S2E10: Too Many Cats
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Hey guys, before we start today's episode, I want to share some very exciting news with you. For the past year and a half, my team and I have continued to look into the disappearance of Tara Grinstead, chasing new leads and following up on tips that come our way. In that time, we've also partnered with the Oxygen TV Network to bring Up and Vanish Season 1 to life on the TV screen. And we're now proud to announce that on Sunday, November 18th, Up and Vanish will be coming to TV on Oxygen.

Again, that's Sunday, November 18th at 7 p.m. Eastern Time on Oxygen. And trust me, you don't want to miss it. Me and the entire team from Season 1, Maurice Godwin, Philip Holloway, Donald, and Meredith are all back in Osceola uncovering new information in Tara Grinstead's disappearance. So help us out and spread the word. Tweet it, Instagram it, Facebook it, whatever.

She wanted to go meet with some guy I don't know. I know. I know.

Big cat. That was it. And that makes it sound like some alter ego of mine. I didn't remember this for a year or so after I was interviewed. So yeah, it doesn't really speak well of me to be saying it now. I've been advised by like four attorneys not to.

I barely knew her, honestly. I met her at a party, invited her over. She came over like that night or the next day. We hung out that night. We smoked some pot, drank some wine, things like that. And then maybe one or two other times did I hang out with her. That's all I fucking know, sir. You knew her before that, right? Is this not your job to be harassing me after I said I need space? That's what I motherfucking know.

You can have it, man. It's fine. It's cool. You know, it kind of would be until it happens to you. So give me this space before I say some cruel stuff, please. Okay. You find some evidence that says I've done it, you air it, do whatever you want to do, because there is none of it. You have one unheard message.

Your name's Pat, right? Yep. Do you have a nickname?

Big Cat. From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is Up and Vanished. I'm your host, Payne Lindsey. After Catfish mentioned a guy named Big Cat, I started searching for him. And I'll be honest, at first I didn't think he was real, but I was wrong.

I haven't lived in Crestone for a couple years now, so I haven't been in the loop with the gossip lately. I just started freaking out because I had people messaging me that I didn't even know about this podcast. And I have nothing to hide from you guys. Like, I knew Crystal. She was cool. I hung out with her a couple times. She wasn't, like, a close friend. I mean, I didn't have, like, you know, I didn't know her too well. She came to my house about a week and a half prior to it.

What he told me was that Crystal said she was going to go to your house after she left Catfish's house. Was that the morning after she left your house or was that at nighttime? Did he say when? Because the only time she's ever been in my house, it was at night. And it was well before she went missing. I have my roommates to confirm my story and everything.

I asked about the last time he saw Crystal. What were the circumstances? It was at my house. It was a solid week or two before she was said to be missing.

So was that like the beginning of July? I don't remember exactly when it was, honestly, man. I couldn't tell you the month or the date. I don't remember exactly what happened, but, you know, I guess she invited herself over. I don't know if we were at the

the brewery at night or what, but it was just like a casual thing. She kind of invited herself over and having, you know, a beer. She didn't seem like she was strung out on drugs. Yeah, she seemed fine. She didn't seem sad. I've heard all the rumors, you know, that go around Crestone and not once have I

ever heard my name involved in it. In the past, my name has been like, somebody has came to me with some rumors they've heard, and it was actually a rumor about catfish. So names have gotten mixed up in that sense, but I've never heard my name in a part of...

his story at all. This is the first time I've heard anybody bring my name up in anything. How well do you know Catfish himself? I do not know him well at all. I just, he's well known around the town. Um, I mean, it's a small town. Everybody kind of knows everybody. Um, I've just heard his name around town, but I don't know the guy personally. Did you and Crystal hang out a lot? No, we didn't hang out much. I mean, um,

Yeah, she was over. She was hanging out with my roommates and I. And I mean, I wasn't super close with her, but she was just she was just a very friendly person, you know, and kind of just invited herself over and hung out one day.

I really don't remember what was said. Nothing obviously too important was said because nothing like stands out. She seemed fine, man. She didn't seem like anything crazy had happened. I wish like something would come to mind that she said, you know, but nothing, nothing does, man. It was never a party. It wasn't.

In the last couple weeks, Big Cat has been hearing tons of rumors involving his name.

