Bonus Episode: Dan Taberski: Podcast Superstar and Golden Girls Superfan!
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If it's got to be clean, it's got to be tied. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Whether you love true crime or comedy, celebrity interviews or news, you call the shots on what's in your podcast queue. And guess what? Now you can call them on your auto insurance too with the Name Your Price tool from Progressive. It works just the way it sounds. You tell Progressive how much you want to pay for car insurance and they'll show you coverage options that fit your budget.

Get your quote today at Progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Hi, Jennifer Simard. Hi, Patrick Hines. Oh, hi, Cheesecake. Hello, Cheesecake. So, Cheesecake, we want to let you know what's going on here. Yeah, we're doing something a little different.

Okay, so over the course of this first season of episodes, we want to let you know that about five times throughout the year, we have a week off from regular episodes because we're not doing 52 episodes. We're doing 46 episodes. So in those weeks that we're not doing regular episodes, here's what we're going to be doing, Cheesecakes. We're going to bring you an interview with some cool person where we're going to talk about their stuff and why you should care about them. But then we're going to talk about their favorite episodes.

sort of the Golden Girls and like really get into it. Yeah, sort of bringing you interviews with Golden Girls celebrity super fans as well, right? Yeah, and we've got some pretty cool ones already lined up. We're not going to spoil it. We're not going to give it away just yet, but get excited about it, Cheesecakes. Right, right, right. So this is the first of those weeks and then next week we'll be back with our regular recap and deep dive episodes. Yeah, so Patrick, tell the people who we're talking to today. Okay, I'm

so excited about this this man is a podcast superstar for podcast nerds like me he will need no introduction his name is dan taberski i fell in love with dan when he made the missing richard simmons podcast a few years ago he did the running from cops he worked on the heavens gate podcast he's done a million in between and his new podcast hysterical premiered at number one like on all the platforms a couple of weeks ago that's incredible i mean it's so good it's such a great podcast

He reached out to our ad partner, Odyssey, because he has the same ad partner, when he saw, like, the day that he heard this podcast was happening and was like, I need to go and be a guest on that show. So we're making it happen today. I love that. And he came to the studio in person. And I'm going to use...

fangirled quite a bit, I'm going to say. It took me like 10 minutes to settle down. Sometimes when I meet listeners in real life, they're like, I can't believe your voice and you're here and it's so weird and oh my God. And I had the exact same experience with Dan, like hearing him in my headphones but looking at him talking at the same time. It was so sweet. It was so genuine though. That's what I love. I think we even mentioned it, like just like a smile

from ear to ear. I know. So genuine. I was such a nerd about it. So anyway, we're going to talk a bit about his podcast work, a few other things, and then we're going to get to the Golden Girls and one of his favorite episodes, Blanche and the Younger Man. Yes. And then next week, we're back, like we said, to our regular episodes, episode 12, Custody Battle, where we meet Dorothy's sister, Gloria. All right. Cheesecakes, enjoy this episode with the wonderful, the handsome, the quilter himself, Dan Taberski. And we'll say a quick goodbye on the other side.

Hi, Dan Taberski. Hi, how are you? I'm really good. I'm a little bit nervous because I am a big podcast nerd and it's wild to have like a podcast celebrity in our studio. It's weird to be a podcast celebrity. It's like the weirdest little world and you're like, yeah, people sometimes know who I am. You were saying you got recognized once from just from your voice. In a restaurant, yeah? It was only once. It was wonderful. It's funny. My voice is very gay and I live in New York and I used to make theater podcasts.

So it was a very small audience, but I would get recognized on the subway all the time just from my voice. Wow. Because I also have a kid, so I'd be like reprimanding my kid and they're like, how do I know? Oh my God. Your laugh is really something that could be branded. Bottled.

I mean, it's something else. It's a lot. It's a great laugh. It's beautiful. It's just wild to be looking across the table at you. I will get over it and we will go on and have like a normal interview, but like it's going to take a minute probably. No, it's sweet though. And you know, listeners, you can't see Patrick, but the smile is so sweet. The smile says it all. It says it all. Thank you. I'm very excited.

How this came to be was, so we work with a company called Odyssey, and as do you, and they put out a press release announcing the Golden Girls podcast. I think within the day, we got an email from Odyssey saying like, oh, Dan Taberski's interested and, you know, wants to like maybe be on your podcast. Immediately. I... Screamed. I literally screamed. I didn't think it was real. I thought like, it just blew my mind. But so here's...

Here we are. Here we are. I belong in this seat. Oh, my God. Talking about this subject. For sure. Listen, you're going to have to indulge me because we're going to have to talk about you first. Please. And then we'll get to the Golden Girls. Oh, you're amazing now. Talk about me. Okay. All right. You ready? Here we go. I'm just going to act like everything is normal and then things will be normal. Okay. Okay. Okay.

So I think like most people in the podcast world, I discovered you through Missing Richard Simmons, which was when? Like 20... When was that? 2017. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I remember, you know, when you listen to as many podcasts as I do, when there's a new podcast that all of a sudden everybody is talking about, it's kind of rare. It doesn't happen that often. Yeah. If I told you once, I've told you a thousand times. Ah!

Love you. This is the Richard Simmons you know. I want to see 25 of these, 10, 10, and 5. And we're going to do it together, and we're going to burn some calories. Or maybe this is. Welcome back to the show, Richard. How are you doing? Thank you so much, David Letterman. Or maybe this is. Hi!

But on February 15, 2014, Richard Simmons stopped being Richard Simmons. Where is Richard? I have no idea. All of a sudden, nothing. He straight up got up and disappeared. He hasn't been seen in public since and ghosted absolutely everyone he knew.

