cover of episode What Trump 2.0 Means for Tech +  A.I. Made Me Basic + HatGPT!

What Trump 2.0 Means for Tech + A.I. Made Me Basic + HatGPT!

2024/11/8
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Casey Noon
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Kashmir Hill
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Kevin Roos
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Kevin Roos和Casey Noon讨论了特朗普连任对科技行业的影响,包括对埃隆·马斯克、加密货币、大型科技公司和AI监管的影响。他们认为,特朗普政府对加密货币和AI的监管将较为宽松,大型科技公司将试图讨好特朗普政府以减轻反垄断压力,但谷歌可能例外。他们还讨论了预测市场在预测选举结果方面的准确性。Kashmir Hill分享了她让AI掌控她一周生活的实验,探讨了AI在日常生活中的应用潜力和局限性。她发现AI倾向于做出平均化的选择,这可能会导致生活变得平淡无奇,但也承认AI在某些方面很有用。 Kashmir Hill详细描述了她让AI掌控她一周生活的实验过程,包括AI如何决定她的购物清单、行程安排、发型等。她还谈到了家人对该实验的反应,以及AI在实验过程中学习了她的一些信息。她认为AI在某些方面很有用,例如提供信息和建议,但不会长期依赖它来做决策。她还讨论了AI可能存在的偏差和潜在风险,例如AI可能会受到广告商的影响,导致其推荐结果不再客观。

Deep Dive

Key Insights

Why did Elon Musk's relationship with Donald Trump become more favorable after the election?

Elon Musk's support for Trump's campaign and his substantial donations likely secured him influence and potential positions within the administration, currying favor and potentially selecting regulators favorable to his companies.

How might the incoming Trump administration's stance on crypto differ from the previous Biden administration's?

The Trump administration is expected to be more crypto-friendly due to campaign donations from pro-crypto groups, potentially replacing SEC Chair Gary Gensler with someone more lenient towards the industry.

What are the potential implications of Trump's victory for antitrust cases against big tech companies?

Most tech companies may see their antitrust issues either disappear or improve under Trump, with the likely firing of FTC Chair Lina Khan and clearing out DOJ officials who pursued cases against big tech.

How did Kashmir Hill's family react to her experiment of outsourcing her decisions to AI for a week?

Her family found the experiment amusing, with her daughters enjoying the AI's endless answering of questions and suggesting the name 'Spark' for the AI assistant.

What were some of the limitations Kashmir Hill encountered during her AI decision-making experiment?

Hill felt the AI's decisions were overly basic and average, leading to a boring week. The AI also had hallucinations, such as incorrectly explaining hand gestures to her daughter.

Why might AI decision-making tools become less reliable over time?

As companies realize the influence of AI on consumer decisions, they may start gaming the system to promote their products, potentially corrupting the AI's recommendations similarly to how Google search results have been influenced by ads.

What unexpected obstacle halted Meta's plan for a nuclear-powered AI data center?

The discovery of a rare species of bees near the proposed data center site led to environmental and regulatory challenges, ultimately thwarting the project.

Why did the radio station in Poland stop using AI-generated presenters?

The station faced backlash after an AI presenter conducted an interview with a dead Polish poet, leading to complaints from fans and the decision to discontinue using AI hosts.

Chapters
Donald Trump's re-election has significant implications for the tech industry. Elon Musk emerges as a potential winner, given his close ties to Trump. The administration's stance on crypto is expected to shift towards a more favorable one, potentially leading to a resurgence in the crypto market. Big tech companies, except Google, anticipate a reprieve from antitrust challenges.
  • Elon Musk is a potential winner in Trump's re-election.
  • Trump's administration is expected to be more crypto-friendly.
  • Big tech companies, except Google, may see relief from antitrust issues.

Shownotes Transcript

Translations:
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you sent me a very confusing link um the other day, which was that we are apparently the inspiration for a line of men's underwear what's going on?

So if you over to amazon, you can find an item that is called the casey Kevin meant lace g strings and dogs, sexy launch ray. And of course, that was very confusing as to why our names are now large aboard.

But I find this where you just browsing for things called casey Kevin on amazon.

always looking for names, search for that, but then also a hard fork listener set IT to me and say, hey, like, we're you aware of this? So I thought about IT for about two seconds. And then I, like, continue look into the swept. And I realized the reason that it's called casey Kevin is because they have been abbreviated ck all over the packaging and thus compete with calvin cline, the number one underwear brand. And so it's essentially our names are being used to perpetrator fraud.

Well, have you investigated these at all? Do they look like good underwear?

I'm wearing them now. They are incredibly comfortable and a very brazil fabric.

I'm Kevin. I tack callers at the new york times. I'm casing him from a former and this is k this week what truck two point o means for tech. Then the times cashmere ill joins us to talk about the week she's spent letting A, I make every decision for her. And finally some election free at P, P.

T.

What cases? Where are you?

How are you? Well, Kevin, I am at home ah in southern california with my family. My sweet uncle mike passed away this week and I was at his funeral, which means that the election was only the second worst thing that happened to me this week. How are you doing?

Uh you know i'm OK um especially compared to that I am sorry about john cle um I stress at my son's entire collection of halloween Candy except I left him a couple things that I don't like and um otherwise we are just persevering. Uh, we are coming up on twenty four hours since the election. I'm curious like how it's settling for you.

I think that IT is still pretty surprising to me, although I don't know, surprising probably isn't the right word. I truly had no idea what was going to happen in this election. So mostly I been just trying to protect myself a little bit forward in time and try to think through what we should expect come january when trump comes back into power again.

yes. So let's talk about that today because I don't think we have much to add or offer in the realm of of general political analysis. But I think what we can start to do today is to try to figure out what a second trump term will mean for the tech industry because we actually do have some pretty good ideas about what he's going to do in office.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, you wrote a great how about this very subject on election night? And I think that offers us a good road map to kind of talk through some of what you and I expect.

So let me ask you first, Kevin, about maybe one of the most obvious winners of this election, elon mask. Should we play a clip from trumps Victory speech? Let's do that.

Let me to tell. We have a new star. A star is born island.

yes. So obviously, I think this was a huge win for you on musk. He will not only have a the ability to claim that he helped on truck get elected through his millions and millions dollars that he donated to the campaign through his giant, pushed that he made on x to help the trump campaign win, but he is likely to have a position, whether official or unofficial, in the incoming trump administration.

And so he may have influenced server, all kinds of things related to his companies, be able to select his regulators, be able to curry favor with administration in ways big and small. So overall, I think a very good night for land mass. What do you think?

I just think it's great that that guy is finally catching a lucky break.

Yeah, it's a you know, he's had a rough spell.

I think all of that is right, as obviously is a huge win for elon and everything is been trying to do. The thing that I have been trying to think through though, Kevin, is, can elon masco Donald truck stay friends over a long period of time? right? These are two very volatile personalities known for being mercurial, changing their minds often.

And iran has a severe complex. He's gonna want to get all the credit for whatever is about to happen. And so he would not surprise me, even if in the very near future there is some kind of rup shire here, what what do you make of the odds of that, uh, relationship go in the distance?

I mean, I think I fall out is certainly possible. We've seen that happen with downtown p in many people who were part of his first term administration. So yeah, do I think it's possible that elan must can Donald trump fall out somewhere down the line? Um I would say yes. Do I think IT is probable? I think not.

I think most people who have showered on trump do so because they feel like he's done something that's beyond the pale, right? And I think for a lot of tech executives during the first term, I mean, if you remember there were these uh, service advisory boards that trump s set up where a bunch of CEO from various industries would come give him advice. And a lot of those CEO ended up rebelling and stepping off of those boards because his policies became too extreme for them and they were getting a lot of pressure from, among other people, their employees of their companies. Elan muk does not care what his employees, I think, about his support of Donald trump and ah he I think we'll face less pressure than other executives will to sort disavow any policies or or positions that on trump takes because people already know that he's term guy IT is interesting to me because .

if you think of the first sort of rightwing silicon valley billionaire back trump IT was Peter til who continues to have many reasons to be close to to trump um some of which he shares with elan and yet teal backed off you know he didn't get what he wanted out of that first trump administration and know well he didn't actively campaigns inst him. He didn't sort of retreat quietly into the background.

So i'm definitely very curious to see how that relationship plays out a in the months and years ahead. Let's talk about a second thing that is very likely to change here in the coming months, Kevin, and that is the president's posture towards crypto. O what does Donald trump think about crp to one? How's that different from old jobim?

yeah. So we've talked about this too. Downturn p used to be a cyp to skeptic. He said things like he doesn't believe the bitcoin you know should replace the dollar. But that has changed in recent months in part because pro crypto groups have been showering um his campaign with money.

I think it's a pretty clear that the incoming trumpet administration will be much friendly er toward the crypto industry than the by administration a husband or than the Harry administration would have been and uh the crypto industry is rejoicing not only because the Prices of a lot of cyp to coins have been shooting up in the past twenty four hours, but because uh they also see themselves now getting to influence the direction that crypto policy is taken. I think it's pretty obvious that gary gensler, who is the head of the security exchange commission and who has become really public enemy number one for the crypto industry, he will be a replaced. I can't see any scenario in which he stays on during the trump administration, and I am guessing that whoever is brought to replace him will be much more persuadable to take a soft line when IT comes to regulating the cyp to industry.

And so do we think that crypto is poised to have some sort of big come back during the trumpet administration? And like a story that I feel I tell myself that clip to is that it's not that popular outside of financial speculation. Most because it's hard to use and insecure and bad and people don't like IT.

But is IT possible that if a new head of the S. C. C comes along and says crypto o is legal now all of a sudden IT wars back into the limelight.

I think it's absolutely possible because what we've seen is just this cloud of uncertainty that's been hanging over the cypher industry. So there's just spent, I think, a lot of money kind of parked on the sidelines waiting for a change in the administration so they can basically but on cyp to again. And I think what we're likely to see in a trump administration um is just a lot of interest in building eucrates pto products, in building infrastructure, in tying the crypto economy into the the the real money economy in more ways. Uh, IT is going to be a basically A A less fair free for all for the crypto currency industry, which which is what a lot of them have been wanting for many years.

That's right, Kevin. And if cyp du does make that come back, IT will mean one other truly crazy thing, which is that hard fork would actually become a good name for a podcast, which they said would never happen.

It's true we waited out the crypto to winter and um and now we have a good name again.

Kevin, one more twist and crypto story. These prediction markets, we talked about them on the show last week. I was very skeptical that they were telling us anything that novel or surprising or relevant about the electric. Would you say that I have egg on my face a week later?

Uh, yes, I would say are you are, uh, a covered in egg because the prediction markets were vindicated, right? These markets like Polly market, which is a place where you can go place bets in cypher currency on various world of including elections. Um they were giving Donald trump uh H U A higher chance of winning than any of the the polls were.

They were proven to be right. Or at least the people who bet that he would win are seeing those beats payout. Now there are lots of potential reasons that might be, but I think that the effect of the trump win is that prediction markets are here to stay. I think they are going to be seen correctly or not, as a Better source of truth about where the electorate is than traditional polls. And I think that there will now be a lot of people saying, why was I listen the polls when I could have been looking at the prediction markets.

I have a slightly different take here, which is that the group of americans who bet illegally on this election on this prediction markets using crypto represented uh, source of enthusiasm for the trump campaign and maybe we should have just been paying more attention to right? Look at all these people willing to go to the trouble of betting illegally using crypto on these markets that should have told us how much they want to get trump into the office.

Probably in large part to make the crypt holdings were valuable. But yes, I must accept. There is I got my face here. And to my great disappointment, there may be value in these prediction markets.

Let's talk about some of these. No, I want to talk about the guy who made the huge bets on Donald trump on poly market. What happened to this rich french person? As we talked about there was this one trader, this french man named theo, or probably tao, is how they pronounce IT, who bet more than thirty million dollars on market that don't trouble win the election and has now won.

and how much money they went. Kevin.

it's a little unclear exactly how much fio made from his big trump trade but, uh, the wall street journal said that he could almost fifty million dollars in profits as a result of his bet on trump on the market and h that article in the journal also had really interesting details about how he decided to place this big bet.

I think people assume this is just some degenerate gambling lers got too much money and just wants to sort of have some fun gambling on an election. But IT turns out he was actually quite methodical about this. He had this theory that um the the polls in in the U S.

Were not trust for the, and that they would fail to account for the shy trump voter effect and he actually went out and commissioned his own surveys to measure a different method of polling called the neighboring method which instead of asking people who they are planning to vote for, asks survey respondents which candidates they would expect their neighbors to vote for. Basically, the idea being that people might not want to say who they are voting for, but if you ask him who their nights or are voting for, that kind of gives you a flavor of what people they know are planning to do. And so he, uh, came up with this theory that don't strums chances of winning were therefore higher than the markets at the time, though.

Now where was all this french generally during world war two, Kevin?

Well, let just say theo has a good future in sports bedding.

Well, i've curious to get your take on what all of this means for the other big tech in combat, which trump spent much of his first administration fighting against. Of course, IT seems like one of the first things that we saw on wednesday in the aftermath of the election was most of the leaders of of the big tech companies and other billionaires like jeff bazas coming forward to enthusiastically kiss, uh, the ring I guess i'll say a Donald trump yes.

the giant sucking sound that you may hear coming from the vicinity of silicon valley is the uh the furious effort by the ceos of the biggest tech companies to suck up to a Donald truck and his incoming administration. Basically every major tech CEO has already publicly congratulated donal trump. Jeff bazo sent out A A post congratulate late trump on his Victory soon. Or patch mark oker g in a della tim cook, sam altman, men, all of these CEO are raced to be among the first business leaders to congratulate president trump and serve get in his good crisis. That was not surprising to me, but I I think IT is, uh, just a sign of how different the second trump term will .

be from the first here. My question, which tech leader trump congratulations tweet did you think was the most sincere and which did you think was the least sincere?

I mean, I thought the the basis uh one was was early which is out of was surprising to me and in he his drawn a lot of attention in recent weeks for the non endorsement of the washington post, which stayed out of endorsing ing presidential candidates this selection cycle. But IT was not that long ago that jeff BIOS was probably download trumps biggest foo in the business world.

Amazon is currently suing over a first term trump administration uh, decision in which they claim that don trumps personal vendetta inst jeff basis was the reason that they lost out on a ten million dollar cloud contract with the department. So IT was notable. The jeff bazas arrive first to kiss the ring of the incoming administration.

Um my personal favorite of the C. E. O. Endorsements was sooner pitch. I who not only congratulate ata president trump on his, what he called his decisive Victory, but also included a screen shot of google searches, electro al college map, just a little product placement there.

I don't know.

What about you. What did you make of the C, E, O S.

Congratulating trump. T I think that a IT is to be expected. As we've been talking about on the show, everyone feels like there is upside and flattering trumpet. I did note that sam altman, uh, congratulatory tweet seemed a little, a little weak. You know, he wrote in lower case, I wish for his huge success in the job, which sounded like IT had been badly translated out of another language, but I appreciated IT because IT sounded fake in a way that was transparent. And so that hearted me yeah.

he outsource his congratulation to ChatGPT, actually an agent writing that on on his back. But I think these leaders in particular have a lot of reasons to be excited about a trump president scene. One of them I wrote about is just that.

I think for all but one tech company, they are likely to see their anti trust problems either go away completely or to get much Better under a tropper administration. Elan musk, uh is has already said that lacon, the chair of the ftc who has been bringing a lot of these cases, these anti trust cases against the big tech companies would be fired a under a trumpet administration. I expect the trump will also clear out the, uh, people at the justice department who were bringing the cases by that agency against big tech companies. And so with almost every company, I suspect that at least the lawyers at those companies are celebrating this because that means that their job just got a little easier.

And IT speaks to why some of these leaders were not full throated in their support for the Kennedy, because they felt like they were just not getting a lot out of their support for that administration, right? That administration come after them. I was trying to break up their companies. And so now there is hope that maybe that won't be the case, although as you note, that probably won't be true for google since Donald trump was the one who uh, initiated that case during his term. So seems like there can still have some trouble.

So google, I think is the exception here. I think they are going to have a chAllenging next four years under a second trump administration um Donald trump and his allies are a nap c fans of google they think IT is a woakes sensorium liberal silicon valley tech company um in Donald p was in the office when the federal government started trying to a force google to break up um and even as recently as a couple days ago, elon musk and other pro trump conservative were alleging google of trying to swing the election toward democrats with not much in the way of real evidence but a lot of accusations and conspiracy theories and so I think this is going to be a very chAllenging next a few years for google in the anti trust department yeah .

that makes all right. Let's try to do a little lightning round to close IT out what's going .

to happen to tiktok. Now tiktok is saved. I mean, this is one of the big promises that trump made about tech during his campaign down trumps said, uh, many times now that he will he will not allow tiktok to be a to be banned or sold under his watch and so I think if you are tiktok, you are popping champagne. This is good news for you. And interestingly, there is still a law that was passed by congress and signed into law by president biden says that h tiktok has until generate sixth of twenty twenty five to uh be diverted by bite, dance or else face a nationwide ban and get pulled out of the APP stores that may still technically go into effect president trump, uh, even when he does take office, will not be able to unatoned override that or recent that law, but he can just choose not to enforce and he can direct prosecutors not to go after the company. So I expect that tiktok bacon has truly been saved him.

All right. And how about A I Kevin, what does this mean for A I regulation?

I want to ask you about this too, because this one is a little more complicated. I think the the first gut reaction that I had was that this conflict ory is a win for the acceleration ist wing of the AI movement, the people like mark and jesson, who want this technology to be able to move as quickly as you can, who don't want any kind of regulation or road block standing in the way of the big eye companies.

Trump has also said that he would repeal the by administration executive order on A I. So I think that's a signal that this administration will regulate A I A lot less then a hair administration would have, or then the by administration has. So that that was my gut reaction. What was your gut reaction?

I think that was my reaction as well. That is certainly what all of the right wing trump backyard and silicon value are telling themselves. But we can never understand me just how unpredictable trump is and how often he changes his mind, right? And so you, is there a world where trump's des that AI is to woke and he hates IT now, is there a world where he says hate is too powerful?

I I meet, actually intervene and prevent this technology from being built in a certain wait, like I can see many outcomes that would not actually be favorable to either silicon valley altogether or some of these individual companies within silicon valley. But still, I do expect at least, and let's call the first year of the next administration, that, yes, IT is going to be everyone moving very, very quickly. Yes, all right.

Well, that about does IT for that subject but there was one more thing that I wanted to bring up, Kevin and and get thoughts about um i've been thinking about how silicon valley and trump willer will not be working together in the years ahead and sort of how all of this came about. And I think a good explanation for how we got to this point is that one, Donald trump started to take over the republican party. The former elites in the republican party all started going away, right? Either because they didn't like him, they worked for him.

And how about experience? Whatever IT was. And I create this power vacuum. And the first person, I think, who noticed that was Peter teel, who was characteristically pressure and got in there and supported trump in his first Victory.

But then in the aftermath of him losing more elites who used to surround Donald trump again left, you know, some of some who had worked with him in administration, they again had terrible experiences. And so more right wing billionaire rs and silicon valley noticed this. They saw that power vacuum again, and they said, how we can get in there, and we can surround this guy with ourselves and we can advance our own ideas.

And so now you have David sacks, keep a boy you from off all around him in his ear. My question is, do we think that that, Alice, can this be a kind of steady state? Or will the same thing happen to these guys that happen to all the other elites around Donald trump over the past, you know, decade, which is one by one, they all just kind of god pushed out, gave up, left in disgust. What what do you think?

I mean, I think the answer may differ depending on who were talking about. I think if you're someone like David sax or Peter til at these people who are sort of you know long time parties an ideology, this was not their first election cycle supporting republicans um I think that they are going to feel like they have access to this president.

They have influence over this president and they are not going to want to screw that up in any way and so I think they will be totally devoted to to him in his agenda. Uh, I I can't really imagine anything that would cause them to sort of lose faith in him or or turn on him. I think if you are a just A A CEO or a leader of a big tech company, if you're SAT adella, if your tim cook, if your mark oker burn, I think, baby, there is a kind of theoretical red lying that if the trump crosses IT, you feel morally, or at least practically obligated to say something about IT.

I think at that point I can totally see those relationships for actually ing. We know the Donald trump does not like people standing up to him or opposing him and um if he feels like people are turning on him, he turns right back on them. so. I think those are the relationships that I think are are tenuous under a trumpet administration. But the people who are in his corner, who bankrolled his presidential campaign this time, who were throwing fund raisers and and hosting events with him and appearing on stage at as rallies, I think those people are in the tank for the next four years.

Well, what do you think? I don't know. I I used to think that mike pence would vote for Donald trump in this election. Any didn't.

Something that I i've also been thinking a lot about is just how uncertain and unpredictable ball the data day Operations of a large technology company are about to become. Again, this is not hypotheses. Tics know that during the first trump term, he would be issuing declarations at all hours of the night on twitter.

People, we're having to constantly figure out how to navigate this like very chaotic Operating environment. It's a really hard way to run a business. And IT resulted in a lot of chAllenges that I don't think anyone could have seen coming.

I mean, just one example was like the the delete uber thing that happened during the first trump term as a result of his muslim ban. When people wanted to go to their airports to protest that policy decision, they try to take uber. Uber head search pricing turned on IT, turned into this big scandal that turned a lot of people off of uber and essentially created an opportunity for lift.

Now that was not something that i'm sure travel's colonic are the people who are running uber at the time thought was a likely outcome of a tropical administration. They probably just thought, oh, this guys of republican and he's gona cut taxes and regulations and it's going to be easier for us. I think a lot of those curve balls are possible in such a volatile administration. And so I hope in addition to packing up there congratulations messages to down trump today, I hope these executives are doing some scenario planning about how crazy things could get and either going to Operate their businesses in that kind of environment.

very interesting. When we come back, we picked the wrong hill to die on, but the right hill to talk to cash.

My hill joins us to talk about the week SHE spent letting A I run her life.

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You're taking a late afternoon girl from outfits to sports highlights to wedding picks on new york times, cooking post stops you in your tracks the most delectable ragu dish you've ever seen. Sadly, life gets in the way the grocery ines, the cars in the shop that show is on. But on the recipe you see a button that changes everything.

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Well, casey eye, for one, uh, would appreciate a pilot kenser after that last segment, uh, that has nothing to do with politics to the election. And luckily we have one courtesy of mi colleague cashmere hill.

Yes, SHE recently did an experiment with artificial intelligence that is right up our ally cabin.

Yes, the story that he wrote is called, I took a decision holiday and put A I in charge of my life, basically for a week. SHE turned over all decision making in her life, over to generate A I, including what to eat, what to wear, her schedule, her new haircut, everything. And, uh, what came out of this was just a really interesting look at what these tools can do for us and with us right now where they might be helpful in going about daily day lives and where they might not be so helpful. So let's bring in cash to tell us all about her experiment and what you learned.

Cash hill, welcome back to hard work. Great to be here. So how do you set up this experiment? How are you actually going about like out trying to have to make decisions for you where you just serve nearing your day out? These chat points are like just tell us about how the experiment .

actually worked so um I doesn't research like what are the tools I could use and I made this success ell stretchy of all the many apps in products out there that are touting internatio eye like turning A A parent, generate A I for fashion, generate A I for remodeling. And I made this like big list of all these different apps. I've downloaded them and I bought meta ban glasses and I thought I would use all these different products. But at the end of the day, I just mostly ended up using chat G B T because I was the best and the most flexible, basically ChatGPT in cloud or the the winners of all the assistance .

I tried and give us a flavor of some of the kinds of decisions that you outsource.

So I did this for a week and I started with, um tell us what to buy this week like what crude should we have, plan our meals ah, what I do with my kids, where should we go on the vacation? How should I cut my hair? Uh, what color should I paint my office? Something i've been wanting to do for about two years now.

And I was like, stuck because I couldn't decide on the new color. So I had a eye decide for me. But I was trying to like, really use IT in all, always and all part of my day.

I mean, what's interesting about this experiment to me is obviously like it's a great stunt and and shows some of what this technology is capable of uh and not capable of today. But and also I mean people in A I are very convinced that very shortly we will all have A I agents going around doing things on her behalf and know right now the way you set up this experiment, you still had to kind of like execute the things know, I can tell you which groceries to buy, but I could actually go out and buy them for you, but pretty soon day I will be able to do that. And so it's just a preview of where the AI agents are going .

yeah right now i'm kind of the agent of the A I like it's telling me what to do, but ah IT definitely was easy to imagine this becoming much more independent um what was kind of funny to me as when I was interviewing experts about this, including people at you know OpenAI and at anthropic, they seemed like cut a horrified that I would put my life in my family's life in the hands of their chapt which I just thought was interesting that I think like that's what they're trying to build you know ah towards this general intelligence in they're like really you did that cash.

How did your family respond to outsourcing your life to A I for a week?

IT all started with my husband wanted OK ago golfing with a friend. And I was like, well, okay, let me, let me ask the eyes assistance and they said, yes and so is like, great. This is good for me.

I was, I was actually really funny. They're like it's good for your relationship uh, to support you know your partners interest. Um my daughter really liked advanced voice mode from ChatGPT, which is they are kind of her like assistant. They had a lot of fun with IT.

If i'll very futuristic to them, they could ask IT endless questions, like my four year old was asking IT, why do trees have leaves? Why do birds fly? Why do computers have screens? And just on and on and on, you know, IT IT ever just like go away like a parent might do um or after could be answering your question um so they really liked that.

They thought I should have a name and their first suggestion was captain in popped um and they are making all these other similar kinds of suggestions and then at chime drinks that listens while talking and is how about Spark? You know it's it's creative fun, just like your energy. And so IT became Spark into this day. My daughters are asking to talk to Sparks. They want Sparks on the family ipads.

They can keep talking to IT. Ww, so did you give this chat bottle Spark um any information about yourself? Like because part of the appeal of these tools, as they can sort of get to know you over time, theoretically you can give them of access to data, they can kind of store things about you and serve long term memory. Did where you did you feel any point like this? A I was starting to know you and anticipate what kinds of decisions you might make.

So I tried to approach this very much like a basic user like somebody has not been following things would do IT. So um I I really just came to these tools like a Normal consumer wood and I said, hey, i'm a journalist doing an experiment of outsourcing on my decision making to A I will you help me um at least with the the chat pot and they also yes, except for cloud which is said that a bad idea you shouldn't give A I that much control over your life um I don't really want to help you with this so I would still answer my questions when I post them um and then other not IT was just kind of learning about us over time and I did started know things um like I would know my daughter's name.

I learned to my nephews name IT IT figured out we didn't eat sugar during the week like IT started just realizing things about me and at one point I asked IT, like, tell me about kashmir hill. And I said, you know, she's a technology journalist. He likes doing first person experience.

Right now. She's doing the experiment where she's living with generate A I and outsourcing her decision making to IT. And I kind of freaked out, and I had my husband to ask the same questions.

I was like cathos leaked out into what's known about me and he said, no. But the the program had figured out that I was kashmir hill. Even I had not said that. So that was that was kind of a surprise to me.

One of the things your story gets that is that these systems often steer. You told the the medium or the average outcome, right? You I think you sort of right that they they risk flattening us out at the same time. There are a lot of task I really bad at, and if I could be brought up to the media easily like that would be great for me. So good, as you did this experiment, was this sort of relentless push toward the average, where the moments where IT was particularly good for you, and for their moments where I was .

particularly annoying, I started feeling very boring by the end of the week. I just feel like all of my decisions were so basic and so average. You know, I had to decide my haircut and IT shows, uh, kind of you, I can see that, but like a textured bob is just like a really basic haircut. And I was talking to AManda esco, philosopher anthropic. And SHE was like that A I would never choose my haircut. And he had this really cool, like baby bings, and like a wallet, my clothes, like A I hated on my clothes and I told me to go to j crew and buy this like take top in these big genes um that I I shared the photo of the outfit with my colleagues here at the times and they were just like um you look like you bought the manic inset like IT just was was just he was very fanning um and the kind of overall effect was that IT turned me into a basic bee yeah that's interesting.

I most wonder if there is going na have to be a setting at some point where you can say, like, do not make me this statistical average if everyone in my demographic cohorn like, let's break out a little bit here.

wait. So gonna tell ChatGPT like h before you answer, you should know that i'm cool.

Yeah, don't make me look like one of those lame dad. Make me and cool dad.

please make me interesting.

Yeah well, when I can help with that, IT will truly be A I, A G I. Um so talk about some other ways that you were able to have A I act on your behalf.

Well, I I tried kind of like creating IT A I self. So I closed my voice using eleven labs and i'm reading Harry potter to my kids. And so it's kind of excited about this because we're in book for and book for is so long, the chapters are so long and I like, this is great. I'll have my AI voice you read here you poor to my kids but I like immediately got flag for copyright violation. Um I I created .

a um um video avatar .

of myself uh using synthesise a where I just read a script into my laptop camera. I made this you know fairly Vincent avatar of me and um the personally talked you there said, you know you you can have IT like create tiktok for you. You can create messages for you.

I have to do is give you a PDF of your article and upload IT. And I was like, this is great. I'm terrible at tiktok.

Not good. Sorry that everyone watching youtube, but I am not good to video. And I was really excited that this would just make tiktok for me.

And then I was, I was a horrible, I like, I like crazy. I'm crazy eyes. I got, I don't know, one hundred years, like I did.

I didn't work. I used to send a message to my mom and he was, I M so A I being me, didn't go down that well. I will say i've seen a lot .

of readers on tiktok who have crazy eyes, and that seems to go really well for them. So you might just want to try making a few more.

make the eyes crazier this time.

Yeah, so you've .

done this experiment. Now you you've written about IT. Do you think this is going to be something that you do long term? Are there more kinds of decisions or daily activities that you are planning to turn over the ai?

I am honestly the reason I did this as I was very curious about order of A I and I just hadn't use IT that much and um you know in billions of dollars on this were reviving our energy grid basically to support further training and use of tender D I and I was just wondering, like how much is gonna help us? How was gonna change society? How was I going to change us? And I came away from the week being like me, like he was fine, he was helpful in certain scenario. Um I think the way that i'll keep using IT is taking photos of problems around my house in getting advice for what to do. Um you know I think it's like a really, really powerful and more efficient google search.

Can I make a suggestion?

yes.

I would be curious if, uh, going forward, you try to use these gena I tools a little bit more like a coach then, uh, an executive. So if there is like a skill that you're learning or something that your working on in your life, these general chap bots can be these journals that talk back to you. Over the past few weeks, i've been played around with meditating, something that I am just an other novice at.

And while I haven't been giving over a decision making authority to claude, which is what i've been using, I have been getting all sorts of ideas from IT. And then like when something goes wrong, i'm like, this thing went wrong, it's I, oh, you might want to try this. Or if something goes right there, like, great, here's how you can build on that. And so if I am finding that this chatbot is actually like giving me this incredible meditation coach experience that still let me do all the decision making, but manages to fill in a lot of blanks. Ry.

yeah, I thought to this one. A, I kind of influence her type. And he said that he uses IT as a business coach.

And he tells IT like, I want you, I want to tell you about my business and I want you to apply the eighty twenty four to IT, and you tell me what I should be doing. And I can see how that can be useful. I guess, just in my career, your covering technology tools.

I do think that we once we kind of adopt a new technology, we do tend to get overly reliant on IT like google maps means that you can go anywhere in the world and figure how to get around, but you don't know how to get around your own neighborhood more. Um in a google search we kind of search tools. We've like the new outsource kind of memory, in fact, recall to the search engine.

And so part of what I did this experiment was, yeah exaggerating a bit like at what point will we stop making decisions on our own because we assume that these tools are Better than us or know us Better or have access to more information, which they certainly deal. And so I kind of playing around with that um but I will take your advice, casey. Um maybe i'll have a coach me to be, I don't know a Better, more interesting parent or I don't know how to figure out what I need help with.

I mean, your experiment really highlighted something that i've been thinking a lot about, which is the value of taste in a world with lots of AI assistance running around doing various task color behalf IT. Just strikes me from reading what you wrote that the the sort of flattening effect is, is just about taste.

It's about like letting A A machine do things, not just because they're annoying tasks that you have to do, but really things that go to the core of like your personality, your values, your your, you know, the choices about how you live your life. And I worry to the people are going to outsource not only their their data day tasks to A I, but also their taste. And I think that it's going to be a people with a distinctive personal taste who know what they like and know what to ask these eyes to do for them are going to just have A A big leg up on people who just say, well, i'll just go with whatever the A I says.

Well, Kevin, what does that mean for you as a person with no.

Yeah, i'm scared, but you guys will be fine.

No, I just I do think they were useful tools and um i'll continue to use them. But yeah, I don't I don't think all out force my decision making a anymore. But IT didn't do a bad job like nothing went terribly wrong during the week you have. They made basically good decisions for me. I encountered a few illustrations um but not on anything major are .

the kinds of things you encounter.

The funniest thing, the most lasting hallucination, is that my daughter asked IT, what's the difference between your middle finger up in your middle finger with your sum up? And IT said, the middle finger alone is a rude gesture. Middle finger combined with the thumb is a friendly gesture. That means chill out. So my daughter and joyce telling me to chill out all the time, now listed that now.

did the to the A S ever tried to break up your marriage? Because that is something that they have been known to do on occasion.

No, he was. He told me to be nice to my mother law. And generally, I said, I think made me a Better wife. The I the interesting about thing about the A I is that I did feel like I was built in, that I wanted to improve me, like I felt little bit like a self improvement tool. And so I was time me to dress up at night like we are a little bit of make up. So I kind of felt I was my best self in a way, I mei was going to yoga everyday, cooking meals like, I think my husband like me that a lot that week. And IT wasn't telling me to break up .

with him more. And you became the A I turned you into the the apple executive in every a new iphone launch. Just constantly, you know, surfing or preparing a healthy meal uh in in their kitchen or doing some remodelling on their beautiful house. Yeah I feel like .

when these companies scrape the web that kind of over index unlike wellness influences or something because that felt like the life was leading. I mean.

the gender dynamic there is interesting though, right? Like presumably these chapters ts aren't telling husbands to like dress up for their wives when they get home and make sure that, you know, their nails are well.

groom hair looks good. I know if that my husband do this experiment and see what .

that has been to kay say, I thought that's why you dress up for the show every week because I told you to look good for me.

I try to listen for you because I think that's what you would want for me Kevin.

okay. Well, I appreciate that. Um i've just been using this stuff for you almost two years at this point and so I I know it's it's become like a first line activity for me.

Like when I presented with the situation where I have have to make a decision, I almost instinctively go to A I now so like it's it's an open enrollment this week at the new york times company. And so I was trying to choose you. Or do I get vision insurance as IT? So do this dental plan or this dental plan.

And so I just found myself almost instinctively, like just uploading all of the the documents about all these plans to an eye programme and asking until I help me think through this. And obviously, there are places where these tools should not be used. But for these kind of daily tasks and just things that pop into your head, you want on the answer to, I have them, them incredibly useful.

I mean, IT does feel to me like these are the kinds of questions we would have asked google before. Like should I get vision insurance? Um what's the best way to meditate? Like uh, give me good resources for working out and yeah I just think that these assistance work really well for this kind searches and just the ability that you can give so much more that you can upload our health play document. Um yeah, I think it's really powerful in in in those cases.

You know I think that is is that you're right. These are just next generation google searches. With google searches, there was always a point of friction though, which is you would have A A point of curiosity, but you would know that in order to get the answer you wanted, for the most part, you we're going to have to read another web page, made me two or three way pages, the chat, whats really lower that friction.

You know, I was driving on the freeway yesterday, and I saw in a building for easter seals. And I remember that that was a charity. But I could not, for the life of me, remember, how do they, they get their named easter seals? I just popped up at a claude, and I just typed to easter seals, name, origin and boom, I had IT instantly.

I was on my way to a funeral today. I was a catholic mess. I was like, what are all the things that actually happened during a catholic mass?

I opened that voice mode on ChatGPT, and my phone and IT taught us all of that. Again, all that information was on google to be found. But we knew that with these chat pots, we would just get the answer right away. And so you wind up making more searches, and I think you wind up being more satisfied with the result.

I want to pose a question to both of you. I think we all assume that A I will continue to sort of get Better over time. But I wonder if in this one specific use case of like having A I advise you on decisions data day, like IT might actually not get Better and know and you might actually get worse in part because I think a pretty good bet that as companies realized, oh, people are basing their decisions about what groceries to buy, what close to buy, a, you know, where to go to dinner on, what these chat botts say. They will start to have already started to, in some cases, try to serve game system to make IT so that their restaurant, their clothing brand, pops up before their competitors. And so what we will see over time is that just in the way that google search got sort of infiltrated by all of these sponsored links and results, we will start to see the AI steering us in directions that reflect not what they actually think we want, but what some advertiser has paid them to say.

Yeah, I was thinking about this because I had listened making to the story, but I had the assistance aside where we went for a family vacation, and they sent us to a nearby town in a really, really, really expensive hotel. And when I was there, we ran in somebody we knew. And they are like, wow, why did they send you there? Like, that's the fancy.

As total town is trying to figure, talk to some researchers who have looked this kind of search engine, they called generation engine optimization ation, and the ability to affect what these chatbot kind of recommending. And I said he did this like hotel, manage to make its way into the top. And I was like, no, they just have good reviews.

But but yeah, I mean, part of why i've found these more helpful than a google search is that, yeah, google search is a bit broken. And I do wonder if now if more people start using these, if they'll be a cut of corruption of the answer you get that won't feel as pure or they can counter program against that. But the researchers I talked to, they did some research and they were able to manipulate the answers that some of the bots are giving.

I think it's definitely gonna en. But I would note that we do have pretty powerful open source models and that was not really true in the gool air. There wasn't really powerful open source search and that you could use advertising. Um and I wonder if that will be a kind of counterbaLance against the worst impulses of some of these companies, just knowing that if they really loaded down there are chat bots with ads, a people would have alternatives.

All right. Well, cash, thanks so much for coming on. Really, uh, interesting experiment and i'm glad to have the the organic you back.

Get to be back.

Want to come back, pass the hat. Sound of a hat. GPT.

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We'd like to try to end today's episode on a high note. And from time to time, when a number of strange stories accumulate in the world of technology in the future, we like to run through them in a when we call hat GPT.

what's.

Hat GPT is, of course, the segment on our show where we draw stories out of a hat and riff on them for a bit. And when one of us gets bored of the other, we say, stop generating.

Let's do IT. Casey, since I am in the studio and you are not, would you like me to pull the slips out of the baseball hat GPT hat or the bucket hat p hat?

You know, this feels like a bucket hat kind of day.

Okay, so here's the the hat GPT bucket hat. I'm going to throw our slips in here. I will rustle them around in front of the microphones so we get that nice little sound effect there. And I will pull out the first slip. This one is from four or four media IT is called fired employee allegedly hacked disney world's menu system to alter peanut allergy information.

This is a story about a disgruntled former disney employee who allegedly hacked the software used at what disney world's restaurants and then changed the menus to say that foods that had peanuts in them were safe for people with allergies, added profit menus and at one point changed all the thoughts on the menus to windings. This, of course, was, uh, a sign that something had gone wrong and, uh, the employee who was fired in june has denied wrongdoing and claims that disney is trying to frame him. Casey, what do you make of the story?

Well, Kevin, I hate to decide with management, but in this case, IT does seem like they were justified in firing this employee.

Yeah, no one was was injured or harmed, according to his lawyer, by these menu alterations. No one like had a peanut allergy and died as a result of this. Yeah, you should not do this on your way out the door at your company. Do not try to kill people, uh, by changing the menu.

Yeah also the food disney is dangerous enough without introducing the potential risk of a fatal peanut allergy into IT.

So come now, I will say that I think .

that it's funny that he changed the thought to windings. And if he had stopped there, I would support his immediate reinstatement into whatever job he was doing for the company.

Yes, I was a big fan of wingdings during the the heyday of wingdings. H this was a font freney of you humors, who may be listening. That was basically the the first, a sort of instantiation of emogene basically have fond where when you would type letters they would turn into stumbles on the screen, making them totally unreliable. Um but I enjoys using IT from time time or you a big winky.

I was because I love to make little like newsletters and like, I know I did like this top publishing they called IT back in the day. yeah. Before clip IT was widespread. Windings was the easiest way to like put a bomb into a document because there was a great sort of bomb icon in the windings character set.

Wow well um I don't even really want to ask what you are doing putting bombs into documents as a kid um but but yeah wingdings was for you are IT stopped generating you know there's .

a great hip hop lar at work your moms I dropped bombs that's basically the spirit in which I use that winding if you were curious okay.

well, you just landed on the new fly list. Will you read the next one?

I would be happy to metas plan for nuclear powered A I data center thwarted by rare bees. This from the financial times, zakariya had planned t to strike a deal with an existing nuclear power plant Operator to provide emissions free electricity for a new data center, supporting his A, I ambitions. However, the potential deal faced multiple complications, including environmental and regulatory chAllenges, the resources said. The discovery of the rare b species on a location next to the plant where the data center was to be built would have complicated the project, zuker berg told a metal all hands meeting last week. So Kevin, what do you make of rare bees forwarding our nuclear power ambitions?

It's just so funny, like there are so many things that could go wrong with a nuclear powered AI data center. The thing that actually ends up forwarding the project is that during the environmental review review, they found this rare species of bees. First of all, I didn't know there were species of bees.

I thought there was kind of like one b maybe two. You know there's a fuzzy ones then they're like the the small ones. But I didn't know that we were like harboring a whole lost ecosystem of bees that could be made extinct.

But anyway, uh, this is a you know a classic, uh, for example, of how one of the biggest barriers to building anything in this country, not just data centers, but all kinds of housing and infrastructure, are these sort one thousand nine and seventy era environmental regulations, where before you build, you know a new building, you have to go to a multi a year environmental impact study. The serie movement has been trying to change these laws to explain this process to make IT possible to build more things um faster. But this kind of environmental review sometimes does turn up things like rare bees. And when that happens, when you're trying to build a new data center powered by nuclear energy and sometimes puts range in your plans. So ah you know we talk a lot about A G I, but I think it's time to start talking .

about A B I yeah will definitely be talking a lot about A B I going forward. Here's why it's interest to me, Kevin. You know IT seems like for the past decade or so, regulators around the world of b and asking themselves one question, how do we regulate mark, zr, berg and ba? nothing.

We've tried stick until we found the bees. And so IT raises the question, as we try to sort to bring these tech giants under control, what role can these bees play in that? Because IT seems like they can be quite effective, because a government literally just had to mark ekberg that he Better mined his bees wax.

That's true. And IT makes me think that if you're like a person who who wants to stop A I, if you're one of these like sort of A I safety groups that thinks we should be pausing all a AI development, you might actually just wanna set up a little hive for the bees.

All right, stop us. Stop us.

Okay, next up, oh, this is a great one. This one is titled an interview with a dead luminary exposes the pitfalls of A I. This was written in the new york times by Andrew higgins recently.

This is a story about a radio station in poland that fired its on air talent and brought in A I I generated presenters to host shows. Uh, this was a promising experiment that ended very badly after one of the AI presenters held an interview with a dead polish poet, a nobel lawyer who died in twenty twelve. H, this interview was not a hit with fans of this poet who complained to the station. Uh, they have since said that they are going to stop using these AI generated hosts and, uh, find other ways to appeal to new audiences. So casey, have you ever listened to an interview with a dead person conducted on a radio station using A I?

No, but I did go to great moments with mr. Link and a disney. And do you remember this one, Kevin? No, I never went to this. So this was just something, this was an attraction at disney.

At one of the worst ones, i'll say that when you would sit in what they call the hole president, and you would just sort of listen to these animals trones presidents telling you little bit about their lives function, I don't see very much different between what was happening in disneyland and what was happening on this radio station. I understand that, you know, maybe the poet wouldn't have wanted their voice to be used this way. And of their family as feelings about that.

That's completely fine. But let's face that a lot of people are doing exactly what you described with notebook L M. Already as we've discussed on this show. And i'm not quite sure why this will make up such a cause. The leg in poland to you.

I think it's probably more of the what they're reacting to is both the sort of interview with the dead poet at which, you know great movie title, dead poet society have someone should use that. But also I think they're reacting to the kind of labor angle here, which is that this radio station decided that they could fire its its human host and replace them all with A I and intended badly. And I think there will always be people who are interested in hearing that kind of story about A I screwing up after it's brought in to essentially .

replace humans totally and on that front i'm quite sympathetic um although man, as we discussed on the show, some of those no put alpa for and i'd bet they are gonna get Better. So uh you know podcasts or radio percent whatever you want to call IT by being in danger species, right?

Stop generating. What's the next one?

The next one? Oh, this one. This one is short, sweet. Have an apple intelligence. Goes live with IOS eighteen point one update. And I experienced basically exclusively through these summaries of my notifications. And Kevin, i've got to know, how are you finding apple intelligence so far?

So i've been using apple intelligence, uh, in beta for a couple of weeks now. And yeah mostly I am noticing these these A I written summaries of my text threads, which are I have not gotten any like hilariously bad ones yet. They're mostly just kind of like bad in a boring way. But what about you?

Well, i'm pulling up why that I can read to you because I was so perfect. Let me see this year. So so I just installed IT. And, you know, one of my big group chats that, I mean, that goes crazy all day long. I pick up my phone after a meeting, and the apple intelligence summary said, important message shared website link provided.

And I thought, wasn't we do before you are here? Apple intelligence, it's so funny to me because they took the actual information, like what is the link to the website and IT submarine zed IT in a way that meant that I now have to click another step to fight out what is said. So just truly a perfect example of A I taking something that already work totally fine and making IT worse for only one reason, which is to convince apple shareholder that tim cook has an A I plan.

Yeah, it's amazing. I me this becoming a total meme in culture like these these notification summaries.

Can I tell you how I knew that the election was not going to errors this way? how? So I was at the visitor, my uncle, on tuesday night, and I happened to gLance down at my watch, which was on do r but you know, I just want to see you what what information I could clean.

And apple intelligence had offered the following summary of attacks in my group chat. And that summary was as follows. M, dma purchase considered. And I thought, I don't think come is gonna in this one.

That's the new needle. That's how you know how things are going.

That's the new needle. Although IT is often taken in a pillow form, anyway, stop generating.

Next up. The vatican's enemy mascot is now an AI porn sensation. This is another one from four of four media. Um last week the vatican an unveiled luci, a japanese style cartoon character that will serve as the catholic churches mascot for its upcoming jubilation as well as IT expo twenty twenty five in a soccer japan up.

The designer of this uh japanese style mascot said that he hoped IT would represent the sentiments that resonate in the hearts of the Younger generations and as soon as this uh enemy mascot made IT onto the internet, uh, A I to generate started creating, uh, A I generated porn using this enemy mascot. So IT has now been corrupted as a result of being put on the internet. Casey, what do you make this story?

So before this story came out, a friend of mine in a group chat and said, hey, have you guys seen this new vatican, an maScotte character? She's so cute. And another friend said, I hate to say that, but I worried someone is gonna to make part of this.

And I said, I bet IT already exists. And another friend went on a four chain, and guess what I did. So there is a famous rule on the internet called rural thirty four.

That rule is that a, if you can think of IT, there is part of IT. And unfortunately, IT was proved true again in the case of luck. And what are the vat can do about that? I have an idea.

When your mascot was a guide named jesus, Chris IT seemed like he did just fine for the past two thousand years. I don't know why we're break into a new girl. Sweet art. No will .

look what happened to jesus. When A, I had his way with him.

he turned in the shrimp. Jesus, hey, let me tell you through a lot worse than that, Kevin. There's an old book about why we can't .

have nice things. I just not like the catholic church has been weirdly in front of a lot of generating A I stuff like remember the pope coat ah you know that was the first of convincing deep fake. Now they've got this animate scandal. So I just think the catholic church should probably take a break from a ee for a while.

I grew with that. Well, casey.

a plum of White smoke just came out of my microphone, which I think means either that we've elected a new pope or that we're done playing hat G.

P, T, I, I, T.

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