I mean, somebody, okay, this is what was said, actually, that there's a full moon party at my house, I guess. And that she was at this full moon party, which was a lie. I never had parties at my house. I lived with a newborn baby. I lived with like four other people. I had roommates, so I had to respect them. They remember the night she was over too. And I have nothing to do with that, man. And that whole drug culture is, I stay away from that. I don't throw parties. I don't invite those people to my house.

I don't know why he would point fingers at me if he's trying to shift the blame off from him. I don't know. I don't know that guy. I have never had any bad blood with him, so I don't know why. I don't know why anybody would want to kill her. She was a fun, go-loving girl. She was easy to get along with. Everybody liked her. Easy person to get along with if you don't even know her and just meet her on the street. I don't know why anybody would just want to harm her.

I'm not worried about it, dude. And I'm not worried about Catfish trying to slander my name. Like, yeah, I have alibis. I don't have parties at my house. I have roommates that can be my alibi. There's a newborn baby in there. So, I mean...

I don't know how to get in touch with him, but I will totally call him and see what he has to say about that. I will message him on Facebook, dude. Um, hopefully I get a response. Um, maybe he'll call me, but either way, uh, I'll try to get a screenshot and record it for you. I don't know him well at all. I just know, uh,

Big Cat was very adamant about clearing his name. He was willing to call Catfish himself and confront him about what he said. I was anxious to hear how that would go. After we talked for the first time, he sent me the contact information for his roommates, who he said would corroborate the last time he saw Crystal, which was more than a week before she was reported missing.

He also sent me an official statement of sorts, about what all he remembers during his last encounter with Crystal. He said this: "The last time that I saw her was the first week of July sometime. She kind of just invited herself over, and she left that night. Had not seen or heard from her since then. But she seemed happy. She may have had a drink in her hand, so she may have been drinking, but was not out of control and was not on drugs to my knowledge.

She left that night. Not sure what time, but it was not extremely late. I honestly don't remember what our conversations were about, so there obviously wasn't something too important said, but I don't remember her saying anything before she left. She seemed fine, honestly. I corresponded with some of his roommates, and the story was the same there too. Coincidentally, after the last episode aired, Crystal's sister Amy realized that some of her friends knew Big Cat personally. She called me to tell me about it.

All he said basically was that he recognized his voice and he asked if he was, he said, you think he had anything to do with it? And then I said, you know him? And he said, he's a homie. And I asked if he knew his relationship to Catfish and he said, no, I don't. Big Cat's a badass dude. I can't see him hanging around people like Catfish, but I don't know Big Cat's like, you know.

When he said I can't see him hanging around people like Catfish, it makes me think he knows about Catfish and knows what he's about. I can't substantiate it, but just from looking at the writing, this kid Kit doesn't seem to think he had anything to do with it. I said I was just wondering because when his name came up in the podcast, I just thought it was a little bit strange.

What I would be curious is, like, is he a homie that, like, he's seen in the past two years? You know, like, I've got homies that I haven't seen in a while. So, big tag. Never heard that until podcast. Yeah, I haven't heard his name anywhere in the rumor mills.

People spend their whole day on those threads making up lies, you know? And of course, a juicy murder story would be a good one to, you know, delve in on. Like, threads are like dreads. There's no combing through them, really, because it's all mumbo-jumbo.

I don't know, I just don't get the instinct that this big cat kid, maybe he knows catfish, but I just don't have the feeling that he's like honestly in any way involved. But I feel like it doesn't hurt to poke around.

The next day after I reached out to Big Cat, he sent me some screenshots of his attempts to reach out to Catfish via Facebook. Big Cat sent Catfish a message that said this: "Hey, call me when you can. I've been talking to these podcast people and I was told that you said Crystal went to my house after leaving yours. I haven't seen her since a week or two before she went missing. Why are you bringing my name into this?" Catfish didn't respond. Big Cat also called Catfish on Facebook Messenger. No answer there either.

Yeah, man, I tried to call him. It won't even ring. It says that it's not allowing me to contact him because we're not contacts on Messenger. It's weird, though. Last time when I first tried to call him, it was ringing and going through. But I would love to call him and record it and see what he has to say.

Eventually, Catfish blocked Big Cat on Facebook. And then randomly, Catfish's Facebook disappeared entirely. Then it popped back up again. This time with a new name. His real name. He's no longer Catfish on Facebook. I would just ask him, you know, what he heard from Crystal and why he was trying to bring my name up into it, you know, all these years later. And I just, I mean, I honestly kind of feel like he's just

Using my name to get the spotlight off of him. And, you know, I mean, I don't know. People know me from Crestone, man. Like, I don't have a reputation like that. I don't think anybody thinks I had anything to do with that. You know, the first time I've ever heard my name involved in this is Catfish bringing it up.

For now, there wasn't much more to explore in the big cat theory. But I found it odd that Catfish blocked him when he was confronted about what he told me. But there still wasn't enough information to rule anything in or out.

Save on Cox Internet when you add Cox Mobile and get fiber-powered internet at home and unbeatable 5G reliability on the go. So whether you're playing a game at home or attending one live,

You can do more without spending more. Learn how to save at Cox.com slash internet. Cox Internet is connected to the premises via coaxial cable. Cox Mobile runs on the network with unbeatable 5G reliability as measured by UCLA LLC in the U.S. to age 2023. Results may vary, not an endorsement of the restrictions apply. At the Crestone Eagle newspaper, the editor showed me the ads Crystal's family have been running in the paper. Yeah, they ran an ad, Crystal.

Rodney has remained vigilant in his search for Crystal, continuing to poke the bear in any way he can, reminding the town of Crestone that they're never giving up in their quest for the truth. He's bought full-page ads in the paper about the reward money, and he's personally sent out letters to every resident in town.

I had sent out postcards at the beginning of the month addressed to the residents of Crestone. I went through the reward and there was a picture of Crystal on one side and Kasha on the other. With either this coming ad or the next ad, I'm just gonna start throwing provocative shit out there and hopefully some of it sticks as long as it doesn't endanger my family.

but I'm getting prepared for that too, so if somebody wants to come that direction. The next ad, today I was rewriting it, trying to decide if I wanted to run it this month or next month. I was on the fence about it to the persons responsible for Crystal's murder. You know who you are, we know who you are. And I also said animals, and that includes the aquatic type.

Before Catfish left town, Rodney was in Crestone himself. He was talking to the deputy, Wayne Clark. So I had asked him if he knew where Catfish lived. He took me by his house and it just so happened Catfish was standing out by the road when we drove by and he waved. I don't think he knew who I was. He knew who Wayne was. You know, is this guy dangerous? You know, and I've asked him that before. Well, yeah, he's real dangerous.

but the people that he deals with are even more dangerous. The Crestone local, David, is also fully aware of the persons of interest in this case. Catfish John, I know who he is, and like everyone else, I really want, you know, some answers here. I just, you know, I don't know a whole lot about him. I know that there's an awful lot of kind of dark stories about him, you know, like maybe just too much drugs and

and maybe a little abusive and yeah, but I don't know. I don't know any more than that. I know he's got a really bad reputation, you know, which is a shame, but yeah, that's all I can say about him. Most stories or rumors have some kind of basis in something. They have to start from somewhere, you know. Somebody knows something. Somebody knows something. We just need to find out what that is.

With all the oddities and strange people in this case, it continues to boggle Rodney's mind. In this day and age, weird is the new normal. In a sense of, you know, I think I can be surprised by something, and no, I'm not. Because...

You know, what was it, the one where the wife killed the lover of her ex-husband and then she married, you know, and they got her 23 years later, she was a clown. You know, when I talk about weird is the new normal, look at the political climate. I won't go there, but, well, anything is possible.

Rodney and Crystal's family have all heard my call with Catfish now, and they share a unique perspective on what Catfish is saying to me. Yeah, I think he's probably trying to find out where you're going next, in a sense. You know, trying to keep track, but that won't work. But the more he talks, the...

Because the more you can keep him off balance, you know, the easier it is going to topple him over. I fully believe that you getting involved here has prompted CBI to really move forward on this. You know, I mean, it's a win-win for everybody if they are able to, you know, bring something good out of this situation.

And I said this back when, you know, you guys are the key here to this because you're concerned, you're interested, you're dogged at it and everything else, you know, with the shock and awe effect of it will just really put Crestone... You get the town fathers there, the mayor, you know, those people and everybody else, and you say, hey, folks, you know, I read their paper and I see all this real feel-good stuff and everything else, but hey...

The sheriff believes that this is no longer a missing persons case. He's pretty clear. He believes that

foul plays involved. I don't know if they've taken the actions that the public believes should occur if he thinks a homicide happened, but that's what they believe. They don't believe she just walked off. They believe that this is a case of foul play. They just haven't figured it out yet. Maybe they're getting closer. We can only hope. They're talking about it, right? I mean, your podcast has brought that town together.

to speak about this openly. And I believe that they were speaking about it quietly in corners and in their own homes prior to the publicity from your podcast guest. I think people are really interested now in figuring this out, even people who live in town. Maybe there's some scared people, but I think that it's produced more people that are brave at this point. They need to

fess up. They need to move forward as a community and flush out the truth. I think you've pushed them to do that. It's not exactly a waiting game, but it's pretty rare that these things never get solved. And hopefully it'll be soon. Because people like to have it solved so that they can see justice. They can see a cause and effect, an exposure and somebody bad who gets caught and a conviction.

It's probably less interesting 30 years from now, right? All the people who really care about her are gone, have died, forgotten. It would be best to get it solved now. And now's the time because people are talking.

Thinking that people want to defend themselves or their good name, I just haven't found that to be the case. Even completely innocent people often just say, "Nope, not gonna talk. Don't want to. Don't need to. This is silly. I don't need to respond to something so silly."

And I always think people should be able to defend themselves and answer questions. I think that that's the best way. If I was going to advise somebody, you know, how to PR their life, it would be open up a little bit. You can be cautious in talking to people, but you should talk, explain. Always better because people, they can understand lots of flaws, but they want to hear something. And no comment's like the worst thing. But a lot of people choose no comment.

The Sheriff's Department, they haven't had to deal with very many of these serious kind of cases. So it's not like they have seasoned New York City homicide detectives on staff because that's not what they do.

They probably are better off serving their community with folks who can help change tires and properly deal with domestic disturbance violations and help people on drugs and drunks get to the tank. I mean, those are the folks they should hire out. You shouldn't waste the money for a crack homicide investigator. They should also be willing to openly welcome professionals to come in from the outside.

Many of the town rumors about the incompetency of the Sheriff's Department to me don't seem very fair in the sense that I don't think they're set up to look at homicides. And I do think early on they recognized that they needed some help. And I have to give them a lot of credit for that. If mistakes were made, mistakes are made. You can't go back and change history.

Do I think that there was a conspiracy to hide evidence or change evidence or intentionally not look into this as a serious matter for some period of time to let suspects get away? No.

Now, I just don't think that's at the heart of any law enforcement agency. If we see corruption in a police agency, it's a small group of people or one or two people, but it's not usually the whole structure. And I never got the feeling of that. I mean, I think that they're doing the best they can. And by calling in outside help, it gives me, I guess, some hope that somebody with a second set of eyes, a keen set of eyes with some experience in homicide investigations can spot what they need to

to help the Sheriff's Department locally look good. Like, y'all get credit for it. You know, let's get it solved.

Crystal's case has been littered with hearsay. It's been difficult to sort through, but just as you'd expect, certain names and details have stood out over time. Still, Crystal's case is especially difficult in a few ways. One, the timeline is fuzzy. There's not a clear 24-hour period that everyone agrees on. That being said, I still stand by my theory that Crystal went missing between July 13th and 14th. Two, there's no real physical evidence here.

In Tara Grinstead's case from Season 1, there was all sorts of case evidence. The latex glove, her room was disheveled, her car had mud on it. There was a lot to go off of. This has not been the case with Crystal, the exception being her phone, which is now with the CBI. And number three, of course, there's no body in this case.

After over two years, I don't believe this is a missing persons case anymore. This is a homicide, and Crystal's family seems unanimous on this too. It's the most difficult kind of homicide case to pursue. A homicide with no body. So I called upon someone who specializes in cases like Crystal's. His name is Tad Tobias, and he's an expert in his field. His nickname says it all. The no body guy. Yeah.

Known as the no body guy, Tad is well versed in these cases. I've always said to people murder is the ultimate crime and the no body murder case is the ultimate murder case. So what I do for no body murder cases is I consult and I teach on the cases. So I will teach groups of police and prosecutors about how to successfully close a no body homicide case and then how to successfully prosecute it.

than any no body murder case by its definition, you're going to be missing the main piece of evidence, which is the body. And you're going to have to explain that to the jury that even though we don't have the body, we know for certain that this person is actually murdered, not just missing. It's easier today to make a successful no body murder prosecution than it's ever been.

There's been a real acceleration of these cases for two reasons. One, DNA has jumped tremendously and made it much easier to connect victims and defendants to scenes. And then number two, the electronic trail that I talked about. When someone has gone missing recently, such as in Crystal's case in 2016, it's a lot easier because everyone uses cell phones, text messaging, Snapchat, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter,

will post these markers throughout their lives and leave these markers. So it's much easier to say, look, there's been no indication that this person has been alive during this timeframe. In this case, you'd be able to point out the number of times Crystal contacted her daughter to show that she had a close relationship with her daughter, that she would not go two years without contacting her daughter. No one's going to believe that.

No.

Obviously, she had some difficulties and people said she maybe had changed. And some people who said, no, she was in a good place. And some people said, ah, she wasn't in such a good place. But even in those cases, those bodies tend to be found of suicides and things like that.

Well, that doesn't seem

either because she's someone who had been in the area. She's someone who is familiar with the area. She's not, you know, a dumb tourist going down the Grand Canyon with no water and flip-flops.

I'm not saying she's an experienced backpacker or anything, but those just seem unlikely, particularly when we know she was telling people she had been raped, sexually assaulted by someone, and then all of a sudden she disappears. That seems to raise much more alarm flags than the suicide or I'm out doing a walkabout and I passed away.

The odds are she had something happen to her and someone intentionally put her away. And as an investigator, you've got to play the odds. What is more likely? Is it more likely she walked away, died, and nobody has found the body? That's unlikely. It's more likely her body is hidden, unfortunately. The longer case

to go the more reliant we become on what people said to one another the forensic evidence becomes more difficult because time passes and even though dna can last a very long time if exposed to the elements or in somebody's house they've been able to clean up well enough using bleach and things like that killing dna it becomes more difficult so as a result of that you

And we've seen that with your show alone.

People start coming forward and talking about this is what I know. This is what I heard. And to me, that's really how this case is going to be solved. I'm not ruling out forensic evidence, but I think it's more likely that it's going to be when someone finally steps forward and either confesses or other people step forward and say this person told the X, Y and Z.

the smallness of the community is a little striking to me because typically in small towns, you know, everyone's at small towns, everybody talks and you seem to have some of that here but not to the extent that I thought

So that strikes me as a little odd. But the overall themes of people committing murder possibly after some type of relationship or some type of crime occurring and committing a murder to cover up that crime, whether it was a sexual assault

of crystal or an overdose of drugs or whatever it was. Those themes, I think, resonate throughout the time that I've been looking at these cases. Most popular places to bury a body is number one, water, and number two, dumpsters.

And that's because a lot of these murders actually happen, obviously, in urban areas. In Colorado, the population is less. The number of people per square mile is just lower. It's easier to dispose of a body there than in an urban location. Everything I've heard about this location is it's remote and it can be difficult terrain. It has mine shafts, which right away says to me, if I'm a nobody...

Killer, where am I going to get rid of a body? In a mine shaft. They're dangerous to go into. And so when you start getting down to where bodies can be buried or just disposed of outdoors, it becomes a lot harder because you're talking about, you know, in Colorado, a huge area, a difficult area to search if you don't have some specifics about where it would be.

And search parties play a role into that. You've got to really be prepared as a detective to do that. It may be running down ridiculous leads. It may be a psychic said such and such happened. You still got to run those things down because then at trial, your detective or the prosecutor can say, here's all the places we looked at so that the jury really gets to sense, hey, these guys looked everywhere and they still didn't find anything.

Most no-body murders are

planned in advance. Most of them happen because there's a fight between two people. People who were in love, people who are in love, those types of things.

And so there's not often a lot of planning. The difference here is if you have the presence of more people, there's going to be more of a panic and let's just get rid of the body quickly. Let's get this done. Let's get this out of my house and let's go somewhere else. So that could lead to an element of a more kind of slapdash disposal of the body. Yeah, although I will say...

All the people you've interviewed, none of them seem like massive planners. Most cases are not necessarily ones that you can translate into a successful no body prosecution because when you don't have the body, it's such a huge disadvantage. You know, I liken it to it's like a hundred meter race where the murderer gets to start at the 30 meter mark and I'm starting at the start line.

I don't know how you search that area without intelligence. You need intelligence.

to smartly look. It's vast. And again, I think if somebody killed her, I don't think they're geniuses. I don't think that they were going to put her body on their back and carry her eight miles through the rocky terrain. I think that if somebody killed her, they've put her someplace that was relatively convenient for them. But I doubt they just laid her out on the ground.

Very unlikely. Even the most idiotic criminal would do something to conceal a body. The repeated rumor we hear is that Crystal could be at the bottom of a mine shaft. And just trying to figure out if there's any truth to that rumor, we spent quite a bit of time looking for abandoned mine shafts in the Crestone area.

I've recently acquired a geocoded list of abandoned mine entrances in the area. And we're going through and mapping to try to figure out exact locations. And some of them are on private property, so you can't just wander around. Others appear to be on public land, BML land.

What we expect to do is find some possible locations that the Sheriff's Department hasn't looked at. It's just another way to push the investigation forward. If there are 50 abandoned mine entrances in the Crestone area, and 47 of them have giant steel welded grates over them or are filled with boulders, then

And those are ones that we wouldn't focus on. But if there are four or five that are a little rickety or appear open, if we can identify those and just ask some questions, whether anybody's done any discovery in those areas, maybe that helps. Maybe it doesn't. It's just one way as reporters we think we can help. You know, we're willing to do that work.

I've been involved with some grid searches for little kids that get lost. There are hundreds of volunteers that walk arm length to arm length apart, mile after mile, looking for little kids that are missing. And those are small areas and they might take a thousand people. Up at 8, 10,000 feet down that part of the state, it's tough in the snow. We are fighting the clock.

Now I want to break down the timing of this snowfall tonight. This is 815, still hanging on to that snow in the high country. And that's really the beginning of our next storm system moving in. You can see it covering the high country. 14 inches of snow, over a foot of snow in the past 24 hours. Snow's an issue. We've been watching the weather. We're trying to get back out to Crestone to do some more work. The work that you're talking about and the work that we want to do requires that there not be snow on the ground. ♪

There are two main episodes left this season, and we're giving this investigation everything we got. Next time on Up and Vanished, we team up with Chris Halsney and his investigative team to search for Crystal and Crestone, and we're bringing some help of our own. The families deserve the absolute best that we can give to them.

And I believe that fully. That means preparing myself physically and mentally, staying in good shape, being aware of what suspects are doing and what's happening to these victims, and then making sure that my partners, these dogs, are in the top physical condition, that they're trained, and that we choose the right dog to do this kind of job. Chance technically is called a human remains detection dog. Many people know them as cadaver dogs.

Based upon what we've discussed earlier, again, with all due respect, if she's out there or there's scent out there, it's going to thaw out throughout the day and it's really going to bring that scent to life. It's going to be really optimum scent conditions for the dog. Keep going down that road. We're working our way up that road to the dead end. There's a whole bunch of mines just off that road. We are right now by this huge water tower and we're in a white Xterra.

So there's another mine shaft that says down this hill. And I'm wondering if this comes out. Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore. Or in this case, Chance, I don't think we're in Georgia anymore. We will know more at the end of this day than we did at the beginning of this day. Up and Vanished is an investigative podcast told weekly, produced for Tenderfoot TV by Payne Lindsey, Mike Rooney, and me, Meredith Steadman, with new episodes every Monday.

Executive Producers Payne Lindsay and Donald Albright.

Additional production by Resonate Recordings, as well as Mason Lindsay, Rob Ricotta, and Christina Dana. Our intern is Hallie Bidal. Original score by Makeup and Vanity Set. Our theme song is Ophelia, performed by Ezra Rose. Our cover art is by Trevor Eiler. Special thanks to the team at Cadence 13. Visit us on social media via at Up and Vanished, or you can visit our website, upandvanished.com, where you can join in on our discussion board.

If you're enjoying Up and Vanished, tell a friend, family member, or co-worker about it. And don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening.