consummate our long and

Learning passion. Dorothy leans in and in the lowest voice possible goes, and... So bizarre. Full baritone. It's full baritone. And I imagine that like it was written. I don't think there was a direction to like say it like that. She just sees the word and and realizes she can like really ham this moment up. Yeah. If you ever grace me with the opportunity to be in this booth with Tina Fey, if that ever happened,

Yeah. I have so many questions about the writer's room because I feel like when you come up with a great joke, is it just everyone's just on the floor or is it like expected because that's your job? You know what I mean? That's a great question. I'm dying to know. But I have to say, Rue has a perfectly timed tea sip when she says, It took about 10 minutes. He wore his watch and his socks. I never saw him again. LAUGHTER

And then she sips her tea. Again, she punctuates her own joke with a physical action. It's very smart. It's so good. So now they're talking about like Dorothy's first time after Stan. And she says, you know, it was a terrible time. She put on a ton of weight. She says, plus I wasn't 20 years old anymore. And Dorothy says this a lot.

She says this in the pilot when she was talking to the teachers in the teacher's lounge. When you're 20, no matter what you do, everything stays where it's supposed to. Now you lean over. It looks like somebody let the air out of your face. And Blanche does not understand what she's talking about. So Dorothy tells Blanche, lean over a mirror and look at yourself. So Blanche gets up to do it. And Sophia knows exactly where the mirror is. What a weird place to have a mirror, by the way, in the tool drawer. I know.

But OK. And by the way, I have to say, yeah, this is where I first heard of this as well when I watched this episode and I did it. And it is horrifying. I mean, I learned this for the first time and it's true. Look, I know that we're not supposed to put a lot of like stock into looks and all of that. And I think beauty standards are ridiculous. But I love that my husband is taller than me because we all know the best angle to take a picture of is from above.

Yeah. So my husband is always looking down at me. Like if I had a short king for a husband who was looking up at my double chins, you know what I mean? And instead, like this, it looks like you had a facelift. I know. When she holds the mirror above. Okay, we got to crawl through this next part. It is so funny. Blanche puts the mirror down on the counter to do what Dorothy said, to stand over the mirror and see how awful she looks. So she puts it down, stands over it, and she goes, Oh my God. Oh my God, Dorothy. Why didn't you tell me about this before?

Oh, my God. It sounds like it was recorded on a separate day. Like, it is so beautifully over the top. Oh, my God, Dorothy. Why didn't you tell me about this before?

It's so good. Like from within her soul, she hates herself in this moment. And it is so funny. And again, comedy is about the gaps that the audience fills in. So what we're seeing in her horror in that moment that makes it so damn funny is thinking of the hundreds of men that she has been riding on top of, thinking that she is just living, you know, that she's just...

They're just like, yeah. And they're seeing just horror at what they're seeing.

I hadn't thought of it like that, but you're absolutely right. Me and Steve are only going to have sex standing up from now on. So he is constantly staring down at me. But then Dorothy tells her to flip the mirror over like you're on your back. And then everything slides back and you look like you just had a facelift. Blanche does it and she goes, Oh, you're right. I'm gorgeous. Oh, you're right. I'm gorgeous. I'm gorgeous.

And then she says, I'm going to start meeting men laying down. And Sophia goes, I thought you already did. Yeah.

Oh, man, it's so good. So we're back on the boat with Arnie and Rose. I guess it's the next day and Rose is still in the bathroom. Still in the bathroom. I mean, if you think that like they left the dinner and dancing at like 10 o'clock, came back to the room, let's say they were ready for bed at around 11. It's now early the next morning. Rose has been in that bathroom for 12 hours. Well, they're older. They were probably up by six. I guess that's true. I'm going to say.

They don't sleep as long as when they were in college. Well, Arnie's in a tracksuit. And once again, the tracksuit matches the drapes. That's right. Arnie blue. It's a new color at Benjamin Moore. But he's back to tell her, like, come out of the bathroom. There's another cabin available. I'm going to move there. And then he says, but I got to get into the bathroom first. I can't go anywhere without my Actifed. I had to look up what Actifed was. I used to take Actifed. It's like a sinus allergy medication. And it surprised me that he said that.

Because while it's for allergies, at the time it was really used like if you had a cold, but it would also make you incredibly drowsy. Oh, is that right? Make you really sleepy as far as I remember. Which is ironic because do you know why they stopped making it? Why? Because people were using it to make crystal meth. People are creative out there, Jen. Arnie. I know. There's something about that guy. Plainfield, New Jersey. Yeah.

