Isn't It Romantic (Season 2, Episode 5)
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Find a shoe for every you at your DSW store or DSW.com. Hi, Jennifer Simard. Hi, Patrick Hines. You came wearing your bushy tail hat. Yep, my little bunny rabbit hat. Full bunny rabbit, of course. Jeez, guys, you can't see it, but Jenna's looking real cute. I don't know how you're doing it. 15 shows a week plus this girl. I don't know how you're doing it. Listen, you know, she works hard.

Hi, Cheesecakes. Welcome to the Golden Girls Deep Dive Podcast. Do me a favor, Cheesecakes. Join the Facebook group. It's the Golden Girls Deep Dive Podcast discussion group. It is such a fun place to be. So fun.

fun. Sometimes you post videos from your dressing room from death becomes her. Every now and then. Every now and then. Yeah. And it's just a great place to be. Make new friends, get all the updates on things that we're doing, share your golden girls memes. Yeah. Well, girl, what are we talking about today? Today, it's an episode called Isn't It Romantic? Season two, episode five. It was written by Jeffrey Dute, directed by Terry Hughes, and it aired November 8th, 1986.

So, first of all, Dute is how we're going to say this? D-U-T-E-I-L? I actually looked it up on Prenonce.com. I forgot she's French. And I have in parentheses D-O-O-T-E-A-Y. Or Dute. Dute. I had a memory of a pun I made in last week's episode that you did not think was funny. And I was like, but that's so funny. And you're like, but I'm not a pun girl. Yeah. Sorry to say. Okay.

I worked with a remarkable actress, singer, dancer at Mean Girls and also super kind, super beautiful. You've seen her in a million things. I'm not going to tell you her name. She just loved her puns and she would come up to me with a new one every day. And I'd be like, yay!

And she loved them. That's so funny. And so I'm not going to burst her balloon, but for me, not so much. Well, listen, I was going to say, I'm saving this for the end, but as far as Mr. Dutay, the writer of this episode, goes, I wanted to look into why they made this episode. It's a very interesting episode, and it's a very interesting story as to how it came to be. So wait, let me see. You got a mini-diddy? I got a mini-diddy at the end, in fact. Okay, great. We're already going back on our word. Okay.

Well, listen, this episode aired, like you said, November 8th, 1986. We got some current events that happened this week. We did. Shall I go first? Yeah, take it away, mother. So on the day that this aired, Andrew Lloyd Webber's musical Song and Dance closed at the Royale Theater on Broadway after 474 performances. And that musical starred Margot.

my idol, Bernadette Peters. Yes. She won a Tony Award for this performance. And two fun facts, the Royale Theater has since been renamed the Jacobs, and that's where I did Company on Broadway. Oh, my God. And if you go to my Instagram page under my stories, I think, you know, where I'm singing. Yeah, like the highlights. The highlights. I was invited to sing at a gala in her honor where I got to sing...

her song, Unexpected Song, which was from this show. Yes. For her. Thank God I had sung it in my youth enough times that it was in such a long-term memory bank. Yeah. Because that, I think, overcame any sort of nerves that you obviously have when you're singing in front of your idol. And you guys are friends, right? Yes, we're friends. I'm just so, but I guess I hesitate to say that because I still can't believe it. It's like people ask if we're friends. I'm like, I don't know. I think I like her. I think we're friends.

Yeah, we are, though. And she's just lovely. She gave me a... You hesitated. You hesitated. You know what I have hanging right beneath my Tony Award nominations? I have her self-portrait that she's quite an artist. And she drew it for me when I left Hello, Dolly! She did? Yeah. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, she knew I'd love that. Well, listen, I've got one other thing that happened. And it's germane to this episode.

because as we all know, this is the lesbian best friend episode. So on the very day this episode aired, November 8th, 1986, an out gay Catholic priest named John McNeil defied a Vatican directive that he remained silent about the subject of homosexuality. Now there's backstory here. This is a really interesting story. The backstory is that Father McNeil had become famous in 1976 when he wrote and published a book called The Church and the Homosexual.

It was the first extended nonjudgmental work about gay Catholics, which I didn't even know existed. And my mother was a gay Catholic. There were no gay Catholics. Come on. Get out of here. Judas looked a little odd. Oh, no.

But the book was originally published by the Vatican. So this book was given the blessing by the Vatican. They were super into it. It was all about exploring the relationship of, like, gays in the church. And the idea of the book was sort of meant to further the understanding of gay Catholics in the church. And it was meant to sort of make that relationship better. The book made McNeil famous and an instant icon of the gay rights movement. And like I said, initially, the church had approved of it. But the next year, they reneged their support and overruled.

ordered McNeil not to speak publicly on the subject. And he agreed out of a deep love for the Catholic Church and his feeling that the church needed more time to come to terms with gays in the church. Now, that all happened in like 1977. By the mid-80s, Father McNeil felt a need to break his silence. So he'd moved to Manhattan and...

And he was really involved in the AIDS crisis in New York. Like, he was really working with people with AIDS and homeless people in Harlem. And he was, like, really passionate on this subject. So the AIDS crisis was the first thing that made him feel like he needed to break his silence. And then also the Vatican had published an official document called, quote,

on pastoral care of homosexual persons, which defined homosexuality as basically an intrinsic moral evil. And so on the day this episode aired, McNeil gave a page and a half long statement to the New York Times condemning the Vatican document and the church's position on homosexuality as mean and cruel. And he had let them know, he had let the Vatican know that he was planning to do this. And they said, if you do this, you will be expelled from the order of the Jesuits, which is like the order of priesthood that he was. He was...

quickly expelled from the order of the Jesuits. He was still technically a priest, but he could only perform a few of the official priestly functions after that. And then he died in 2015 at the age of 90. You know what? I had a girlfriend tell me this recently or ask me this question. She's like, Jen, would it be so bad to be the bad girl? You know, you grew up being the good girl. Right.

Be the bad girl. Like, it's okay. You know, like, sometimes it's okay to question authority. You know, I grew up with my father was a teacher. It was really ingrained in me. You know, you do that. But sometimes, hey, folks, it's okay. Good things come out of people who question and who speak back to authority.

power, especially when it's, in their opinion, incorrect. Let me tell you, I'm going to talk a lot about my mom in this episode. And one of my mother was an incredibly religious person. She was an out lesbian. She loved being a Catholic. I was an altar boy all of my life up until I was in high school. I loved being a Catholic. I loved being an altar boy. My mother decided she had to leave the church because of their stance on homosexuality. Our priest, who was my priest all of my life, came to our house.

came out to my mother as a gay man and said, we stay and fight. And my mother said, no, not this lesbian. Not this lesbian. But shall we get to the episode proper? Yeah, let's do it. ♪

All right, so we open with Sophia positively racing into the living room with a VHS tape and a bag of popcorn. She is so horny, this woman. In the foreground, we have our floater. Yes. The TV with the VCR. We don't see it in every episode. And she takes the tape out of its sleeve, puts it in the VCR and starts watching. Yeah. Dorothy enters wearing what I describe as a diarrhea brown and marinara sauce red sweater. A signature cowl neck.

70s colors. But I said, I do think it's pretty. You know what? It's not like the brown doesn't bother me this time. It's the marinara red. Okay. The red brown combo is not working for me. I like the shape of it. Yeah. And it does look good on her. She comes in to sit down. She asked her mother what she's watching. Hi, Ma. What you watching? I don't know. One of those Steven Spielberg movies.

That's not a Steven Spielberg movie. What are they doing? You know what they're doing. We had that talk when you were 12. No, I can't believe this. You rented a dirty movie? Dirty is in the eye of the beholder. Okay, maybe that's a little dirty.

Her mother is watching porn. Her mother has gone to the video store, rented porn, to come home and watch it on the public TV and eat popcorn while doing so. Well, that's why I was like, what is the end game here, Sophia? Are you just going to masturbate in the living room? Do you know what?

Do you know what I mean? Yeah. My whole thing here is that A, Dorothy, who we learned last episode has had sex with three people in her whole entire life, is absolutely disgusted by the idea of porn. Yeah. And Sophia, I honestly think, remember we learned that Sophia didn't know she was going to get a period and she didn't know it was going to stop. I think that Sophia is watching these as an exercise of learning what people do. She hears these sounds coming from Blanche's bedroom, but she doesn't know what's going on in there. I think this is an exercise in like,

How do people actually have sex? Well, that's an interesting theory, Patrick. I think she knows exactly what to do. I like your masturbation theory. I mean, seriously, what are you just going to watch it? What are you going to do? And also, can we just say that just the idea of walking in on Sophia masturbating in the living room? Oh, listen, look, I will just say this. When I was in college,

I had a roommate, his name is Eric, and he was a straight guy, wonderful, like the most wonderful guy ever. One time, this was back when we had those TVs with the VCR built in. Yeah. That's how old I am. Yeah. And one day he turned on my TV and a gay porn just started playing. Yeah. And like, I wasn't embarrassed by the existence of the porn in my VCR, but it was like, oh my God, my straight best friend is now watching a man give a blowjob to another man. Yeah. And it was very awkward. It was awkward. Yeah.