I know because I'm one of them. And I mean, it was just right up my alley, like celebrity stuff, sort of true crimey stuff. And I just wanted to kind of start there about how that idea came to you, what it was like to be shot out of a cannon, to have such an instant success. And I remember because we bought an ad for something else I was working on on that podcast.

Oh, really? Really hard to book it. And we hit the impressions in like seconds. Like that's how popular that podcast was. Yeah. I think we bought the ad on the finale. So can you take us a little bit into that journey, like how that whole thing happened? Yeah. I mean, Richard Simmons, exercise guru. I heard he was teaching a class in Los Angeles that, you know, he's been doing it for 40 years. That's how he started. And I heard that he was teaching it in person still three times a week for 12 bucks a class.

I was working in television. I wanted to make a documentary. And I thought, oh, that's a good one because I'm really into him. Or I mean, I wasn't really before this, but now. But then you get there and you meet him. And like, but I remember him from when I was a kid and all that stuff. Do you remember him on General Hospital? I don't. I mean, I know he was on General Hospital. I know he was at Luke Lenora's wedding. Oh, wow. So just to be at that wedding, it's like literally being at like Princess Diana. It's like being at a notable wedding. Totally.

Yeah, yeah. But anyway, Richard Simmons, he was at all those things. We talked about making a documentary. I kept going to the class. He said no, but I kept going to the class for like a year and a half. And we started talking more and we started becoming friendly and we were going to do something and then we weren't going to do something. And then I moved to New York and then he disappeared. And I heard that he had stopped teaching his classes and he had stopped responding to my emails and my texts.

And which is very unusual for him. And I just let it go. And then like a year later, I heard he's still missing and people were really concerned. Like they actually can't get a hold of him, period. Like they don't have proof of life. Yeah. And it was real. It was it was really real for somebody that was so he was so social and friendly with with his fans and he would help them lose weight and he would be friends with them for 10, 20, 30 years. They were his family and he cut them all off.

And so it was really scary. And then I was going to make a documentary, but then I talked to some people and we thought maybe it would be a podcast. And it made more sense to have it be a podcast anyway, because there has to be a host in a podcast. Yeah. I was sort of part of the story. And so I just knew I would have to be in it a little bit. And that just seemed like a more natural thing. And so I said, yeah. And I was just so... I'd never done a podcast before, but I was just so confident about talking about the story. And I just thought it encapsulated so much. And I just really wanted to get it out there that like...

That sort of protected me from any sort of fear I had of doing something new. Because it was just like, I just really wanted to do it. I'm so sorry, by the way, his recent passing. Yeah, he did. You know? Yeah. I felt really weird about that. I was going to ask you what your react, like how, I mean, it was in July, right? So it was really recent. And how did you find out and what was your sort of feeling when it happened? I saw it on like a push notification came.

And I sort of got that weird, um, buzzy feeling. It felt like I was hearing like, oh fuck. I felt like I was hearing like somebody important to me died. Yeah. Oh yeah. But it felt like I knew it was somebody I knew and I did, but you know, I haven't seen him in years and I,

I just always knew, I've always known that it would be weird when he died because it was such a weird relationship. And it was. It just felt really strange and sad. But also like... Complete in some way? It's certainly the end of the story as far as it goes with me. I mean, also he was planning on coming back.

Yeah. He was planning a comeback that I wasn't really looking forward to because I just people love him so much. And Richard Simmons in person is a lot different than Richard Simmons in theory. And I just knew that he was trying to tell his own story, but I knew the type of story he wanted to tell about himself. And it was sort of true, but it was the truth he wanted. And it was what he thought people would be interested in, but they probably wouldn't be. And you're like, I'm the storyteller. Let me.

No, everybody gets to tell their own story. But he had told it so many times as Richard Simmons in front of that classroom that he doesn't even hear it anymore. And so he was... He was truthy. Truthy-ish. Yeah. Yeah. And sort of just not what's really special about him. Was it a hard class? No, it was fun. It was like aerobics and like kicking and stuff. But I never... It was sweating to the oldies. Yeah, but I... Exactly. It was sweating to the oldies. But he was also very...

he would always be wearing a different costume and he would pull people out and the guys, he would like make you take your shirt off and he would like rub the sweat on your chest and like in front of everybody and like really embarrassing stuff. I know, I know. And so it was a bit of a- If you start sweating, we're going to do that too. I can do it. I can- Come on, Taberski, get it off. I didn't say no. I didn't leave. I could have left. Oh.

It was weird, but it was. If we are not Luke and Laura, I promise. But it was really wonderful. The types of people that were in it. It was like super gay and a lot of women and a lot of just sort of really unusual people. So it was just a really great mix that I'd never really gotten to hang out with before. Incredible. Yeah. A year and a half you went too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's enough time. I lost like five or 10 pounds.

I wasn't looking to, but for sure. Yeah, it was. Oh, yeah. My friend Bridget used to. Did you know Bridget Everett? She used to take that class. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've taken it with Bridget when she was in the class. I can only imagine like the energy of you and Richard Simmons and Bridget Everett all in one room. Bridget is like a little shy. Nothing compared to Richard Simmons. Yeah. Her persona is very out there. Yeah. Actual way of being is very shy. And just everybody next to him. Richard Simmons is so in command of any room he's in.

to the point, sometimes detrimentally, but usually hilariously, that you just can't, you just have to let him do his thing. You gotta let him, let Richard be Richard, as they say. Yeah, 100%. So I wanted to say, like, you've made such incredible podcasts. I could just talk about it for forever. I didn't realize you were a writer on Heaven's Gate. I loved that podcast.