That's why they had to stop making act of it. But Rose comes out of the bathroom and she's hiding her face. She doesn't want him to see because she's been crying all night. And she's like, I look terrible. And he says, Rose, you couldn't possibly look terrible to me. I left my contact lenses in the bathroom. But a bump.

But they sit on the bed and, you know, she's apologizing and she's saying, I thought I could do it, but you were going to be my first since Charlie. And he's like, oh, I figured. And he remembers, you know, it was the same thing when his wife died because Rose is saying she feels like it would be being unfaithful.

And he felt the same way, though he fought those feelings and had sex anyway. Which is funny. It's like, that's the difference between men and women. We can do it no matter what, you know? And he talks about his love for his wife, Molly. They were together for 34 years. He never slept with another woman. And this bothered me. He says, I looked, I enjoyed. I patted a few bottoms. I was like, wait a second. I was like, with consent? Because this

Sounds very much like madmen, like, patting the secretary on the office on the way out. Yeah. I don't know, Arnie. We'll get there, but there's a lot of stuff that wouldn't, should never have flown, but definitely doesn't fly now. Not today. Yeah. But then we learned something tragic. We learned that Arnie's wife, Molly, was killed by a drunk driver. A drunk and a Chevy. God damn it, Winifred. Yeah. Jesus. My God. I love, like, in the writer's room, Winifred was like, you know what? Let's kill her by a drunk driver. Yeah.

Let's just put it in and see what he does with it. But good on them because they have this really heavy topic and they know how to save the moment with a joke, right? For a year, I was a zombie. I dressed, I worked, I slept. For fun, I ate onion sandwiches. That's funny.

Yeah. But then, you know, like his daughter sat him down and said, like, you know, mom's up there looking down saying, like, I'm in heaven now. What are you waiting for? I can't enjoy heaven if I'm worried about you. That's really beautiful writing. Mm hmm. You know, and he says to Rose, like, what would Charlie say? And she says probably the same thing Molly says. Then, you know, we get to the crux of the matter and Rose says, I might kill you.

And I have to tell you, Patrick, that this was the last episode I watched with my late mother. Oh, my God. Really? Yeah. She was sick. You know, she would go in and out of this nursing care facility into the hospital nursing care facility. But my mom and I used to love the Golden Girls. And we watched this in her room. And there's two things in this episode that made it significant to me. I'll get to the second one later. But in this moment, the reason why I remember, I was trying to memorize the episode in this moment of trauma. Yeah. And I...

I remember when she said, you know, there's something else. Oh, I might kill you.

My mom laughed so loud and my mom had a Patrick Hines laugh. It was just the best laugh. And so I still hear it and remember it. Well, I take that saying that I don't like this episode. It's not my favorite episode. Well, no. You know what? Now, we've reframed it for you. Yes. Like a good progressive. You had your mind changed with new facts and information. That is absolutely true. Anyway. But this is where we learned that Rose, Charlie died inside of Rose Nyland. Yes.

Like they were doing the sex and he died during the sex. It's probably because she was riding him from on top and her face looked horrible. He couldn't look at her. But Rose is trying to convey that she is so good at sexing that she kills people with it. She kills people with it. That's right. And another excellent joke is, well, if you haven't made love in 15 years, that's a possibility. But it's...

But I mean, it is, you know, Rose is like carrying around the survivor's guilt of her husband dying during sex. Rose, you poor thing. Right. And of course, you know, he says, I'm fine. I had a checkup. I got the heart of a 12 year old. But he gives her the agency. He gives her the choice. It's whatever you want to do is fine with me. I just like being with you. Yes. And then here we go. Are you ready? He goes to pack his stuff to move to his new stateroom. She says, yeah, sit down. Hold me.

And the thing is, this is where I had that note. They were very proud of this poignant, serious moment on the show. And to your point, and it's because of this, that Betty White, this is the one she wanted to submit for the Emmy Awards, and she won. And she won. Those very earnest moments are always so uncomfortable for me. Like with Blanche, like a damned fool. You feel like you're a part of an intimate moment that you don't want to be there for. I agree to a point, but I also wonder if it's

comforting for the demographic that mirrored these women at that time. Totally. I wonder how, you know, not every widower can speak for every widower, but I wonder how a widower might feel having that represented. You know what I mean? Totally. Because it's not about, like, Arnie makes the point that he's not there for, like, a quick

fling. Like, he really likes being with her. It's beautiful that they find each other like late in life. Now, we know Arnie's not sticking around or whatever, but like, I love the idea of like love in your third act. You know what I mean? Yeah. So next scene, we're back at the house. Dorothy is sitting on the couch. Sophia comes into the living room wanting to play cards. She's doing that thing with the cards where she's like fluttering them in Dorothy's ear. And she's, and Dorothy's just ignoring her while reading a magazine. She says, buzz off. I'll spot you 25 points. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