I'm just saying, Sophia watching porn in the middle of the living room. I know. Well, Dot picks up the remote, but instead of turning it off, she hits the wrong button. Right. It's a comedy of errors. Right. Because just then, Rose and Blanche enter. They've been shopping. Rose holds a shopping bag. Blanche has a plant. Now, I have a note about this. Blanche is holding this potted plant the way that they sometimes have pregnant actresses hold potted plants in sitcoms. It looks like she's trying to hide something. Maybe she is. But we know she can't get pregnant from the last episode.

I know. That's true. And it was such a big potted plant. It was as though she was out on Cinderblock Alley. Like, it's time to out with the old and in with the new plants or something. Well, it's the wrong button, as I said. And she fast forwards the tape. Wrong button, that's fast forward. Oh, my. What are they doing? I know what they're doing, but I never saw anybody do it at that speed. It reminds me of my Uncle Ricky's rabbit farm. Oh.

That's reverse, Dorothy. I did that once. It was his birthday. It was his birthday. Do you know what cowgirl is, Patrick? Is it when they sit on top? Right, but their back is to the person's head. Oh, what's the advantage of that? Well...

What's the advantage of that? If it's porn, that the camera has a better view of all the plumbing of both parties. Oh, God. So interesting to learn how and why people do things. I told Steve that I was very confused about the three hours that it took Blanche to have sex with that one guy and how you were not confused. No. Steve was also not confused. No.

I was like, oh, I guess it's just me. So Dorothy finally manages to turn it off, right? And she tells her mother, says, Ma, we did not get a VCR so you could watch dirty movies. To which Sophia says, I'm 81. What are you worrying about? You think I'm going to find someone down at the center to do that with? Which got me thinking. Yeah. About sex over the age of 80. Oh, sure. You know, because I'm like, surely. That's like two weeks from now for me. Yeah.

Well, here's some misconceptions regarding interest in sex amongst people over 80. We got a mini-ditty on the sex of reading. Yeah. So the first misconception is that older adults are neither sexually active nor interested in sex. So there is no reason to ask them about their sexual health. However, although the frequency of sexual activity tends to decline as we age...

older adults are, hello, still sexually active. In fact, in a U.S. study of people aged 75 to 85 years who were sexually active, 54% reported having sex two or three times per month and 23% reported having sex one or more times per week. Wow. Get it? Yeah. Right? So, I mean, you know, and it's more than just sexual intercourse. You know, it can be, you know, many different things. It can be the reverse cowgirl finding the G-spot. Listen, I'm learning so much

today. Additionally, this misconstruction ignores those whose sex partners have passed away or has a serious health condition and ignores older people who are LGBTQ. It's just a gross generalization. And the fact of the matter is people over 80 do have sex in its history. And you should know it definitely is because the rate of STD transmission amongst older individuals is skyrocketing. No!

Listen, they started building like retirement homes just for the LGBTQ community. And I was like, I hope they got bowls of condoms in there like they do at the clubs because you're going to need them. And listen, because we're there, I have a little ditty on the VCR. Oh, great. So like when you said, remember the TVs with the VCRs inside? I was like, oh my God, VCRs.

That was positively Star Trek-y. That was the future, Patrick. The height of, I know. The thing is, it feels like the VCR is so new in this episode that Dorothy doesn't know how to use it. But they were, I mean, we bought my first VCR as a family in 1984. Okay. And they were. Yeah. They were only a few years old at this point. There was a time when you had to have the remote control plugged in via cord to the VCR. Yeah. And I had the one, the first ones weren't the kind that just...

pop in the front. They were the kind that, that thing would pop up and you'd slide the tape in. And those things actually were tanks. We had that one longer than most of these others that break down. How'd you know my nickname in high school? Tank? Oh no.

Before VCRs, there was only live television, right? Yep. Forget DVR like we have now. Oh, yeah. Please. But prior to the VCR, watching videos at home, it was non-existent. TV was completely over the air. I've said it before that everyone got so excited the one time The Sound of Music would air a year or the one time The Wizard of Oz would air. Totally. A bit of television, yeah. Yeah, it was really great. But the VCR changed this. They were affordable and it made this at-home viewing possible when and where you wanted it, right? Yeah.

The first ever VCR was actually back in 1956. Wow. It was $50,000. Oh, my God. Which is $325,000 today. Can you imagine spending that? Just to be able to watch Hannah and her sisters at home. When you wanted it. Totally. I missed the one viewing.

Of Hannah and her sisters every year on ABC. What I remember for the most from Blockbuster is like Hannah and her sisters was always available. Yes, yes. By the mid 1970s, the big players were there, you know, Sony, JVC. They pushed their technology. JVC made VHS technology what they call open patent, which dramatically lowered the price of the home VCR. Oh, wow. So that's a little bit of background on that.

Well, we now learn that Dorothy has a friend coming to visit. You know, Rose is asking, when is Jean coming? Dorothy says she's on the way from the airport. She just called. And like right from the jump, Rose really wants to make sure that Jean's going to have a good time while she's visiting Miami. What?

When's your friend Jean coming? Oh, she called. She's on her way from the airport. Oh, I hope she has a good time while she's here. I remember how tough it was for me the first year after Charlie died. She says she's getting better every day. How long were Jean and Pat married? They were together about eight years. Wish there was something I could do. I know! I'll make my famous ice cream clown sundaes. With little raisin eyes and the sugar-cone caps. If that doesn't fill the void, nothing will.

Rose says, how long were Gene and Pat married? And Dorothy says they were together about eight years. So, you know, we know because we've seen these episodes a million times. This is Dorothy's lesbian friend. Pat was her partner. But she doesn't say they were married. Not Dorothy's female partner. Gene's female partner. Hey, as far as we know. As far as we know. And Rose, of course, has great empathy. So she comes up with an instant idea to make her famous ice cream clown sundaes with little raisin eyes and sugar cone caps.

First of all, my note here is why are you going to ruin an ice cream sundae by putting raisins on it? I mean, blah. You know what I mean? I worked at Friendly's. It's a very New England, Massachusetts thing. Yeah. And when we would make the cone sundaes, it was like the scoop of ice cream, Reese's Pieces for the eyes. Now that I can't get behind. Of course. Come on. Raisins, rose, cone sundae.

Go do a reverse cowgirl on Arnie Somewhere Girl. I love Friendlies. I know, me too. I really do. Friendlies was the absolute best. This is where we learn that Jean is a lesbian because Rose has left and Dorothy is alone with her mother. Yeah, and we know it's going to be serious because she slaps her quadricep and gets up pacing. You know, and Sophia immediately knows her daughter so well. What's the matter? I'm a little nervous about Jean. I mean, she's a very special person. I don't know if she's going to get along with Blanche and Rose. You mean because she's a lesbian? Oh,

Oh, Mom, she's not a lesbian. How did you know? I've known since you two were in college together. She didn't even know in college. How did you know? A mother knows. Do you think I should tell Rose and Blanche? Jean is a nice person. She happens to like girls instead of guys. Some people like cats instead of dogs. Frankly, I'd rather live with a lesbian than a cat.

What I love about this episode, these lines never get a laugh. They're not meant to be funny lines. They're just true. It's just real. You know, this is where we learn that Jean and Dorothy have been friends all this time. Yeah. That's a long time. And it's really interesting. I talked about this in my deep dive on the Phil Petrillo episode. Yeah. Because so

Fia is so accepting of Jean and just talks about this like it's no big deal and I knew the whole time and who cares and why should anybody care? Whereas her son Phil may or may not have been trans but was living as a woman and so Fia had a much harder time with that. And I've seen this in real life too. Like I've seen parents...

of other people be totally supportive of their kids' friends being gay. Yeah. But then when their own child comes out, it's a much different journey. No, it's NIMBYism, not in my backyard. Exactly. You know, the not me. It's, yeah. But I also think this, a lot of that too, as we know, so the episode can happen. Yes. And this to me strikes me as

Estelle Getty's influence on Sophia. Totally. Because this is definitely Estelle Getty. Yep. And we'll get so much more of that in this episode. So the doorbell rings, Dot answers, and it's her friend. It's Jean. And like Jean comes in and like, I gotta say, you know, I noticed this more in another scene. Jean is beautiful and she's

so feminine. Yes. And I think that that's a choice. I think that that is done on purpose. Oh, it is. There's a moment with her and Rose later where Jean is just like so beautifully feminine and Rose is like manspreading and like super butch looking. Yeah. And I think that that is done on purpose. I think that they are addressing stereotypes. Well, they are. In fact, I do a deep dive on the actress who plays Jean later. So I'm going to say this little piece here instead of there. But

that was definitely a conscious choice. Yes. To play her in a way that it was not identifiable whether or not she was straight or gay. Yes. She's just a human being. Yes. She's just a person. And let me say this. I didn't know exactly when I wanted to say this. I've seen this episode 14,000 times. It did not occur to me until preparing today for this recording how much Jean reminds me of my mother.

Oh, my. Because Jean is an we're going to learn is an out lesbian living her life. But she's straight passing. My mother was exactly that. OK. Exactly this time, 1986. My mom was fully out of the closet. We were living. You know, she left my dad. We were living on Cape Cod. My mom was a fully out lesbian who was straight passing that everybody in the world would just assume was straight. If you didn't know her in the context of being my mom was one of those people who had to come out to people openly.

over and over and over again. Yeah. And so this storyline is very familiar to me. Okay. It feels very much like my mom. So Sophia is genuinely happy to see Jean. She really likes her. You know, you were always a terrific girl. Dorothy, why can't you be more like Jean? And then she says, scratch that. Oh. Yeah. And so Jean right away is asking where the roommates are. And this is where Dorothy gets a little bit uncomfortable. Um,

Jean, that's what I wanted to talk to you about. I don't know quite how to phrase this. The lesbian thing, do you keep it under your hat or what? I mean, you know, what I mean is... I know what you mean. You didn't tell your roommates that Pat was a woman, did you? No, well, they just assumed that Pat was your husband and... Well, listen, Dorothy, I'm not embarrassed or shamed of who I am. Hey, you know your friends better than I do. If you think they're the kind of people who can handle it, I'd...

prefer to tell them. You think they're the kind of people who can handle it? I'd prefer to tell them. Just then, though, Rose enters with the ice cream clowns with sugar cone hats for everyone, to which Gene says, it'll be our little secret. And it's so funny because these ice cream sundaes are really intricately made. I mean, like,

Lightning fast clown Sunday work there. Lightning fast. And it's like, but they look like real ice cream sundaes, you know? And like Rose put like, she really put the effort into them. And then, you know, she goes to give them to Gina Dorothy. Nobody wants one. Sophia does. Sophia does. But I'm like, what is she going to do with these three other ice cream sundaes? She's going to go throw them away? To me, it was just like Rose made these beautiful ice cream sundaes and now nobody wants one. I'm like, give me three of them, Rose. And then Blanche comes in. Oh, hello there, Dorothy Blanche.

Blanche, this is my friend Jean. Niceties all around. Now, I think it's interesting that Blanche isn't immediately competitive with this other beautiful woman in the house. That doesn't surprise me because in her narcissistic mind, no one's as beautiful as she is. The only time, I think it's the next episode when Big Daddy brings home the widow, the young woman that he's...

That threatens her because it's competition for his affection. Uh-huh. That's interesting that you say that because Blanche does look amazing. And she's immediately very friendly with Jean. She wants to hang out with her. She wants to take her out. I know where all the best bars are. I know where all the best clubs are. I know where all those men are. To your point earlier, even though they didn't make a joke about lesbianism a few moments ago, they start making those here. Yes. She says...

We're gonna have so much fun. I know where to find the best restaurants, best nightclubs, the best men. Lunch. Oh, I'm sorry. Was that insensitive of me? Maybe you're not ready for men yet. You don't know the half of it.

Like, it is very funny. But once again, though, I mean, I think it really is true that if you were a straight passing person, you have to come out to people all the time. Which also, even just hearing that, it's upsetting. You know what I mean? My friend Kathleen was like that. You know, she was my age, you know, and she was a Wilhelmina model. Right. But I guess what I'm saying is, so what if you're not feminine looking or more masculine looking? The stereotype in reverse. You know, I know plenty of women who...

who are with members of the opposite sex, right? People assume they're lesbians. Why exactly? Because they have short hair or because they're... What kind of job they have. They're like a UPS driver. Right. So I just wish stereotypes didn't exist. Is that what I'm saying? I agree. It was funny when my mom and her wife got married, my friend Mike and I went to be with them when they got their marriage license because they were going to be the first people in our town to get a same-sex marriage license. And it's Cape Cod,

where every single woman has a short haircut and one of those like L.L. Bean vest jackets. And Mike was like, oh my God, everyone at Cape Cod looks like a lesbian, which is true. Dorothy says, Jean, why don't we put your suitcase in Ma's room? Ma's going to sleep with me. And I'm like, again, with the sleeping arrangement. I know.

I know. We also, like, we never really establish what Jean is in town for. Like, is she just here for a visit? Yeah, it seems like. Yeah. I think so, because let's, you know, probably to heal her soul a little bit. I mean, she's still grieving. Yeah. It is just funny, the sleeping arrangement. And it's, you know, the fact that Jean is gay is like an added element. Is it like, would Jean normally be sleeping with Dorothy, but because she's gay, like, Ma's going to sleep with her instead? I mean, I think, I'll speak for myself, it's...

Sure. Like, because they make no bones. It's very casually said later when they're playing cards that, you know, you can bunk with me tonight. Yeah. It's like, that's kind of the thing we try. We try to tell people, like, just because you have to change in a locker room around some

on someone gay doesn't mean you're going to all of a sudden catch gay. Totally. Like, oh, you're oh, you're gay now. Like, you know, it's like Jesus. It's funny, though, because straight men would never sleep in a bed together. You know what I mean? Like if this was a show about like four roommates and they were all straight men and somebody one of their friends came to visit, none of the two of the men are bunking up. And women would. Women would. I'm trying to think like with my straight friends, like I mean, I would I mean, obviously I would have no problem with it. And I don't think

ultimately they would have any problem with it. It's undeniably sort of intimate to share a bed with somebody. Yeah, that's what I wanted to say earlier too, is like, I don't know that I would simply because I'd sleep better alone. Like I'd rather sleep on the floor probably. Totally. You know, just because, because sleeping with someone is so intimate, has nothing to do with sex. It's just like, ugh. I know. I mean, it's like-

Totally. Move over, please. Could you stop breathing? Your breath's a little loud. Do you mind? What's funny about that is, and maybe I'm alone in this, but like I would feel much more comfortable sharing a bed with a gay friend or a straight male friend than I would with a female friend. Because I feel like I don't know what women do when they go into the bedroom and they close the door. I don't know what that's like. It's interesting you say that. I think the only...

gay friend I would feel comfortable with is my best friend, Rob. Yeah. I originated I Love Your Perfect No Change with Rob. Oh. And I mean, we've slept in the same room. Rob Sapp? No, no. Because I'm available to share a bed with Rob Sapp anytime he'd like to. No, Rob Rosnowski. Rob, if you're listening. Rob Rosnowski. DM me on Instagram, girl. I keep saying his name and you keep trying to tell me.

Rob Rosnowski! Did you hear that, Rob? I would sleep with you and expect no sugar. Totally. My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big ROAS man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend.

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Getting back on the saddle isn't always comfortable. Good news is Sierra has massage guns. And chafe wipes, too. Discover top brands at unexpectedly low prices. Sierra, let's get moving. So sleeping arrangements are made. Everyone goes to bed. Next morning, okay, we're in the kitchen. There are two big things happening in this scene. The thing that I cannot get over is Blanche's face.

pharaoh bathrobe. Do you remember this bathrobe? Yes. It looks like it weighs 300 pounds. It is the most dramatic thing I have ever seen. It's velvet. It's silk. And it was like especially compared with Dorothy's Civil War nightgown. You know what I mean? Exactly. Like Blanche, they're all in their nightgowns and like sleeping clothes or whatever. And everyone else looks normal. Blanche looks like she came dressed like a pharaoh. It is absolutely, it is stunning. It is beautiful. It is gorgeous. But it is

Such a choice. I just got it, by the way. I didn't have anything about the specificity of her nightgown. But you mean Pharaoh as an Egyptian Pharaoh? Egyptian Pharaoh. Because when you said Pharaoh, I was like, I was picturing the grain. No. I was like, what? What?

No. Next time I'll take a picture and send it to you. Yeah. It is the most dramatic over-the-top thing I've ever seen. I'm ashamed of myself. All right. The other thing that is happening in the scene is Dorothy's napkin acting. Did you see this? No. Because they're eating breakfast. So Dorothy is like, every time it cuts to Dorothy, she's doing this. It doesn't mean dabbing the corners of my mouth. Oh.

And she's doing the lips. Oh, my God. Sometimes Bea Arthur is so committed to the bit. Uh-huh, uh-huh. You know what I mean? She was full in. She's like, they're not going to believe we're eating breakfast if we're not dabbing the corners of our mouth. I love it. Oh, look at you. Sherlock Holmes. I know. The observational skills. I watched it three times. I got to go back. I know. I got a napkin assignment and I've got a nightgown assignment. Look at that nightgown. It is bananas. But they're all discussing their plans for the day. I'm kind of like, wait, why is Jean here? Because Dorothy, her best friend, isn't planning to spend the day with her. I know.

You know? What do you get planned? Well, I don't know. What do we have planned? She's like, I don't actually hang out with lesbians outside of the house. I only sleep with lesbians. But yeah, but Blanche is like, Jean, forgive me if I'm dwelling on the subject of men, but don't you think it's about time you planned something special? If you know what I mean.

Oh, I couldn't. Oh, come on, it's been a year. Of course you could. Believe her, Blythe, she couldn't. I know just how you feel. I couldn't even think of another man for years after my husband died. That's exactly why you have bad muscle tone.

Blanche cannot get over the fact that Jean is not, like, just even if Jean were straight and just not ready to date yet, Blanche cannot stand it. No, it doesn't compute. And she's like, it's been a year. You know, Rose is like, listen, I get it, girl. You know, I couldn't even think of another man for years after my husband died. And Blanche says something that I think is true. It really, she says to Rose, that's exactly why you have bad muscle tone. But I was going to

say, you know, it really does help your muscle tone. Sex? Well, you're doing it for three hours at a clip, girl. Allegedly, Patrick. Allegedly. Three hours at a clip? I'm just saying, but it really does help your adductors. That's the inner thigh. Thank you. You are sexing longer than you're doing that show you're doing. If I were having sex. If you were having sex, you're right. Yes, I would be doing it perhaps for three hours. You're right.

But I'm not. Anyway, I just thought that exchange between Blanche and Rose was so... That's what your muscle tone is about. Blanche, like, you're at the gym every day. We see you at the gym one time in this entire series. Right, when she was trying to have a date with Dirk. She was on the living room floor doing sit-ups and she goes for a jog.

Right. Right. Oh, my God. And then, of course, the silver workout clothes. Well, that's what I was talking about. Oh, yeah. Right, right, right. Well, but now we learn that Jean was raised on a dairy farm. Yes. Rose positively loses her fucking mind. Loses her mind. Now, Betty White takes this opportunity to hit Bea Arthur so hard. I was like, it is downright dangerous on this set. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. She's hitting her so hard. So hard. And I was like, I was just imagining, like, in rehearsal that Bea Arthur just decked her, you know? Yeah.

She was owed a few. Oh, 100%. I haven't eaten a big breakfast like this since I left the farm. Really?

Really? You were raised on a farm? Until I was 17, a dairy farm. Wow, a dairy farm? Just like me. Oh, did you hear that? Gene was raised on a dairy farm. I didn't know that. Why didn't you tell me Gene was raised on a dairy farm? I was afraid it might be too much excitement. Me, did you hear that? Gene was raised on a dairy farm. I didn't know that. Well,

Why didn't you tell me Gene was raised on a dairy farm? So Dorothy and Blanche are now that the conversation has moved on to dairy. Yes. Blanche and Dot are gone. I mean, it's kind of like how I imagine parents might feel when they have someone come over and all of a sudden that person's great with their kid. I'm like, oh, thank God. We got a break. I'll be in the parlor drinking. Parlor drinking.

But, you know, they have this back and forth about, like, milking cows. Yeah. You know what I mean? Rose invites her out to see a matinee at the movie theater because she doesn't have to be in to work until a little later today. Yes. And Jean's like, hey, that sounds great. Now, I got a little ditty on dairy farms because I was just,

Sort of my whole thing has always been I've always been under the impression that if you don't milk a cow, it'll die. That like cows need to be milked or else they will die. And that that's why we milk them. I am incorrect, Jennifer. OK. Yeah. So my note here is like if we don't milk cows, will they die? Like do they explode? Like do they just fill up with milk like a balloon and then explode? The answer is apparently no. Apparently there's like an internal limit.

If you don't milk a cow, it gets so full of milk that there's like a little button that like it stops producing milk. Okay. Cows are geniuses. The other thing I learned was apparently we don't know why we ever started drinking milk in the first place. Huh? Did you know this? Apparently the practice of milking cows, they weren't even cows. They were like the cow ancestors. Dates back 9,000 years. And I think the early adopters of like drinking dairy from animals were people who were starving.

And that they saw like the offspring of the animal drinking the dairy and they didn't have any food. So then they started doing it too. But humans were never meant to consume milk beyond infancy. To this day, 68% of humans are lactose intolerant. Yeah, I believe that. And stop pretending that you aren't everybody. You know what I mean? Nobody has a milkshake and then has like a great rest of the morning. You know what I mean?

That's so funny. It's true, though. Like, have you ever not had a stomachache after having, like, a big glass of milk? Yeah, well, I drink lactate milk for that reason. I mean, that's why everybody drinks oat milk or silk or soy milk or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, that's my titty on the dairy industry. I love it. Well, now, you're going to like this, Patrick, because I need you to explain a joke to me. Oh, great. Rose is saying...

I remember when we first got our milking machine, I hooked Molly up to it, flipped the switch, and she dropped like a rock. Oh, luckily she wasn't electrocuted. After that, she was no good for milking. But she certainly became the most popular cow during mating season. No, I didn't get it either. I don't get the punchline. Like, okay, the milk machine prevented her from milking, but

How did that relate to her being... Did the machine make her seize up so much that she became like very tight? And therefore the cow sex was better? Just a nice tight vagina. Oh my God. Hey. Hey. Hey, Harry. I heard Molly. Molly's got a tight vagina. Hey. Hey, you see Molly? Hank. Hank. Hank, did you hear? See that over there, Molly? Tight vagina. Yeah.

Oh, the one from the milking machine? Yeah. Throw that drop dead? Bob, hold my beer. Hey, Molly. Oh, God. Oh, God. So it's evening in the kitchen. Blanche is looking out at the rain. I love this. I loved Rain as a little girl, too, but she says, I do love the rain so. It reminds me of my first kiss. Your first kiss was in the rain. No, it was in the shower. Oh, God.

The look on Dorothy's face. First of all, I wrote down, that is such a good joke. Yeah. It's such a good kind of throwaway joke. Yeah. It's perfect. Dorothy's wearing another signature cowl neck. This one is lavender. Sophia enters having been to the video store in a downpour to get more porn. Get more porn. She's an official sex addict. I think so. You know what I mean? I have here, she's wearing her...

her yellow Hurricane of Comin' hat and coat. Right? She's coming from the pantry slash garage wing. Well, she was feeding the minks. You know what I mean? She was in there getting porn and feeding the minks. But I'm like, how unsatisfying must it be to watch porn in the living room and then not really be able to do anything about it? Maybe this is why Sophia is always prematurely leaving scenes. Oh, God. I just, oh my gosh. So,

So Dorothy's mad because she's like, Ma, I thought you were taking a nap. And like Sophia faked a nap. And then when Dorothy wasn't looking, ran out in a hurricane to get more porn. Can we just talk about that for a minute? I know. It's so good, though. Sophia, hey, where have you been? I thought you were taking a nap. I went to the video store. Ma, I told you I'd go. Forget it. The last time you brought back Seven Brides for Seven Brothers. You know how disappointed I was to find out it's a musical? What?

That is a dirty joke. Dirty. Dirty. Hey, we don't have sex shame here. No. If she wants to have seven sexes with seven brothers, I say you go do it, Sophia. You do it. So Blanche asks, you know, where are Jean and Rose? They aren't back yet. And Dorothy's like, no, they're probably having lunch together again. Blanche says they certainly have hit it off, haven't they? It's just amazing that like Jean and Rose have become such good friends. Like Dorothy, it seems like

Because she's a substitute teacher. She wasn't expecting to have to work this much this week, but she's been there a lot. And Rose can come and go as she wants, apparently, from the grief counseling center and has been going to movies every day with Jean. Yeah, they've struck up a friendship. Yes. There's a really interesting exchange. It's just Blanche and Dorothy sitting at the table. And Blanche says, Dothi, there's something about Jean that bothers me.

And I loved this moment because we think we know what she's going to say. We and Dorothy think she's going to be upset to have decided that Gina's a lesbian. Right. So Dorothy has this raised eyebrow and you can see that she's not going to stand for it for a second. And she goes, bothers you? And it was a small moment that as a gay person really meant a lot to me. That's a good point. And I imagine it did make you feel good. And I love that. Yeah. But, you know, Dorothy tells her...

bothers you? Every time I suggest she go out on a date, the two of you change the subject. Oh, come on, Blanche. That's ridiculous. Look, I think the rain is beginning to let up. Dorothy, I may be a lot of things, but naive is not one of them. Face it. Your friend Jean is seeing a married man. Blanche, that is absolutely uncanny. Face it. Your friend Jean

Seeing a married man. And Dorothy, just Blanche, that is absolutely uncanny. Because it lets her off the hook again, right? Yes, exactly. You can see she wants to talk to Blanche about it, but she doesn't know what to say. She doesn't know when to say it. Yeah, exactly. So she's sort of off the hook for another few minutes. Right. Jean and Rose enter. Rose is sobbing. They're like, oh my God, what happened? Jean says, don't worry, she'll be fine. Another savage joke from Blanche. We've had this one before, though. I just, you know, about her head.

Yeah, she like teases her hair color a lot. She's like, of course you will, honey. That phony hair color won't come out just because it got caught in the rain. Can I tell you something about dyeing hair? Yeah. I have recently started dyeing my hair. Oh. And I didn't realize how many people must do it. I know a lot of people my age who don't have gray hair. And I would naturally have a lot of gray hair. Oh. But I dye my... It's a great color. Thank you. It's interesting. And, you know, it really takes...

10, 15 years off when you do it. No, not that everybody wants that. Some people look great with gray hair. Some people just love having it. I'm not making any judgment. But I'm just looking around at all the people I know my age who have no gray hair, who must all be dying their hair. And I didn't know it until I started doing it. Yeah, some people, and to be clear, I used to do colors. Oh, yeah. And winter women, they look great. What's a winter woman? Like a winter is... It's like an abominable snow woman. I know, but you look good in cool toned...

colors instead of warm. So for jewelry, you'd look good in silver jewelry, let's say. And you look good in pure jewel tones. Like winters technically are the ones that look the best in pure black, pure white colors.

ruby red, emerald green, blue sapphire, jewel tones, right? I love it. But winter, I'm just talking about women here, but winter women generally gray very beautifully. They're the ones that you might call like a silver fox. Yeah. It's just so silvery. You know who would have the most gorgeous mane of silver hair in 80 years when it's her age to have it? Jillian Pensavalli. Can't you just imagine that like hair? Well,

Because again, it's that porcelain skin. Yeah. Yeah, I can. I can totally see it. Yeah. In 80 years. Yeah. I'm going to be full rose. Cotton candy for days. I will be blonde. I'll be honey blonde. I've decided I'm going to go to Istanbul and get that hair surgery as soon as I need it. I'm sorry. What's the Istanbul hair? What? What? What? I need a mini deep dive on the Istanbul hair surgery. What? What?

