Kelly Clarkson on Writing About Divorce
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This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Welcome to the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Way back in 2002, the new show American Idol proved itself

in its very first season, yielding a star who immediately became a real American idol, Kelly Clarkson. Hello, Kelly. Hello. How old are you? I'm a big fan of you, by the way. Thank you very much. I'm 20. I just turned 20 this April. Oh, happy birthday. She won the first season at the tender age of 20, and she had hits for years before launching her talk show on NBC in 2019.

Clarkson is 41 now and just released an album that deals with the long arc of a relationship and her recent divorce. She spoke the other day with our staff writer, Hanif Abdurraqib, who writes brilliantly on music, and he's passionate about the craft of songwriting and singing. Here's Hanif.

Late last year, I was talking to the poet Ross Gay, and he kept saying that if he were to start a band, he would be a singer. And he couldn't explain why, and he just kept repeating this phrase, I just love singers. I grew up loving singers. And I realized that I, too, did not have language for this, but I knew for a fact that I also loved singers. I grew up

up loving singers. I grew up loving Nihalia Jackson, Aretha Franklin, Toni Braxton, Mary J. Blige, and on and on and on. Kelly Clarkson is a singer I have loved for a long time. I didn't watch American Idol, and I have maybe never watched a full season of American Idol. And so there is a way that I missed the earliest act of her career and came in around what would be considered act two, her second album and beyond.

And what I loved about Kelly Clarkson and arriving to her in this way specifically is that I did not think about the framing of her as a pop star. Kelly Clarkson to me was a rock singer. I thought she was more like Ann Wilson than anything, especially when I began to see her live and her bands were so loud and she was always kind of leading them, atop them, pushing the volume. Who said she'll be gone?

And Chemistry, it is an album that details a very public divorce. It's raw, it's beautiful on its face writing that traverses both pain and rage, but also gratitude and pleasure. I was thrilled to talk with Kelly a little bit about the record. Hi, Kelly. How are you doing? I'm so good. How are you, man? I'm good. I'm good. Thanks for making a little bit of time this morning. I'm excited to talk to you about Chemistry, which I loved and...

I'm such a big fan of your career as a writer, not just as a singer. And I'm really interested in...

how you felt your writing evolved on this record. It felt, you know, I feel like you've always been a great writer, a confessional writer or a writer who puts themselves first and foremost at the front of their narratives. But it also felt like this album, the writing was a bit less metaphorical and more direct in a way. And I was wondering kind of how you evolved through the process of writing this record that is maybe the most personal record you've completed. Yeah.

Yeah, I think it's easier to hide in metaphors when it's not the biggest thing that's ever happened. So it was very hard because I kept trying as well, you know, because I have children. So even whenever I was writing for me, you know, I was just, it was therapeutic and I was just getting it out. That was just more out of necessity for me. I think it ended up

You know, anytime I try and go back in, because I did quite a bit, actually. Nobody's asked me this question. Good question. But I did try and go back and go, how could I rephrase that to where? And then it ended up being this

I was jumping in like through hoops to try and make it. And it's like, everyone's going to know. It's not like, you know, whatever I say, like everyone, it, you know, unfortunately my life is very public, especially in the rough times. So anything that was,

out there, I felt like was okay, fair game because the kids are going to probably ask me in the future about that. Anyway, they're too young. They don't get it. We don't allow them on the internet like that anyway. But anyway, so it's easier to write metaphorically when one, it's like a situation that you're touching on or maybe it's like a

you know any time in the past it's been about a breakup or something that's a lot different than a marriage and like someone you thought you were going to spend the rest of your life with and that crumbling so I think it's more my writing is more mature I think just because of circumstance um and age obviously um because I think overall if you listen to like my first record even the writing on that with like Miss Independent or Trouble with Lovers like those are

Those are songs that are not necessarily immature. They're right for that stage, right? They're right for that person's age at that time, right? But yeah, no, it was impossible to write metaphorically for me because it was therapeutic. So this is what I mean when I'm singing it, you know? And I think that, you know, that started to become something I would want to listen to. You know, I remember whenever I got Jagged Little Pill and I was like,

I think late junior high, isn't that came out for me. And that's the Alanis Morissette record. We're about the same age. So that came out for me also in junior high. Yeah. I, it was just so honest and, and no, like, I mean, she, yes, there are metaphors here and there just cause she's clever and incredibly intelligent, but, but for the most part, you knew exactly kind of what was going on. And that honesty was something that I latched onto. Even Mary J. She was one of those people too, that I felt like when I listened to like,

Anytime you hear her sing, too, there's just a certain honesty. Bonnie rates like that. But anyway, I just... I don't know. I think there was no...