She's saying, Dorothy's like, why would I play cards with you? The only person who got any enjoyment out of it is you. Now we're at the second poignant reason why this show meant a lot. Then my mom and I looked at one another in this moment. It's because Sophia says I like the talking. Yes. I like the talking. The what? The talking. You and I had some of our best talks over a game of gin rummy.

I don't know why, it just seemed easier for both of us to open up while we were playing cards. Your Aunt Jean was the same way. During a pinochle game, she told me that she swam nude in a pool with Charles Boyer. Aunt Jean, you never told me that.

I would have gotten around to it, but we stopped playing cards. And I have here, Patrick, I had a note here saying this mirrored my relationship with my mom because we used to play cards all the time. Wow, that was the game. We played various games. She's the one who taught me how to play different card games. And we used to do it on this living room couch in my house. And we'd just talk. I would listen to her, you know, her troubles at work. And I would tell her about my troubles at school. And, you know, she was my best friend. Aw.

Oh, honey. I'm just so grateful. You know, and I don't know, bring the room down, but I actually, until this podcast, hadn't watched the Golden Girls since then, since 2014. Wow. And I used to watch it all the time. Since 2014? 10 years ago? Yeah, because it was the last thing I watched with my mom and it was kind of sacred. So I sort of feel like she's smiling down and blessing us with this. What's your mom's name? Yvette. What a beautiful name. Yes. Hi, Yvette. We need to dedicate this episode to Yvette. Oh.

Thank you. She's a cheesecake in the sky. Oh, my goodness. She is a cheesecake. She had a great rack. Did she? My mom had a great rack. Oh, well, it runs in the family, apparently. She's a cheesecake.

So Blanche comes running in from Villa and I. She says Rose is back. Her taxi just pulled up. And I thought it was really funny that like in an age before cell phones, like they weren't in communication the whole time Rose was on the cruise. That's true. If you think about like today, like we'd just be texting each other. Well, that letter with the wax seal that the carrier pigeon brought from the secretary desk is going to get there in a few weeks. Any day now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So before Rose comes in, Dorothy lays down the law. No fun dot.

Lays down the law. None of our business. None of our, whatever happened between them is Rose's story to tell. And if she doesn't want to tell, I don't want people wagging her finger at everybody's face. No embarrassing questions. No. So Rose enters. She's back. And without skipping a beat, Sophia goes, So did you and Arnie play find the cannoli? And Bea Arthur does a Rosie fainting couch moment. For the back of the house. She faints back on the couch.

She even knocks into the lamp on the table behind her and like sends the lampshade flying. Well, she's a big girl. She's a tall girl. As they've told us. Oh, my God. Oh, my goodness. So Rose sits down to tell them about the trip. The food was great. The weather was perfect. The activities on the ship are nonstop. Masquerade balls, hootenannies. I had to look up what a hootenanny was. Yeah.

It's like an evening of people and folk music and sometimes dancing. There you go. Only sometimes. Thanks, Deep Dive. Tours of the engine room, fashion shows. I was trying to imagine like putting like the cruise director putting together this like list of things to do. Fashion shows. Yeah. They hired models. Yeah. Jazzercise. Vegas night, Monte Carlo night, Rio night, Riviera night. Who cares, Rose? Did you and Arnie hit the sheets or not? Who cares, Rose? Did you and Arnie hit the sheets or not? Who cares?

Dorothy is, she's mean. She's loud and she's mean. Pops up out that, those of you who can't, you can't see me. What did I do? I just popped out of that couch. Oh my God. Screaming. The one who lays down the law. Yes. And Rose says, some women don't kiss and tell. Oh shoot, honey, that's half the fun.

So Rose gets up to leave. Dorothy says, you don't have to tell us, but if you leave this room and you come back, we know you did it. And if you don't, then we know that you did it. So Rose is walking to a room to unpack and we're all standing there with bated breath. Bated breath. And Rose walks back into the room and they all scream. Like a slap in the lap, right? Yeah.

And she tells us it was wonderful. Oh, God. And Rose explains going on the cruise changed her life and made her realize she can care about a man without feeling guilty. And so she goes back into the room to unpack and Blanche says she's going to go help and she's going to get all the juicy details.

