S2E12: Muddy Waters
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This is Crystal's aunt, Jennifer. The last time I talked to her.

We kind of cut the conversation short because some of her friends were coming over. Or actually, they were knocking on the door. She just said she loves me and we'll talk later. I mean, we were planning for her to come out here with Akasha for a visit. And then I see all this stuff all over the papers. You know, I contacted the police. It's just, when I spoke to the police originally, it's just,

I don't think that they realized what they were dealing with. You know, they were so interested in getting her belongings out of her apartment. And I asked them, where's her phone? Where's her computer? They're like, it's there at the apartment. And I'm like, why don't you have it? I just feel like I just thought she wandered off or something. And I know she didn't. I know it in my heart.

And my niece is the type of person, like if somebody knocked on her door and said, "Hey, you know, want to come over for dinner or something?" She would have just, you know, left with them. Like she wouldn't have thought anything of it. And that's where I'm like, somebody, somebody out there, they know. You know, she was a trusting person. And you know, you hear all these things. And before then, you know, she said something happened to her.

And I told her she needs to call the police and she felt like, you know, like she wouldn't have any evidence because she let too much time pass. She believed it was more than one person, but she didn't know. You know, everybody talks about catfish and everything. Not just him. I mean, there was another guy involved. Like somebody wrecked her car and I think she took a lawsuit out on him.

I don't think he was very happy about the situation. And there's somebody else named Matthew. I don't know who Matthew is, but like I said, even the last time I talked to her, she was... You know, some people were coming over. And I mean, everybody was her friend. Her so-called friends. You know, you watch these movies and...

And you see people that were kidnapped and held hostage for like years. When that becomes your only hope, it's no hope at all. I just, I mean, I know she's not here anymore. I know that. And I don't know if, you know, we'll ever find out what really happened. I just know if whoever did something to her, they'll be tormented on the inside.

Even if, you know, they never come to justice. From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is Up and Vanished. I'm your host, Payne Lindsey. Crystal was like an acquaintance to me. I knew her through friends and stuff. And definitely, definitely a cool chick. I was with her, I don't know if it was a few days or a few weeks before she ended up going missing. So it kind of worded me out with that whole situation then.

Part of the reason he's taking me so long to get back to you was because I couldn't remember this guy's name.

And once you came out with the podcast and stuff, my friend told me, I looked at it and I saw one of your episodes was named Catfish. I was like, holy crap, that's that guy. Anyways, I'm inside this guy's house and asked him if I can use the restroom. He's like, yeah. And so I go to the restroom and look down on the ground and there's just like a bag of like drugs, like just sitting on the ground on the restroom floor.

And I was like, what the heck, man? Where the hell am I? And so I pick up that bag of, I'm assuming it says drugs, looks like drugs. And I walk back out there and I'm like, hey, dude, this was just kind of like sitting on your bathroom floor there. And he was like, oh, my God, thank you. Thank you so much. He was all stoked that, like, I didn't steal it. And I was like, yeah, so I'm going to go.

And she's like, yeah, yeah, I'm fine. I think Nate's going to come pick me up or something like that. And I was like, all right, I'm out of here. Because that whole place was weird. The whole situation was weird. Kind of sketched me out. So I left.

And then a couple days later, I think it was, I don't remember exactly how long later it was, I saw Crystal at the brewery or in town somewhere. And I was like, hey, what's going on, Crystal? And she was like, dude, oh my God, that night that you brought me there, this guy drugged me and hid my phone from me.

And like, wouldn't let me leave. And it was this whole crazy ordeal, blah, blah, blah. And like, I think she said Nate had to come pick her up or something like that. And I was like, holy crap, dude. Like, do not go over there again. That is sketchy. That's why I left. You know, I would definitely not go back over there. That's...

whole situation from what I experienced with her was messed up and from what you told me you know with someone hiding your phone or drugging you and or whatever any of that stuff was just weird and my impression of the guy like I thought he was like like a tweaker or like a schizophrenic or like something like that just like really someone you don't want to hang around with you know the town in and of itself is beautiful it's just

There's a lot of trust fund kids and a lot of trust fund kids with trust fund kids. And so there's an abundance of meth and abundance of people that have no jobs and nothing to do. The level of sadistic behavior that I've seen from certain people there is

I don't know, dude. I'd call the sheriff's department and be like, listen, I'm going to end up like that girl. And I'm going to go missing. And no one's going to know what happened. And everyone's going to just pretend like it's not a big deal. So when I lived there, I was dating someone who was ultimately not a safe person. When I first moved back to Crestone with my ex, he would always mention Catfish and how much I should get together with him.

