Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
Hello. Welcome to the second episode of Sisters-in-Law. We are real sisters, real lawyers, and we like to have good conversation, and we're glad that you would join us today. Although there's not much to be glad about, this is a very sad and sober season for the United States and for the globe. Today, of course, we're going to talk about Minneapolis, Minnesota.
and some of the things that we ought to be thinking about during this time. My real sister is on the phone. Hello, Davida. Hey, Jan. I say hello, and it's about the happiest two words I've said recently since the killing of George Floyd. Last episode, we were talking about Ahmaud Arbery, and there have been a few killings by police of unarmed African Americans in the week that ensued.
But we're here to talk about what's going on with George Floyd. Finally, the officer who put his knee on George Floyd's neck for several minutes for some unknown reason, he put his knee on George Floyd's neck for eight minutes and 46 seconds. Derek Michael Chauvin, 44-year-old police officer in Minneapolis, Minnesota, was finally charged with a crime
on Friday, May 29th. But I want to put the prosecutor who came up with the charge, who decided what to charge Derek Michael Chauvin with on trial. I'm very disappointed in the charge that came down. Through the week, I heard the prosecutor, the attorney for the state of Minnesota talk about
He couldn't rush to judgment that things had to be investigated, that he had to make the right charge and learn a whole lot about the case that was not obvious to him, but was obvious to the rest of the world before a charge would be brought. And finally, after all of that deliberation and
and dissemination, in my opinion, he came up with the charge of third degree murder. We're going to talk a little bit about third degree murder and what it means, what third degree murder in Minnesota actually is. We're going to talk about the other charge, second degree manslaughter. But I really believe very strongly that the charge was insufficient.
Third-degree murder is a crime that does not involve intent. And we'll talk more about what that means, but intent is a very, very important part of criminal law. Without intent, there's very little criminal liability. Intent means that the perpetrator
acted intentionally, I don't mean to describe it using the same word, but acted knowing what he or she was doing and intending or meaning to do a thing to another person in this case. Intent does not mean that the perpetrator meant to do what actually happened. Let me break that down. To commit murder, you don't have to intend to murder a person.
The intent that is necessary is the intent to shoot the gun or to stab a person or to put your knee on a person's neck for eight minutes and 46 seconds. You don't have to intend for the person to die, but you have to intend to do the thing that caused the death.
And that's why I think the charge of murder third degree was wrong in this case. And I'll bring it down even more elegantly. But what I was thinking was, part of it did he
Did he not intend to put his weight on his back? Did he not intend to put his knee on his neck? Did he not intend to ignore the nurse who was begging and pleading to take his pulse and give him some medical attention? Which part did he not intend? With that in a depraved way, and depraved means somebody who is totally corrupted, to act in a depraved way, it's
that death could arise from the things that he did do. Well, let me quit being so emotional and talk about the Minnesota statute. It's Minnesota Statute 609.195, murder in the third degree. Whoever, without intent to affect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others
and evincing a depraved mind without regard for human life is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years. Well, let's break it down a little bit. Whoever, well, whoever we're talking about is Derek Michael Chauvin, and we shouldn't forget his name either. He's not the only one, but he is one whose name we should remember. Whoever without intent...
to affect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous, where the act that appeared to be eminently dangerous was kneeling on George Floyd's neck for eight minutes and 46 seconds and evincing a depraved mind. Well, I would argue in my trial against the prosecutor, the state attorney, is that he demonstrated a depraved mind
Because if you watch the video, one of the several videos that we have now, Derek Michael Chauvin had his knee on George Floyd's neck for eight minutes and 46 seconds. That's not disputed. He had his hands in his pockets and he appeared to be mugging at the several cameras that were trained on him. That is what it looked like without regard for human life. Well, I would say in my trial against the prosecutor,
There was no regard for human life. That's true enough. Because if he had regarded human life, he would have listened to George Floyd when George Floyd asked him to please let him up. He said the word please. He said, I can't breathe. And Derek Michael Shelvin was depraved in mind because he said, oh, you can breathe. You couldn't talk if you couldn't breathe and continue to hold his knee on George Floyd's neck.