You can get it anywhere, but I guess it's like cheaper in Istanbul. My friend Mark did it. It's like a hair transplant, basically. Like the plugs and stuff? Yeah, but it looks very natural. It looks very good. And why is it cheaper in Istanbul? I don't know. Because everything in America is 100 times more expensive. Okay. Anyway, moving on.

So it turns out that Jean and Rose went to see the Crimea River double feature at the Rialto, where they saw Terms of Endearment and Love Story. And Rose is just a big old sappy pants. And now she's a mess and she's got to go clean herself up. Jean kicks Blanche out of the kitchen so she can talk to Dorothy alone. Exactly. And as Blanche is leaving, she says to Jean, don't worry, your secret is safe with me. It's a great double entendre. Because Jean thinks she's like now knows that she's a lesbian and isn't going to say anything. But Blanche is saying, I know you sleep with married men because that's what Blanche has decided has happened.

Right. But there is a little bit of like a menacing look between the two of them. Yeah, I agree. You know, I do. As Blanche exits. I have to say this movie date seems to me that it has to be a different day because Rose isn't going to work if she's about to make them a cup of tea. I have the same thought. This must be like their second date to the movie theater. Yeah. So they're definitely spending time together, which also makes sense because, you know,

Blanche has said, wow, they really have hit it off. And I don't think you'd say that after just one afternoon together. I agree. Just timeline. You know, I love that. And it's not always clear, but I think you're absolutely right about that. After this double entendre exit by Blanche, we're at what turns out to be a very poignant moment. And Jean just says to Dorothy, I'm afraid I'm going to have to leave. Now, Jean threatens to leave about eight times in this episode. Yeah.

Dorothy, I'm afraid I'm going to have to leave today. Because of Blanche? No, no, no. It has nothing to do with Blanche. You know, something unexpected has come up. Like back home? Is it serious? It's not back home, but it is serious. I haven't met anyone as good and decent as Rose since Pat died. And I think I'm falling in love.

Now, this was so, I could cry talking about this. I know, I know. It's so important to me that nobody laughs. Yeah. The audience doesn't laugh because that is the kind of thing that in 1986, 87, easily could have been a laugh line. Like this ridiculous woman, now it's falling in love with the dummy and oh my God, the comedy of errors.

This moment is taken really seriously. And I'm very curious. I'd love to know if the audience did laugh and they muted it or if the audience really didn't laugh. The audience could tell that it was a serious moment. And it's another thing I didn't, again, I've seen this episode a million times. I didn't really realize how meaningful that was until rewatching it for this. For many reasons. First of all,

The women, as ever, the age of the women, it's network television, it's NBC. Think about Roseanne a few years later. Yeah. That big episode where Roseanne... At Stanbrook. Yeah, where she goes to kiss Mare Winningham. Yes. Is that right? Yep. And, you know, you just see the back of Mare's head. Yep. And then, of course, Ellen's coming out and what a big deal that was. Yeah. You know, like, this was so ahead of its time. And to not say...

attracted to her or I have feelings for her. To say, I think I'm falling in love, that's a big deal. And it takes Jean's relationship with Pat seriously too. Yes. You know, again, because Jean is presenting as a straight passing woman, they could have made her even...

years later, every lesbian you see in Will and Grace is going to be played by some stereotypical butch women, which, I mean, I love a butch lesbian. I'm not saying, like, that's a bad stereotype, but it is a stereotype, and they could have done that with Jean, and they made her a very, like, lived-in character.

And again, it just made me think of my mom. That was very much my mom's existence. I love that it wasn't played for laughs. And really, you get the jokes from Sophia and Blanche here and there. But what Jean is going through is never played for laughs. And I love that. Me too. So we move into Dot's twin size bed. Yeah. It somehow looks bigger because she's sharing it with Sophia, who's so tiny. Yes, exactly. Sophia thinks that Dorothy is

Sal and in her dream she rejects him to which I say it's not the cooking it's the porn addiction right because she says you know not not tonight Salvador I've been cooking all day and I'm like it's not the cooking it's the porn addiction Sophia that's why you can't have sex with a real human exactly exactly but Dorothy is just she's

tossing and turning. She wants to talk. She wants to ask her mother a question. Right. She wants to know how Sophia would react if she found out that one of her kids were gay. And again, this is where we get that line from Sophia. Oh, your brother Phil is gay. I knew it. When he was a kid, we couldn't keep him away from the Gladiator movies. Again, in the Phil deep dive, we don't think Phil is gay. We think that Phil is a trans woman. That's right. And Dorothy makes the point like Phil's not gay. And we get this great joke from Sophia where she's like, oh, that it's you? What is your friend Jean having some sort of membership drive? Like, it's very funny. Exactly. Exactly.

And Dorothy says, Ma, Dorothy, I know you don't get many dates. Lies. She gets so many dates. Dorothy is out more than Blanche. That's right. But, you know, Sophia's like, stick with what you know. At your age, it's very hard to break into something new. Good night.

No. And, you know, I love this exchange because, again, it's what you were saying before about Estelle Getty's effect on the script. Or just even if she wasn't consulted, the humanity she brings to what she's about to say, because it is who she was. It's what she believed so much. And she says, Mom, I am not gay. I just wanted to get your reaction. I'll tell you the truth, Dorothy. If one of my kids was gay.

I wouldn't love him one bit less. I would wish him all the happiness in the world. It's because you're the greatest mother in the world. And I love you.

She gives her great speech. And I just have the note here that like, it's so important that who we're going to learn, Estelle Getty is like the most beloved woman on television at the time, to be saying this to a TV audience of 45 million people in the 80s at the beginning to the middle height of the AIDS crisis. It's like, we forget this, but parents needed a permission structure to not think their kid coming out was the end of the world. You know what I mean? Well, and then the Phil episode, you bring up an interesting point.

I want to go back and watch it, but it was the dress thing. Not that that should be any less accepting on Sophia's part. But I wonder in Sophia's mind if because, you know, you've said a lot here that Jean can pass this straight. I wonder if part of her concern was that

She wouldn't have had a hard time if he were gay, but wearing the dresses, what would that set him up for? Ridicule in this world? It just begs the question in my mind. Yeah, but any of the conversation about any of this, and I'm going to get a little bit more into this at the end of the episode when I talk about why they made the episode and how they were able to do it. But, you know, nobody else on TV was talking about this stuff. Certainly not like this. Certainly not with racism.

real characters who looked like real people who weren't characters who weren't for the joke or for the laugh. Yeah. And for Sophia to make that speech, I mean, I can just see, you know, we hear so much that during this time when people were dying of AIDS, their families were cutting them off. Families weren't claiming bodies from the hospital. Like people were dying without saying goodbye to their parents because their parents wouldn't talk to them. Yeah. And for one of the most popular shows on TV to be saying to parents subtly and creatively and lovingly, like, hey,

Through storytelling and not through you should do this. Right. Because I think, too, it's also talking to like the mom in the room. Like, hey, maybe your husband's never going to speak to your kid again, but you don't have to do that. Yeah. You know what I mean? Pick up the phone and call. I'm getting chills. I know. You know, we're forgetting the context of the time and the AIDS crisis and how bad it was, you know, and how desperately these messages of acceptance

and loving no matter what were so important. But to your point, Dorothy says, you're the greatest mother in the world and I love you. Sophia hilariously says, fine, now keep your big fat mouth shut so I can get some sleep. And Dorothy, after a pause, says, Jean thinks she's in love with Rose. And Sophia sits up, there's a long pause, and then she just starts, Jean thinks she's in love with Rose. LAUGHTER

Ma, come on, it's not funny. The hell it's not. Jean in love with little Miss Muffet. Come on!

It's the release that we all wanted, right? Finally, there's something to chuckle about. But what's so great about it, you know, when Dorothy says it's not funny, Sophia says, the hell it's not, because it's not about the lesbianism. Yes. It's about the types of humans they are, about Jean being in love with little Miss Muffet. So good. And so they're laughing. Blanche enters, like, what's going on? And Sophia and Dorothy at the same time, nothing. And she's like, come on, I heard you laughing. What's going on? And Sophia's like, well, for starters, Jean is a lesbian. Now, Blanche has no reaction.

Right. And we're like, oh, great. Like, Blanche doesn't care. That's great. This writing in this next section, I think, is great. It's perfect. It's iconic. Because she's just like, you know, she's the most experienced sexually. She's like, why would that surprise her? And she's like, what's funny about that? Yeah. Come on now. I heard you laughing. What's so funny? For starters, Gina's a lesbian. What's funny about that? You aren't surprised? Of course not. I mean, I've never known any personally, but isn't Danny Thomas one?

Not Lebanese, Blanche. Lesbian. Lesbian. Lesbian. Lesbian. Lesbian. Lesbian.

