The Roman Gladiator
01:02:23 Share

Thanks for listening to The Ancients. You can get all History Hit podcasts ad-free, early access and bonus episodes, along with hundreds of original history documentaries by subscribing. Head over to historyhit.com slash subscribe. This podcast is brought to you by eHarmony, the dating app to find someone you can be yourself with. Why doesn't eHarmony allow copy and paste in first messages? Because you are unique and your conversations should reflect that.

eHarmony wants you to find someone who will get you. How are you going to know who gets you? If people send you the same generic conversation starters, they message everyone else. Conversations that actually help you get to know each other. Imagine that. Get who gets you on eHarmony. Sign up today.

Hi, Tristan here and I have an exciting announcement. The Ancients has been invited to open the London Podcast Festival. We will be recording our very first live show on Thursday the 5th of September at 7pm at King's Place and being the first live show where we want it to be extra special, so I've invited a friend of the podcast, Professor Lloyd Llewellyn-Jones, to join me on stage where we will be diving into the captivating story of the Tower of Babel.

from its first mention in the book of Genesis to the real-life great ancient Babylonian structure that it was based on. Of course, the ancients is nothing without you, so we want you to be there in the audience taking part and asking us your burning questions.

Tickets for the festival always sell fast, so book yourself a seat now at www.kingsplace.co.uk forward slash whatson or click the link in the show notes of this episode. I really hope to see you there. The Gladiators

These ferocious professional fighters who fought in great arenas all across the Roman Empire for the pleasure of the crowd. They were celebrities of their day, they were sex symbols, and yet they also ranked amongst the lowest in Roman society. Today, the gladiator, through our continuing fascination with its horrific blood sports, is one of the great symbols of ancient Rome. But who exactly were these gladiators? What do we know about them?

It's the Ancients on History Hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and in today's episode, well, it's an everything you needed to know about the gladiator. We're going to explore the complete story of these Roman professional fighters, from origins to lifestyle to training, to how likely it really was for a gladiator to die in an arena like the Colosseum.

Now our guest is the brilliant gladiator expert and historical consultant Alexander Mariotti, whose knowledge on gladiators is quite simply mind-blowing. We recorded this episode in person in London a few months ago, and we are also both massive fans of the movie Gladiator, so we had a lot of fun recording this. Alex even brought in a prop from that timeless movie. Anyway, on with the episode. I really do hope you enjoy it.

Alex, it is wonderful to have you on the podcast today. Tristan, it's remarkable to be here. Thank you so much. You're very welcome. We've already had quite a bit of chat about your experiences in the TV world with great films and TV series in ancient Rome. It must be such an experience to see these movies, these ideas come to life. And with so many of them, the gladiator is right at the center because it's become so iconic of Roman culture. Yeah.

Absolutely. I would say I'm a bit of an anomaly in the field because I traverse different fields of work which people normally don't. So I love working in film.

Just because by complete accident, I ended up working on a couple of films and TV shows. And what I realized was that I was really spoiled with imagery, that I visibly got to see and experience ancient Rome built as a set, people in costume. And it gave me this very strange, almost physical memory. You know, we spend a lot of time reading. We formulate in our minds images, but to actually see them really brought it to life. For example, I worked on a show with Nigel Benn and Chris Eubank.

And they fought as gladiators. Now, the premise of the show, of course, is completely cheesy, but in truth, there was a certain moment because we filmed it at the theater in Austria and watching these two prime athletes actually go with grudges and history behind them and fight in armor was the closest thing I've ever seen to real gladiatorial combat. And it was, I mean, it was tremendous because it was brutal. It was physical, it was vicious, but it also was for show.

They were great showmen. That was a great part of it. And they'd spent a career doing it. So these experiences really have gifted me so much. I mean, that's what I was going to say, because also, and you've actually just highlighted there, it's all about the spectacle, the performance. These are performers today reenacting one of those great, albeit very deadly, performances of ancient Roman history. Oh, absolutely. I mean, that's the thing. It was a spectacle. It was a show of the eyes.

We forget that visually it had to blow you away, especially when you're considering that in antiquity, Roman society was based on war, on brutality, on violence. People saw things on the front that if you came to the amphitheater and saw a lame fight, you know it's a lame fight. So you really had to

take it a higher notch to impress people even more in the arena. And especially with the Eubank and Nigel Benn thing, what was interesting was they really went for it. What would happen if you took two prime boxers, heavyweight boxers, gave them armor and made them fight in the arena? You know what? We're going to be exploring more of that later on in the episode. More, and especially like when they enter the arena as well, that kind of special thing. Yes, yes. But we'll get to that in time because...

All of that, let's address the props in the room that we've got at the moment. I'm wearing this shirt and I've got a Roman face mask on it. Shout out in the comments if anyone knows what the face mask is. Absolutely. Not quite gladiator related. However, your little pin there with a mask, that is more gladiator related. Well, I feel we've already set up a fight between us because here you've got the helmet and the cavalry mask there. But the cavalry mask is what they use in gladiator for the tiger's helmet. Of course.

Because he's got a mask over his face. And I've got the pin of the Spaniard of Russell Crowe, Maximus. So we already have a Tigris-Maximus fight going on here. Well, we'll keep it going just for the chat. And of course, you've also brought in this replica sword in front of us. Now, I'll take it away. What exactly is this? So this is a stunt cavalry sword from the film Gladiator.

It's all in one piece of rubber. So if you see somebody walking around London with a gladiator and they look like me, don't be alarmed. But I have the largest collection of items in the world from films such as Gladiator, series like Spartacus, anything to do with Rome. And I often like to put an exhibition because, you know, the interesting thing is that your average person has seen Gladiator, but they've not read Marshall.

So, you know, I think there's always a little bit of a problem in the academic world is that people don't realize that majoritably shows, films, documentaries are aimed at people who aren't into history or they should be. They're usually not, but they should be because those are the people you want to get interested and fascinated into it. And if someone watches a show or sees a prop and says, I want to know more, that's, that's the job done. That's the job done. Okay. Well, let's put that back on the table. And that's,

That leads me nicely into my next question, because you mentioned there the word marshaled. So coming to the topic of the Roman gladiator, what types of sources do experts like yourself have to go on to learn more about the life of a gladiator? Well, from a literary point of view, there really isn't that much. That's the interesting thing. We have little bits and pieces. Marshal, of course, is...

in "De Spectaculus" talks about the games of the Colosseum. - And he's a Roman poet, isn't he? - He's a Roman poet, yes. And he gives us a little glimpse of someone who sat in the arena and watched the opening games of the Colosseum. I mean, how fantastic is that? But, you know, we tend to find more from archeological evidence, from places like Pompeii, for example, which I was just at recently. Modern forensics has helped us greatly because we find cemeteries of gladiators. And from there, we work out who they were physically,

how they were kept, but also it tells us a great secret about gladiators, which I think is no longer a great secret, but it's kind of coming out, which is that they didn't die. And most of all, they aren't what we believe gladiators to be. That's so interesting.