There was no option, you know? And like when you're that sad and like broken, I think it just has to come out how it comes out. Yeah. What I love about this album, and I think actually what I think shows an arc of your work, but really comes to light most ferociously on this album, is that it's not just a sad album. I actually think it's reductive to call it a divorce album, or at least it feels that way to me because there's a lot of tenderness on it. And I think... Yeah.

It balances, and I think it's sequenced wonderfully because it balances sometimes anger, sometimes pleasure, sometimes a kind of wistful longing. How did you get to a place where you were...

Where you could honor the full arc of a relationship when it would perhaps be easier to kind of make a straightforward, somewhat salacious divorce record, especially due to the public record. Definitely easier to write those songs. Yes. You know, it's out now, but like this literally was real time. Like this record was written before.

years ago. Like, I mean, most of the songs on this record were written right when everything was happening. So even like when it comes to like Down To You, Down To You on this record was written while I was married. So some of them were, you know, real, real time. And then also I think when you're in

It's magic, it's magic, I like the way you speak, it's magic, it's magic

or chemistry or you know any any of those you know favorite kind of high like remembering like that that song was really important for me to have on the record because i favorite kind of high is like the beginning take me home tonight kiss me how you like i've been waiting for you i know you ain't shy well neither am i what you waiting for yeah

The reason why the record does have It's Not Just a Divorce album is because in real time, that was me being indecisive of like, man, I have kids. Like, this is, do I want to do this? Like, do I want to, can I try again? Like, can I, like, you know, it's just, you're literally seeing me go through this.

Okay, but remember, it's like this and da-da-da. And honestly, that's a very good example of how unhealthy we can be in relationships. Because if something's bad for you and it's a cancerous environment, it's nothing as good left to hold on to, you should walk away. But I think we get that thing, especially in a relationship, right?

I think we have habits or tendencies, be it childhood trauma, be it whatever, that you kind of sink back into. And that's why you go back down and then you go back up and then you go back down. So you're seeing me go through what I'm going. I'm writing these songs, figuring out what the hell I'm going to do. That's like what is happening during this album. I need a tool.

And I think Lighthouse, I don't think, I know, because I remember writing that song. That was the moment when I was like, all right, like, I can't. Lighthouse was one of the last ones I wrote for the album. And it was for me, like,

We're both drowning. Like, we've got to. Like, we're nowhere near each other. We can't see each other. Like, we're no, this is never going to, you know, I've got to swim to shore at some point or we're just going to die out here. The wave you're always crashing into me, crashing into me. And these days are harder than they used to be, than they used to be. No shooting stars can fix what we are. What good's a lighthouse when the light is?

One thing that I really loved to talk about your writing technique and ability in watching your writing evolve is it's become more playful, I think, and more tongue-in-cheek. So, for example, one of my favorite songs on the record is Red Flag Collector, which is not at all funny, I think, in a traditional sense, but it is fun. And I was wondering if just spending time in front of people, interviewing people, talking to people all the time on the talk show, if that has impacted your songwriting and made it this kind of...

joyfully conversational, available for playful detours, these kind of things. You know, I never really thought about that, but it probably...

It most definitely has affected me. I mean, just, and I bet I'm like that at dinner now too, like with people, like I bet I'm like, and people are like, you know, we're not on stage and not interviewing someone. But I also think just age, right? Like, I think that, that plays a part too. And it depends on where you are in life and like how, I mean, that's a huge thing to happen to someone. I think we hear it's a statistic, right? Like,

chances are like half the time or probably more than half at this point, you're not going to make it like in marriage. Like I know the statistic is there, but it doesn't make it less impactful. It doesn't make it less, you know,

dramatic and enormous in your life. So I think also just something that happens that's so huge, there's nowhere to go but really super honest. And also, if you use humor as a healing mechanism, then you've kind of got to laugh. It's like, oh my God, we're talking about

Like, you know, like we're like my heart is broken on the floor and we're talking about who gets the towels. Like, I can't have that conversation. I can't actually like and then and then you have to go to humor because if you don't go to humor, you go to a very, very dark place. But I just think it's just it's such a things happen and you're just like, what?

Yeah. Yeah. You know, you're just taking it back. Heartbreak is a kind of absurdity. And the logistics of heartbreak present a real absurdity, but also falling in love is equally a bit absurd. And I, I not, maybe not in the same way, but it presents this idea of knowing what the damage could be, knowing the statistics of the potential for heartbreak, falling in love presents a kind of absurdity. And I, I'm,

Curious how your writing of an interest in love songs has changed as you've aged, not even just with this specific dislocation of a divorce and still finding. But throughout your whole career, I mean, this isn't your first, obviously not your first foray into either breakup anthems or love songs. But I'm curious how that approach of writing the love song has changed. I've always been like, since I was a kid, like this person that if the reality is not great, I will create it.

in a form, you know, like saying, like if your home life isn't great, you will create something in your head to like, you know, heal or deal, not heal, deal. And I don't know. I think that's kind of, because I don't want to be like the person that's like, I don't believe in it because I definitely do. It's not, I don't hate love. I know the song is on there, but I don't hate love. But, you know, it's never, it's,

love has been a hard go for me. Like, you know, whether it's like parent or, you know, friendships even sometimes, or, you know, I've only been in love, like love like that, like with my ex, but, but it just, it doesn't seem to work out so great for me. So then you have to go, well, what's wrong with me? Like, you know, at some point you're like, and then that's what therapy is for. But, and then you find out too, like,

sometimes your personality you attract these certain people right so um writing love songs is hard for me it's it's never been easy for me i think whenever i write a love song you know there's always like that that elephant in the room of like um sadness as well i really love that you mentioned mary j blige because i i think that um

both of your approaches, which I really admire, not only in my own writing, but in the things I consume. I like a love song that is a bit skeptical. And I think Mary J. Blige, for me, when I was young, was a real, like the real gold standard of writing a skeptical love song. I think that's a really great, like,

I've met her too. And first of all, so cool and so sweet, but also very honest in person. Like, you know, like very vulnerable in person, which is cool. But no, I think that's a very good example. That's what, why it's not even like her songs are great, but her voice, like Mary's voice is,

It's an incredible thing to have hope, sadness, determination, and constantly hurtling. You're having a fight. She just has all these kind of things in her tone that you can't teach someone. That's a life. That's a life that's been living that, and that's why it sounds like that. Chris Stapleton's a person like that, too, that just has this natural...

you know, gift for whatever's been going on in his life. But like, it has molded this sound that is even when they're singing a love song, it sounds like heartbreak, you know? Right. Right. Yeah. I, speaking of sound, I've, I've seen you live through a few different eras, you know, in, um, you know, when you were coming out of Idol, um,

It never, you know, I was much younger then, but it still never really struck me the way that you were kind of boxed in, the way that one gets boxed in when coming out of Idol is kind of like clearly a pop idol. And so I was really thrilled, you know, seeing you during some of these eras where you're playing with very loud bands, you know, so like All I've Ever Wanted, that kind of My December, these eras where it seemed like you were, you know, more...

it's more like Ann Wilson, you know, like fronting a very loud rock band. And then I, you just read my mind. I was like, well, I'm a huge Ann Wilson fan. So I'm, I, I think it's all my influences. I think that's the thing. Like people always tell me, even with the Kelly Oki part of like on the talk show, it's like,

It's like y'all are just seeing that and being like, oh, she now she's dabbling. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. A lot of us artists like we all grew up listening to different things. Like I love Aretha Franklin. I love Annie Lennox. I love Ruby McIntyre. I love Aerosmith. I love Mary J. Blige. You know, I love Toni Braxton. I can sing all that. I know all the riffs. Mariah Whitney. Like I grew up listening to Guns N' Roses.

