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Welcome everyone to The Run Up, a podcast from The Real News Network that's going to help you stay informed, engaged, and empowered this election season. My name is Maximilian Alvarez. I'm the editor-in-chief at The Real News, and we've got a really great and important installment for y'all today. When Donald Trump was elected president in 2016,
It sparked a lot of fear about how his victory would embolden and unleash far-right groups like the alt-right, whose existence had largely been limited to dark corners of the internet. Now, four years later, those fears have focused on the emergence of the QAnon phenomenon, and how this conspiracy theory and its followers could impact the coming election. What is QAnon?
How did it come to be? And how dangerous is it? On this episode of The Run-Up, our own Jessel Knorr discusses these and other questions with a brilliant panel of specialists, including Shane Burley, Parker Malloy, and Brian Friedberg. Let's go.
It's called QAnon, a fringe conspiracy theory that some political analysts have likened to an online religion. Thousands of groups and pages with millions of followers and members. The QAnon conspiracy theory is spreading around the world like a pandemic. Welcome to The Real News. I'm Jess Lenore.
QAnon is a far-right conspiracy theory that has exploded across the United States and the globe during Donald Trump's presidency. I know nothing about QAnon. I just told you. I know very little. You told me, but what you tell me doesn't necessarily make it fact. I hate to say that. I know nothing about it. I do know they are very much against it.
They fight it very hard. While Trump has downplayed the coronavirus pandemic, he's frequently amplified QAnon, the false conspiracy theory that claims Democrats are part of a global pedophile ring and that he is battling them behind the scenes. Why not just say
It's crazy and not true. He may be right. I just don't know about QAnon. You do know. I don't know. No, I don't know. I don't know. Trump is backing Marjorie Taylor Greene, a candidate who won the GOP's nomination for Georgia's 14th district.
and is among more than two dozen candidates who will appear on the November ballot who have endorsed, given credence to, or promoted QAnon. That's according to Media Matters. Q is a patriot. He is someone that very much loves his country. Last year, the FBI warned QAnon is part of a growing number of, quote, conspiracy theory-driven domestic extremists, and its followers have been accused of attacks, kidnapping, and other violence across the country.
QAnon gained a wide audience in large part thanks to social media, where its conspiratorial, easily disproven message and accompanying memes have spread like wildfire. TikTok has become the latest media platform to crack down on QAnon, following similar moves by Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube, who say this is part of their fight against disinformation.
When Trump was elected in 2016, there was a lot of debate about how much his presidency would embolden far-right groups that were really housed on the internet. Now it seems like the debate is just how much the far-right will impact the election from their own votes to spreading misinformation to even possibly intimidating voters.
Well, we're joined by a panel of experts to discuss all of this and more. Let's start with Parker Molloy, an editor-at-large at Media Matters, joining us from Chicago. Thank you so much. Hey, thanks for having me. So can you start off by talking about why QAnon is so popular and what role the media, both social media and news media, have played in its rise? So, yeah, QAnon, as you were kind of
uh discussing is this this idea that trump is you know leading this charge against a global cabal of satanic pedophiles and it's it's kind of uh it's something that could be entertaining i guess if you if you're reading it as fiction um and i think that that's kind of part of why
It took off the way it did. That people right now are... Were entertained by it on 4chan at first, and then it moved to 8chan, and then it moved to these other places. Every time it keeps going down somewhere else, it keeps getting moved. And so you take this thing that is...
Kind of an entertaining story that fulfills all the preexisting beliefs that Hillary Clinton is evil and Democrats are, are, uh,
in league with the devil or something along those lines. And I think that that is kind of why it took off in those online message board kind of places. But it wasn't until things moved over to YouTube that things that it seemed to really take off. And YouTube, as we all kind of know, the YouTube algorithm,
just feeds you what it thinks you want to see next. And as you're watching these videos, you could start off by watching a video where it's someone who's talking about why pedophiles are bad, which then leads to a QAnon video of
You know, someone talking about this conspiracy theory that Trump is out to stop pedophiles, which, OK. And then it moves on to this other one that is kind of the full blown conspiracy theory that involves celebrities and Democrats and all of this. So it's it's part of this algorithm theory.
boosting that you're starting to that you're seeing so that happens on YouTube and then it makes its way over to other platforms as well you've got Twitter and Facebook and you know tick-tock as you were saying so with all of all of this the problem is that moderating these this content is is near impossible I mean these these companies kind of sat on it for a while did not do much
until maybe it was too late. And this conspiracy theory is now taken off to the point where there are, what was it, 27 people who are on the ballot this November who have expressed support for this. And like you were saying, the president has kind of embraced them, even though he knows for sure that he is not in charge of this sort of operation. It's
It's kind of scary because the people who believe this really believe it. And that is a trick, you think, to moderate if you're a social media company, especially when conservatives are often talking about...
are often talking about their belief that they're being censored for being conservative or that these companies have anti-conservative viewpoints, even though that doesn't make sense on its face. When you factor in the QAnon stuff, you could see how some of these companies might be kind of careful about not over-policing content, but
What that does is that just lets that content flourish. And as they kind of knock these out, it's like a game of whack-a-mole trying to stamp out these conspiracy theories as things go on. So it's a big mess is what I'll say.
We're also joined by Brian Friedberg. He's the senior researcher of the Technology and Social Change Research Project at the Shorenstein Center on Media Politics and Public Policy at Harvard Kennedy School, studies the rise of far-right movements. In a recent piece, you write about how the dark ages were rife with plague, fanaticism, and anti-Semitic conspiracy theories. And you see this history repeating itself today with QAnon playing a major role
and amplifying such conspiracy theories. Can you discuss this? And you talk about hidden virality and how it circumvents social media crackdowns that we were just discussing.
Absolutely. Thanks for having me. QAnon, like the so-called alt-right before it, show fundamental flaws in our mass communication systems and how major social media platforms have been incentivized to foster white supremacist extremism and other far-right
topics on their platforms. QAnon being a notable current example and the failures of platforms to deal with them systemically and in a coordinated manner that promotes social equity is one of the main topics that we're focused on in looking at how not just QAnon but other far-right movements spread disinformation for political gain.
The hidden virality of QAnon happened
Outside of what we would like to call the the gaze of the liberal consensus polite society People engage with what we would call more mainstream political platforms however the work of Harvard's Berkman Klein Center in a book called network propaganda shows that there is an asymmetrical media environment between more mainstream
liberal and leftist sources and far-right media. Far-right media has shown to spread conspiracy theories and disinformation at a much higher rate. And the failure of right-wing media to address QAnon in its own communities is one of the main reasons that it was able to flourish and become such a major subtext to much insurgent Republican political communication in this moment.
And we're also joined by Shane Burley, author of Fascism Today and the upcoming book Why We Fight: Essays on Fascism, Resistance, and Surviving the Apocalypse, which will be out next year.
So you've been covering the far right for a long time on the ground in Portland, covering the Proud Boys demonstrations. It seems like QAnon is part of a really bigger emergence of the militarized far right. We talked about Kyle Rittenhouse in the introduction, who you've written about as well.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, one of the things that QAnon does is the same thing that George Soros conspiracy theories and other things do, which is add a certain kind of binding agent to a lot of these groups and also help pushing them to a more militant form of action. You know, what's unique about the Proud Boys and a lot of far-right groups in the last couple of years is that they've pulled away from a kind of ideological consensus that you saw in a lot of the alt-right, which was built around really relatively explicit white nationalism, and instead about radicalizing a sort of
conservatism. It's a conservatism that they think is more moderate, but it is based on a kind of lack of consensus reality. So the conspiracy theories end up doing is giving them a sense of radicalization. They have a real big mission that they're fighting. It's one that kind of extends far beyond normal political bounds and one that actually they believe touches everyone's lives. So you'll see, for example, QAnon is kind of one of the large kind of confederation of conspiracy theories that are motivating people.
You're going to see, obviously, like I said, Soros. Occasionally you're going to see a lot to do with fluoride in the water. You're going to see things about CNN. There's going to be a variety of kind of conspiracy theories, cultural Marxism and other anti-Semitic dog whistles. So those are a lot of what helps create that kind of common language on the ground and pushes people to more extreme actions. You know, when you present
the enemy not as one that's ideological or one that's kind of in a win-lose political battle, but one that literally is sacrificing children to Satan, they're much more willing to take more serious action, even in minor conflicts. And so, you know, I listed some of the crimes that these supporters have been charged with. So it's not just online. Like these people are actually taking action and committing violent acts, kidnappings around the country.
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, when I'm at a Proud Boys rally or if I'm covering it, it's not uncommon to literally see Proud Boys accused counter demonstrators or even mainstream press of collaborating with satanic cults, with being agents of Pizzagate, and literally chasing them out with things like baseball bats, you know, bear mace, which is kind of a toxic chemical spray, or even pulling guns.
Parker, we talked a lot about social media. You've written about how the mainstream media has not necessarily done a great job covering the rise of this movement, especially with the more than two dozen congressional candidates on the ballot in November. What do you think the mainstream media, I mean, there's some notable exceptions of some great reporting on these issues, but what are you calling on the mainstream media to do?
Sure. I think what's important here is for mainstream news outlets to actually understand this movement. I think part of the issue early on was that they were either brushing it off completely, most reporters were brushing it off completely, or treating QAnon kind of as a voting block and not a
dangerous conspiracy cult. And I think we're starting to see more journalists kind of catching on there. NBC has been doing a great job on its coverage. BuzzFeed does a great job with this sort of stuff and has been doing it for a long time. But other outlets are starting to get on board. I think what's important is just to realize that this is a serious group. It's not...
it's not the Tea Party 2.0. This is where it was, this was just a really intense voting block. This is a group that goes out and it threatens people and it smears them and it tries to harm them. One of my concerns when
when it comes to how media covers QAnon, is what happens when someone like Marjorie Taylor Greene gets into Congress? At what point, and we kind of have this issue with Donald Trump as well, where you have to deal with the fact that someone is in a position of power, but what they say may not be
information that is good. So do you amplify what they say, even if it's total nonsense or it's dangerous? Or do you try to work around that? So I think that that's going to be a big challenge in the coming years for how media cover any candidate who makes it to a place of power.
And Brian, the president and the GOP have embraced these far-right movements. Even after there was a plot uncovered to kidnap the governor of Michigan, there was no relenting on this rhetoric around needing to get them out of power. And of course, Trump has promoted baseless conspiracy theories about voter fraud and told his supporters to stand by.
you know, stand by as these as this alleged voter fraud will happen. As we get closer to the election, we know that you're launching a new project to look at examining disinformation online. What should we all be watching for and what are you most concerned about?
As it relates to the QAnon movement and the variety of conspiracy theories that we've seen kind of spread through very quickly is understanding the provenance and assigning responsibility both to groups and to platforms for spreading this kind of harmful rhetoric and disinformation artifacts.
QAnon is a remarkable amplification system for all sorts of disinformation that don't necessarily come from the core community itself as it's spread throughout the
social media largely unimpeded for many, many years. There are all sorts of networks that are going to be very difficult for mainstream platforms to fully dissolve, especially as we have all tech platforms such as Gab that are openly welcoming de-platformed QAnon influencers.
to their site as well as alternative video hosting platforms like BitChute that are also starting to grow as a result of these de-platformings. In our research on the life cycle of media manipulation campaigns that will be illustrated in our upcoming case book that we're releasing,
We try to illustrate not just where these things come from, but also their impact and the true cost of misinformation on our social institutions and the incredible strain that this has put on journalism that should be focused on timely, relevant, local information that actually impacts people's lives.
And you see the way that the QAnon movement has weaponized our social media platforms to the point of making themselves the story. There's a phrase in the QAnon community, we are the news now.
where they actively try to trade up the chain and hijack media attention, whether good or bad, to help spread this information. And in our work, we try to trace not just up to the point of journalism, but past the point of mitigation efforts by the platforms, whether or not they're successful, and ultimately how these groups have learned to adapt to changes in terms of service and deplatforming.
Can I jump in? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Oh, sorry. On that point, one other issue that kind of the intersection of media and social media, traditional media and social media, is this...
backlash that sometimes pops up where someone will, if someone gets suspended from Twitter or de-platformed, if Twitter de-platforms QAnon, I think that there's a segment of conservative media that will then embrace QAnon out of some sort of
desire to own the libs, you know, to try to say, look, we're more tolerant. We'll take you in. They're targeting conservatives. And you saw that happen to a certain extent when certain platforms stopped hosting Alex Jones, for instance. And I think that that is something that you're going to see more and more with QAnon. Fox News' Jesse Waters did sort of that same thing where then he tried to –
say it was kind of the same thing as Democrats who believe Russia interfered with the election, which those aren't the same thing, no matter what anyone's opinion on it is. But I think it really takes on this
persecution complex that sometimes conservative media has, and it gives them someone who has been targeted by the mean tech companies. So that's always going to be kind of the tricky part for these platforms is to balance what is politically feasible for them with what they need to do to actually shut it down.
And I guess my follow-up question would be, aren't these platforms inherently going to be spreading this kind of misinformation and conspiracy theories because this is what gets clicks? We know that our brains are programmed to seek out these dark conspiracy theories and these stories. So what could actually be done to, because QAnon, even if it's stamped out, it's just going to get replaced by something else, right?
Yeah, conspiracy theories are tough business. I mean, conspiracy theories are hard to debunk. When you try to debunk it, doing that, or try to deplatform someone, it gives them, they consider that proof of their conspiracy theory. YouTube shutting down QAnon accounts, that
I've started to see places popping up saying, look, this is proof that YouTube isn't on it too, or that this is the deep state. These corporate overlords don't want us to get too close to the truth. So they see platforms cracking down on QAnon as evidence of QAnon, which...
It doesn't make sense, but at the same time, you can't just let it run free because we've seen how that works out.
Can I jump in on that? Absolutely 100% agree with all that and also these platforms were not built on equity like the the the safety of The user on this platform has been calibrated to a white Privileged subject since the beginning of these platforms and the radical libertarianism of Silicon Valley informing what is tolerable on these platforms from the start is
has led us to this situation. And when we talk about how QAnon has been allowed to foster and how a lot of the racism and antisemitism in the community is filtered away and hidden in deeper forms,
while we see digital blackface operations designed for voter depression running rampant and usually only the work of community members or critical journalists additionally the the juxtaposition of
Antifa being allowed to operate openly on social media while QAnon is banned is another thing that conservative media has been really harping on when we know that the majority of the Antifa instances of extremism that have been passed around in conservative media actually come from fake Antifa accounts that have been
relentlessly reiterated by right-wing operators as best illustrated by some of the work of Aaron Gallagher. This is going to continue happening. Can I jump in on this for a quick second? You know, I think one of this speaks to the fact that this is going to require outside interventions on tech companies. It's not going to be something that's handled by technocrats in-house. They've been incapable of kind of understanding how their platforms can be used.
and there actually needs to be expertship coming from the outside, pressure from activist groups that are gonna set a new standard because they are kind of unable to create a kind of gatekeeping platform or system that's actually effectively understanding this. This is true across not just social media, but like print on demand companies that are printing t-shirts designed by users. There's all kinds of these instances
where they simply have not created a system that's able to intervene on those in a smart way. And it's going to actually require a kind of broader community setting standards externally and trying to influence the companies that way. Because I just don't think we can actually expect those companies to institute those on their own.
And, yeah, it's worth emphasizing these tech giants, these social media platforms are making a killing from the revenue from this kind of information. Shane, I wanted to ask you, we were just talking about Antifa. President Donald Trump recently boasted about a federal task force that killed an anti-fascist activist, Michael Raynaud, who is suspected of killing a Trump supporter.
We sent in the U.S. Marshals. Took 15 minutes, it was over. 15 minutes, it was over. We got him. They knew who he was. They didn't want to arrest him. And 15 minutes, that ended. Anyhow.
Yeah, I think that the rhetoric on this is really concerning. The entire way that it's handled is really concerning. It's also kind of emblematic of how the protests in Portland, Oregon specifically have been handled, but they're heavily handled both by federal officers, local officers, and then deputized local officers to federal authorities. And then the protests widely across the entire country this year that have seen really excessive use of force against both demonstrators and the press and legal observers and things like
that. So this is part of like a whole spectrum of kind of excessive treatment of that. And I think it's directly derivative of this sense of like folks are saying this trumped up fear about what Antifa is, what it represents, what kind of actual threat it has and creates a sense of, um,
about where the actual threat is coming from. And then Trump essentially playing to his face, validating the use of violence to intervene on that, basically suggesting that we can bypass the rule of law and court proceedings and things like that.
And so I think you know why this is this is frightening in terms of legal precedent It's frightening in terms of policy and the way that trump is using government agencies It also has a more direct influence on the interpersonal behavior of far-right vigilantes What they feel like they're going to be allowed to do what they feel like is going to be socially acceptable And what they feel compelled to do so for example in portland as the police are cracking down on
protesters, far right groups, Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, 3% militia folks, and other folks kind of in that orbit came out and used violence against protesters as well under the belief that essentially they're coming to back up the police, so to speak. So there's a kind of a culture when that unremitting violence against left-wing protesters is allowed to flourish that that sends a message to these vigilante groups. And that's where we have statistically seen the most amount of violence.
And finally, Shane, it appears one of Trump's strategies leading up to the election is, like you said, spreading misinformation and fear about Antifa. Do you think, I mean, so it seems like he is encouraging violence ahead of the election and possibly during the election. Is this something we should be really afraid of and planning for? Or do you think people have already started taking this seriously?
I mean, I think it's something that's concerning. And I think that's something that people should be taking measures to counteract the threat of, you know, for example, if Proud Boys are coming to polling stations or they're coming to ballot dropouts by creating community systems that, you know, let people vote safely or to report those things when they're happening, keep communities safe, that kind of thing.
Trump is using vigilante rhetoric to trump up a kind of emotional part of his base to take action now Hopefully he hopes that translates into voting but it translates into a lot more than that It translates into a lot of people trying to take extraneous action The message that Trump is sending is that sometimes you have to break the rules to follow a bigger mission That's the story of QAnon That's the story of that underscores a lot of the Trumpian rhetoric and that is the one that sends a message to a certain part of his base that violence is going to be
You know, when the Proud Boys started coming around for the most recent set of rallies, they were mentioning Kyle Rittenhouse, the shooter in Kenosha, as their inspiration, saying that that's a person that took action against, you know, the dangerous Antifa or Black Lives Matter protesters. And that rhetoric is continuing and a certain portion of this base, a substantial portion, is going to be mobilized to take extraneous actions.
Well, I want to thank you all for joining us for this conversation. Shane Burley, author of the upcoming book, Why We Fight. We were also joined by Brian Friedberg, senior researcher of the Technology and Social Change Research Project at the Shorenstein Center on Media, Politics, and Public Policy at KFU.
the Harvard Kennedy School, and of course, Parker Malloy, editor at large at Media Matters. Thank you all for being part of this conversation. And we only really scratched the surface of these issues, but hopefully we gave our viewers a good jumping off point and we'll link to all of your work. So thank you all for joining us. Thanks so much. And thank you for joining us at The Real News Network. All right. Thank you for listening to this installment of The Run-Up.
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