Lesbian. But Blanche, we know what it is. Well, Jean's a very attractive woman. She could have any man she wants. But she doesn't want him. Well, why not? A man is so much more to offer. You know what I mean, Dorothy? Like, it takes nothing to get Blanche all hot and bothered. That's right. You know what I mean? That's right. Dorothy does know what she means. Yeah, because of this really inappropriate story about a third grader named Mark Pepper who ran for class president and his class— Excuse me. Purper. Oh, sorry. Purper.

Even more inappropriate. Purper the pervert, if you ask me. His campaign slogan was, vote for me and I'll show you my wee-wee. And he, quote, won by a landslide. That is disgusting. It is. But, like, ultimately Blanche isn't bothered. And she just says, I'll never understand what Jean doesn't see in the opposite sex. But if that makes her happy, that's fine by me. And here are the penny drops because Dorothy says, but there's one more thing. And Sophia says, Jean thinks she's in love with Rose. And I have here, this is iconic. I know. Jean thinks she's in love with Rose. Yeah.

Gene has the hots for Rose. I don't believe it. I do not believe it. I was pretty surprised myself. Well, I'll bet. To think Gene would prefer Rose over me. That's ridiculous. George, please.

Now you tell me the truth. If you had to pick between me and Rose, who would you pick? What? Put yourself together. Well, I'll bet. To think Jane would prefer Rose over me? That's ridiculous. And in between over me and that's ridiculous. In the gap, the audience screams. Roars. Roars. Absolutely roars. And one of

the things, you know, my favorite moment. It's so good. And one of the things that I learned about and why they were making this episode was because it was it was a great opportunity to show Blanche, this person who we think is like so sexually sophisticated and does not know the word lesbian. Yeah. Cannot imagine a world where every single human being is not attracted to men. That's right. She doesn't even know the word lesbian. Exactly. She's like, who wouldn't want cock? Absolutely no one. And the only other thing.

is but also who wouldn't want her you know what I mean yes the only thing more that would make her more incredulous yeah it is Blanche and all of her like wonderful narcissism she's like now you tell me the truth if you had to pick me or Rose who would you pick who she's not jealous of Jean being another attractive woman she's a she's jealous that the woman is attracted to the other woman and not her I mean she has seen her in her pharaoh robe for god's sake how could you not want that

Oh, God. So she calms down. She's like, I'm so sorry. Just Rose, no. No. And they decide they're not going to tell Rose because Rose isn't like as sophisticated as Blanche or whatever. Right. And I'm like, that's a kind of a shitty argument. But at the same time, I guess it also makes sense. It's also not their information to tell. You know what I mean? That is the more appropriate answer. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I read a Danny Thomas mini-ditty. I'll make it fast. Yeah. I've

always, all of my life, wondered who Danny Thomas was because of this joke. Isn't Danny Thomas one? Yeah. Two of the most important things. He is the father of Golden Girls producer Tony Thomas. Oh!

Right? Danny Thomas, Tony Thomas, also the father of Marlo Thomas from That Girl. He was an actor. He was like really successful. He had a show in 1953. He created a really popular TV show called Make Room for Daddy, which became the Danny Thomas show. He was a very successful producer. But the thing that he's like most known for and most proud of was founding the St. Jude Hospital for Children.

If you remember, all through the 80s and 90s, Marlo Thomas was always raising money for St. Jude because her dad founded it. And they say he was a Roman Catholic with a strong religious faith. He often said that in the difficult early years of his career, when his wife was urging him to give up show business and get a regular job, he prayed to St. Jude Thaddeus, the patron saint of the hopeless, impossible, and difficult cases.

And he asked the saint to put him on the right path, vowing that if the saint did so, he would build him a shrine. Oh, my gosh. And he did it. And he did it in the name of the St. Jude Hospital. I didn't know that about him. Isn't that amazing? Yeah. And my parents are raised Catholic. I remember donating to that many times. Yeah. I mean, an incredible organization that stays to this day. That's who Danny Thomas is. Oh, that's wonderful. My mini Diddy. Well, we're in the living room and it is packed.

Sophia is the only one not dressed. And, you know, she's in her yellow bathrobe. Yes. Dorothy and Blanche are on the couch. Rose is on the floor behind the coffee table. And Jean is in the chair by the door. It's game night, y'all. Notably, Jean is wearing Blanche slash Lucy's reusable earrings, the coral aqua hoops. She is. You know, you're going to recognize them. They're in so many episodes. Jean is wearing Blanche's earrings? It's the one that they reuse over and over again. Lucy wore them, those little hoops, those coral aquas. Oh, yes.

Yeah. All right. Well, Sophia is sneezing and they're all saying bless you. And Dorothy is saying. Bless you. Stop blessing her. She got what she deserved for running around in the rain for some dirty movies. Oh.

I'm going to bed. Me too. I think I'll call it a night. Dorothy, do you really think you ought to sleep in the same bed as Sophia? You could get that cold. You know, you're right, Blanche. Ma, you sleep in your own room. Jean can sleep in my room tonight. You're letting this sick old woman sleep in her own bed with her own pillow? Bless you, warden.

Dirty movies. Dirty movies. Everybody but Rose and Jean decide they're going to go to bed. Right. Rose and Jean are going to stay up and they're going to keep playing cards. Right. Before she leaves, though, Dorothy says, you know, Ma's got this cold. Jean, why don't you sleep in my room tonight? Because she's getting sick, right? As any gay person would, Jean's like, no, no, no, no, no. I'll sleep on the couch. Finally, a guest suggests the obvious, by the way.

The gay guest. Leave it to the gay guest to have some manners. I got to honest, honest to God. You're going to bring your homosexuality down here. You better have some manners. But honestly, as a gay person, if I was in the same situation, I'm visiting a friend. I'm supposed to be like whatever. And it was like, oh, my straight friend is like now, oh, just come and sleep with me. And there's a couch. Of course, I'd be like, I'll just sleep on the couch. But Patrick, I was going to say even without the sexuality piece, I would just do that because it's manners. Well, can I tell you where I think it comes from?

honestly it is the Catholic because we're Catholic exactly the completely ridiculous but like somehow we've just made a pop culture idea that gays are creepy that like that I'm gonna like make a move on you or you know what I mean like rather than like dealing like lying in bed next to my friend I'm like wondering if he's wondering if I'm in a

put the moves on him. Yes, you wouldn't relax. No, I wouldn't relax. And that is a, you know, that's a thing that gay people think. When I was, when my nephews were growing up when they were young and I was at my sister's and it was bath time, I was two miles from that bathroom. And my sister, I finally had to explain it to her. I'm like, she's like, come in here and talk to me while I'm bathing the kids. I'm like, I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. We also live in a culture, let's talk about it since we're getting there, where, I mean, so often

unbelievably so. But so many people in this country think that if you're gay, that means you're a pedophile. Totally. I mean, and I hope that there are young gay people listening to this being like, what are you talking about? That wasn't my experience. I really hope that's true. Am I wrong? No, no, no, not for our generation. For our generation, it was very much like you would see like the gay uncle not being invited to the little kid's birthday party or the gay uncle not being asked to babysit the

kids. It's very, very, very different now. It was very different during my time. But even still, you just never want to be accused of putting the moves on. You never want to be accused of looking like, and it is as a gay person of a certain age that is in my brain. Exactly. Well, moving on. Blanche decides she's going to go to bed, but she doesn't call it going to bed. She calls it retiring. I think I'll retire too. This is the night I do my facial packs and compresses. It takes me an hour, but that's why my skin is as smooth as a baby's bottom.

That must explain the urge I sometimes have to diaper your head. Her face looks good. Whatever she's doing, it's working. Right. But also, she's probably trying to convince Jean why she should think she's the beautiful one. You know what I mean? Don't.

Now that I think, now that I'm reading it, I'm like, oh, wait a minute. There was an ulterior motive here. That's so funny. She might as well say, you idiot. Well, this is the moment where everyone leaves and it's just Jean and Rose. Jean looks ultra feminine in her super feminine nightclothes. She's sitting in the chair kind of seductively. Rose looks kind of butch, manspreading, wearing like a... The teddy bear sweater. The teddy bear sweater. And Rose is sitting in a position that is unnatural. Yeah.

We never see Rose sit like that. That's true. She's sitting in a very butch, and I feel like it was done on purpose to counter stereotypes. Interesting. I feel like it was meant to say, look, this is a lesbian who doesn't look like your stereotypical lesbian. Well, her, I can say yes, but the decision to have Betty White be the reverse in that moment is interesting. It feels intentional. Even if it was Betty White doing it without telling the director, it feels like she's like,

I'm going to show. She's a smart cookie. Yes. I bet it was. No matter what is happening in that scene, they are playing with gender stereotypes. And it's very interesting to me. And also the speed at which Betty White deals. Only a man. Only a man shuffles and deals that quickly. If you have the gift of being able to shuffle cards, good for you. I can't do it. The speed at which she does. That is not me. I'm like one, one, two. I am terrible at it. She's like Vegas. I mean, she is. I know.

Really good at it. She's really, she's butchering it up as much as she can. Cards aren't flipping over. Oh my God. Accurate the first, accurate number count. Oh man. It's amazing. So they play a quick round of cards. We get a story from Rose about going to the prom. Yeah, and you can see that time has passed because they've moved from where they were to both

sitting on the couch with their feet up. Yes. And you can see, like, Jean is off in her own world. Yes. You know, and they realize, yeah. Well, because Jean is, like, dealing with her feelings for Rose, but also missing Pat. Yes. Because Rose is telling a story now about, like, after Charlie died, I would put the pillows next to me, and it wasn't like I thought it was Charlie, but it was

It was something. And they're just having this moment of two people who've lost the loves of their lives. Yeah, and Jean's like, I'll have to try that. And, you know, they realize all of a sudden it's two in the morning. And very logically, Betty White, who now considers Rose, considers Jean, her friend, says, Well, that can't be two o'clock.

It is? Oh, I'd better let you get some sleep. Good night, Rose. Good night. Oh, Jean, listen, was it this late? I hate to have you wait, Dorothy. Why don't you stay in my room tonight? Well, I suppose that makes more sense than waking Dorothy. Good.

By the way, you're not a cover hog, are you? No. Good, because I am. But Jean has that moment of hesitation of like, what do I do? Cuts to the bedroom. Now, Rose is in the bed asleep. Jean comes out of the bathroom in a brand new, gorgeous, ultra feminine nightgown situation. Right, right. I was like, damn, girl, how many of those did you pack? We get it. You're not Butch. But she like goes over, like her feelings for Rose are so front of mind. She has to tell Rose or she's going to explode.

Rose, are you awake? Rose? Am I hogging the covers? Oh, no, no, no, no. Everything's fine. Rose, I want to tell you something. If I don't say it, I'll never get to sleep. What? I like you very much, Rose. I like you too, Jean. I think you're very special. I think you're special too. What I really want to say is I...

I'm quite fond of you. I'm quite fond of you. And Rose says it too. She says it back. I'm quite fond of you too. Beat, beat, beat. Boom. Her eyes like wide open like a shark. Exactly. Like she gets it. She knows what Jean is saying. So then she does the snore fake exhale thing.

To pretend that she's sleeping so she doesn't have to confront it further. But further evidence of what I was saying about like now being the gay person feeling awkward, she does not get into bed with Rose. She goes and sleeps on the couch in Rose's like sitting area. Right. Which is not, doesn't look nearly as comfortable as the wicker one outside. When you're, right, exactly. But when you're Jean, it feels like the right thing to do. Like I just, now I've just told you that I'm in love with you. I'm not going to snuggle up next to you in bed. Right. Because even if it's,

quote-unquote true that she fell asleep the fact that there's not any response you're just gonna like oh god oh god it's also like i know again it's so the sitcom can happen but like what's the plan jean like you didn't expect that rose was gonna tell you that she was in love with you too right like is that a thing that you really did you really have to tell her how many times have i kept something like that to myself plenty well i feel a couple things first of all we'll never know yeah second of all

She might have hoped she would. You think? Yeah, because why else would you... Do it. Look, I'm putting myself in her shoes. That's why I would do it on the off chance that this person might say something back and furthermore, take away some of my grief and pain. Yeah, yeah. And you're going to get in bed with one another and who knows where it could lead, even if not lovemaking, holding, kissing, cuddling, comfort. And it's also, like, I do think that women have...

an intimacy or at least are open to an intimacy that like other genders aren't. Like it feels to me like there could have been a thing where she gets into bed with Rose and Rose is like, I'm not a lesbian. I'm not in love with you, but like I'll hold you tonight if that's what you need. You know? I don't know. Maybe. Yeah. It's such an interesting moment. And I like the way the shot sort of lingers on Jean as she like goes back to her. And you can tell like she doesn't feel better. You know what I mean? Oh, no. In that moment, if I had to put myself in her shoes, you'd absolutely regret having said it. A hundred percent. A hundred percent.

So next morning, we're in the kitchen. They're getting their coffee. Yeah, nobody knows where Jean is. And they do realize she has stayed in Rose's room. Yes. And they speculate like, oh my God, do you think Jean would ever, you know...

And she must have stayed in Rose's room. My God. Dorothy, you don't suppose Jean would ever, you know. Listen, Blanche, I do not believe for one moment that anything other than gin rummy happened between Rose and Jean last night. Dorothy, something terrible happened. Oh, God. More to the point, they're kind of like, do you think Rose would ever, like, oh, you know what I mean? Like, did dumb Rose get talked into lesbian sex by... Right, and so Rose comes in, Dorothy, something terrible happened.

And Dorothy, oh God. I know. And then Sophia, you idiot. If someone told you to jump off a bridge, would you do it? Like the idea that Jean and Rose did it last night. Just come on, everybody. And Rose asks for the room. She wants to talk to Dorothy alone. And we have a fight. Blanche is rightfully offended. Oh, you think? Because they're all best friends. You know what I mean? Like, and Blanche knows what's going on, but Rose doesn't know that Blanche knows, I guess. Yeah. And like, that's the thing.

That's another thing that I think is really true to the time. Like so many kids grew up in environments where they felt like they could tell their mother, but not their dad or their dad and not their mom. So that's kind of what Rose is experiencing. Like what my parents know. My take on it is this. Blanche's feelings are valid because they're her feelings. And in your words, if it's rightfully offended, that's her feelings on the matter. But I think the boundaries are the thing here that Rose is like this.

This really involves Dorothy's friend. And if she wants to talk to Dorothy alone, she's perfectly within her rights to do that. And it's also true that Rose also doesn't know if Dorothy knows that Gina's a lesbian. Correct. So I guess that's all true. Yeah, yeah. So basically, you should go fuck yourself. If y'all don't mind, I'm going to go fuck myself. I'm going to hook myself up to a dairy machine and see what happens. God, you'll be popular. You'll be popular. I don't get it. I don't get it. I don't get it.

I think we figured it out, though. I think we got to the point. Tight vagina. Oh, my God. Think about that. Tight cow vagina. How did you know my nickname in high school? That's the name of your next book. Patrick Hines. Tight cow vagina.

Signing copies near you. Oh, my God. In a city near you. But before we move on, I have to say, Blanche and Sophia leave, but Blanche, they have a funny sort of, they're taking their damn sweet time leaving the kitchen. They don't want to. They're like, we're coming, we're coming. And I say that because there's a call back coming up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is where, basically, Rose feels like she's got to break it to Dorothy that Jean's a lesbian. Dorothy knows. Right. And then Rose is like, well, that's not important. I've got a bigger problem.

I like Jean. I like her a lot. But I think she's in love with me. She told you? Not in so many words, but I knew what she meant. Unless I'm wrong, Dorothy. Now, you know I'm wrong about so many things. No, honey, you're not wrong about this. Dorothy, what am I going to do? You're not wrong. And she says, you know, what am I going to do? And I have here, we go right from Naive Rose to...

to that incredible counselor training coming in real handy because she kind of nails it, actually, with Jean in this next thing, you know? Yeah, well, because Jean walks in and I think she sees Dorothy first. She's like, hi. She's like in her traveling clothes. It's the outfit she arrived in. She's got her suitcase. Yeah. And she sees Rose and now it's awkward. And Dorothy's like, girl, what's with the suitcase? Like, Jean is now threatening to leave two or three times. Yeah.

And Jean is saying, like, I've decided I do have to go. And Rose knows what this is about. Rose is like, hang on, everyone calm down. Dorothy, can you go? Can I talk to Jean for a second? Right. And Dorothy, no, fine. Go ahead. Right.

I'm going, I'm going. Taking her damn sweet time. And Rose, you know, you want a cup of coffee? Sure, maybe I'll have one. Oh, good. Jean starts to talk about what happened last night. Rose, about last night, I should never have said anything. Well, you only said what you were feeling. Well, it's just that this last year has been so difficult for me. Pat was the person that I planned to spend the rest of my life with. And when she died, I just felt so terribly alone.

I thought I could never care for anyone again until I met you. I just got very confused. I hope I didn't make you feel uncomfortable. I was upset with one of the words chosen here. I know what you're going to say. Where she says, I just got very confused. I'm like, no, you weren't confused. You weren't confused. But, you know, I think maybe a generous interpretation of that might be, maybe it's you remind me of Pat.

you know, you have the same kind of spirit as Pat. I'm not actually in love with you, but there was something about you. Maybe that's the confusion. Yeah, or maybe it could be both because, you know, if Rose had reciprocated, I don't think she would have been confused. Exactly.

You know, so it just made me sad, I guess, that she had to negate the character. I'm feeling for an imaginary character. But I felt sad that this woman felt she had to backpedal simply to make Rose comfortable. Because all of you... Which I guess is the point. She was trying to make Rose feel more comfortable. And then herself, vicariously. And you feel sorry for her because it's a real thing that people went through. Because Rose then does say another thing that I don't really like. Rose says... Well, I have to admit...

I don't understand these kinds of feelings. But if I did understand, and if I were, you know, like you, I think I'd be very flattered and proud that you thought of me that way. Thank you, Rose. Well, I guess that's all I had to say. Except you don't have to go, unless you think our friendship alone isn't enough. It's enough.

This is the difference between tolerance and acceptance. It's sort of like you can understand them and say, I don't feel those kinds of feelings. Now, this is very early on in the journey of people understanding how to have these kinds of conversations. It's funny you should bring it up, though. Earlier when I said she kind of nails it, my caveat parenthetically was that one line. Yeah. You know, I have to admit, I don't understand these kind of feelings. I'm like, eh. Right. Handering a little bit. It's a little love the sin or hate the sin, which is like not exactly what she's saying. You can still be flattered that she has feelings for you and...

You know what I mean? And not be gay. So like she's trying to say the right thing, which is very true to Rose, I think. I think Rose is conservative. I think she, maybe she doesn't understand these kinds of feelings. When I said pandering, that's what I mean. Or maybe that's too strong a word. But you and I have both commented that at the time we didn't realize just how conservative she was. That in rewatching we've,

recognize that she's voicing what a lot of people and a lot of viewers and dare say a lot of listeners to our podcast feel or might understand. And so in that regard, I don't mind it in the sense that it's still if you're willing to lose the battle and win the war, we still get

to where we need to go, right? And I think at the end of the day, everybody in this situation is trying to make it less awkward. And nobody wants Jean to leave. And that's kind of what it is. Like, Rose is just saying, like, you don't have to leave. Yeah. You know, I mean, as long as us just being friends is enough for you, then you don't have to leave. And Jean's like, it's enough. And they hug just as Sophia walks in. This isn't what it looks like. I know, I know. I was listening at the door. LAUGHTER

Why were you listening at the door? Because I'm not tall enough to see through the window. What happens, Patrick? And we see Blanche and Dorothy stand up outside the kitchen window. And it's very funny. Yeah. So we've been talking about Jean so much. Do you want to hear my deep dive on the actress who plays her? I would love. Yeah, I'm fascinated. So Lois Nettleton is the name of the actor who plays Jean. She was born August in 1927 in Oak Park, Illinois. Her family was

poor and her parents divorced when she was young. In an interview with After Dark in 1972, she said she used fantasy to escape her circumstances. I know. Developing an ambition to act in the process. And she put on little shows in her backyard, as did I, girl. As did I. So after graduating from high school, she studied at the Goodman Theater in Chicago.

I love the Goodman. I know. That's one of the best plays I've ever seen in my life. Oh, yeah, exactly. And when I was doing the out-of-town tryout of Death Becomes Her, that was right next door. Then she moved to New York to join the actor's studio where she learned the method approach to acting. In 1948, she was Miss Chicago and a semi-finalist in the Miss America pageant. Wow. The following year, in 1949, she made her Broadway debut in The Biggest Thief in Town with Brooks Atkinson of The New York Times calling her work, quote,

pleasantly fresh and disarming. Now, Cheesecakes, there is a Broadway theater called the Brooks Atkinson. This is a famous critic. Yes, yes. More on her Broadway career. In 1955, she was understudied to Barbara Bel Geddes in Tennessee Williams' Cat in a Hot Tin Roof. Wow. And occasionally, she got to go on to play the role as Maggie. Oh my God. In 1950. She would have been amazing.

Amazing. I know. In 1959, she appeared in God and Kate Murphy. In 1976, she was nominated for a Tony Award for a Broadway revival of Sidney Howard's They Knew What They Wanted. Nice. Lois, who had, as you might agree, a soft, almost breathy speaking voice, made an indelible impression in the 1973 production, the Broadway revival of Tennessee Williams' streetcar named Desire as Blanche Dubois. Yes.

Yes! I wish I could have seen that, right? Oh my God. Lois moved to LA after this to take care of her ailing mother, but she would have preferred to remain in New York and on Broadway. Listen, it wasn't for naught because her, in addition to caring for her mother, her TV and film career flourished.

She won two Emmy Awards during her career. Wow. And she actually received an Emmy nomination for this episode. Yes, I read that. And this is on her being cast in the Golden Girls and on the role. This comes from Golden Girls Forever. Oh, Jim Colucci's book. Hey, Jim Colucci. She says when they were casting Jean, I think that what they were probably looking for was the way I actually played her. And that is as a very straight person.

person. Not straight in the sense of not being gay, but rather as an ordinary seeming woman. I had played a gay woman one other time in the early 70s on Medical Center, and I think that character was similar to what they wanted for Jean. Someone who just didn't seem stereotypically masculine in any way. I guess this is a somewhat historic episode, but I just approached Jean not by concentrating on her sexuality, but by figuring out who she is as a human being.

Wow. Straight or gay, we all have so many different types of relationships with other people. What are hers? Well, from that wonderful, hilarious script, you could see Jean was sensitive, outgoing, and had a good sense of humor, at ease with herself and with life. She suffered a loss, and I've had mine too. All I had to do was substitute a woman for a man, and it wasn't hard to imagine falling in love with Rose. So,

If you're not reading Jim's book, go get it because you'll see stuff like this all over the place. Just wonderful. And that goes back to what you were saying earlier in the episode, right? Yeah. That it was on purpose. That she was very straight passing. And I think that that was very... I mean, once again, all I can say is that was very true for my mom. Yeah. Well, we lost Lois Nettleton on January 18th, 2008. She died from lung cancer in Woodland Hills, California. And I think she's a lovely actress. And I'm glad that we have...

stuff like this to go back and watch. May she rest. Well, I've got a deep dive on sort of the background of the episode. Okay. To end the episode. So a lot of this also comes from Jim's book, Golden Girls Forever, which I've said a thousand times is required reading. We've done our interview, our first interview with Jim. He's going to be back a million times. Get his book. It's so good. He autographed our books. He did autograph our books. That was so sweet. So good. In terms of the airing of the episode, Mort Nathan, co-producer and head writer of the Golden Girls said, I wanted to say this earlier because...

only the Golden Girls could have done an episode like this. He said, because the show was a hit, we had the license at the time to try things that other shows couldn't. We wanted to do an episode with a gay storyline for season two. It wasn't that we wanted to do something controversial or something issues-based, but more that we thought it was an area that seemed interesting, funny, and organic to what we do. So like other shows that weren't as popular and didn't have the sort of sensibility that the Golden Girls had couldn't do episodes

an episode with a main gay character in the way the Golden Girls did, you know? It would have had to have been funny or more stereotypical, but it was organic to the Golden Girls universe to do an episode like this. The episode was written on spec by a writer named Jeffrey Dute, who happened to be gay. He had a couple of TV writing credits under his belt, but he had worked with Winifred Hervey on an episode of The Odd Couple.

He said to Jim Colucci that he knew that the show had a big gay following, and that it had that following right from the beginning, and he knew that because he was in a community of people who loved it. Like, he said that he and his friends would all get ready to go out to the gay bars on Saturday night, and as they're getting ready, they would all watch the Golden Girls. It was a major thing. And he said...

that he had watched the Golden Girls' first season and that he was surprised that after Coco and the pilot, the show hadn't featured any other gay characters. And so this is amazing. During the summer between the first and second seasons, he just took it upon himself to write the script as a spec script. Nobody asked him to do it. He didn't really know anybody involved. He just wrote it. And then...

After watching the credits, when he saw Winifred Hervey's name, he's like, oh my God, I know her. He sent the script to her. And he later said, I was so naive. I had no idea that producers almost never agree to read spec scripts of their own shows. And actually they barely have time to read anything at all. But when he liked my script and forwarded it to the showrunners who called me in to meet them. And it just happened that he happened to have written that script at a time when they really were looking to do an episode with a gay character. Wow, it was meant to be. Meant to be. Yeah, because legally what I know is they're not,

They're also not allowed to, sometimes they don't read them for legal reasons. Oh, right. You know what I mean? Yeah. Right. And so they bought his script and they ended up liking it so much, they bumped it to the fifth episode of the season rather than the 13th, which is what it was originally meant to be. But according to the writer, the bulk of the episode came to him in a dream. He said the first draft of the script he wrote was very different. In that draft, it was Dorothy's friend visits with her daughter and the daughter was gay.

But everything seemed wrong about the story that he couldn't make it work. And then he was in Vegas with his partner on like a vacation. And he said the entire plot came to him in a dream. He woke up in the middle of the night. He sat down and wrote the entire thing. He said he just scribbled it onto a yellow legal pad. And he said the episode just laid itself out, the beginning, the middle, and end. He's like, I can't explain it.

It's never happened to me before or since. It was a major career breakthrough for him. He also earned an Emmy nomination for it. He never wrote for the Golden Girls again, which I thought was weird. He did say it never happened again. Like, I wonder, did he just stop writing? No, tons more after this. He produced a bunch of stuff as well. He worked right up until like the 2000 teens. But it's weird that he never wrote another episode of the Golden Girls because he was so good. You know what? He was like, it was just a one hit wonder. A one hit wonder. There's nothing wrong with that.

It's precisely 100% more episodes than me. Exactly. Oh my God. Cheesecakes, we love you. Thank you for hanging out with us. Thank you. Go join our Facebook group. Yes, it's the Golden Girls Deep Dive Podcast Discussion Group. Also, please come and see me on tour. I've just announced a whole bunch more cities. I'm going to announce a whole bunch more after this. PatrickTours.com. The whole idea of it is I do a show for an hour about...

It's a true story of my evening with Bea Arthur where she was really mean to me. We have a drag performer playing Bea Arthur in video. It's the funniest thing ever. And then the second half of the night, we go to the bar and we hang out. And get this, we've got little stickers that say, like, I'm traveling solo and I want to make new friends. Oh, I love that. And other stickers that are like, I'm here with a group of friends, but we want to make more friends. Come talk to us. Yes. Cheesecakes, go see Peter. He's wonderful. Please go see Peter. Please go see me. PatrickTours.com for all the tickets and information. Love you, Cheezies. We love you. Bye. Bye.