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Well, thank you for meeting me, obviously. I completely understand your hesitation. I mean, as with anybody else's, to be honest. Yeah. Your name is just central in this. I know. For whatever reason, I think that by telling your story in its entirety, it can help us find out what happened to her, you know?
From Tinderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is Up and Vanished. I'm your host Payne Lindsey. Why do you think that your name got brought into it in the first place? Because of Paul. I think he said stuff to Kim because of, now I think about it, yeah, because he said, you know, I knew more than I knew. Or I was saying, but...
I didn't and he knew that but he was the only one who knew that I didn't know. And he knew that in his gut and his heart. Why would he say something like that? Because either he was jealous not like a boyfriend and girlfriend type of way or either he
I don't know. Either he wanted to set me up, that's what I keep thinking it is. Back then, like just weeks after it happened, you did make a few different posts and stuff saying that Paul was trying to set you up. Where did that idea come from? Wheezy Emerson, Louise Emerson told me that. Who's that? She was my best friend and she used to live with me out there at the trailer until her and Paul started messing around.
I stopped by her house one day and I said I wanted to know if she knew anything that was going on. And she said she knew a lot. And I said, well, get in and go smoke a bowl. And so we went up by Durham on Durham Road and we sat there and she started telling me that Paul and Loxie and Sam were all involved, that they were setting me up, that they sold Ashley to the Mexicans.
for some kind of bill. And so I was like, thinking, you know, at that point, I mean, people were telling me some really messed up shit and I would go with it. And I just told her, you know, I don't want to be a friend anymore and I'm sorry, you know. And she came out, gave me a hug and everything, tried to give Paul a hug and he wouldn't have it. And I just said, you know, I don't know who's lying to me or not, but, you know, and I didn't try to beat her up or nothing. I swear, that's it.
Cody Grounds told me that she was up in the mountains with the Mexicans and that she was okay. And I went up there and I looked like a damn idiot because I called the cops and everything too. And I didn't find anybody. So you went to the mountains to look for her? Where Cody Grounds told me they were. I mean, I ended up seeing Cody Grounds a year later and asked her why she did that.
And she said she didn't know. She was really high. I seen her in jail. But people were telling, I mean, I had people telling me stuff like that. And then I had people telling me just to leave it alone. And I was like, I can. That's a lot of names, rumors, and speculation, none of which I've been able to actually verify. But I'm listening. Let's get more into it. If I knew that Paul and her were having an affair, maybe that she wouldn't be missing right now or something. I could have confronted him.
I could have told her. I don't know why everybody... Well, I do know why everybody blames me because I have a really bad reputation of beating up girls over my guys. Can you give me an example? When I was with Austin Mancha, I busted Shainel's jaw with a pair of brass knuckles in front of a C-Store. But it wasn't over really Austin at that time. It was over her snitching. And so I drug her across the parking lot until...
Red Cloud came and stopped me. He was working there. She didn't tell on me though. She said that she didn't know who did it. And yeah, I was shocked. I don't know why they didn't look on the cameras. I mean, I was right there. I don't know if Red Cloud got rid of it or what. But yeah, she had a big mouth. And then the second time I seen her was over Austin.
I caught her in the pickup with him and I didn't hurt her this time because she was already screaming bloody murder. So I was pretty drunk too and he was like, you know, we're all gonna get our ass kicked now, you know, so just go with it. And she was trying to get out and they wouldn't let her out. And so I just grabbed her by her hair and drug her to the other car, told Beaver, take your snatch and take her home. - I've done a lot of talking with Sam and all kinds of people since I've talked to you.
It looks like Ashley definitely did leave Sam's house. And so whatever happened to Ashley happened after that. And she did tell Sam that she was meeting Paul. Yeah. Do you know who picked her up after Sam said the divide? He said B-Dog. Have you ever asked Paul if he picked her up? Yeah, and he told me no. No? He said that they broke up a month before.
Kimberly told me a strange story about T, where she claimed that Ashley was with Paul in some motel room with blonde hair. She told me on text messages, she said, "Ashley is with Paul Venezuela in Shelby, Montana in this hotel room in this number. She has blonde hair now." So we called the cops, called the FBI and the BIA, and they flew down there. The girl that's with him with blonde hair, to Sheena. Maybe it was some kind of sick game that she wanted to play. I asked her about this.
I want to explain that to her and be like, "I'm sorry because she thought I was trying to make up a lie and say I was her." And I was like, "No, I didn't know. I was just going off what people were telling me." Cole told me that he's seen her in Shelby with blonde hair. But come to think of it, I had blonde hair and I was the only one with Paul staying at Super 8 in Shelby.
And I didn't even think about thinking of my damn self. And I started saying, Kim, she's in Jalopy, blah, blah, blah. And that was the day I found out I was pregnant. My biggest mistake was letting him know everything about me. Him as in Paul. You're supposed to keep a little bit to yourself as a woman. Sure. And he used everything against me. Like my beliefs, he used that. And he manipulated me.
But I didn't care as long as I had some fat sack and drugs. That's how I met him, is he sold me drugs. He sold me bunk. - What's that? - It's dope that's not dope, and that will get you sick and kill you.
I stopped him and I threw it at him and he took off back out of Seattle or back to wherever I thought he was in Seattle actually he was actually living in Cupbink at the time but I didn't know that because I didn't know him I just thought he was someone new from out of town but I always made sure that I knew who was all in town because
We have people dropping left and right over drugs. Yeah, I'm not doing the right thing either, but I'm making sure it's not cut. I don't cut my shit or step on it. - Yeah, yeah, that'll poison you. Kill people. - Well, he started doing that. And I caught my friend, who's related to him, supposedly,
who had it and she had one case and one case and I grabbed her case and I fucking tossed it up in the air and just spilled it everywhere. I said, "Fuck that shit." She's like, "Oh my God, you know how much trouble I can..." I said, "Fuck, tell him to come see me." - Yeah. - And he did. He came and seen me and he asked if I would work for him and I said, "Don't be playing anybody." And he didn't. 'Til maybe he got me away from town, he started pulling his shit. I don't know, like it just seemed
Like it was all like he planned this whole thing like it just from the very beginning it just seems. So that's how it seems that's why I always say it's like a movie. This person I didn't even know anything about his past until I met his daughter and that's when I got pregnant and took care of his kids while he was in prison and I met her and she told me a lot that he never mentioned. Told me that they used to do crack cocaine.
have parties in their houses and tell maybe the girls were about nine and maybe five and they start being big old gospel people who went to church all the time and sat outside no tv read the bible i don't know and i was just like wow i've never seen that person were you ever in love with them yes yeah yeah in the beginning oh yeah
To think that, you know, a guy can end up thinking that he might be the one who did this and then you were with him and you have a child with him. Can you help me kind of understand why it seems like you go back and forth about whether or not Paul is involved in this? Is it because you are afraid to say that because he's the father of your daughter? No, yeah, I guess a little bit, but I just don't know because I don't know who really did it.
Tia told me in text a few days prior that she spoke to a medium about Ashley. I don't put much stock into that stuff. But anyway, the medium told her that Paul raped and killed Ashley. She showed me the screenshots.
But I know one thing that he was really good with a 9mm. One time I went hunting and I only had one bullet and my deer was still alive, my doe, and it was dark out. I had a knife so I figured, you know, well he's strong, he can get down there and, you know, cut her throat. And instead he just really fast took out his 9, pitch black dark, shot her right between the eyes. Bad with a rifle though, but he was pretty good with a pistol. 9mm.
His brother has that 9mm now and that would have been the gun that was used on her if he did shoot her. Because I left that gun and all his clothes in the storage and then I just took all the drugs and the kids' clothes and came back to Browning. No, I stayed until his court date and then on his court date is when his PO told me that
In the last episode, I spoke to a lady named Wendy, and she said this about tea:
She was high and she was just saying that, you know, she was having trouble with her boyfriend, that he keeps harassing her and kicking in the door. And she borrowed a gun. She was going to have the gun for safety. That was just before all of this happened. Did T pick up that gun in person or did you leave it out for her? She picked it up in person and I never did see the gun again.
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You can do more without spending more. Learn how to save at Cox.com slash internet. Cox internet is connected to the premises via coaxial cable. Cox mobile runs on the network with unbeatable 5G reliability as measured by UCLA LLC in the U.S. to age 2023. Results may vary, not an endorsement of the restrictions apply. I asked T if she knew Wendy. Do you know a lady named Wendy Bird? I do. She's, I don't know her personally, but I think I know her a little bit. I've heard of her.
Is that um... No, who's that? She told me that before Ashley went missing that you had borrowed a rifle from her. Wendy Bird. I didn't borrow any rifles. People always sold me them and they were always stolen so... I had a .30-06. I had a pink butterfly rifle .22 and then I had a shot off shotgun.
I never had pistols though. But, and then those are the, oh, and my 20, I think it was a 29, 27. It was a little gun that could take 22 bullets though, a rifle. And I could put them in there and use it. But I can't remember what kind it was, but they were all stolen. I admit that. Because one 22 ended up back into the hands of the owner.
Like, when I was there and I was like, "Oops, it wasn't me. Go blame Tommy Ray. She sold it to me." So he did. He already knew. So I gave it back to him. - Did you borrow a rifle from Wendy? - Wendy Bird. - She claims that you did. - No, I don't think so. No, I don't think so. I mean, if I see her face... See, you have to understand, I was higher than a kite every day. From the time I woke up, I ate my breakfast and I smoked my bowl.
From the time till I went to sleep. Going off, I made sure I slept though. I did not stay up for... No, she sold me a gun. She sold me a .22. Yes. I bring her some dope, she sold me a gun for dope.
So why did you buy a gun from Wendy? She said she needed some dough. So I said, well, I'll give you a 50 for it. She said, all right. So I gave her that 50. She said that you... And it was a rifle that was sawed off on the back. She said that you bought the gun because you needed protection from Paul. That too, because I was just moved into...
She's not wrong.
I think people are just confused about where you're coming from. Because they never let me sit here and tell them where I'm coming from. I mean, I could, I've been like, ever since I've talked to you, I've been slowly recording myself on things I can remember, you know, and why didn't you do that before you met me?
Because I figured nobody wanted to listen and I never had time. I had a baby to worry about. Since I didn't do anything, I just figured fuck it. I'm not gonna help. You guys want to sit there? Because what's the point? I could sit there and stare at you blue in the face until we got something or a confession. I'm still gonna get blamed no matter how much you put this out there. Until we find out what happened to her and who did it or a confession.
I'm gonna stay here for the rest of my life with that hanging over me. But when I walk into Browning, it's like a witch hunt. Cops are all over me. Sucks. So why did you feel like you needed protection from Paul to the point where you needed to find out? Because he came into my house one night while I was sleeping and busted through my door and came into my room screaming, where's Ashley? Drunker than a cat.
That was the first time I knew there is definitely something going on with him because he knew, he knows I don't know where Ashley is. And that was actually the very first time before I even knew about the text. Like I knew about the text when the reporters told me.
That was the very first time I started getting blamed. Which text? They showed me, or they wanted to show me, but I said no. But they said that there was a text that even on the video of ABC News that I knew more than I was saying. Yeah. That he texted Kim that. And I was just like, that's when I didn't believe him anymore and I knew he was lying.
Around what time was this? 2018 or 17, the end of 2017, around in November, I just got my house in Whitefish. And ABC News came up there and recorded me, or whatever the fuck they did, got their story. Because I thought it was to, you know, let me tell my side or whatever, but they just took out certain clips of
and put my photo shot or mug shot in there and made me look like I was a bad person. I told you I owned a bunch of guns, but so did Paul. Paul owned machine guns. He owned a 25. You know what a 25 is? It's one of the loudest rifles in the world. It's like an elephant gun. And I had no idea where he got that from, but when it shot, it was like a boom, bang.
I bought that gun after Ashley went missing. Like maybe in August or September is when I got that gun. God, I haven't heard of Wendy. The reason why I don't talk to Wendy and why she don't talk to me is because her son threatened to kill my daughter. And she's mad because I had Pat
I showed T a screenshot on my phone.
Remember Vernon's girlfriend Rosie who sent Ashley's cousin a message on Facebook that said I had part in her murder Rosie told me in person that it wasn't her who sent that message and that she was probably hacked I wanted T's thoughts on this whole thing. I've seen that too. I seen that I absolutely seen that I don't know I seen that and
Hey, those came to me and was asking to send you. I don't know. I've seen that though. It came to me too. What do you mean it came to you too? In a forward. This little thing went all over. That screenshot? Yes. Why would Rosie say that? I don't know. I mean, really, I don't know Rosie. I don't. I know Rosie, maybe to take up for Paul. I don't know. I don't think she would say that. Yeah.
That's her cousin. It's like her third cousin. Why would she say, why would she implicate herself? I don't think she did. That's really foolish, right? I don't think she did. I think Vernon might have did it. I mean, yeah, Vernon and her had their ups and downs. They still do. Why would Vernon do it, though? Maybe to hurt her. Or either Paul got her phone, she sold it to him, and maybe he did that. I don't know. I always wondered that, too. Did you ever try to talk to her? Yeah. And what did she say? She said she has no idea how that happened.
Because I was wondering too. I've seen it too. I've seen that before. I mean, she claims that she did not send that. And so... I don't think I would send anything like that either. Would you? No. If you had a part in a murder? I wouldn't think so. The way I see it now, it's like, based on all the facts, Paul was going to pick her up.
And, you know, presumably that happened at some point because she's not there anymore. Yeah. I think whoever did it, if they regretted it, they would let some type of emotion out then. What do you mean? Like emotion of a cry. At least say something. But if it was Paul, maybe he wouldn't let an emotion out. Well, Paul hasn't talked to anybody. Yeah, because he's a narcissistic sociopath. The way I see it is
The only way out for you, the cleanest way out, is to help you. Is to help me. And if we're over here like, okay, you didn't do it, Sam didn't do it, Paul's the only one not talking. And she says it. She said that's him. That's how I believe it. I believe that she wasn't, that wasn't Paul talking on that Facebook. I believe that was her telling me everything. That he did it. That he shot her and raped her. Raped her and shot her.
I just don't understand when. So, I mean, where do you think that we go from here? How do we get out of the standstill of you being stuck in the vortex of people in the community blaming you? How do we prove that you didn't do it? Or how do we get to...
How do we get to the truth? I don't know. I asked for another reading or something to have her tell me where she is or either tell me what, like something where we can find her or Leo. I don't know. That's the only thing. That was my last, last thing I could do because I was running out of answers because I have multiple things popping in my head that could have happened. She's referring again to what the medium told her. I'm sending my Aunt Tina money directly to her bank account in the Philippines with Western Union. Oh!
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I'm Dan Taberski. In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York. I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad. I'm like, stop f***ing around. She's like, I can't. A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast. It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls. With a diagnosis, the state tried to keep on the down low. Everybody thought I was holding something back. Well, you were holding something back intentionally. Yeah, yeah, well, yeah.
No, it's hysteria. It's all in your head. It's not physical. Oh my gosh, you're exaggerating. Is this the largest mass hysteria since The Witches of Salem? Or is it something else entirely? Something's wrong here. Something's not right. Leroy was the new dateline and everyone was trying to solve the murder. A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios. Hysterical.
Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. A few years ago, ABC ran a story on Ashley, and T was interviewed in that piece. She brings it up a lot. Apparently, she's mad about how they portrayed her. During that time period, Paul was in prison, so the ABC producers wrote him.
Paul told ABC News in a letter that he could quote, "reveal who did all this to Ashley." Trust me, I'm the only one who can. But he'd only tell them if they moved him prisons, which they obviously didn't do. But why is Paul saying stuff like this? I asked T about it. Why do you think Paul told ABC that he knows what happened to Ashley? Because maybe he knows what happened to her. But he probably didn't realize he was saying it, or maybe that's part of him setting me up.
I don't know, he typed it out. He probably thought about it more since then than you would think. I've seen that. I've seen that. Why would he say that? He told me when I asked him why he said that, that they typed it out. ABC News did that to them, to him. And that ABC News is lying about him saying that I knew more than I was saying. He said that they were lying. But I knew they weren't. I'm not dumb. I'm like, yeah, they're lying for you? No. I mean, what does that tell you?
If you didn't do it, then why is Paul playing with everybody? Maybe he... To me, Paul is the type that wants to be on top of the world and nobody can touch him. And he wants to make sure everybody knows that. I could touch him, though. I wasn't afraid of him. I've held... He's held guns to my head. I've held guns to his head. I've beat him up multiple times. And he's held me down, but he's never punched me. Nothing. Maybe pushed me, but never...
How do I get Paul to talk?
I don't know. Wendy, who I spoke to in the last episode, also told me about a new Cadillac car that T had. She said that after Ashley went missing, T had that car crushed by her friend. My friend, he hauls cars and crushes them. She was determined to have him get that car out of there and crush it. That's what he did is he just kind of went around and picked up cars and crushed them and got paid for it. He got the car and crushed it. I don't know where he took it to.
The man who allegedly crushed the car is named Kelly. I asked he about this. Do you know a guy named Kelly Gallino? Yes, I do. Who is that guy? Kelly Gallino was a good friend of mine before Ashley went missing. And you were not friends afterwards? Nope, not really. Because he was the first one I asked if he knew, if he knew about Ashley and Paul, and he did. He did what? He knew about Ashley and Paul and didn't tell me.
when I pretty much took care of them. - I mean, did that hurt? - It's hard to believe that you think that people are close to you, but really, you gotta start listening to the whys, and they're not there for you. - I mean, some people aren't, but some people-- - The only one who's there-- - Some people are, but like-- - The one who stood by my side through this whole thing is Darcy Gallineau. She helped me, took care of me while I was pregnant, and when Paul was getting me sick.
Clay is one of Paul's friends.
No. I did not. Really? No?
He, because I was going to call the cops on Kelly, and he said, no, Clayton and them came and got it, and they took it to Great Falls. Paul told me he sold it to a guy in Great Falls. So what happened to that car? I don't know. And it has my plates on it, too. What happened to Ashley and my car? I thought you said that Kelly crushed it, though. He didn't crush it. I said he was going to fix it. Yeah, but you said, I thought, Paul. No, Paul...
He said Paul took it, him and Clay came and loaded it up, and Paul told me that he sold it to someone in Great Falls. And that's the last thing I ever knew about that car. But it always dawned on my head, well, my car's gone and Ashley's gone. Why would Paul have any business taking your car? Do you know where Browning is? He bought that car for me. But it was in my name.
Because I wasn't gonna let him buy anything for me that he could take, which I thought... Yeah, if that wasn't your name, then that's a crime. That's a crime. I was married to him. So every time I stole his truck, nobody could do anything about it. But...
I know there's a lot of names here, but stay with me. She's talking about a sexual relationship she had with a man named Kenny Berdue, who was a Blackfeet police officer. Kimberly had mentioned this to me before.
The first person she called was an officer, the Officer Badu. He worked for BLES, the Blackfeet Law Enforcement. It was on speakerphone and it said, "You reached Officer Badu." And then right then and there he called back and he said, "Don't worry, don't worry. It's not about Ashley." At that time, we weren't able to get a hold of any officer because nobody would answer our phone calls. But for them to call back a suspect right away,
Not according to Wendy,
In this point, four years later, all we can really look at are just the facts, right? Yeah. Facts are Sam took her to the Divide and... Paul made it back from Seattle that fast? I don't know. Like, I don't think. What do you mean that fast?
From me getting dropped off maybe around... When he dropped you off? About 6:00, 5:30 in the afternoon. On what day though? On the 10th. See, this is on the 11th. Yeah, but he dropped me off. Do you think he could have got back there that fast in the morning all the way to Divide? If he did, he would have had to take just straight through, but... I mean, even if he didn't come back,
This is very important information here.
T says that Paul left her in Seattle on June 10th. Sam said he dropped Ashley off at Divide to be picked up by Paul on June 11th. This is T's alibi, if it all checks out. So on the 11th, Paul was... I guess either that's... He was not in Seattle. He was not in Seattle, no. No, he was not in Seattle. That's for sure. So it's like...
If this person can vouch for T being in Seattle those days, it would at least bring a little more credence to her story. Do you mind calling that friend of yours that you were with in Seattle? Okay.
My interview with T will be continued. Next week we're releasing a Q&A episode.
I know this story is beyond puzzling, and now's the time I can answer any questions you guys have. So please give us a call. The number is 404-410-0911. Again, that's 404-410-0911. Leave your question on the voicemail, and it may be answered next week. Thanks guys, I'll see you soon.
Up and Vanish is a production of Tenderfoot TV. Created, hosted, and edited by Payne Lindsey. Executive producers are Payne Lindsey and Donald Albright. Original score by Makeup and Vanity Set. Our theme song is Ophelia by Ezra Rose. Sound design, mixing, and mastering by Cooper Skinner. Additional production by Cooper Skinner, Eric Quintana, and myself, Mike Rooney.
Our cover art is by Trevor Eiler. Special thanks to Grace Royer and Oren Rosenbaum at UTA. Ryan Nord, Jesse Nord, and Matthew Papa at The Nord Group. Station 16, Beck Media and Marketing, as well as Chris Cochran and the team at Cadence 13. Visit us on social media at Up and Vantage, or you can visit us at upandvantage.com where you can join in on our discussion board.
If you're enjoying Up Advantage, tell a friend, family member, or coworker about it. And don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening. It's Madeline Barron from In the Dark. I've spent the past four years investigating a crime. When you're driving down this road, I might plan on killing somebody.
A four-year investigation, hundreds of interviews, thousands of documents, all in an effort to see what the U.S. military has kept from the public for years. Did you think that a war crime had been committed? I don't have any opinion on that. Season three of In the Dark is available now, wherever you get your podcasts.