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Listener supported. WNYC Studios. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour, a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. I'm David Remnick, and this is the New Yorker Radio Hour. Today, we've got an unusual sort of holiday story to share with you. It starts back in 1979. On the 22nd of December...
which was a Saturday. Your mother and I had been out grocery shopping, so when we returned, we found the telegram. I read the telegram aloud to her, and it said something like, the Revolutionary Council of Iran is pleased to invite you to conduct Christmas services with the Americans in the U.S. Embassy. That's the Reverend M. William Howard, Jr.,
He received that telegram as the Iran hostage crisis was unfolding. Howard was a prominent minister, the president of the National Council of Churches. He also happens to be the father of our senior producer, Adam Howard. So when this came across your mail and you're reading it with mom, I mean...
Did you even hesitate for a minute or did she raise any concerns or reservations about you going? Well, as you know, I've done some pretty daring things in my younger days. One of the things she often said when I was given invitations to go to various places like Syria or Guatemala, she would look at me and say, "Is this what you think you need to do?"
During the hostage crisis, revolutionaries in Iran invaded the embassy because of America's ties to the Shah. The Shah was the country's corrupt last monarch, and he'd been propped up largely by the CIA. Now, by that point, the Shah was in the United States, receiving treatment for terminal cancer. The revolutionaries had vowed to occupy the embassy until the U.S. sent him back, something that the United States was refusing to do.
They had taken more than 50 hostages, and my father got his invitation seven weeks into the crisis. Now, I wasn't even born yet. My older brother Matthew was two.
Shortly after I received the telegram, it came on the news that American clergy had been invited. And they mentioned that William Sloan Coffin, who was leader of the Riverside Church in New York, and Bishop Thomas Gumbleton of the Roman Church were going to also go.
My father and the other clergymen were asked to be there because of their reputations within their religious communities, but they were also known to be progressive-minded people, which didn't hurt. And we agreed to meet the following day at Riverside in New York. We met and we thought about, you know, the implications of this. We began to call around and speak with people who could give us some kind of orientation. We talked with
then Secretary of State Cyrus Vance. What was his perspective on what he thought was happening here? Frankly, they were delighted that we had been invited because up to this time, no American had been allowed to see the Americans that were in captivity there at the embassy. So, of course, there was a lot of speculation, but no one had actually seen them.
So we were in no way discouraged from doing this. It never really occurred to me, and this was a striking question, a surprising question I received from many people who presumed that there was a level of risk involved
that we might be taken hostage. I was going to ask, I mean, was that a genuine fear that you had? No, I don't think either of us who traveled to Iran had that feeling. Why? Number one, we'd been invited. And number two, from the beginning, there was a sense of genuine respect for the religious heritage of the hostages.
Unitary. I mean, there were people there who were orthodox. There were non-believers. But there was a presumption that they were Christian. And remember, the Iranian government was overwhelmingly Shiite Islam. Right. And they wanted to show respect for the Christian faith. Now, keep in mind that prior to that time, a lot of the public discourse, news media,
They referred to these people as communists. See, they were very devout Muslims from all that I could tell before and during this event. I do want to touch back on Matthew because he was about what, you know, my daughter's age, almost at that time. I'm assuming he was far too young to understand any of what was happening. But I mean, did you explain to him that you were going away? Were you concerned about...
you know, his well-being while you were in this pretty scary situation? Well, yes, of course. And I'm not recalling the exact thing that mom and I said together, but remember, this is at Christmas, and mom was responsible for assembling toys and things like that while I was away. She
made me aware that she had quite a struggle getting him ready for Christmas. But the interesting thing about this is that the Iranian hostage crisis was the breaking news all day, you see? And Matthew literally could watch his father on television. It didn't feel, I guess, to him that I was so far away. At this moment, there are 50 Americans who don't have freedom.
who don't have joy, who don't have warmth, who don't have their families with them. And there are 50 American families in this nation who also will not experience all the joys and the light and the happiness of Christmas. How concerned were you about the fact that this was probably as much a PR move as it was sort of a genuine act of kindness? Well, let me just say, I think propaganda is always part of something like this.