No such thing as a silly question. We've said the word gladiator a lot, but what exactly was a gladiator? Because many of us will have an idea of a gladiator, but many of those ideas will be wrong. Well, it seems like an easy question, but it's a very enigmatic question because gladiators are, in my opinion, the most enigmatic figures of history. They're very complex, as we all are. You know, humankind is complex and gladiators are a great mirror of that. They're a very complex figure. Now, if you ask somebody in modern terms what's a gladiator,

formulated from films predominantly. It's a poor slave thrown into the arena, given weapons and told to fight to the death brutally for these terrible Romans who ate and drank while blood was gushing. But that's the movies and the truth is far different. I would say that gladiators are, first of all, the first modern sports stars of history, without a doubt. Secondly, I would say that gladiators are the ultimate underdog. They kind of represent the

The poorest of the poor. They were people who came from nothing but reached the pinnacle of stardom. I mean, think how incredible that somebody with absolutely nothing, born in abject poverty, gets to stand before the emperor of Rome, 80,000 people, and have them cheering their name and make money from it. So they kind of represent, you know, the person they're back against the wall who fights their way out and who can't be inspired by that.

But the third and the most important is that they are the literal physical embodiment of Virtus. And Virtus is to the Romans what Bushido was to the samurai. It is the philosophy that governs them. Without Virtus, there's no Roman Empire. There's no Julius Caesar. It is the philosophy of excellence, of skill and physical and mental agility. And the gladiators literally represented it. Well, if a gladiator...

can gain all of this at the height of the Roman Empire. What about the beginnings? Do we know much about the origins of the gladiator? Absolutely. Well, so some people like to start round about the time of the Etruscans or the Companions. So you're talking about fourth century BC. I like to go further. I think that first of all, this idea of human sacrifice, because the thing about gladiators is that there's no one long story.

simple trajectory as to their history. They are the culmination of many moments and many great individuals that sort of made the sport. I mean, if you ask people, how did football start or rugby? This kind of an idea, right? Even football, which is so popular, some people say, well, it was made here and some people that some people say the Aztecs did it. Gladiatorial combat is very much the same. This idea of human sacrifice, which is the origins, origins of gladiators goes back all the way. I mean,

I think as long as monarchies have existed, this idea of sacrificing people at funerals or in death has been present. I mean, we know in the, you know, the first dynasty in Egypt, they're already sacrificing. They've got servants being sacrificed so the fair can take them with them.

But in the story of gladiators, because you've got a little bit of sacrifice or human sacrifice, but you've got a little bit of sport, I'd go as far back as the Iliad. I mean, the Iliad is the first literary example of a sports event. And it happens in book 23 when Patroclus dies and his funeral is given by Achilles.

And Achilles puts on this wonderful spectacle. He puts on a show to honor Patroclus, to honor the dead. And there's boxing matches, there's wrestling, there's men fighting with weapons. And in fact, Homer has Achilles say, Patroclus, even in Hades, I've kept my promise. 12 brave Trojans shall join you on the pyre. So you have the fighting, you have this great show of martial skill to honor the dead, but you also have the sacrificing of people

to accompany the dead. So that's really the start. And of course, as we know, the Greeks and the Romans are symbiotic. So the more Greek influence came into Rome, the more Hellenization of Rome occurred, the more this diffused. Now, we have two sources. Nicholas of Damascus says the Etruscans gave the Romans gladiatorial combat. But Livy and Silius say the Companions did.

Now, the Etruscan side for me doesn't work. There's no archaeological evidence. Even if the word lanista is supposed to be originally an Etruscan word, the archaeological evidence points to the fact that the earliest examples in Italy of images of gladiatorial combat come from Paestum and Capua from the 4th century BC, and you have these wonderful painted tombs of men fighting. Beautiful. But then...

you've also got the companions being the epicenter of gladiatorial combat. So in my opinion, it's definitely the south of Italy because the south of Italy is conquered by the Greeks. They founded colonies such as Neapolis, Naples, Pompeii, Syracuse. So there's that influence creeping of the Greeks and culturally the Romans start bringing little pieces in. In 309 BC, the companions defeat the Samnites. The Samnites are...

a hill tribe of people that the Romans have several battles with. But the way they actually dressed or they fought, and you can go to the British Museum and actually see some beautiful Samnite armor, very ornate armor. Once they're defeated, the companions have the prisoners of war fight to the death to honor their fallen brothers. But if you think logistically, now what you've got is you've got a huge amount of beautiful ornate armor. So the first...

gladiators or figures that we can say are gladiators are dressed as some nights ah so these great enemies the great enemies because you've kind of got a double thing here you've got first of all a way to dispel of prisoners of war okay they're fighting men you can't do anything with them you kill them you're honoring the dead and because the Romans are very pragmatic and very business orientated you've got a whole bunch of beautiful armor what are you going to do with it so

It becomes sort of custom to adapt this. And in Rome, the first example we have of this is 264 BC. And that is two guys, Marcus and Junius Brutus, who honor their father, Decimus Junius Brutus Pera. And by the way, this is one of the wealthiest families in Rome because Lucius Junius Brutus,

is the guy who kicks out the last king of Rome in 509 BC. First consul of Rome. So we're talking one of the wealthiest, most important families. And they put on a spectacle, a munera, which means obligation for their father to honor his death. And the way they do so is they have three pairs of gladiators fighting. But they're not gladiators, they're bustiari. Busta means the pyre. So they're the men of the funeral pyre.

But that, I think, in italic terms, is the first seed of what's going to become gladiatorial combat and the spectacle that we'll see in the Colosseum. Because you mentioned seeds, because at that time, during the Roman Republic, so you mentioned Brutus in 509 BC, and the Republic lasts all the way down to Octavian and Actium, so Mark Antony, so some 500 years later. In that time, during the Roman Republic...

is it very much when they start embracing these early gladiators from Campania following the Samnite Wars that they are used very much in the context of elite families overseeing the spectacle, but they are used...

Well, for funerary context. Yeah, yeah. And by the way, there's no indication that it's a fight to the death. See, the thing is the Romans' belief was that the dead were shadows. They were sort of men stripped of anything physical. They were just, shadows is a perfect analogy. But the blood of a man, which is the life force, could be fed to the shadow and give them sort of a temporary strength to pass through to the underworld. Right.

The thing is that these shows were intended originally in the Greek tradition to be a way to honor the dead. But I think something happened, which is that people witnessed it because the most important part of it was the feast. Because you put on a feast afterwards and you gave people food and wine and all thanks to this great benefactor so that in Roman terms, religiously, as long as you were remembered, as long as you were spoken of, you existed still.

You were still there. And so it was a way to have people say, "Oh, that Decimus Junior's Brutus Perio, what a great guy. Remember the feast we went to and so on." But I think what's happened there is that it's tapped into something primal. I think people have watched the show and it's triggered something. And what's happened is that you've got some very stupid politicians, some very ambitious people of which the Roman Republic is consisted of that have looked at this and said, "This is something good."

Do we know much about how...

these early gladiators, how the sport almost evolves over those next centuries as the Republic progresses. And we get to, let's say, figures like Julius Caesar. And just before we reach that almost kind of golden age of gladiators with the emperors and so on. Well, so there's a sort of a key moment. So 264 BC, you've got the first one. You've got three pairs, right? 50 years later, you've got 20 pairs. Now, when you get to 174 BC, great general Quincitius, he passes away.

and he leaves in his will money for a great show. He has 74 pairs of gladiators fighting. But, and here's the button, he makes sure it's not held at the time of his funeral. He actually has his family wait and they hold it in December, in the Saturnalia, because they know that people are going to be on holiday so they're going to see the show.

So now all of a sudden it's like, well, wait a second. Is it for his funeral to honor the dead or is it to honor his memory? And it makes a real change because first of all, they started dressing differently. The Romans were not so keen on nudity like the Greeks were. In fact, I think Greek athletics really didn't catch on very much because the Romans weren't so keen on the nudity. So these guys fought in their underwear.

which is called the subligaculum. It's about a four-foot piece of linen, triangle linen. It's basically underpants, which is what gladiators, by the way, will continuously fight from 174 till the end of gladiatorial combat. And this is really a key moment because the show gets bigger. And so you start getting people trying to compete with each other.

And by the time you get to somebody like Caesar, because Caesar is fundamental to the story of gladiatorial combat. In fact, I don't know why he's not really mentioned as much as he should be because Caesar is a genius of marketing. He's the greatest marketer of antiquity. And he knew and caught onto something that was key. People love the violence. They love the game. They love the show. They love this virtues. And he used it to his full extent. And it really was a big part of his success, by the way.

Not often spoken about, but it really was. Well, let's speak about it. How does he use gladiators? How does he very much evolve the story of the gladiators? Why is he such a significant figure? So just a little bit before him, we have the first...

non funeral related show. So it's not like Caesar invented this idea. A chap called Publius Rutilius Rufus puts on the first non gladiatorial show that's linked to a funeral monument. Him and another chap, which I think is the greatest name in antiquity, Manlius Maximus. Wow. It's a great name. You can only hope to be named Manlius Maximus. So they put on a show

but it's nothing to do the funeral. It's just pure entertainment because they've already caught on to that. They've seen that. And by the way, just to show you how well gladiators were trained, he actually uses the training system of the gladiators for his army. And it's so successful that Marius,

Caesar's great uncle, actually chooses his army to fight against the Cimbri because they're so well-trained. So already by 75 BC, gladiators are no longer poor slaves and not servants. They really are peak athletes already. And Caesar catches onto this trend

And in 65 BC, he puts on a munis. So he honors his father. By the way, his father died in 85. He died 20 years before. Doesn't matter. He puts it on. And by the way, Caesar owns his own family of gladiators down in Capua, same place that Spartacus breaks out of. The Giuliani. So he has his own troop of gladiators. Very astute, because guess what? You've had 75 pairs. Caesar's going to have

2000 maybe? Because the looters would hold about 2000 men. So he's got all of that ready. He's already preparing himself. So he becomes a dial, puts on the Monero first father. He's got everything ready, except his political opponents go, not a chance. And they panic and they quickly pass a law that 320 pairs is the maximum you can have. And so he only puts 320 pairs on, but don't worry because years afterwards, when he celebrates his triumph, he's going to put on thousands like he promised.

i had no idea julius caesar was so important in the story of gladiators because i associate them with the time of emperors and that as it's zenith but

Once again, with so many different aspects of ancient Roman history, you can always include Caesar in the story. I had no idea. And not only, by the way, he's actually fundamental to the games because... So there's no permanent fixture in Rome for gladiatorial comment until 29 BC, so time of Augustus. A chap called Statilius Taurus, one of his commanders, builds this half-wooden, half-stone amphitheater.

So in Caesar's time, they did pretty much what we do in modern concerts. You put up a wooden set of stands, or you put up a temporary stand, then you take it back down again. But he builds one, and his is unique because it's, first of all, on a race platform. He's got tunnels and trapdoors and lifts underneath it. Now, bear in mind, by the way, the Munis was in 65, and he puts on the games in 46 BC for his quadruple triumph. And he builds this incredible idea for...

before the Colosseum is even concepted. And he has a velarium, so he's got the awnings on the top, which are already present in Pompeii, but he's got awnings, lifts, trapdoors, race platforms. So he's got at certain points gladiators popping in and out, lines coming out of nowhere. It's genius because then when they build the Colosseum, initially they didn't even have that technology, and then they built it afterwards. So again, he's such a great showman, he's such a great marketer,

that he uses the games to his advantage. So as you say, the most successful marketing man, PR man of Roman history. And it's the same with gladiators. I absolutely love that. I wish we could talk more about gladiators in the Republic, but we've talked about the origins and evolution. Let's get then maybe a few decades later in the time of the emperors, Augustus and so on, first century AD onwards.

As we get to that time and gladiators as a sport, this blood sport becomes more established in these arenas and so on. First questions first, whereabouts in social hierarchy and the social standing did a gladiator sit? It's the interesting thing about gladiators is that despite their fame, their sometimes fortune, they were regarded as the infamous, the infami, the worst of the worst in society. Pimps, undertakers, you know,

sometimes actors, they were regarded really very poorly in society. But, you know, I don't think we have a very different view of sports people today. I mean, we have an admiration for sportsmen, but if Mike Tyson would run for president, you'd probably think that was quite sort of humorous. You wouldn't take him seriously, would you? So I think we have the same sort of view of athletes. They're physical. They're not intellectual.

And they were regarded as such. They were regarded, but incredibly, they also formed part oftentimes of the imperial court. They were favored by them. The emperors wanted to be them. Caligula fought as a Thracian, Commodus as a secutor. Think for a second that the most powerful, wealthiest god on earth living at that time, a man who commanded over 60 million people, wanted to be the infamous, the slave in the arena, the supposed slave.

in the arena. What does that tell you? I think that Commodus, for example, who ended up being the top of the food chain, wanted to be that guy, tells you a lot about that guy. That one man in the army, in the middle of the arena, commanded the attention, the love, the admiration of many, and that was intoxicating. And I think that's what's interesting about the arena is that it turns everything upside down from a hierarchy point of view. Even the emperor wants to be that guy in the middle.

And so if you look in from a society point of view, yes, the gladiator is at the bottom, but when you go to the Coliseum, you flip that round because the guy at the bottom is the guy who's getting everyone's attention and everybody loves and everybody wants to be. They are the celebrity. I mean, with that whole image in mind,

Were there many freeborn Romans? I mean, do we know who they are? They sacrificed their status, their standing to become a gladiator. Yeah, it's a surprising thing because whenever I talk about gladiators, people say, who'd want to be a gladiator? And my response is, who wouldn't?

You know, don't tell me that in a time when life was short and brutal, a time of abject poverty, that you wouldn't take the chance to walk in there. First of all, you get a signing fee of 2,000 sesterces. And just to put that in context, an average soldier is making about 900 a year. Your average Roman is living on about 200 sesterces. So already you're making to your salary in signing up.

Why wouldn't you do that? But it's the possibility of fame, of admiration, and financially. You know, we live in a golden age where we forget that this plentifulness that we have, this ability to make money, is not the rule. It's an exception. We're very lucky to live in this period of history because most of human history is abject poverty. And if you are of a certain economic class, you're never going to get out of it. Back then...

to walk through that gate in the arena gave you the possibility of changing who you were. You could be poor, you could have nothing, but you could walk in there and not only become famous and loved and adored as much as the emperor of Rome,

but also as wealthy as any of the politicians. Maybe not on the fame part, but it also sounds quite similar to the Roman army that kind of gave you an option to get out of the life that you were born into. Precisely, precisely. I mean, that's what Caesar's uncle Marius was so good at was that he transformed society because the capitis sensi, the poor who were basically counted by the head, had nothing. And that was also part of the games was that you had to placate people because they didn't have anything. So it's a good way to control society was to put on the games to distract them. You know, everybody knows...

the very famous phrase that Nero says, that people just need pan and chichensum, just games and bread. But it's actually echoed by Fronto, who says that the Roman public's only obsessed with two things, and that's spectacles and the grain supply. In fact, he says Trajan's rule was very successful because of serious things, but also of spectacle. He says the people mourn serious things with great loss.

but they mourn the loss of spectacles with great resentment. There you go. Love those little quotes. I want to kind of keep on that a bit longer because...

with who could and would choose to become a gladiator. We must also mention, mustn't we, that although there were freeborn Romans who did decide to sacrifice their status and become a gladiator, were there also those who didn't have a choice? Absolutely. But, you know, there's a great, I think, confusion with the life of a gladiator, with gladiatorial combat in general, which is that we tend to mix a lot of things together. There were a lot of people that were condemned to death to fight to death. They're not gladiators.

Not by any means. They were called Noxai. Noxai were prisoners of war often. They were condemned criminals. So if you equate, for example, Caesar's Gallic Wars, all right? He's brought back a plethora of fighting men. You can't do anything about them. They are the enemies of Rome. They must serve a purpose. You have them fight to the death. They're basically suppositus. They're put in and the survivor stays on. The winner technically stays on, right? That isn't gladiatorial combat, right?

I think there's a great confusion with gladiators because the term gets used a lot. But when I talk about gladiators, I talk about professional athletes. I'm talking about the real professional athlete gladiator, which was the ones who were incredibly well-trained, taken care of. Slaves were bought. Of course they were. I mean, you know, the Ludus had a talent scout. The schools, the gladiator schools had talent scouts who would go around and say, but, you know, you'd be maybe in a salt mine somewhere. You'd see a guy with the physical attributes,

Because that was the thing, you weren't just picking anybody off. To be a gladiator, you had to be the physical exception. And buy that guy and then try and sell him to the looters. So of course. And why would a slave do that? Because you can win not just money, you'll be paid, but you're also given three square meals a day, clothing, shelter, and the ability to win your freedom and become rich. Why would you not take it?

Hey folks, since you're a fan of history, you clearly want to understand how we've ended up with the world that we have. Well, I'd like to tell you about my show. It's called Dan Snow's History Hit. And on that show, you get a daily dose of history and the stories that really explain just about everything that's ever happened. If you want to know the origin stories of the cities we inhabit, what's in our kitchen cupboards, why we've always been drawn to dictators, the deep history that explains what's going on, for example, in the Middle East, well, we've got you covered.

And if you'd rather be regaled with dramatic tales of powerful empires, we do that too. Get a little bit smarter every day with Dan Snow's History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts.

This season, Instacart has your back to school. As in, they've got your back to school lunch favorites like snack packs and fresh fruit. And they've got your back to school supplies like backpacks, binders, and pencils. And they've got your back when your kid casually tells you they have a huge school project due tomorrow. Let's face it, we were all that kid.

So first, call your parents to say I'm sorry and then download the Instacart app to get delivery in as fast as 30 minutes all school year long.

Get a $0 delivery fee with your first three orders while supplies last. Minimum $10 in order. Additional terms apply. Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. Recently, I asked Mint Mobile's legal team if big wireless companies are allowed to raise prices due to inflation. They said yes. And then when I asked if raising prices technically violates those onerous two-year contracts, they said, what the f***?

So to recap, we're cutting the price of Mint Unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Well, let's kind of move on then. Let's say you have signed up to become a gladiator if you're a freeborn or you've been made into a gladiator. You've stood out to this talent manager in a salt mine or wherever as a slave. And you've been made into a gladiator.

What was the next steps? Where would you be taken once you'd been selected or you'd signed up to become a gladiator? So the first thing is you'd be taken to the Ludus, the school, and you'd be introduced to your doctore, which was your trainer. The doctore would look at you physically, inspect you, and sort of decide from there, from your physiognomy, as to what kind of a gladiator you would be and what kind of training you'd receive. And by the way, of course,

where do the Romans get this great sense of training from? They get it from the Greeks. Because in 776, we've got BC, we've got the Olympics, and you've got a very competitive environment. So a lot of Greek physicians started creating training programs for the athletes. In fact, if you read them, they're fascinating because they sound a lot like the modern stuff we think we're doing and find out that what we think is modern is far from it. So

The Greek athletes were also chosen from their physiognomy. So the trainer would look at them and say, okay, same things apply to gladiators. So you're given an idea of what kind of gladiator you can be. You know, are you tall, slender? Are you good looking? You'd make a great retiarius because he doesn't have a helmet. So they pick the best looking ones to be gladiators.

The ugly ones get the big helmets. The ugly ones get the big helmets. The ugly, big brutish guys get the big helmets. And of course, we do know that physical attributes are a big thing because we find this wonderful graffiti in Pompeii. Calatus the Thracian, Suspirium Poliarum, the heartthrob of the ladies, Crescens, the nocturnum puparium, the nighttime netter of the ladies. So

sexuality is a huge part of it. And they are. They're the most sexually desired figures of the Roman Empire, more than the emperors. So your training would involve you striking a thing called a palace. We don't have a lot written about gladiatorial combat training, but we have a lot from Vegetius about training of the military. But what we also know is that from 105 BC, probably even more because Shippey Africanus in 210 BC is already using...

what becomes gladiatorial training for his soldiers. So we know that the training of the army and gladiatorial training are symbiotic. So, Vegetius tells us how they train. They have wicker shields, they have wooden swords, and they strike against a palace, which is a pole, basically a trunk of a tree. And they're taught moves much like you would teach martial arts. You were taught certain katas. So, you know, how to attack, how to defend,

But along with that, there's actually physical training. There's like cardio, what we'd call cardio. The system they used will have been a system called the tetrad. And we have a Greek writer called Philostratus who talks a lot about the tetrad system. It's a four-day training system. The first day you have some intense preparatory workouts. So maybe sprints, you know, you're preparing yourself. The second is what he calls an inescapable test system.

of one's strength and so you give everything you've got. The third day you rest and the fourth day you go on to skills. It's a brilliant training system because if you've got 2,000 men, how many one-on-one trainers do you think you have? You don't have 2,000 doctores. So you've probably got a handful of them. You need to be able to mass train people and then specialize with their skills.

And with this specialization, I've got to ask, why? Why do the Romans decide to create all these different classes of gladiators, that they don't fight each other in similar styles? That one person is decided to be a light-armed net man and another is more heavier-armed, and then someone else has got a spear, maybe someone else might have a bow and arrow, I don't know. Why do they have all these different classes? Well, originally it's because they, again, it starts with the Samnites, it starts with the enemies of Rome. So the first kind of gladiators or classification of gladiators you've got is the Samnite,

You've got the Gallus, you know, the Gauls were the boogeyman to the Romans. You know, ever since they sacked Rome in 309 BC, they really were the sort of terrifying figure. 390. 390, I beg your pardon. And Caesar, of course, has the Gallic Wars in the 50s BC. So the conquest of Gaul brought back a lot of Gallic armor, a lot of prisoners of war. So initially it's the enemies of Rome. And, you know, as a symbol, what a great symbol where you've got a society showing that the enemies...

that fight against you will meet this doom. The violence of the arena was a warning to those who watched that if you didn't live lawfully in your everyday life, there were consequences. And keeping society as a whole together is a very tough thing. Imagine in antiquity. But it also was the Romans showing the superiority that civilization, Roman civilization was top. Because outside of the arena, outside of Rome, you had these three terrifying things. You had the beasts,

You had nature, which we forget was a terrifying thing because we don't really live with the threat of nature. You had the threat of the unknown, of the foreigner, of the barbarians, the uncultured. But you also had chaos.

Rome was order, was strength, was light. Rome is the light. Rome is the light. That's what I was trying to build towards. It was the light in many ways. And it was because, you know, if you look back, where would we want to live if anywhere in antiquity, if not ancient Rome, it's the closest thing where we can see a style of life and think, yeah, I could probably fit in there. Well, let's go on from that a bit. So

They've been assigned their particular class. They're doing all the training, this daily life of a gladiator in the Ludus. That's where you're eating, that's where you're sleeping, that's where you're training every day. I've also got to ask about the equipment a bit more because were the arms and the armor for these particular classes, were they designed to be very ceremonial, quite showy, quite blingy and exotic rather than

being designed to be really effective pieces of equipment, let's say, in a natural battle. Absolutely. Sorry, I know I tend to go on tangents because I've got so much. I know, it's great. It's a subject I love talking about and I'm passionate about it. And I go on tangents. So keep me on, hold the line. I think that's going to be our thing is get as many gladiator quotes secretly in and see if anyone picks up on it. So yes, hold the line if I'm going off on tangents. So initially, gladiatorial combat is about showing the enemies of Rome.

Because, you know, again, from a standpoint of equipment, you're defeating huge armies. You've got a lot of equipment. Easy done. But what happens is then it becomes a show. It becomes...

a spectacle. And so the armor becomes ornate and changes. I mean, for the Roman men, it was also a way to see how people fought on the fronts. You know, you got to see these very exotic armors. You got to see exotic weapons that were very different from the Romans. And you got to see the techniques that were used on the front. So in a way, it was to immerse those who had not been on the front, who'd been in the wars as to what it was like. In fact, you know, sometimes they would put on pitch battles to represent wars. But as it became a show,

The armor, I think, really reflects it. It becomes, first of all, Augustus adds masks because Caesar's important, but so is Augustus. Augustus does a lot for gladiatorial combat. He, first of all, monopolizes the Ludus. It becomes state-run. So, sorry, all the private sector, it's finished. It's all state-run. He puts masks in them. I think it's very clever because gladiators aren't people.

And we don't talk about them as people, we talk about them as gods. Because they do superhuman things. First of all, they have the aspect of titans, these incredible, shiny, beautiful, ornate helmets. They have physiques we don't have, they have physical attributes we don't have. But they also do things that we can't. They fight, they fight with valor, they continuously stare at death and they laugh at it. What bravery.

and yet they are the lowest of the low. Yeah it's that weird kind of, get more into that weird kind of contrast. So I said they're the most complex thing because we are you know, man is complex and I think gladiators are so complex themselves they represent us perfectly.

Well, let's say you've been in gladiator school for a bit of time for that training. About two years. It's about two years. And I'm guessing you don't really get to spend much time outside of the Ludus. That's not necessarily true. I think, you know, so first of all, gladiators had families and wives. We know this because a lot of the evidence we get is from funerary inscriptions, tombstones. They tell us the life of the gladiators.

way more than literary evidence does, you know, from the sources. So they've got families, they've got wives. It's a bit odd for people who are thrown into arenas told to fight to the death. But a lot of

gladiators who signed up will have stayed at home and then come to train and then leave. The sort of confining gladiators really from a standpoint of security from the emperor's point of view was you've got some very dangerous men who are mercenaries. They're fighting for money. Let's not beat around the bush. That's quite dangerous for an emperor's safety because who knows, somebody might get the idea to hire them. And people do. Not often talked about, but Pope Damascus I said,

in 336 AD, hires gladiators because his rival decided that he didn't like the way the papal election went. Pope Damascus had been elected pope. So he ran to the church and had himself crowned a pope. And so Pope Damascus went down to the local Ludus, Ludus Magnus, next to the Colosseum, hired a whole bunch of gladiators, killed 137 people, kicks his opponent out, and, hey, so became pope.

Fair enough. So it was a very dangerous thing to have armed men in the city, which is of course why Augustus decides that gladiatorial combat, the industry, should be state-run, shouldn't be privatized.

Well, thank you for clarifying that because in my mind, I did think that they just lived and kind of slept in gladiator quarters all the time. I was thinking, my mind immediately goes to Pompeii and the reused part of the theater that became the new gladiator barracks. And you see all those kind of look like dormant trees around the outside. But as you say, there's more to that than meets the eye, which is so interesting. Well, remember that Pompeii,

is just the, it's the year before the Coliseum opens. So as the Coliseum opens, well, suddenly you've got a bigger stage. I mean, that's when it hits the big time. That's when it really becomes a show. You know, we're talking about a sport that lasted 700 years. Think of any sport, how much it progresses. Think of like wrestling, American wrestling. I always think it's a good example. What was American wrestling in the 50s? And look at it now. Would you really compare these two sports and think they're the same?

We don't apply that to gladiatorial combat. The same with MMA. I mean, if you look at MMA, the fastest growing sport in the world,

For those who think that we are so different from the Romans, that the biggest sport in the world right now is two men who enter into an arena and fight for the pleasure of a baying crowd. Are we so different from the Romans? I absolutely want to get onto those similarities. Oh, yes. Even darts a bit kind of today as well with the spectacle of it. I think all modern sports have a sense of gladiatorial combat. American football. But yes, there are great parallels there. Well, I'd like to ask, so if you're one of these training gladiators and you've done your two years of training, how...

How soon would it be? I know it must differ, as you've highlighted there. It's not all the same for everyone. But do we know roughly how long it would be before they would go into the arena and actually fight someone? So again, this changes in periods and it changes according to demand. You know, there's certain moments of history, like if you take the rule of Antoninus Pius, it's a very peaceful rule. So it's a big problem. Not a lot of prisoners of war coming in.

So there's a great demand for games and a greater demand for gladiators. It really was a huge business, which Marcus Aurelius, the great Marcus Aurelius, ruined.

because he makes a series of decrees with his son Commodus in 176 AD and he ruins it because he sets limits on how much you can spend on a show. So you can under 30,000 sesterces or all the way up to 200,000 sesterces but he then limits how much you can pay for gladiators. So you start from about 1,500 sesterces all the way up to 150,000.

But he killed the business. So Lannisters were not making the money they were anymore because of it. So that's really when things change because if you take the money out of the business, the business is going to start going down. A bit like the movie industry. We've talked about movies before. In my experience, you know, I've worked in film over 25 years. I've seen it change dramatically from the amount of money they were spending on films to the amount they do today. If you look at our old blockbusters, you know, the great...

50s and 60s, the Spartacuses and the Cleopatras, right? The movies, Ben-Hur. We don't make movies like that anymore because the money has gone out of the business in that way. So there's a great parallel with that in gladiatorial combat. So going back to where we were,

Let's say you've signed up, you've done your training and you're about to go to one of the arenas across the empire because these arenas, it's not just the Colosseum, although that's the big glitzy one. No, yeah, it's a full thing. Yeah, these schools, these arenas, the gladiators, they were all across the length and breadth of the empire. Well, look, if you're a footballer today, right? And you pass your prime, you can go play in Dubai. People love you. Miami, right? I don't want to mention any names. I don't want to offend people.

But, you know, you go to Pompeii. So before you put on a show, you would have a series of sort of graffiti artists in public places putting up the poster for the show. We have a poster in Pompeii that mentions, you know, there'll be beast hunters, there'll be gladiators, and there will be Fiamma. Oh, wow. God, Fiamma. I mean, you know, he won the Super Bowl of 8480s, a bit past his prime. That was about six years ago. But still, I'd go see Fiamma fight again, you know. You had a sort of...

a great career because the doctores, the trainers were retired gladiators. And once you were past your prime, once your contract was up, because you had contracts,

Then, and by the way, you don't only have contracts, you also have sponsorships. There's a great anecdote about the original Gladiator script in which Russell Crowe's character is supposed to walk into the Coliseum advertising olive oil. It's in the script, the original script. This show is sponsored by, yeah, this show is sponsored by. But Ridley Scott thought people wouldn't believe it because it was so ridiculous. But it's true. When you were in the arena, your Gladiator was sponsored, so you'd have the sponsorship of the Gladiator. So you're making money off the sponsorship. Yeah.

And so there's a great business of it. And then of course you could go once you retired around the different arenas. So the schools would travel and say, you know, we're going to play an away game. There you go in North Africa. Oh, wonderful. You know?

That is still incredible. I mean, with that contract and with the money, that economic investment in it, if you were under contract, would it kind of be agreed that the gladiator would get some of the money from the sponsorship, but the lanista, the owner, would get the lion's share of it? I mean, do we know much about that? I'm guessing it was kind of shared between the two. Yeah, well, again, I mean, during the empire, because it's all state-run, there's a procurator, the procurator Admoneribus. He's the highest paid official in the empire.

in the employment of the imperial court. So there's a lot of money in it. And he's running both the Ludus Magnus and the Matotinus, which is the morning school where they did the beast hunts, where they trained the beast hunters.

So there's a great deal of money. So yes, the Linista gets a profit of it. But again, before the empire and the times of the Republic, these guys were making a fortune, which is why it was lucrative and why people like Julius Caesar, even Nero afterwards, but Nero had his own gladiator school. But Julius Caesar, he has his own gladiator school because it's a great investment. It's a great story of a guy called Curio, a friend of Cicero in 52 BC. He wants to put on games and he's desperate.

And Cicero says, don't do it. But he does. He invests all his money. He builds this incredible wooden theater that can swivel.

So he's got them sort of back, if you imagine like two sets of seating back to back and they're watching different shows and then they're on wheels, they're moved around and then the gladiator show is put on. Of course, it's a huge thing and he gets elected to his whole career afterwards politically is wonderful because of that. And by the way, Caesar, when he puts on his monera in 65 BC, gets his money from Crassus, richest man in Rome.

So they're borrowing huge amounts. It's a huge risk. But if it pays off, you're set. The rewards are very much worth it, as you say, if it pays off. Let's go back to an arena in Imperial Rome. Yes. Let's say you're a gladiator and you're about to walk out for maybe your first match or maybe your first few matches. I did say we go back to WWE and MMA parallels. Yes.

But I want to ask about the entrances of these gladiators into the arena. Was there a lot of fanfare? Can we imagine announcers shouting, maybe even like some elevators and some of that? Was it really a spectacle just them entering the arena actually before they fought? So you imagine a day in the Coliseum was a full day. By the way, the reason there's so many pairs of gladiators is because if you look at any combat sport, some fights don't last that long. So you have to have like a full day's worth of entertainment.

The first thing is you've sat in the Coliseum, you're with your friends, the noise of the crowd. And I love the fact that, by the way, we're so like the Romans that we live in a period where stadiums of 80,000 people are a thing. If you go back 500 years ago, they're not. You know, stadiums of 80,000 people are a very relatively new thing, except when you look at history and realize the Romans were doing it way before us. So the noise of the crowd just was intoxicating. You're sitting there.

And imagine the sand of the arena and suddenly you hear a noise, a bit I would equate to maybe the shutters in an airport, you know, when the flights are changing. Trees start popping out of the ground and suddenly 20 odd trees just pop out of the ground and the arena is transformed into a jungle. So suddenly you, Roman, who will never leave Rome, never see any part, are in the Black Forest of Germany. Amazing. Then a panther comes out, a tiger,

and a hunter in the middle. And you're watching from an almost aerial view, a hunter hunting animals in the Colosseum in Rome. Music's playing. You've got a water organ, you've got a trumpet, you've got a cornice, the sort of long curved horn. So music's playing to the actual games. And then when the hunter kills the animals, the trees pop down in the ground, sand, and it's a halftime show.

After the halftime show, that's the bit we've been waiting for. The gladiators come. Just like MMA, just like any combat sport, you start with the lesser-known guys and you build up to the title fight because that's what we're there. You get the pomper. So music's playing and outcome is...

heralds holding the placard that tells you this guy, his name, how many fights he's won, how many he's lost, how many he's drawn. So you've got the stats. It's wonderful watching MMA because I think there's so many elements of gladiatorial combat. And here we have, you know, from Syria, Fiamma, the scourge, Ritiarius, 38 fights, 25 wins, nine stands misius, nine draws. That's true, by the way, we have a funerary inscription of this guy.

And out he comes, music's playing, the crowd goes wild. I mean, I think from both aspects, from a spectator's point of view, how intoxicating that these games that we witnessed today existed 2,000 years ago. But how intoxicating to be that gladiator that comes out in the parade, has thousands of people cheering from him,

And then every clash of your sword, every time your shield blocks a blow, everyone thinks you're finished. And at the last moment, you strike the gladiator and the referee comes down, he's knocked out and raises your hand and you're the winner and the crowd goes mad. I mean, again, who would not want to be a gladiator? Yeah, the chill is going down the spine, even though the danger is there. It's the adrenaline, isn't there? Oh, yeah, yeah. And interesting thing about the adrenaline. You know, when you watch MMA fights and they knock people out, right? The referee has to throw himself there.

You imagine if you put weapons into it. So the fact that there's referees, because there were, there were referees, the sumo-ruders and second-ruders, tells you, first of all, there was rules. This nonsense of people giving weapons and throwing to the arena is nonsense. There was set rules, but the training was important because...

combat, especially with weaponry, instigates fight or flight. And even combat veterans, it's hard to sort of fight the adrenaline. Now you imagine you've got the adrenaline pumping, you've got the noise, you're wearing a helmet, this noise is reverberating, the discomfort, and yet they had the ability to stop the

at the right moment and not kill their opponents because most of the times they didn't kill their opponents. Because as you said there, when you had that herald come out saying how many fights they'd won, how many they'd drawn, how many they'd lost. Yes. So was it more often than not that a gladiator would not die in one of these one-on-one fights? Look, we do have a lot of funeral inscriptions. Most of the time they talk about, again, you know, Fiamma de Retiari is 38 fights, 25 wins, 9 stand misses, 9 draws, retired at 30.

people did die from one of the things they majorly died from was injuries because you are using weapons it's a very dangerous thing let's not you know beat around the bush combat sports are incredibly dangerous if you look at greek sports wrestling boxing boxing i mean you didn't have a time limit you basically incapacitated and blows to the face and the groin were accepted which often led to disfigurement to death uh same with pancration so combat sports were very violent and gladiatorial combat is part of that it's part of that pantheon of sports

So the dangers were you are using weapons. In fact, one of the things they don't wear tunics is because the linen or the wool getting stuck in a wound would kill you, would cause an infection. But what we do find from modern forensics on gladiatorial skeletons is that these guys majoritably have medical care. So they have wounds that are then healed.

So you've not only got a doctor that's healing you, but you're also paying for the time that the injured can recover because we see from the bones that they actually physically recover even from medical amputations. So they've healed afterwards.

But there must still be some cases. My mind is immediately thinking, because I've just done something on the Tutabo Forest and Arminius' son who gets captured and taken to Rome and their story that he ultimately becomes a gladiator in Ravenna or somewhere but dies before he's 20. Yeah. So there must still be some cases where gladiators did perish. Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, you take...

I tend to think it goes more with the who's in charge. Like you get someone like Caligula. Caligula was a psychopath. And in fact, he's said to have been ruled by charioteers and gladiators. I mean, he starts with over 2.3 million sesterce left over from Tiberius who didn't put on very many games. So he saved a lot of money and he squandered it all on games. And he loved, you know, he was sadistic. He loved watching people fight to the death.

And so there are certainly moments where gladiators were expected to fight to the death. But I think they're an absolute rarity. They're not the standard.

Well, let's bust a few myths quickly. You mentioned earlier these tigers and pumas and that's happening earlier on. Were there any cases where gladiators will be pitched against animals? No, but you did have dexterity in gladiators in that they trained in different classifications. So we have an inscription of a guy called Chrysalis who was a hunter, became a ritiaris. So you could change profession. Once again, Julius Caesar...

is the first to put the munas of gladiatorial combat and beast hunts together. He puts them together and Augustus makes them the standard. So they're closely associated, but no, you wouldn't have a gladiator. Why would you? You wouldn't have a trained boxer go and play American football. He might hurt himself or vice versa. You wouldn't have a great quarterback be a boxer. Very different sport.

I'd also like to ask about, let's say you're being a gladiator, you're fighting all these fights, you're not dying or you get injured but you recover and you gain this popularity, this big following, almost like a social media influencer of your day, this ancient celebrities. Do we know how someone might decide, right, I've had my fair share of time in the arena, how could they, the phrase you always get is either win their freedom or retire. I mean, do they try to win their freedom almost?

Well, if you're a slave, you certainly would. I mean, you know, it's this thing about freedom that interests me because we always think that gladiators were slaves, but athletes were regarded as slaves in antiquity. Philostratus, the Greek, says that a trainer should hold a strigil for two reasons. The first is to clean his athlete and the second to kill him if he doesn't perform perfectly. And he's not being facetious. He's being quite serious about it. Athletes, gladiators, soldiers, as a category, they're people who give up their autonomy to

or have no autonomy because they are at the will of their trainer who will bend them and train them into the purpose they wish. So is a soldier free? No. When you sign up to the army, you say you're going to be trained as a soldier. You can't after a year go, well, that was fun. I'm going to leave.

How do you get out of it? It's the same with gladiators. I think the easy thing about gladiators is that we don't often do is apply them to modern sports or modern situations because the answers are actually around us. Let's say, would they finish their contract? What would happen next for a gladiator? You might go sign with another school. Wow.

Why not? You know, you might go sign with another team. You might retire. But why would you retire though? There's a great mention of a gladiator called Hermes, the toast of the empire. There's a mention of a gladiator being offered his freedom. He says, why would I want to be free? I'm loved in Rome. I'm in a very social circle. I'm wealthier than most of you. So it really depends on the individual. It's the same reason as to why would someone be a gladiator? Why would someone be an MMA fighter? Some for glory, some for riches, some for fame.

some for immortality. It depends on the individual, I would say. Because it could be, and it's like in Gladiator, the returning of a retired Gladiator to the arena. Like you've taken some time off, but you're coming back because you want that adrenaline of being in front of a crowd again. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You can imagine things like that actually happening. Oh yeah. I mean, Tiberius gifted a retired Gladiator 100,000 sesterces. Wow. Yeah. Okay. And again, remember just, you know, people will say, how much is sesterces today? I don't deal with modern amounts, but 900 sesterces is a soldier's

annual wage. So put that in perspective. You can either choose between going to the army, having over 20 years of service, maybe dying in a ditch somewhere in a forest in Germany or being, you know, after being nailed to a tree and having some barbarian chopping you up. Or you can take a risk, go in the amphitheater and make vast fortunes that soldiers will never see their entire careers. I'm blown away by the fact that there is this belief that so many gladiators will want to keep on being a gladiator. And because of the

Is there any truth in that wooden sword getting a Rudis, mark of your freedom? Do we believe that that actually happened at the end? The Rudis is very symbolic. First of all, it's the training weapon of the gladiator. It's the name of the referee. Oftentimes, the Rudis was offered to Hercules. There's a great temple of Hercules. You know, the Mouth of Truth is in Rome. I don't know. It's just by where the Form Barum used to be. It's that beautiful round temple of Hercules. Well, they call the Vestal Virgin Temple by its name.

It's wrong. It's the temple of Hercules the victor. So when a gladiator successfully would win about or win his palms, he would then go there and he would lay the rudis inside as a votive gift to Hercules.

Well, you mentioned earlier how certain emperors also fought as gladiators. So I won't ask about that because it's Commodus and Caligula, isn't it? Yes. Well, Hadrian fights lions in front of the public. I see. Yeah. Wow. Okay, so Hadrian as well. So you get those, which seems so odd in its own right, but as you say, it's kind of that shifting of power dynamic of everyone wanting to be the gladiator in the arena. Yeah. But as the centuries go on, do we know what happens to gladiators? Well, first of all, the money went out of it.

And second of all, you have the introduction of Christianity. And it's interesting because Christian writers like Augustine, for example, they're not so concerned about what's going on in the arena, which tells you a lot. It's not about the death of Christians.

because there isn't that much death. It's about the effect it has on the people. Actually, early Christian writers are very critical and try to get gladiatorial combat banned. They're not so much concerned about the welfare of the gladiators or what's happening. They're concerned about the effect it has on their brothers, on society. And in fact, he tells a story of a young chap who's training. He's in Rome and his pagan friends drag him to the coliseum. And he says, no, I will not, you know, I will cover my eyes. And then as he gets in, he hears the roar of the crowd and he kind of peeks away and he looks and

And Augustine says he becomes drunk on the furies and that it changes him and he visibly sees the change. So Christianity was a big one.

Constantine, the edict of Beirut, decides that there will be no gladiator shows in Rome. No one listens to him. And it goes up to about 430. The last gladiator show we have recorded is about 440 AD. We have a commemorative coin about it. But after that, it just died. And the biggest thing was that where the biggest stadium was, where the sort of mecca of gladiatorial comment was the Colosseum, it was no longer the capital of the empire. So the power that the Roman mob had

was no longer important. There was no need to win the favor of them because their vote meant nothing. And much like, you know, many sports and many industries, it just, it kind of died out.

Until today. Until today, exactly. And that's kind of the revival of it today because that's the image we think of with ancient Rome because of movies and TV and that revived legacy of them, people thinking it's bloodier than it actually is. My theory is that if you erased society, right? You erased history and you started again from scratch. You start with people on a hill with huts like Romulus does. Eventually when it reaches a peak, it'll build a stadium. There's something to be said about the fact that the Romans gave an opportunity to...

to sport was a way out of poverty. And it still is today. I mean, all our greatest sportsmen tend to be people who come from really very poor backgrounds. And it's because our civilization is at a peak as Roman civilization was that you had the ability to change your social status and your economic status by simply your physicality and your skill.

Well, Alex, I could ask questions about this for hours. This has been absolutely awesome. When are we going to talk about Gladiator? Oh, let's talk a bit about Gladiator. No, I'm teasing, I'm teasing. But we've got quite a few references in there at the moment. Yeah, and I watched your video recently about Gladiator. We should actually do one where we watch it together because I'm a person that you cannot watch a film with people.

people always think I'd love to watch gladiator with you or Spartacus and then about five minutes in they're like this is terrible because I literally I tend to have I have so many references and so many historical things and you know mention things like Tigress wasn't a gladiator who's actually a messenger of the ludus magnus and well you know much more than me so I was like we'll have to do it and then of course there is an ex-gladiator coming up so maybe we can do that in the future yes yes yes um but my friend this has been awesome thank you just goes for me to say thank you so much thank you it's been an absolute pleasure really thank you

Well, there you go. There was Alexander Mariotti talking all the things the Roman gladiator. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you want more about the gladiators, then I might recommend you go and listen to an episode we recorded about a year ago now, all about the gladiators of Pompeii and the amazing archaeological evidence for gladiators in that Roman town that have been preserved because of the gladiators.

because of the infamous eruption of Mount Vesuvius. That was also a fantastic episode. So go and listen to Gladiators of Pompeii too if you want even more stuff on these ancient fighters of the Roman arenas. Go listen on Spotify. Last thing from me, wherever you are listening to the podcast, make sure that you are subscribed, that you are following the ancients so that you don't miss out when we release new episodes twice every week.

That's enough from me, and I will see you in the next episode.

Sign up at adroll.com slash ROI to join the club. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.

If you've ever dreamed of quitting your job to take your side hustle full time, listen up. This is Nakayla Matthews-O'Colmey, host of Side Hustle Pro, a podcast that helps you build and grow from passion project to profitable business. Every week, you'll hear from guests just like you who wanted to start a business on the side. You can't run a side hustle. You can't run a business. They share real tips. And so I started connecting with all these people on LinkedIn and I saw Target Supplier Diversity was having office hours.

Real advice. Procrastination is the easiest form of resistance. And the actual strategies they use to turn their side hustle into their main hustle. Getting back in touch with your tangible cash and sitting down and learning to give your money a job, like it changes something. Check out Side Hustle Pro every week on your favorite podcast app and YouTube. Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.