And I have here highlighted, I really like this line that it's for my own life. And I think for all of us, we can relate to it. And this is one of those poignant moments that I think works, which says it's a nice feeling, you know, that when one part of your life is over, another part can begin. Totally. That's so true. Right, because it's been 15 years, Rose. 15 years of dates with men who want to talk about their prostate. Yeah.

Which Rose didn't even know existed. So Sophia and Dorothy decide to play Persian Rummy. Which I looked up. Is it fun? It's like a version of, you know, there's just different kinds of rummy. And I had no idea. I mean, I guess at some point you get bored with gin rummy and you got to go to Persian rummy. It all confuses me. I know. I know.

And then, whatever, it just ends with Dorothy and... It's an ellipses card game. Yes. Right? Because they're doing that thing that Sophia likes where they're playing cards and they're talking. Well, they do both have a lot of walls up around them, right? I know, it's true. And so it's like the card game is somehow this avenue to let the intimacy in because they're just all like defense mechanism, defense mechanism, and they just forget to be defensive. Yes, that's right, because they're very focused on winning or whatever it is. Yeah.

Oh, girl, that was so fun. Episode three. Don't you know, it's dedicated to your mom. Yvette. Thanks, Patrick. Of course. So, girl, right after the break, you're going to give us your deep dive on the life and amazing career of Miss Betty White. It's truly an honor. Right? Yeah, totally. Who am I? I...

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TikTok, it's deep dive o'clock. Deep dive o'clock. I love that. That's new. I just came up with it. Okay, I'm here for it. Well, I'm super excited about this one. Me too. Because she is someone that I really look up to. Who is she? Tell the people. I don't know if you've heard of her. Her name is Betty White. Beatrice Betty White. No, it's just Betty White. Just Betty White. Elizabeth.

There is a lot of overlap between these women. Is that right? Yeah. I was surprised to read it. I can't wait to tell you about it. Oh, I can't wait to hear. Well, let's start with little Betty. Baby Betty. Baby Betty. Baby Betty. Baby Betty. Say that 10 times fast. Okay. Baby Betty was born in Chicago, Illinois in 1922. She's a city girl. Yes, but she moved to a different city at toddler age. At two years old, she moved to Los Angeles. Oh, wow. So she grew up.

Up in L.A.? She really did. Wow. And that comes into play later, which you will hear about. Yeah. And everyone knows, if you know Betty White at all, that she was an advocate for animals her whole life. Well, she came from a family of animal lovers, which I did not know. Do you know that one time, I'm sorry to interrupt, but one time Bea Arthur was on an episode of Judge Judy as a witness for PETA. Really? There's an episode of Judge Judy that Bea Arthur testifies on. Did you all hear how Patrick hijacked my deep dive? I'm sorry.

He's so obsessed with Beatrice Arthur. Beatrice Arthur. She had her... God damn it. I love it. No, I love it. I did not know that. Wild. That is wild. Yes. All right. So her dad, to make ends meet, during the Depression, started making transistor radios. Who knew? But, you know, it was the middle of the Depression, so nobody had any money to buy his transistor radios. Great way to get into work, Mr. White. Good job, Dad. So he made a barter system, which was very common in the day. And the barter system was he would give them a transistor radio for a dog. Right.

What? And then he would cook the dogs. Then he would eat the dogs. And Betty White is known for eating dogs for the rest of her career. They were big animal lovers, and she saw the problem. She's like, listen, radios don't eat, but dogs do, which costs what? Money. Anyway, she said it wasn't the best business in the world. What was he doing with the dogs? They just loved them. So they built kennels in the backyard for the dogs. She said at one point they had 20 dogs. 20 more mouths to feed, Mr. White. It's a good business plan.

It sounds very like foreshadowing of a St. Olaf story, honestly. Doesn't it? 100%. Yes. You can see it. Anyway, in her childhood, she dreamt of being a forest ranger. I know. I know.

I just immediately saw her in like a Smokey the Bear, like National Forest, like with the brown and the gold star. You know, but at that time, girls didn't do that kind of thing, you know? But I also love that they kind of touch upon that in the later Golden Girls. Like it sets her up for season two, episode eight, Vacation. Oh. We're on the shipwrecked on the beach. Oh, yeah. And she's like, no, listen to me. She's like, I was the most decorated pioneer ranger in northern Minnesota. Yeah.

And I was like, I don't think we're allowed to talk while we work. So I think this is part of that, personally. All right. So when she found out, because sexism, that she couldn't be a forest ranger, she decided she was going to be a writer. Oh. Yep. So she wrote her graduation play from grammar school. And of course, she wrote herself into the lead. Oh.

And she started doing theater. So she was writing and also doing a little acting. And so after high school, which was in 1939, she started working in theater. Wow. Yeah. She made her professional debut at the Bliss Hayden Little Theater in Beverly Hills. Wow. I know. I mean, not all of us have the community theater. Right. Yeah.

Right. In the movie capital of the world. Right. Yes. But here we are. It sounds quaint, but let's not forget it's Beverly Hills. Right. Beverly Hills. So here's some overlap. Like our pal Beatrice Arthur, Betty also helped with the war effort. Oh. Yep. World War II service, 1941. Did you know that Betty White drove a truck? No, but it's perfect. She...

She joined the American Women's Volunteer Services. So it was a volunteer job, but she was given a uniform and she had this job driving supplies that, you know, that they needed. Okay, great. So that's great. So now after the war, this is around 1947, we're talking. Which war is this? This is World War II. Okay.

This is the Civil War? No, this is World War II, 1941. Great, perfect. So after the war, Betty found radio work. This was kind of her start. Oh, right. This is 1947. But this is such a sad story. The studio told her she wasn't photogenic enough to be on camera. Oh, no, she has a face for radio. That's why she started on radio. And she, talk about this, she took it on. She was quoted in Harper's Bazaar saying, from the start, I knew I had square jaw bones. Ha ha ha.

And all the things they tell you are not photogenic. No. She says, I wanted to look like Lana Turner and I just didn't. I mean, I'm not saying this to be mean. I'm just saying this objectively. Yeah. If Beatrice Arthur can get herself onto television, so can just about anybody. So can square jawbones Betty. Square jawbone Betty. Square jaw Betty. Square eyeballs Patrick Hines. That's exactly right. I heard that on another program once. All right. Oh,

Ultimately, she did become a very versatile radio personality. And the thing that they loved about her is she could switch so easily between comedy and drama, which, hello, that's what she's so good at. On the Golden Girls. On the Golden Girls. She's so good, you know. They all are, really. Yeah. But I do think, and you and I have a bit of a disagreement about this, but I do think Betty White was the most versatile radio personality.

Sure. She's just my least favorite of them all. I get it. I get it. Not because of her, but just because, like, to me, she's, like, the least funny or whatever. I agree with you in the sense that when I was younger, I was swept in by that naive delivery because we didn't see it before. I think because I know the episodes so well, I can see those pauses from a mile away, like a big fat softball across the plate. You know, it's, like, in slow motion. So I feel like I've grown...

less in love with and enamored with her, with Rose. Uh-huh. Because I know the episode so well. I'm just like a big, brash Dorothy gay. You know what I mean? Well, Dorothy's my favorite. Yeah. And especially later in the series. For sure. When she does that, we talk about it all the time, but that undercutting. Anyway. Yeah.

Getting back, let's talk about Big Betty. Yeah. What did I call her? Square Jaw Betty. Square Jaw Bones Betty. Yeah. So her big break in television came just two years later. It was 1949 when she joined Al Jarvis's, get this, five and a half hour long, six days a week live variety show. What? Yes. It was called Hollywood on Television. Five hours a day, six days a week? Live. Oh my God. Do you know how hard that, like what if we were doing this live? No. We're only on hour two and a half. I know. That's, I can't imagine it. I know. Wow. Wow.

Anyway, in 1942, this is really big news. When Al Jarvis left the show, Betty ended up by default being the sole host and the first female host of a daytime chat show ever. Oh my God, really? Yeah, by default because he left. Wow. But,

In 1952, she has her own show, The Betty White Show. She's really groundbreaking. A variety show. Yeah. Oh, my God. I never knew that. Me either. I mean, you're like Ellen DeGeneres and all these. But like in 1952, Betty White had her own TV show. Amazing. I really was blown away when I read that. And on this show, too, she had to ad lib and she sang on the air. Forget this. Five hours at a stretch. I mean, five days a week. Didn't.

tell me how many days a week. Who cares? No, it is because it's that show. Wow. Wait, six days a week. That's crazy. Six days a week. Six days a week. And you're going to love this because you often talk about the patriarchy and homosexual rights. So get this. She hired a female director. Oh, wow. This is in 1952. And she hired a man often called Arthur Duncan.

All right. And he was a tap dancer and he was often a guest and she was widely criticized for featuring a black man so prominently. No way. She recalled that there were threats taking the show off the air if, quote, they didn't get rid of Arthur because he was black. Oh, my God. Oh, yeah. And she refused, saying, quote, he stays. Live with it. Oh, yes, Betty. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Oh, and this is sweet. So Duncan, this man, he credits Betty for his early television appearances. Wow. That she's probably been one of the nicest people.

greatest people he's ever met, you know, and that she launched him into show business. Without her, those doors would have been slammed. And did he become like a famous dancer? Not famous, but he worked, you know, because of her, he was able to continue to make some change. Amazing. I know. And she received, by the way, her first Emmy Award in 1952. Wow. And this was for Outstanding Female Personality. And this also I didn't know. She was up against Jaja Gabor. Wow. And they were at the same table. And then when they would come around to the tables with the awards, and

And Zsa Zsa was sure she had it in the bag. So she like takes out her purse and she's powdering her nose and putting on her lipstick. And, you know, Betty White's like, I didn't think I had a prayer. And, you know, all of a sudden they announced her name instead of Zsa Zsa. And she was just in shock. She's like, I couldn't believe it. And I don't think Zsa Zsa could either. You know, but how presumptuous. Like, I'm kidding.

Wow. I'm going to get ready. I know. So she did the TV circuit at this point. And these were some pretty famous things. But she did Password. Uh-huh. All right. And the host, Alan Ludden, is someone that she later married in 1963. She also was a regular on the Jack Parr show. Did you know? Okay. Very famous. And she was known for her witty comments. And just the audience just ate her up. They just loved her. Like she had a fan base going much earlier than we knew her.

Because I really only know her a little bit from Mary Tyler Moore and the Golden Girls. Right. But she had a long, a long runway. And think about it. When the Golden Girls came out, a lot of those older fans, they've known her forever. Totally. And was like a stalwart, you know, person that they trusted. And that comes up later. Yeah. Oh, this blew my mind. So she turned...

Wow. Yeah. The job that Barbara Walters took. Oh, my God. Now, at the time, Barbara Walters wasn't the Barbara Walters, but still, we know what happened to Barbara Walters. And the reason why is because she didn't want to move to New York because she loved her California so much. That's amazing. Yeah. So here we are in the 60s, and she's now married, and they are good friends with Mary Tyler Moore and her husband. Oh.

Brad Tinker, who was the producer of The Mary Tyler Moore Show. And once during a script reading, this line producer named Ed Weinberger proposed adding a new character to The Mary Tyler Moore Show called a Betty White type. Just like Bea Arthur, right? They auditioned several people. None of it was going well. And finally, they decided to offer the real Betty White the part.

Well, it's like, why didn't they just call her in? It's the same thing. I feel like we hear this all the time. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Even little old me, that happens to me sometimes. Does it really? Yeah, a gen smart type. It's like, well, I'm right here. I'm right here. Ha ha ha ha.

So she joined in 1973, for those of you who don't know, Sue Ann Nivens, which became a very popular character. She was a delightful, catty, like really man-hungry woman and very different from Rose Nyland. Yeah. Was her second favorite character that she ever played. Yes. And she got back-to-back supporting Emmys for that role. Wow. Two Emmys for that character. But.

As we all know, what solidified her legacy, Patrick, was when she joined the Golden Girls in 1985. And this is her favorite character. She's quoted as saying, I like Rose Nyland, the best of all my characters. She said that flatly. Said, Sue Ann is a close second. And I remember watching this interview in real time. Oh, wow. Because I've always said this for years.

I saw this, like I said, like in real time. She said, Rose was not dumb, just terminally naive. Uh-huh. I remember. Do you remember? Do you ever see clips of her saying that? No, but that, like that. I remember when she said that. Because it's, I would imagine, you tell me as an actor, it's much more interesting to play naive than stupid. Yeah.

Right. And the thing is, whatever you want to call it, naive or dumb, you need to be a very smart actress to pull that off. Yes. Kate Rockwell and I, Kate Rockwell is a friend of mine that I did Mean Girls with on Broadway, and she played Karen. Yeah. The quote unquote, not a dumber one, right? Yeah. Kate's one of the smartest people I know. Yeah. She's brilliant. And you have to come at a character who's naive from 30,000 feet. Yeah. And to not...

comment on it. Because if you don't know how to play it, it can look so false, you know? And so she was just, yeah, anyway. So she said terminally naive, which I thought was really wise. But this is what I love. She was very generous talking about her castmates. And she's saying we're like four points on a compass, she said, that they're east, they're west, they're north, they're south. And she thinks that's why it all worked so well. They fit together so, so well. So the casting of Blanche Devereaux and Rose Nyland. This is, I think, the most interesting part.

So with Estelle Getty locked in to play Sophia, the creative team shifted their attention to those two roles. And so at the time, Betty White was the most famous, you know, for her recurring role on The Mary Tyler Moore Show as Minneapolis's homemaker neighborhood nymphomaniac Sue Ann Nivens. She played that part, you know, pretty brilliantly. And Rue was best known as the meeker Vivian Harmon on Maud. Yeah. So like happens in most of the cases, they typecast these women. Right. In these roles. Right. Right.

So they were reading the script and, you know, Rue was reading it. She's like, ooh, I think I would be better as Blanche. And they said, no, it's going to Betty White. Sorry. Did you know that? I did. As a good homosexual, of course. I'm like, wait, what? And she also knew, and this is what I love, she knew the script was a winner. Yes. I often say that with, you know,

shows that I do, like Death Becomes Her. It's a winner. You can know just from reading the material or hearing the songs. And she knew. But she's like, oh, but it's reverse. And they're like, no, sorry, it's going to Betty White. So when she went into audition, this never happens. But they kind of agreed to director Jay Sandwich switched up the roles and the audition process. Jay Sandwich agreed that she should audition for Blanche once she came into audition for Rose. And then she just shut the room down.

She shut the room down. I mean, like, as a good gay, I've known this piece of trivia my whole life. And so, like, you watch the episodes and you try to imagine, like, Rue McClanahan as Rose or, like, Betty White as Blanche. And I guess you can kind of see it. It would have been too much like their other characters. And you look at Betty White's wide-eyed... I have a hard time picturing anyone else playing Rose in particular. Totally. And they either broke the news to Betty White and she was like, OK.

you know, and she sort of went with it and, you know, and even she agreed, no, this is working, you know? Yeah. You know, she had nothing but high praise for Rue McClanahan's portrayal. And so were they saying to Betty White, like, you still have a job, you're just going to be a different character? Yeah, Betty remembered when Jay broke the news to her, he felt that if, you know, if she were to play another nymphomaniac, that the audience would think it's Sue Ann all over again. Exactly. So she sort of, so she's like, okay, I'm, you know, I'm okay with it. Yeah. And she also gave him a lot of the credit for, you

you know, literally making it sense that there isn't a sarcastic bone in Rose's body. And she started to really understand. And I don't know if you got this impression, but it seems like everyone really liked working with Rue, that she was just kind of a great gal. I'm going to do a whole deep dive on the Betty White, Bea Arthur feud. The only line I can think of in my mind right now is Rose Natalie going, can you believe that backstabbing slut? Well,

Well, like I said, they're very supportive of one another. Rue McClanahan said, I always said to Betty White, you have those little orphan Annie eyes. There are these two white ovals with nothing inside them that see straight through the head. And she said Betty did a beautiful, funny job. Oh, that's so nice. And Betty of her friend Rue, she calls her Ruezy. Oh, yeah. Ruezy took Blanche out into orbit where I never would have. She flew off like a butterfly with that role. Oh.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. In fact, we'll do this in another show, but one of my favorite Blanche moments where she's just like, the egg yolks in the bag. You know, little ball of sunshine in the bag. Yeah.

All right. So, you know, she had a vast career beyond The Golden Girls, some of which included The Golden Palace, as we talked about. She was on Suddenly Susan. She was on The Practice. Yes, Dear. She received Emmy nominations for her individual appearances. She won an Emmy in 96 for Outstanding Guest Actress in a Comedy Series for The John Larroquette Show. Oh, my God. Mm-hmm. I remember her in this next movie. I loved her in this movie. Lake Placid. Yes. With the little alligators. Oh, my God. And what a bitch. She's the one that's been

feeding them.

Yes. Horrible. She joined the soap opera, The Bold and the Beautiful. She did? Yes. She made 22 appearances. Oh, my God. I know. She was on Bringing Down the House a little earlier in 2003. You know, and it just went on and on and on. In fact, like 2010, she was in an original sitcom, Hot in Cleveland. Do you remember that? Yeah. Well, that's what I was thinking. Was that like, because it went on for like many seasons, didn't it? Five? Yeah. I mean, it's just like wild. It's like when you think about like the span of her career, the Golden Girls was just like

Not even in the middle. It was just like just a thing that she did. You know, it's iconic. But like she went on to have like so many more things. Well, and also don't forget her SNL appearances. You know, she hosted the show. She ended up kissing Bradley Cooper. Oh, my God. Everyone went bananas. That was in 2015. You know, everyone just loved her. She was nominated for guess how many Emmys she was nominated for. I'm going to say seven. She won seven. Wow. But she was nominated 24 times. Oh.

Oh, my God. You mean like total career-wide? She was nominated 24 times. And she's known to, she's the first woman to have received an Emmy in all performing comedic categories. Wow. Really a record holder. She also holds, this is this I love, she holds the record for the longest span between Emmy nominations. Oh, wow. It was a span of over 60 years. Oh, I see. Yeah, from her first to her last. She received a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame and was inducted into the Television Hall of Fame in 1995.

Wow. And just to show how beloved she was. Remember how I said she was really a staple and that, you know, people really trusted her. So they did a 2011 poll and it revealed that she was considered the most popular and most trusted celebrity among Americans. Wow.

Wow. Among all Americans. Yeah, beating out like the likes of Denzel Washington, Sandra Bullock and Tom Hanks. What year was this? This was in 2011. Wow. The most trusted celebrity. Yeah, well, there's also, you know, that safe age too, where you just turn into something else. You know, like she definitely went into that category, you know, love him or hate him, but

that was some of Bernie Sanders' appeal. Oh, yeah, for sure. There's just this reverence sometimes you have for a person who's just older and they're just a bit untouchable and they're just, you know. And what's amazing, too, is that she didn't stop with the Golden Palace. She had a whole other TV show that she did. Yeah, well, she did the Golden Palace. She just worked endlessly. I mean, what a wild, what a wild life and career. Mm-hmm. Now, in addition to her lifetime of

animal advocacy. She was a real supporter of the LGBTQIA. Yes. And, you know, and their rights. So now, Patrick, you're going to love this. OK. At 88 years old, the U.S. Forest Service at Washington's Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts made her an honorary forest ranger. Oh, my God. That is amazing.

And she had, by the way, she wore that Smokey the Bear hat that you mentioned. She did? She did. And in an emotional acceptance speech, she said of her parents, quote, they would be more proud of this than of any other award I have won. I knew you'd do that. Thank you for being a friend. Now, on Christmas Day, December 25th, 2021, White suffered a stroke. No. And on the morning of New Year's Eve, December 31st, she died in her sleep at

at her home in the Brentwood neighborhood of Los Angeles at the age of 99. And she was, it was 2021? Yeah, it was so recent. Wow. But also like Christmas and New Year's. Thanks, God. Like, ow. Um,

Her death was met with a lot of sympathy and tributes, of course, from around the world. The United States Army released a statement as she had volunteered during World War II. That's amazing. And I love this. The Martin Luther King Jr. Center also offered their condolences and praised her for her early support of racial equality. Wow. And that's the end of the square-jawed bone deep dive of Betty White.

That's funny because I imagine her face is a little round. I don't see the square jawbones. I know. We're all so hard on ourselves. You're beautiful, Betty. I know, Betty, you are.

Cheesecakes, before we let you go, join the Facebook group, okay? Yeah. Yeah. Golden Girls Deep Dive Podcast Discussion Group. It's so fun. We're in there all the time. We're hanging out. We're making new friends. Everyone's making new friends in the Facebook group. That's what it's all about. And I like it when we just talk about life, basically, like what I had for dinner last night. Totally. Totally.

All right. And please follow us on Instagram and TikTok at Golden Girls Deep Dive, at Patrick Hines underscore, at the Jennifer Simard. Also, Cheesecakes, follow and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. So this helps you remember when you follow the show, you get it automatically, but it also helps other people find the show. If you scroll down and click that little thing that says write a review, we just need you to write like a sentence and it really helps the algorithm. It jumps us up on the chart so people can find us. That's right. Say Jennifer has nice resticles. Yeah.

Also, Cheesecakes, check out my other podcast. It's called True Crime Obsessed. I make it with the divine Jillian Pensavalli. We recap true crime documentaries. We've been at it for like almost eight years now. It's super fun and funny and sassy. Once again, True Crime Obsessed. Find it wherever you get your podcasts. Also, I just made this up. Thank you for being a friend by telling a friend about the podcast. Wow, you're a goddamn genius.

You know that you have that friend that's obsessed with the Golden Girls. Tell them about the podcast and then listen along with them. Yeah, the more the merrier. We love you, Cheesecakes. Thanks for hanging out with us. Bye.