Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
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Maybe your phone's too small. Thank you so much.
You just have the best voice. Just smooth. Very good. I'm just as proud as I can be of you, honey. So what else is going on with you? Well, actually, I had a question for you, actually. Okay. Remember back in Up and Vanish season one where we did that contest where we gave away your cowboy cookies? Yeah. Yeah.
I think I did like a contest. If you rate and review the podcast, I'm going to pick one winner to receive your cowboy cookies. And I was thinking about maybe bringing that back. Yeah, I'd be happy to make them anytime you want me to. Okay. I'm holding a contest for my grandma's famous cowboy cookies. All you have to do is rate and review Up and Vanished on Apple Podcasts. I'm picking one lucky winner to get a big old batch of my grandma's cowboy cookies. Thanks guys for your support. And I hope you enjoy the show.
From Tinderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is Up and Vanished. I'm your host, Payne Lindsey. People kept telling me that Big Al knows something and that we need to talk to Big Al. All I kept hearing was something about Big Al. Big Al. That was the last tip that I kept getting.
I thought that maybe that Big Al knew something about Ashley. What's Big Al's real name? His name's Alvin. Dog taking gun. A short time after I got home from the funeral, they found Big Al's torso. He was murdered and they found his torso. They said that it was a Madsen Boys that was a part of Big Al's murder. They said it was a Madsen Boys.
On March 3rd, 2020, Blackfeet law enforcement was called to a clearing near Cutbank Creek on the Blackfeet Indian Reservation. Down a two-track spur road, officers noticed what appeared to be a pile of trash. Underneath two pieces of plywood, they found the body of an adult male. His head and hands had been removed, and they've never been located. These are excerpts from the many police documents pertaining to Big Al's murder. They say the following:
In the early morning hours of March 10th, Jason Mattson called Blackfeet Law Enforcement Dispatch and stated he had a confession to make. He then confessed to murdering the victim. When asked for clarification, he provided the person's full name and said that he killed him. Mattson stated that he was at a family member's home and was armed with a gun and a knife. He initially agreed to exit the home unarmed to speak with law enforcement, but a short time later he called back to report that he had taken a family member hostage.
As law enforcement converged on the house, Matson spoke eerily of killing his hostage. And when challenged by the dispatcher that he didn't really want to kill the family member, he said, "Yes, I do." Matson then told the dispatcher, "I like to kill." In the background of the call, the family members heard crying, begging to be released and asking the dispatcher to please send somebody.
After a four-hour standoff, the victim, who's unnamed in these documents, managed to escape the room she was being held hostage in as Mattson stabbed the doorframe with his knife. Shortly thereafter, he surrendered and was taken into custody. Jason Mattson ultimately pled guilty to Big Al's murder and the kidnapping, too. He's currently serving 50 years in prison. Mr. Mattson is clearly not a good dude. He's a murderer who claimed he enjoys the act of killing. But did he kill Ashley Loring?
I'm not so sure. According to Kimberly, Mattson had a violent encounter with Ashley many years prior. At one time, they tried to kill Ashley. They ran away into the trees and they were shooting at them. They shot at them and the bullet went through this guy's neck. They were trying to kill them. I did some more digging and found some documents that describe this incident.
It says: "Around midday on June 10th, 2013, Jerry and Jason Mattson arrived at Chris Gobert's house. Jerry Mattson and Chris Gobert were lifelong friends. Jason is Jerry's younger brother. After spending some time at Gobert's house, he went for a drive with the Mattsons. And during that drive, two girls joined the group. Side note here, their names are not mentioned, but I believe that one of these girls was Ashley.
Jason Mattson purchased alcohol and the group went out to a spot between Browning and East Glacier to drink and swim. At some point, one of the girls dropped the bottle of alcohol on the river, which started a fight between her and the other girl. Gobert tried to break up the fight but was unsuccessful. His efforts then led to a fight between him and both Mattson brothers. Jason retrieved a pistol from his vehicle. Jason came up behind him. Gobert turned his head and Jason fired the gun, shooting him in the side of the neck.
Gobert and one of the girls ran and sought cover in the trees. Jason continued to shoot, emptying the pistol. Gobert ultimately survived his neck injury, and both girls were unharmed in the shooting. Matson pled guilty to all subsequent charges and was sentenced to 48 months in prison. Again, not a good guy. But did he kill Ashley in June of 2017? In my opinion, I don't think so.
Though he is in fact a convicted murderer, there's no real evidence to support the fact the Mattsons actually knew Ashley beyond this incident. Ashley disappeared four years later. There's also no real motive. But more importantly, nothing that suggests the Mattsons were anywhere near Ashley in June of 2017. It's frustrating, but for now, I'm going to put a big question mark on the Mattson boys. It's time now to move on to a lead that's a little more tangible.
We were told that she was at this house and there was this video on Facebook. It was a party. She was sitting at a party. She was sitting there on a couch and that was the last thing that they seen her. Do you know who posted that video? Yeah, his name was Mario. He posted it. It's gone. Where did it go? They took it off. Why did you delete it?
Because everybody just all over Facebook at that time, you know, everybody was like asking about Ashley was ad and... I did a deep dive into Ashley's Facebook, scanning through different friends and just straight up adding random people to be honest. After a few days of doing that, I stumbled upon a guy named Vernon and we struck up a conversation in chat. Out of what seemed like complete dumb luck, it turns out this party Kimberly's talking about took place at his house. I called Vernon and we talked for about an hour or so.
You know, there's so many rumors because Browning's such a small community. When something happens, one story will come out and pretty soon people like will switch the story up. Ashley, you know, she was so kind and, you know, not a mean hair on her body. How my name kind of got brought into it is one night, there must have been about maybe 10 of us here, 10 of my friends and then Ashley was here. So I was sitting around my table and then
My cousin was like recording us. He was having a good time, you know, just laughing around and recorded us while we're sitting around a table and then he posted it on Facebook. That's how my name kind of got brought into it. When he messaged me, you know, I didn't hesitate to call you or anything or like, "Come here, I'm willing to help Ashley's family to get to know the truth, you know, what really did happen." My cousin, his name's Mario.
We rented an RV and drove to Browning. There's a lot of random tourists in the area visiting Glacier National Park, so I figured we could blend right in.
The plan was to interview Vernon, and hopefully Mario too. You said Mario Cardenas is your cousin? Yeah. Is he around here? He lives in Star School. Where's that? About maybe seven miles, just right out of town. Is it worth going to Mario's house? That's... Would he be there? Yeah, he'd be there. Let's do it then. Do you know the address? Turn around, get back on this road, and then... Star School? Yeah.
Mario lives just a few miles out of town, so he drove to his house with Vernon. Yeah, thanks for meeting with me, man. I've been talking to Vernon. Kimberly mentioned that there was this video posted on Facebook at some point. Got people interested because it might be one of the last places that she was seen. Um, just a video that I posted. I think it was playing pool? Yeah. Sitting around the table drinking. Where was it at? It was at my house. Is that Vernon's?
You just gotta just like, tell them like what do you remember from that day on until, well, Ashley. When's the last time you saw Ashley? That night actually. Do you still have the video? Um, if it's on my Facebook, maybe. Did you ever delete it or no? Um, I don't think so. All they're doing is just trying to, you know, help Kimberly, you know, help, you know, track down Ashley and
Mario pulled his phone out and tried searching for the video. It's in moments like these that I find myself hyper-analyzing things, monitoring every expression on their faces.
It's so easy to convince yourself that someone has something to do with it, if you're not careful. "I can't find the video." "Okay. But this is the same night?" "That's that same night, yep. June 5th, 2017." Mario couldn't find the video, but there was a picture from the party. However, Ashley was not in it. "Did you ever talk to Ashley on Facebook?" "No." "Never?" I asked Vernon the same question. "Did you?" "Yeah." "Could you pull up your last messages to see what the date was?"
Well, me, I usually don't really save my messages because usually after I message someone, I pretty much just delete them. If there was a way I could pull them up, you know, I would. Yeah, like, because usually, like, people, like, have on their Facebook, or, like, on their messengers, like, a long list of messages and everything that I just kind of, you know, after, like, somebody messaged me or whatever, you know, about a day or so, I'll just delete them or whatever, you know, because...
Mario let me borrow his phone.
And I awkwardly thumbed through it in front of them. No video from the party. What you'd see, there'd be like a handful of us and you'd see like a little green pool table. Did you have the same phone back then? No. No, okay. It's none of these? No. Okay, I think that's all the videos on here. So what have the rumors been around town? There's a brownie. You can tell the truth. It'll turn into about eight different lies. It just happens. Why do you think that is? It's the Rez. Ha ha.
Did you ever see Ashley after June 5th? No. What do you think happened after that? I have no idea. Who do you think would want to kill Ashley? I wouldn't know. I never knew the girl. Make this new school year an opportunity for your kids to learn important life skills with Greenlight. Greenlight is a debit card and money app for families where kids can learn how to save, invest, and spend wisely while parents keep an eye on kids' money habits. Greenlight is a great way to learn more about your kids' money.
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Well, Mario and Vernon weren't much help. They confirmed that Ashley was indeed there at the party, but both claim they have no idea where she went afterwards. So far, this was yet another dead end. As with a lot of these cases, there's a lot of rumors that fly who these people were with, where they were last seen. This is Shannon Newth, a local reporter and news anchor in Great Falls, Montana. She's covered Ashley's case since the very beginning.
I just think how many cases like this don't get answers, how many families don't get answers, how many people never know what happened. So for Ashley's case, to have some sense of closure, some sense of justice, would be a mix of excitement, relief, grief, and hope. Hope that there's more answers that can be found for other families. Hope that the family's efforts are making a difference for the future.
When you follow a case for this long and you see a family so committed and dedicated to not only finding justice and peace for them, but for other people and for other families, what it would be like to be able to say there's an answer for her case or this many years later someone's been arrested or someone came forward and said something. How invigorating that would be for the family's efforts.
When Ashley first went missing, it was somewhat of your generic missing persons story that will run sometimes. It's a graphic on the screen with their picture, height, weight, basic description, last place they were seen, who to call if you know anything. As the case progressed, I do remember it seemed odd because it was hard to get a definitive answer on which date she was seen last and where she was seen last and by who.
There's multiple stories of, you know, when the family saw her last, when other people saw her last, who dropped her off where, was she picked up? Was somebody else potentially involved? Was she with this person? Was she at this party? I remember when those details started coming out, thinking that was a little odd because we couldn't identify specifically a last place or date that she was seen or heard from. And to my knowledge, I'm not sure that's ever really been cleared up. It still seems like a bit of a gray area.
After a number of years of the case, I wanted to go back and look at stories, watch stories that we had done, look at information. To me, it does not seem like she just walked off going back and looking at various interviews. I think there are a lot of gray areas, gaps in time, and people who probably know things who aren't saying them. There are people who know more than what's being said.
Human trafficking, of course, is definitely an issue. And in Montana, we see that. You see that happening along the High Line there in northern Montana. That's also an area where meth, drugs, things like that also get trafficked. Meth is a very real issue in Montana. I don't think you can narrow it down or say it's just this or just this. I think it's a combination.
I do know that when we have events in Great Falls, say the fair comes through or big events or conventions, I do know our Internet Crimes Against Children Task Force in town is ready for that and they prepare for that because young girls are being trafficked or solicited.
When big events like that come to town, we've had many times where that Internet Crimes Against Children's Task Force is able to catch predators, catch people who are soliciting young women online, underage girls being solicited for sex. This many years later, still really no trace. Why? Not nothing. There has to be something. There has to be some clue, some piece of evidence, something.
How can someone just absolutely vanish and not have any inkling as to why or what happened? I think that as humans, we'd like to think that we're not capable of terrible things or that we know people. I think that unfortunately, people are capable of far more evil things than we think possible.
We want to think that people aren't capable of something evil or that we really know someone or we see them smile at us walking down the street and we think, "Oh, they're a nice person." But unfortunately, I think there's far more layers in their personalities than what we see. People can do far worse than what we'd like to believe they can. And especially if you can pull off either looking in grief or like you care or that you're someone who can be liked and trusted,
who's going to suspect you? It does wear on you as a journalist, as a human. When you get up to report the news, you are being as objective as you possibly can. You're reporting the facts, you're telling somebody's story, but you're also a human. That gets lost a lot of times in today's world of how we think about media. These are still humans that are reporting. These are still humans and these humans have feelings about these cases as well and we can be affected by these cases.
You also learn kind of when to switch on and switch off your brain or your heart in some sense so you can continue to report on these cases without it taking too much of a mental or emotional toll. I want this family to also have answers. I want to make sure we're getting the correct facts and not just perpetuating rumors. So it does take a toll on you because this is, I live here too and this is a community that I care about too.
I think the way that you're able to deep dive into cases, how you're able to talk to people is different than what we're able to do as the news. People may open up to you in a different way or you might be able to get different answers or hear different stories. I'm hopeful that that means something will happen in this case, some type of movement or momentum. Ideally, an answer.
But I think especially because of Kimberly's determination and perseverance and her willingness to not let this go, there's got to be something that comes out of that.
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The Bureau of Indian Affairs is now offering a $5,000 reward for information
Over the years, a reward for information into Ashley's disappearance has slowly grown. It's currently sitting at 15,000.
But to move the needle in this case, it's going to need to be more than that. I think we're good. Mike, do you want to help her do the last part of this? Is your camera off? Can you turn it on so we can see the recording device? Oh, yeah. I think I pressed the side button. Cool. Yeah, we're good. You can just hit the stop button on the left. Oh, that was an hour? Yeah, right? Wow. Yeah. Yeah, you can hit the stop button. Other one? Right there. Boop.
You're good. All right. Would you be able to put up the reward for Ashley? Like to actually put up a reward? Yeah, for sure. Absolutely. I mean, I'm sorry. I'm just very moved by that. Do you want to help find Ashley? If we just keep pushing and try different things, then something's bound to happen. Just is. Yeah.
I believe that too. Thank you so much. You guys, thank you so much. Sorry, I'm just getting really emotional. No, it's okay. That's just my gratitude. Wow, what a crazy day.
It's been more than four years since Ashley Loring Heavy Runner disappeared from the Blackfeet Reservation. Multiple rewards have been offered for information about Ashley. Walks have been organized to bring awareness. Political leaders have even spoken about the situation. Thanks to the efforts of Ashley's sister, Kimberly, and others, Ashley has in many ways become the first
face of the missing and murdered indigenous persons movement, pushing the issue more into the national spotlight. And now Ashley's case is the focus of an investigative podcast called Up and Vanished. We talked about rewards have been offered in the past. You're coming forward with a very large reward. Tell us about that and why did you want to be part of offering a reward?
I mean, $50,000 is a lot of money. That can change your life. If you're somebody who knows something, somebody who had a small part in it, whatever it is, you know, you can get out of town. You can start over anew. You can maybe cut a deal with law enforcement. $50,000 can change your life. If you have information that leads to an arrest for Ashley's murder, $50,000 can be yours. You can also remain anonymous.
Shortly after Ashley went missing, Ashley's cousin, Lissa Loring, received a disturbing message on Facebook. It was from a girl named Rosie, a local resident here in Browning. And her message said simply, quote, I had part in her murder. She messaged us and she told us she was involved with Ashley's murder. She said that her Facebook was hacked and she didn't do anything. She claimed that she was hacked, but we talked to her right after that.
After doing a little poking around, I learned that Rosie is in fact Vernon's ex-girlfriend, the guy who threw the party Ashley went to. I called Vernon in hopes of getting in touch with Rosie myself. She had said one time that I had a part in her murder. I'd love to talk to her, yeah.
Maybe it was my dumb luck again. But Rosie was literally right there with Vernon at the time I called him. They had hacked my Facebook and posed as me. Someone borrowed my phone, maybe. I'm not sure exactly who, but... Who do you think would try to hack your Facebook to do that? I'm not sure exactly. I mean, it really doesn't matter because, you know, I know my truth, you know. I don't, you know...
Rosie's claims that her Facebook was hacked are just flat out strange. But then again, if Rosie was involved, why would she send a message like that?
The whole thing is confusing as hell to me, and I wasn't fully satisfied with my conversation with her about it. Maybe someone used her phone without her knowing. Even still, if this happened to me, I feel like I would definitely be getting to the bottom of it. There's no way that she could have been hacked or somebody had her phone because we talked to her the same exact moment that she sent it. She needs to get her story right because we spoke to her on the phone. It was not through texting.
Can her voice and her body be hacked as well? My phone call with Rosie just wasn't enough. And I couldn't just leave it open-ended like everything else in this case. So I reached out to Rosie and asked if we could meet in person. She agreed. And Vernon came too. Hello. Hello. You could squeeze over here. This is the screenshot. I don't recall this conversation at all.
Oh yeah, I've never seen this and like I'm really wasn't, you know, understanding any of it. What was it like whenever this happened and they were kind of being a little... Yeah. Like I just, you know, caused me to hang my head and, you know, just a lot of hurt, you know what I mean? Because like, you know who I am? I'm a full-hearted person, you know what I mean? I'm about the people and I'm, you know...
Like people feeling like shit around me and they leave leaving happy if they bat and they're mad when they around me They leave like yeah, you're working. I'm not even mad anymore. You know, so it hurt you more than anything It's clearly like not a good joke if someone's playing a joke. I mean if they did I forgive them, you know I do you know if they you know, they were doing a bad prank. I forgive them, you know, it's okay You know what? It happens to the best of us, you know
And if it's not the worst of us. For all the people who saw this Facebook thing and maybe knew about this, what would you want to say to them if they heard this? If you want information, you know, they have these light detectors. You know, you can hook me up all you want, you know, and I will tell you. That's what he's saying, like, you know, for people to hear about people that have seen this. What's your message going to be, you know? What's your message going to be to everybody that is going to hear this? What would you want them to know?
Yeah, everyone's entitled to their own opinion and their own thoughts. You know, everyone is. And it does not dictate who you are or, you know, the truth, you know, of their own truth. You know, people be accusing me and I have no clue what's going on. I forgive them, you know what I mean? I don't blame them for wanting to blame people because...
There's just someone out there that, you know, had done it. And I do the best of my ability to find justice for these people. Doesn't matter if it was just for Ashley or for others, you know, before her or after. I don't blame them if they try to find someone to point their finger at. Everyone does that when they lose someone, you know. And I know how that feels, you know, to blame someone. And I do, you know, I do understand where they're coming from because, you know, if I was in their shoes...
I would be blaming anybody I can. How do you think it happened? Anyone asks me to use my phone, I say no and then I'm like, I just let him use it. All these ugly people that are being ugly to us, to their own people. It's because you're not Blackfeet, you're our people. You are human, you're alive, and you're serving a purpose in this life. What I don't understand is why I've been brought up.
Coming this season on Up and Vanished. To my understanding, he was one of the last ones to see her alive. If I'd have seen a gun come out, I'd have shot you. There was stories of these girls that would leave his house and they would have to swim out in the lake and get away from them. He has a secret, like the secret room in his house. He put me in there, she said. Oh yeah, I see him. I see him.
Up and Vanish is a production of Tenderfoot TV. Created, hosted, and edited by Payne Lindsey. Executive producers are Payne Lindsey and Donald Albright. Original score by Makeup and Vanity Set. Our theme song is Ophelia by Ezra Rose. Sound design, mixing, and mastering by Cooper Skinner. Additional production by Cooper Skinner, Eric Quintana, and myself, Mike Rooney.
Our cover art is by Trevor Eiler. Special thanks to Grace Royer and Oren Rosenbaum at UTA. Ryan Nord, Jesse Nord, and Matthew Papa at The Nord Group, Station 16, Beck Media and Marketing, as well as Chris Cochran and the team at Cadence 13. Visit us on social media at Up and Vantage, or you can visit us at upandvantage.com where you can join in on our discussion board.
If you're enjoying Up and Vintage, tell a friend, family member, or coworker about it. And don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening.
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