But on the other hand, we had a public that was quite riled up, who knows what might have resulted if this issue were not somehow addressed. In other words, might there be an American invasion, an attempt to rescue the hostages in a militaristic way? And frankly, I saw this as an opportunity to reduce that possibility.
And this thing just kept going on and on. And a lot of vigorous protests. I don't know if you would recall. That wasn't live. You may have read about the yellow ribbons. Right, right. That thing, I think it was taken from a popular song. And there's a lot of t-shirts with the Ayatollah on it. Yes, yes, yes. But, you know, mocking his name.
They invaded a sacred part, the embassy. An embassy is a sacred part of any nation. That's what they invaded. The Ayatollah is condoning this, and we want them! As I recall, we went to the airport, JFK, and it was evident that we were getting... I'm not sure who was giving us this assistance. I thought maybe the airport authorities, because we were taken...
through a private entrance to the airport and held in a very lovely private lounge, not in the normal sort of place until our flight left. It's like you enter a situation, it's ordinary in some ways, but the gravity of it unfolds as you're in it. We arrived in Iran.
We were escorted to the, I think, the Hilton Hotel. And we walked in the door and there must have been 200 or more press people. It was a circus. I mean, people from the United States, but from all over the world wanting to meet these clergy who were about to go into the embassy. You know, I'm a Protestant clergyman.
I'm thinking Christmas, that's tomorrow, because this was in the evening of Christmas Eve. And I had staff people accompany me. And one of them came to the door of the hotel and knocked on the door and said, Bill, you'd better get dressed. We have to be at the embassy at the strike of midnight, the midnight mass.
And that's what the Muslim hosts knew about the Christian. So we dressed quickly, and literally at midnight, we were at the embassy, driving to the embassy from the hotel. You talk about paparazzi. I mean, my Lord. You know, just speeding cars, reporters hanging out the window of cars with TV cameras, and you're wondering...
Is there going to be some kind of accident here? But we arrived at the embassy and the moment we arrived and we were expected, you know. I would hope so. That would have been awkward. Yeah, we didn't surprise them. But the thing that, what happened at that point really became clear.
Interesting. They blindfolded us. Did they at least give you a warning that they were going to do that? They explained to us why we were being blindfolded. Sure. They weren't mean to us. Right. But we were completely at their mercy. Reverend M. William Howard Jr., recalling his visit to the U.S. Embassy in Tehran during the Iran hostage crisis of 1979. Our story continues in a moment. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour.
I'm Maria Konnikova. And I'm Nate Silver. And our new podcast, Risky Business, is a show about making better decisions. We're both journalists whom we light as poker players, and that's the lens we're going to use to approach this entire show. We're going to be discussing everything from high-stakes poker to personal questions. Like whether I should call a plumber or fix my shower myself. And, of course, we'll be talking about the election, too. Listen to Risky Business wherever you get your podcasts. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick.
We're hearing a story today about the Christmas of 1979, when a young pastor traveled to Tehran during the Iran hostage crisis. And at the time, the diplomatic staff of the U.S. Embassy had been held by revolutionaries for about seven weeks. Their captivity would ultimately last 444 days.
Reverend M. William Howard Jr. received an invitation to Iran by telegram, along with another Protestant minister and the Catholic bishop of Detroit. The date was December 22nd. Just two days later, Christmas Eve, the three clergymen were ushered into the embassy to meet the hostages. They escorted us to a place, sat us down. Once we were inside, they removed the blindfolds.
