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Welcome to Sisters-in-Law, real sisters, real lawyers, and really good talk. Join us for episode four, Pain to Power. Is it a moment or a movement? Just like the rest of the world, we're talking about what's going on. Trump is in Tulsa, Oklahoma, and also marchers are in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Protesters are everywhere. They're protesting for Juneteenth, and they're still protesting. But will the protests last? Is it a moment or a moment? Can we turn this pain, the pain of George Floyd and Rayshard Brooks and Breonna Taylor and so many others whose names we should call into something that's going to change the future? Because the past, I don't think anyone, at least none of us, can stand anymore. You're listening to
Sisters-in-Law, the podcast. Well, I had a theory to prove, Jan, and my theory was that we can turn pain into power by voting. And I believe that. I believe that with all that is in me. And in my research, I thought I was going to prove what I already believed in the first place, that the difference between the prosecution of Derek Michael Chauvin
who killed George Floyd and the whole world saw it, and the three other officers who were charged with aiding and abetting Alexander King, Thomas Lane, and Tu Tao, that their prosecution was different because Attorney General Keith Ellison is an African American. And when he took over the prosecution for the state of Minnesota, the charge against Derek Michael Chauvin changed from murder third degree
which is a lesser type of murder that does not require intent on the part of the person doing the killing, to second degree murder, which doesn't require intent either, but it's a charge that could get him 40 years in prison, a more serious charge. And he also charged the three other
officers who were standing by, one standing guard, one standing on the shoulders, and the other one holding the feet of George Floyd during that execution we all saw. I thought about Rayshard Brooks. Why was the officer charged so quickly in that case? And my theory was that Rayshard Brooks' killers were charged because Paul L., the district attorney in Fulton County, Georgia, and he is African-American.
I was going to go on to prove my theory, which I developed before I did my research, by proving that the reason that Breonna Taylor's killers have not been charged, that one of them just got fired from the police department, still walking around free, was because the prosecutor was white. Well, I was wrong. In the Breonna case in Louisville, Kentucky,
The case is being handled by the attorney general for the state of Kentucky. His name is Daniel Cameron. Well, he's a Republican, and I figured that. He's an elected official, just like all district attorneys and attorneys general. Daniel Cameron, remember that name. He was appointed to be the attorney general for the state of Kentucky when the former attorney general of Kentucky won the race for governor of Kentucky.
And after he was appointed to fill that unexpired term, he was elected in 2019 with 58% of the vote. Daniel Cameron. I'm going to keep saying his name, Jay, because it's significant. Daniel Cameron, to my surprise, is an African-American, a 34-year-old African-American man who is now the attorney general for the state of Kentucky, who won his race. I would...
I would venture a guess, and I don't think it's just a guess. I think it's an informed opinion that he probably won a significant amount of African-American support to get 58% of the vote when he was elected in 2019 to a six-year term. But just because he's African-American doesn't mean that he's on our side. The officers who broke into Breonna Taylor's home where she was asleep there with her boyfriend
They haven't been charged. They're walking around still on the payroll. And what Daniel Cameron has to say is, I can assure you that at the end of our investigation, we will do what is right. Well, no other criminals are afforded that type of latitude. It appears that Attorney General Daniel Cameron is conducting the trial on his own because he's going to
complete an investigation before cases are brought against those officers that burst into Breonna Taylor's home. The warrant they had was a no-knock warrant. When it went on its face, it's unconstitutional not to knock without saying police. We're the police. But they didn't do it because we've talked about in previous episodes that no-knock warrants do not mean that police should not
announce themselves, it means that they can come in, but they have to announce themselves. But that was case law. And case law has not been codified into statutory law. But that's not my point. My point is, it only takes probable cause to affect an arrest. Probable cause means the crime has been committed and the person who is the subject of the warrant
is likely, more likely than not, to have been involved in the commission of that crime. We all know that the people that burst into Breonna Taylor's home were involved in the commission of her killing. She was shot eight times. We all know that probable cause is very obvious. Sometimes prosecutors have to prove it
But there's no proof needed to determine whether there was probable cause in Breonna Taylor's case. But what's different is not that the prosecutor is not black because the prosecutor is black. What's different is that the prosecutor, Daniel Cameron, is a Republican and not just any Republican. He's a former counsel to Mitch McConnell.
Okay, let me say that again because that's crazy. He's the former counsel to Mitch McConnell, who's holding up a lot of things in the Senate, who's doing a lot of stuff that's terrible, in my opinion, in the Senate. Daniel Cameron was his counsel. He was a football star in undergraduate school. And so therefore, a lot of people in Kentucky know his name.
And I imagine a lot of them know his face because he ran for a statewide office attorney general and he got elected in a landslide. So I proved my case and I disproved my case, Jan. It's not exactly the color of the attorney general that makes the difference.
It's the mindset of the attorney general or the prosecutor that makes the difference. Daniel Cameron said some crazy stuff. He said, we will find the truth. Well, that's what a jury does. It's important we get this right. That's what a judge does. He even spoke out on the protests in Louisville. Violence and lawlessness will do nothing more than to perpetuate further tragedy. It's kind of an intellectual threat.
If y'all keep on protesting and showing out, some more people are going to get killed. He said he was sad and heartbroken. Not enough.
But my point is, why is he the judge and jury of these white officers before they're even charged, rather than charging them like the Constitution says they should be charged based on probable cause? Why do they get more civil rights, obviously, than Breonna Taylor or any other defendant in a criminal matter, except for when police kill unarmed Black people? You can tell I'm fired up. I know you are, too.
Yes, and I was just thinking about Mr. Prosecutor and the Attorney General in Kentucky. What do you say his name is? Daniel Cameron, 34-year-old black man, Republican, who was a former legal counsel for Mitch McConnell.
Don't forget that. We have to consider, David, I understand about the theory, but your investigation proves something that we do know, that the race of a person doesn't tell you everything you need to know about their politics. Well, that's the truth, Jan. Because Clarence Thomas is black, so if a black man were incapable of siding against the majority of black people, he would have a different point of view.
But we know that he does not. He routinely rules against the interests of what most black people would want to see done on the Supreme Court. And we can all name black folk. But what's interesting to me about Mr. Cameron, at 34, he is a relatively young attorney general and sounds like he's the beneficiary of a lot of goodwill from people like Mitch McConnell. He was born probably in 1986.
which means that in 2008, when Barack Obama was elected, he was only 22 years old. All of his adult life, we've had either Donald Trump or Barack Obama as president. Given Mitch McConnell's power and influence in the United States Senate, sort of like Armstrong Williams from South Carolina, who was a protege of Strom Thurmond,
Don't tell me he's from South Carolina. I did not know that. You didn't know Armstrong Williams was from South Carolina? No, and now that I know it, I don't want to claim him. But no, I didn't know it. Well, Strom Thurmond raised him up and propped him up and gave him his start. His family were farmers. And so he learned his politics at the knee of Strom Thurmond. And no doubt, this 34-year-old man, I'm sure he's ambitious.
and charismatic, has learned his politics at the knee of Mitch McConnell. The same Mitch McConnell who won't let H.R. 1 get a hearing in the Senate, although it has passed the House. H.R. 1 would restore the Voting Rights Act, but Mitch McConnell has no interest in restoring the Voting Rights Act.
the same Mitch McConnell who refuses to hold hearings on the president's nomination to the Supreme Court as he did with President Obama. So no wonder that an impressionable, ambitious, intelligent, young African-American lawyer could be corrupted by somebody like Mitch McConnell. He's expert at it. It reminds me, you know, history is
You really do need to know history, some of it. I don't know nearly enough, but I've been thinking about this and a phrase struck me, and you let me know when it's time to go to a break. A phrase struck me from some writings of Thomas Jefferson, "I tremble that God is just." When we come back from the break, I would like to talk just a little bit more about what 19th century politicians knew about their relationship to black people,
and how in spite of having the right moral idea, they were unable to conform their behavior to their morals because of greed and ambition and avarice. And so I suspect Mr. Cameron is ambitious and young and inexperienced and easily persuadable.
Well, apparently the people of Kentucky were easily persuadable as well. Because I can't imagine that he would win that type of victory without a lot of African-American support. But we want to talk about that in the history of one of my favorite characters. No, that's the wrong words. One of the characters that I've studied in history and need to study more, Thomas Jefferson. And Jan, at this juncture in our history, I'd like to talk a little bit more about Juneteenth.
Juneteenth that I've known about for a very long time. And the people of Texas have known about since 1865, June 19, 1865. And talk about what it meant to them then and what it has meant through the years and what it means now.
I think we need to know that history because it appears that we are moving toward a federal holiday for Juneteenth. Talk about what it is and what it isn't and the relation between the freedom of slaves across the country and what happened on Juneteenth. I know you have a lot to add to that. Well, this is Sisters-in-Law, the podcast. Stay tuned with us as we discuss this.
Pain to Power, A Moment or a Movement. Welcome back to Sisters-in-Law, the podcast. We're talking about Pain to Power, A Moment or a Movement. Obviously, we're talking about the massive worldwide movement that was spurred by the killing of George Floyd, which we all saw while many of us were in quarantine. What made the difference between the prosecution of George Floyd's killers and
and the prosecution of Breonna Taylor's killer. Well, my thoughts were wrong, and Jan, I'm glad you thought they were right to some degree. I thought the difference was an African-American prosecutor in the George Floyd case, Keith Ellison, the Attorney General for the state of Minnesota,
moved quickly after he got the case, the cases, he charged all four officers. He increased the charge of Derek Michael Chauvin to murder second degree and charged the other three with aiding and abetting. I'm glad he did that, but I think a murder one charge might still be in the wings.
Because there's some testimony. Well, you know what I think about it. I think that actions speak louder than words. And Derek Michael Chauvin's actions showed that he actually had intent. And the whole concept that Derek Michael Chauvin knew George Floyd from the place where they worked, the salsa club where they worked together. There was a witness who said that they had beef about the way Derek Michael Chauvin was treating the black patrons at the club. But that's yet to be seen.
Rayshard Brooks, who was shot in the back in Atlanta, Georgia. The district attorney, Paul L. Howard Jr., threw the book at the killer, and rightfully so. He did his research. He came up with charges, 11 of them, for the shooter. The other officer has already stated that he is going to testify against the killer of Rayshard Brooks.
While Breonna Taylor's case languishes in the hands of Daniel Cameron, who is African-American, who is the attorney general for the state of Kentucky, but who is a Mitch McConnell Republican, 34 years old. And he wants everybody to wait and give it time and give him and let him have time to do an investigation. And after he finishes, he's going to do what's right. Well, it's been three months already, plus some.
And he still hasn't done what's right. What would be right, in my opinion, is to go on and charge the officers who stormed into Breonna Taylor's house. It was the wrong house in the first place. She's an EMT, an essential worker, a good girl who wanted to become a registered nurse, who wanted to help people.
The person they were looking for with that no, not warrant was already in custody. So they were wrong in the first place and they were wrong in the second place, storming into Breonna Taylor's house. But what's really wrong is Daniel Cameron, the black Republican hasn't charged anybody. And those officers are walking around free because he has to do an investigation. He says before, before,
he can come up with the right thing to do. Well, I can tell him today, Daniel Cameron, the right thing to do is to charge all three of those officers because there's sufficient probable cause. A crime was committed and it's a 99.99% likely that all of those officers were involved in the commission of the crime.
But, Jen, you wanted to talk about a little history. And, you know, that's my favorite stuff. Like a fool, I made history in college and not just any history, the history of Thomas Jefferson on slavery. Well, the reason I want to talk about it is because I think that history really does offer lessons about where we are right now.
And when we think about Mr. Cameron, we would like to think that his experience as an African-American man would prevail in how he chooses to go about his official duties. But Thomas Jefferson offers a very poignant and pointed example of how a towering figure in American history could behave in ways that are so at odds with what his stated moral beliefs were.
In 1781, just a few years after the revolution, Thomas Jefferson wrote these words, there must doubtless be an unhappy influence on the manners of our people produced by the existence of slavery among us. Now, Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner. He owned lots of slaves. He had a plantation at Mount Vernon. He depended on them for his livelihood. But yet he says,
Owning slaves must have an unhappy, a bad influence on the manners or morals of our people. Then he says the whole commerce between master and slave is a perpetual exercise of the most boisterous passions, the most unremitting despotism on the one part and degrading submissions on the other. I wonder if he was thinking about Sally Hemings when he talked about degrading submissions.
It sounds like it. And who was being degraded, him or Sally? Sally. He's the despot. Unremitting despotism, that's him. And degrading submission on the other. That sounds like Sally Hemings to me. Sounds like it to me too, Jane. Our children see this, he goes on, and learn to imitate it.
For man is an imitative animal. If a parent could find no motive, either in his philanthropy or his self-love for restraining the intemperance of passion toward his slave, it should always be a sufficient one that his child is present. In other words, in 20th century parlance, if you can't stop beating your slaves for no other reason, do it because you don't want your children to see it. But generally, the children being present is not sufficient.
The parent storms the child looks on, catches the parent's wrath, puts on the same ass in the circle of smaller slaves, gives a loose to his worst passion, maiming, seeking dogs on people, and thus nursed, educated, and daily exercised in tyranny,
cannot be but stamped by it with odious peculiarities. In other words, slavery is just as bad on the slave owner morally as it is physically for the slave. The man must be a prodigy who can retain his manners and morals undepraved by such circumstances. And Jefferson was no prodigy. He goes on to say,
And with what execration should the statesman be loaded, who permitted one half the citizens thus to trample on the rights of the other, transforms those into despots and these into enemies, destroys the morals of the one part and the arm our patriarchy of the other. Interpretation. Who would right thinking upstanding citizen would let half of the citizens who are white
treat the other half who are black any kind of way because it makes those who treat them that way into despots and makes the slaves into enemies, destroys the morals of the slave owner and the patriotism of the slaves. I think about what Frederick Douglass wrote about the Fourth of July. And then he says something so profound. For if a slave can have a country in this world
It must be any other in preference to that in which he is born to live and labor for another. In other words, why in the world would somebody forced to work for somebody else's livelihood without pay have any kind of patriotism toward the United States? He goes on to talk about liberty and freedom. Well, Jan... It's so true that... Yeah.
I acknowledge that Thomas Jefferson was intellectually keen and superior in some ways, but morally lacking. As I have said over the years, and I keep saying it to somebody who believes it, the founding fathers were mentally ill. They were smart, as mentally ill people can be.
But they were mentally ill and the evidence of it is that they thought they could own humans and treat them like animals. I wouldn't give them the benefit of the doubt of saying that they were mentally ill. I think they were just greedy. Greedy and sinister. All of them have asterisks in my book. They founded a country, true enough, but it was founded on greed and evil. And I think you could be so evil as to be maybe not mentally ill, but demented.
But this is showing that he understood that it was wrong. Listen to what he says. And I know listening to this language is hard. It ain't hard for me. What's hard for me is giving Thomas Jefferson any credit. But go on. We need to talk about this. I'm not giving him credit. What I'm saying is that despite his understanding, he was greedy enough to overlook what he knew was right.
Yes, I agree with that. And can the liberties of a nation, can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that those liberties are a gift of God and that they are not to be violated but with his wrath? What is he saying?
How in the world can I protect my freedom when I know that my freedom is a gift of God and that I'm violating God's principles when I deprive others of their freedom? He goes on to say words that are famous. Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever. In other words, he's having nightmares that what he is doing is wrong and that he's going to have to pay for it.
But even knowing that, to me, that makes it more sinister. Just like Cameron. Cameron may know that what he's doing at the behest of Mitch McConnell is wrong, but he's greedy and he's ambitious and he's willing to subvert what he knows to be wrong in hopes that he won't be punished for it. Okay, I'll take that interpretation. You know, I say this all the time too, and I hope it helps somebody other than me.
the founding fathers, including Thomas Jefferson, they were very good in their English. Their language was wonderful, but their math was funny. Their language was good. They said the right words. They didn't mean them necessarily. They knew they were right. They weren't heartfelt because they didn't act as if those words were right, like the words you just read. He knew all the words.
But he didn't adopt those words in his doings and in his lifestyle. But their math was funny because they thought that it was okay to call Africans three-fifths human and to count them as such and put it in writing. That's the dementia. That's the demonic spirit. That's the greed.
Even though they knew it was right, as you said, they knew what they were doing was wrong. They knew it was wrong. They were willing to exchange the right for money, for free labor. They were willing to march into hell for an evil cause. And then even Thomas Jefferson said, because he had some beautiful words, perhaps God is just and I'm going to have to burn in hell for this.
But I'm willing to do it because this plantation, these Negroes on this plantation are the most valuable thing I own. Well, he thought of y'all, but yes, the concept of owning another human. Let me just do one more little piece and I'll leave it alone. Okay, you don't have to leave it alone. That is justice, that God's justice cannot sleep forever.
That considering numbers, remember he said half the people are black. Considering numbers, nature, and natural means only, a revolution of the wheel of fortune, an exchange of situation is among possible events, and that it may become probable by supernatural interference. In other words, half these folk are black.
And they're going to rise up against us. And they're going to rise up against us and overturn this situation. And God might be on their side. Well, he seems pretty convinced that God is on their side. But do you really believe in God if you're willing to defy what you believe is his will? That's what, what do they say about money? The root of all evil. The value of the slaves in the United States at that time, all the factories and railroads,
and everything else that was in the United States put together. The amount of wealth they were able to amass was enormous.
gargantuan, even by today's standards. And that's one reason we can't talk sensibly about reparations, because most economists believe it would bankrupt the United States. I'm going to stop there. But there's a few more words I want to add from Lincoln as we go through this, because I think it tells us exactly where we are. Mitch McConnell knows he's wrong. Cameron knows he's wrong. But the lure of that
ambition and people doing what you tell them to do and the self aggrandizement and the wealth that comes from it was more temptation than they had moral fiber to withstand. I want you to go on and say the Lincoln part. You know me, I'm thinking about a song and I'll talk about it after you talk about Lincoln a little bit. Well, everybody knows
you know, four score and seven years ago, our father brought forth on this continent a new, but that's not what I want to focus on. That is the Gettysburg Address. But in Lincoln's second inaugural, which correct me if I'm wrong, that would have been what? February 1865? Yes. He talks about it may be that all the wealth that has been piled up by the labor of the slaves will be lost
and that every drop of blood drawn by the lash, that is, every time a black person was beat and they drew blood from him, may have to be repaid with blood drawn by the sword. That is, the Civil War was still going on because it wasn't April yet. They hadn't got the Appomattox yet. And then Lincoln says, but the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.
it might be that we have to suffer terrible punishment for what we have done to these black people. And not just southerners, but southerners and northerners alike participated in, made commerce of human beings. And maybe that's why 750,000 Americans had to die in the Civil War, the most bloody and deadly war the United States has ever fought. James, I keep thinking about the Isley Brothers song, Hardest for the World.
All babies together, every one a seed. Half of us are satisfied, half of us in need. Love's bountiful in us, punished by our greed. When will there be a harvest for the world? A nation planted so concerned with gain. As the seasons come and go, greater grows the pain. And far too many feel in the strain. When will there be a harvest for the world?
Well, we may be in a harvest for the world moment right now. We've got the convergence of Black Lives Matter, traditional activists like me and you, elected officials who are Black. We have everything we need, it seems, at our disposal if we are willing to keep the faith and keep struggling. I know people have different opinions about Black Lives Matter.
But I'm telling you, this is a moment like we've not had since 1965 in terms of making progress for our people. And I hope that we keep the pressure on, and I hope we don't get so busy finding fault with Black Lives Matter and Black Lives Matter doesn't spend so much time finding fault with old people like me that we can't work together to do what is in the best interest of our folks. And people like Mr. Cameron just have to sit and watch.
Well, my prescription for people like Mr. Cameron and anyone else who does not agree with the agenda of justice for African Americans, we need to vote them out of office.
And my concern and my, well, let me just say my hope is that our marching will march us straight to the polls where we will vote our interest. You know, African-Americans are the most sophisticated group of voters in the history of the world. Yes, they are. We took a minority and voted in a minority agenda and made it the nation's agenda.
There's a moral march going on in Washington right now. We are the morality of the country. Without us, there is no morality. Just like Thomas Jefferson was worried about being slave masters would make them immoral and make their children immoral.
It put us on a moral high ground. I think we would have been there anyway, but we were on a moral high ground because we didn't do anything wrong to get kidnapped and brought to this country. And over and over and over again throughout the history of this country, we have been on the right side of history, on the right side of justice, and we still are. Well, you know what they say, that unearned suffering is redemptive. Well, yeah, Jesus said,
Just an example. Nothing has changed, but I don't want this harvest to pass.
I want us to march to the polls. I want to make the connection between people like Daniel Cameron, the attorney general for the state of Kentucky, who won't charge the people who broke in on Breonna Taylor and shot her eight times because he's doing an investigation for three months, affording them rights that the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the state of Kentucky do not afford them, afraid to charge them because he's a Mitch McConnell Republican.
I want them to realize that that person is an elected official. And the whole purpose of elections is to put people in office who follow the agenda of the people. And we are the people and we need to elect, select and elect people who follow our agenda. If you're not going to protect the rights of African-Americans, you don't need to be an elected official. And Daniel Cameron is an example of that.
But just like Daniel Cameron is an elected official all across this nation, attorneys general, district attorneys are up for re-election in South Carolina. We call them solicitors. Solicitors are up for re-election. They need to be questioned. Do you believe that police officers should be charged?
If they do something like the police officers did in Kentucky, barging on Breonna Taylor or kneel on the neck of George Floyd or shoot Rayshard Brooks and so many others in the back. Walter Scott. That's right. Are you capable of prosecuting that kind of crime? And if not, why not? Not only capable, but are you willing? We know you're able, but are you willing to prosecute them? Is your mind in the right place, the place where we the people are? Because we have spoken publicly
But our most effective speech at this juncture is at the poll. And let me say a little... I would take slight issue with that. Okay. Because, and just slight issue with it, because it takes both. We would not be at this moment if activists like the Black Lives Matter crowd had not gone to the streets. We wouldn't be at the moment where we would be
as assured as we've ever been since I've been an adult, that we can actually do something about police successes and about health disparities and all the other things that have been revealed by this pandemic. I think that we have to be on guard, that we don't let the forces that would defeat us first divide us from each other. I talked to a woman this morning who was one of the co-founders of Black Lives Matter in Los Angeles.
And she told me a couple of things. One is they have a reparations bill at the state level that is pending. That was good news to hear. The other was, I asked her, I said, are there any myths about, any misconceptions about Black Lives Matter? She said, let me tell you one, that we don't believe in voting. Yes, we do believe in voting, but we believe in demonstrating and voting at the same time. I hope that she was sincere and accurate about that.
Yes, we need to vote. We need to vote like we've never voted before because our very lives depend on it. But we also need to keep the pressure on in the streets because, like Thomas Jefferson, until they are threatened with penalty, some folk can't see justice. Yeah, that's the morality piece. I'm in total agreement with you. Black Lives Matter is an amalgam.
Number one, it's a concept. It was a concept before it was an organization. And I don't know too many people, Black people, that don't agree with the concept. Black lives do matter. We shouldn't be treated like dirt, worse than dogs. We shouldn't be gunned down and executed in the street.
That's a concept. Black lives do matter. Now, the organization has different iterations around the country, around the state, even around small communities. There are different groups that say they are Black Lives Matter. But by and large, almost every Black person believes Black Lives Matter.
But we know that Vice President whatever Pence doesn't believe in because he wouldn't say the words yesterday. Right. So the concept that Black Lives Matter is almost universal among African-American people and what this new protest movement is.
brings to the table is white people who have joined us in that belief. They might have believed it before, but they are convinced of it. They saw George Floyd being executed in real time. Those people are irrefutable. And around the world, and even as far as
Japan, they were saying Black Lives Matter. I think humans in general believe that. A whole bunch of Republicans may not. But most humans believe that it is a human right and a human value that Black Lives Matter. Now, whether we're members of an organization here or there or one of the various groups of Black Lives Matter, the organization, that's kind of beside the point.
I know that in 2016, there were people who said they believed that Black Lives Matter, who said that they would not vote. But I hope that we don't have that situation like we had in 2016. And if there are some adherents of Black Lives Matter who think they don't need to vote,
We just need to use every drop of energy we have to convince those who will vote to vote. And I tell you what worries me about November. Absentee ballots are not easy to obtain. Black folks sometimes have trouble filling out forms on computers and submitting them for ballots to come to their home.
We know we don't have enough machines. We know that there's not enough precaution to avoid COVID-19 at the polling places. We know there are forces in this society who want to limit the right to vote because they feel that's the only way they can win. So I hope we'll keep our eyes focused on making sure we have the maximum turnout possible
Do everything we can to expand voting options right now so that we don't have a repeat of Georgia and Wisconsin in November. That may be our biggest enemy. I agree with you, Jan. I think Georgia in the primary this year was a preview.
It was a trailer for what is going to happen in November. The tricks are on. Republicans can't win big elections if there's a large turnout. And they know it. Trump said himself he hopes black men don't come out and vote. Not only black men. I'm sure he hopes that black people don't come out to vote in large numbers. But I don't take my lead from Trump. We need to come out and vote in the largest numbers possible.
We're pretty much on the same page now, even with a lot of white people who are human and who saw what happened to George Floyd, who saw what happened to Rashard Brooks, and who are now becoming familiar with Breonna Taylor and many others who were killed without just cause.
And for me, that is the God factor. Only God could get a film that white people could see and then could not deny brutality against blacks at the hands of the police. And I'm going to say this too, and this is my belief. I believe this with everything that's in me. Only God could allow a pandemic to make us all be at home to see it. I agree with that too. Only God could use a Donald Trump
to galvanize us to fight like we never fought before. And to settle on some values that, you know, we like to say are American values, but, you know, justice for all. The majority of Americans now believe that there should be justice for all and believe that there is not justice for all right now. And if that question had been asked four years ago, we would have gotten a whole lot of different answers and perhaps half of the people would not agree that it's
an American value, but we know now. Well, I just hope that we don't get weary in well-doing and that we don't let the forces that oppose us divide us. Well, I was encouraged because after the arrest in Atlanta, after the enhancement of the charge for George Floyd's killing in Minnesota,
I thought that the protests were dying down, but I was encouraged to know that for Juneteenth, there were massive protests. Again, not just in the United States, but all over the world for Juneteenth. I want to talk a little bit about Juneteenth, the history of Juneteenth, because I've always known about it because, you know, I was a history major.
And I had to go back and refresh my memory because people are saying things about Juneteenth that are not exactly historical. I believe in the holiday. I think it should be a holiday. Why not have a holiday? And I'm glad that people protested in very large numbers for Juneteenth. I want to talk a little bit about what Juneteenth means and what we can do with it after the break.
Welcome back. You're listening to Sisters-in-Law, the podcast. Today, we're talking about turning pain to power. And we're talking about a moment or a movement. Well, we believe we can turn this pain to power. And we hope that it's not just a moment, but a real movement that causes change in this country and around the world.
I want to talk about Juneteenth a little bit. I've known about Juneteenth a lot of times. I say it all the time. I'm a black woman who majored in history. There's a T-shirt out on the Internet saying it's hard to beat a black lady with a history degree. Well, I got one and I have a lifelong love of history. So I've known about Juneteenth.
for a very long time. I had to go back and refresh my memory because people are talking about Juneteenth now in the context that Juneteenth ended slavery in America. And that's not exactly accurate. I'm all in favor of Juneteenth and I'm in favor of making it a national holiday. It could be an international holiday. But Juneteenth
They're talking about June the 19th, 1865, or more precisely, General Order 3 that was read in Galveston, Texas on June 19th, 1865. It was read to the people. At the time, Jan, there were 250 Africans who were enslaved in Texas.
250,000. Did I say that right? There were 250,000 Africans enslaved in the state of Texas on June the 19th, 1865, the day that General Gordon Granger read General Order 3. And it was a military order.
It goes like this. The people of Texas are informed that in accordance with a proclamation from the executive of the United States, all slaves are free. This involves an absolute equality of personal rights and rights of property between former masters and slaves. And the connection heretofore existing between them becomes that of an employer and a hired laborer.
The freedmen are advised to remain quietly at their present homes and work for wages. They are informed that they will not be allowed to collect at military posts and they will not be supported in idleness either there or elsewhere. By order of Major General Granger.
So that is General Order 3. It was read on June the 19th, 1865 in Galveston, Texas, and it informed the people of Texas in accordance with the proclamation that the slaves were free. And the proclamation that General Granger was referring to was the proclamation that the East Coast already knew, the Emancipation Proclamation.
From the executive of the United States. The executive of the United States that he was referring to was Abraham Lincoln. And of course, by then, Lincoln was dead. Well, Lincoln was, he was dead by June the 19th? Yeah, he died in April. He died the week after they surrendered. Well, they surrendered April the 9th at Appomattox Courthouse in Virginia.
But the Confederates in Mississippi, Louisiana, and just a few in Texas were still fighting. They were still fighting until June the 9th, 1865. It seems odd to us now, but word didn't travel as fast and they weren't as connected as you might imagine. And there were branches of the Confederacy who thought that it was...
inappropriate for Lee to surrender, that he should have continued to fight. And so they were almost like insurgents. They had telegrams. They knew the war was over. They didn't want to give up. And there were not a lot of Union troops in Texas at the time. And so you mentioned earlier, and we've talked about before, that when the Emancipation Proclamation was officially issued January the 1st, 1863,
the Africans who were enslaved had to follow the generals. They had to follow the Union Army or escape from slavery for them to be forever free.
They didn't just take hold because they were slaves or enslaved. It only took hold if they escaped to a Union state or joined the Union Army or got close enough to the Union Army or to a base. And so that's what General Granger was talking about when he said that they would not be allowed to collect at a military post because that's what
the enslaved Africans were doing, they were going to military posts so they would have the protection of the Union Army and be able to take hold of that freedom that the Emancipation Proclamation gave them. It wasn't just an automatic thing. That's what the war was about at that point. And you know, it seems, I'm reading something into this, but almost immediately the wrath that the Southerners felt toward
the Union was transferred to African America. Yeah, that's a real crazy concept. It happened, and yes, it was the Union versus the Confederacy, or the Confederacy versus the Union. But when it was over, both of them turned against the Africans who hadn't done anything except get kidnapped and held hostage for hundreds of years. But that's another part of the same story.
So Juneteenth was started by the reading of a general order on June the 19th, 1865 in Galveston, Texas. And so almost immediately, the Africans in Galveston, Texas, and even some in Mexico,
They were called the Muscogos. I hope I'm pronouncing that right, but the Muscogos were people who were enslaved, who were taken by their slave masters to Mexico because for all the monuments and the accolades given to the Confederates, a whole lot of them ran to avoid the fighting. And to keep their slaves. And to keep their slaves. They ran west to Texas because Louisiana fell very early on
And they ran past Louisiana to Texas, where there weren't a lot of Union troops. And a lot of them went into Mexico. You've heard of the federales. The federales were just the opposite of federales. They were slaveholders. They were Americans running from the Civil War. They were on the wrong side of the war, and they were running instead of fighting. So they weren't all that brave. They were just greedy. But almost immediately, the Africans who found out from this general order that they were free,
formed groups and the very next year, 1866, they celebrated June 19th, 1865 as Jubilee Day. They called it Jubilee because that's the day they knew or found out that they were free from slavery. They said they had the consciousness and the society that
to join together and celebrate it exactly a year later. And not only that, Jan, they pooled their money. I think by 1867, they had pooled their money and bought land so that they could have a place to celebrate their freedom. And now that's saying a whole lot.
I saw Emancipation Park in Houston, Texas, and many people who have been to Houston have seen Emancipation Park, but I didn't know that it was land bought by people who were formerly enslaved so that they could celebrate their emancipation. Well, you know, there was a lot of heroic history of African Americans. Did you know that in 1876, 2008,
Formerly enslaved people left South Carolina to go west. I think they went to Arkansas all together, all at one time. They had mules and horses and stuff. They had stashed and left South Carolina going to a place where they could be more free.
Very interesting to me, Jan, which ties into our topic today, that those Africans who bought land so that they could celebrate what they call Jubilee or Jubilee Day back in 1867, one of the main topics of their celebration was not only eating barbecue and drinking red soda water on the 19th of June, they were talking about how to exercise their right to vote.
That was the agenda for the day. It was not just a celebration, but they talked about and informed each other, got the information and passed it along about how do we exercise our right to vote. Amazing. And so just like millions of African-Americans migrated from Georgia and South Carolina and North Carolina,
to New York and parts North Philadelphia and New Jersey in the Great Migration. And there was a Great Migration that left from Louisiana and Texas and went west. They went west to find jobs, manufacturing jobs, particularly in the aviation industry, to have the right to buy houses, to seek a level of freedom that they had never experienced before.
And just like any other people, they took their celebration with them. Many of them settled in Seattle, Washington, of course, all over California and parts West, Denver, Colorado. That's how the celebration got from Texas to uniquely Texas thing. That's how it got to California and the West Coast. Some of those people migrated East and you can't stop people from traveling.
Wherever they traveled, they took their celebration with them, like Oklahoma and Arkansas. And you were talking about the people from the East Coast who traveled west. If they traveled to Arkansas and Oklahoma, Arkansas and Oklahoma African-Americans knew about Juneteenth and celebrated Juneteenth. And so now people from the East Coast know about Juneteenth. And that's how we got it.
But the point I want to make, the point I like the best is not only did they learn that they were free, but they figured out what to do with their freedom. They bought land, they commemorated every year and they used that time to celebrate, but they used that time to figure out, to learn about, and to gather together so that they could vote. And I'm telling you, it's not a coincidence that we're in this moment in an election year, a general election year.
Talking about Juneteenth. Because Juneteenth was not a national thing. It was a Galveston, Texas thing. But it's a national thing now and we need this moment. Well, you know, that's interesting because neither was the 40 acres and a mule a general thing. That was a field audit that Sherman issued down right near where that young man got killed by the police in Glynn County, Georgia.
I never knew that before. Yeah, that was Sherman's field order. And I don't know whether he did. I got to do some more reading whether he made that order because he was tired of all those Negroes following him all over the state and said, well, I'm going to give y'all 40 acres and a mule. But that's where that came from. Wow. And that's in a bad local country, too.
Spread all over the country and Spike Lee helped to spread it. Last night, I watched Do the Right Thing again. Oh my goodness. I didn't want to watch it, but I couldn't stop watching it. I've told you that Spike Lee did a short film where he cut the murder of George Floyd into the murder of Radio Raheem in Do the Right Thing.
It was shocking how close those, that fictional event and the real event were. And when I figured it out, it was 31 years apart. That was 31 years ago when Do the Right Thing came out. It was 1989. I saw Spike Lee on somebody's show and he talked about it. And they showed it short. Right.
And I think he did that from his office at home, but it was so shocking and poignant. I did not want to watch it. You know, I don't like to watch real serious stuff very late at night because it keeps me up all night. But I sat there and watched it. I couldn't stop watching it. We're in that moment where we got to do the right thing and not the right thing like Daniel Cameron, the attorney general for Kentucky, who's black.
and studying whether or not to charge those people who killed Breonna Taylor. Shot her eight times in her bed. Didn't even have a valid warrant. They were in the wrong place. The person already was in custody. Well, have you read or heard what prompted the shooting? I mean, here's an unarmed woman in the bed. Why would you have a need to shoot her? Well, the person that we're looking for, and I'm just guessing, but I'm going to do some research to see if it's right.
I'm just guessing that the person that they really thought they were looking for, who was already in custody, was an African-American. And they came in with guns blazing because they just didn't care. They had a warrant and they just didn't care. Remember Catherine Johnston in Atlanta? Yeah. They were busting in the wrong house with a no-knock warrant and started shooting like they were in the Wild, Wild West.
They were looking for an African American, but it happened not to be that 92-year-old lady. And no, not warrants are inherently dangerous to people of color. At least that's what I think. So it's not like she drew a gun on them? No, she didn't attempt to shoot. And her boyfriend was a legal carrier. When they busted in the door, he did shoot because they didn't announce themselves as they should have. Ah, the boyfriend fired a weapon.
But he was in his own home. In his own home, in the bed, in the middle of the night, and you're supposed to be the king of your own castle. How was he to know that it was the police? As a matter of fact, I listened to his 911 call. He called the police. He said someone is broken in my home. Were they in the same bed?
Yes, someone has broken in my home and I think they shot my girlfriend. He didn't even know at that point that it was the police who broke in his home because they didn't announce themselves. Oh, God. One of them got shot as not in a serious condition. One of the officers was shot, but he was not injured seriously. But they shot Breonna eight times. And see, that's what I say to my friends who think they, my black friends who think they believe in Second Amendment rights.
It's not going to be even, Stephen. No. And we can't shoot ourselves out of the situation that we're in. I believe everybody has a right to protect their home, but guns are more likely to hurt you in the home than to protect you in your home. And that's just the truth. Can I say a word about the holiday? Go right ahead. You know, we spent a lot of time and energy trying to get from the time I was in law school until
whenever Greenville County adopted the King holiday. Yeah, that was in the 2000s. But I don't want any more holidays. I don't mind them, but they don't count for anything. Well, I'm not against it, but that's not what I want to spend my time doing. And don't think that it's going to buy you any credit if you are in the white power structure.
We need jobs. We need education. We need health care. If the pandemic has laid anything open for public inspection, it is the brutality of the police to us. We need to do something about qualified immunity. We need, there's a study that came out today. A young black boy has written a book talking about how the same house in a white neighborhood, the very same house, even after you control for crime and every other kind of thing,
that is worth 20% less than a house in a white neighborhood. Same house. The black neighborhood is worth 20% less. Yes. We need, and you know, I don't need, I have you and I have my grandchildren. I have plenty of friends and relatives. We need economic repair. So Jan, let's make this our last topic. Let's talk about reparations.
Well, let me ask you this question. Can we talk about reparations in this moment, or do we need to keep our mouths shut on that issue for some larger issues? I don't think there is. I've become convinced that there isn't a larger issue than reparations. What I do worry about, though, if we make it the center of our argument at this time, it may keep us from getting other goals that can only be had this time. And by that, I mean the occupant of the White House.
If there's one thing that public polls show is that 80% of white folks are adamantly opposed to reparations. So we've got some work to do. Those children who are marching for Black Lives Matter are not quite convinced that it is appropriated with justice. And I think that's translated into, I think they know there's some price tag, but it's translated into the concept of defund the police.
I would rather see it be fun things that we need. Well, when you press them on it, that's where they go. But I'm not talking about the black ones. I'm talking about the white ones. They'll march with you for fair policing. But I don't think they're going to march with you right, not right yet, about getting rid of their trust funds or being taxed to pay. You know, they estimate it would be a few trillion dollars to give black reparations now. Mm-hmm.
But it would be a stimulus to the United States economy. Of course it would.
You know, it's just a sharing of the wealth. And if anybody would share the wealth with the rest of the country, it would be us. And I'm not saying it to be flippant, but we would spend the money on houses. We spend the money on education. We spend it on jobs. But like you said, there's more. I'd like to see historically black colleges and universities be put on equal footing with other universities.
I want to see them endowed. I want to see every HBCU with their own pocket of money so they can take care of themselves. I would like to see that, too. I think about South Carolina State University that has given so much to this country. They have created more African-American generals than any other college than West Point.
And West Point just in recent years exceeded the graduation of more black generals than South Carolina State, this university now, only because West Point now has started admitting black people to their college. But South Carolina State gave a whole lot of military people their beginning. And those people have risen in the ranks, several generals, colonels, and all other ranks, high ranks.
but South Carolina State University does not get the same funding per capita of Clemson University.
or University of South Carolina. And the only difference is South Carolina State University is African-American. It's the university with South Carolina State College. Then that Jim Clyburn and his wife graduated from, they graduated state Supreme Court justices. They've graduated all kinds of people. Excellent university. We can't get the funding because they're Black.
It's a state university. I want to see that. I like for all these HBCUs to be endowed. I like for them to be supported like North Carolina A&T is supported by North Carolina. South Carolina State University is not supported.
in that way by the state of South Carolina. And most of them are struggling. Many of them are struggling. So that's one area. But my larger point is I don't need symbols. I need economic strength. I need every black bank to become a federal depository institution so that some of the federal government money is housed there to stabilize black banks.
I need infrastructure investments in black neighborhoods. I need the things that will, it'll never be equal. Do you know that a white child's net worth the day he is born is $80,000? And a black child's net worth is negative. And how's that for an uneven playing field? In a capitalist society of people without capital or at a distinct level,
political health at a disadvantage every kind of way because of your economic deprivation. We were turned out of slavery. We ended slavery.
Reconstruction lasted for what, 1865 to 1870 or thereabouts? Right. It was over by 1876 for sure with the Tilden Hayes Compromise. But we've been on now a good while and we enjoy talking to each other. As you can see, we've been having these conversations for a very long time and we want to continue having them with you.
But for today, for this day, we have to bring it to a close. We encourage you, do everything you can to make sure that you and your family and everyone you know is registered and votes and studies the issues so that we can continue this movement and turn it from a historic moment to a true movement for justice and equality.
And not just marching because we're in pain, but marching because we know we can turn this pain to power. You've been listening to Sisters-in-Law, the podcast, episode five.