Like I'm a decade younger than my brother. So a lot of his influences musically, whenever I was really little and we all still live together, I heard that. So like white snake, like all that stuff. So that's why ACDC usually I open every show with that. Like I, I like I've always, and I think all artists, we were like a, a culmination of all these people that have inspired us. Right. And that forms our sound. And, and that for me is, has been the greatest. I love interviewing and I love what the show does.

like, cause I just love talking. So I love people like it. It's, I've obviously always had a gift of gab, which got me in trouble in high school, but, but it's working now. But I love that part of it, but also a huge part of me, like the main part for, for me as an artist is,

is getting to show people, like, first of all, highlight all this music that maybe you never heard, like new indie artists too, or older artists, maybe that the younger people watching haven't heard of. But it's also just being able to display like what I want my radio station to sound like. You know what I'm saying? Like, I want to hear all this stuff on in one place, you know? Kelly Clarkson, thank you so much for spending a little bit of time with me this morning. I really appreciate it. I love the record and thank you for your work. Yeah. Thank you so much.

I ain't your little girl. You're confused and I've lost patience. Take your hurt for words. Kelly Clarkson, the deluxe version of her album Chemistry, comes out this weekend. She spoke with staff writer Hanif Abdurraqib. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour with more to come. Keep the money, I'll take freedom. Like to do things that you don't, that's right. I like the ocean, that's right. I sink my toes and that's right.

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This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. Robert Samuels is one of our newest staff writers, and he just won a Pulitzer Prize as the co-author of the book, His Name is George Floyd, a biography of George Floyd. I'll let you in on a little secret. The first time I met Robert, and I was trying to get him to join the New Yorker, he insisted on a pretty peculiar term in our deal. He wanted me to promise that in addition to his covering politics, he could be our figure skating correspondent.

He was kidding, but not really. Robert really is a figure skating fanatic, and he has been for a pretty long time.

When I was in second grade, my second grade teacher was a big figure skating fan and she put up a copy of this Newsweek article that featured who I thought was the most beautiful woman I had ever seen. And it was Christy Yamaguchi. And I, you know, I fell in love and I wanted to know everything about her. So I started watching the Olympics.

And now, a few years past the second grade, you told me that you watch skating as a form of procrastination. You know, I'll sometimes watch people breaking down a guitar solo on a YouTube video. You're watching skating videos. How come? Over time, it went from me just watching and enjoying sport to seeing these kind of metaphors for life and metaphors for writing.

And I know that sounds strange, but I feel like in the world of journalism, especially when I started, lots of people were getting laid off and lots of people were losing their jobs. It felt like you were doing something that was singular by yourself, but you're also a part of a really slippery ecosystem.

And I started watching videos on YouTube whenever I felt distracted or needed a break or needed to be excited because I started envisioning my writing process as being a figure skating competition. What are your go-to clips? What's, say, the first one that comes to mind?

The first clip that comes to mind when I'm feeling particularly down and I feel my best days are behind me is this clip from the 2000 World Figure Skating Championships.

What is astounding about this video is for, you know, like for the early part of my childhood, Michelle Kwan was unbeatable. Everyone thought she was the best thing ever. And then she goes to the Olympics and she loses the Olympics to Tara Lipinski. And it's a surprise. But, you know, Tara Lipinski bursts on the scene. She's young, she's fast. And after the Olympics, she doesn't compete again. Michelle Kwan continues, but it's not...

the same Michelle Kwan. She's slower, she's not jumping as well, and she starts losing, like, you know, coming in second and sometimes winning, but it's, you know, she's not skating with this sort of authority.

And so when she gets to this long program, she's in third place and she needs to do something magical to win because the other girls she's competing with, they're now doing jumps that are harder than she's doing. So she needs to find something within herself to win. - She recently moved out of the dorm at UCLA to an apartment closer to her training site, cuts out on her class load to concentrate on skating. - There's a part of,

the video at the very beginning when Peggy Fleming, who's commentator, she's quoting Michelle Kwan's coach Frank Carroll. Coach Frank Carroll says that's the way of sport. You have to continue to make progress or you'll get left in the dust. The nature of sport is that you have to continue to make progress or you get left in the dust.

And I continue to think about that all the time, you know, that it's not just important to be good at what you're good at. You have to continue pushing yourself or else you might be rendered irrelevant. Now, what is the climax of this? What is what is the, you know, moment of this Michelle Kwan video?

So, after this jumping pass here, which is Triple Lutz Double Toe Loop, you're going to see her build a great amount of speed because she's going to attempt to do a triple-triple combination. That's three revolutions in the air immediately followed by another three revolutions in the air. Every girl in the world is doing this and she hasn't been hitting it consistently.

So now you're seeing her skate super duper fast. And here's the first three on the toe right here. And there's another immediate three. Oh, she killed it. Kills it. So this is the side that Michelle Kwan has come to play. She's looking a lot better than she's looked over the past two years since she lost the Olympics. Okay, this is way better than learning how to make a spaghetti bolognese. I think I'm going to start watching these YouTubes.

Let's move on to the 2016 World Championships. What are we going to watch here? Okay, this one is of Javier Fernandez. He's a skater from Spain. The first breakout star from the country of Spain, which is very exciting. Now, there's some comic element to this.

Yeah, so this is a performance set to the music of Guys and Dolls and he is pretending, he's sort of taking on a character as Nathan Detroit or one of the gamblers. Javier is obviously a multiple quad jumper as well, smooth and easy. That's his style. And so he's setting up for a quadruple toe loop.

Here, fan music! Glorious! Glorious! Javier Fernandez kind of came from nowhere. There was no culture of skating in Spain. And sometimes, you know, as a black journalist who does sort of long form or enterprise reporting, you kind of feel out of place. And so I always remember the day Javier Fernandez came and no one thought he was going to win any wins. And it's one of those really inspiring things for me.

There it is. Just like that. That's why he's a world champion. Now, the final, the pick three, we've got Gabriela Papadakis, did I say that right? And Guillaume Cizeron. That's correct. It's 2018. We're in the Olympics. Papadakis and Cizeron, the French team, their final performance is to Moonlight Sonata. The Beethoven Top 40 hit.

I know, you know, not the most thrilling piece of music, but what they do with it is expansive. Now, the trick about looking at ice dance is you have to train your eyes to essentially look at the bottom up.

Because the legs, how they sway, how they lean from one side, their connection to each other, is how you can tell a good ice dancer from a poor ice dancer. But what's so expressive about this is, you see the fluidity in their legs? They're just kind of like breathing the Moonlight Sonata, right? You can almost hear the sound without hearing it.

What is amazing about this, right, is here they are, they're skating so close together, their blades could collapse at any moment, but it actually looks like they're conducting the music. They've just imbued it in this really chest-clenching way. And for me, this is about authority, right? This is about

taking a piece that's well known and completely owning it and making it your own through what you can do. So the message of all this and the outcome of all this is that in exchange for having to deal with the politics of this world for the next couple of years, you're going to go for the New Yorker to the Winter Olympics. You're looking forward to that? Oh, yeah. Oh, man, I cannot wait.

You won't have to wait till 2026 to read Robert Samuels. You can find some of his reporting already at newyorker.com. Robert is the co-author of the book. His name is George Floyd, which won the Pulitzer Prize. I'm David Remnick, and that's the New Yorker Radio Hour for today. Thanks for listening, and see you next time.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbess of Tune Yards with additional music by Louis Mitchell. This episode was produced by Max Balton, Brita Green, Adam Howard, Kalalia, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, and Ngophen Mputubwele, with guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Mike Kutchman, Michael May, David Gable, and Alejandra Deckett.

The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherena Endowment Fund. Walmart has straight talk wireless, so I can keep doing me. Like hitting up all my friends for a last minute study sesh. Or curating the best pop playlist you've ever heard in your life. And even editing all my socials to keep up with what's new. Oh yeah, I look good. Post it. Which all in all suits my steady poppy main character vibes to a T. Period. Find and shop your fave tech at Walmart.com.