That was wonderful. Oh, really? Yeah. The New England Washington podcast. Yeah, I did like the first, that was what I wrote after Richard Simmons. I did like the first drafts of that. Well, I was going to say, like between Heaven's Gate and Y2K and Running From Cops and, you know, your podcast about the forever wars and 9-11. And now, of course, mass hysteria. Like, how do you pick your subject matter? Like, how does it find you? And then how do you decide, like, yeah, this is the next thing? I don't pitch a lot. I don't go with like the clown car of like, here are my 20 pitches. Will you do this one? Because sometimes they pick the one that you didn't really want.

And then you have to do it. That's news to me. I imagine you are sort of like, hey, here's what I'm doing. Who wants to do this? That is what I'm doing. Yeah. That's actually how I pitch in my head. That's just what I'm doing. And that's how I pitch Richard Simmons. I'm doing this. And I was already shooting it on my phone. And like, however, it turns out it's happening. And there's something about that confidence that I think people appreciate that like this is happening. You want to do it with me? And that's a different thing than saying, will you please give me some money so I can start this thing? It's just you need to give people a sense that like, I'm going to push this through.

I am going to be the wrecking ball. Yes. And I feel that way if it's an idea that I really feel strongly about. And so that's why I don't pitch that often. You know, I wait till I find something that I don't understand. And the more I look at it, the more I don't understand it. And there are very few things that are like that. Most things you like, it's a controversy or if someone was murdered or like even like

Usually in my head, I know how I feel. Like I get who it is. I get I feel in the blanks and I sort of know how I feel about the story. So I'm already a little bored. But I always try to find stories where the more I know about it, the more I'm like, fuck, how do I feel about this? Like, do I feel this or this? And I'm annoyed at everybody on all sides. And I like everybody and I want to talk to them all. And so if I'm really confused and curious, that usually is a great time.

One of the things that you do so well is you take us on the journey with you. And that's a really interesting thing to get to experience. I think like as a person who listens to a lot of podcasts, that is like, I think if somebody were to say, what do you like about Dan's podcast? Most of that would be the thing. On which of your podcasts would you say you learned the most? They're all so different. I mean, Missing Richard Simmons was the first time I'd ever done anything personal. Yeah. And I didn't quite even realize I was doing something personal until I was like in episode four. Yeah.

And then you're like, oh, this is more about me than I thought it was. That was a really interesting place to end up. And

It was the first time I had done it. And so it was just very exciting. And I was supported by people who really knew what they were doing. But I will say in terms of podcasting, like you learn so much in everyone because it is so new. Yeah. I mean, I know audio has been around forever, but like just the idea of doing these limited run, like six or eight episodes about one specific topic and it has to go somewhere. And just there's not a lot outside the podcast that have been on in the past 10 years. There's not a lot to model yourself on. So you're really making it up.

every time in a certain way. And that, so you're learning a lot every time and everybody who's on the team, I think when it's working really well, they all feel like, even though I've been doing this forever, even my editor, who's so, Joel Lovell, who's so experienced, like, I think he still feels that too, that you're really able to figure out how something new works and that feeling hasn't gone away. It's interesting too because there was a time during like the podcast boom where there were more podcasts like the kind that you make, but there are fewer and fewer and fewer now. Yeah. Which brings me to Hysterical. Yeah.

In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York. There was a lot going on with these girls having outbursts. Reporting more than a dozen girls at Leroy High School say they have an illness that causes severe tics and verbal outbursts. I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad. I'm like, stop f***ing around. She's like, I can't. I felt like Linda Blair in The Exorcist. Wow.

A mystery illness spreading fast. And then next thing you know, they're going, and their arms are swinging. With a diagnosis the state tried to keep on the down low. So by then, everybody thought I was holding something bad. Well, you were holding something bad intentionally. Yeah, well, yeah. And when it finally comes out, feels positively Looney Tunes. It's called mass hysteria. Especially for a woman. It's used when doctors don't know the diagnosis. Something's wrong here.

something's not right. Is this the largest mass hysteria since the witches of Salem? It's like, no, that just does not fit. That's not it. I know it's not. Or is it something else entirely? What's the common denominator here? I remember hearing at some point, it must be a bad batch of tampons. Nationally known environmentalist Erin Brockovich sent a team to Leroy yesterday. Leroy was the new dateline and everyone was trying to solve the murder. ♪

So Hysterical launched a couple of weeks ago. It was instantly number one everywhere. Number one, how does that feel? Great. It feels amazing. What a dumb question. I know. I mean, it had been over two years since I had a project out and the industry has changed so much. So I literally wasn't sure how things get responded to anymore. Yeah. There's less chitter chatter on social media. There's less people writing about these things. And so because there's less media in general. And so I wasn't even sure if people were going to hear it.

And I mean, I know some people would, but like I wasn't sure if it would actually make a dent. And sort of culturally, like would anybody sort of talk about it or relate it to something else or mention it to you? I was listening to you on another podcast where you told the story about the bus driver. Yeah. Will you tell that story here? Just because I think it's a good entree into talking about the podcast. Hysteria? Okay. So the story is that I think it was like 2004 and there was a bus in Vancouver and it was rush hour.

And there's a bunch of people on the bus. They're going to work. And one of the guys rings the bell and he's getting ready to get off the bus. And the bus driver opens the door. Then he says to the bus driver, thanks very much. How's your day been going? And the bus driver says, great. And the guy getting off says, not for long. And he gets off the bus.

And then a couple of passengers overheard it and the driver heard it, obviously. And everybody's like, what the fuck was that? And all of a sudden the driver starts to not feel well. And he asks a couple of people on the bus, does anybody not feel it? Is anybody else not feeling great? And somebody says, yeah, I'm not either. And they start to believe that they had been that there was some sort of chemical attack. There was some sort of poison. The paramedics get there. Everybody on the bus is sick. The paramedics get there. They get sick. Yeah.

- Wow. - Yeah, there's like a bunch of people go to the hospital, they don't find anything. They don't find a chemical, they don't find bacteria, they don't find anything that would have made them sick and they're all better within a couple hours and it's over. So it's like a great little tight example of what it is to have a certain type of mass psychogenic illness. - Yes. - How that combination of fear and the things that are going on in your head and stress

can cause a reaction where you're not just having symptoms that aren't physically real or aren't physically caused, but that they end up spreading to other people. I feel something right now. Anyone? I do too. You do? Patrick? Oh my God. I feel great. Oh, I like that. That's actually fine. I like that as a countermeasure. Actually, I feel great. I feel great. Well, I read somewhere that's your view on comedy, right? It's a joke is a surprise. You just surprised us.

That was funny. You did surprise us. You surprised us. Thank you so much. You're a funny guy. And also, like, that guy getting off the bus, what a dick. Like, you know what I mean? No, I didn't. This didn't become the anecdote that launched an amazing podcast. Like, who does that? I don't know. Somebody really mean. I can think of a few people. She's not nice. I can think of a few people.

Yeah. So is that the idea? Like, did you hear that story and that's what launched your interest in the shirt? It launched, I became interested in it with Havana syndrome, which is the thing that's affecting diplomats and CIA agents. Try saying that fast. CIA agents. I can't say out on the line. I can't say it on the line. Yeah. You can't say, oh, we'll meet out on the line.

See? It's because you've got to stop with the the and the la. And all of a sudden you're in a different language at the end. And so what is hard to say? The CIA what? CIA. Oh, I have to say CIA operatives. I was always like, CIA is not hard, Dan. It's three.

It's three letters. It's three letters, yeah. CIA operatives. CIA operatives. Oh, it is? Yeah, CIA operatives. CIA operatives out on the lanai. It's hard to say it conversationally. Did you hear that? CIA operatives out on the lanai. See, now you're nailing it. CIA operatives out on the lanai. Ever since you recovered from that psychogenic illness, you really have been nailing it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it started with Havana syndrome, and then I found the story that had happened 10 years ago in Leroy, New York about all these schoolgirls

in a public high school, 19 girls all came down with basically symptoms of Tourette's syndrome at the same time. And they just wanted to swear. That's all.

That's all. Maybe. Maybe. It's one of the theories we explore. And it's fascinating. And it just became a great entry to look at the sort of hysterical illness and all its different permutations. One of the things you talk about that I hadn't really thought about, but I find to be so interesting, is that like one way of looking at psychogenic illness is telling people that they're not experiencing the symptoms that they're experiencing.

Because I was just thinking about the way that, like, this is, like, how women are treated when they go to the doctor. You know what I mean? And how it's, like, it's disproportionate. How did you get the community on your side to tell the story? Oh, what was that gorgeous noise? That happens from time to time, and I don't know why. Whatever the tone is, I want it on my phone. It was so, like, bass. Yeah.

I was like, what's that? 528HZ or what is that? What is that? It calms your DNA. Is that like the brown note? Have you heard of the brown note? I love brown. I love that. I love brown noise. What is the brown note? Apparently it's a note that you can hit that it'll make you like instantly poop your pants. No!

way i didn't know that that's not when i said i love it that's not what i thought i was loving i thought no i'm a shitter no no i am i love brown noise instead of there's white noise and pink noise yeah it's brown noise brown noise is much lower oh in its frequency like a b arthur sort of like definitely it's definitely a dorothy noise yeah we're getting there we're

We're almost there. We're almost there. We're almost there. I'm like a bull. No, I get it. I get it. Getting ready to recharge. No, I'm just really interested about how you're approached to telling the story. Like, how do you find your way in? Yeah, I mean, you don't, you take your time. We reached out to the girls who had experienced this and, you know, a lot of them didn't want to talk. A lot of them weren't sure. I mean, people reach out to them like once a week. Yeah, I saw this like huge New York Times story on the, it must happen all the time. All the time. All the time. All the time. Those poor girls.

I know, I know. This weird thing happened to us when we were in high school. I know. But it's also sort of a sweet spot for a story because it happened when they were in high school, but now they're adults. And so they can talk about something with adult eyes, adult perception that maybe a teenager couldn't quite articulate. And so I think that's what sort of made it interesting. And it was far enough away that if somebody had really been traumatized

we would be able to know and just be like, great, have a good day. And there was one or two people we were like, they were like, thanks. Nope, don't want it at all. And we're like, good knowing you. I mean, it's just the concept of mass hysteria in general. And I was reading about your research and you went all the way back. You went back hundreds and hundreds of years. It was so funny. I was saying to my husband, like, it's intimidating to listen to you talk about your research because you were like intimidatingly smart and you seem to just have an encyclopedic

way of remembering your research? I don't, it's not encyclopedic. It's just, I spend a lot of time. I mean, I literally like when I, and that's also why I don't do a lot of projects because when I commit to doing it, part of the fun of it, and I say this now being 51 years old and after working for 30 years and making things and sort of realizing that there's a lot of different parts of the business of entertainment and making things and you're not always going to be good at them.

Yeah. And a lot of them aren't fun and you don't really like a lot of the parts of it. But the parts that you like, you need to just make a bigger part of your work. Yeah. So that's the part I like. I like reading. I like talking to people. I like just really ruminating about this kind of shit. I really have the stomach for it. So to me, it just feels like it's just it's a fit because I really like to do it.

Last pre-Golden Girls question. Have you ever gone down the road and back again on a project that like you're like you thought would be interesting, but then you had to abandon because it just didn't hold up to your interest? Yeah, but never to the point, not before I had pitched it. Yeah. So I really do wait a while. I mean, I'm pitching something now that's been on my list for 15 years. It's a podcast about me. Yeah, totally. Should we tell him now? Patrick, we've been waiting to tell you. You guys, I'm totally on board. Okay.

And once there's money coming in and people are waiting for it, I'm pretty good at not saying yes to something unless I feel like I have at least a really good chance of making something work. It's never 100%. You know yourself pretty well at this point. Yeah, or at least you hope. Thank you. It's not that you're going to do the best job. It's like I have as good a shot as anybody. If I feel like that, that's usually a good sign. I like that attitude. Well, and it's you. And it's me. And I always end that way. I always go, and it's me. And I look in the mirror and I wink at you.

I'm serious. Let me fangirl. It's the kind of thing where, like, if it doesn't work, it's not you, it's the project. No, that's not true. Really? Because totally there are scenarios. I mean, I have great collaborators and editors and producers who are developing and creating these things with me. And so if I've got the wrong mix of people, sometimes that doesn't work either. Oh, yeah. And sometimes...

It doesn't work because you feel something different than you thought you would. And even though it didn't work, you still figured it out in a way. And so if you can not worry too much about the abject failure...

Anyway. We talked about this recently, though. You learned so much from your failures as well as your wins. I mean, I'm also not really failures in that case. No, they're not. But I am at that place in my work where I am. It's different than it was 20 years ago when I had an office 20 years ago around the corner and I had a teleproduction company and like it was just a lot more anxiety.

about it. And there's something about this age that I feel enough confidence and enough humility to like, I think it's the right mix. Podcasting's your thing. You're not going to leave us and go do something else? I don't think I would leave it. I might do other things as well. I mean, I'd still love to direct a film, but it always takes forever to develop these things. Yeah, yeah. And they fall apart. I mean, I spend years on things that fall apart. Wow.

Wow. Would you ever want to go back to economic policy in the White House? I would not. OK. I know shockingly little about economic policy. Yeah, I know. I don't remember a thing. Like, no question. You could convince me right now you got your master's degree in it. I was I was answering phones in the White House.

All right. Literally. Did you really? That's a lot more than I... Oh, yeah. I worked in the West Wing in the White House. Yes. Did I miss that part of the research packet? I think you did. Wow. I thought maybe you were saving it for his introduction. Sorry, I didn't care about any of that. We're going to talk about missing Richard Simmons for two hours. You know what? Before we get to the Golden Girls, let's just geek out on that for a second, if that's okay. Yeah, please. It's true. You worked in the White House. You were assistant to the Deputy National Economic Advisor. Correct. Oh, my God. But you didn't know anything about it. I knew enough. I knew how to answer phones, and I knew how to work 16-hour days. Oh, good.

And yeah, I was young and I was in the right place at the right time. But I had done a lot of internships and stuff and I was just ready to work. What got you to D.C.? Is that too long? Are we going to be here an hour? No. I graduated and I graduated and the Clinton re-election campaign was starting. Went down to volunteer for that and I was working at P3 at UNO waiting tables at night. Wow.

And then a friend of a friend had quit her job and they needed a new assistant and I just, I happened to be the one who looked. Is it called

it called the rattlesnake pasta what is it no i don't know it's really long time oh really i don't want i don't want to bum you out but they might have changed the menu since i worked there damn it is it still deep dish i don't i like the personal size deep dish yeah yeah it was like i'm sinning but it's small yeah they're gorgeous yeah yeah i could eat a couple of those and wait and you were producer on the daily show yeah yeah get out of town that was a million years ago i mean i left there in 2003 that's 20 oh my

21 years ago. 21 years ago. Wow.

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it's time to get into the golden girls let's do that all right so as we transition yeah this might be an appropriate time to let our listeners know that you are an experienced quilter tell us everything dan as we talk about golden girls like i want people quilting while they're while we are having our i can't tell you how many episodes of the golden girls i've watched while quilting yeah oh for sure yeah yeah i mean just like i mean golden girl i'll watch a couple of days do you really uh

Yeah, but usually the last thing I watch before I go to bed. Really? It's like at least an episode of The Ghost. You want to know who else is like that? Bea Arthur. One time I was her host when I was in Emerson College. Oh my God. I wrote about it in my book. I had to take her to the hotel and...

She was so horrible to me. She was horrible to me the whole night. It's one of the funniest stories of my life. Was it funny horrible or just horrible horrible? It's hilarious now, but it was horrible horrible at the time because I was like a little insecure chubby gay kid who just wanted her to be nice to me. She was horrible to me the whole night. She thought my name was Peter. I was like, I'm changing my name to Peter. And we put her in her bed at the Ritz Carlton and she goes, Peter, on the way out, find me on TV.

And I had to like frantically, but you can always count on finding the Golden Girls. And I found the Golden Girls and I turned it on in the suite in her room. And then I walked out and she goes, toodaloo. And she like from behind waved goodbye, like waved me out. That's amazing. She watches herself. She wants to fall asleep to herself.

Oh, my God. Sam. So funny. Sam. Yeah. So we heard that maybe we were going to talk about one of your favorite episodes today, The Triangle. The one where Blanche supposedly hits on. Or what? Am I giving it away? No, no, no, no, no. It's she gets hit on by Dorothy's boyfriend. Right. But Dorothy makes it seem like Blanche had hit on her. Right. Or she doesn't believe that it happened. Right. Oh, right, right. You're right. You're right. You're right. That's totally made up. Sorry to burst. I'm not trying to. Listen. It happened however you want.

you said it happens. It's a good episode. It's a good quality episode with a nice conflict, a good conflict in it. You know something? You could never be a real friend to another woman. And you know why? Why? Because you're a slut. A slut? Don't repeat everything I say. Don't repeat everything you say. I'm not

- I'm not repeating everything you say. - You just did. - I did not. Nothing you say is worth repeating. - You, Blanche, are an amoral, backstabbing, self-centered Jezebel. - You know, I was rewatching it in anticipation of this interview and I was realizing I'm really glad we got this kind of conflict out of the way early on.

five or something. Yeah. Because, you know, we were saying, we've said all through season one that Dorothy gets a lot of shit for not going on dates. Dorothy's going on dates left and right. She's like hooking up with Elliot Clayton. She's getting back together with Stan. I mean, they don't have a physical relationship at all in the episode. Right, exactly. Dr. Elliot Clayton and Dorothy basically shake hands at the end of their relationship. There's nothing. There's no physical. Oh, at the end. Of course, there's nothing at the end. No. But like, what do you want them to be doing? When they're kissing goodnight at the end of the date, you would think they would kiss, but they're like

Good night, Ellie. Good night, Dorothy. Good night, my good man. Good night, my good lady. But I just like that we got the fact that the women would put themselves, like their friendship, ahead of their romantic relationships. And we got that out of the way early on in the series. Eventually. But first we had to have Bea Arthur call her friend.

A slut and a Jezebel. You're a no-good, self-serving, backstabbing Jezebel. Is that what it was? That's not only what it was, but I think that's our new ringtone. Yeah, totally. Oh, that would be amazing. I wanted to be one of those Ampersand shirts, like no-good, self-serving, backstabbing Jezebel. Can that be like what comes up on your phone when I call you? That would be amazing. Please. Please.

that or vice versa. But what do you love about this episode? Yeah. I like first season because a lot of I like a lot of what they get wrong in the first season. It's a weird time in politics where like there's a lot of like fat jokes and a lot of like racist jokes. Every episode we're like are we saying that? We're not saying that. Entire episodes about little people although I still stand by that shrimp. The Dr. Jonathan Newman episode is great because the

Incredible. What's funny about that episode is that he's the one with the most confidence in the room. He's thinking about how he's going to make fun of Blanche for being so nervous. And he's the catch. Like, he's obviously the one that everybody wants to hang out with. And everyone falls in love with him in the end. It's so true. So I like that's just sort of like the awkwardness of being able to watch TV shows and like, oh, did you know that there's a show, a Golden Girls episode that you can't watch anymore? The one where there's blackface.

Oh, really? Tell me how it harms you. Daniel Elizabeth Taberski, listen to me right now. I know...

What I meant to say was it makes our job a little more challenging because it messes up the season and episode numbers. Oh, I get it. Small price to pay, I guess, in comparison. Right, but that was a different season. So first season is great for that. I like that episode because of the punch. I like that she punches him and it's a real punch. I do too. We'll talk about that. It's a good punch. Lance, you feel all right? You feel a little flushed to me. I do? Yeah, let me check your pulse.

It's racing. You know what? So is mine. I beg your pardon? You are a very attractive woman, Blanche. I know. Very attractive. Very attractive. Now, wait a minute. What are you doing? How dare you? What kind of a woman do you think I am? Come on, relax. Relax? Don't you tell me to relax.

I am not accustomed to being manhandled. I thought you'd be flattered. Well, I'm not. Pardon my strong language, but you, sir, are no gentleman. What are you talking...

Get your hands off me. That is not fully worth it. That is a hit. Yeah. Because she says, I'm not accustomed to being manhandled. And if you rewatch that moment, it is actually, he's really won't let her go. She's trying to like. She's trying to worm her way out of it. She's trying to worm her way out. It feels visceral. It feels visceral to me. Yeah. It feels a little dangerous. Yeah. She is being manhandled. It's a very strange thing to watch. It is a non-consensual moment. Totally. And it's also, I was like, one of my favorite things about this episode is the bar cart.

We never see it before. They never drink. I know. It's so nice to see. I know. And they just are fish in this episode. Yeah. There's like a little snifter. Yeah. I love that you caught the snifter. Well, she gets a snifter, but yeah. It's a carafe. You see a carafe of something dark and a carafe of something.

And she's pouring it for everybody. After it happens and then Rose is in the room, she's trying to decide if she's going to tell Dorothy. Yeah. She's pouring these like, get a little drunk cocktails. That's what I would do if that was happening to me. But also that what she's wearing in that scene is incredible.

She looks amazing because she's ready for bed, you know? So that is a nightgown. We go through this a lot. I know what you're saying because it's kind of, there's a beautiful wrap around the waist. Yes. I thought it was a dress, but it's beautiful, like a bathrobe. But what an incredible way to dress if you're going to bed and you're a woman to dress like. There's a very fine line in my life between what is clothing and what is bed clothing. Yeah. I believe that. I will say.

sleep in what I'm wearing if it's too late. Totally. But I remember when it was beautiful. It was like, if it was like a pen en noir. But the color's really nice. I mean, it was gorgeous. It was gorgeous. Yes. The color's really nice. Yeah. Anyway. So I like that. And also, Rose in this episode has a great outfit. She never has great outfits. Yeah.

And she has a beautiful dress that one of the only dresses that I remember where it's like, oh, shit, that's really pretty. It's just like a floral dress. Is it when she's trying to seduce Elliot Clayton or no? It's not. It's not where she's bouncing on her legs like that. She's like, we stand up. The hips. Yeah, he's got it. Never has there been a string of funnier fucking lines in that scene. Has anyone ever told you you look exactly like Jerry Vale? No. They should.

He's the only man in the world that can make the hair on my arms stand up. Can I fix you a drink? No, thanks. Is something wrong with your leg? Nothing you can't fix, doctor man. I think you're fine. I know I look square, but I'm like my father's tractor. I take a while to warm up, but once I get going, I can turn your topsoil till the cows come home.

Rose, please. Want to see some Polaroids of me in my tennis skirt? Look, Rose, I'm flattered, and please, no offense, but you're just not my type. Oh, really? Dr. Elliot Clinton, you're not going to tap that? You're going to say no now? I know. I know. I was wondering if, have you ever been in a situation in your life where you've had to tell a hard truth to a good friend? No.

Have you ever been manhandled by a doctor and then had to tell? And had to punch them? No, I would not have told the truth. You wouldn't have. If it were you, you would have not told her. And this was the 80s? No, no, no. Now I would, I think, because they would. Yeah, now I would. Yeah. But I would probably be like, you're not going to believe what he did. For Blanche to have to, like, be the hot one and be like, I'm so sorry, this doctor. He put his big arm around my tiny little waist. Yeah, yeah.

Her alleged titular wife. Her alleged titular wife. That's a great performance for her as well in that episode. No joke in that. And in terms of solidifying who their characters are, like when he says, you know, you're a very attractive woman, she goes, I know. I know. But she says it with such confidence. I know.

She's not even delivering it as a joke. She's still concerned that this guy's hitting her. She's just answering the question. Matter of fact. Super matter of fact. We had Stan Zimmerman, who was one of the staff writers for season one, and he was saying the first thing that Ruma Clanhan said to him and his writing partner was challenge B.

me like I want her to be a complicated character so like give her like real stuff to do and they really do that I would say throughout the series but in season one you see Blanche in complicated situations and it's funny because we're dealing with like in season one we meet a lot of family members so it's like I feel like there was a lot of sort of like we don't know exactly

who these women are yet. So it's great when you get an episode that is just about kind of their dynamic. Yeah, for sure. Because it's also another thing about them is that like they're new roommates. You know, they're older women. They're new. They haven't lived together that long. They have to like learn each other. Blanche throws Dorothy out. Yeah. Right. But also this

this episode because we were saying like that's a friendship breaker right there I mean the level that it escalates to I will say that's the only part of the show episode I don't like is the end no is the end where she's like I don't know if I can ever forgive you and she goes okay and she goes okay I forgive you like that was it that episode I remember saying like I'm gonna need more time like that was like but also it's like 23 minutes right yeah so the sitcom can happen yeah

Yeah. Dorothy's got to move into the empty nest house. We've been saying for the first five episodes, like, that happens a lot, like grumpy Dorothy. I know. Move out. Yeah, totally. You know? I have a question, too. If you had to say two questions, two-parter, who do you think people who know you best, which golden girl would they say you are, and which one do you think you are, if pressed?

You've not thought about this before? I'm not really. I mean, when people say Selection City, I just think it's funny when people are just like, I'm a Carrie, I'm a Carrie. You can be a combination. I'm a Carrie. I know. It's like, what are you? I'm Harry Potter. What are you? I'm Gryffindor. I'm brave. I don't want to be Gryffindor, but I am. I don't know. I don't know. I'm not a Blanche. I'm probably a Dorothy.

You strike me as a Dorothy. You know what? That was my vote. Yeah. I believed it when I said, yeah, that was her. And you think your people would say that to your inner circle? I don't think they would ask me. They would deign to ask me such a. Really? Yes. But I did. Do your friends live in fear of you? Oh,

God, do I owe you an apology? I dame. No, I think what they know, I think people who know me, I just, I'm by to them all. We're all a little bit of Blanche, a little bit of Rose. I was a firm Dorothy, but my husband and everybody in my life says I'm Rose. You're Rose. How am I Rose? I'm not simple-minded. I'm just not good at that. No, but you're the person, you're the,

No. That's not it. You're feeling yourself. You know why? You're feeling yourself, too. I want everybody to see your face. You said, I'm not simple-minded. No. You know what it is? Because it looks so simple-minded. No, it's the smile, the genuine, truly, the genuine admiration you have for Dan. I can't even handle it. And that smile you had at the start. Yeah. That's your rose. Yeah. Because you're so genuine and sincere. Yeah. I like that. What made you, when you heard about the podcast...

The question really is, what is it about the Golden Girls that speaks to your soul that made you like fire off that email right away? I don't know. It's just I feel like nobody. Into the mic. Into the mic, Kent. I don't know. I was about to get like really serious. But I think a lot about television is not just something that we watch. I think because especially people who watch television, just like it's on in the background, which is how I grew up. Yeah. It's something you're also experiencing. It's something that's like happening to you.

And there's something about the Golden Girls that is always just so people talk about like it's funny. It is funny. But it's also like I want to talk seriously. I mean, I could talk to you seriously about this. Yes. I could talk to you about the wallpaper in their room. I could talk to you about the clothes they're wearing. And like sometimes my husband won't talk to me about it. And like, you know, I'll watch it before I go to bed. But like but like there are things to talk about. So I just wanted to at least for me to close us out from my perspective. I just am dying to know since we're all in the same age range ish, you know.