Other officers were on the scene, at least two other officers. And one said, don't we need to turn him over on his side? He said, no, he needs to stay right where he is. That's what Derek Michael Shelvin said. The other one said, don't you need to let him up? He said, no. And those two officers watched him with his knee on George Floyd's neck for eight minutes and 46 seconds. Sounds like a whole lot of intent to me.
And then finally, when one of the other officers said he doesn't have a pulse, he checked his wrist and George Floyd did not have a pulse. But he didn't let it go to him. Derek Michael Shelvin kept his knee on George Floyd's neck for additional two minutes after George Floyd didn't have a pulse. I don't know any more intent than that.
I agree. He had a depraved mind and he did something very eminently dangerous to George Floyd. But what I don't agree with is there was no intent to cause death. Janice, the final nail in my prosecution against the prosecutor in bringing this charge of murder in the third degree forward.
is that George Floyd was accused of being resistant. He was accused of resisting arrest, that he didn't comply. Well, when we saw the video, the whole world saw the video, George Floyd had handcuffs on his hand the whole time. But that's not the final nail in this coffin, this prosecution against the prosecutor. The final nail of the squad car
One held his back, the other one held his feet, and Derek Michael Chauvin put his knee on George Floyd's neck for eight minutes and 46 seconds after George Floyd had been subdued and put in the car with handcuffs. That is murder. To commit murder intent means that you had no regard for human life,
There was no other outcome other than death or extreme bodily injury that could have happened from those actions.
And even when you had an opportunity to stop those actions, you did not stop. Even after George Floyd was non-responsive. That sounds like first degree murder to me. What does it sound like to you? Well, in some states they call it premeditation. And if you have an opportunity to lose your anger or your fury,
and consider your actions, but you proceed anyway in a manner that is illegal, that can be interpreted as premeditation, which is another way of saying intent. Yeah. It was foreseeable. Of course it was. Emotions that he set in force to put in his...
neck could result in death. Certainly that was foreseeable. So if it wasn't for that purpose, it wasn't to restrain him because he was already restrained. It wasn't because you were in fear of your life because he was already restrained. So for what purpose was this extreme method of control? I mean, any way you look at this, you look at up, down, around, and side, you come up with the same conclusion. I wonder though about some of the elements of the
of what might be the prosecution's case. There's been a mention of intoxication in the autopsy and pre-existing conditions. Here we go with those social determinants of health, but he had an underlying heart condition. Well, in civil law, but in civil law, take your person as you find them. So if you injure a person who has heart disease,
You owe them just as much money, if not more, than if they were healthy. Because you are presumed to know. The burden of proof is on the person. To say that this was out of the norm or this was par for the course for this particular person. Maybe that chokehold wouldn't have killed a healthy person. But he came there with whatever condition that he was in.
They talk about whether or not the venue might be a trouble, be problematic. It may be hard to get a jury that's impartial, but where can you get one that hadn't heard this story and seen that video? So those are just some of the things. And then there's a, they knew each other that maybe the defendant had a beef against Mr. Floyd of some sort. And what we know for sure, it was extreme violence.
Minneapolis to still have him on the force because of all the prior complaints, some of which they settled for cash settlements. Well, I heard that there were 12 complaints in this morning. New York Times, CNN and others are reporting that there were 18 prior complaints of excessive force or some misconduct on Derek Michael Sheldon's part.
Now, you talked about Derek Michael Chauvin and George Floyd might have known each other. Well, let's talk about how they might have known each other. Both of them worked at a nightclub, El Nuevo Rodeo, a Latin salsa club. Derek Michael Chauvin had worked there for 17 years. George Floyd had worked there for less time, but they both worked on the weekends.
And it's reported in the New York Times that the club was heavily trafficked by African-Americans who liked to dance, to salsa dance on the weekends. The owner of the club, which has now been sold, it was sold in January, said sometimes Chauvin was overly aggressive with African-American customers. She had to speak with him on various occasions about that, that his actions weren't appropriate for what he was trying to do.
Now that couple. I didn't know that. But it explains a lot, doesn't it? It explains that. That gives him a motive. It gives him a motive. And it's not coincidental, in my opinion, that these two men work at the same club on the weekends. It's the owner of the club, the former owner, she sold it. But the former owner of the club said, well, they probably didn't cross paths.
Probably. But they probably did cross paths. They were people in common and they did the same job. Both of them were bouncers. So it's hard to imagine that they would not have crossed paths. And you don't know whether he said something to Chauvin about his behavior. Well, I can say this. There's some reason why.
Three officers subdued one man, had him in handcuffs, had him in the backseat of a squad car, presumably to arrest him, but then pulled him out and put him on the ground, one at the back, one at the feet, and one with his knee on the neck.
If the motive was to arrest him and take him to a police department to be processed for an arrest, why did they take him out of the car? Something happened to make Derek Michael Chauvin and the other two officers take him out of the car and put him on the ground. Maybe that was the plan all along. Or maybe Chauvin said something to him. I would argue if I were an attorney in the trial of this case,
that Chauvin recognized him and said something to him, or that Mr. Floyd recognized Chauvin and said something to him.
But there is no legitimate reason for the officers who supposedly were going to arrest George Floyd to remove him from the car after he had been subdued. And it makes a lie out of that argument that he was resisting arrest. He wasn't resisting in the backseat of the car with handcuffs on. And let me explain why. Many of you have not been in the backseat of a squad car.
But you can't get out of the backseat of the squad car unless somebody takes you out. And by somebody, I mean the officers. If you're in the backseat of the squad car and the door is closed, you can't get out. Do you think it's possible that there was something that happened earlier?
on their way to the car the first time, before they put the handcuffs on, it gave them what they would consider sufficient provocation to restrain him in the first place. You know, they say that he resisted arrest. Perhaps there's an angle we haven't seen yet. Well, I think that he did not want to be arrested. He made statements.
Saying don't put me in the car. I don't want to go. But simple talking is not resisting arrest. But at that point he was already in handcuffs. At that point he was already in handcuffs. I'm talking about before they put the handcuffs on.
I think before they put the handcuffs, according to the clerk at the store and those who stood by several videos, he did. And when I say he, I mean, George Floyd did say, I'm not getting in the car. I don't want to be arrested. Words to that effect. But I think that he already had handcuffs on. But the reason that's not so important is that.
But before they put him on the ground, he was in the car with handcuffs on and he did not get out on his own. They pulled him out. The officers pulled him out and put him on the ground. There is no reason under the sun they should have pulled him out of the car, but they did. And that to me.
makes everything else that the officers say a lie about resisting arrest. If he resisted arrest in the beginning, he was not resisting arrest in the backseat of the car with the handcuffs on. No, he was not. And there was no reason to pull him out of that car until they got to the police department. They pulled him out of the car
in my opinion, so Chauvin could do what he wanted to do to him, which was put his knee on his neck, one officer holding his back, another officer holding his feet, and Chauvin with his hands in his pocket. Now, if someone is resisting arrest, an officer's first tools would be his hands, but Chauvin's hands were in his pockets and his knee was
Well, he certainly didn't look like he was in any kind of apprehension of bodily harm or threat. He looked like he was relaxed and playing some kind of video game, some type of sport. But his hands in his pocket, if you're trying to keep somebody from resisting or wiggling, the first thing an officer would or should use would be his or her hands. Exactly.
I've never seen an arrest or subduing a person when the officer's hands are in their pockets. And I've been living a long time and I've seen a whole bunch of arrests and I've seen a whole bunch of videos. But the only reason that he could have had for taking George Floyd out of the car was so he could harass him. And obviously so he could put his knee on his neck. But what I really don't understand, Jan,
and I'm going to quit talking in a while so you can talk about the UN, is the two minutes and 53 seconds after Officer Coon checked George Floyd's wrist and said he had no pulse. You know what I think that was? I thought about that immediately, too. He was making sure he was dead. Which is another element toward intent. Exactly. And let me close out this section and calm myself down by saying this.
In my prosecution against the prosecutor, prosecution requires probable cause. Probable cause means a crime was committed and it's more likely than not that the suspect was involved in the commission of the crime.
Probable cause does not mean you make your entire case and you think of all the facts, the elements, the defense, the prosecution, and you weigh all of that before you charge a person. The only thing the prosecutor needed was probable cause.
But it appears that he gave Derek Michael Chauvin, for some reason, a trial before the trial and eliminated the most serious charges before Chauvin was tried. Let me tell you how prosecution goes. Prosecution goes with probable cause. A crime was committed and the suspect, more likely than not, was involved in the commission of the crime. That's enough for an arrest. That's all you need for an arrest. And that's all you need for an indictment.
The second part is prosecutors charge from the top of the list, not from the bottom. Typically, for example, if I were prosecuted in this case, I would have charged anybody with murder, not to be unfair, but because there's something called lesser included offenses where murder, first degree, second degree, third degree manslaughter,
are the same charge, the lower charges are lesser included offenses. So when that charge goes to a jury trial, if it ever goes to a jury trial, the person is charged with murder first degree, but a jury has the right to find the defendant guilty of murder second degree or murder third degree or manslaughter or any of the lesser included offenses. Well,
What the prosecutor did was eliminate the possibility that Derek Michael Chauvin could be convicted of murder, even if the jury found evidence that he was guilty of first degree murder. So he limited Derek Michael Chauvin's criminal liability and he should not have done it. It was improper.
So I'm due, Jan, for the day. Well, I agree with everything that you have said because certainly the prosecutor gets to make, that's within his purview, what to charge. But when that prosecutor abuses that authority to decide on the charge, then what do you do? You know, that's one of the reasons that
we think about the United Nations and other venues, maybe the Congress, but certainly the United Nations has something they call the Committee to Eliminate Racial Discrimination. It is in the form of a treaty that the United States signed.
The last time the United States reported on that obligation to eliminate all forms of racial discrimination was in 2014 when Barack Obama was still president. As a matter of fact, it was November of 14, almost 15. His term was more than half. His second term was more than half over.
This administration has not reported on their efforts, if any. And the Obama administration report was very specific. It named case after case. The one that stuck with me was the gentleman in Charleston who was shot in the back. Walter Scott's case. That case had been indicted but had not been decided at the time the Obama administration made its final report.
This administration has refused to even address the issue. And as we know, Walter Scott's killer was not convicted. So there is a lot of unfinished business at the United Nations with the United States. And in the past, the United Nations has been used successfully, if not to reverse U.S. policy, but to influence it and to educate the American people, which is the ultimate check and balance that
that this was an issue worthy of discussion and consideration. So I think that those organizations like Delta Sigma Theta and NCNW, who are sanctioned by the United Nations, should make a report on their own, which is possible to do. You know that because we were there in 2014. Yeah, and I'd like to go back again, Jan.
Well, we may get that opportunity is what I'm saying. The Obama administration did something that was potentially very powerful and important that was immediately disbanded by this administration. And that is the pattern and practice investigations that they did in Baltimore and in Ferguson. Those investigations
investigations led to consent decrees, court orders that both sides agreed to uphold and maintain. This administration has scrapped not only those pending
investigations, those pending remedies to the practices and patterns that they found, but also to throw out the mechanism itself so that it no longer is observed. And it hollowed out the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department. Those actions are inconsistent with a state, a nation, that is attempting to eliminate all forms of racial discrimination.
So I think it's worthwhile to pull out the Obama report, take a look at it. I'll try to post it at Sisters-in-Law. And then to compare that to the actions of the current administration would give you a good gauge of where we are in terms of attempts to eliminate sanctioned, government-sanctioned discrimination in the criminal justice system. Well, Janice, I think that it's a necessary step. You know I believe in it. Aside from Geneva being one of the most pleasant cities on earth,
It's a place of peace and it's a place where we can seek redress and take this issue beyond the confines of the United States. Now, being realistic, the United States, especially in this administration, has resisted the U.N. It refuses to pay its dues in full or on time. It denigrates the United Nations like it does all other countries.
international organizations that might form a bulwark for democracy. This morning or yesterday, the president announced that the United States was withdrawing from the World Health Organization.
It already withdrew from the Paris Peace Accords that we're going to go it alone. And that's one of the reasons I don't want to go too far afield that we had no allies in Europe in fighting this pandemic because we had shown ourselves unfriendly and unsupportive, even questioned the existence of NATO.
It's not a very auspicious time for international governance and international law, but having said that, I think it's incumbent upon us to act. The reports don't only cover
excessive use of police force, although there is a good bit there, very specific information about cases in the United States. It also covers voting rights and employment rights and the right to clean air and water. So it's a vehicle that is available to us that has been underutilized. And that's one place that we can put pressure because clearly, even though we all disagree with the rioting and the looting and the burning that occurred in the wake
of the uh mr floyd's death it is um it was that pressure that brought even this weak indictment i believe i think it was that pressure i listened to uh reverend jackson as a matter of fact i saw reverend jesse jackson on television and um even with his health concerns and his age and
Everything that's on his mind, he had on his mask and stated that protests are necessary to bring attention to this. Without the protests, there would be no attention to the issue of George Floyd in particular, and in general, the killing of unarmed African Americans by the police. And so I believe in protests. I'm sorry that some of the protests have turned violent, but
I know that the protests brought the attention which is needed to address these issues. How much more can we take? Janice, you said something to me earlier that made me think. We were sitting on a powder keg of pandemic, something that's unprecedented in the lives of almost anybody who's still alive right now. The economic crisis which ensued and now this.
Ahmaud Arbery, now George Floyd, how much can we take as a people? And it was just ripe for an outpouring of emotion and a quest for justice. What do we do and where do we go? I'm thankful that you know about the UN, about CERD, and you can give us that information.
But some of the young people I've seen interviewed on television are saying things like, what do we do? We can't just sit at home. What can we do when these things happen and how can we stop them? We've been telling young people, get registered, vote. That's one thing. But there has to be more. There has to be an acknowledgement and a realization on the part of the majority, or at least the majority in power, that these killings are immoral.
And not only that, they're illegal and they should stop. I'm not one of those people that wants revenge. But can you imagine a black officer putting his knee on a white person's neck over a twenty dollar dispute until the person was dead? No, you can't imagine that because that never could happen in America. They would have strung him up. And I don't believe in stringing people up, but they would have strung him up.
And so I'm thankful to organizations and individuals who are coming together to bring attention to this situation. But we've got to know some next steps. And I'm glad you brought the UN forward. But for those of us who might not be able to go to Geneva or speak before the UN, what can we do? Where do we go now for redress?
Well, you named something that's very important. Everybody should vote. And not just for president and vice president, but for who the circuit judges will be in your county and who the prosecutors will be. We see how much discretion prosecutors have for good or for bad.
We see how they get to decide certain things. That means we have to get involved in choosing who those persons are because most of them, most of the state level prosecutors are elected, not appointed. So people who live in those jurisdictions have a voice in that. There are other long-term remedies that we have to consider. We don't teach American history from a balanced point of view.
It's taught as if it's the story of old white men. And that certainly is not true. And it leaves naive folk with a false impression of what the United States has been and what the relationships between the races have been and how that has influenced current policy to this day. We like to think that we're beyond certain things, but some of it, I think it's an apt description to call it a virus because it just pops up every once in a while.
And under as much stress as all Americans have been under, it's not surprising that the race element pops through. There was a lot of anger when the first health statistics started surfacing, but it wasn't something that you could easily take to court. Although I do believe that ultimately there will be a fund established to compensate the victims of coronavirus, and those awardees from that fund will necessarily be predominantly people of color,
because they were the ones who were predominantly out working throughout the pandemic. A court just ruled Friday, I think it was maybe Thursday, that if you are afraid of catching the virus and you say, I can't come to work because I'm afraid I'll get sick and I've got old parents and young children, that that is not a ground for claiming unemployment benefits, for example. That's a wrong decision. There's so much of this that is being
badly decided from the White House all the way down. I must admit the governors have stood in the gap to do the best they can. But what will we do a month from now if instead of 100,000 fatalities, there are 200,000? All it would take was if there's 3,000 deaths a day for the next 30 days, that would be 90,000 additional deaths.
Will we then say, oh, we we've ended quarantine and stay at home too soon? This has got a long way to go before it all plays out. It does have a long way to go. Janice, I prosecuted the case against the prosecutor in Minnesota. But while I was doing that, I looked up Minnesota statute six zero nine point one eight five murder in the first degree.
Whoever does any of the following is guilty of murder in the first degree, causes the death of a human being with premeditation and with intent.
to affect the death of a person, of another. I think that fits Derek Michael Chauvin very well. Obviously, he had intent because he had a long time to consider what he was doing. As a matter of fact, he was considering what he was going to do when he pulls George Floyd out of that squad car with handcuffs on and put him on the ground for eight minutes and 46 seconds, kept his knee on George Floyd's neck.
Two minutes and 53 seconds after he was non-responsive. And I went on down and read more of the statute. Causes the death of a human being while committing, conspiring to commit, or attempting to commit a felony crime to further terrorism. And the death occurs under circumstances manifesting an extreme indifference to human life. Well,
I could make a case, and just about every African-American attorney in America could make a case, that what African-Americans experienced to the large part from the criminal justice system, and not just the justice system, but from some police officers, is a form of terrorism. There was obviously a conspiracy. It appears obvious to me that three officers were out there.
three officers co-signed in a way to what Derek Michael Chauvin has done. And to my knowledge, the other two haven't been arrested yet. Have you heard any breaking news about the other two officers being arrested? No. They should have been because not only was Derek Michael Chauvin breaking the law by killing somebody,
He was violating police policy by putting his knee on a suspect's neck. That's just not criminal procedure. And the other two officers knew. Not only did Chauvin know, the other two officers knew as well. That's why they made statements. When they were standing there as if they were on a guard or on watch, as if they had been stationed there to make sure that he couldn't be
He couldn't move and to make sure that he couldn't be seen by those that were beyond them. There was a crowd that gathered around them that asked the officer to get off his neck, stop it. He can't breathe. Stop. You're going to kill him. But they went forward with that. What I see as a conspiracy, even though they knew it was not police policy,
They already had the man subdued. And they knew it was likely to result in serious injury. They knew that the man was already subdued. They knew it was over a $20 dispute. And he was saying he couldn't breathe. I have seen defendants charged with intentional infliction of serious bodily harm or assault if they narrowly miss a police officer when they're pulling away in a vehicle.
I mean, this idea that there was no intent because all of his behavior, intent is difficult to prove. Most people don't stand up and say, I'm going to kill him. But you have to infer from their actions. Their actions are consistent with wanting him to be pulling him out of the car, stationing his fellow officers to be there as lookouts. Almost it seemed from the from the film. And the other one holding his feet.
It looked like they planned what they did. Certainly, there was reportedly a nurse who said 13 times, let me take his pulse. Let me give him some assistance, who was ignored. The failure to immediately summon the backup and EMTs, all of it, all of the actions are consistent with wanting death to occur. And so nobody's going to say, this is my intent. Yeah, you know,
But your intent can be determined, as I said, from your actions. Nobody makes an announcement. And intent, premeditation, doesn't mean you studied it for a week or even a day and decided to do it. No, no. In a moment. And it certainly can be in eight minutes and 46 seconds. Okay.
Yeah, that is shocking. Making me so mad, the prosecutor with all his authority, with all his prosecutorial discretion, which I talk about all the time, decided to use his great authority and discretion to protect the police officer from murder in the first degree. That's exactly right. But isn't that also the same as it was down in Florida?
Yeah. I mean, in Georgia. Oh, no. Well, Trayvon Martin, too. But they offered those. They I believe they offered those defendants a defense. So, no, what you were doing was a citizen's arrest. And we're going to close the books on it because that was just a citizen's arrest. That's all that was from the beginning. But they gave the police gave those people who kill Ahmaud Arbery.
a defense. And that's not their role. Their role is to charge based on the facts and let the judge and the jury handle the rest. But they decided to cover them. And there is no, in most cases, a prosecutorial indiscretion or abuse of discretion.
There is little to no recourse except elections. And for federal prosecutors, you have to unelect the attorney general, which means unelecting the president. But in state prosecutions, the only thing you can do is vote. There's no body that you can take a prosecutor before. Well, they can be sued and also.
criminal convictions and prosecutors actions can be reviewed upon appeal. And I'm going to take you back to a case, which I will never forget from Durham, North Carolina. You remember the Duke university students who were charged with
They were charged with some sexual related crimes. But that was a rare thing. And some very rich parents. Some white boys from Duke who were accused of raping, I believe, an African-American girl who was said to be a stripper. And the prosecutor was prosecuted and the conviction was appealed. And that person who was the prosecutor is no longer a lawyer. That's right. He was disbarred for that.
For abusing his description. But that's the only case I have heard of. Because I don't know of any others. Because that's a rare thing. Well, Jance, I hope you've been keeping our time because I have not. I want to end on a high note. It's hard. I think it's time for a little bit of a pause. I think it's time for a pause and it might be time for our show to wind up.
But I haven't been keeping time. I'm going to a protest. There are two protests in Greenville, South Carolina today. And there's one tomorrow. Since we were recording today, I'm going to the protest tomorrow. There are protests all over the United States. I'm praying that no one else is hurt.
I heard, I have not read, and I'm trying to look it up right now, that Target has issued a statement that they understand the pressure and the grievances that are being expressed. It was a very responsible statement from what I've heard.
It hasn't been my favorite store, but if the statement is what I've heard that it is, I'm going to start shopping at Target. You know, these stores that are being looted, I don't want anybody to loot. I don't think that solves anything. But these stores that are being looted have insurance. And so I live in a black neighborhood and there are not as many grocery stores and chain stores as you might be accustomed to in other neighborhoods, although the neighborhood is neat and clean and relatively safe.
I would hate for somebody to burn down the large grocery store that is here because there wouldn't be, I'd have to travel a bit further to shop. And then even though there is insurance, the next time they get ready to rebuild or when they rebuild, they might decide to rebuild someplace else. They're being nice now, but I promise you they will take that into consideration. They may rebuild right there on that spot. And I hope they do.
But people should take into consideration one of the reasons our neighborhoods are not as prosperous as they could be is that there are too few investors. There are too few companies and organizations willing to bet that they can make money there successfully. Not because the customers are not there. If they do that, that's just because they can't see and they can't count. Or they have certain prejudices about who the black consumer is. But
We don't need disinvestment from our community. We need more investment. You're right about that. I was on a podcast, not a podcast, on a Facebook presentation. It was a Zoom presentation for our candidates forum just the other day, Thursday. And there were
two African-American candidates and one white candidate, they were all running for the same seat. And we didn't know about some of the things that have taken place. Certainly, Eric, I'm sorry, Mr. Sheldon had not been charged yet. But we were talking about, in general, the way police treat African-Americans.
And the white candidate for now running for the same seat said, well, I'm so glad that hasn't happened in Greenville. And the two hosts who I was one of the host and other host and and the two other candidates were African-American. And they were like, of course, it happens in Greenville all the time. It happens all over the United States all the time. And this was just a touch point.
for expression of that. I don't know any African Americans, even Barack Obama, who has not experienced treatment that was not appropriate by the police. And that's not just our imaginations. And I believe the killing of George Floyd was a touchpoint to release all of that frustration. Throughout my life, even when I was a prosecutor, I was harassed by the police.
I remember one occasion I went left my home and went down to the law enforcement center to view some evidence in a drug case. It was at night and they had brought in a big a lot of evidence that was drugs. And I went down to look at it.
On my way home, police followed me and they followed me for several miles. And I became scared because it was in the middle of the night. So finally, I turned off in our old neighborhood, Jan, and went down into an area where I knew was a dead end and turned my car around and waited on them. And they followed me down to a dead end. And the officer cursed me because I went down in the dead end and waited on them.
But they would follow me because I was African-American. I didn't get hurt, thank God. But I could tell you 10 incidents where a police officer in the middle of the daytime stopped me and pulled my backseat out of my car because they thought I had drugs and detained me. You know, that happened to me too when I had that sports car. Right.
And so we have all experienced this. And for some reason, the majority community either ignores it, the best ones sometimes ignore it, and the others condone it because they think that we deserve that type of treatment. I think that's why this is a little bit different than some of the prior incidents that are similar in that we had such vivid evidence of
Right. Right. Americans, 20 percent of the population, but there's 50 percent of the deaths. You have that. And then layered on top of that, you have two shootings of unarmed African-Americans with video, not just a second of video, but several minutes of video to back up the claim. So now indisputable that the president is dead.
And yet and still, you can't get simple justice. And it just lit a powder keg and it's reverberating across this state because I say something a little disrespectful sometimes. I say the police are just the security guards. The people who are making the decisions inside the state houses and inside the homes. These are the people they sent out on the street not well paid enough, not educated enough to send out to keep the law. But those are not the people making the law.
and tolerating the law and tolerating officers like Mr. Sheldon being on the force with 18 complaints. That's a systemic problem. That is not a problem of Mr. Sheldon by himself. These prosecutions are a reflection of what the racial in the United States at this time.
Mr. Chauvin is a hired hand, was a hired hand. He's been fired, thank goodness. But the prosecutor was elected by the people, and we have to really pay attention to those elections. And more African Americans need to run for prosecutor.
Every prosecutor's office has appointed prosecutors, but they are appointed by the elected prosecutor. So if you elect the right person, perhaps they'll appoint the right people to work under them. That is so true. We have to be involved at that level. Well, Jan, I think we've taken up our time. I hope we've shed some light on this situation.
I hope there's not another killer next week. I'm going to a protest. I pray it won't turn violent, but I feel like I have to put my walking shoes on and get out and let my voice be heard. Well, the Bible says pour out your body a living sacrifice. That's what that's about. Well, it's not that lofty, but I got to do something. And I pray that
Those in power will take notice, not just of me, but of all of the people all across this country who are expressing outrage at this. While our president is saying, you loot, we shoot. We got to get him out of office. That's all it is to him. That's just the wrong attitude. He's the wrong person. We need somebody who's sane and engaged and morally centered. We don't have that. That's just me talking.
Well, you got any final remarks you want to make? No, none other than encourage people to continue observing social distance and wearing your mask. They do make a difference. Use common sense. You don't have to go to the beauty parlor just because the governor says that you can go to the beauty parlor.
Yeah, stop being a target. I'm wearing my mask everywhere, even in the office. I have bought a box of masks for everybody comes to my office. They got to take a mask and sit about 10 feet away from me.
Because six feet is kind of misleading. Actually, a sneeze or a cough can go 10 feet. So use your social distance. We are the sisters-in-law, real sisters, real lawyers. And we hope we've given you some really good talk. Tune in for our podcast. We like to post every Saturday. We hope that you have learned from this. And in all you're getting, we hope that you have. And understanding. Okay. Can you? I think that's it.
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