I have had an interesting relationship with him. He's always constantly trying to marry me. He'll call me like every three months, ask me to marry him. I think he uses it to tell his parents that he's engaged to me so they'll think there's some sort of stability in his life.

I came over to type on him one day because I know he's kind of been out there. I was off work early, went over there, and he asked to transfer like three grand into my PayPal account, right? And then have it put into my bank account because he was always trying to get money from his parents, which he still is. And he's like, I'll give you 300 bucks for it. I'm like, sure. But then he started freaking out on me because it wasn't clearing fast enough.

Because it was a Friday and it wouldn't go through until like Monday. And so I went over there on Saturday. He had me call PayPal in front of him. He had me call the bank in front of him who confirmed that it hadn't cleared in my account yet. And I was like, dude, I can't withdraw because I don't have it there. So he has this like upstairs area. It's like a little locked. So I was trapped there. And he had a gun.

Yeah, he pulled the gun out. I mean, I didn't think he was going to shoot me. He was just trying to, like, scare me.

He had told me that he had drugged people multiple times.

You need to call me back. You think that I threatened you before? I wanted to marry you and love you forever. The things you've done are called wire fraud. Do you know what it's called when you con someone to steal from them? Do you know what that's called? I'll let you ask your attorney. Yeah, I'm able to threaten someone if I want to right now, but I'm not. Maybe I'm close, though. Maybe you should call me. Want to get dosed?

I had heard the term dosing before. I talked to a Crestone local who's had his own experiences involving dosing. A dose is like a hit, you know what I'm saying? But getting dosed is like when someone gives you way too much acid. Catfish is crazy. Like I said, I've hung out with him a couple of occasions and the dude is just out there, bro. Dude, first of all, this guy gets crystal LSD. Not paper hits, like you know what vials are, right? You're just in a vial of acid.

Uh, no, what's that? Real L. LSD, we call it L. You know, you get your crystal, and then you mix it with water, and you shake the shit out of it. But, you know, that's how you get to, like, that liquid point, and then that goes on paper. Or you can just drip it from the dropper into your mouth, you know, from, like, a little vial. Or, you know, I mean, if you're crazy, you could eat the crystal, which would probably fry your fucking brain forever. He dosed my best friend so hard, he super-dosed him.

Like you left three in a bottle and my buddy took them and ate all three. It can, you know, make you go bonkers and shit. You know, it depends on the strength of the mind of the person. One of his friends, who we've called Jack on the podcast, was allegedly dosed a few years ago. The reason? Retribution, bro. Like, dude, someone was stealing his guanapins, bro. They're like Xanax, you know, they're a benzo. I mean, literally left them out on purpose so whoever was taking them would take them.

In the past several months, there's been numerous stories flying around Crestone.

involving Catfish cleaning his house sometime shortly after Crystal went missing. There's nothing wrong with cleaning your house, but according to those close to Catfish, he never cleaned his house. So the question they're asking is why then? So he told me himself that when they came to investigate him, that he had nothing to do with it, that she had been over there, that, you know, he had done a bunch of bad things the night before or something like that, that she disappeared.

Did he tell you that? Yeah, he laughed about it.

Why would you have it scrubbed clean if you had nothing to do with it? Okay, you can do this. I know, I know. Carvana makes it so convenient to sell your car. It's just hard to let go. My car and I have been through so much together. But look, you already have a great offer from Carvana. That was fast. Well, I know my license plate and VIN by heart, and those questions were easy. You're almost there. Now to just accept the offer and schedule a pickup or drop

off. How'd you do it? How are you so strong in letting go of your car? Well, I already made up my mind and Carvana is so easy. Yeah, true. And sold. Go to Carvana.com to sell your car the convenient way. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Whether

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Get your quote today at Progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. You have to understand that Catfish has the ability to hack people's accounts. In fact, he probably knows that you and I are talking right now or knows that you and I have been talking. That's another thing that makes me think that I'm in danger. He's been on my Facebook. He's hacked my Facebook knowingly.

I've always been told that Catfish was good with computers. So you're pretty good with computers, right? No, not really at all. I'm a photographer and I've lost all my computers and everything I've owned.

But as time went on, more and more stories began to surface. Here's the Crestone boyfriend. — He's pretty good with computers. He talked into Brian on the count and tried to get a hold of me previously. I think Brian left his message or something. He got a hold of it. He was using it to, like, get a hold of people and shit. And he was, like, pulling up records of people one day, whatever they were, some fucking records and stuff, and, like, trying to say that he was, like, a criminal informant. It was weird.

He was, Brian was telling me. This was before Chris went, that's the secret. He came up to me specifically asking if me and Chris were asking if we'd gotten weird messages from him, but it wasn't him, that it was Scott Fish.

His online storage thing. I guess he's looking for the screenshots? Or maybe some downloaded version of the conversation?

Catfish says that Dreddy Brian sent him a message on Facebook in which he confessed to killing Crystal. Then Catfish says he blocked him and eventually turned over that message to the CBI. But now he can't find it. Maybe it's true. But it's just not that complicated. If you don't want to give it to me, that's fine. Just say that. But to keep putting it off with new excuses just sounds weird. So I tried something.

I made a fake Facebook account, and I started a conversation between my fake Facebook and my real Facebook. Then I blocked the account, just like Catfish blocked Brian. And as an extra measure, I logged back into the fake Facebook and deleted the message I sent, something Brian may have done after sending it. Even with the message deleted and his account blocked, I could still see it. I could search it. Unless Catfish permanently deleted the conversation entirely, which would be kind of odd to do, it should still be there right now.

Right there in his Facebook Messenger. It's not that complicated. For the past couple years, this person has been living in fear of catfish.

And not long after I started talking to her, she began to fear that her phone and her Facebook had been hacked. She told me that a few years ago, she was held against her will at gunpoint in Catfish's house. Over the last several years, she's had some strange experiences involving her phone, her Facebook, and Catfish. According to her, she's had text messages sent from her cell phone that she didn't write, containing strange cryptic-sounding nonsense.

I'm no expert on this, but I've seen this kind of typing before. The way he writes is fucked up. Like, it's weird. It's like all in pieces almost. It's hard to explain. Like, it's like you're talking to somebody with speech impediment with everything kind of flipped around and shit. I don't know. It's weird. Like, it's hard to understand. He writes like he talks in person. He's like, he's very, like, he talks to himself and shit. I don't know. He's weird.

She also received dozens of voicemails from unknown numbers and the voice on the other line. I'm still missing my fucking pills. Who did you bring over and what is his name? You have some of the dumbest fucking logic in the world, woman. And countless text messages from random phone numbers were sent to her personally. All of them riddled with familiar context, talking about the FBI, extortion, money, and wire fraud.

A vast majority of these messages were extremely explicit and vulgar. I'm uncomfortable even sharing it.

As you can probably imagine, the last two years have been extremely hard on Crystal's family. Along with getting answers about her disappearance, their main concern has been Kasia and what this ultimately means for her future. Kasia is living with her loving father Eli and his family in Los Angeles. She has a wonderful and supportive network of people to guide her, but still, she's been dealt a difficult hand at a very young age. As her family has expressed to me before, nothing can truly replace her mother. She misses her.

and is starting to feel the impact of her absence. One of the many consequences of Crystal's disappearance is that Kasia is now financially supported by only one parent. The team at Tenderfoot TV has set up a GoFundMe for Kasia, and we've kicked it off with a donation of our own.

We've gotten to know a lot about Kasha and her family, and our hope is that something positive can come from this tragedy. If you'd like to join us in offering some support for Kasha's future, you can do so by going to 4kasha.com and donate. That's 4kasha.com, F-O-R-K-A-S-H-A dot com. Any donation at all is welcome and appreciated, and all the proceeds will go directly into a trust for Kasha.

She'll call via like Facebook video or whatever from her dad's phone and typically it started off saying, "Can you show me a picture of my mom?" She just wants to talk and she wants to have that connection because like we're extremely connected, like we're all extremely close. Most of the time in

And when she's older, she'll probably be mad at me for saying this, but we just put the phone down and listen to her talk and like chime in every once in a while because she just... Sometimes she'll put the phone down and go do things. Yeah, like she'll just go do something else. And you just sit there and wait for her to come back. Yeah, and you just kind of leave it there and hope your phone bill doesn't go up, but it's worth it. One time I watched her play basketball for like half an hour and...

She told me she taught you how to play basketball. Oh, she taught, yeah. Yeah, she taught you. Yeah. Yeah, she... Over video. Yeah, mm-hmm. So I'm really good now. I've been practicing a lot. Yeah? Yeah. Well, that's how you get better. Mm-hmm. Almost! Oh, that was so close. You're almost there.

She was five years old on March 17th. Just started kindergarten in August. She had never gone to preschool, so most of the kids that have gone since they were three or four are already reading or knowing their letters and all that. So when she started she was a little bit behind, they said. Now she's writing words and is apparently very good at math, according to Eli. So it's been a real good experience.

She generally just she enjoys everything she's very curious so she just wants to know about everything and she wants you to play with her and she will tell you what you're gonna play and how you're gonna play it but She's just she's fun. She's really fun. Never annoying. It's always I don't know what it is some kids You know, it can get to be oh too much, but with her it's never enough.

Okay, I take that back. Sometimes it's enough, but not usually. When it's almost midnight, tell me another story and you've gone through 15 stories already and you have to make them up. And you can tell she's not tired, so there's no stopping. Just one more, Grandma. Just one more. I'll rub your back. She said that once. She's a sweetheart. And you gotta make up, you know, the...

forest with the spooky forest. Oh, she loved with her... Yeah. The spooky forest. And right now her favorite... I have this on. Her favorite movie is the Ghostbusters. But not the original, right? I know. And there's something weird and it don't look good. Who can call? Ghostbusters!

She loves spooky. She loves like haunting ghosts and spooky. Oh, last time we Facetimed she wanted to tell me about ghosts and things like that. So she definitely, she's tapped into like the spooky spirituality as well as like the mainstream spooky like ghosts kind of thing.

I'm so curious to know what she's gonna be like when she's older. I think she'll be rebellious like Crystal, but she's got Crystal to guide her, so Crystal will tell her what's up when she's acting up. And honestly, I think if anything, she might become some kind of musician, or at least she'll

practice music in her life. She has Crystal's voice. I think she'll grow into her voice as Crystal's voice because Crystal is amazing. And Eli and his roots with the Native American is definitely...

She's going to develop her own very interesting little mix and I could totally see her being like the little 13 year old with a garage band and you know doing the half tribal half yeah yeah yeahs kind of thing.

And I think it's gonna totally work because she makes it work because she's 100% confident in herself like all the time basically. And if she's not, she doesn't show it. I've actually memorized some of those strange lyrics because they're just too cute and it's just, it's adorable and some are about me so I'm flattered. ♪ My name, I love my name ♪ ♪ The sweetest thing in the whole wide world ♪ ♪ I am a ♪

What is something you hope from a GoFundMe for Kasia? What would be like a hope of yours? Mine would be that she has a more stable, I guess normal in quotes, but a more stable living environment where she feels safe and she knows it's home, not moving from place to place. Have her own space, have her own bedroom, have...

I think it's really important to have a little space that's yours that she can keep her things and decorate and

Because she's got so many fun things and you know like drawings and all kinds of stuff and I think it's really important for her especially as a little artistic creative child to have somewhere to put those things obviously, you know, we want her to be able to work and you know achieve all the things that You know a lot of people do but she's been dealt a lot of you know crappy things at a young age and

Just make sure that she, like my mom said, she feels safe. Well, to have that stability, because that's one thing Crystal never had, was a home of their own. You know, her mom, whoever she was living with, it was always one place to another, one group home, one aunt, one whatever. But to give her that continuity and stability, I think would help her a lot.

I just, I really want Akasha to have all those things and opportunity that both Crystal and I lacked. And I know Crystal lacked a lot of things. Not necessarily things, but like just security in life. Yeah, definitely like education for sure. Like I want to make sure she has a stable home. I think anybody that's in poverty has that issue is just having a stable home.

Just want her to have, like, a feeling that she's not in the wind ever, ever, ever in her life. Like Crystal. Well, the landlord was pretty clear in that she said Crystal indicated that she'd been drugged and raped and that she was considering going to authorities to tell them about these people. So that is a legitimate potential motive to kill her.

At the same time, when you ask about why prosecutors and police don't actively pursue sexual assaults, statistically they don't. The Denver Police Department, of the felony sexual assault rapes, of all the cases that they take to the district attorney's office, eight in ten are thrown in the trash. Never prosecuted. They don't file charges. They don't even try. They're really tough cases to make in front of a jury.

DAs have learned that it's a waste of time and money to prosecute most sexual assaults. And I think it's horrific. And the Me Too movement is going to move the needle on that. But statistically, the reality is district attorneys don't try to charge people with rape.

It's something that they lose at all the time. They try, push it, they use a lot of resources, they think they have the right case, they get in front of a jury, the person gets acquitted. Then they've put this victim through a horrific cross-examination, usually calling her everything in the book, from a slut to ask her what she's wearing or why she had a drink with some guy. And that defense tactic, though appalling, has worked, historically worked.

So it doesn't surprise me that no one investigates claims of sexual assault, especially if they're date rapes or familial. It's sad, but it's just the truth. Chris Halsney's heard my calls with Catfish from episode nine. There were times where it just seemed like he didn't seem to have the right train of thought. And there were other times he was right on the money. He knew what was going on. Then he'd go down some path that didn't even do with anything.

People who are potential suspects or people of interest to the police, the more they talk, the more someone might hear something that makes sense. Maybe they're talking because they want to make sure that everybody knows they're innocent. Maybe they're talking so that they can throw blame on somebody else when it's really them. You don't know until the end. Foolish, foolish was I

♪ Damn my foolish eyes ♪ ♪ Is that man's lessons at a price ♪ ♪ Oh sweet price ♪ ♪ My sweet soul everlasting ♪ ♪ A very own eternal life ♪

I've been advised by six attorneys today not to tell you this. I didn't even plan on calling you today. Let me catch my breath here. Jerry Garcia Band. They had a friend named Catfish John.

They wrote a song about it. When he passed, they passed the name onto me because they could see that I could do along with everybody. Like a catfish, I can swim in clear waters, brackish waters, muddy waters, sea waters, that kind of thing. You've offended me so... Not you, sir. It really isn't your fault. All I was saying was, since you have all this clout, everybody's about, well, paint Lindsay's like this, paint Lindsay's like that, paint Lindsay's like this, paint Lindsay's like that.

Off and on for the past few months, I've talked extensively with Catfish. Oddly enough, a majority of our conversations were about computers and hacking, all topics he brought up on his own. So I just listened.

Yeah.

Facebook doesn't matter, though, whatever is typed on Facebook, because they don't want to admit to the public what they know about how they can prove who was typing what. You know, by the time you start logging on Facebook, with your first two or three keystrokes, no matter what letters you press, they have an 88% ability to guess who it is logging in. And we have almost 3 billion daily user accounts in Messenger.

because it's not like on a scale of like one to ten key press length hard so that's my real understanding of it but they could prove a lot of computer projects happened like you think they don't know what happened with that breach they recently released whatever i haven't even read it i learned that post it was kind of a dumb post because i didn't know it was an actual real breach

I can tell you something about that. I can tell you something. That's what I'm saying. We can earn some money that way too if we take a step aside from Crystal from now. I stumble into these kind of situations.

But I was sitting on my sofa doing nothing. When they release, they say it's the most advanced hack, most persistent advanced hacking attack at them ever. When Facebook has over like 100,000 attempts to breach the system every day, all day long, from bots, from people, whatever, jealous board friends, jealous girlfriend, you know, global adversaries, everything. They said this is the most advanced attack ever. Why did they only scrape 50 million accounts then?

when there's three billion. That's confusing, isn't it? I'm pointing out something of interest. And that's it. If you have access to cause Facebook to say, it's like going into a store to take the money because it gives you hunger around the corner and you got 30, 38 or something and the person goes, you empty the register, but just give me $5. You see?

I mean, this persistent attack probably went on for months and months and months and months and months. I'm guessing it happened seven months ago, and they're releasing it now, saying, oh my God, look what happened yesterday. They're saying Instagram wasn't harmed by it. I can prove it was. And Facebook, I'm going to stay friends with. Instagram, I respect even more. For one thing, Instagram has disciples, basically. Honestly, the one time I thought about messing with Facebook on a computer,

It wasn't to steal money or anything. It was to go back, like fake left, like go for the money and change the word friend to fiend. It was like, you have 19 new fiend requests or something. Do you know Katana? Not Cortana, but Facebook's Katana. There's your next million dollar podcast. It's like a virtual reality podcast.

There's something that's all in terminal code that's writing its own language, and it's really weird. Like, it's stuff I don't understand. I had new computers a long time ago, went to Rainbow Gatherings for 15 years, came back and said, wait, it's still in the same language? Basically, when I messed around with it on Facebook, I ended up having to go live talk on Facebook with guys in suits on Facebook.

If we were at odds, if we were at a war, you would think that after you've seen everything I've lost and all that kind of stuff, you take a finger, I take a hand, you take an arm, and at the end of the day, no one wins. Those kind of sayings on TV movies and stuff. The last two guys in a war, with all their friends and family beside them, those two last people will have a choice to shoot each other both down or sit down, smoke a joint,

I'm a little confused why Crystal was at your house towards the end there. ...at 3 in the morning, barefoot...

Okay, friend, I might get some good pot of it as well. But I didn't think that people were walking across town six miles or so barefoot in the morning because I'm just a sexy motherfucker. That was for a reason. And then we sat down and smoked like nine joints. But I might not even be exaggerating. Then midnight came around. And then, you know, three o'clock came around.

Smoked another one, maybe had a drink, maybe did a rail or something like that, maybe not. I mean, it's part of the story. The point is, next thing we knew, daylight was coming. Yeah, it was there. And it was noon, and friends were stopping by to have lunch and say hello and such. We were still sitting on the sofa. We were flirting with each other throughout the night, thinking about maybe we would hook up, maybe we wouldn't. But then it was noon, and I said, you know what, sir, this is where the story ends.

Which one?

Because there's never been one, you know, that kind of thing. You mean from last summer? I started before. I didn't know what you did last summer. Don't you mean, uh... I mean, come on, friend. I did not do this. You gotta back up off that. I am confused, though. What happened after the nine blunts? The truth is, that's what I'm telling you, is there was constantly... Did I smoke pot almost every day back then? Did she leave? Yes. Yes, she left.

Well, we got a minute. I'm gonna buy that truck I've been wanting.

Wait, don't you need, like, weeks to shop for a car? I don't. Carvana makes it super convenient to find exactly what I want. Hold up. You're buying a car on your phone? Isn't that more of a laptop thing? You can shop wherever you want. I like to do my research, read reviews, compare models. Plus, Carvana has thousands of options. How'd you decide on that truck? Because I like it. Oh, that is a great reason. Go to Carvana.com to sell your car the convenient way. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Shopify.

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Catfish was always willing to talk about what he wanted to, but every time I brought up Crystal or the last time he saw her, it was like hitting a brick wall. I'll admit, it's been pretty frustrating. For a while, it seemed like all the leads I had had been fully exhausted.

But then I got a message that seemed to change everything. This person's name had come up multiple times in the past, as someone who had intimate knowledge of what happened to Crystal. As things in Crestone have been heating up, I've heard from a handful of reliable sources that somewhere floating around out there was video and audio evidence of what happened. At first it sounded crazy, but all the stories kept matching up.

This guy messaged me on Facebook, and we started talking. "Okay, bro. I'll tell you everything that's the truth. But it will cost you $5,000, and I will not do it for less, and it will have to be face-to-face." "How am I supposed to believe you? You're gonna have to try harder than that." "I don't have to try harder than that, bro. You wanna know what I know about this girl missing? I'll tell you what happened, the whole story, because I know what happened for sure."

I was not there, but I've seen a little video and a voice recording of the last night she was at Catfish's. So if you want to know the truth about what happened to her, then it's going to cost you five grand, nothing less. And I will not do it unless you pay me. Hmm. Not sure that's how this works. I mean, ethically, it doesn't look very good, my friend. And why would I trust you? You're making money off this little show of yours. So why should I tell you anything for free?

You think because I won't talk to you unless I get paid for it, it's not very ethically right? Well, it doesn't matter to me if that's how you feel, bro. And no, I will not talk to you unless I have five grand in my hand. And I will only talk to you face to face, not over the phone. There's a $20,000 reward for information. Why not take that? I put 10,000 of my own money into it. No one will ever be convicted of it. I don't think anyone will ever be. No, it's only for information.

Okay, you're wrong about only for information. It's for the arrest and conviction of the people who are involved. So let's just say the people who are responsible are not alive. Then what? What would I be paying you $5,000 for? For what I know and what really happened to her. I'll tell you. Okay? Catfish told you that they will not find a body, right? Well, he is not lying.

So I know it's really fucked up, but it's the truth. Dude, five grand. You have until tomorrow by noon to decide if you're going to pay me for the whole story of what happened or not. That's all I have to say. Well, I'm not in Colorado right now. Well, that's not my problem. That's all I have to say to you.

Send the money so it can be picked up at any place in Colorado. You know my full name. Just send me the tracking numbers. Dude, like I said, I've seen a really short video of what they did. I know from what Catfish and I've told me as well. So we'll see if you send it or not. Goodbye. I'm strong enough at this point to tell you this. He's fucking dead. If you really type that.

Not because I'm going to come all the way out there and do anything, but because he has this weird karmic history where he does some dumb shit like that, winds up dead, and he wakes up the next day and does it again. This one's different. I'm totally willing to say shit that's totally against everything any attorney would advise anyone to say, and that's, well, we know who the next one to go missing is going to be.

Ain't nobody care. You're very close to losing any ability to talk with me whatsoever, which makes me sad because we actually had a lot of good things I thought we could do together. He is the least credible person. He couldn't tell on himself if he wanted to. I can say shit like he'd be dead tomorrow and nothing. No, I cares. No one fucking cares. See, I'm not making a mistake, but it's that big of a career mistake for you.

If you start listening to him, when clearly he just says five grand, five grand, five grand, give me the money, give me the money, give me the money, it means he's out of dope, sir. If you brought him $100 worth of heroin, which I can help you do that in a lawful manner, if you start using his words as credibility in any of your podcasts, your sponsors, your listeners, your own self,

will all fade away quicker than we can take the stage down. Do what you want. Just the warnings there. Do what you want though, man. So now I want my 5K. Now I want my five grand. Now I want my five grand. Now I want my five grand. I want five grand. I want five grand. I'll frame anybody up. Everybody knows I don't kill anybody, but he does. Hell, I know bodies are where it is, but I won't talk. It hurts because I thought we were friends.

No gangsters are coming after me. He does know some scary people. Those same scary people are the ones I'm gonna call to make sure he's fucking explaining this tomorrow, by tomorrow, like tonight, in the next 20 minutes, so... If he wants to see tomorrow, it's, what, 8 p.m. there? Whew. He better get to thinking.

For whom the bell tolls, motherfucker. I don't care if this is on your podcast. Hey girls, I need a date. For real, seriously, put this on your podcast. At this point, you have found a phone. If you do not call me, I'm having a hard time trusting you. I am not a hacker. That is why you will never beat me at computery. Hackers make themselves vulnerable. When someone tries to hack me and forces me,

To remember how to use a computer to look right back at them. That's just called free money, baby. Yeah, I'm being weird because I know you record stuff that I don't. Because I remember what people say. Not what I say, but I'm innocent. And I'm finally accepting that. You never come up by taking from things. You never come up by hurting people. You only fucking lose in the end. Why the fuck don't people know this?

Mr. Lindsay, so I don't even know if it's you. It could be my phone hacked me. I don't know. Because a lot of your people have, haven't they? In fact, do you know what they're saying about me and all that stuff? I need that to go quiet immediately. Like, that has to go if I have to go with it. Some say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. That's right, girl. Give me a call. That's how I'm going to use your podcast, Lindsay. It's my new dating app.

Baby, baby, it's me. It's me, darling. You know I wouldn't hurt nobody. It's me. Anyways, what was I saying? Oh yeah, right. 828-202. As long as you're 17 to 21, you're good. I'm not that much of a creep, but I'm 23 in the dark. So listen here, girls. You tired of listening to this man's podcast? Tune in at channel .05percenter.

I'm not a nomad, I just know I'm mad. Maybe your female podcasters will take sympathy on that and find that sexy as well. The point is this: it's a three or four or five year missing persons case with this much involvement and interest. I can only imagine how fucking pissed the Department of Justice is

that they likely gonna fucking do it themselves and fucking throw her in someone's yard. I'm glad I'm not there and I don't have a yard here. It seems like some shit used to keep quiet, sir. Like maybe some like, um... No, wait a second. Did I make any sense? Any sense, Amelia teacher? The bitch probably on WITSEC. Why else I got reports of feds telling people to shut the fuck up about it? Why else would feds be telling people to stay...

Quiet about that little theory about her being in with sick because I think she felt it ran off on her So I don't know what the fuck happened that for me to think about I'm not allowed to think about that kind of stuff because I'm one of them dudes It's called smart and clever and shit. I just thought I was drunk, but the room has really been spinning Am I on a fucking ride? What is this shit dude? You have to pay me to get off of it. No now I'm all of it. You're gonna have to pay me better idea Let's earn off of this since my main focus isn't money. I

It's not in clearing my name. It's not in proving my innocence. I've heard a lot of crazy stories throughout my time on this case. Some of them seem really far-fetched, and others seem really damning. It's not really my place or my job to say who's guilty here. I've played you what I've heard and what I've found and what I believe is relevant in furthering this investigation. My gut tells me that the answer lies within this group of men in Crestone. I think that multiple people were involved in Crystal's death and the concealing of her body.

Above all, I'm confident that there are more than a few people out there that could set the record straight right now if they wanted to. But they're scared. But maybe in time, the guilt will get to them. And I've learned that money is a big motivator to this group. I've been asked for money a dozen times in exchange for information.

My answer to all of you is this. There's $20,000 up for the taking. $20,000. And $10,000 of it I put in myself. So if you want some money, come take that. If you know what happened to Crystal, then come take this reward money. I can assure you, it's not a hoax. The money's real. You just have to tell the authorities. For some of these people, doing the right thing just isn't enough. Or

or maybe their information just wasn't credible in the first place. In my experience, these people want money, and they want it immediately, without involving law enforcement. Also, just because this podcast season is over, it doesn't mean I'm done with this case. We did our best to shake the trees, and it's time to let the dust settle.

Crystal's case has been extremely emotional, and I'm so thankful I've gotten to work with her friends and family, who care and fight for Crystal with such unparalleled passion. Right now, there's incredible momentum in Crystal's case, and soon enough we'll be back with updates. We've seen a lot come to light in a short amount of time. All I can say is, good luck hiding this forever, guys. The clock's ticking.

Up and Vanished is an investigative podcast told weekly, produced for Tenderfoot TV by Payne Lindsay, Mike Rooney, and me, Meredith Steadman, with new episodes every Monday. Executive Producers Payne Lindsay and Donald Albright.

Additional production by Resonate Recordings, as well as Mason Lindsay, Rob Ricotta, and Christina Dana. Our intern is Hallie Bidal. Original score by Makeup and Vanity Set. Our theme song is Ophelia, performed by Ezra Rose. Our cover art is by Trevor Eiler. Special thanks to the team at Cadence 13. Visit us on social media via at Up and Vanished, or you can visit our website, upandvanished.com, where you can join in on our discussion board.

If you're enjoying Up and Vanished, tell a friend, family member, or co-worker about it. And don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening.