Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
Okay, you can do this. I know, I know. Carvana makes it so convenient to sell your car. It's just hard to let go. My car and I have been through so much together. But look, you already have a great offer from Carvana. That was fast. Well, I know my license plate and VIN by heart, and those questions were easy. You're almost there. Now to just accept the offer and schedule a pickup or drop-off. How'd you do it? How are you so strong in letting go of your car? Well, I already made up my mind, and Carvana's so easy. Yeah, true.
And sold. Go to Carvana.com to sell your car the convenient way. I hope he's a nice guy. I see him. Hey, man. How you doing? I'm paying. Who's paying? Damn right. Seeing you guys get out of your truck, fucking got cameras just watching you guys. And I thought, what the fuck are they doing? So I went and looked at my cameras, and then I grabbed this. If I'd have seen a gun in your hand, I'd have raised it.
Have you seen a gun come out? I just shot you ass. From Tinderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is Up and Vanished. I'm your host, Payne Lindsey. I'm friends with Kimberly Loring. My name's Cooper. Kimberly?
Yeah. Ashley's sister? Yeah. We're just doing a podcast on her disappearance and we were just curious if we could chat for a few minutes. Yeah, a little bit, yeah. Do you mind if we just sit down and chat for a few minutes? Is that cool? Kimberly said you would be down to talk. I usually am for her, but we'll sit over here. Sure, yeah. This is when it starts to get really tough. Do I tell you as the listener how I feel about this person's guilt or innocence?
how much do i read into his mannerisms his overall behavior i'm not anticipating anyone in this case dropping a full confession in one of our interviews though that would be really nice i gotta focus on being objective right now but we're all human aren't we things from this point forward in the podcast become something i've found exceptionally difficult to navigate and with complete transparency i don't know who killed ashley at least not yet
everyone wants to know what happens everyone's freaking out you know you know and in this moment right here right now i'm prepared to give sam mcdonald the stage what's his side of the story the fact that i'm even here and he's still talking to me seems like a pretty good sign a great sign actually and he's agreed to go on record with me everything i'm telling you i should just keep playing my cool he's starting to seem pretty benign but his pistol is still sitting there on the table i'm just being over paranoid about the gun right
but i don't have a gun with me it's montana it's totally normal keep your eye contact relax let's just talk we got to know each other for a little bit despite our scary first encounter there he didn't seem threatening he seemed sincere even but is he hiding something i don't know it's pretty scary going on right now it's scary right now i don't know who to
I've had threats through Facebook from fake people that don't want to show who they are. Just vigilante shit. That ain't gonna go without a fight. They might get me, but I'm gonna get two. They better be sneaky Indians, you know? 'Cause I'm a sneaky Indian. It's just fucked up. They believe these people. They believe 'em.
The whole reservation believes these rumors, you know? What were they saying? They were just like, "Oh, you had four guys up there raped her and married her?" I'm like, "Fuck you guys. Holy shit." "Man, you guys are fucked up. You believe rumors and shit too?" I'm a religious man, you know, I don't live every day of the...
I smoke weed. That's God-given shit. That's God-given. But I was on a five-year bender. I went through a divorce. And next thing I started doing meth, you know. Enough was enough, you know. I didn't get hooked up with no big fucking dealers or anything, you know. I wasn't no big dope dealer. Fuck. Like they tried to make me sound to be.
When I was younger, you know, and that's where everybody thinks, "Oh, Sam's this." When I was younger, I rode bulls. I fought men, you know. I don't fucking, I still fight. I'm 60 years old. Ain't nobody fight even, you know, anymore. You know, I had my day like any other man when I was young. Any other Blackfeet. I abused my first two wives, you know. I was mean to them. I was a mean man when I was younger. You know, I admit to that shit.
Why were you, do you think? Just the way you get raised. What do you mean? My stepdad beat my mom. You know, it's a fucking thing. It's a curse, you know, and you got to stop it somewhere. And my last wife, I never laid a hand on her ever, you know. I was with her for 12 years. It's been a long haul. Over four years now, I think. June 11th.
I cry my heart out. According to Sam, the last time he saw Ashley was on the morning of June 11th, 2017. This is nearly six days after the party at Vernon's house. How did he meet Ashley? Where did I meet Ashley? I met her on a high-hello basis once. And then I was at this guy's big gal's house.
So he picks up Ashley from Big Al's house.
They spend six days together at his cabin, getting high, according to him. And on the sixth day, he claims he was ready to take her home. -I wanted her to go kind of regroup, go home, work on her truck and stuff, you know, meet her family. She didn't want to go home, she said. -Why not? -I don't know. She said, "Sam, I don't want to go home." She disappeared on me a couple times. -What do you mean, huh? -Just disappear and then come back later.
Saturday, I got so drunk, I passed out here. She headed out. She was gone like for seven hours maybe. It was five in the afternoon. And at one in the morning, here she come right through here walking. And she was just like all fucked up. It wasn't meth. And she come back and she was pointing in the air.
like that and stuff and she'd sit in my cars and... What was she on? I don't know what it was. She'd come back at one that morning and she was all fucked up and I'm like, fuck, I better get her home, you know. I didn't want to be responsible for her being that fucked up, you know. And about...
Nine that morning, she started kind of coming down and kind of being reasonable, you know. I said, well, let's go home. I'll bring you home. You can get clothes. I'll work on your pickup. I was just trying to get her home, you know. I said, I'll work on your truck. I was with her this Sunday. I was bringing her home. And she told me she was texting all the way up the hill, up Divide. Headed to Badger Creek was our designation. I traveled Divide all the time.
Every day I pray for her when I go over there. It was a nice day like this. It was 10 in the morning, 9:30, 10, you know? And she said, "Pull over up here. My ride V-Dog's almost here." And that's the only time I heard V-Dog. And if I had to do that day over, I'd have kept going, you know? 'Cause I was bringing her to the Badger Creek. And she told me to pull over up on top there, 'cause she had a ride coming.
V-dog. I leaned my chair back. Last thing we talked about, she said, "Sam, where's that cabin up there?" And I showed her a cabin on Divide. Way at the top of the smoke cabin. And she's like, "Oh yeah." She said, "How do you get to it?" I said, "I think there's a trail that goes down the back." And I leaned my chair back like that and boom. You know, I was awake. I went to sleep.
And I wish I never-- I wish-- and nobody woke me up. I woke up myself. So when you woke up in your car, what were you thinking? What was the first thought that came to your head? I thought it was like two minutes when I woke up up there. I thought it was like two minutes, but I figured it had to have been 40 minutes. Sleeping. In that 40 minutes that you were asleep,
Where do you think she went? She got her ride with V-Dog. Because he was almost there, she said, pull over on top. She's like, Sam, I don't want to go home yet. She's like, and then I just kept driving. And then we got almost top. She's like, Sam, pull over up here. My ride V-Dog's almost here. And I was so tired. And so I pulled over. I didn't know who V-Dog was. Thought maybe it was a cousin or something.
Anyway, and I fell asleep. I woke up. I told her to tell me before she left, and she didn't. She just left. And I woke up, and I'm like, fuck, I hope she didn't fucking walk up there. That was my first thought. I led a search with all. There was like five different police departments, like the Homeland Security, FBI, the BIA, the Blackfeet, the...
There was sheriffs, two sheriffs hiked up with us. There was maybe even 12. And I said, "This is my fear." That she walked up there and something got her, you know? Sure, yeah. And so we walked all the way to the bottom of the mountain, spread out. You know, what I said, "This is where I parked, and this is where I woke up." And you will figure, what's the most obvious trail?
or most unobvious, you know? She was kind of, she was like, oh, this is so beautiful, you know? So she was curious about it. Yeah, she loved it. It would have made sense for her to wander up there. Yeah, that was my fear when I woke up. I don't mind getting it out, you know? I want to know, too, where the fuck she's at. Obviously, your name is in the mix because you're one of the last people to see her, right? It's called confusion. They create it.
The perpetrators created this confusion. It's a tactic. Sam seems to be a little paranoid about the whole thing. But I guess if he's telling the truth, he's definitely got the right to be. I quit investigating because they threatened me with six months prison. Who did? The BIA feds. Why? I don't know. Because everything they had at the beginning, I was trying to give to them, you know?
Because I ain't dumb, you know? I'm probably as smart as you guys, you know? Investigative-wise, you know, it's fucked up. Somebody's gonna try to plant shit here. And it ain't gonna happen long as I'm... Are you fearful of that? Yeah. Really? Yeah, I am. That's why I fucking guard my property. They ain't gonna try to fucking... I got cameras towards the lake, everything. You know, they ain't gonna plant nothing on me.
You know, that's scary shit. I'm scared as fuck, you know? I'm scared of the cops. I'm scared of the people. You know, you guys can say that too, you know? It's fucked up. Scared to the point of greeting strangers like this. What am I doing? I'm staying home, making a living. You know, I sobered up. I ain't gonna let these guys get over me. If I was still fucked up, they probably would've nailed me. They probably would've set me up somehow.
Right at that point, I was like, "Fuck that. I gotta sober up." You know? And it's been a hard road. Went through a divorce, you know? Then I got hooked on meth. Fuck that shit. That's a gateway to fucking another dimension. What's it like? You know, you could see what it's like if you don't eat for a week. Don't eat for a week. See what you see. You don't need drugs.
When you fast, they go up to you don't eat, you don't sleep, you don't do nothing. And you see these fucking visions. You don't need peyote for that either. You stay awake for four or five days, you're gonna see shit. You're gonna see that shit. It ain't the drug. I ain't kidding you. If you don't believe me, try it. I believe there's another dimension here. You know, you don't see it unless you stay awake for a long time.
And you will see it. I believe you. If you don't believe me, do that. You will see it. And your question will be answered. Ironic he's talking so much about staying awake when he fell asleep. I wanted to keep the conversation friendly before I asked anything too hard-hitting. So I let him ramble on about being high on meth. You see things, people, demons, angels, angels, bad and good.
I used to have a collection of pictures which I burned because it's scary. Here's an example. My niece took a picture of me. We was having some beers on St. Patrick's Day. She took a picture of me. I was riding with her and I had a black vest on and right here on the arm was a big fucking black devil with big fucking teeth. It was monster more of a devil because it was black. And then on this shoulder was a little tiny clown sitting.
kind of looking out the window. This is on a fucking film. You can film that shit. Why didn't you keep it? It's because back then it was scary shit. I didn't know what it was. And here's this little fucking clown sitting there looking out the fucking window. It was fucked up. I fucking burned that shit, man. I was so-- I get scared back then. I ain't gonna hang on to it. It's like evil or something, you know? But then I sober up and I think back about all this shit. That's what I think.
I hope I ain't leading you to disbelieve in my fucking ass, because everything I'm telling you is true. She came to me in my dream, Ashley, and told me to turn it over. That's the only way I can help. When I wanted to help so much, but I couldn't, you know? And she came to me in the dream and just said the only way I could help is turn it over to Jesus, through Jesus.
And that was two and a half years ago. I just remember waking up. That was what I had to do. It was in my heart. And I just, I didn't even go to work. I prayed and cried all day. And it was like, the truth will come through Jesus. I believe it. It's the only positive thing I have, you know? Turn everything over to Jesus. And I try not to worry about it.
But I pray every day for her, every day. - So did you have anything to do with her disappearance? - No. I fell asleep. That's the only wrong thing I did. And I'll probably never forgive myself. - Do you feel kind of bad about that? - Yeah. What do you think? You know? Yeah, I feel bad. I don't know what happened to her, you know? And I feel bad for Kimberly and her grandma. - So you're certain the last time you saw her was the 11th?
I'm certain, yeah. So anyone who saw her after that is... I've never seen her after that. Since I fell asleep, I have never seen her after that. I haven't. I have never seen her after that. I can't... I don't know. I don't know what happened to her after I fell asleep. I can't say. I wish I could say, "Oh yeah, I've seen her get in with these people."
But I fell asleep. Why would I? I can't lie. Not even for that, you know. That would be a God-given thing if I would have seen who she got in with, you know. I pray to Jesus for her family to have comfort, you know, so I can have comfort too. I need it too. Nobody knows my pain, you know. That girl put a place in my heart. There's just so many people believe shit.
I told you guys the truth. That's it. I got nothing to do with her. I have nothing to do with none of that. Fuck, man. All I did was party. And I made a call of concern, you know, on her behalf, because it was fucked up seeing the poster, you know?
Ready to start talking to your kids about financial literacy? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app that teaches kids and teens how to earn, save, spend wisely, and invest with your guardrails in place. Parents can send instant money transfers, automate allowance, and more, and
Plus, keep an eye on spending with real-time notifications. Join more than 6 million families building healthy financial habits together on Greenlight. Get your first month free at greenlight.com slash odyssey. That's greenlight.com slash odyssey.
Worried about letting someone else pick out the perfect avocado for your perfect impress them on the third date guacamole? Well, good thing Instacart shoppers are as picky as you are. They find ripe avocados like it's their guac on the line. They are milk expiration date detectives. They bag eggs like the 12 precious pieces of cargo they are. So let Instacart shoppers overthink your groceries so that you can overthink...
Apparently, in the coming days after Ashley vanished in his presence, missing posters for Ashley were starting to circulate. So he called Blackfeet Law Enforcement to tell them what he knew. I was with her, you know, six days. Six days I was with Ashley.
You know, we've talked a lot, you know. About what? Life. And I think she's up there happy. She's happy, I think. I don't know. It's just fucking fucked up telling you guys this shit, you know. You got to know, you know, I ain't scared to, I'm scared to let it out, but fuck it, you know. I'm alone in this, I think.
the more i know the better for everyone's sake i hope you guys believe me because i got heart and soul into what i just told there's nothing i can do i'm waiting truth will come through jesus you know i don't know what else to do there ain't nothing i can do in this moment there are tears running down sam's face he's legitimately emotional about this but the question is where is that emotion coming from
I wish I knew. I wish I could fucking know what happened. But what about V-Dog? One, what kind of name is that? Two, is he a real person? According to Sam, he is. We figured V-Dog was at Paul's. Do you know Paul or no? No. I have never seen him or anything. But I know of him and what he does. You know, I hear things.
Sam says that V-Dog is likely a man named Paul Valenzuela. He knows of him, but they're not close. One night, I come home at 2.30 in the morning. It was right after the poster. Here's Paul's pickup at the end of this road down here, sitting there. I'm like, what the fuck, man? I come home, I was drinking in town at the casino. I'm like...
And by the time I whipped around, I had that red Monte Carlo right there. By the time I whipped around, they were fucking going. And I called the BIA at the exact moment I had a number. So if V-Dog is Paul, then he's definitely someone I need to talk to. If Ashley was picked up by Paul that morning, then this literally changes everything.
Well, we got a minute. I'm going to buy that truck I've been wanting. Wait, don't you need, like, weeks to shop for a car? I don't. Carvana makes it super convenient to find exactly what I want. Hold up. You're buying a car on your phone? Isn't that more of a laptop thing? You can shop wherever you want.
I like to do my research, read reviews, compare models. Plus, Carvana has thousands of options. How'd you decide on that truck? Because I like it. Oh, that is a great reason. Go to Carvana.com to sell your car the convenient way. We all belong outside. We're drawn to nature. Whether it's the recorded sounds of the ocean we doze off to or the succulents that adorn our homes, nature makes all of our lives, well, better.
Despite all this, we often go about our busy lives removed from it.
But the outdoors is closer than we realize. With AllTrails, you can discover trails nearby and explore confidently with offline maps and on-trail navigation. Download the free app today and make the most of your summer with AllTrails. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Whether you love true crime or comedy, celebrity interviews or news, you call the shots on what's in your podcast queue. And guess what? Now you can call them on your auto insurance too with the Name Your Price tool from Progressive.
It works just the way it sounds. You tell Progressive how much you want to pay for car insurance, and they'll show you coverage options that fit your budget. Get your quote today at Progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. After my meeting with Sam, we exchanged numbers, and he agreed to keep talking to me throughout my investigation. It was time to decompress and go back to the drawing board.
There's a lot of names now, and way too many suspicious characters. I caught up with Vernon again, the guy who threw the party Ashley went to on June 5th, before she ended up at Sam's. But what he had to tell me was pretty alarming. My cousin, my cousin, come on, miss him. He's missing right now. Leo Wagner?
A search is underway on the Blackfeet Reservation for 26-year-old Leo Wagner. According to his family, Leo was last seen on Tuesday, April 27th, in the Bab St. Mary area. Since I've been investigating Ashley's disappearance, another person has vanished from the Blackfeet Reservation. Vernon's cousin, Leo Wagner. Me and Leo, we were first cousins, and you know, I took care of Leo and stuff, and
He was here every day, you know. He was almost like a person like Ashley, you know. You never see them like mad or nothing. They always had a smile on their face. You know, they were always happy, you know, just always checking in on everybody and stuff like that. And Leo and Ashley, they were both, they were almost like the same because they never had a bad day. You know, they always had smiles on their face. Leo, you know, he's my first cousin and everything. And, you know, he was here every day.
Just like Ashley's case, rumors immediately began surfacing, and none of it sounded good.
There's his stories. Supposedly he got murdered. I got a recording though. There's a couple people talking about it. Supposedly what happened. It's a video though, but you know, they're secretly recording it. It talks about how like my cousin fought these two guys for like 25 minutes or something. Supposedly he beat them both up, you know, because they were trying to pile him. And then, you know, I guess he was trying to catch his breath or something and
Vernon sent me a cell phone recording of two unknown people talking about what sounds like Leo's murder. It's actually pretty damning.
I know I can find a body.
- So I just told Uncle Steve, fuck, I couldn't drive. I bet you I'd get a horse back and bring it right to that body. He told me where he took the body. I bet you I'd go get Rob, I bet you I'd go get Rob and put him on a fucking horse and tell him to leave the fucking way. I bet you Rob would bring me right to the body. - Yeah. - And he wouldn't even know, he's so fucking now fucked up. And he wouldn't even know, like, he'd be like, "Oh, hey, I'm Perry, and I used to play dumb." He'd be like, "Oh, oh, sorry, here, here." You know, he used to play dumb 'cause he's so stupid. You know what I mean? I just gotta get him a horse back and bring him up kind of close there.
And he wouldn't even know that he told me where it's at. He'd just fucking, he'd ride right up there. Oh, he's right over there. Fucking, he'd lead, lead the way, lead the way. You know, I'd just tell him or something. Fuck, I bet you he'd ride us right up on that fucker. He wouldn't even know that, who he told about it. That's how dumb he is.
Yeah, like he told us right where he did with it. They pulled him in a slide for like two and a half miles, left his slide, everything made fucking hard as they could back to the truck or whatever and jet is still in the night.
I don't know.
You know what I mean? But like, yeah, he told me he killed him. He shot him right in the fucking head. Like, he was just gasping for air. He already beat up Doug and Jeff. For 25 minutes, whatever, he was just catching air. Just leave me alone. You know what I'm saying? Leave me alone. He didn't give him a chance. Shot him in the fucking head. So he pulled the gun on him first and Rob just shot him right over him. He pulled the gun on me first. Fuck, you told us the whole story. We didn't ask a question about it. And we didn't even know what's going on yet.
There's a serious problem in Browning, Montana, and all of Indian country. Too many missing people, and no one giving a shit about it. As of today, both Ashley Loring and Leo Wagner are still missing. If you hear anything new on Leo's case, let me know, too, because I'm kind of, like, looking into all of them at the same time now. They're kind of thinking that, um...
Ashley and Leo, they're both kind of intertwined somehow from the same person. Next week, we're going to take a short break from the investigation to focus on MMIW and all the complexities associated with this widespread issue. To understand what happened to Ashley or Leo, it's imperative to understand why this problem continues to happen. Thanks, guys, and see you next week.
Up and Vanish is a production of Tenderfoot TV. Created, hosted, and edited by Payne Lindsey. Executive producers are Payne Lindsey and Donald Albright. Original score by Makeup and Vanity Set. Our theme song is Ophelia by Ezra Rose. Sound design, mixing, and mastering by Cooper Skinner. Additional production by Cooper Skinner, Eric Quintana, and myself, Mike Rooney.
Our cover art is by Trevor Eiler. Special thanks to Grace Royer and Oren Rosenbaum at UTA. Ryan Nord, Jesse Nord, and Matthew Papa at The Nord Group, Station 16, Beck Media and Marketing, as well as Chris Cochran and the team at Cadence 13. Visit us on social media at Up and Vantage, or you can visit us at upandvantage.com where you can join in on our discussion board.
If you're enjoying Up Advantage, tell a friend, family member, or coworker about it. And don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening.
Staying connected is important in today's world. Whether it's hearing the news of a new baby in the family or calling work to let your boss know you're running late, phone service keeps you connected with your world. At AT&T, we know that some Americans face life every day without the comfort and security of having phone service. In certain areas, you may be able to reduce your phone bill with a Lifeline discount if you are in a qualifying low-income household.
Additional discounts of up to $25 may be available to those living on federally recognized tribal lands where AT&T offers Lifeline. To find out more about Lifeline and other AT&T products and services, call us at 800-288-2020 or go to att.com slash lifeline if you have access to the internet.
Lifeline is a government benefit program and willfully making false statements to obtain this benefit is punishable by fine or imprisonment and could result in termination of Lifeline service. Lifeline enrollment requires certain eligibility documentation and is non-transferable. Limited to one discount per household. AT&T services including Lifeline are not available in all areas. Other restrictions apply.