We're all in our 30s. What was your OG with the Golden Girls? What got you first viewing this? It wasn't when I was a kid. So it wasn't when I was younger. I discovered it when it was on Lifetime. So after I was an adult in my 20s, that's when I really started watching it. Like, not obsessively, but that's when you actually could watch it over and over and over and

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that when you realize like, oh, I'm the type of person that watches something over and over and over. But when I was younger, it was just on once a week. It's funny. The one memory I have is of doing chores and moving the TV around so that I could see it while I was scrubbing the floor, which makes me sound like something from Mommy Dearest. Oh my gosh. No, no, no.

I know. No, no, no. Just doing chores. So, Annie, how was life in the orphanage? No, we had chores. We were family who had chores. Of course. And one of my chores was to clean the bathroom. Dorothy Spornack had chores. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. She did. She took out the garbage.

She made the bed. That's right. She did the dishes. I remember being like, what is that? It was a list of like 15 chores. That's when her nephew, her grandkid. Blanche's godson, like on Golden Girls was the episode. Oh, right. And remember, he's misbehaving. So they gave him chores. They gave him chores. On Golden Girls. And Blanche was like, that seems like a lot. Yeah.

Because that was the one where we found out that Blanche doesn't believe in hitting people, but then... Which no one believes. Right. And then in the next episode, she's like, she wants the jewel thieves to swing. Lynch. Lynch they use, Jesus. I know. I know. It's amazing. I know. Yeah, totally. Well, that's a common story. Like, I watched it at first with my grandmother when I was that age, but I was like, what is this? This is old people talking.

TV. Oh, God. And not you, but that was me. And then when I got to New York, you know, late teens, early 20s, I was like, this is the...

the greatest show that's ever lived. And the last thing I'll say is as a follow-up, because you intrigue me, I'm one of those people that love reruns. I like to watch things over and over again. I don't know if the reason is the same as mine, please tell me, but I find it soothes something in my brain, the repetition. I just love it. It's a theory I have about television. You know, I did a whole series about the reality show Cops. I mean, we watched every episode, and I had seen like 500 episodes of the show. I watched Cops like I watched Golden Girls. And I do think that there is a way of watching shows like that that

I don't think it's sort of studied. I don't know if you're supposed to study it, but like where it just doesn't become, you're not just watching the thing for what it is. It's on the background and you're watching it with a sort of different eye. And so you're noticing all these other things. You're just noticing, you're watching, you're watching the world. You're watching the furniture, the clothes, the

That's how we're doing it now. It's like you almost, and thank God we've seen these episodes 800 times already because now it's like, what is she wearing and what does that say? But it's not even, yeah, I don't even look at it as like something like, I'm crazy and obsessed with this show. It's just like, it's interesting to watch things. Yeah. Well, and that's why doing the deep dives is also interesting because we did a whole deep dive on the costumes, but then you start to really pay attention to what they're wearing and like what

does that mean and why are they wearing that that sort of thing and you know stan gave us a lot of like background information just on like set life and what that would like the dynamics between the people and you know like stan and his writing partner are both gay and they couldn't be out on the set of the course he wrote blanche and the younger man yeah when alma comes to visit rose's mother comes to visit and uh of course blanche going out with well thank you dick you did this

Dirt. Dirt. I love that way the lips have to do it. She's like, I'll see you out in the van, Dirt. Right. Oh my God, right. But they also said that they weren't asked back for season two or beyond because they believed because they were gay. Wow. Or at least that was a big part of it, which is just like a wild thing to learn about the Golden Girls. Yeah. That's incredible. Yeah. That's amazing. Wow.

You know what else is amazing, Dan Taberski? You are amazing. Get out of here. Thank you. Will you come back and do another one of these with us? Yeah, 100%. Okay. I think it should be a different, I mean, you know, we could get going on episode five. We could get going on episode, like the first half of season seven. Which one is that one? No, the first half of season seven. Well, my favorite episode. What? No, it's not the murder mystery weekend. Okay.

Wait, is that your favorite episode? Your other favorite episode? I don't know. The case of the Libertine Bell. Yeah. There's something. That episode is so fucking funny. Minute for minute jokes.

Jokes like callback jokes where she's like, I got it. I made her do some kind of waiter. It's the funniest fucking joke ever written. It's so good. Or Good Morning Miami with the lesbian episode. Oh, God. I take out the garbage. Oh, God.

And also like grab that dough. Yeah. Come on. Totally. All right. Well, we're best friends. What a pleasure. Thank you for coming. Thank you. It's really, really fun to hear you laugh. Oh, good. It's like a whole new side of you for me. Oh, good. Yeah. Okay. Well, here you go. Thank you. This has been really great. Thank you for coming. Thanks, man. Bye, Debra. We love you. Bye. Bye. Oh,

Oh, Cheesecakes, thank you so much for listening to our episode with the amazing podcast superstar Dan Taberski. You got to check out all of his podcasts, including my favorites, Hysterical and Missing Richard Simmons. Oh, and if you pop over to his Instagram, you can see his quilting. Yes, it's at Dan Taberski. The quilts are, they're pretty incredible. Well, go check them out. We'll be back next week with our regular deep dive and recap episode, like you've been hearing up to now. It's episode 24.

12, the custody battle where we meet Gloria, Dorothy's sister. She's so rich. She's rich, bitch. Listen, love you. See you next week, Cheesecake. We love you, Cheesecake. Bye. Bye. Bye.