Now, each of us were taken to a different location. We didn't know where the other people were, our colleagues. I was brought to a large room, well-lit, and there was a table there
with uh sort of desserts you know like cookies and cakes and so forth that was the muslim understanding of how christmas was celebrated what was it like sugar cookies and things i think it was sweet stuff i don't know uh i didn't explore it because i didn't dare eat it sure sure i didn't yeah was there a christmas tree there and all that oh yes yes it was sort of like
What the Shiites imagined, maybe what they had seen on TV. Movies. Movies, you know. In walks a stream of people, obviously hostages. And some of them were wiping their eyes and looking around. And of course, they're looking at me like, who the hell is this guy? They looked as if they had been kept in maybe a place not so bright. They didn't look disheveled or abused or anything. And so...
One of the students, and let me just say, the hostages were taken by and held by university-age students. And one of them said to the incoming people, this is Reverend Howard. He's going to conduct Christmas services. How did they take that? Did they say... Oh, with a lot of reluctance. You might say suspicion, like, who is this guy? Yeah.
And once, you know, they were all seated, I said, look, if I were in your situation, I would be suspicious of me too. And I said, in so many words, look, I have a family. I'd rather be at home. But doggone it, I agreed to come over here because the nation is concerned about you. And then they began to warm up because I was not kidding around with them. You know, I said, look,
If you don't want Christmas, we could just sit here until they come and get you. And then at some point, one or two of them would say, no, Reverend, we respect what you're doing. And, you know, what do you have planned? And I said to them, look, I don't know your religious affiliation, so I'm not going to come and impose my own religious tradition on you. So you need to talk to me about what your needs are.
And I remember very early in the conversation, before anything that we might consider religious began to happen, they asked me about the NFL playoffs. That's a test if you're really an American. Yeah, are you really who you say you are, you know?
And then at some point someone asked if I would offer a prayer and we had a prayer. You know, the prayer was sort of a culmination
of the conversation of acquaintance. And it was a prayer of contrition, a prayer recognizing the need for the intervention of a divine spirit and so forth and so on, but it was not long. Oh, oh, oh.
My colleague Bill Coffin was quite the musician and I learned later that he actually played the piano for the people he was with. There was a piano there and they sang church hymns. Well, I had no facility of that kind.
But we did something that I think personally was quite affirming of the people. I said to them, "If you have as individuals something you want to share with me of a personal nature and so forth, you know, sort of pastoral counseling, if you will, I'm going to sit here and you can come over." And there were a few people who came over.
We talked about how they were being treated and they wondered, for example, if there was a way for me to communicate with their families and was there a way for us to make an appeal for their release. And sure enough, on Christmas afternoon, a representation of our group went back to the embassy to pick up letters
that were being written by the hostages and they were subsequently delivered to the family members when we returned. So that is essentially the first sort of link the family members had with their relatives who were being held captive. And then at some point the time ended and they were escorted out of the room. My colleagues and I eventually wound up in a common room
that felt like a basement to me. And the students who actually had invaded the embassy, taken the hostages, were there. And by the way, around the wall of this room were very young men. They could have been teenagers from all that I could tell, very much armed with a
Semi-automatic rifles or automatic rifles standing around the wall of this little room. And that's when Dr. Coffin said something to the effect, how many of these folk are you going to allow us to take home? Now, when he said this, had he given you and your colleagues any warning that he was going to do this? Did you think this is completely crazy what he's doing and dangerous?
Well, I said right away, Bill, it's not that kind of situation. He was associating this with Vietnam. The Vietnamese were not driven by religion. These were people of real conviction about Islam. There was a female leader of these students, and she was known in the American media as Mary. When she spoke to him very sternly, you heard the young men cock their rifles. Cock, cock.
that kind of sound. And I said to him, Bill, you'd better leave that alone. And he backed down right away. And after that experience in that room, we also were taken to meet with the mullahs. In the Shiite tradition, the clergy are mullahs.
Did you get a sense that anybody was trying to, I hate to use the word indoctrinate because that's so loaded, but trying to get you to be persuaded as to either the message of the captors or some other alternative perspective about what was going on to bring back to the United States? No, but let me answer that in two ways. One, the students were always clear, not appearing to try and influence us, but they were very clear about
The role of the U.S. in supporting the Shah, the presence of the U.S. in Iran, the role of the U.S. in overthrowing Mohammad Mossadegh in the 1950s, they knew all of that in ways that most Americans did not. But when we went to visit the mullahs after visiting the foreign ministry, there were so many checkpoints, armed checkpoints,
And it was evident at that point that we were going to visit the real power, not the government guy, but these clergy. And we were clergy. They were clergy. So we sat in this little room. I mean, a little room. Like if a mullah was sitting here and I'm sitting here, our knees were almost touching. And that was when they really poured out all of their sufferings.
Some of them were crying. They told us stories. I'll give you one really iconic story about American teenagers riding motor scooters into the mosque at prayer time. And the leaders were unable to do anything about it because the Americans were so much influential of the Shah
that the Shaw would not allow anything untoward to happen to the Americans. So these kids could just disrespect and so forth. And they cried. They explained there was some guy there with one eye, and he told a story about how he lost his sight.
The brutality of the Shah. Now, we had some general knowledge of this, but this was like detailing. Now, on the image and indoctrination thing, because many people in the United States were assuming that if you guys could get in there and see the hostages, you must be
a little bit biased toward these folks. You know, that was going around. And so what we decided, because we got some word that the Ayatollah was going to invite us for a conversation. And we had seen these conversations on the television. He's telling them things, and you're sitting there quietly. We did not want to be in that situation. So we literally planned our exit from the country
in some forethought that this may transpire. So we were successful. And I'm sure he maybe would have used it for propaganda purposes. Oh, yes. It would have been on American television before...
You could imagine. So speaking of American television, when you came back, obviously there was quite a lot of press coverage, quite infamously in our family memories. You appeared on the Donahue show. What are your memories of that in terms of what the reception was when you came back? It was virtually every major outlet. One thing I would say, especially the live shows, is how uninformed the people in those audiences were about television.
the history of Iran. I'm tired of seeing my flag burned. I'm tired of hearing these people kill President Carter. I'm not saying to go in and militarily take them over.
But I think that you better understand that we are tired of everywhere in this world that people that we have helped turning around and allowing them to destroy our flag, our self-image, and I for one am tired of it. Oh, wow. I mean, the people were angry, they were uninformed, and when you put those two combinations together, man, that's a pretty dangerous combination.
I wonder, when you reflect back on this, what do you think about what took place? And did this experience in any way change your perspective on the holiday of Christmas? I'm from the school of religious thought that doubts whether the average worshipper has fully understood the tradition that they claim.
I think in this period of 2023, we are seeing, for example, how devoid certain sectors of the American religious community is of basic Christian principles and ethics, how they behave in politics, and so forth. I knew deeply the religious significance of Christmas, of course,
But I knew that Christmas had evolved into, and it still is, an overwhelmingly commercial enterprise. It's about giving gifts. So I understood that. But what I did understand in this experience was what it meant for the first time, really. And you know very well that I grew up in the Jim Crow South, where there were many instances where
of not necessarily knowing how much control you really had in your life because of external forces, meaning segregationist and so on. It was in the Iranian hostage crisis that I understood how alone we are and how powerless we are when other people take control.
And really, it's in that setting that one can develop faith. If you think you have other options, you often don't turn to faith. When you have no other options, you turn to faith. That's M. William Howard Jr., the former president of the National Council of Churches. He went on to be active in the anti-apartheid movement and was president of the New York Theological Seminary.
Reverend Howard was interviewed by his son, Adam Howard, who's a senior producer of our program. That's The New Yorker Radio Hour for today. Thanks for listening. See you next time. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC Studios and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbess of Tune Arts, with additional music by Louis Mitchell.
This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard, Kal Aliyah, David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, and Louis Mitchell, with guidance from Emily Botin and assistance from Michael May, David Gable, and Alejandra Decke. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Cherena Endowment Fund. My name is Madeline Barron. I'm a journalist for The New Yorker. I...
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